The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => The Prince of Nothing => The Almanac: PON Edition => Topic started by: MSJ on April 16, 2018, 02:13:50 am

Title: ARC: TDTCB: Chapter 2
Post by: MSJ on April 16, 2018, 02:13:50 am
Quote
I write to inform you that during my most recent audience, the
Nansur Emperor, quite without provocation, publicly addressed
me as “fool.” You are, no doubt, unmoved by this. It has become
a common occurrence. The Consult eludes us now more than
ever. We hear them only in the secrets of others. We glimpse them
only through the eyes of those who deny their very existence. Why
should we not be called fools? The deeper the Consult secretes
itself among the Great Factions, the madder our rantings sound to
their ears. We are, as the damned Nansur would say, “a hunter
in the thicket”—one who, by the very act of hunting, extinguishes
all hope of running down his prey.
—ANONYMOUS MANDATE SCHOOLMAN, LETTER TO ATYERSUS

Begin at your leisure! :)
Title: Re: ARC: TDTCB: Chapter 2
Post by: H on April 16, 2018, 08:26:48 pm
Chapter 2:

It's interesting to think about Akka's Quorum time, under the lense that Simas is probably already a skin-spy.

On the one hand, what he says is logical, but I can't help but wonder if his aim here is wishful thinking.  No doubt the Consult wants the Holy War to go against the schools, especially the Mandate.  Perhaps even, events going a different direction, Simas would have called for a premptive strike, or some such?

I think this line is a reasonable clue that we should take away that Simas has been replaced:

Quote
And yet Simas watched him so strangely, his eyes curious with their own indecision.

and also Simas himself saying:

Quote
“It comes to this,” Simas continued. “Achamian befriends the people he uses, Nautzera. If he knew his contacts might be hunted, he would hesitate. And perhaps more important, if he knew that Atyersus itself had been infiltrated, he might censor the information he gave us in order to protect his contacts. Remember that he lied, Nautzera, risked the Gnosis itself, to protect that treacherous student of his.”

It's pretty daring, but shrewd of not-Simas to be the one to insist there is an informant, when he himself is the one.  That is confidence right there, something that is most probably linked to it having a soul.  Other skin-spies are not that capable.

Title: Re: ARC: TDTCB: Chapter 2
Post by: JerakoKayne on April 16, 2018, 08:41:51 pm
This chapter is what leads me to believe that prior to this point, Achamian (and the rest of the Mandate) are practically unwitting agents of the Consult themselves, at this stage. Much of the chapter is world- and character-building, but a couple of things stand out to me.

Simas being replaced by a skin-spy was likely not a recent thing, I think at least pre-dating Akka's apprenticeship in his youth. Simas was his tutor, and especially the stuff like Simas' "There's strength in scepticism ... enough to be sceptical of our scepticism, hmm?" It's the beginning of the argument Simas makes that finally persuades Akka to betray Inrau, because it had trained Akka to think that way. It realizes that doubt is at the core of Akka's worldview, because it trained him to be that way! And likely many others among the "sceptic" faction.

It then continues to invoke the Mandate mission, to press just how Important Stuff this mission they're giving him is. And it is, to the Consult. We learn that Maithanet has an unusual affinity for rooting out spies and plots. With the relatively recent discovery of the skin-spies a decade earlier, I think they're hedging their bets. They still don't know why their spies were detected, and though they do have agents within the Temples, none seem to be close to Maithanet. Sending one of "their" human resources could seem a much safer bet.

And in the end, it's subtle enough that Akka feels like he is agreeing with Nautzera, though it is Simas who persuaded him.
Title: Re: ARC: TDTCB: Chapter 2
Post by: JerakoKayne on April 16, 2018, 09:22:10 pm
What I can't work out is why only recently have the Mandate informants been purged? Having a spy in the Quorum isn't necessary to do that; it's likely most, if not all, Mandati field agents have a skin-spy watching them. There is no need for Atyersus itself to be infiltrated to know who the informants are.

Geshrunni had been talking to Achamian for some time, even as Achamian had been being watched. It's only when Geshrunni reveals information tangentially related to the Consult that he is murdered. I am very curious what the other informants across the Three Seas had been uncovering, or if there is some other reason the Consult is suddenly less subtly "plucking eyes".
Title: Re: ARC: TDTCB: Chapter 2
Post by: H on April 17, 2018, 10:24:02 am
What I can't work out is why only recently have the Mandate informants been purged? Having a spy in the Quorum isn't necessary to do that; it's likely most, if not all, Mandati field agents have a skin-spy watching them. There is no need for Atyersus itself to be infiltrated to know who the informants are.

Geshrunni had been talking to Achamian for some time, even as Achamian had been being watched. It's only when Geshrunni reveals information tangentially related to the Consult that he is murdered. I am very curious what the other informants across the Three Seas had been uncovering, or if there is some other reason the Consult is suddenly less subtly "plucking eyes".

It's probably related to Maithanet and the start of the Holy War.  If the Consult plan was (initially) to hopefully get it to be declared against the Schools, it makes sense that they would want the Mandate (the school they most want eliminated) to be as blind as possible.  That this fails, of course, really isn't a Consult mistake, rather, the fact that they simply could not have known the full extent of what was going on.

Even though, thinking about it now, the Consult knows that something is afoot with the Cishaurim, since Moe has been eliminating all their agents there...
Title: Re: ARC: TDTCB: Chapter 2
Post by: MSJ on April 17, 2018, 03:28:13 pm
Quote from:  H
It's probably related to Maithanet and the start of the Holy War.  If the Consult plan was (initially) to hopefully get it to be declared against the Schools, it makes sense that they would want the Mandate (the school they most want eliminated) to be as blind as possible.  That this fails, of course, really isn't a Consult mistake, rather, the fact that they simply could not have known the full extent of what was going on.

Havent finiahed reading, just wanted to comment on this. And, oops, didnt finish reading the post. But, you're right, the Consult want to eliminate the Cish, because they know they're exposing and killing and torturing skin spies. Thats why they were interested in what Geshrunni related to Akka.
Title: Re: ARC: TDTCB: Chapter 2
Post by: H on April 17, 2018, 05:21:28 pm
Quote from:  H
It's probably related to Maithanet and the start of the Holy War.  If the Consult plan was (initially) to hopefully get it to be declared against the Schools, it makes sense that they would want the Mandate (the school they most want eliminated) to be as blind as possible.  That this fails, of course, really isn't a Consult mistake, rather, the fact that they simply could not have known the full extent of what was going on.

Havent finiahed reading, just wanted to comment on this. And, oops, didnt finish reading the post. But, you're right, the Consult want to eliminate the Cish, because they know they're exposing and killing and torturing skin spies. Thats why they were interested in what Geshrunni related to Akka.

Yeah, the more I think about it, I think the Simas agent is just trying to sow some seeds of paranoia.  It would be very, very costly should the Simas agent be exposed, so to try to push any agenda that could even possibly put it on outs would be disastrous.  Better to toe the line, expose nothing and just let things play out on the other end, since the Simas agent is literally irreplaceable.
Title: Re: ARC: TDTCB: Chapter 2
Post by: TheCulminatingApe on April 17, 2018, 08:33:27 pm
Simas describes Akka as open and weak, whereas Akka can think of few places more heartless than Atyersus.  Early suggestions that Akka is gay, before further detail tells us about the nature of his relationship with Inrau.  We then learn that Akka might love a woman - 'were he a man, and not a sorceror and a spy'.  Inrau never ceases to see beauty and can forgive the blemishes in other men - Akka helps him escape to protect his innocent nature.  He doesn't want Inrau to be affected the way was when he became Mandati, and he knows how cruel/ ruthless/ manipulative his fellows are.
Quote
“It comes to this,” Simas continued. “Achamian befriends the people he uses, Nautzera. If he knew his contacts might be hunted, he would hesitate. And perhaps more important, if he knew that Atyersus itself had been infiltrated, he might censor the information he gave us in order to protect his contacts. Remember that he lied, Nautzera, risked the Gnosis itself, to protect that treacherous student of his.”

"But", Nautzera interjected, "we all know that faith is no friend to reason.  The distinction between rational and irrational mean little when one speaks of The Thousand Temples"

"This man is more than simply shrewd.  Far More" "Maithanet is shrewd, a man of intellect"

"the "mandate"...was.. to learn, to live from the past, not live in it"

"Besides," Nautzera added, "if you refuse to go, you merely force us to send someone - how should I put it? - less sentimental"

"ignorance is a potent tool. "As is knowledge"

Contradictions between rationality and emotion are set out here.  There is an implication that faith or feeling can be manipulated by intelligence or cunning - both in the quotes about Maithanet, and in the way Akka is 'convinced' to go to Sumna. 

We also learn that Akka is an open, caring man, perhaps to some appearing soft, or lacking ruthlessness.  Seswatha's Heart is first mentioned here, but it seems that Akka has retained his own as well.

There are echoes of some of the themes set out in the Prologue, where Kellhus appears to experience emotion and irrational sensations for the first time, and also realises that he can manipulate the world using his superior knowledge and intellect.
Title: Re: ARC: TDTCB: Chapter 2
Post by: Wilshire on April 18, 2018, 04:39:33 pm
Yeah lets not forget that the Consult are pushing for holy war against the Cishaurim on literally every front. The SS, the Thousand Temples, the Nansur Empire, and (it stands to reason) the Mandate. The Cishaurim (as far as the Consult knows) are the only group that can root out their skin-spies, and need to be destroyed.

BTW, I forget, did someone figure out the year that the Consult took down Ishual? Obviously too early for this, couldn't have been until sometime during TTT, if not later. Not something to be concerned with now, but at some point the fall of Ishual and the subsequent rise of the Dunyain Consult becomes a factor.
Title: Re: ARC: TDTCB: Chapter 2
Post by: TheCulminatingApe on April 18, 2018, 06:41:10 pm
We are slowly being introduced to the various factions in the Three Seas.  In Chapter 1 we are introduced to the Scarlet Spires, the Mandate, and the Cishaurim.  In Chapter 2 we learn more about the Mandate, we learn that the Cishaurim belong to a religion called Fanimry, and that there is another religion comprising something called the Thousand Temples, led by a Shriah.  We also learn that sorcerors are considered  'unclean' from a religious perspective and that holy wars have been waged against them in the past.

But perhaps there is a new player in the game.
"All have kissed his[Maithanet's] knee.  And with none of the political manoeuvering obligatory to such transitions of power... He has stirred something novel...and not merely within the Thousand Temples"
"This man is more than simply shrewd.  Far more."
"Maithanet is shrewd, a man of intellect"

Are these the first faint hints that a Dunyain is now active in the world?

As Akka thinks to himself in the audience hall at Atyersus, "...With every flicker the ground seemed to shift  Is this a hint that events are now taking place on Conditioned Ground?
Title: Re: ARC: TDTCB: Chapter 2
Post by: MSJ on April 19, 2018, 03:01:32 pm
Quote from:  Ape
We are slowly being introduced to the various factions in the Three Seas.  In Chapter 1 we are introduced to the Scarlet Spires, the Mandate, and the Cishaurim.  In Chapter 2 we learn more about the Mandate, we learn that the Cishaurim belong to a religion called Fanimry, and that there is another religion comprising something called the Thousand Temples, led by a Shriah.  We also learn that sorcerors are considered  'unclean' from a religious perspective and that holy wars have been waged against them in the past.

But perhaps there is a new player in the game.
"All have kissed his[Maithanet's] knee.  And with none of the political manoeuvering obligatory to such transitions of power... He has stirred something novel...and not merely within the Thousand Temples"
"This man is more than simply shrewd.  Far more."
"Maithanet is shrewd, a man of intellect"

Are these the first faint hints that a Dunyain is now active in the world?

As Akka thinks to himself in the audience hall at Atyersus, "...With every flicker the ground seemed to shift  Is this a hint that events are now taking place on Conditioned Ground?

Very astute take away from the chapter Ape. Basically, what I got from the chapter also. More hints that Akka may enjoy the touch of a man. But, as Wilshire says, what we're seeing in hindsight, is the Consult positioning for a Holy War against the Cish. As we move on, its great trying to figure when Skeaos and Istryia have become one, as we did on the slog. But, I think, one or the other was replaced (I believe Istryia) to cover up the fuck ups of the other in book. Meaning, their both not skin spies when we first meet them.

I do truly wonder how long Simas was a skin spy. My intuition tells me for years at least. But, I don't think he was when training Akka.
Title: Re: ARC: TDTCB: Chapter 2
Post by: Wilshire on April 19, 2018, 03:43:35 pm
I do truly wonder how long Simas was a skin spy. My intuition tells me for years at least. But, I don't think he was when training Akka.

Perhaps he didnt start as Simas either. Hard to believe he could replace one of the Quorum on a first bet.

I don't think it has been Simas for so long, but maybe its been in the Mandate for decades. Maybe even as that peer/student Akka loved early on who later died... :)
Title: Re: ARC: TDTCB: Chapter 2
Post by: H on April 19, 2018, 05:06:30 pm
I do truly wonder how long Simas was a skin spy. My intuition tells me for years at least. But, I don't think he was when training Akka.

Perhaps he didnt start as Simas either. Hard to believe he could replace one of the Quorum on a first bet.

I don't think it has been Simas for so long, but maybe its been in the Mandate for decades. Maybe even as that peer/student Akka loved early on who later died... :)

It's hard to say, but it is plausible that, perhaps, there never was a "real" Simas.  Or that Simas was replaced soon after joining the Mandate.  It would probably be almost impossible for them to have replaced Simas more recently, since I really doubt if the Quorum members often leave Atyersus.  Also, it's knowledge of Inrau would seem to speak to it having been around for a good while, or that original Simas kept some kind of journal or something that made it easier to know what he knew...
Title: Re: ARC: TDTCB: Chapter 2
Post by: Wilshire on April 19, 2018, 06:41:19 pm
We also have no idea how old the weapon races ca get.

Do skinspies age? Sranc are obviously born, and become adults, but do they have a natural lifespan, or is that why they have such a ridiculous population - they don't die with time.

Skin spies are presumably birthed from the Arc in some way, fully formed. Does time do anything to them? Thing-Called-Simas could be centuries old.
Title: Re: ARC: TDTCB: Chapter 2
Post by: TheCulminatingApe on April 19, 2018, 08:13:46 pm
I do truly wonder how long Simas was a skin spy. My intuition tells me for years at least. But, I don't think he was when training Akka.

Perhaps he didnt start as Simas either. Hard to believe he could replace one of the Quorum on a first bet.

I don't think it has been Simas for so long, but maybe its been in the Mandate for decades. Maybe even as that peer/student Akka loved early on who later died... :)

Either the skin-spy has been Simas for some time, or it has been someone else in Atyersus that would have access to the whereabouts of Mandate agents/ informers.  It's very unlikely to have been another sorceror, because their absence when it switched to Simas would be a red flag.  I'm pretty sure we never get told anything about the organisation of the Mandate other than that the Quorum is a thing, but they must have servants, lackeys etc. 
Title: Re: ARC: TDTCB: Chapter 2
Post by: MSJ on April 20, 2018, 06:44:18 am
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: ARC: TDTCB: Chapter 2
Post by: Wilshire on April 20, 2018, 12:22:53 pm
I do truly wonder how long Simas was a skin spy. My intuition tells me for years at least. But, I don't think he was when training Akka.

Perhaps he didnt start as Simas either. Hard to believe he could replace one of the Quorum on a first bet.

I don't think it has been Simas for so long, but maybe its been in the Mandate for decades. Maybe even as that peer/student Akka loved early on who later died... :)

Either the skin-spy has been Simas for some time, or it has been someone else in Atyersus that would have access to the whereabouts of Mandate agents/ informers.  It's very unlikely to have been another sorceror, because their absence when it switched to Simas would be a red flag.  I'm pretty sure we never get told anything about the organisation of the Mandate other than that the Quorum is a thing, but they must have servants, lackeys etc. 

Its actually fairly difficult to imagine the skin spy penetrating the Mandate. If we assume that skinspies don't really age but are grown/birthed fully formed, then it would be very hard for them to get into any school - since we all but know that Schools only accept child pupils.

Then again, we also know that the Consult are adept gnosis users. With that in mind, I think the most likely thing is that the skinspy was taught the gnosis and allowed to develop a mark of an approriate shade. The Consult, meanwhile, picked out replacement candidates among soft target - probably field agents. Once the spy had a close-enough Mark to the replacee, the switch was made. The spy then spends a long time, years imo, learning the workings of the Mandate, feeding info to the Consult while they figured out who was high enough up to be worth replacing but also not so heavily guarded as to risk exposure.

This is a similar tale to what they normally do - replacing slaves and servents of the true target before going in for the switch - but this is far more delicate since they only have one shot.

When its all said and done, I would guess that the skinspy probably replaced at least one other person before Simas, and eventually replaced Simas before he became a cloistered member of the Quorum, probably at some point when his appointment was largely inevitable.
Title: Re: ARC: TDTCB: Chapter 2
Post by: BeardFisher-King on April 20, 2018, 12:38:19 pm
I do truly wonder how long Simas was a skin spy. My intuition tells me for years at least. But, I don't think he was when training Akka.

Perhaps he didnt start as Simas either. Hard to believe he could replace one of the Quorum on a first bet.

I don't think it has been Simas for so long, but maybe its been in the Mandate for decades. Maybe even as that peer/student Akka loved early on who later died... :)
We eventually learn that Simas is a skin-spy with a soul who can, therefore, perform sorcery. Query: Did Not-Simas suffer the Dreams? That would seem unlikely to me; and so Simas was replaced by Not-Simas after becoming a Mandate sorceror. Further, how well can skin-spies simulate the aging process? Even if the answer is "very well", the longer a spy is in place, the more likely it is liable to be discovered.

All this is to say that I think Simas is still Simas in this chapter. And taking Wilshire's excellent argument above into account, I imagine the future Not-Simas is at this time Not-Someone Else, biding his time or awaiting instruction.

Here's a thought: Could our sorcerous skin-spy be responsible for the assassination of the Thousand Temples bigwig? Were the Cishaurim infiltrated first?
Title: Re: ARC: TDTCB: Chapter 2
Post by: MSJ on April 20, 2018, 09:03:13 pm
Quote from:  Wilshire
Do skinspies age? Sranc are obviously born, and become adults, but do they have a natural lifespan, or is that why they have such a ridiculous population - they don't die with time.

Wether they age or not (I'd say no, they don't) is really irrelevant. We have the scene in TTT when the one with Cnaüir changes faces in front of him. They have the ability to fake age if the should choose to do so. Skin spies are a undetectable Consult spy....until the Dunyain walked through the wilderness.
Title: Re: ARC: TDTCB: Chapter 2
Post by: MSJ on April 21, 2018, 12:23:40 am
Quote from:  BFK
Did Not-Simas suffer the Dreams?

Thinking on it, here's my take on Simas. The Consult are making SS's and find out they found one with a soul. Maybe it looked innthe IF. I think they then sent Simas to Mandate. Truly, I think he's been there for a while. He would have had to grasp the heart, so yes I believe he has the dreams. Think on it. Simas the SS can appear as a 15 year old with sorcerous abilities. He can use hiaa face to age. It makes most sense that he did the grasping and learnt and gained his bruise through the Mandate. He's the reason the Mandate are clueless and he knows where to send it he SS's. Perfect spy for the Consult.
Title: Re: ARC: TDTCB: Chapter 2
Post by: JerakoKayne on April 21, 2018, 01:15:35 pm
I do truly wonder how long Simas was a skin spy. My intuition tells me for years at least. But, I don't think he was when training Akka.

Perhaps he didnt start as Simas either. Hard to believe he could replace one of the Quorum on a first bet.

I don't think it has been Simas for so long, but maybe its been in the Mandate for decades. Maybe even as that peer/student Akka loved early on who later died... :)
We eventually learn that Simas is a skin-spy with a soul who can, therefore, perform sorcery. Query: Did Not-Simas suffer the Dreams? That would seem unlikely to me; and so Simas was replaced by Not-Simas after becoming a Mandate sorceror. Further, how well can skin-spies simulate the aging process? Even if the answer is "very well", the longer a spy is in place, the more likely it is liable to be discovered.

I would infer that not-Simas must have suffered the Dreams. Their dreams are regularly observed by their brothers. We know that sorcerers-of-rank within Atyersus are known and expected targets for Cants of Calling. We also see Achamian Call Nautzera, amid a Dream of Seswatha, and tell him to "send this dream to the others". We can even assume that Mandati sorcerers-of-rank have and thus can be contacted amid mundane dreams (it would be unusual if they did not). But for a particular individual among them to never suffer a true Dream would, I think, be highly unusual and suspicious.
Title: Re: ARC: TDTCB: Chapter 2
Post by: JerakoKayne on April 21, 2018, 01:30:22 pm
We also have no idea how old the weapon races ca get.

Do skinspies age? Sranc are obviously born, and become adults, but do they have a natural lifespan, or is that why they have such a ridiculous population - they don't die with time.

Skin spies are presumably birthed from the Arc in some way, fully formed. Does time do anything to them? Thing-Called-Simas could be centuries old.

On this note, I had the impression during one of the skin-spy POVs (Sarcellus, I think) it was reminiscing about something centuries before.
Title: Re: ARC: TDTCB: Chapter 2
Post by: BeardFisher-King on April 21, 2018, 01:46:02 pm
I do truly wonder how long Simas was a skin spy. My intuition tells me for years at least. But, I don't think he was when training Akka.

Perhaps he didnt start as Simas either. Hard to believe he could replace one of the Quorum on a first bet.

I don't think it has been Simas for so long, but maybe its been in the Mandate for decades. Maybe even as that peer/student Akka loved early on who later died... :)
We eventually learn that Simas is a skin-spy with a soul who can, therefore, perform sorcery. Query: Did Not-Simas suffer the Dreams? That would seem unlikely to me; and so Simas was replaced by Not-Simas after becoming a Mandate sorceror. Further, how well can skin-spies simulate the aging process? Even if the answer is "very well", the longer a spy is in place, the more likely it is liable to be discovered.

I would infer that not-Simas must have suffered the Dreams. Their dreams are regularly observed by their brothers. We know that sorcerers-of-rank within Atyersus are known and expected targets for Cants of Calling. We also see Achamian Call Nautzera, amid a Dream of Seswatha, and tell him to "send this dream to the others". We can even assume that Mandati sorcerers-of-rank have and thus can be contacted amid mundane dreams (it would be unusual if they did not). But for a particular individual among them to never suffer a true Dream would, I think, be highly unusual and suspicious.
More support for the idea that, in Chapter Two, Simas is still Simas. My thinking is that Simas is replaced during the Holy War's march to Shimeh.
Title: Re: ARC: TDTCB: Chapter 2
Post by: BeardFisher-King on April 21, 2018, 02:20:47 pm
BFK's ARC: TDTCB, Chapter Two

I like this chapter a lot, especially given all the retrospective interest in Simas/Not-Simas. I find that I prefer "small-screen" Bakker,  and this chapter is a gem. A three-way  confrontation among Simas (good cop), Nautzera (bad cop) and Achamian. [Aside: I'm reading Simas as not having been replaced by Not-Simas in this scene.] I didn't realize until now how old Nautzera was. There's a nice mention of the architectural style of the ancient North (whose architects "knew nothing of arches and domes"). Achamian shows weariness and even skepticism over the Mandate's mission of opposition to the Consult.

Then, we get to the concern and perplexity over Maithenet and the need for the Inrau ploy. Nautzera and Simas tell Achamian that they suspect that Maithenet may be a Consult agent, or at least that there is something "new" about this Shriah.

Here's a thought for the Not-Simas theory: Simas argues with Nautzera that Achamian should have been given the information that Maithenet's target of his Holy War is already known by the Mandate. Why would a Not-Simas argue this point? Wheels within wheels...

Chapter Two Body Count: Zero!
Title: Re: ARC: TDTCB: Chapter 2
Post by: JerakoKayne on April 21, 2018, 06:06:21 pm
I do truly wonder how long Simas was a skin spy. My intuition tells me for years at least. But, I don't think he was when training Akka.

Perhaps he didnt start as Simas either. Hard to believe he could replace one of the Quorum on a first bet.

I don't think it has been Simas for so long, but maybe its been in the Mandate for decades. Maybe even as that peer/student Akka loved early on who later died... :)
We eventually learn that Simas is a skin-spy with a soul who can, therefore, perform sorcery. Query: Did Not-Simas suffer the Dreams? That would seem unlikely to me; and so Simas was replaced by Not-Simas after becoming a Mandate sorceror. Further, how well can skin-spies simulate the aging process? Even if the answer is "very well", the longer a spy is in place, the more likely it is liable to be discovered.

I would infer that not-Simas must have suffered the Dreams. Their dreams are regularly observed by their brothers. We know that sorcerers-of-rank within Atyersus are known and expected targets for Cants of Calling. We also see Achamian Call Nautzera, amid a Dream of Seswatha, and tell him to "send this dream to the others". We can even assume that Mandati sorcerers-of-rank have and thus can be contacted amid mundane dreams (it would be unusual if they did not). But for a particular individual among them to never suffer a true Dream would, I think, be highly unusual and suspicious.
More support for the idea that, in Chapter Two, Simas is still Simas. My thinking is that Simas is replaced during the Holy War's march to Shimeh.


Perhaps, but only if it is assumed that a skin-spy couldn't dream the Dreams. Seemingly, if a skin-spy touches the Heart, it happens to their soul the same as it happens to a human. Perhaps that is how it was discovered that the skin-spy had a soul in the first place, i.e. it got imprinted when handling the Heart trying to steal it?

Taken in context with how his brothers interact with him, I really think we see the same creature from here until its exposure. I have to bring up the next chapter for a moment, because it helps illustrate. There, Ikurei Istriya is introduced for the first time, and the text nearly screams that she has just been replaced (EDIT - Chapter 3 is my favorite chapter for this very issue, so I'll wait for most of that until next week). From the first, Xerius notices "something strange in her manner, something bottled, akin to Akka's observations of unusual behaviors in not-Simas. Discrepencies of body and character both, in how Istriya behaved and seemed ("Have you finally lost your touch...", had age finally caught up with her, etc.)

These are echoed in Simas too, who has discrepencies about his eyes. No matter their apparent age, Simas' eyes aren't failing because he's not actually aging with Nautzera. N himself comments that he, at least, knows that the way Simas acts is not at all Simas 'true' nature (when that front falters a moment in irritation "At last we see the real you, old friend.") The difference between Nautzera and Xerius, in the next chapter is that Nautzera knows these discrepencies as a part of Simas' character, so long has he had them. In Istriya they have just recently changed.

They're subtle things, but not too subtle in this regard, at least. Here in Bakker's first work, I can't help but think that any such subtletly, especially one that repeats later is quite deliberate. None of these lines were rushed, or in error (as later books suffer from) and will repeat again throughout PoN, at least, so I can't help but think Bakker was attempting to seed these as the clues we can use to track the skin-spies.
Title: Re: ARC: TDTCB: Chapter 2
Post by: JerakoKayne on April 21, 2018, 06:34:21 pm
I almost feel like drawing up a table as we go along, to track the skin-spies we see, and draw up more commonalities in how they act and are perceived. There's almost always at least one confirmed skin-spy around. In chapter 1 we don't have a name (but I assume we'll see him again, at least in TWP) as one murders Geshrunni. Chapter Two has not-Simas. Chapter three has Skeaos and Istriya. It might be neat to track.
Title: Re: ARC: TDTCB: Chapter 2
Post by: BeardFisher-King on April 21, 2018, 08:50:50 pm
Nicely argued, JK. But I don't think the Consult would risk the Mandate's discovery of the existence of skin-spies by a high-level infiltration such as replacing Simas with the one, irreplaceable souled skin-spy. That's a valuable piece to be held in reserve until events warrant its deployment.

Unless, as I've speculated above, the sorceror/skin-spy was responsible for the assassination of Sasheoka, the Thousand Temples Grandmaster.
Title: Re: ARC: TDTCB: Chapter 2
Post by: JerakoKayne on April 21, 2018, 09:15:19 pm
What were they risking? Even assuming "Simas" was old, say 60s or 70s?, the Consult's skin-spies had already been in full operation, completely undetected for two and a half centuries. What better place to use such an asset, than in the very heart of their enemy?

Whenever the creature first infiltrated could easily, and likely would have been much earlier than ten years before 'present', until which time they had no reason to suspect they would be suspected. They likely did have contingency plans for discovery, too.

A plausible scenario might be that it's been doing this for decades, as far more than just Simas. When it comes time for "Simas" to die, it studies another member of the Quorum for a time. Who else has better access to them but each other? "Simas" death is then manufactured and the creature simply steps into the role of its new target with a similar Mark. It would only need keep its use of sorcery to a minimum over time to keep its Mark from deepening too much. Where better, than in the heart of a fortress, and thus safety? It's impossible to say how long it could keep up this routine, but I think it's plausible it could have been there from the beginning, if they live for centuries, even if not as "Simas".

Always some member of the Quorum. By their nature, the Mandate are going to be reluctant to ever begin to suspect them.
Title: Re: ARC: TDTCB: Chapter 2
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on April 30, 2018, 02:32:52 pm
My comments on chapter 2, sorry for the long delay.


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"No. We've not seen this 'kind' before. None has moved this fast, or with such cunning. Maithanet is no mere enthusiast. Within the first three weeks of his tenure two plots to poison him were uncovered-and here's the thing-by Maithanet himself. No fewer than seven of the Emperor's agents were exposed and executed in Sumna. This man is more than simply shrewd. Far more."

Very nice foreshadowing of Maithanet being a (half-)Dûnyain, I for one I'm embarrassed of how long it took for me to realize what was going on with him (I only put the pieces together early in TTT, but then again I did go through these books very fast the first time).
Like Madness once said in the Quorum, a PON prequel with Maithanet as one of the main characters would be just so interesting. Seriously, the mention of how he uncovered these plots and identified these spies makes it out to be a very good example of what TVTropes would refer to as an "offscreen moment of awesome" (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OffscreenMomentOfAwesome) (well, off-page in this case).


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The ancient sorcerer had always possessed a disconcerting presence: intimidating because of his height and yet pathetic because of his great age. His skin seemed an insult to the silks that draped him.

Wow, that's some extreme ageism right there, Achamian. Especially bad after I checked Nautzera's birth year in the wiki and realized that he was born in 4038, meaning he would be 71-72 in 4110. That means that Nautzera in PON was just a couple of years older than Achamian himself during TAE. Suddenly, I don't feel bad at all when I remember Sorweel and Kelmomas' POVs referring to him as "an ancient beggar" (or something similar).


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Unlike the others, those like Nautzera, he could distinguish his age from the one he dreamt night after night. He could see the difference. The Mandate was not merely poised between epochs-it was poised between dreams and waking life.

This becomes wonderfully ironic after Achamian becomes a "prophet of the past" in between series and over the course of TAE, doesn't it? Living more in the dreams than in the present, having the separation between the two grow more and more blurry and indistinct...


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Achamian turned to him, caught by something in his tone.
Simas's gaze faltered. A small struggle darkened his face. He continued.
"You've noticed how intense the Dreams have become. I can see that much in your eyes. We've all become a little wild-eyed as of late . . . Something . . ." He paused, unfocused his eyes as though counting his own heartbeat. Achamian felt his hackles rise. He'd never seen Simas like this. Indecisive. Frightened, even.

A clue something is off about him. Interesting that this comes after the "Perhaps dangerous enought to be sceptical even of our scepticism" line. We know all about skin-spies' issues with paradoxes and the like, might be his own comment confused him a little and rendered him unable to "function properly" for a short while, which Akka interpreted as fear? Yes, I know that this probably shouldn't happen in the case of this particular skin-spy, due to him having a soul, but they're still artificial beings, and we have no idea what were the circumstances that caused thing-called-Simas to have a soul in the first place. There could be some "strangeness" there, even with the soul.
And yes, I'm in the "Simas was already a skin-spy at this time" camp. I do think it's plausible that he had been around for a few decades (after all, the same was presumably true of Skeaös). While skin-spies are either functionally immortal or, at the very least, seem to have extremely long lifespans (if I remember correctly, the Serwë skin-spy mentions having been a Scylvendi a couple of centuries before), it does make sense that they could acurately mimic aging.


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But where Proyas had gone proud, overfed on the knowledge he would someday be King, Inrau had remained . . . Inrau.

Wait a minute, Proyas was never supposed to be king of Conriya. He had an older brother, who was still alive and well at the time Achamian was Proyas' tutor. There might be an inconsistency here, and I believe something similar later comes up in TUC...


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How many years had passed since he'd last visited Sumna? Five? Seven? He idly wondered if he'd find Esmenet there, whether she still lived.

Just keeping note of these temporal references to try to figure out when exactly did Achamian and Esmenet first meet (I don't think there's enough information for that, but I can try).


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Why did he begrudge Simas so? Was it because the man's eyes had yet to fail, while Nautzera, like so many others, had to rely on his students to read to him?

See, this to me is evidence that Simas had to be a skin-spy at this time. Sure, it's not implausible that human Simas would be still be able to read (especially since he'd be over a decade Nautzera's junior - only 57-58 as of 4110, thank you wiki). But this taken together with Skeaös' abnormal agility for his apparent age later on does make it seem like Simas was indeed a skin-spy at this point.


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But if the years had taught Nautzera one thing about Polchias Simas, was that the man was so shrewd as he was devoid of sentiment.

Something already present in the original Simas? A personality deliberately cultivated by the skin-spy? Or another indicator that he was not actually human?
It's kind of a shame that this is the last we see of Simas (whether or not he's the thing-called-Simas at this point) until the skin-spy's reveal in TTT. To me, Maithanet revealing he was an anomaly with the soul just brought to mind so many questions and made the whole situation so much more intriguing. I wish we could have seen more of this skin-spy, given how unique he was.
Title: Re: ARC: TDTCB: Chapter 2
Post by: BeardFisher-King on April 30, 2018, 08:28:57 pm
Quote
Achamian turned to him, caught by something in his tone.
Simas's gaze faltered. A small struggle darkened his face. He continued.
"You've noticed how intense the Dreams have become. I can see that much in your eyes. We've all become a little wild-eyed as of late . . . Something . . ." He paused, unfocused his eyes as though counting his own heartbeat. Achamian felt his hackles rise. He'd never seen Simas like this. Indecisive. Frightened, even.

A clue something is off about him. Interesting that this comes after the "Perhaps dangerous enought to be sceptical even of our scepticism" line. We know all about skin-spies' issues with paradoxes and the like, might be his own comment confused him a little and rendered him unable to "function properly" for a short while, which Akka interpreted as fear? Yes, I know that this probably shouldn't happen in the case of this particular skin-spy, due to him having a soul, but they're still artificial beings, and we have no idea what were the circumstances that caused thing-called-Simas to have a soul in the first place. There could be some "strangeness" there, even with the soul.
And yes, I'm in the "Simas was already a skin-spy at this time" camp. I do think it's plausible that he had been around for a few decades (after all, the same was presumably true of Skeaös). While skin-spies are either functionally immortal or, at the very least, seem to have extremely long lifespans (if I remember correctly, the Serwë skin-spy mentions having been a Scylvendi a couple of centuries before), it does make sense that they could acurately mimic aging.
Quote
Why did he begrudge Simas so? Was it because the man's eyes had yet to fail, while Nautzera, like so many others, had to rely on his students to read to him?

See, this to me is evidence that Simas had to be a skin-spy at this time. Sure, it's not implausible that human Simas would be still be able to read (especially since he'd be over a decade Nautzera's junior - only 57-58 as of 4110, thank you wiki). But this taken together with Skeaös' abnormal agility for his apparent age later on does make it seem like Simas was indeed a skin-spy at this point.


Quote
But if the years had taught Nautzera one thing about Polchias Simas, was that the man was so shrewd as he was devoid of sentiment.

Something already present in the original Simas? A personality deliberately cultivated by the skin-spy? Or another indicator that he was not actually human?
It's kind of a shame that this is the last we see of Simas (whether or not he's the thing-called-Simas at this point) until the skin-spy's reveal in TTT. To me, Maithanet revealing he was an anomaly with the soul just brought to mind so many questions and made the whole situation so much more intriguing. I wish we could have seen more of this skin-spy, given how unique he was.
If this is, indeed, the last appearance of Simas/Not-Simas until he's outed in TTT, then I take that as an indication that Simas is still Simas in this chapter. ThoughtsOfThelli makes a good case for Not-Simas (as did JerakoKayne earlier), but consider: as we proceed in TDTCB, our skin-spy POV will be Not-Sarcellus, a "normal" skin-spy. Bakker spends much time on the "sham" of the skin-spy's "soul". The anomalous ensouled skin-spy, Not-Simas, doesn't really influence the plot as significantly as one would think, in retrospect. So I'm happy to be in the Simas = Simas camp. I will wait upon events.