[Wilshire]

[EDIT: I know Duskweaver's pointed out the "branching tears" but anyone notice the "flutter of" metaphor as Inrau first hears the Synthese's wings... Thinking of the Cishaurim showing up the Scarlet Spires.]

Are you suggesting that the reason that the Cish so fully dominated the SS during open conflict was because there was an Old Name secretly fighting for them? Or did I totally miss the mark there...

[Madness]

Borric had started another thread to ask if the Consult could have been apart of the attack by the Cishaurim - I was offering a piece of evidence towards that theory (which I don't support).

[Wilshire]

Hmm maybe I missed that topic. Kinda came outta left field ...

[Madness]

Who attacked the Scarlet Spires and why?

However, I have heard others state their assumption that the Consult carried out the attack.
That the consult were concerned about a recent development at Shimeh.
Namely the Chishaurims ability (actually its Moe’s Dunyain ability) to discover their skin spies.
And that’s why they were attempting to manipulate Xerius into assisting the Holy War.
If it was the consult, why could Eleazaras see no blemish from sorcery?
Who exactly were these eyeless assassins if not Cishaurim?

That's part of how Borric started off but the topic quickly veered.

[mrganondorf]

Mimara's Judging Eye still seems so problematic for me.  I think it likely that Bakker put it in the story, among other reasons, to give the reader an ultimate measure of morality in Earwe.  The Judging Eye would confirm or disprove other's assessments.  BUT, I think it's also possible Bakker is throwing us for another loop--that the Judging Eye is no more reliable than anything else--only showing Mimara/Reader the illusion of damnation/salvation.  An Ajokli thing.

It all leads up to the moment that she confirms the information from the Inverse Fire giving Kellhus no reason to think that x is not damned triggering some kind of irreversible action.  Old Moe laughs from the shadows because he saw true with the third sight.

[Madness]

It all depends on whose eye judges? I think we're meant to believe that Mimara's Judging Eye provides a universal rule by which to measure but it could be inherently flerwed.

[mrganondorf]

Suddenly struck by how *negotiable* damnation appears to so many characters.  You are damned UNLESS...you are caught by your ancestors (Zeum)...you hide your voice (Titirga/Nonmen)...you reach for the Goddess (Naneferi)...you seal the world (Consult).

[Callan S.]

Sit still and accept eternal torture instead?

[mrganondorf]

Sit still and accept eternal torture instead?

WELL, when you put it like that... 

[Wilshire]

Sit still and accept eternal torture instead?

Suddenly struck by how *negotiable* damnation appears to so many characters.  You are damned UNLESS...you are caught by your ancestors (Zeum)...you hide your voice (Titirga/Nonmen)...you reach for the Goddess (Naneferi)...you seal the world (Consult).

Yatwer doesn't promise salvation. The main advantage is that you know your torturer before you get there... So doing nothing/something doesn't necessarily have different outcomes.

[mrganondorf]

Perhaps there are no hells and no heavens per se in the Outside, just various realms.  If you're in one you want to be in, it's heaven!  If not, sucks for you.  Yatwerians in Yatwer's Crib just kick it in lounge chairs.  Non-yatwerians in Yatwer's Crib are food for the people in the lounge chairs.

[Wilshire]

Pretty sure Yatwer says she tortures her disciples, and they know it. Could be wrong though. I think maybe a select few are spared, the true believers, but most everyone else is food (i.e. endlessly tortured).

[Cüréthañ]

+1 MG and Wilshire; that could be it, I think.  Does that mean the damned are an energy source. like a reverse Matrix thing?

[Madness]

Does that mean the damned are an energy source. like a reverse Matrix thing?

+1 - that's be cool and Bakkerish.

[mrganondorf]

+1 MG and Wilshire; that could be it, I think.  Does that mean the damned are an energy source. like a reverse Matrix thing?

An energy source that Yatwer uses to ascend to the Meta-Outside?!?