The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => The Prince of Nothing => The Almanac: PON Edition => Topic started by: MSJ on April 06, 2018, 04:21:24 pm

Title: ARC (A Real Chopper): Prologue & Chapter 1
Post by: MSJ on April 06, 2018, 04:21:24 pm
If it is only after that we understand what has come before, then we understand nothing. Thus we shall define the soul as follows: that which precedes everything. —AJENCIS, THE THIRD ANALYTIC OF MEN

This is a history of a great and tragic holy war, of the mighty factions that sought to possess and pervert it, and of a son searching for his father. And as with all histories, it is we, the survivors, who will write its conclusion. —DRUSAS ACHAMIAN, COMPENDIUM OF THE FIRST HOLY WAR

ETA: This is how I want to start each thread, with the quotes at the beginning of each. In the title I put ARC (A Real Chopper), just ARC from here on out, just didn't want people confused with Advanced Reading Copy.

Using the quotes to begin each thread, I think, shows the detail and fresh eyes we should all be reading this with. I still, in my heart, do not believe TUC made the previous seven books meaningless. THIS IS THE THREAD FOR PROLOGUE & CHAPTER 1.  So, don't make another. I went ahead and did this because I want people aware of how we'll do it.

Conversation on the Prologue and Chapter 1 can begin whenever, now. I will probably read tonight. But, from now on threads won't start til each Sunday. Let the Slog of all Slogs begin, its gonna be A Real Chopper!
Title: Re: ARC (A Real Chopper): Prologue & Chapter 1
Post by: MSJ on April 06, 2018, 05:00:10 pm
I just wanted to get some things clarified through Madshire. Since the the series is complete, we will be discussing things that happen in later books and how they relate to earlier ones. So....what's the spoiler policy? Are we gonna have to use spoiler tags to discuss how something in TTT relates to TUC? Just trying to clarify and have rules set in place.

ETA: Madshire, maybe move this post to my original thread on the start of ARC.
Title: Re: ARC (A Real Chopper): Prologue & Chapter 1
Post by: mostly.harmless on April 06, 2018, 06:30:07 pm
I just wanted to get some things clarified through Madshire. Since the the series is complete, we will be discussing things that happen in later books and how they relate to earlier ones. So....what's the spoiler policy? Are we gonna have to use spoiler tags to discuss how something in TTT relates to TUC? Just trying to clarify and have rules set in place.

ETA: Madshire, maybe move this post to my original thread on the start of ARC.
To me personally, it wouldn't make sense at this point to use spoiler tags. Is this thread (can't see on mobile), or should it be, in a sub-forum where spoilers are not an issue?

The point is to gain new insight or make new connections (foreshadowing!) by re-reading the story from beginning till end with the benefit of foresight.

Sent from mobile using Tapatalk

Title: Re: ARC (A Real Chopper): Prologue & Chapter 1
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on April 06, 2018, 06:32:54 pm
I just wanted to get some things clarified through Madshire. Since the the series is complete, we will be discussing things that happen in later books and how they relate to earlier ones. So....what's the spoiler policy? Are we gonna have to use spoiler tags to discuss how something in TTT relates to TUC? Just trying to clarify and have rules set in place.

If we're going to have a full-spoiler discussion of the whole series, I think we should add the "[TUC Spoilers]" warning to the title...


To me personally, it wouldn't make sense at this point to use spoiler tags. Is this thread (can't see on mobile), or should it be, in a sub-forum where spoilers are not an issue?

The point is to gain new insight or make new connections (foreshadowing!) by re-reading the story from beginning till end with the benefit of foresight.

...but if we're going to have this sort of discussion instead, then spoiler warnings won't be needed.


Maybe it would be better to have everyone involved in the reread mention what they prefer?
Title: Re: ARC (A Real Chopper): Prologue & Chapter 1
Post by: mostly.harmless on April 06, 2018, 06:37:18 pm
I just wanted to get some things clarified through Madshire. Since the the series is complete, we will be discussing things that happen in later books and how they relate to earlier ones. So....what's the spoiler policy? Are we gonna have to use spoiler tags to discuss how something in TTT relates to TUC? Just trying to clarify and have rules set in place.

If we're going to have a full-spoiler discussion of the whole series, I think we should add the "[TUC Spoilers]" warning to the title...


To me personally, it wouldn't make sense at this point to use spoiler tags. Is this thread (can't see on mobile), or should it be, in a sub-forum where spoilers are not an issue?

The point is to gain new insight or make new connections (foreshadowing!) by re-reading the story from beginning till end with the benefit of foresight.

...but if we're going to have this sort of discussion instead, then spoiler warnings won't be needed.


Maybe it would be better to have everyone involved in the reread mention what they prefer?
Fair point. Maybe I'm hurtling along a track where the intended approach was different. Would like to know what others think.

Sent from mobile using Tapatalk

Title: Re: ARC (A Real Chopper): Prologue & Chapter 1
Post by: MSJ on April 06, 2018, 06:39:46 pm
I agree mostlyharmless, this was my intention for the reread. To talk openly and make connections. But, its all up to the mods.

ETA: again, could a mod move all posts but the 1st to my original thread on getting this going.
Title: Re: ARC (A Real Chopper): Prologue & Chapter 1
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on April 09, 2018, 11:30:03 am
So, with the forum having been down for a few days, do we discuss the prologue and chapter 1 of TDTCB over this week and keep to the planned schedule, or do we postpone it to next Sunday?
Title: Re: ARC (A Real Chopper): Prologue & Chapter 1
Post by: Wilshire on April 09, 2018, 12:12:25 pm
I'd say proceed without spoiler tags in posts. Maybe we'll move the entire thing to its own subforum at some point, under General Earwa since that one doesn't have any child boards and its open spoilers...

So just carry and do what you guys thinks makes sense, and we'll deal with the moderation side later, per usual. :)
Title: Re: ARC (A Real Chopper): Prologue & Chapter 1
Post by: MSJ on April 09, 2018, 02:24:48 pm
Quote from:  ToT
So, with the forum having been down for a few days, do we discuss the prologue and chapter 1 of TDTCB over this week and keep to the planned schedule, or do we postpone it to next Sunday?

Of course, go on as planned. I read the Prologue and Chapter 1 last night. I plan to post my thoughts in a few. Just taking care of a sick kid (called from school), and my little terror (2 yr old) at the moment.

Quote from:  Madness
So just carry and do what you guys thinks makes sense, and we'll deal with the moderation side later, per usual. :)

What I like to hear, thank you.

Also, I figure forum would be back up soon enough, usually only a day when that happens.
Title: Re: ARC (A Real Chopper): Prologue & Chapter 1
Post by: Wilshire on April 09, 2018, 03:21:25 pm
Lol MSJ. You know, Madness and I are two different people. We've got enough trouble distinguishing ourselves without you misquoting :P.

Also, as Thelli (Our resident Timeline Wizard) mentioned via quorum, this read will take about 2.5 years. This convinced me that i should probably participate. I think there's still time for me to catch up, so I'll be participating.
Title: Re: ARC (A Real Chopper): Prologue & Chapter 1
Post by: MSJ on April 09, 2018, 03:23:11 pm
Prologue: Always same things strike me here. First one is the Bardic Priest. I believe he was Consult and knowing what we know from TUC the Dunyain eventually "take over" the Consult, the Duyain could very well been lead there by the Consult, Mek or the like.....and just forgot. They have the same exact goals. And, this was brought up many times wether there was one or not. We'll never know (and excusing any extratextual fact), it would make sense. Remember, we hear over and over that the Consult patience would bugger the imagination. Anyhow, an unknown, one that makes too much sense.

Chapter 1: Also, another thing that always strikes me in this chapter and even more so, this time. This, this opening chapter, is where Akka dreams begin to change.

Quote
Death and Prophecy of Anasûrimbor Celmomas. Same.

See my face and not S in mirror.

Quote
Different. More powerful.

Its the second that strikes me. He feels a change. In a around a year, he will be following around a super human, and Kellhus will talk to Seswatha maybe opening up this connection with Akka. If we stop and think in the metaphysics of Earwa, this was always going to happen. IMO, its only natural that a short time before that change, Akka feels it coming on.

Quote
Ink might be immortal, but meaning was not.

How ironic, dont ya think!
Title: Re: ARC (A Real Chopper): Prologue & Chapter 1
Post by: MSJ on April 09, 2018, 03:29:03 pm
Quote from:  Wilshire
Lol MSJ. You know, Madness and I are two different people. We've got enough trouble distinguishing ourselves without you misquoting :P.

Only meant it as the team that keeps this place going, and thanks for all you guys do.

Quote
Also, as Thelli (Timeline Wizard) mentioned via quorum, this read will take about 2.5 years. This convinced me that i should probably participate. I think there's still time for me to catch up, so I'll be participating.

Of course, it took me no time at all to read it and slowly. Also, this is the pace I wanted, to foster conversation at the site. Who knows, at some point we might have to up the amount per week, if Bakker got a book out..... Anyone, I think, should have time for this.
Title: Re: ARC (A Real Chopper): Prologue & Chapter 1
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on April 09, 2018, 04:27:43 pm
Lol MSJ. You know, Madness and I are two different people. We've got enough trouble distinguishing ourselves without you misquoting :P.

I have never seen the two of you in the same place, though... ;)


Also, as Thelli (Our resident Timeline Wizard) mentioned via quorum, this read will take about 2.5 years. This convinced me that i should probably participate. I think there's still time for me to catch up, so I'll be participating.

More details on that - I did the math assuming that, like we're doing right now at the start, prologues/interludes will get grouped with first/last chapters of the books they're in:
If the reread goes like this, there'll be a total of 129 weeks of discussion and we'd end TUC on September 20, 2020 (so yes, close to 2.5 years).


On Part I of the TDTCB prologue:
-Very predictably, I'm going for the genealogy & timeline nitpicks (I also predict everyone is going to get tired of this rather quickly...). I know that the idea of Celmomas surviving Eleneöt Fields somehow has been brought up before based on this passage:
Quote
Ganrelka's uncle, who'd led the heartbreaking assault on Golgotterath's gates in the early days of the Apocalypse, hung from a rope in his chambers, slowly twisting in a draft.
My timeline sorcery, as Wilshire put it, makes me really dislike the theory that Celmomas is Ganrelka's uncle. Celmomas was born in 2089. Ganrelka was born 15 years later in 2104. Celmomas was the High King and Ganrelka his heir, so it doesn't make sense for Ganrelka to have been the son of an older brother of Celmomas, because then he'd have been the High King if this hypothetical brother of Celmomas was dead. The age difference is already small enough for some people to doubt that Ganrelka was a son of Celmomas, so it doesn't make much sense for him to be the nephew of Celmomas via a younger brother, since then that brother would have had to be 14 or younger at the time of Ganrelka's birth. Of course, one can make the argument that Ganrelka could be a more distant relation and Celmomas' nephew by marriage...but that's entering too nitpicky a territory, even for me.
-I think this has also been brought up before, but I like the parallels and contrasts we have between the unnamed bastard boy and the Boy, aka Crabicus. One young boy becoming the first of a new Anasûrimbor line, the other being the last (at least from a generational point of view, since there are still other Anasûrimbor living). The bastard boy had recently lost his father at the time of the Dûnyain's arrival, and the Boy recently lost his father in the current series time. Ganrelka's son is not really an Anasûrimbor, in a way, as he's illegitimate; the Boy is not really a Dûnyain, in a way, as he's defective. And so on. It makes me wonder if there could be any clues for the Boy's future in the bastard boy's story?
-Has anyone ever discussed the fact that wolves might have some sort of symbolism in the story? (I know this has been discussed regarding trees, but that's all I can remember.) Off the top of my head, there's Cnaiür killing the wolf as a rite of passage in his flashbacks, the wolf carvings in Cil-Aujas, Sarl's "sometimes the dead bounce" rant (which also mentions wolves), Moënghus being described as the piglet raised among Anasûrimbor wolves... And here there's this passage:
Quote
Winter added its cold to the emptiness of Ishuäl. Propped on the battlements, the child would listen to the wolves sing and feud through the dark forests. He would pull his arms from his sleeves and hug his body against the chill, murmuring his dead mother’s songs and savouring the wind's bite on his cheek. He would fly through the courtyards, answering the wolves with Kûniüric war cries, brandishing weapons that staggered him with their weight.
It probably means nothing, but it just made me wonder.



Prologue: Always same things strike me here. First one is the Bardic Priest. I believe he was Consult and knowing what we know from TUC the Dunyain eventually "take over" the Consult, the Duyain could very well been lead there by the Consult, Mek or the like.....and just forgot. They have the same exact goals. And, this was brought up many times wether there was one or not. We'll never know (and excusing any extratextual fact), it would make sense. Remember, we hear over and over that the Consult patience would bugger the imagination. Anyhow, an unknown, one that makes too much sense.

That's an interesting idea, he definitely seems like a shady character, there could be more to him than we know.
Do we know if this is the same Bardic Priest that Akka mentions in his early TAE dreams (the ones with Seswatha's affair with the queen)? If so, he could very well be playing a long game, as that was decades before this prologue is set. After all, there was at least one Consult agent in Celmomas' court (Iëva), so why not more?
Title: Re: ARC (A Real Chopper): Prologue & Chapter 1
Post by: Wilshire on April 09, 2018, 06:10:46 pm
... the Bardic Priest. I believe he was Consult.
Interesting thought.
Is it strange that a bard is in Ishual at all? I mean, there's a limited number of people they are going to send, and they used up a slot for a bard? Though I guess he's the entertainment, Kings and their progeny must be entertained :P.

Though, that reasoning doesn't make a ton of sense. The Dunyain might have been a Consult project, but the bard here didn't survive to influence it. If the Dunyain were connected to the consult, it wouldn't have been this Bards doing.

He feels a change. In a around a year...
Bakker's comment about the timing of the dreams has always stuck out to me. We should be careful to catalogue dreams here. We'll be like the Mandate chronicling Seswatha ... lol

Quote
Ink might be immortal, but meaning was not.
How ironic, dont ya think!
A pretty common theme. Its the whole reason for the dreams, after all, because the Sagas don't hold captive the same way the Dreams do.


Lol MSJ. You know, Madness and I are two different people. We've got enough trouble distinguishing ourselves without you misquoting :P.

I have never seen the two of you in the same place, though... ;)
Luckily at least one picture does exist. Half the reason for Ishoiya and also ZDC was for us to verify we all exist ;) . You can come next time, that way we can make sure you exist.

Timeline
  • TDTCB has 19 chapters + prologue, so this reread goes on for 19 weeks.
  • TWP has 25 chapters -> 25 weeks.
  • TTT has 17 chapters -> 17 weeks (unless someone wants an extra week to discuss glossary details?)
  • TJE has 16 chapters + prologue and interlude, so I'm assuming we'll have 16 weeks of discussion (prologue being grouped with chapter 1 and interlude with chapter 16).
  • TWLW has 15 chapters + interlude -> again, assuming chapter 15 + interlude, so 15 weeks.
  • TGO has 17 chapters + prologue -> once again, chapter 1 + prologue, 17 weeks.
  • TUC has 20 chapters - 20 weeks (unless, like mentioned above for TTT, there is extra discussion on the glossary).
If the reread goes like this, there'll be a total of 129 weeks of discussion and we'd end TUC on September 20, 2020 (so yes, close to 2.5 years).
Awesome :) .

Quote
Ganrelka's uncle, who'd led the heartbreaking assault on Golgotterath's gates in the early days of the Apocalypse, hung from a rope in his chambers, slowly twisting in a draft.
In this passage Ganrelka's Uncle hung himself in Genrelka's chambers. Definitely not Celmomas.

-I think this has also been brought up before, but I like the parallels and contrasts we have between the unnamed bastard boy and the Boy, aka Crabicus. One young boy becoming the first of a new Anasûrimbor line, the other being the last (at least from a generational point of view, since there are still other Anasûrimbor living). The bastard boy had recently lost his father at the time of the Dûnyain's arrival, and the Boy recently lost his father in the current series time. Ganrelka's son is not really an Anasûrimbor, in a way, as he's illegitimate; the Boy is not really a Dûnyain, in a way, as he's defective. And so on. It makes me wonder if there could be any clues for the Boy's future in the bastard boy's story?
Thank you for pointing that out. So beautiful and poetic. Its moments like these that make the story so powerful.

-Has anyone ever discussed the fact that wolves might have some sort of symbolism in the story?
We'll have to keep track of Wolves this time (as well as trees ;) ).


... the Bardic Priest. I believe he was Consult a...
That's an interesting idea, he definitely seems like a shady character, there could be more to him than we know.
Do we know if this is the same Bardic Priest that Akka mentions in his early TAE dreams (the ones with Seswatha's affair with the queen)? If so, he could very well be playing a long game, as that was decades before this prologue is set. After all, there was at least one Consult agent in Celmomas' court (Iëva), so why not more?
A list of possible historic consult agents might be another entertaining thing to keep track of.
Title: Re: ARC (A Real Chopper): Prologue & Chapter 1
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on April 09, 2018, 06:38:57 pm
Interesting thought.
Is it strange that a bard is in Ishual at all? I mean, there's a limited number of people they are going to send, and they used up a slot for a bard? Though I guess he's the entertainment, Kings and their progeny must be entertained :P.

He was a Bardic Priest, though, maybe they made sure to save him for religious/cultural reasons? Granted, we don't have enough information to know what is exactly the role of a Bardic Priest in a king's court as opposed to a regular bard...


Bakker's comment about the timing of the dreams has always stuck out to me. We should be careful to catalogue dreams here. We'll be like the Mandate chronicling Seswatha ... lol

Who chronicles the chroniclers? :P
But seriously, this is a good idea. We have to keep note of these details to try to deduce more of Seswatha's goals. Though I'd guess that the dreams in PON have been discussed to death given how long it has been since these books were published.



Luckily at least one picture does exist. Half the reason for Ishoiya and also ZDC was for us to verify we all exist ;) . You can come next time, that way we can make sure you exist.

Definitely a goal I have, even if the distance makes it difficult.
Wait, my existence is in question?  :o TELL ME...WHO AM I?



Awesome :) .

Thanks! A true slog, but at least not as long as it could be if it was another fantasy series. There's an ASOIAF podcast that has recently started a one-chapter-a-week reread, that one is going to last over 6 years.



In this passage Ganrelka's Uncle hung himself in Genrelka's chambers. Definitely not Celmomas.

I should have clarified that better, but I'm sure I've seen the theory (can't remember if it was on the previous reread threads) that the uncle was Celmomas, who somehow survived the Battle of Eleneöt Fields only to die at Ishuäl. As we still don't know what the exact family relationship was between Celmomas and Ganrelka (has anyone asked Bakker this directly, by the way?), Celmomas could, in theory, be his uncle. I did want to bring it up, even if I personally don't believe it. Not only does the timeline not make sense, it would be unlikely to have Celmomas survive given what else we know (even if not impossible) and there would be no payoff to have Celmomas die of plague in Ishuäl. While there was indeed a point to the circumstances of Nau-Cayûti's death, I can't think of anything similar for Celmomas.



Thank you for pointing that out. So beautiful and poetic. Its moments like these that make the story so powerful.

They definitely have some similarities once you think about the two of them for a while... Another one is that they're both nameless, though not giving the bastard boy a name might not have been intentional in Bakker's part (only Ganrelka is named out of all the people who took refuge there).



We'll have to keep track of Wolves this time (as well as trees ;) ).

Wolves, trees and dreams. And can't forget Ajokli.



A list of possible historic consult agents might be another entertaining thing to keep track of.

This needs to be the new grand TSA conspiracy, forget about Moënghus and all of his secret identities. I kind of wish there was speculation on this in-universe, that would be quite entertaining.
Title: Re: ARC (A Real Chopper): Prologue & Chapter 1
Post by: MSJ on April 09, 2018, 06:56:03 pm
Thanks for input guys! Madness, BFK, Tao, TLEILAXU and others.....time to jump on in.
Title: Re: ARC (A Real Chopper): Prologue & Chapter 1
Post by: MSJ on April 09, 2018, 06:59:51 pm
I will take it upon myself to chronicle dreams and you guys can help dissect. As for wolves and trees, other must step up to the plate.
Title: Re: ARC (A Real Chopper): Prologue & Chapter 1
Post by: MSJ on April 09, 2018, 09:40:06 pm
(click to show/hide)

Just tagged to save space.

Title: Re: ARC (A Real Chopper): Prologue & Chapter 1
Post by: MSJ on April 09, 2018, 10:42:24 pm
(click to show/hide)

Akka's 2nd dream
Title: Re: ARC (A Real Chopper): Prologue & Chapter 1
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on April 09, 2018, 11:11:40 pm
I will take it upon myself to chronicle dreams and you guys can help dissect. As for wolves and trees, other must step up to the plate.

I'll keep an eye out for all future mentions of wolves.
Not sure if I want to bother with the trees, since it's something that has been discussed in this forum and in westeros.org (I think) many times before... I only brought that up as a point of comparison with the wolves.
Title: Re: ARC (A Real Chopper): Prologue & Chapter 1
Post by: Madness on April 09, 2018, 11:14:48 pm
I've been meaning to take a morning and sit down with the forum for almost a month now to catch up on posts. I'd like to say I'll be partaking frequently but no promises on my part.

Also, MSJ, for your efforts: Dreams (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=1104.msg11491#msg11491)

And bonus: Trees (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=1436.0), Trees (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=1001.0), and Trees (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=1997.0)
Title: Re: ARC (A Real Chopper): Prologue & Chapter 1
Post by: MSJ on April 09, 2018, 11:26:34 pm
I have a little theory spinning in my head, way to early to even begin to know if I'm right so I'll keep it to myself. But, yet something else I am chronicling. Ill just say I think it a good hunch.
Title: Re: ARC (A Real Chopper): Prologue & Chapter 1
Post by: H on April 10, 2018, 02:26:53 pm
Working my why through the Prologue.  I always entertained the idea that the Bardic Priest could have been part of the Consult, but there was always something that didn't fit right about that.  Mostly, that if he was, how did the Consult not know of Ishuäl sooner then?  Indeed, this is not proof, as we cannot ever know for certain if he was or wasn't.  I think the balance of plausibility leans toward him not actually being of the Consult, but rather a symbol of the moral (and maybe ethical) decline at the end of the world.  Not only that, but his framing, as a Bradic Preist, emplants the idea of a morally corrupt religious order, again, framed against the end of the world.  This is definitely evocative of a certain level of "Christian mythos" in the sense that the declining moral fiber is a sign of the End.

As for the latter part, with Kellhus, apart from the oddity of the whole endeavor (as in, why was Moënghus not in Ishuäl (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=2151.0) in the first place, why would they have risked allowing him or Kellhus to be out in the wild) is abut the role of the Logos.  The Logos (Biblically, the Word that forms Order from Chaos) is what grounds Kellhus, what the Dûnyain had used to master circumstance (and themselves and so their world) yet leaves him completely overwhelmed by the Choas that is the Wilderness.  Kellhus nearly dies attempting to figure out the pattern, discern what it is that he is seeing, logically, in the wild.  It's only once he finds the ruins, does he "return to himself" in a sense, seeing his own reflection and his wild visage, reawkens in him the words with which to tame the wild (both internal and external).  Kellhus no longer meanders in the wilderness now, he runs, because he realizes it is not the proper state of his being, it is Chaos.

When he meets Leweth, the depth of the Logos becomes clearer.  It isn't just "logic" as we'd describe it.  Leweth displays the order, "Each thing had its place, he would tell Kellhus, and those things out of place portended disaster." but fails in the fact that his evocation of Order is not Truthful, which Kellhus later unmasks.  This shows that the Logos isn't just "cimply" order, but is Truthful Order, the proper and factual ordering of the world.  And it shows, through his breaking of Leweth, that the Truth (and so the Logos) has power.

The Sranc and ensuing death of Leweth point to the depth of the Chaos that is Eärwa.  Then, culminating in the encounter with a Nonman, we are presented with the fact, yes fact, that the Logos is not all that there is.  This will actually be returned to much much later in the series, as PoN is really Kellhus (and The Logos) ascendant.
Title: Re: ARC (A Real Chopper): Prologue & Chapter 1
Post by: TLEILAXU on April 10, 2018, 08:52:46 pm
The Bardic Priest is NOT a Consult agent, cease this madness! Also, was it ever confirmed directly by Bakker that the Nonman Kellhus encounters in the prologue is Cet'ingira? I remember there was some confusion about "ridden both against and for the No-God".
Title: Re: ARC (A Real Chopper): Prologue & Chapter 1
Post by: H on April 11, 2018, 10:19:37 am
The Bardic Priest is NOT a Consult agent, cease this madness! Also, was it ever confirmed directly by Bakker that the Nonman Kellhus encounters in the prologue is Cet'ingira? I remember there was some confusion about "ridden both against and for the No-God".

Yeah, extra-textually he said it was Mekeritrig.  He also, extra-textually had said that the line should have said "ridden both against and for the Consult."
Title: Re: ARC (A Real Chopper): Prologue & Chapter 1
Post by: Wilshire on April 11, 2018, 11:35:06 am
The Bardic Priest is NOT a Consult agent, cease this madness! Also, was it ever confirmed directly by Bakker that the Nonman Kellhus encounters in the prologue is Cet'ingira? I remember there was some confusion about "ridden both against and for the No-God".

Yeah, extra-textually he said it was Mekeritrig.  He also, extra-textually had said that the line should have said "ridden both against and for the Consult."

What was that, like 10 ... or even close to 15 years ago he said that? lol.
Title: Re: ARC (A Real Chopper): Prologue & Chapter 1
Post by: H on April 11, 2018, 11:54:27 am
The Bardic Priest is NOT a Consult agent, cease this madness! Also, was it ever confirmed directly by Bakker that the Nonman Kellhus encounters in the prologue is Cet'ingira? I remember there was some confusion about "ridden both against and for the No-God".

Yeah, extra-textually he said it was Mekeritrig.  He also, extra-textually had said that the line should have said "ridden both against and for the Consult."

What was that, like 10 ... or even close to 15 years ago he said that? lol.

A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away...I think it was in the Pat's Fantasy Hot List interviews?
Title: Re: ARC (A Real Chopper): Prologue & Chapter 1
Post by: TheCulminatingApe on April 11, 2018, 07:46:58 pm
My thoughts.
The Prologue is far better than Chapter 1, which contains a lot of clunky exposition.

Prologue: Always same things strike me here. First one is the Bardic Priest. I believe he was Consult and knowing what we know from TUC the Dunyain eventually "take over" the Consult, the Duyain could very well been lead there by the Consult, Mek or the like.....and just forgot.
I don't think he's in the Consult, but his line "there are no crimes when no one is left alive seems to foreshadow what the Consult are all about, i.e. if they kill enough people, then there is not enough judgement to cause damnation.

When the Dunyain are celebrating at the end of Prologue 1, are they celebrating finding Ishual, or a live Anasurimbor, or both?

Prologue 2 implies that the Dunyain live in a world where everything is predictable and to a large extent predetermined.  There a line about them knowing hows leaves would fall (or something similar).  The chaos of the world outside seems to awaken emotion in Kellhus - stuff about the sweetness of water and the beauty of sunlight which seems to surprise him.  Talks to his father in his head - doesn't seem like Dunyain rationality - the first inklings of his 'madness'

Then there's the line where he says he will make the people his instruments, and that he would possess all peoples and all circumstances.  It's there in black and white.  That's what he's been about all along.  At the end, from the encounter with the non-Man, we now know that he intends to learn sorcery.

Chapter 1.  Tells us Akka is not that good a spy - i.e. not great at deceiving people.  He's been sussed out by his informant and by the skin-spy
Title: Re: ARC (A Real Chopper): Prologue & Chapter 1
Post by: MSJ on April 11, 2018, 09:58:16 pm
Quote from:  TCApe
Chapter 1.  Tells us Akka is not that good a spy - i.e. not great at deceiving people.  He's been sussed out by his informant and by the skin-spy

Yea, I think he's slipping, certainly. Because of Geshrunni knowing, picking it apart. But, at this point in the story, be a easy thing for a skin spy to suss ya out. Their unheard of.
Title: Re: ARC (A Real Chopper): Prologue & Chapter 1
Post by: Wilshire on April 12, 2018, 01:07:47 pm
I love that Kellhus tells us he sees the Mark on the nonman and the sorcery it wields. It wasn't until much after my first read that I caught that. Kellhus doesn't have the words to describe the wrongness of it - but he's definitely of the Few from the start.
Title: Re: ARC (A Real Chopper): Prologue & Chapter 1
Post by: H on April 12, 2018, 02:24:22 pm
So, chapter 1 doesn't live up to the Prologue, which is arguably the best chapter in a Fantasy novel ever.

A curious line here:

Quote
Bodies tumbling through the knotted waters of a river cataract. A lover grunting blood through clenched teeth. Fire wrapped like a wanton dancer about stone towers.

It's framed oddly, because those are scenes from three Dreams (presumably) and Akka has only told us of three Dreams: the Fords of Tywanrae, the Burning of the Library of Sauglish, and the Death and Prophecy of Anasûrimbor Celmomas.  So, then, the first "vision" is clearly the Fords, bodies clogging a river.  The second, makes no sense to be the Burning, especially when the thrid so explicitly features fire.  So, then, plausibly the "lover grunting blood" is Celmomas.  Could it be that Seswatha seduced both Celmomas and his wife?

The rest of the chapter is somewhat unremarkable, aside the fortuitous timing of Akka's being recalled.  Although, in light of us knowing that there was a Skin-Spy in the Mandate, possibly even at this point, was this really a coincidence?  On first reading, my presumption is the Akka has a "narrow miss" with the Skin-Spy, but considering that already knew of him, knew his location and his identity, Akka was allowed to continue the whole time.  Akka being recalled and Geshrunni being killed is not a coincidence at all, or just some manipulation of "fate" but rather a direct Consult plan to use Akka to garner information.
Title: Re: ARC (A Real Chopper): Prologue & Chapter 1
Post by: BeardFisher-King on April 13, 2018, 12:01:28 am
BFK's ARC: TDTCB, Prologue

(Note: A lot of my questions and comments are just rhetorical. I'm trying, not very successfully, to maintain the illusion of a first-time careful reader.)

I agree with H, the Prologue is excellent.  An introduction to the Dûnyain and to Kellhus.

Prologue, first part, notes:

1. The Dûnyain are already in pursuit of "awareness most holy" when they arrive at Ishüal, and have repudiated the Gods.  They deliberately obliterate all records and evidence of sorcery. (pg. 4). What could they be up to?

2. Dûnyain: "We are Dûnyain, child. What reason could you have to fear us?"
Boy: "So long as men live, there are crimes!"
Dûnyain: "No, child. Only so long as men are deceived."

(Deception, we soon learn, is an art that the Dûnyain have mastered.)

3. The Dûnyain celebrate their discovery of Ishüal as a great correspondence of cause. What is a correspondence of cause? Who are these Dûnyain?

Prologue, second part, notes:

Generally, just an first-rate introduction to Kellhus. It is very difficult not to identify him as our hero. Even his abandonment of Leweth seems .... necessary. We learn about Dûnyain methods, the Probability Trance, and Kellhus' ability to read persons and to craft, through his words and expressions, responses that will enable him to "come before" all men and all circumstances. Superhuman also in physical ability. Defeats his Nonman adversary (one of my favorite scenes) as he defeats the Sranc. But he is nearly undone by....sorcery! Surprise!

 During the interrogation of Leweth, Kellhus views sorcery as just another of Leweth's myths. Leweth, like all men, does not know what comes before. And then comes this line: "But what came before, the Dûnyain had learned, was inhuman." (pg. 17) Inhuman? What could this mean?

Title: Re: ARC (A Real Chopper): Prologue & Chapter 1
Post by: MSJ on April 13, 2018, 01:39:37 am
Quote from:  BFK
3. The Dûnyain celebrate their discovery of Ishüal as a great correspondence of cause. What is a correspondence of cause? Who are these Dûnyain

Its part of the reason I believe they was sent there. Think on it. The Bard would have survived if not for a very pissed off young boy. Brought a disease with him to clean house? And, lo and behold, a secret redoubt for the Dunyain. Truly, a great correspondence of cause, or a Consult plan they fucking forgot about because Mek is a Nonman. (I'm just saying, really no evidence that makes it a fact, but evidence keeps piling up that it could of been a Consult long game.).

Quote from:  BFK
During the interrogation of Leweth, Kellhus views sorcery as just another of Leweth's myths. Leweth, like all men, does not know what comes before. And then comes this line: "But what came before, the Dûnyain had learned, was inhuman." (pg. 17) Inhuman? What could this mean.

Legion. Passion, envy, spite, etc, etc. Hell, in Earwa's scheme of things, the 100....
Title: Re: ARC (A Real Chopper): Prologue & Chapter 1
Post by: Wilshire on April 13, 2018, 12:40:22 pm
(Note: A lot of my questions and comments are just rhetorical. I'm trying, not very successfully, to maintain the illusion of a first-time careful reader.)
Noted ;)
I agree with H, the Prologue is excellent.  A
If the prologue wasn't so amazing I never would have finished TDTCB. I struggled to finish it up until about 75% of the way through, and the prologue is what kept me going.

2. Dûnyain: "We are Dûnyain, child. What reason could you have to fear us?"
Boy: "So long as men live, there are crimes!"
Dûnyain: "No, child. Only so long as men are deceived."

(Deception, we soon learn, is an art that the Dûnyain have mastered.)
This is actually a really great line on a reread.
On the face of it, the Dunyain's goal is to illuminate the darkness of ignorance. Ostensibly then, this line means that the Dunyain mission once achieved will end all crime and rid the world of evil.
So interesting how that pans out. There's probably a lesson in there somewhere. Something about how singular pursuit corrupts even the most noble goals.

What is a correspondence of cause?
To me it sounds to be an archaic, 'fantasy-y', way of saying coincidence. That said, there are some interesting search links if you look up that phrase:
https://www.startpage.com/do/search?q=correspondence+of+cause

Title: Re: ARC (A Real Chopper): Prologue & Chapter 1
Post by: BeardFisher-King on April 13, 2018, 05:01:29 pm
Quote from:  BFK
3. The Dûnyain celebrate their discovery of Ishüal as a great correspondence of cause. What is a correspondence of cause? Who are these Dûnyain

Its part of the reason I believe they was sent there. Think on it. The Bard would have survived if not for a very pissed off young boy. Brought a disease with him to clean house? And, lo and behold, a secret redoubt for the Dunyain. Truly, a great correspondence of cause, or a Consult plan they fucking forgot about because Mek is a Nonman. (I'm just saying, really no evidence that makes it a fact, but evidence keeps piling up that it could of been a Consult long game.).

Quote from:  BFK
During the interrogation of Leweth, Kellhus views sorcery as just another of Leweth's myths. Leweth, like all men, does not know what comes before. And then comes this line: "But what came before, the Dûnyain had learned, was inhuman." (pg. 17) Inhuman? What could this mean.

Legion. Passion, envy, spite, etc, etc. Hell, in Earwa's scheme of things, the 100....
I'm thinking more along the lines of your "Consult long con" theory. Is this line a hint from Bakker that the Dûnyain (who have repudiated the Gods) have learned that the Apocalypse is being driven by inhuman forces? Have they plumbed the depths of the Consult? What is the extent of the Dûnyain's mundane knowledge?
Title: Re: ARC (A Real Chopper): Prologue & Chapter 1
Post by: H on April 13, 2018, 05:27:41 pm
I'm thinking more along the lines of your "Consult long con" theory. Is this line a hint from Bakker that the Dûnyain (who have repudiated the Gods) have learned that the Apocalypse is being driven by inhuman forces? Have they plumbed the depths of the Consult? What is the extent of the Dûnyain's mundane knowledge?

I think "inhuman" here might hark back to earlier in the chapter, where Kellhus experiences himself nearly "going feral" and needs a reminder than he is not an animal.  What comes before, as far as the Dûnyain are concerned, is inhuman, i.e. primitive and animalistic, unvoiced and a-linguistic.  The Logos is what sets them apart from the animals; literally The Word(s).
Title: Re: ARC (A Real Chopper): Prologue & Chapter 1
Post by: TheCulminatingApe on April 13, 2018, 07:27:33 pm
But, at this point in the story, be a easy thing for a skin spy to suss ya out. Their unheard of.

Not necessarily.  Just because he's not aware of them doesn't mean they know what he is.

The rest of the chapter is somewhat unremarkable, aside the fortuitous timing of Akka's being recalled.  Although, in light of us knowing that there was a Skin-Spy in the Mandate, possibly even at this point, was this really a coincidence?  On first reading, my presumption is the Akka has a "narrow miss" with the Skin-Spy, but considering that already knew of him, knew his location and his identity, Akka was allowed to continue the whole time.  Akka being recalled and Geshrunni being killed is not a coincidence at all, or just some manipulation of "fate" but rather a direct Consult plan to use Akka to garner information.

However, I forgot about the skin-spy in the Mandate, in which case they would know what he was - and where. 

Wouldn't a skin-spy Geshrunni give access to the Scarlet Spires rather than to Akka?
Title: Re: ARC (A Real Chopper): Prologue & Chapter 1
Post by: TheCulminatingApe on April 13, 2018, 07:35:28 pm
BFK's ARC: Prologue

(Note: A lot of my questions and comments are just rhetorical. I'm trying, not very successfully, to maintain the illusion of a first-time careful reader.)

I agree with H, the Prologue is excellent.  An introduction to the Dûnyain and to Kellhus.

Prologue, first part, notes:

1. The Dûnyain are already in pursuit of "awareness most holy" when they arrive at Ishüal, and have repudiated the Gods.  They deliberately obliterate all records and evidence of sorcery. (pg. 4). What could they be up to?

2. Dûnyain: "We are Dûnyain, child. What reason could you have to fear us?"
Boy: "So long as men live, there are crimes!"
Dûnyain: "No, child. Only so long as men are deceived."

(Deception, we soon learn, is an art that the Dûnyain have mastered.)

3. The Dûnyain celebrate their discovery of Ishüal as a great correspondence of cause. What is a correspondence of cause? Who are these Dûnyain?

Doesn't cause have a more specific meaning to the Dunyain?  Also to me it seemed ambiguous as to whether they were celebrating the discovery of Ishual or of the Anasurimbor boy. 
Title: Re: ARC (A Real Chopper): Prologue & Chapter 1
Post by: H on April 13, 2018, 07:45:24 pm
However, I forgot about the skin-spy in the Mandate, in which case they would know what he was - and where. 

Wouldn't a skin-spy Geshrunni give access to the Scarlet Spires rather than to Akka?

Not only that, but recall that skin-spies can somehow see "Chigra" in Mandate schoolmen.  Even without the Mandate confederate on their side, the skin-spy could probably find a Mandati in seconds.  But no doubt the insider information made it even easier to find him in the first place.

As for replacing Geshrunni, well, we know that at some point the Scarlet Spires are infiltrated, so Geshrunni's death at the end of the chapter is probably the beginning of that.
Title: Re: ARC (A Real Chopper): Prologue & Chapter 1
Post by: BeardFisher-King on April 13, 2018, 09:32:29 pm
I'm thinking more along the lines of your "Consult long con" theory. Is this line a hint from Bakker that the Dûnyain (who have repudiated the Gods) have learned that the Apocalypse is being driven by inhuman forces? Have they plumbed the depths of the Consult? What is the extent of the Dûnyain's mundane knowledge?

I think "inhuman" here might hark back to earlier in the chapter, where Kellhus experiences himself nearly "going feral" and needs a reminder than he is not an animal.  What comes before, as far as the Dûnyain are concerned, is inhuman, i.e. primitive and animalistic, unvoiced and a-linguistic.  The Logos is what sets them apart from the animals; literally The Word(s).
That's a sound interpretation, H. What I like is that Bakker, in this introduction to the Dûnyain, gives us a little chill of foreboding. "Inhuman" has many implications. It could imply that "what comes before" are those powerful, mechanistic forces of custom and heredity to which the un-Conditioned man is subject. That's my guess, but I like feeding the "Consult long con" theory.  ;)

3. The Dûnyain celebrate their discovery of Ishüal as a great correspondence of cause. What is a correspondence of cause? Who are these Dûnyain?

Doesn't cause have a more specific meaning to the Dunyain?  Also to me it seemed ambiguous as to whether they were celebrating the discovery of Ishual or of the Anasurimbor boy. 
You're right about the ambiguity, CA. In fact, building on your thought, the "great correspondence of cause" that the Dûnyain refugees are celebrating is the "co-incidence" (thanks, Wilshire!) of these two events. Nailed that one down, folks!
Title: Re: ARC (A Real Chopper): Prologue & Chapter 1
Post by: BeardFisher-King on April 14, 2018, 05:21:09 pm
BFK's ARC: TDTCB, Chapter One

Some brief thoughts:

Bakker's choice of Drusas Achamian as primary POV for this chapter of exposition is necessitated by the fact that the Mandate sorcerors know more, especially about the past. So the exposition that the story needs can proceed concisely and dramatically, thanks to the Dreams. Very clever and astute of Bakker.

A glimpse of the enemy! The removal of Geshrunni's face links us to the Nonman's cloak of faces in the Prologue.

Prologue Body Count: Innumerable
1. The entire population of Ishüal save the surviving Anasûrimbor Prince.
2. Numerous Sranc.
3. Leweth.
Chapter One Body Count: 1 (Geshrunni)
Title: Re: ARC (A Real Chopper): Prologue & Chapter 1
Post by: mostly.harmless on April 15, 2018, 12:47:43 pm
Sorry, 80 hour workweek threw a wrench in my plan to read this last week.

Prologue I is still the best (prologue) I've ever read.
Prologue II a close second as a character introduction so well done we're still mining it for hidden meaning and revelatory information.

I have no qualms with the Bardic Priest, that is, I don't think he is a consult agent. Not everything can have meaning and two survivors from the plague out of a whole household is a reasonable outcome (in my eyes). I think it's not auspicious to give a slot to the bard/priest. He fullfils two roles, so he's doubly useful.

The dunyain's arrival though. That is the greater mystery I hope to solve. A random (?) monastic order that just happens to find a sorcerously hidden redoubt (that 'even the no-god can't assail' - this intrigues me but I'm not sure what to make of it) asking for help.
I am not a big fan for the Consult having set this up, simply because it doesn't make sense at that point to do so. They're winning, the no-god is on his rampage. Why hedge your bets? If you know of your main antagonist's fallback plan, you take that out the moment you're winning or make your move to tip the scales.

Maybe the point is that it doesn't matter and it really is a coincidence. Chasing down the wrong rabbit hole.

Or maybe, and this is a big maybe, Seswatha made this his backup plan. Why on earth he would send monks though is beyond me. Maybe he thinks knowledge and study is power and this particular cult lend themselves well to being set on this path, and their values and ideas are the kind of ruthlessness the world would need if the no-god wasn't stopped? Like a nothing-to-lose-by-doing-it-anyway kind of plan. You set it in motion and it might pay off or you might never hear from it again.

Akka's chapter indeed feels clunky after those prologues. Almost as if they were written by a different person.  Nothing to add to what has already been discussed.

Sent from mobile using Tapatalk

Title: Re: ARC (A Real Chopper): Prologue & Chapter 1
Post by: H on April 16, 2018, 02:19:41 pm
That's a sound interpretation, H. What I like is that Bakker, in this introduction to the Dûnyain, gives us a little chill of foreboding. "Inhuman" has many implications. It could imply that "what comes before" are those powerful, mechanistic forces of custom and heredity to which the un-Conditioned man is subject. That's my guess, but I like feeding the "Consult long con" theory.  ;)

It could also be considered a little Easter egg of sorts, since we will later learn that what really comes before is well and truely inhuman altogether.

Not sure about a Consult long-con though, since I've usually maintained that the Consult position is pretty logical and technically correct.
Title: Re: ARC (A Real Chopper): Prologue & Chapter 1
Post by: Wilshire on April 16, 2018, 03:54:16 pm
The skin spy replacements are for a couple things.

One is to place people high up so the Consult have top level information about everything going on.

Another is to screw with the Mandate. The Mandati have fallen into I'll repute - this is probably not just because the Consult is hidden, but because the skinspies themselves are at top levels and telling everyone to disreguard them. It's a two pronged assault.

Another reason for the skin spies is to replace the spies of the Mandate - all the ones they haven't yet killed. This allows then to feed false or confusing info to the Madate and effectively control every source of data they have. Another dual assault.

In addition, it also let's the Consult spy in turn on the Mandate. The Consult only have the one spy wlinsude the Auorum (I assume), and probably recently (last few years?). They have probably been replacing spies for centuries as a way to figure out what info the Mandate knows. It also allows to discover information, like if the Mandate are suspicious of their replacements, what lies they listen to from the Consult, etc.etc.


With all that in mind, the replacement of Geshrunni was probably for at least several reasons. The-Thing-Called-Geshruni would probably provide a new, useful, source of info to the Consult about the SS and about Akka (and in effect the Mandate).
Title: Re: ARC (A Real Chopper): Prologue & Chapter 1
Post by: H on April 16, 2018, 05:47:36 pm
Yeah, not just controlling the flow of information that the Mandate can get, but also to make sure that the Mandate doesn't know anything they don't.  If you know what your enemy knows, you can easily plan accordingly.
Title: Re: ARC (A Real Chopper): Prologue & Chapter 1
Post by: MSJ on April 16, 2018, 06:24:32 pm
Quote from:  H
Not sure about a Consult long-con though, since I've usually maintained that the Consult position is pretty logical and technically correct.

H will never indulge my crazy theories. Lol. I am 1 for 100.......Kellhus loved Esme. At least I got that. ;)
Title: Re: ARC (A Real Chopper): Prologue & Chapter 1
Post by: TLEILAXU on April 16, 2018, 07:56:06 pm
The skin spy replacements are for a couple things.

One is to place people high up so the Consult have top level information about everything going on.

Another is to screw with the Mandate. The Mandati have fallen into I'll repute - this is probably not just because the Consult is hidden, but because the skinspies themselves are at top levels and telling everyone to disreguard them. It's a two pronged assault.

Another reason for the skin spies is to replace the spies of the Mandate - all the ones they haven't yet killed. This allows then to feed false or confusing info to the Madate and effectively control every source of data they have. Another dual assault.

In addition, it also let's the Consult spy in turn on the Mandate. The Consult only have the one spy wlinsude the Auorum (I assume), and probably recently (last few years?). They have probably been replacing spies for centuries as a way to figure out what info the Mandate knows. It also allows to discover information, like if the Mandate are suspicious of their replacements, what lies they listen to from the Consult, etc.etc.


With all that in mind, the replacement of Geshrunni was probably for at least several reasons. The-Thing-Called-Geshruni would probably provide a new, useful, source of info to the Consult about the SS and about Akka (and in effect the Mandate).
Geshrunni is not replaced though, since his corpse is later found by the Scarlet Spires (and Elearazas makes a point of his missing face to Achamian) IIRC.
Title: Re: ARC (A Real Chopper): Prologue & Chapter 1
Post by: JerakoKayne on April 16, 2018, 08:08:53 pm
It lets them spy, and to control the spies, certainly. But it lets them influence the Mandate more directly, too. I don't think the-thing-called-Simas was a recent replacement at all. The spies have existed for several centuries at least, and at least appear not to suffer age. An anomalous skin-spy that can detect sorcery likely would have been noticed early. It has probably replaced several generations of Mandati. I don't think it's any coincidence at all that Achamian is part of a faction (or at least a particular class) of Mandati that are skeptical the Consult, and that he was trained by one! It's probably been there the whole time, subtly teaching Mandate neophytes to undermine their own mission by not believing in it.

On those thoughts, this chapter strikes me in a couple of different ways. Firstly, that from the very beginning Akka is presented as being a terrible spy. The only "real" informant (that we at least see) in fact is an informant because he saw through Akka immediately. I suspect the vast majority of his previous informants (if any) were skin-spies themselves, though even if they weren't this chapter makes clear they at least constantly follow him.

It's an interesting coincidence that one of the first real tidbits they do get from a real informant is actually indirectly related to the Consult. The Spires/Cishaurim conflict began with the detection of the skin-spies. The Mandati don't know this yet, of course, and it's not surprising in the least that Geshrunni is immediately removed after sharing it. I am surprised, however, that Geshrunni is killed, and not replaced.

We later learn that Geshrunni is discovered, and it's absurd to think that wasn't intentional. The spies must excel at disposing of the bodies in order to replace them, so it follows that the discovery of Geshrunni's body really was desired. But why faceless, if not attempting to replace that face?

If Geshrunni is meant to be discovered, he was meant to be discovered that way, else why not make it seem like a 'normal' murder? It's perhaps a bit convoluted, but I think maybe the Consult meant to give that info to the Spires. Through their war, the Spires have the potential, at least, to discover that their enemy first attacked because of these very strange faceless spies. Though they obviously haven't discovered this yet, were they to do so at some point following, they would now have information about the Mandate being connected with a bizarre, faceless murder, as well.

I like it because it's insidious. Some skin-spies have already been discovered, and if that information begins to spread the suspicion goes directly to the Consult's enemy.
Title: Re: ARC (A Real Chopper): Prologue & Chapter 1
Post by: TLEILAXU on April 16, 2018, 08:24:58 pm
Actually it's maybe not so surprising that he wasn't replaced when we later learn that even the king/emperor of High Ainon is a skin spy himself. They're probably quite well dispersed in this nation.
I agree that the murder and mutilation of Geshrunni was probably intentional to sow further seeds of conflict.
Title: Re: ARC (A Real Chopper): Prologue & Chapter 1
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on April 26, 2018, 04:12:14 pm
I'm sorry for "abandoning" the reread for a while, but I've been busy with classes and other things lately. I still wanted to make some comments on the second part of the prologue and chapter 1, so here they are, even if way too late.


Prologue Part II

Kellhus' initial fallibility has been the subject of many comments/discussions, but it's something that is almost amusing on a reread. The Dûnyain might have some quasi-supernatural skills, sure, but going out into the world really drove Kellhus into an almost-fatal sensory overload.
Quote
On the morning of the twenty-ninth day, he crouched on rocks green with moss and watched salmon leap and pitch against a rushing river. The sun rose and set three times before his thoughts escaped this inexplicable war of fish and waters.
He was completely mesmerized by fish for over three days. Three days! The ignorance of the outside world imposed by the first Dûnyain did not work to Kellhus' advantage at all, he was insanely lucky he found another human to manipulate (assuming that the theory of this being Moënghus' "conditioned ground" is not true) before he died in the wilderness.
Quote
He would come to them as one awake. He would shelter in the hollows of their ignorance, and through truth he would make them his instruments. He was Dûnyain, one of the Conditioned, and he would possess all peoples, all circumstances. He would come before.
Big words for a man who recently nearly died due to his own ignorance, Kellhus. Amazing when you compare the Kellhus of TAE to this early version of him, it's almost like a completely different character.

Quote
"Should you not fear me, mortal, knowing what I am? Fear too is power. The power to survive."
Quote
"It baits me! The mortal baits me . . . It reminds me, reminds . . ."
Is it just me, or is Mekeritrig's behaviour/choice of words here very different from the Nonmen we find in the rest of the series, and even from his own later appearance in TUC? While this is a great scene, I can't help but think his dialogue sounds like it's coming from a more stereotypical, classic villain. Maybe it's just the use of the word "mortal", which I don't remember happening in other books?
Quote
"ANASÛRIMBOR!" an unearthly voice called, cracking the winter silence.
"RUN, ANASÛRIMBOR!" it boomed. "I WILL REMEMBER!"
This is a nice parallel to Ajokli-Cnaiür confronting the Whirlwind at the end of TUC.

Quote
Cold night fell. Somewhere in the dark, wolves howled. Shimeh, they seemed to say, was too far.
And we close out the prologue with another mention of wolves.


Chapter 1

Random initial thought: Akka is in Carythusal, where, unbeknownst to him (or any of us as first-time readers), teenage Mimara is also living at this point in time. Maybe that one guy who showed her the whales is still around, she does seem to remember being quite young at that time.

I agree with the general sentiment that this chapter isn't nowhere near as good as the prologue, it does get rather clunky at times. Still, it's not bad, and doesn't really throw you out of the story - at least it didn't for me the first time I read it.

Quote
The Worm was filled with wolves, desperate men who followed mark after mark searching for those drunk enough to be safely plundered.
Mention of wolves #3 and counting. And yes, I'll be counting both actual and metaphorical wolves.

Quote
Burning of the Library of Sauglish. Different. See my face and not S in mirror.
This is probably the most interesting bit of the chapter on a reread, as it has been said, definitely a sign that Akka's dreams did not change only after becoming a Wizard. But could there be anything else to it, any further connection between Seswatha and Akka that we still don't know that is responsible for the different dreams? (besides the fact of Akka taking the Seswatha role at the end of TUC, that is)


Quote
I was meant to suffer, Achamian thought.
Absolutely true, and Anagkë is not finished with you yet, Akka... (this is also a fairly amusing line because of out it works in and out of universe)
Title: Re: ARC (A Real Chopper): Prologue & Chapter 1
Post by: Wilshire on April 27, 2018, 07:03:26 pm
Kellhus ludicrous journey to Momemn is quite the comedy of errors up until he meets Proyas and starts to actually do his Dunyain thing.

This chapters is but the first of many totally ridiculous things that Kellhus gets through prior to joining up with society.

Quote
He was Dûnyain, one of the Conditioned, and he would possess all peoples, all circumstances. He would come before.
Big words for a man who recently nearly died due to his own ignorance, Kellhus. Amazing when you compare the Kellhus of TAE to this early version of him, it's almost like a completely different character.
lmao.
Quote
I was meant to suffer, Achamian thought.
Absolutely true, and Anagkë is not finished with you yet, Akka... (this is also a fairly amusing line because of out it works in and out of universe)
:( Poor guy.