The Second Apocalypse
Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The Great Ordeal => Topic started by: Ciogli on July 22, 2016, 05:54:04 am
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I think it is highly suspicious that of the four that left Ishual only the child is left nameless, all that time and no one even mentions his name. I think this will be a big reveal in the TUC, Kellhus was a prodigy among the Dunyain and Koringhus was also a prodigy. The boy was defective only because of his emotions not because of his innate gifts. If the pattern holds he could be even greater than his father and grandfather, but not as emotionally stunted. If their is a time jump between TUC and the series that shall not be named, he could be the new Kellhus. His talents were blunted because his father could not properly teach him in the ruins of Ishual.
Because he is Dunyain he knows the goal of Mimara and Achamian, and he would continue to move north to intercept them if they were to escape. The world is strange to him and along with his talks with his father he would seek to find them. He would probably shadow the Scylvendi to find the duo, and because they are on foot the Scylvendi would quickly leave them behind and he could make contact.
It is Achamians nature to teach and on their journey he would teach him as he taught his grandfather, if they reach the Ordeal then he might even fall under the guidance of Kellhus. With Serwa they could have a family reunion, although the time seems to be short. It might be the true reason that Bakker came up with the Achamian break with Kellhus and his journey to Ishual was so he could pick up the boy and bring him into the story proper. Or at least a major reason, along with the twins that Mimara will bare, the new protagonists of the next series.
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I can't recall but I'm almost sure there is a quote on Zombie Three Seas regarding a time-jump between TAE and TSTSNBN.
Given the existence of Anagke, I find it interesting that the Survivor marvels at having survived the Thousand Thousand Halls encumbered as he was having to protect a newborn.
I don't really see why the Boy wouldn't rejoin Achamian and Mimara. As others have mentioned, I'd really like the Boy and Kelmomas to meet.
Otherwise, he might run into Sarl and his Beard :o .
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I've been thinking on the Boy and his name also. I don't believe he ever got a name at Ishüal because he was a defective. I think that Mimara will name him. Either through something she glimpses through the JE or just because.
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I thought the boy was just physical defective (the crab hand) other then that he is just a untrained Dunyain.
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Could the Son be an indicator of the Gods' intervention? They can't see the No God, but they can see Khellus. It seems the Judging Eye opens when necessary, not when asked, which means it probably has some connection to the Gods. If the boy was meant to survive, it explains the Survivor's un-Dunyain behavior to him, and eventual salvation (?) at the end of his life. So could the Gods have chosen the Son to be their agent? Of what...I don't know know, maybe the next book.
Also, unless every Dunyain was named Anasarimbor, which is a real possibility, what logical evidence does the Surivior know it was his son? Seems to be a guess based on feeling and fatherly instinct, something lacking in the Dunyain.
Was there is a reason why Moeghus called his son (was there any way to know Khellus was his, outside of Cnaiur's memory, but the only other Dunyain adult we have met alive was horribly scarred, they could be clones for all we know) or did his simply call the most promising and talented of that generation?
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It is Achamians nature to teach and on their journey he would teach him as he taught his grandfather, if they reach the Ordeal then he might even fall under the guidance of Kellhus. With Serwa they could have a family reunion, although the time seems to be short. It might be the true reason that Bakker came up with the Achamian break with Kellhus and his journey to Ishual was so he could pick up the boy and bring him into the story proper. Or at least a major reason, along with the twins that Mimara will bare, the new protagonists of the next series.
Lol, for some reason when I read this, it felt kind of innocent and cosy-like! Family reunions etc.
Nah but interesting topic tbh. As I understood it a third "triology" is more or less decided, right? Assuming there will be a time jump again (which, by the way, was such a masterful move by Bakker tbh and a true showcase of his story-telling skills; the fact that he decided NOT to write the 20 years as 'filler books' and also the time jump acting as a natural divider between the 'triologies') one starts to wonder what characters will still be around for the next series. This wee lad certainly seems like a strong candidate and I'm very hyped to see what happens to him who, seemingly, possesses even more of the 'Strength' while at the same time retaining his humanity?
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Also, unless every Dunyain was named Anasarimbor, which is a real possibility, what logical evidence does the Surivior know it was his son?
Pheromones. Real-world children can distinguish the scent of their mothers during infancy. A Dunyain would surely be able to do that for an infant of his own blood. Also likely is facial resemblance - Koringhus got the boy out when he was an infant, that means he must have been born shortly before the Sranc attacked. So he would have had sufficient time to see the boy's face. The world conspires.
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In one of his PoV scenes Koringhus shoots down the idea of all Dunyain being Anasurimbors. He just confirms that they are the greatest of the (I think eight?) lineages that were selected to form part of the Ishual project.
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In one of his PoV scenes Koringhus shoots down the idea of all Dunyain being Anasurimbors. He just confirms that they are the greatest of the (I think eight?) lineages that were selected to form part of the Ishual project.
Yes but with such a small population, after 2000 years they would have bred the best with the best until all lines were thoroughly mixed, so that may be not much of a practical difference.
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In one of his PoV scenes Koringhus shoots down the idea of all Dunyain being Anasurimbors. He just confirms that they are the greatest of the (I think eight?) lineages that were selected to form part of the Ishual project.
Yes but with such a small population, after 2000 years they would have bred the best with the best until all lines were thoroughly mixed, so that may be not much of a practical difference.
So the Dunyain are basically super smart hillbillies? Yes, I'll buy that.
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In one of his PoV scenes Koringhus shoots down the idea of all Dunyain being Anasurimbors. He just confirms that they are the greatest of the (I think eight?) lineages that were selected to form part of the Ishual project.
Yes but with such a small population, after 2000 years they would have bred the best with the best until all lines were thoroughly mixed, so that may be not much of a practical difference.
So the Dunyain are basically super smart hillbillies? Yes, I'll buy that.
Not exactly what I was trying to say, but I guess that is one way to put it. ;D
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Could the Son be an indicator of the Gods' intervention? They can't see the No God, but they can see Khellus. It seems the Judging Eye opens when necessary, not when asked, which means it probably has some connection to the Gods. If the boy was meant to survive, it explains the Survivor's un-Dunyain behavior to him, and eventual salvation (?) at the end of his life. So could the Gods have chosen the Son to be their agent? Of what...I don't know know, maybe the next book.
It smacks of Fate, right?
Nah but interesting topic tbh. As I understood it a third "triology" is more or less decided, right? Assuming there will be a time jump again (which, by the way, was such a masterful move by Bakker tbh and a true showcase of his story-telling skills; the fact that he decided NOT to write the 20 years as 'filler books' and also the time jump acting as a natural divider between the 'triologies') one starts to wonder what characters will still be around for the next series. This wee lad certainly seems like a strong candidate and I'm very hyped to see what happens to him who, seemingly, possesses even more of the 'Strength' while at the same time retaining his humanity?
I'll have to look again one day but I'm almost sure that Bakker mentions a time-gap between TAE and TSTSNBN on Zombie Three Seas...
Also, unless every Dunyain was named Anasarimbor, which is a real possibility, what logical evidence does the Surivior know it was his son?
Pheromones. Real-world children can distinguish the scent of their mothers during infancy. A Dunyain would surely be able to do that for an infant of his own blood. Also likely is facial resemblance - Koringhus got the boy out when he was an infant, that means he must have been born shortly before the Sranc attacked. So he would have had sufficient time to see the boy's face. The world conspires.
Classic packed Bakker one-liner buried in the Survivor's Qirri overdose:
And yet he had found himself in the nursery without thought, scooping up this very babe without thought, the one that smelled of him, of Anasurimbor, the most promising of the Twelve Germs.
In one of his PoV scenes Koringhus shoots down the idea of all Dunyain being Anasurimbors. He just confirms that they are the greatest of the (I think eight?) lineages that were selected to form part of the Ishual project.
Yes but with such a small population, after 2000 years they would have bred the best with the best until all lines were thoroughly mixed, so that may be not much of a practical difference.
I'll have to link this in the other thread too but Wilshire organized some great thoughts on this topic years ago regarding how many "Germs" the OG Dunyain would need: How many were the original Dunyain refugees? (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=993.0)
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Were the Anasurimbor one of the Twelve Germs or was the son of Koringhus one of Twelve Germs like twelve of Koringhus' seed?
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I read 12 germs as Triskele did. 12 germs, meaning either 12 children currently in the birthing room, or 12 of Koringus' children.
However, I'd very much like an answer to how many families started Ishual, and 12 selfishly falls within my original calculations, so I like this theory.
However, why would he refer to family lines, or anything else, as 'germs'? Did the Dunyain develop enough in advanced biology to come up with germ theory, cell theory, and have an understanding of DNA... Color me surprised.
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In one of his PoV scenes Koringhus shoots down the idea of all Dunyain being Anasurimbors. He just confirms that they are the greatest of the (I think eight?) lineages that were selected to form part of the Ishual project.
Yes but with such a small population, after 2000 years they would have bred the best with the best until all lines were thoroughly mixed, so that may be not much of a practical difference.
So the Dunyain are basically super smart hillbillies? Yes, I'll buy that.
Like in Texas, cousins are the currency of Ishual.
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I read 12 germs as Triskele did. 12 germs, meaning either 12 children currently in the birthing room, or 12 of Koringus' children.
However, I'd very much like an answer to how many families started Ishual, and 12 selfishly falls within my original calculations, so I like this theory.
However, why would he refer to family lines, or anything else, as 'germs'? Did the Dunyain develop enough in advanced biology to come up with germ theory, cell theory, and have an understanding of DNA... Color me surprised.
I imagine he meant germ in the sense of:
a portion of an organism capable of developing into a new one or part of one. Compare with germ cell.
• the embryo in a cereal grain or other plant seed. Compare with wheat germ.
• an initial stage from which something may develop: the germ of a brilliant idea.
Which isn't quite as strong as using "Seeds" but I sparkle with the idea that Germs refers to the original familial breeding lines.
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I thought the boy was just physical defective (the crab hand) other then that he is just a untrained Dunyain.
Aaa, I read it as the crab hand having resulted from injury. Didn't catch that he was born that way.
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I think there is also a lot of promise with the boy. Koringhus notes that he hasn't received any training besides the merest training he's been able to do. So, is the "evil" of the Dûnyain embedded in him genetically or is it something learned through training? Will he be as cold and calculated as his grandfather? So many ways his story could go.
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I think there is also a lot of promise with the boy. Koringhus notes that he hasn't received any training besides the merest training he's been able to do. So, is the "evil" of the Dûnyain embedded in him genetically or is it something learned through training? Will he be as cold and calculated as his grandfather? So many ways his story could go.
Good point. As far as we know, there has never been an untrained Dunyain loose in the world. In other words, never has one been loose without already being preconditioned to the Logos, fully. Unlike the rest, he is now free to learn how the world actually is, without, as Koringhus essentially puts it, the mistake of blindly following the Logos.
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Good point. As far as we know, there has never been an untrained Dunyain loose in the world. In other words, never has one been loose without already being preconditioned to the Logos, fully. Unlike the rest, he is now free to learn how the world actually is, without, as Koringhus essentially puts it, the mistake of blindly following the Logos.
Plus, with him have natural physical enhanced physical and mental abilities just through 1000's of years of breeding, probably in of the few, he will have the skills and acumen to be very powerful. I think he's be way more powerful than Kelmommas could ever be, without the evil that runs through Kelmommas.
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I think, when people talk about how the son of the survivor can be a Dunyain who feels, they forget that all Dunyain can feel. Moenghus admits as much; Kellhus, in The Great Ordeal, seems to show genuine care for Esmenet. The survivor himself chooses a defective child because it is his son. So I don't think the child is different in that regard; he just isn't as well educated in the Dunyain Doctrine as the rest of them were.
Another interesting thing to note is that the Anasurimbor seem to be best Dunyain. Child Kellhus, in his flashbacks, seems smarter than the rest. And Moenghus calls for his son for his plan, rather than any other Dunyain, and he isn't exactly the sort that'd do that out of sentiment.
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I think, when people talk about how the son of the survivor can be a Dunyain who feels, they forget that all Dunyain can feel. Moenghus admits as much; Kellhus, in The Great Ordeal, seems to show genuine care for Esmenet. The survivor himself chooses a defective child because it is his son. So I don't think the child is different in that regard; he just isn't as well educated in the Dunyain Doctrine as the rest of them were.
Another interesting thing to note is that the Anasurimbor seem to be best Dunyain. Child Kellhus, in his flashbacks, seems smarter than the rest. And Moenghus calls for his son for his plan, rather than any other Dunyain, and he isn't exactly the sort that'd do that out of sentiment.
Cuttlefish, is it safe to say we can add you to the "Kellhus cares" camp? Meaning although he remains Dunyain, he cares about humanity and the ones he loves.
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Did the survivor not take the child because he didn't distinguish it as being apart from him. they were part of the same being? "Refused to recognise the interval between them"
I'll have to go back and dig out the relevant quotes, but my impression at the moment is he didn't recognise them as separate entities. He was another of his legion.
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I think, when people talk about how the son of the survivor can be a Dunyain who feels, they forget that all Dunyain can feel. Moenghus admits as much; Kellhus, in The Great Ordeal, seems to show genuine care for Esmenet. The survivor himself chooses a defective child because it is his son. So I don't think the child is different in that regard; he just isn't as well educated in the Dunyain Doctrine as the rest of them were.
Another interesting thing to note is that the Anasurimbor seem to be best Dunyain. Child Kellhus, in his flashbacks, seems smarter than the rest. And Moenghus calls for his son for his plan, rather than any other Dunyain, and he isn't exactly the sort that'd do that out of sentiment.
Cuttlefish, is it safe to say we can add you to the "Kellhus cares" camp? Meaning although he remains Dunyain, he cares about humanity and the ones he loves.
Yeah, I do believe he cares; and I am not alone in that regard. Remember, when Kelmomas talks to Thelli for the last time, and asks her if she cares, she says something like "I care, but just like father, the tracks I leave on the snow are light".
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Yeah, I do believe he cares; and I am not alone in that regard. Remember, when Kelmomas talks to Thelli for the last time, and asks her if she cares, she says something like "I care, but just like father, the tracks I leave on the snow are light".
Great catch! Even more proof of Kellhus caring. Just so you know I was on record on the podcast I was on before TGO, saying Kellhus cared and bases some of his decisions on that. I was summarily laughed at by the other casters....
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Did the survivor not take the child because he didn't distinguish it as being apart from him. they were part of the same being? "Refused to recognise the interval between them"
I'll have to go back and dig out the relevant quotes, but my impression at the moment is he didn't recognise them as separate entities. He was another of his legion.
Could be. I also thought he said something along the lines of he didn't know why he grabbed the boy.....he just did. But that could be related to what you said, of course.
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I got the impression that he came to the realization that he grabbed the boy because of the Legion Within; because it was his son, without even fully realizing.
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Yeah, I do believe he cares; and I am not alone in that regard. Remember, when Kelmomas talks to Thelli for the last time, and asks her if she cares, she says something like "I care, but just like father, the tracks I leave on the snow are light".
Great catch! Even more proof of Kellhus caring. Just so you know I was on record on the podcast I was on before TGO, saying Kellhus cared and bases some of his decisions on that. I was summarily laughed at by the other casters....
IIRC, there was also a part of his inner monologue somewhere in the book, where he thinks that his original plan of letting his empire fall would also "sink his heart" because of Esmenet and his children.
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Yeah, I do believe he cares; and I am not alone in that regard. Remember, when Kelmomas talks to Thelli for the last time, and asks her if she cares, she says something like "I care, but just like father, the tracks I leave on the snow are light".
Great catch! Even more proof of Kellhus caring. Just so you know I was on record on the podcast I was on before TGO, saying Kellhus cared and bases some of his decisions on that. I was summarily laughed at by the other casters....
IIRC, there was also a part of his inner monologue somewhere in the book, where he thinks that his original plan of letting his empire fall would also "sink his heart" because of Esmenet and his children.
Yes, IIRC, it's right after he talks to Proyas about Serwe being damned. Its why i believe his goals are to defeat the Consult and the 100, to end damnation.
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Did the survivor not take the child because he didn't distinguish it as being apart from him. they were part of the same being? "Refused to recognise the interval between them"
Interesting catch, themerchant. That seems to reflect his later realization that the human folly is recognizing the interval, or something thereabouts.
Yeah, I do believe he cares; and I am not alone in that regard. Remember, when Kelmomas talks to Thelli for the last time, and asks her if she cares, she says something like "I care, but just like father, the tracks I leave on the snow are light".
Great catch! Even more proof of Kellhus caring. Just so you know I was on record on the podcast I was on before TGO, saying Kellhus cared and bases some of his decisions on that. I was summarily laughed at by the other casters....
Lol - I can't imagine we were all laughing at you, MSJ ;).
Weirdly enough, that TAE's Kellhus is become a man who once was Dunyain was one of my seventeen year-old Madness' original theories way back on ZTS.
Yeah, I do believe he cares; and I am not alone in that regard. Remember, when Kelmomas talks to Thelli for the last time, and asks her if she cares, she says something like "I care, but just like father, the tracks I leave on the snow are light".
Great catch! Even more proof of Kellhus caring. Just so you know I was on record on the podcast I was on before TGO, saying Kellhus cared and bases some of his decisions on that. I was summarily laughed at by the other casters....
IIRC, there was also a part of his inner monologue somewhere in the book, where he thinks that his original plan of letting his empire fall would also "sink his heart" because of Esmenet and his children.
That he failed to anticipate that his heart would also "crash into ruin," I believe.
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Lol - I can't imagine we were all laughing at you, MSJ .
Maybe it just felt that way to me, lol.
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Lol - well, it's likely that we might have been laughing about Kellhus having feelings (and how wrong we were, no doubt). But no ill will meant I'm sure ;).
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@ H - Lol, your phrasing "untrained Dunyain loose in the world" wow, that could be a real significant thing
@ MSJ - Cheers to you--I think Kellhus cares too!
A couple of things about Crab-Kid-- he's the result of a sranc-only diet from childhood i suppose; he acts pretty 'normal' but it might be signficant in TUC that this kid has to have a really fucked up psychology: growing up in the dark constantly chased by rapist-monsters.
I know it doesn't say so, but I just had a strong impression that Crab-Kid was headed south to Momemn. I guess he could be off to anywhere though, even back to Ishual or over to Ishterebinth or what about Atrithau/Sakarpus.
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A couple of things about Crab-Kid-- he's the result of a sranc-only diet from childhood i suppose; he acts pretty 'normal' but it might be signficant in TUC that this kid has to have a really fucked up psychology: growing up in the dark constantly chased by rapist-monsters.
The Survivor ruminates regarding "risking the surface only when their food stores ran out" or some such. Not the Meat ;).
I know it doesn't say so, but I just had a strong impression that Crab-Kid was headed south to Momemn. I guess he could be off to anywhere though, even back to Ishual or over to Ishterebinth or what about Atrithau/Sakarpus.
Well, I'd imagine the Boy has the strongest attachment to Mimara at this point - the Survivor yielded to her, told the Boy everything he taught him was a lie, and Mimara saved the Boy's life by doing one of my absolute favorite small things in the series, the Dunyain Alley-Oop (calling back to when Cnaiur and Kellhus meet the Scylvendi returning from worship and Cnaiur uses the Dunyain's ability to read his face to tell him to prepare for combat).
And Achamian at least speaks the Boy's language.
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Hmm, Madness, I'm fascinated by what you say. Crab-Kid is perhaps not damned like Koringhus, so he has a chance to make use of Koringhus' insights in a Dunyain way. Mimara might raise him up right (by Yatwer or something). A Dunyain that is willfully subservient to the gods (and not dead) is fascinating.
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Hmm, Madness, I'm fascinated by what you say. Crab-Kid is perhaps not damned like Koringhus, so he has a chance to make use of Koringhus' insights in a Dunyain way. Mimara might raise him up right (by Yatwer or something). A Dunyain that is willfully subservient to the gods (and not dead) is fascinating.
MG, just a question, not a argument, what makes you think that Mim is Yatwer mortal soul? I've taking to her being attached to the God/Absolute what have you. I think Yatwers plans rest in Sorwel at this juncture and maybe Zsoronga will play a role.
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Hmm, Madness, I'm fascinated by what you say. Crab-Kid is perhaps not damned like Koringhus, so he has a chance to make use of Koringhus' insights in a Dunyain way. Mimara might raise him up right (by Yatwer or something). A Dunyain that is willfully subservient to the gods (and not dead) is fascinating.
Well, I was just addressing the thought that the Boy would go anywhere else besides following Mimara and Achamian.
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Hmm, Madness, I'm fascinated by what you say. Crab-Kid is perhaps not damned like Koringhus, so he has a chance to make use of Koringhus' insights in a Dunyain way. Mimara might raise him up right (by Yatwer or something). A Dunyain that is willfully subservient to the gods (and not dead) is fascinating.
MG, just a question, not a argument, what makes you think that Mim is Yatwer mortal soul? I've taking to her being attached to the God/Absolute what have you. I think Yatwers plans rest in Sorwel at this juncture and maybe Zsoronga will play a role.
Oh yeah, I think Scott is keeping it vague - Mimara claims to be seeing with the absolute (which might be identical to Yatwer) but...
-Woman
-Preggers
-Dunyain are damned because they make 'tools' of everything, something Yatwer hates
-In the Fathering, muses specifically on the duties of women
-Mimara prays to Yatwer (in Cil-aujus?)
-Zero-God is emptiness like void like womb like Khora
-Somewhere when Akka and Mimara first, there is a face drawn in the earth by one of the slave kids, earth-->mom
I'm not convinced that there really is any absolute. It could be one of the revelations of TUC that Mimara's eye sees what is holy and damned only from one god's pov, so Kellhus will be damned to Yatwer but holy to Gilgaol or something.
The gods interact in so many ways in Earwa that using a pregnancy as a mechanism can't be insignificant. Psatma isn't pregnant and 'sees' quite a lot.
I'm also not real convinced that Yatwer is only using 2 special agents--I'm betting she could make Sorweel say whatever to the nonmen. If they or Sorweel or whoever buy that Yatwer has only 2 special secret agents, then they will be blind/ignorant to the others (a Bakker fav theme).
It's not at all conclusive! Could be wrong! I just don't know what Moe Sr and the Psukhe-Dunyain have been up to for all these years in Golgotterath :)
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Is the only reason the boy is defective his emotional range? Koringhus says he can scarcely even enter the pre-cursor to the probability trance. Lack of training, perhaps. But could also be he just lacks the wiring. Not from the Meat though, yeah. Apparently the assessors were pretty sure he was defective early on.
I could honestly also just see Koringhus never bothering to name him. Dunyain are weird.
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Is the only reason the boy is defective his emotional range? Koringhus says he can scarcely even enter the pre-cursor to the probability trance. Lack of training, perhaps. But could also be he just lacks the wiring. Not from the Meat though, yeah. Apparently the assessors were pretty sure he was defective early on.
Well, there's historical time between those two ruminations. The Survivor grabs the Boy, as a babe, when the Dunyain try to escape into the Thousand Thousand Halls. The Survivor talks about risking light and sound so that the Boy developed properly. He fells a tree to count the years of the Boy's life.
The comment regarding the Assessors surely must refer to the Babe and the Survivor's condemnation of the Boy is skewed. There's also the question of whether the Boy was born with his crab-hand, which would certainly be deemed defective, or his fingers were lopped off by Sranc.
Despite failing the Dunyain's standard regarding babies born, it seems likely that the Boy will have far more natural Dunyain-ness than any of Kellhus' worldborn children.
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I suspect that the boy's hand is unrelated to his defect:
"Three fingers hand been lopped from his right hand, making a crab's claw of his right hand." (Overlook pg.162).
That's Achamian's perspective, but it does suggest that The Boy lost those fingers.
In fact, I think that The Boy being "defective" may instead be part of a generational arc in the Anasurimbor germline - just as Moeghus thought Kellhus "broken" but Kellhus thought himself "more", a lack of dispassion may be creeping back in the line of Anasurimbor's sons, culminating in "the most blessed fraction." In Koringhus's case, his betrayal of The Mission in favor of his son was literally his saving grace in the eyes of The Eye.
Koringhus's own narrative arc may be intended to demonstrate that precisely what makes The Boy "defective" as judged by the Dunyain reflects the fundamental defect in Dunyain philosophy - what blinds them to the "sideways step" to escape the linear chain of The Logos.
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Despite failing the Dunyain's standard regarding babies born, it seems likely that the Boy will have far more natural Dunyain-ness than any of Kellhus' worldborn children.
I'd imagine so, yes. The Dunyain seem to have had tremendously high standards. Given the whale-mothers revelation, that probably counter-acts what should otherwise be a very high birth rate.
In Koringhus's case, his betrayal of The Mission in favor of his son was literally his saving grace in the eyes of The Eye.
Or in the eyes of Mimara, if certain ideas are correct. Though maybe ultimately that's saying the same thing.
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I hope I'm not repeating myself, work is making me Erratic, but welcome to the Second Apocalypse, sohorat.
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I suspect that the boy's hand is unrelated to his defect:
"Three fingers hand been lopped from his right hand, making a crab's claw of his right hand." (Overlook pg.162).
That's Achamian's perspective, but it does suggest that The Boy lost those fingers.
In fact, I think that The Boy being "defective" may instead be part of a generational arc in the Anasurimbor germline - just as Moeghus thought Kellhus "broken" but Kellhus thought himself "more", a lack of dispassion may be creeping back in the line of Anasurimbor's sons, culminating in "the most blessed fraction." In Koringhus's case, his betrayal of The Mission in favor of his son was literally his saving grace in the eyes of The Eye.
Koringhus's own narrative arc may be intended to demonstrate that precisely what makes The Boy "defective" as judged by the Dunyain reflects the fundamental defect in Dunyain philosophy - what blinds them to the "sideways step" to escape the linear chain of The Logos.
This is my interpretation almost 100%. The boy was so-called defective because, as Koringhus states, "he could not deny the interval between them". Which is also in line with Koringhus's recollection of immediately going to save his son when Ishual was attacked, without thought, without premeditation or Dunyain scheming or anything else. In other words, they were defective because they loved each other.
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Maybe the boy's not defective? Not likely, but he's labelled as "defective" by someone with a bit of an insanity problem.
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Maybe the boy's not defective? Not likely, but he's labelled as "defective" by someone with a bit of an insanity problem.
Didn't the defect in this case have to do with a phisical defect? There was something wrong with his fingers, no?
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I think his defect was emotional, he still had familial passions, much like Kelmommas except not a psychopath. That is why the assessor deemed him defective in the crib, he could see the emotional attachment of the child. The fingers would be of no concern to the Dunyain.
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I think his defect was emotional, he still had familial passions, much like Kelmommas except not a psychopath. That is why the assessor deemed him defective in the crib, he could see the emotional attachment of the child. The fingers would be of no concern to the Dunyain.
For some reason, I thought the boy lost his fingers while him and Koringhus were fighting to stal alive fighting the Sranc.
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I think his defect was emotional, he still had familial passions, much like Kelmommas except not a psychopath. That is why the assessor deemed him defective in the crib, he could see the emotional attachment of the child. The fingers would be of no concern to the Dunyain.
I always interpreted emotions in Dunyain as something that was drilled out of them by instruction & practice - not something they had mostly bred out of their gene pool.
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I think it's definitely both aspects. But, not sure it's been bred out to the extent that an infant would retain no emotions at all.
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I think Theliopa is illustrative of the Dunyain gnome, she had emotions but they were very stunted and muted. Kellhus said to Esmenet that they tried to breed emotions out of themselves, and the training further stunts this. The Assessor saw too much emotion in the child and labelled him defective. His physical and mental traits should be at the leading edge of the Dunyain genome considering his father and grandfather were prodigies of the Dunyain. He may have more natural ability than Kellhus himself, except he is untrained. If it was not for the Celmommian vision in TGO I would have speculated that he was the Anasurimbor that would come at the end of all things.
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I think people are making a huge leap here - we don't even know if the child showed more emotions than other Dunyain babies. Even if he did, it's a baby. I'd be surprised if the assessor could tell how much emotional a baby would be when it grows up. Even if he could, their entire lives are dedicated to the Logos and removal from emotions. I don't think babies who cry or laugh too much would be branded as defective. He does have a fucked up hand though, so chuck him in the defected room.
@Ciphrank, it was Koringhus who could not deny the interval between himself and his son, not the other way around.
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I like your avatar, Doubt.
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Ta. I like yours more ;)
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But if it was the hand their would be no need for the assessor, anyone could see the crippled hand, the way Koringhus remembered the encounter it was a preliminary assessment. Not final but a mature Dunyain assessment that was his craft.
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Also, the passage from TGO says "Three fingers had been lopped from his right hand." Lopped, not merely missing. I think there was also mention of scars (supporting the lopped off description). If it was congenital, there wouldn't be scars.
Anyway, in one of her sections in TJE (I think), Esmi reminisces she could tell relatively early how 'human' her children were (or weren't). Pretty sure a Dunyain assessor, whose job it is to determine such things, could tell pretty much instantly if one of their kids was defective or not.
IMO
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Also, the passage from TGO says "Three fingers had been lopped from his right hand." Lopped, not merely missing. I think there was also mention of scars (supporting the lopped off description). If it was congenital, there wouldn't be scars.
Anyway, in one of her sections in TJE (I think), Esmi reminisces she could tell relatively early how 'human' her children were (or weren't). Pretty sure a Dunyain assessor, whose job it is to determine such things, could tell pretty much instantly if one of their kids was defective or not.
IMO
Weren't the scars about Korringhus? I remember the "Cuts and cuts and cuts" being about him, anyway.
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Yeahp, cool so I misremembered. ;D It's handy having the book back :D
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I'm with the mindset that the Survivor's son wasn't defective because of any emotional or physical stunting - just that a Dunyain could look at him and for any number of reasons decide that he wasn't going to make it through the program.
I like the posts distinguishing him from the other Dunyain outside of Ishual. Unlike Kellhus and Khoringas, he's not subjected to the Wilderness after a lifetime dedicated to the Logos. And unlike Kelmomas, he wasn't born into a world already worshipping him as divine. There's definitely the possibility that he has more potential than the other Anasurimbor characters we have, despite any perceived defects.
I'm hoping Kellhus brings Esme and Kelmomas to the other characters in the Ordeal for how epic the Akka & Esme reunion would be. But now I'm thinking the Kelmomas and Survivor's Son confrontation would be even more epic.
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I'm hoping Kellhus brings Esme and Kelmomas to the other characters in the Ordeal for how epic the Akka & Esme reunion would be. But now I'm thinking the Kelmomas and Survivor's Son confrontation would be even more epic.
Bakker said that Akka and Esme would reunite.
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I'm hoping Kellhus brings Esme and Kelmomas to the other characters in the Ordeal for how epic the Akka & Esme reunion would be. But now I'm thinking the Kelmomas and Survivor's Son confrontation would be even more epic.
Bakker said that Akka and Esme would reunite.
Perhaps that is why Momemn was destroyed. Where is Esmenet going to go now? She'll have to follow Kellhus, perhaps, in order to meet Akka again (and Mimara)?
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He may have more natural ability than Kellhus himself, except he is untrained. If it was not for the Celmommian vision in TGO I would have speculated that he was the Anasurimbor that would come at the end of all things.
Perhaps he will be the one to show us the Metapsukhe. How much water can the Boy's back bear?