[Jackehehe]

Hello everyone!

I just finished my first re-read of the whole series and I have to say that, in a way, I actually enjoyed reading the books MORE this time. Simply amazing, I have much to thank Bakker for, what a splendid author.

Anyway, when I read the battle between Akka and Nil'giccas (secretly hoping they'd just reconcile and be friends, despite knowing differently!) I ponder how it was possible for Akka to strike Nil'giccas down. Supposedly, Nil'giccas is one of the most powerful beings alive. I get Akka isn't your ordinary schoolman either, but really? Though, Akka seems to be distracting Nil'giccas by saying that he wouldn't strike him, and then directly after that hitting him with a concussion cant so I guess Akka had the element of surprise but still. What are your thoughts on this encounter?

Also, is it only me who is secretly hoping for some kind of redemption of the nonmen? Such a tragic fate, theirs is.

[Duskweaver]

You've answered your own question, really. It doesn't matter how powerful a sorcerer is if he's distracted and therefore not singing right now. Relative power only matters when two sorcerers are actively duelling, cants against wards (and when that was happening, Nil'giccas clearly had the upper hand). If neither sorcerer has any wards up, it all comes down to reaction times. The impression I get from whenever they're described in the books is that concussion cants are very simple and quick to sing, so the distracted Nil'giccas just didn't have time to do anything about it before he was knocked out of the sky. Akka also got incredibly lucky, in that there was a convenient bit of ruined wall right there for Nil'giccas to hit. If the nonman had landed on something softer, Akka would probably have been toast.

There is also the theory that Nil'giccas let Akka kill him, of course, but I don't personally see a need to invoke that in order to explain what happened.

[Jackehehe]

I see. Well, I guess I am a little disappointed then in the way his life ended. It just feels that his might warrants a more epic death hehe. Any thoughts on what Akka meant when he told nil'giccas that he had found glory?

[Wilshire]

This might be an interesting read for you. Its certainly a good question.

"The Cleric Suicides..."
http://second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=456.0

For myself, I'm on the fence a bit. It sounds pretty lame, to me personally, to believe that he just decided to die. Entirely possible but I simply don't like it

EDIT:
Also, Dusk, there are definitely wards that act as semi-permanent barriers once they are sung. Incipiant wards right? Remember when the Skin-Eaters are attacked by the Stone Hags and Akka's wards save him from arrows at the start of the fight? He wasn't singing at all or even thinking about it. There should not have been any reason for Cleric to have no wards at all hanging around. Unless he just forgot... but that would be so erratic of him.

[Madness]

Hello everyone!

I just finished my first re-read of the whole series and I have to say that, in a way, I actually enjoyed reading the books MORE this time. Simply amazing, I have much to thank Bakker for, what a splendid author.

Anyway, when I read the battle between Akka and Nil'giccas (secretly hoping they'd just reconcile and be friends, despite knowing differently!) I ponder how it was possible for Akka to strike Nil'giccas down. Supposedly, Nil'giccas is one of the most powerful beings alive. I get Akka isn't your ordinary schoolman either, but really? Though, Akka seems to be distracting Nil'giccas by saying that he wouldn't strike him, and then directly after that hitting him with a concussion cant so I guess Akka had the element of surprise but still. What are your thoughts on this encounter?

Also, is it only me who is secretly hoping for some kind of redemption of the nonmen? Such a tragic fate, theirs is.

Lol +1. I was basically fist-pumping and hollering around the house when Achamian offered to be Nil'giccas' elju! Still gives me shivers imagining the tag-team fun they would have on their adventures.

Also, definitely hoping for redemption of the Nonmen - this seems to be what Kellhus actually offers the Nonmen of Injor-Niyas in sending them Serwa... a womb for their Race.

If the nonman had landed on something softer, Akka would probably have been toast.

Wilshire does raise a good point about the Incipent Wards but Nil'giccas is Erratic... Also, I don't think anyone was expecting the anti-climatic ruined wall scenario, especially as Nil'giccas' end!

I see. Well, I guess I am a little disappointed then in the way his life ended. It just feels that his might warrants a more epic death hehe. Any thoughts on what Akka meant when he told nil'giccas that he had found glory?

Lies to ease Nil'giccas' passing?

[Somnambulist]

Not sure where this belongs, but found it interesting considering we are led to believe that Nil'giccas was mean to be the Last Nonman King.

From TTT glossary:

Nin-Ciljiras (?- )—The last surviving Nonman King.

Who the hell is that?  While Nil'giccas' entry is:

Nil’giccas (?- )—The Nonman King of Ishterebinth.

Are they the same person, different names?  Or are we looking at another Last Nonman King?  Is there a distinction being made between the nonmen of Ishterebinth and the rest of the nonmen?  Just a authorial slip?  Also, what up with apostrophe vs. dash in nonman names?  Nil'giccas vs. Nin-Ciljiras.

[Alia]

For me the way it is written would suggest that there is a difference between the king of Ishterebinth and the king of Nonmen.

However, there are also things that are probably authorial slips - like the name of Celmomas's unfaithful wife changes between TTT and JE (from Sarash to Suriala).

[mrganondorf]

BUMP, BUMP, BUMP -- I WANT TO KNOW THIS TOO!

Possibilities:
1) What Alia just said--which was awesome, never considered that the difference might be with an all-king and a single mansion king
2) Bakker mistake
3) Synonyms
4) Cleric was unkinged between entries?
5) deliberately screwing with the reader to make glossary unreliable
6) Nin-Ciljiras: Last surviving nonman king...of erratics? of intact? of some other qualifying thingy?

[JerakoKayne]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Ishteribinth the single surviving Mansion anyway? So king of one would likely be king of the other, no?

I found Cleric's explanation satisfactory, that the Nil-Giccas persona is dead. Also possible is that Nin-Ciljiras' tenure could be a sort of regency. We don't yet know how the Intact view their Erratic brethren, but even if they do continue to revere him and consider him "alive," it seems unlikely they would accept the rule of an Erratic (who is more likely to be interested only in their destruction, for memory's sake, rather than their management).

[Madness]

I always screw this up but...

In TWP, Aurang mentions to Maengi (Sarcellus the Second) that there is little Nin-Ciljiras does in Ishterebinth that is secret from them, which suggests that Nil'giccas hasn't ruled in Ishterebinth, and has possibly been wandering, since the First Holy War or longer.

[mrganondorf]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Ishteribinth the single surviving Mansion anyway? So king of one would likely be king of the other, no?

I found Cleric's explanation satisfactory, that the Nil-Giccas persona is dead. Also possible is that Nin-Ciljiras' tenure could be a sort of regency. We don't yet know how the Intact view their Erratic brethren, but even if they do continue to revere him and consider him "alive," it seems unlikely they would accept the rule of an Erratic (who is more likely to be interested only in their destruction, for memory's sake, rather than their management).

Makes me wonder how the consult-erratics are ordered--do they have a king?

@ Madness - I remember exactly the part you mean, but I can't for the life of me remember if it was Nil or Nin

TUC PREDICTION: When all seems lost, Serwa challenges Nin-Ciljiras to a 1v1 duel to the death!!!!  Or maybe Moe/Sorweel does if Nin is ishroi but not quya.

[Cüréthañ]

Only hint about Nin-Ciljiras from Z3c's.

Mithifanion -
Scott, could you say who or what is Nin-Ciljiras? He (or it) is mentioned by the Inchoroi...
Cujara Cinmoi (Scott)-
He's a character in The Aspect-Emperor...

And here's an old thread from the previous iteration of this site where we indulged some speculation on this subject.

http://second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=885.0

[Alia]

@ Madness - I remember exactly the part you mean, but I can't for the life of me remember if it was Nil or Nin

This is at the very end of Chapter 15, to be precise:

“Perhaps … But we have spies—even in Ishterebinth. There is little that Nin-Ciljiras does that we don’t know. Very little.”

[Madness]

That thread explains my thoughts perfectly, Cüréthañ. Thanks.

And thanks, Alia, for the quote.

But yeah... I still figure that Nil'giccas isn't home. Someone... Nin'Ciljiras, maybe... is pretending to rule in Nil'giccas stead.

And when Achamian busts in wearing Nil'giccas armour, the escalated situation surrounding the arrival and subsequent courting of Anasurimbor Serwa will be blown into battle.

[mrganondorf]

Thanks Alia and Curethan!

It's interesting that Nin-Ciljiras is someone who needs to be watched in TWP and then Cleric says that Isterebinth has fallen to tyrrany in WLW.  Does this suggest that Nil'giccas left before TWP but has since received word of the fall?  I suppose he could be far-calling home sometimes.

Nin-Ciljiras must be pretty fucking awesome to warrant Consult spies.  I wonder if he is erratic/dead/rebelling/or imprisoned.  The Aurang talked about the nonmen, it seemed that there was a slight possibility to Aurang that the nonmen could be developing some surprises--would love for Aurang to have his hubris exposed!