The Gods, the God of Gods, and the Solitary God

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SkiesOfAzel

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« Reply #30 on: March 22, 2014, 07:35:38 pm »
Wow, Thorsen's posts were amazing, it makes me feel so sad that i was not a part of the amazing three seas community. Thanks for the archive Madness, you are doing a great thing here :).

My take on the God and the metaphysics in general is that it cannot be explained through physics, because the inclusion of metaphysics creates contradictions and inconsistencies. But if you regard The word and the God as a complex closed system you don't have this issue. You can even explain time inconsistencies with emergence. I will try to form a detailed explanation on my take on the nature of God and the Gods, but it will take a lot of time, because i want to make it accessible to everyone without the need of prior knowledge.

What i will say now, is that the God of Gods and the Solitary God are different entities. The God of Gods is a subsystem of the solitary God. Since it can interact with the world it shares some characteristics with Gnosticism's Demiurge, although it's not certain it's the creator of the material world. The Solitary God is a transcendent being. If you consider the SG a system, i it can't interact with the world, because the world is the internal part of him. It's also debatable if it even has an identity, because as a single being it has no watcher to define it.

For those that think this is confusing, when i write a detailed post i will use mundane examples and shapes to help you visualize it and make it less abstract.

mrganondorf

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« Reply #31 on: March 23, 2014, 01:02:34 am »
What if Bakker throws us for a complete loop when it's revealed that, yes of course, there are real gods for Earwa, but Yatwer is the only one that people have got right.  There is no Ajokli, whatever war is called, whatever disease is called (don't have the books on hand).

SkiesOfAzel

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« Reply #32 on: March 23, 2014, 03:00:52 am »
If the Gods are the shadows cast by the human unconscious it doesn't matter all that much if they got them right or not. Even Yarwer isn't what most of her worshipers think she is.

Madness

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« Reply #33 on: March 23, 2014, 11:33:25 am »
Wow, Thorsen's posts were amazing, it makes me feel so sad that i was not a part of the amazing three seas community. Thanks for the archive Madness, you are doing a great thing here :).

Just to be clear, you're talking about the actual this archive - The Zombie Three Seas, which was preserved by SovinNai here, the admin of the original forum. There are so many more posts there than what are preserved here.

For those that think this is confusing, when i write a detailed post i will use mundane examples and shapes to help you visualize it and make it less abstract.

It's really too bad FB isn't around. You and he would get along, SOA.
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SkiesOfAzel

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« Reply #34 on: March 23, 2014, 12:58:04 pm »
I didn't know about the forum archive either. That's nice :). I started reading a little and i already have a new signature!

[EDIT]
Btw, who is FB?
« Last Edit: March 23, 2014, 10:34:04 pm by SkiesOfAzel »

SkiesOfAzel

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« Reply #35 on: March 23, 2014, 10:23:27 pm »
Here, I will attempt to give you my take on the metaphysics of Earwa, without using any terms from science or philosophy. Before talking about the Gods, let’s take some time to do some ground work.

A human is considered a single entity, but why is that? A human being is formed by matter. Matter forms his organs and those organs form the human being. But all those materials are many, so what makes a human something which is singular and different than the sum of its parts? The answer is emergence.

Emergence is a phenomenon that can happen when two elements form a relation. The classic example to describe emergence is that of a molecule of water. A hydrogen atom has certain characteristics and the same applied to an oxygen atom. But the molecule of water has characteristics that didn’t originate from any of those atoms that are its materials.

With that new found knowledge, let’s try to answer why a human being is consider a single entity. Well, because it has a sense of identity, an ego and a consciousness. Those characteristics are not directly related to any single one of his parts, but are characteristics born from the relations between those parts.

Now it's time to take a vacation to Earwa. The first thing that catches the eye here is that on Earwa morality is not subjective at all. There is judgment, there is an afterlife and there is damnation. There are also two major religions here, but what are they about?

Both religions agree that there is a material world and a conceptual world. The conceptual world is the home of beings called Ciphrang. Those beings hunger for souls and are responsible for punishing the souls of sinners. This is also the home of the Gods. The Gods reward their faithful by snatching their souls when they die and saving them from damnation.

According to Inrithism, there are a hundred Gods that represent important aspects of human life. Those Gods can interact with their followers in the physical world and their followers can interact with the Gods through prayer. Since the interaction goes both ways, the Gods are shaped by their followers and the followers are shaped by their Gods. The Gods represent human concepts, so their own parts are human ideas.

Inrithism also promotes the idea of a higher entity, the God of Gods. According to Inrithism the God of Gods is the sum of all souls, including the Gods. So if every soul is a vector, the God of Gods is the single equivalent vector of all souls. Since every ensouled creature in Earwa can interact with every other ensouled creature, the God of Gods knows itself infinitely and defines itself. It is also considered immanent, which means that it is a part of, and interacts with the world. This implies purpose, a plan which can translate to fate.

Fanimry on the other hand doesn’t accept the hundred as Gods. The hundred are seen as Ciphrang instead. Now this is more a matter of semantics than anything, the hundred love their souls like the lesser Ciphrang, but they also offer respite from damnation. Fanimry also disagrees with the nature of God.

According to Fane, the God is transcendent and singular. But what does that mean? Well the Solitary God does in no way interact with the world and is a single entity. But if every soul is a part of the God how can this be? Simple, it’s emergence again. Like a human being, the Solitary God is not only defined by the sum of souls, but also by their relations to one another and the new characteristics those create. But why doesn’t he interact with the world? Again, like a human being, he can’t interact with his parts, because they are out of “sight”, he is unaware of them. But if he is singular, how can he have an identity and a purpose? Without other beings to interact with he can’t. Thus he has no purpose. So if you wonder why the Chissaurim aren’t marked, it’s because they recall the memory of the Solitary God to do their miracles and you can't go against the will of a being that has no purpose.

I will probably do another post about fate as a system’s purpose, including feedback mechanisms, the circle of death and rebirth, and probably the nature of time.   
« Last Edit: March 23, 2014, 10:32:45 pm by SkiesOfAzel »

Madness

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« Reply #36 on: March 24, 2014, 01:48:58 pm »
Francis Buck, SOA.

And good post. Look forward to your thoughts on Fate.
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SkiesOfAzel

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« Reply #37 on: March 24, 2014, 04:24:24 pm »
The fate part might take a while, i am kind of busy in real life trying to write a paper. Anyway, A point i forgot to mention about the Earwan religions is that the Nonmen belief system shares similarities with Fanimry. The Nonmen also worship a transcendent being, or to be more accurate a being that transcends them. Emergence creates properties that are not accessible to the smaller parts that form the relations which create them. The Nonmen acknowledge their limitations and worship something that is more than they are, and this more is a product of emergence.

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« Reply #38 on: March 25, 2014, 10:20:10 am »
Technically, wouldn't the Nonmen worship the ineffable which transcends them, not a being per say? Like the Tao except speaking the name has made it not-Tao - though, it could turn out that the Solitary God always exceeds knowing.

Good luck on your paper.
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SkiesOfAzel

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« Reply #39 on: March 25, 2014, 11:51:16 am »
Technically, wouldn't the Nonmen worship the ineffable which transcends them, not a being per say? Like the Tao except speaking the name has made it not-Tao - though, it could turn out that the Solitary God always exceeds knowing.

Good luck on your paper.

Yes, it's not the same religion for certain, but what they worship is also part of the Solitary God. I just think the common factors between religions are interesting.

mrganondorf

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« Reply #41 on: May 13, 2014, 12:39:56 pm »
If reality yields to belief in Earwa, I wonder if someone's been running a long term project to reshape the Outside via human religion.  Perhaps the Hundred is the natural state and Sejenus began to coalesce the entities into one, Fane was some kinds of Hegelian antithesis, and Kellhus is the synthesis.  Kellhus is working the last move to create the Absolute, as all gods joined as one.

If he requires believers, then maybe he's attempting to have the No-God return (the 20 years between TTT and TJE was actually forestalling a move against Golgotterath and advertising his new faith as wide as possible) so all will be convinced of his mission.  He'll die, be born again (maybe he could come back via possessing Kelmomas) and lead humanity to victory!

Strange: In this crackpot, Kellhus is aiming to kill the one thing the Nonmen worship, the spaces in between the gods.