[What Came Before]

I thought abstraction referred to calculus or advanced science, more or less. while Anagogis is metaphorical and analogy.  Think of how algebra makes things more abstract, and e or i more abstract still.  And that abstraction leads to greater precision.

Angogis = horsepower = analogy
gnosis = miles per hour = abstract

I think the initial wikipedia entries sum it up pretty well.

Abstraction is a process by which concepts are derived from the usage and classification of literal ("real" or "concrete") concepts, first principles, or other methods. "An abstraction" is the product of this process – a concept that acts as a super-categorical noun for all subordinate concepts, and connects any related concepts as a group, field, or category.

Analogy (from Greek ἀναλογία, analogia, "proportion") is a cognitive process of transferring information or meaning from a particular subject (the analogue or source) to another particular subject (the target), and a linguistic expression corresponding to such a process. In a narrower sense, analogy is an inference or an argument from one particular to another particular, as opposed to deduction, induction, and abduction, where at least one of the premises or the conclusion is general.

Perhaps the Psukhe can be veiwed in terms of derivition of meaning via emotive intuition.  The inuteral is thus intuited.

Intuition is a priori knowledge or experiential belief characterized by its immediacy. Beyond this, the nature of intuition is debated. Roughly speaking, there are two main views. They are:

Intuitions are a priori. This view holds that distinctions are to be made between various sorts of intuition, roughly corresponding to their subject matter (see George Bealer). The only intuitions that are relevant in analytic philosophy are 'rational' intuitions. These are intellectual seemings that something is necessarily the case. They are directed exclusively towards statements that make some kind of necessity claim. For example, a rational intuition is what occurs when it seems to us that a mathematical statement (e.g. 2+2=4) must be true. Intuitions as this view characterizes them are to be distinguished from beliefs, since we can hold beliefs which are not intuitive, or have intuitions for propositions that we know to be false.

    Intuitions are a species of belief, and based ultimately in experience. This view holds that intuitions are not especially different from beliefs, although they appear subjectively to be more unrevisable than other beliefs. Unlike the previous view, these intuitions are liable to differ between social groups. Evidence for this is shown in various psychological studies (e.g. the one by Stich, Weinburg and Nichols)

[What Came Before]

So if psukhe is from intuition and it seems intuition is, kind of, darkness that comes before - it should be extra powerful.

More than 9.000 mark for sure

[What Came Before]

Can't remember where we were discussing the identity of the Possesors of the Third Sight, but I just realized there is an entry in TTT glossary that makes it sound fairly straight forward.

Possessors of the Third Sight
An alternate name for the Cishaurim, so called because of their reputed ability to see without their eyes.

[What Came Before]

Can't remember where we were discussing the identity of the Possesors of the Third Sight, but I just realized there is an entry in TTT glossary that makes it sound fairly straight forward.

Possessors of the Third Sight
An alternate name for the Cishaurim, so called because of their reputed ability to see without their eyes.

Great find.  This backs up the thought that perhaps the reason Moe "Shines in the 3rd Sight" is because he can use Dunyain abilities to hear heartbeats and intonations in voices and the like so he comes across as being even less blind than his Cish brethren.

[What Came Before]

Regarding the Third Sight (which refers to the way Cishaurim see without seeing), the idea is that Psukari can actually see souls - those things invisible to the naked eye. Souls 'shine' to the degree they reflect the 'proportion of the God.' So the implication is that the Dunyain somehow reflect the proper proportion...

Posted this on p4 of this thread .

[What Came Before]

Regarding the Third Sight (which refers to the way Cishaurim see without seeing), the idea is that Psukari can actually see souls - those things invisible to the naked eye. Souls 'shine' to the degree they reflect the 'proportion of the God.' So the implication is that the Dunyain somehow reflect the proper proportion...

Posted this on p4 of this thread .

OK - So what's the implication there?  That when other Cishaurim look at Moe, they're like "Damn!  What a soul!"

[What Came Before]

Sorry, Trisk. Should have wrote p3.

Incidental. There's another Zombie Three Seas quote that supplements these ideas suggesting that cognitive functions the Dunyain breed for, memory, for instance, are related to seeming proportionate in the Third Sight. I'll have to track it down.

I think that's exactly what goes through a Cishaurim's thoughts when beholding Moenghus.

[What Came Before]

I wonder, then, if Moenghus's probability trance gave any significant weight to a "latter Fanim prophet" route.

[What Came Before]

Meyna, I've basically convinced myself that Mallahet was to the Cishaurim as Kellhus was to the Inrithi. Interesting that two of Kellhus' goals are simply the selfsame in Kian. Which was Moenghus after? Faith or Sorcery?

[What Came Before]

Meyna, I've basically convinced myself that Mallahet was to the Cishaurim as Kellhus was to the Inrithi. Interesting that two of Kellhus' goals are simply the selfsame in Kian. Which was Moenghus after? Faith or Sorcery?

Do we have any evidence that Mallahet was known by the Fanim beyond the Cishaurim themselves?

[What Came Before]

Do we have any evidence that Mallahet was known by the Fanim beyond the Cishaurim themselves?

I think its a fair assumption, Triskele.  The Cishaurim were the religious leaders of the nation, not just a sorcerous school.
His heritage would cause controversy, if nothing else.

[Madness]

Do we have any evidence that Mallahet was known by the Fanim beyond the Cishaurim themselves?

I think its a fair assumption, Triskele.  The Cishaurim were the religious leaders of the nation, not just a sorcerous school.
His heritage would cause controversy, if nothing else.

It would be very interesting to read a Moenghus narrative (though, I'm still assuming this is forthcoming in the books). How did the Cishaurim digest/interpret Mallahet? Was there controversy among the Cishaurim? Was Mallahet truly second-only to Seokti or was Moenghus without Water? Did the Fanim worship Mallahet as a second coming of Fane as Kellhus is to Sejenus or was he more of a Maithanet?

[Triskele]

Has anyone ever wondered if the Water is somehow finite and distributed amongst the Waterbearers?  Could Meppa be all the more powerful because he's the last Cishaurim?  Pstatma tells Meppa that he has an ocean of Water in him.  Could that be because he has all the Water, so to speak?

ETA:  Also...riffing off of the idea that Moe/Mallahet was to the Fanim w/ Kellhus was to the Inrithi....


Hifanat (sp), the Cish who approaches Kellhus at Caraskand, says something like "we see you, all of us that follow Him, those w/ the 3rd Sight."  That's paraphrasing; not the exact quite. 

But if the 3rd Sight is just the way that all Cishaurim see...could Moenhus have not just controlled a "faction" within the Cishaurim as Kellhus speculates but all of them?

[Madness]

Has anyone ever wondered if the Water is somehow finite and distributed amongst the Waterbearers?  Could Meppa be all the more powerful because he's the last Cishaurim?  Pstatma tells Meppa that he has an ocean of Water in him.  Could that be because he has all the Water, so to speak?

Could be.

ETA:  Also...riffing off of the idea that Moe/Mallahet was to the Fanim w/ Kellhus was to the Inrithi....


Hifanat (sp), the Cish who approaches Kellhus at Caraskand, says something like "we see you, all of us that follow Him, those w/ the 3rd Sight."  That's paraphrasing; not the exact quite. 

But if the 3rd Sight is just the way that all Cishaurim see...could Moenhus have not just controlled a "faction" within the Cishaurim as Kellhus speculates but all of them?

I'm convinced Moenghus was high on Cishaurim hierarchy and that he influenced their decisions as an organization.

[Wilshire]

Has anyone ever wondered if the Water is somehow finite and distributed amongst the Waterbearers?  Could Meppa be all the more powerful because he's the last Cishaurim?  Pstatma tells Meppa that he has an ocean of Water in him.  Could that be because he has all the Water, so to speak?

ETA:  Also...riffing off of the idea that Moe/Mallahet was to the Fanim w/ Kellhus was to the Inrithi....


Hifanat (sp), the Cish who approaches Kellhus at Caraskand, says something like "we see you, all of us that follow Him, those w/ the 3rd Sight."  That's paraphrasing; not the exact quite. 

But if the 3rd Sight is just the way that all Cishaurim see...could Moenhus have not just controlled a "faction" within the Cishaurim as Kellhus speculates but all of them?

I suppose its possible, but I don't think there is actually a God dispensing the water. Otherwise I feel like Moe would have gotten a decent share of it... Then again maybe not, since a Dunyain couldn't worship anything but themselves.


That 'quote' made me think of how Moenghus shines in the 3rd site for some reason. I guess that would mean Kellhus would be just as bright, if not more so. This would make Kellhus really easy to pick out in a crowd. Easily seen. Maybe thats what the Cish meant?