The Second Apocalypse
Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The White-Luck Warrior => Topic started by: What Came Before on June 01, 2013, 08:23:23 pm
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Achamian starts Dreaming the life of Anasurimbor Nau-Cayuti, specifically his betrayal, capture, and probably death at the hands of his wife Ieva, the Consult, and their Lord, Shauriatas.
Are these new revelations of Seswatha's Heart and Dreams?
Kellhus' manipulations?
Prophet of the Past?
Manipulations by another...?
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I think having this dream at this time was to highlight the Heron spear.
(Akka is near its location?)
Seswatha was the one prophesised to save the world in the Celmomas prophecy, not the descendant Anasûrimbor.
I see Akas task at this time, as the recovery of the spear.
Where did Seswatha hide it? Was the question being asked by Shaeönanra.
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I do believe you are miss-remembering the quote.
Wasn't it simply "One of my seed will return at the end of the world"?
At least that was the first part, I can't remember if Celmomas said who was to save the world, only that the world was not to end with his demise. That is why Kell is the harbinger, not the savior.
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Edit: Further inspection of my memories, he said that the world wouldnt end with him, but that it was Seswatha's burden. This was probably what we are supposed to believe is part of the motivation behind the heart and the preservation of memories, so that Seswatha never 'died', or at least his memories are saved.
Though many people around have speculated many things about the dreams, the heart, Seswatha, and even this very prophesy. Some suggest that the prophesy if a farce created by the Consult, but whatever thats not really what this post is talking about.
Also remember that its not necessarily what the dream was about, but rather WHEN the dream occurred (from Bakker himself in a recent interview I think). Though it could be a marriage of both, so perhaps when Nau was being tortured, Seswatha was running around Ishual. To me its very difficult to disengage meaning from the dream completely and only focus on when, so I lean towards this kind of combination as it is something I can understand.
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So gents, I took your inevitable conclusion and dropped it into the Interlude: Ishual (http://secondapocalypse.forumer.com/interlude-ishual-t1249039.html)[/u] thread. Timing, location, varience... Seswatha hid the Heron Spear in Ishual.
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bingo
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Edit: Further inspection of my memories, he said that the world wouldnt end with him, but that it was Seswatha's burden..
Hmm.
I remember it as preventing the end of the world being Seswatha’s burden.
I’ll have to check
Also i am talking about the when, it’s the first time Akka has had this dream.
(right outside Ishul)
At the time of Nau-Cayûti torture not many knew of the kings hidden citadel.
Seswatha may well have seen it as a good hiding place?
So yeah, Madness has solved it :D
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This is assuming, of course, that the revelations of Nau-Cayuti's Dreams aren't proof of something else, instead of or as well as our conclusions here.
But I think it's pretty solid. It'd be pretty damn cool if Achamian gets to start off TUC with a fucking lasgun :shock: .
That's always an aspect of this that I hope Bakker really explores because he's doing something novel with this fantasy perspective of a SF/F mash-up.
Then again, five books in, I also want Bakker to do a series just straight up SF but we'll see where this goes.
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Found it.
The high king shook his head , stilled him with tender eyes. ”they call to me.
They say that my end is not the world’s end.
That burden they say , is yours.
Yours, Seswatha.”
It’s open to interpretation i guess.
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This is assuming, of course, that the revelations of Nau-Cayuti's Dreams aren't proof of something else, instead of or as well as our conclusions here.
But I think it's pretty solid. It'd be pretty damn cool if Achamian gets to start off TUC with a fucking lasgun :shock: .
That's always an aspect of this that I hope Bakker really explores because he's doing something novel with this fantasy perspective of a SF/F mash-up.
Then again, five books in, I also want Bakker to do a series just straight up SF but we'll see where this goes.
First of all, stop it lol, too many theories all at once.
Second, I finished God Emperor of Dune, though this is largely unrelated to his topic aside from your allusion.
Along that line of though, maybe the carapace was a shield and when the lasgun, i mean heron spear, shot it.... well you know the rest (the carapace could have contained much of the ensuing explosion and let out all the radiation)
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Found it.
The high king shook his head , stilled him with tender eyes. ”they call to me.
They say that my end is not the world’s end.
That burden they say , is yours.
Yours, Seswatha.”
It’s open to interpretation i guess.
and then "one of my seed will return at the end of the world" right?
Line by line then:
"they call to me"
Who are 'they'? The gods? If so which ones. I didn't think Earwa's gods did that (though someone will probably find another instance of this this happening now that i've said that), it sounds like hes describing Valkyries and hes about to go to Valhalla.
"They say that my end is not the world's end."
There they are again. Sigh, wish we had more. Prophesies have a funny way of turning up false in Earwa, those damn Consult and their meddling (along with other forces). Regardless, pretty clear that he thinks his dieing is not the end of the world.
"That burden, they say, is yours. Yours Seswatha"
That burden is, I would guess, meant to be the burden in the line above, and that its Seswatha's not his.
So then it would read, replacing the words "Your end is the world's end".
Thoughts?
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Boys... check your biases.
"'Do you see the sun? Do you see it flare, Seswatha?'
'The sun sets,' Achamian replied.
'Yes! Yes. The darkness of the No-God is not all-encompasing. The Gods see us yet, dear friend. They are distant, but I can hear them galloping across the skies. I can hear them cry out to me' ... The High King shook his head, stilled him with tender eyes. ' They call to me. They say the my end is not the world's end. That burden, they say, is yours. Yours, Seswatha'" (TDTCB, p52).
Not quite sure what you two are discussing but it seems pretty clear to me that They are the Gods.
It's also interesting that this seems to explicitly reference our combined understanding of the Gods, save Ajolki, being unable to sense the No-God.
And yay! Can't wait to talk some Dune - PON with you, Wilshire :D.
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It's interesting how other can draw different conclusions from the text, and I don't for a moment insist that the others are wrong, and I am right. The interesting thing regarding Achamian's dream is that it was not about Seswatha, it was about Nau-Cayuti (possibly Seswatha's son?). The idea that the Heron Spear, a technological artefact, could be preserved and operable over the millenia is a bit far-fetched. We were also told (somehwere in the glossaries) that the Heron Spear was lost in near antiquity (in the sack of Cenei by the Scylvendi). Anyway, thanks to Madness for posting the excerpt - I did read a spoiler this time.
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Except the gods can't see the consult, so how can it be the gods who know it's the end of the world (particularly given it isn't - that time around, anyway)?
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Random question:
Did Achamian have any NC dreams before Cleric started dispensing the Qirri? Mind you, I don't think that even means that the Qirri is causing them, but I wondered about the timing.
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Assumptively, Nau-Cayuti's the man who is beaten and chained in the long line, looking down the tunnel of trees towards the Golden Room. This Dream starts happening in the Mop and eventually (when not surrounded by old growth) the Dream resolves into a long golden tunnel leading to the Golden Room.
However, the only Dreams in WLW that are actually explicitly Nau-Cayuti are when Achamian dreams the Dream of Ieva poisoning Nau-Cayuti in his sleep and when Aurang breaks open Nau-Cayuti's sarcophagus.
Otherwise, its never said that the man in the tunnel is Nau-Cayuti but I can assume that that Dream will be explored more in TUC.
No problems, anor, just glad to facilitate a community again where that could even happen and where our participation encourages new fans :). Keep Bakker writing and us reading :ugeek: .
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It is unlikely that my cell phone will work for another 2 or 3 years, but perhaps not so far fetched that an old piece of technology could work thousands of years after its creation, at least in Earwa. This is because there is magic, and you never quite know how a little bit of magic can change, enhance, or fix in some way that old piece of weaponry.
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Enhance :D!
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Assumptively, Nau-Cayuti's the man who is beaten and chained in the long line
I never thought it was him, I just assumed it was just some poor guy. Did seem a bit random at the time - attached to no one of note (the dreams always hover around the all important world souls, generally)
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the assumption that it is NC in the golden room dreams is a carryover from the westeros threads, iirc, and it makes sense, particularly with that first dream of TUC.
OTOH, Bakker could just be providing a literary parallel to the single-continuous-dream of TTT that follows Ses and NC through Golgotteranth--the parallel being that the books are both third volumes and the rationale for NC rather than Ses is 'fuck it, it's a fantasy, I make the rules.'
And Trisk, Cleric dispenses the Qirri at the end of TJE, I'm not sure if he does so for Akka who may still be sleeping (remember Akka was unconscious for 99% of the battle/flight in Cil Aujus. As for Timing, the wight appears pretty much immediately after the Qirri is dispensed. Another thing of timing, Cleric has a scene with CC's statue prior to the attack, I've long wondered if he collected the ashes there, or had he simply kept them around for 10,000 years so he could hand them out to a bunch of humans?
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Sometimes this stuff makes me think of the contortions of the original total recall movie. Where even the bad guy says 'I'm damn surprised it even worked!"
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Cleric has a scene with CC's statue prior to the attack, I've long wondered if he collected the ashes there, or had he simply kept them around for 10,000 years so he could hand them out to a bunch of humans?
Off course, thank you Lockesnow!
As for whom Akka is dreaming about?
To me that can’t be any other than Seswatha and his son.
Due to the hart, and all that malarkey.