[Madness]

It's on the to-buy list .

[Royce]

I am just going to bother you with another idea:)

It is from a computational neuroscientist named Jean-Pierre Rospars. He wrote a paper in Acta Astronautica, the journal
of the international Acadamy of Astronautics in 2010.

Rospars argues that the evolution of intelligence in the universe, far from being a rare and contingent event, is structurally
built into the constraints of physics, chemistry, and biology. The fact that living creatures exhibit predictable limits on body size, among many other functions, suggest there are universal "laws" that order evolution of intelligence; and human cultural evolution is an emergent and inevitable consequense of this process. According to this theory, there could well be more complex intelligent species than ours endowed with far more complex brains. Furthermore, we could be separated from these civilizations not so much by spatial distances but by temporal and cognitive distances. Such alien intelligences may be vastly older than our species , and so much more advanced in their cognitive evolution that not only are we incapable of communicating with them, we are incapable of recognizing them.

This sheds some new light(at least for me) about alien interactions while tripping. This is speculative of course, but a fun thought, that aliens try to contact us by seeding the earth with psychedelics so that after millions of years of evolution our nervous systems will discover their existence. Not by picking up radio signals, but by evolving intelligence through digestion of various substances:).

[Madness]

Lol - it's a neat idea, for sure.

And as a general rule, changes in even simple states, not mediated by exogenous (produced outside the body) chemicals, can have drastic effects on our overall perception - implied in metaphors like "rose-coloured glasses," but founded in actual evidential research.

So, of course, drugs states are one of any number of complex configurations, mental states, which might enable you to perceive information that you couldn't possibly have in your previous experiential state (and I'm associating this with moment-to-moment, simple perceptual biases, which can be mediated by things like mood, diet, martial (kinetic) activity, thought states).

To the extent you are talking about? I'm not sure. Certainly, that kind of conception is a starting place for McKenna's "tuning metaphor," where our mental states are like the frequencies on a radio receiver - possible, maybe, but how is this knowledge made of practical use?

As to Rospars paper in particular; I will find it and read it. However, I think my criticism will stand. It's my concern that knowledge be made of actual use. If Rospars thought it possible to somehow discern and work towards these cognitive thresholds, I might be more sympathetic to his work, but even well-founded philosophy (and by generalization this is philosophy) bothers me with its hypocrisy - it could be mediating something, rather than narrating. But another thread.

[Royce]

To the extent you are talking about? I'm not sure. Certainly, that kind of conception is a starting place for McKenna's "tuning metaphor," where our mental states are like the frequencies on a radio receiver - possible, maybe, but how is this knowledge made of practical use?

This knowledge has no practical use whatsoever......yet:) This is just people with fascinating ideas, and Terences intent with this experiment is something you just have to read for yourself. That man was quite ambitious I would say.

As to Rospars paper in particular; I will find it and read it. However, I think my criticism will stand. It's my concern that knowledge be made of actual use. If Rospars thought it possible to somehow discern and work towards these cognitive thresholds, I might be more sympathetic to his work, but even well-founded philosophy (and by generalization this is philosophy) bothers me with its hypocrisy - it could be mediating something, rather than narrating. But another thread.

Yes this is definitely philosophy, but the actual effects of these substances are not. Describing these effects and insights makes it a philosophical discussion, but the experience in it self is what it is. I am not sure if Rospar even has a
psychedelic view in his paper, it was Dennis who mentioned his ideas and mixed it up with his own theories.

[Madness]

This knowledge has no practical use whatsoever......yet:) This is just people with fascinating ideas, and Terences intent with this experiment is something you just have to read for yourself. That man was quite ambitious I would say.

They are fascinating ideas - but in seriousness (and I mean this as an evaluation, I can still get stoned on ideas) these ideas are either practical or they are not.

We can either access greater-than-human knowledge by "tuning" ourselves with drugs or "Insert Experience-Whatever Here," OR we can't because there is no greater-than-human knowledge waiting around for the properly "tuned" receptors.

Actually using my time - more so than entertaining this thought experiment - to try and do something actionable with it... Probably not.

Yes this is definitely philosophy, but the actual effects of these substances are not. Describing these effects and insights makes it a philosophical discussion, but the experience in it self is what it is. I am not sure if Rospar even has a
psychedelic view in his paper, it was Dennis who mentioned his ideas and mixed it up with his own theories.

Lol - "the experience in it self is" not "what it is."

And "Rospars argues that the evolution of intelligence in the universe, far from being a rare and contingent event, is structurally
built into the constraints of physics, chemistry, and biology," which seems to be Rospars position specifically, is simply not verifiable at the moment - therefore philosophy.

Maybe you could be more clear in your second quotation that I've used, Royce? Specifically: "Yes this is definitely philosophy, but the actual effects of these substances are not. Describing these effects and insights makes it a philosophical discussion, but the experience in it self is what it is."

[jamesA01]

...OR we can't because there is no greater-than-human knowledge waiting around for the properly "tuned" receptors.

Bingo

[Royce]

Well this is what can happen when I try to explain something that sounds understandable in my own language, but when
I look at my previous post now, it makes little sense:) Sorry about that, I can give it another go.

As far as I know there are two alternatives regarding what these experiences are. Either you actually plunge into other
dimensions, encounter meetings with entities and whatnot. They give you insights that can help you in your daily life(I have experienced this first hand). I can say that it honestly made me a better person. This is to me a fact. These substances had an effect on many levels on my psyche. Does that mean that everything about that experience is "real"?
I do not know.
The second alternative is that my brain created this experience through chemical reactions and stimuli. To me it does not
really matter which is true, because what I experienced and what it did is what matters.

When I try to explain this it tends to end up as philosophical rants, because it is so hard to use language to explain this
to people who have not had a similar experience. So what I tried to say in my previous post, is that I think that when people try to describe an experience like this with abstract language, it becomes philosophical speculation immediately, even though when you had the experience it felt as real and understandable as food or water.

God, I wish I could take this in Norwegian Madness, because this is something I have a real passion for, but I can see that it is hard for me to make any sense. Well, not much to do about that:)


..................and when I see this post now after some sleep, I see that I still do not make sense and I look like I belong on a mental institution:)
Maybe the lesson is stay away from strong and potent plants that twist your perspective towards unexplainable conclusions:) I do get in my own way
every now and again, and I can see that I do not entirely agree with my own statements. I think when you gradually experience that the things you
take for granted in life is just conditioning, layers upon layers of conditioning, from you were born up til the present moment, it does "something" to you. You create everything in life through what you say and what you do(your actions). Then you realize that if that is the case, then why listen to anybody else?, why would you live a life that is not your own favorite creation? It took me awhile to digest this because the layers of conditioning are
so subtle and done over such a long time. This understanding of the power of language(how it literally creates the world we live in) made me much more aware of that you should pay attention to what you say, and how you say it, because it makes all the difference in the world.

It seems that I have not learned my lesson, since I still just ramble on:) but I have come to the conclusion that I do not think that I can answer you
satisfyingly in my less powerful second language. I do agree very much so that everything not verifiable today, is only philosophical speculation. But I am a philosophical creature who cannot help but ramble on:)

[Madness]

Lol.

First off, you make great sense, even for a second language.

Second, feel free, at any time, to write in whatever language feels comfortable. If there isn't a script for your language, then I'll find out how to add one.

The worst that could happen is that someone learns some Norwegian. The best is that you meet other Norwegian speaking fans - I've offered elsewhere that I'd make a polylinguist forum for those who can use it. And that way you can have a standing post that does communicative justice to what it is you think you'd rather have communicated.

Aside .

I've done some drugs in my life. I've known people who've participated and aspects of experiences you might be trying to communicate.

But my opinion (from the evidence as I've seen it so far) is that those truth were available inside you - regardless of the cocktail that happened to unlock them in the instances you've historized.

I do think that humans have the unfortunate habit of attributing things greater than themselves to divine, alien, transcending experiences (Drugs?)... I've written this before I know.

But I have no real knowledge nor desire to dissuade you of your outlook. My go-to metaphor is that total-reality is probably far, far more complicated than we three pound brains are capable of imagining at this stage in our evolution.

[Royce]

Second, feel free, at any time, to write in whatever language feels comfortable. If there isn't a script for your language, then I'll find out how to add one.

The worst that could happen is that someone learns some Norwegian. The best is that you meet other Norwegian speaking fans - I've offered elsewhere that I'd make a polylinguist forum for those who can use it. And that way you can have a standing post that does communicative justice to what it is you think you'd rather have communicated.

Since I am such a dinosaur, I was not aware of this:) I do enjoy the training and effort though, so I might just continue, although it can be frustrating at
times. After spending about 6 months here I have taken huge steps in describing concepts(which is the hard part for me at least).

I do think that humans have the unfortunate habit of attributing things greater than themselves to divine, alien, transcending experiences (Drugs?)... I've written this before I know.

Yes, I fall into that trap now and again. Part of the conditioning I guess, believing that there just has to be something "more" than humanness.

But I have no real knowledge nor desire to dissuade you of your outlook. My go-to metaphor is that total-reality is probably far, far more complicated than we three pound brains are capable of imagining at this stage in our evolution.

Oh, but my outlook really changes with the wind:) I think it does because I accept that we know nothing about the "big picture", if there is any.

[Madness]

Since I am such a dinosaur, I was not aware of this:) I do enjoy the training and effort though, so I might just continue, although it can be frustrating at
times. After spending about 6 months here I have taken huge steps in describing concepts(which is the hard part for me at least).

Lol, I wrote it in some post, way back.

Concepts are probably the most difficult (and rewarding) aspect of learning new languages.

Yes, I fall into that trap now and again. Part of the conditioning I guess, believing that there just has to be something "more" than humanness.

I just think we deserve some credit for the few novel things we've done (compass good and bad).

But I have no real knowledge nor desire to dissuade you of your outlook. My go-to metaphor is that total-reality is probably far, far more complicated than we three pound brains are capable of imagining at this stage in our evolution.

Oh, but my outlook really changes with the wind:) I think it does because I accept that we know nothing about the "big picture", if there is any.

Good call. The unknowable option.

[Royce]

Ok. I heard about this guy called Eben Alexander, who is a neurosurgeon, who allegedly has a interesting story to tell in regards of an after life. He was in a meningitis-induced coma for about a week. His family was told that he had maybe 10% chance of survival, and that he would definitely have severe brain damage. During this coma his brain was completely shut down, but he suddenly woke up, perfectly normal and with an interesting tale of his memories during this coma.

I know that this is an anecdote, and you need plenty more to see a pattern or anything. He might of course be a hoax, writing his book about this experience, saying to the media he has seen "heaven", being on Oprah and so forth. It does smell a little bit weird.

Here is an interview with the guy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZFml7LEn68

The interview starts about three minutes in.

I do not usually pay much attention to people in general talking about near death experiences, but this guy has been a neurosurgeon for 20 years or something, and his brain showed no sign of activity during the coma.

[Madness]

I will watch it, Royce, and give it some more thought. I've actually read and heard quite a bit about this story but nothing wrong with deeper considerations.

But I don't think anything I'm going to say is going to validate or invalidate his experiences. And while I certainly think it's possible (as I do everything really), if he's wants to wax evangelist about it as a scientist, then he needs to do some serious research because scientist opinion is still opinion.

I know that this is an anecdote, and you need plenty more to see a pattern or anything. He might of course be a hoax, writing his book about this experience, saying to the media he has seen "heaven", being on Oprah and so forth. It does smell a little bit weird.

This. Right?

Now it could simply be a by-product of the Consult endorsing and utilizing his works to further the narrative. But he gives people false validation when he doesn't have a community of research behind him (I haven't read the book mainly because knowing or not knowing whether the afterlife isn't oblivion isn't my concern in this life - so I could be completely wrong and he has a third book of citations).

[Royce]

This. Right?

This. Yes. My wife got me on to this guy, and she is reading his book. Really, to me he is just another guy saying something pleasing.