[What Came Before]

"At long last, Ishual ... The sum of so much toil and suffering.

Its once grand bastions overturned. Its curtain walls struck to their foundations.

Another dead place" (WLW, p914)

The last lines of The White-Luck Warrior...

But what can it mean?!

[What Came Before]

Well the obvious reasons are either Kellhus destroyed Ishual or the Consult did it. Both seem probable but there is another theory.The Dunyain themselves destroyed and then abandoned their ancient sanctuary after they learned about Moenghus survival. Sure they sent Kellhus to eliminate him but they couldn't be sure of his success and their secrecy was over anyway. So where are they now?Hmmm.....who knows?  :shock:

[What Came Before]

Possibilities:

1. Moenghus was in the North to summon Kellhus, he destroyed Ishual after Kellhus left and shadowed Kellhus' journey to Leweth, ensuring his survival through the most perilous part of his path as well as ensuring his education from a reliable source and fount of information.

2. Kellhus destroyed Ishual in between the trilogies for obvious reasons.

3. The Consult discovered and destroyed Ishaul in between the trilogies for obvious reasons

4. The Dunyain destroyed Ishual at some point after Kellhus left and are either hiding or have moved on to other environs.

[What Came Before]

Another not mentioned idea: Ishual has looked this way for some time, at least on the "outside". The walls are in disrepair, struck to their foundations could also mean more than just "they are gone". Perhaps the dunyain have dug themselves into the mountain long ago so that even if they were discovered, they would look like little more than a ruined castle.

Also "obvious" is a terrible word to use. When has anything ever been obvious.

Or maybe I'm just complaining because I feel stupid for not knowing why it would be Kell's obvious choice. Do explain.


Anyways, what does it mean?
How about what do I want first:
It would be sweet to see an army of dunyain. It just would. Several dozen elite dunyain warriors, each with chorea to negate that pesky magic. That would be awesome.
However, I find this extremely unlikely to happen.

What I think probably happened:
I think that the consult found them. Like the beginning of TDTCB, one cannot guard against a secret. The Consult never looked, so they never found. Once they knew that something was there to be discovered, they would search tirelessly until they found it. Obviously (  ) once there they would destroy the place, burn it to the ground.
However, I have a hard time believing any force on Earwa could destroy a contingent of Dunyain. Thats not to say they survived unscathed, but there had to be some kind of plan of escape. I cannot believe they were all killed.

I think there is a plethora of information dumping that will go on about the dunyain, perhaps in the form of flashbacks from survivors running to wherever they are going.

[What Came Before]

5. Ishual was only ever a dream...

Nah, just messin'!

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Or maybe I'm just complaining because I feel stupid for not knowing why it would be Kell's obvious choice. Do explain.

"You are Dunyain still, Father."

"As are --"

The eyeless face, once perfectly obdurate and inscrutable, suddenly twitched in the ghost of a grimace.  Kellhus pulled his knife from his father's chest, retreated several steps.  He watched his father probe the wound with his fingers, a weeping perforation just beneath his rib cage.

"I am more," the Warrior-Prophet said.

[What Came Before]

So he has daddy issues, doesn't mean he hates his entire village.

[What Came Before]

For the record, I think that one of the aforementioned theories will turn out to be correct. 

I love lockesnow's theory about Moenghus, but I doubt it.  Kellhus or the Consult seem the most likely, and I'd leave open the door for the possibility that the Dunyain simply left. 

Let me throw out one other:  The Nonmen of Ishterebinth did it.  I can't say why, but they aren't far away, and Ishual is quite possibly connected to an older mansion.  "Ish" means exalted in the old Nonman tongue.

[What Came Before]

I like the nonmen intermission theories. Can't decide if they are reasonable, but I like them. Kinda assumes that the nonmen are involved in the dunyain history, which, again, I cant decide.

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So he has daddy issues, doesn't mean he hates his entire village.

If he said "You are father still, Dunyain"  I'd agree with you (and laugh at him for sounding like an idiot).  The text seems pretty unambiguous: Kellhus killed his father for being a Dunyain.

Re-reading that section again, it's pretty amazing just how unambiguous Kellhus's whole motive seems to be: war against the No-God and save the world.  So why is it that so many of us readers seem to share this nagging suspicion that all is not what it seems?

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I think he said he is more than a Dunyain. The more decided this about his dad and attached history, certainly. Not sure it's just about Dunyain perse.

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What I think probably happened:
I think that the consult found them. Like the beginning of TDTCB, one cannot guard against a secret. The Consult never looked, so they never found. Once they knew that something was there to be discovered, they would search tirelessly until they found it

I agree with this.
Do you remember the scene at the end of the Warrior Prophet where Aurang? Is systematically torturing and questioning men dragged in from some southern village?
His repeated question was simple, “who are the Dûnyain?”
The search had begun in earnest.

Btw, someone offered an option that the ruins of Ishuäl are old.
That can’t be the case, we get a description from Kellhus as he leaves Ishuä in at the start of the first book.
And he does not describe ruins as I recall.

[What Came Before]

Very little is actually said about the outward appearance of Ishual. Almost all of what we know is about the internal workings, i.e The Thousand Thousand halls and the room of faces. The external walls, battlement, castle, all of this is a mystery. Kell may leave, but what does he say about when he leaves? He doesn't even look back or tell us about the leaving, mostly just that he simply left. And not to mention that Ishual is exceedingly old by human standards. All of the ruins that Akka explores are from a similar time period, and a lot of them are completely destroyed, down to their foundations if you will.

To clarify, Aurang was interrogating his prisoners north of the Sea of Cerish (which is East not south), and I believe it was near Myclai (thought this is the only map marker in that area so I could just be making that part up). But that's largely irreverent, it shows that the consult were looking, hard, to find Ishual. If they found a tiny band of wandering nomads in the northeastern wastes of Earwa, they certainly could find a Citadel stronghold, secret or not.

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If the Dunyain are responsible for Ishual's destruction then I believe it happened since Kellhus left Ishual as a measure against his returning and interfering with The Project, a la Moenghus.

I've also voiced ideas in the past about the Thousand Thousand Halls simply being an extension of Ishterebinth from the Mansion's former glory and Mimara and Achamian, wearing Nil'giccas armor, simply wander into a living Mansion.

I've been challenged on this by a friend who doesn't partake in online discussion but I think we agreed to disagree due to the ambiguity of the relevant passages (or he just proved me wrong, perhaps) - he argues that the Thousand Thousand Halls are explicitly built by the Dunyain.

However, locksnow mention the when of the Dreams and now Borric and Wilshire are forming this conclusion in the Nau-Cayuti Dreams thread, so I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest the new theory that:

Bakker is going to drop a bomb on us real early on in TUC and Mimara and Achamian are going to find the Heron Spear in Ishual because that's where Seswatha hid it!

[What Came Before]

.Kell may leave, but what does he say about when he leaves? He doesn't even look back or tell us about the leaving, mostly just that he simply left.

Umm.
Yeah he does look back, and he does comment.
 It’s in the prologue to the darkness that comes before, so it should be easy for us to find.

There was also another comment during Kel’s memories of his childhood training.
When he was outside, and the proctor was teaching them combat training.
But i can’t remember in which book that was, or where.