[TGO Spoilers] Explaining Koringhus

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« Reply #60 on: August 17, 2016, 03:09:31 pm »
So raping a child and killing her by suffocating her to shut her up are sins that can be redeemed?

You're right - sounds heinous, themerchant.

But... the alleged options are Redemption, Oblivion, or Damnation. Redemption only comes through sin.
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The Sharmat

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« Reply #61 on: August 18, 2016, 01:14:13 am »
Mimara forgiving that is extremely Christian. In Christian morality, severity of the crime has nothing to do with whether or not it should be forgiven. I also thought it showed something extremely powerful in Mimara's character, that she could see something so horrible and still forgive it.

I tend to think she literally absolved him of that last sin even in the eyes of God, since it seems appropriate to the narrative and theme at work here. But it's far from concrete. And I'm pretty sure he's still so damned from everything else he did that he's being devoured by Ciphrang anyway.

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« Reply #62 on: August 19, 2016, 11:29:04 pm »
I have a gargantuan amount to say on this topic (and several others that intertwine with it), which I'm still working on compiling into something intelligble. That being said, I will drop a suggestion here in regards to Mimara's Judgement vs The God's Judgement, which is:

What's the difference?

Put it another way: Mimara is the ring-bearer -- er, I mean she has the Judging Eye not so much because there's something special about Mimara herself exactly, but because Mimara perpetrates the Will of the God simply by being Mimara. Is someone damned because Mimara thinks they are? Yes and no. The same goes for so-called redemption -- though I think a better word might be Absolution, for that is what she (and/or the God) truly offers. An invitation to join the Absolute -- which itself is one and the same with Oblivion.

Likewise, I think this way of thinking can be applied equally to Kellhus. For all his Dunyain and sorcerous abilities -- which are mighty indeed -- he is still, ultimately, "just a man" (in one of his POV's in TGO he even describes how Men see him, with "two hands and one intellect" in reference to his halos, which is also perhaps the first real revelatory glimpse at the meaning/nature of his ever-mysterious halos themselves). Kellhus's will and actions are indistinguishable from the will and actions of the God Itself, though neither Kellhus nor Mimara need be fully aware of this fact.

It is, perhaps, no coincidence that the only characters we see bearing such halos are Kellhus and Mimara.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2016, 08:46:33 am by Ciphrank »

MSJ

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« Reply #63 on: August 20, 2016, 12:46:12 am »
I agree with this 100% Ciphrank. Though, only thing I'd add to it is that I do think something is special about Mimara. I really think Cleric's remembering of that name is significant. Also, Nayu asking Clemommas who Mimara was are both clues to that fact.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

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« Reply #64 on: August 20, 2016, 02:16:49 am »
Haha yeah, I actually do agree there is indeed something special about both Mimara and Kellhus (and numerous other characters for that matter) beyond their possible divine influence -- hell, even if they are "just" vessels for the will of the Zero-God(des) then, well, they're still rather special. I think that paradoxical attribute is quite intentional though, and in fact sort of applies to a lot of Earwa's general nature at large. The mundane physics of Earwa seem increasingly similar to our own in a broad sense, and I'm inclined to believe that anywhere else in that universe OTHER than Earwa would be virtually identical to our own world, at least until one "digs too deep" into the fundament of reality (through scientific progress) as the Inchoroi did.

I agree with this 100% Ciphrank. Though, only thing I'd add to it is that I do think something is special about Mimara. I really think Cleric's remembering of that name is significant. Also, Nayu asking Clemommas who Mimara was are both clues to that fact.

Whoa, so the name "Mimara" appears in a historical context? I either forgot that or never knew it -- the Cleric bit rings a bell but I don't recall the other instance. Any idea where that pops up? (I totally believe you I'm just curious to read the section).
« Last Edit: August 20, 2016, 02:18:55 am by Ciphrank »

MSJ

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« Reply #65 on: August 20, 2016, 03:50:15 am »
@Ciphrank, in TJE I believe when Akka is having the dream about Ishual and at the end Nayu asks Cel who Mimara is. This coincides with Akka waking up and Cleric asking about Mimara. Some think it's the real world bleeding into Akka's dream, I do not. I think it's a subtle slight of hand by Bakker.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

The Sharmat

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« Reply #66 on: August 21, 2016, 08:04:05 am »
Aurang seemed quite interested in her as well, perhaps at least in part because of her name.

geoffrobro

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« Reply #67 on: December 29, 2016, 03:40:52 pm »
"At last he could see it-the sideways step that gave lie to Logos.
This is one of the last inner POV thoughts koringus has and it reminds me of the ability of the WLW.
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« Reply #68 on: December 29, 2016, 05:25:08 pm »
"At last he could see it-the sideways step that gave lie to Logos.
This is one of the last inner POV thoughts koringus has and it reminds me of the ability of the WLW.

I think the sideways step is the one that takes you out of the "loop" of cause and effect.  The Logos fails because the Law of Before and After is actually untrue, this is why Moe the elder dies.  Stepping "off the track" puts you in a place where it might not be clear where you are heading, as it would if you could only move forward or backwards on that track.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

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« Reply #69 on: January 06, 2017, 03:24:07 pm »
"At last he could see it-the sideways step that gave lie to Logos.
This is one of the last inner POV thoughts koringus has and it reminds me of the ability of the WLW.

I think the sideways step is the one that takes you out of the "loop" of cause and effect.  The Logos fails because the Law of Before and After is actually untrue, this is why Moe the elder dies.  Stepping "off the track" puts you in a place where it might not be clear where you are heading, as it would if you could only move forward or backwards on that track.
Basically flatland. Like if he was a 2 dimensional being who realized he could step sideways into the 3rd dimension.
Same idea, except he's a 3 dimensional being, stepping into a 4th.
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« Reply #70 on: January 06, 2017, 03:50:52 pm »
"At last he could see it-the sideways step that gave lie to Logos.
This is one of the last inner POV thoughts koringus has and it reminds me of the ability of the WLW.

I think the sideways step is the one that takes you out of the "loop" of cause and effect.  The Logos fails because the Law of Before and After is actually untrue, this is why Moe the elder dies.  Stepping "off the track" puts you in a place where it might not be clear where you are heading, as it would if you could only move forward or backwards on that track.
Basically flatland. Like if he was a 2 dimensional being who realized he could step sideways into the 3rd dimension.
Same idea, except he's a 3 dimensional being, stepping into a 4th.

Right, except it's a little more tricky to conceptualize, because it's all still in the same dimension.

Possibly conceptualize the chain of cause and effect as a literal chain, where each link of cause hooks right to another of effect (only some links may lead to more than one link, but they are all still chained to each other) and pulls you (the present) from the past (cause) to the future (effect).  The sideways step is to get off the flow from link to link and travel outside of the deterministic pull of link to link.  No link before you, no link after, means you can't be pulled in either direction and can be "free."

At least that analogy makes sense in my mind.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

Quietside

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« Reply #71 on: January 17, 2017, 04:28:31 pm »
I think H hits it pretty much right on the head: Koringhus' leap is important precisely because it was his. In the moment he makes the leap he is free of the threat of damnation (the worldborn view of the Absolute) and has penetrated the lie of the Logos. In short he can make his choice without fear of consequence or driven by the momentum of what comes before. In that moment he becomes a self-moving soul, thus the reference to becoming one with the absolute for the space of an insight (horrific misquote/reference, but books aren't handy and I've had no sleep)

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« Reply #72 on: January 17, 2017, 04:42:29 pm »
I think H hits it pretty much right on the head: Koringhus' leap is important precisely because it was his. In the moment he makes the leap he is free of the threat of damnation (the worldborn view of the Absolute) and has penetrated the lie of the Logos. In short he can make his choice without fear of consequence or driven by the momentum of what comes before. In that moment he becomes a self-moving soul, thus the reference to becoming one with the absolute for the space of an insight (horrific misquote/reference, but books aren't handy and I've had no sleep)

Welcome to the forum Quietside!

I can't really claim responsibility for the theory, just repeating what I heard others who are more well versed in philosophy say and how it makes sense to me.  Indeed though, I think you are right, that moment is key because he has been "forgiven" and so is "pure" from damnation (or considering the whale mothers, a sort of "original sin") making it something of an optimal time to pass to the Outside (I guess?).

This is in pretty stark contrast to what we see Inrilatas doing though, which is an interesting thing to think about.  But perhaps that is about a difference in means rather than a difference is ends?
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

Quietside

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« Reply #73 on: January 17, 2017, 05:01:06 pm »
Thanks for the welcome!

 This particular chapter is one of the most interesting to me and I think it may actually be the key to the metaphysical riddle presented in the series. I'm about to embark on another re-read of the books since it looks like there's a pretty firm release date for TUC. Once I've grabbed a couple hours of sleep I'll see if I can put my thoughts together as complete, intelligible sentences and share them.

The shortest path verison of what I'm thinking: The Outside is a lie, the logos is a lie, all are one. The Eye doesn't forgive Koringhus, it simply approves of his insight.

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« Reply #74 on: January 17, 2017, 05:12:35 pm »
You seem intelligible enough to me ;) Welcome to the forum.
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