The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The Unholy Consult => Topic started by: Madness on October 03, 2017, 06:19:20 pm

Title: [TUC Spoilers] Ajokli's Motivations
Post by: Madness on October 03, 2017, 06:19:20 pm
A post by H in TNG subforum made me want to sound the Interval.

I know we've had versions of this thread already and, though I'm sure it'll inevitably come up, I'd like to approach this through the lens that Ajokli is acting on his own (Kellhus then is strictly unwitting victim).

There are a couple data points we can cite without even debating or attributing Kellhus' dialogue in the Golden Room to Ajokli.

- Firstly, we have Ajokli's momentary victory speech when he's gone full-on Ghost Rider God-Mode. He wants to be on Earwa, not in the Outside, and he'd like to create Hell on Earwa and "shovel souls into the furnaces of Hell" (badly paraphrasing).
- Secondly, We have the comment by the fifth Mutilated whose head Ajokli pops that Ajokli is making a play to hide from the Gods at Golgotterath (I find this further validated by my reading as after TUC I found the whole Momemn story line to be about the Gods hunting and trying to stop Ajokli, rather than Kellhus specifically).

Original tangent (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=2414.msg40530#msg40530) but please feel free to continue here without referencing the other thread - we've covered a lot of the same tangents in other threads but I'd like to entertain the particulars in this one now.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ajokli's Motivations
Post by: MSJ on October 03, 2017, 06:32:30 pm
Its the whole companion to the Gods, and after the what comes after determines what comes before, that has me intrigued. Is he a merged Kellhus or Cnauir into Ajokli? Man there is a quote on TGO from Cnauir about turning Earwa into a living he'll, hanging babies from trees and such. Very intriguing to me.

I do think thats why his power on Earwa is greater than hell. And, 100% agree Madness that Ajokli struck the pacts and was trying g to hide from the other Gods.

I did re-read the Golden Room section, I do not agree that that is Ajokli speaking the whole time. I made many notes and don't have time to quote at the moment but, I don't think Ajokli completely takes over til the very end. I will give you my quotes and post later though.

Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ajokli's Motivations
Post by: Sausuna on October 03, 2017, 07:04:51 pm
I think it is worth noting the other reported facts we know about Ajokli.
Quote
Ajokli—The God of thievery and deception. Also known as the Four-Horned Brother. Though listed among the primary Gods in The Chronicle of the Tusk, there is no true Cult of Ajokli, but rather an informal network of devotees scattered across the great cities of the Three Seas. The lack of any organizing institutions has transformed the Cult into the skulking, criminal embodiment of its skulking, criminal Master. The high priests of the Cult, insofar as it possesses any, are its Narindar, the most deadly of the most deadly assassins.
Ajokli is oft mentioned in the secondary scriptures of the different Cults, sometimes as a mischievous companion of the Gods, other times as a cruel or malicious competitor. In the Mar’eddat, he is the faithless husband of Gierra. In the Book of Gods he is nothing less than the dread enemy of mankind, the one God too hungry to remain in the Outside. In the Book of Hintarates he is the same, but depleted for his endless grasping, and so reduced to craft and insinuation. The fractured image presented in the scriptures is expressed in the sheer number of names used to reference him or his work: the Trickster, the Thief, the Four-Horned Brother, the Bald-faced, the Grinning God, Immortal Malice, the Prince of Hate, the Rake, among others.
I find the bolded parts to fit very much with what happened in the Golden Room. He seemingly wanted to stalk the world with The Mutilated and glut himself on mankind.

Then we have the odd fact that some people have supposedly view Golgotteroth as associated with Ajokli.
Quote
If the Ark were a vessel from another planet, then it had to be constructed by the Inchoroi themselves, when plainly, given its boggling dimensions, only a God could have forged it. Given the evil, rapacious nature of the Inchoroi, the construction is typically attributed to Ajokli. Some even think the Incû-Holoinas comprises two of the fabled Four Horns attributed to the trickster God in the Tusk and elsewhere. Indeed, some Near Antique lays refer to the conspicuously golden vessel as the Halved Crown of Hate.
While some of these aspects seem unlikely given recent knowledge, they are still interesting bits and might hint an an actual association.

Then we have the odd confusion when referencing Gilgaol in the text and Ajokli. And whether Akka's dreams about the Celmoman prophecy hold any weight.

And lastly, whether this god is a separate entity, or somehow merged with aspects of Kellhus or Cnauir.

Honestly, the entire thing is a big kettle of fish to me. But wanted to throw this out there before I really solidified my thoughts on it's nature.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ajokli's Motivations
Post by: profgrape on October 03, 2017, 11:12:00 pm
Yes, in retrospect, it seems likely that the Great Ordeal wasn't anything more than a contrivance to get Ajokli to the Golden Room so it could fully manifest.   

The only thing that gives me pause about this is that Ajokli is later able to manifest itself in Cnaiur.  Might be as simple as the fact that Kellhus was the most powerful being on the planet and therefore, the ideal host?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ajokli's Motivations
Post by: Madness on October 04, 2017, 05:27:12 pm
I did re-read the Golden Room section, I do not agree that that is Ajokli speaking the whole time. I made many notes and don't have time to quote at the moment but, I don't think Ajokli completely takes over til the very end. I will give you my quotes and post later though.

Sweet :).

Then we have the odd confusion when referencing Gilgaol in the text and Ajokli. And whether Akka's dreams about the Celmoman prophecy hold any weight.

And lastly, whether this god is a separate entity, or somehow merged with aspects of Kellhus or Cnauir.

Honestly, the entire thing is a big kettle of fish to me. But wanted to throw this out there before I really solidified my thoughts on it's nature.

I mentioned in the Foreshadowing thread, I think, that the confusion with Gilgaol and Ajokli is an artifact of Bakker having been undecided which God would play Ajokli's role in TUC when beginning TAE.

Yes, in retrospect, it seems likely that the Great Ordeal wasn't anything more than a contrivance to get Ajokli to the Golden Room so it could fully manifest.   

The only thing that gives me pause about this is that Ajokli is later able to manifest itself in Cnaiur.  Might be as simple as the fact that Kellhus was the most powerful being on the planet and therefore, the ideal host?

I think Kellhus was the actual most Damned soul and Cnaiur was second most Damned. And thanks, Sausuna and profgrape, because now I have a concrete example of how far from the Ark Ajokli might infiltrate Damned individuals (or "walking Topoi") to enter Earwa - giving credence to the idea profgrape shared with me yesterday that Ajokli might have been speaking through Kellhus even further than the Golden Room.

Thanks for posting those quotes too, Sausuna.

And profgrape: "Yes, in retrospect, it seems likely that the Great Ordeal wasn't anything more than a contrivance to get Ajokli to the Golden Room so it could fully manifest." - Facking brilliant 8)!
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ajokli's Motivations
Post by: profgrape on October 04, 2017, 06:47:04 pm
I think Kellhus was the actual most Damned soul and Cnaiur was second most Damned.
I like it!  And it also supports how Cnaiur resigns himself to lose to Kellhus before he takes his "last ride".
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ajokli's Motivations
Post by: Tythus on October 04, 2017, 08:26:43 pm
Yes, in retrospect, it seems likely that the Great Ordeal wasn't anything more than a contrivance to get Ajokli to the Golden Room so it could fully manifest.   

The only thing that gives me pause about this is that Ajokli is later able to manifest itself in Cnaiur.  Might be as simple as the fact that Kellhus was the most powerful being on the planet and therefore, the ideal host?

I hear people saying Ajokli manifested though Cnaiur alot, and I'm curious why people think that is? Is it because of the way the dialogue is delivered as he walked towards the No-God?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ajokli's Motivations
Post by: SmilerLoki on October 04, 2017, 08:50:29 pm
I hear people saying Ajokli manifested though Cnaiur alot, and I'm curious why people think that is? Is it because of the way the dialogue is delivered as he walked towards the No-God?
It's mainly because of this quote:

Quote from: R. Scott Bakker, "The Unholy Consult", Chapter 20, "The Furnace Plain"
Naked and unarmed, Cnaiür urs Skiötha, the most-violent-of-all-men, strode laughing into the Horde of Mog-Pharau ...
And it parted ... not for the smoke steaming from his numberless swazond, nor for the crimson glow poisoning his turquoise eyes, nor even for the shadowy presentiment of four horns rising about his head.
The mention of four horns is the most important part pertaining to your question here.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ajokli's Motivations
Post by: Tythus on October 04, 2017, 08:56:02 pm
I hear people saying Ajokli manifested though Cnaiur alot, and I'm curious why people think that is? Is it because of the way the dialogue is delivered as he walked towards the No-God?
It's mainly because of this quote:

Quote from: R. Scott Bakker, "The Unholy Consult", Chapter 20, "The Furnace Plain"
Naked and unarmed, Cnaiür urs Skiötha, the most-violent-of-all-men, strode laughing into the Horde of Mog-Pharau ...
And it parted ... not for the smoke steaming from his numberless swazond, nor for the crimson glow poisoning his turquoise eyes, nor even for the shadowy presentiment of four horns rising about his head.
The mention of four horns is the most important part pertaining to your question here.

Awww, ya thats pretty straight forwards. I should really give the last few chapters a re-read besides the Golden room scene, I flew threw the last few pages after Kellhus was salted.

Thanks for the response!
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ajokli's Motivations
Post by: SmilerLoki on October 04, 2017, 09:32:59 pm
You're welcome!
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ajokli's Motivations
Post by: H on October 05, 2017, 11:26:29 am
I haven't done a ton of research and I'm not all that overwhelmingly knowledgeable about this, but Ajokli as the "trickster god" and his desire to stalk Eärwa itself seem somewhat in line with "real" trickster gods from our own human history.  From Br'er Rabbit, to Anansi, to incarnations of coyotes and ravens, they are usually out in the world itself, not disembodied gods.  Yatwer never really seeks a presence in Eärwa, but Ajokli does.  Whether this is to outmaneuver the other gods, or just to mess with mortals or both is not clear though.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ajokli's Motivations
Post by: Sausuna on October 05, 2017, 12:15:04 pm
I haven't done a ton of research and I'm not all that overwhelmingly knowledgeable about this, but Ajokli as the "trickster god" and his desire to stalk Eärwa itself seem somewhat in line with "real" trickster gods from our own human history.  From Br'er Rabbit, to Anansi, to incarnations of coyotes and ravens, they are usually out in the world itself, not disembodied gods.  Yatwer never really seeks a presence in Eärwa, but Ajokli does.  Whether this is to outmaneuver the other gods, or just to mess with mortals or both is not clear though.
I think the speech he gives, along with the glossary entry, give strong indication that he just wants more souls to eat. The only god whose hunger is too great to be contained to the Outside.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ajokli's Motivations
Post by: H on October 05, 2017, 01:08:26 pm
I think the speech he gives, along with the glossary entry, give strong indication that he just wants more souls to eat. The only god whose hunger is too great to be contained to the Outside.

Or does he want to deny the other's their share while simultaneously growing his own?  Or, of course, both a great hunger and some level of "revenge?"
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ajokli's Motivations
Post by: profgrape on October 05, 2017, 02:14:15 pm
I think the speech he gives, along with the glossary entry, give strong indication that he just wants more souls to eat. The only god whose hunger is too great to be contained to the Outside.

Or does he want to deny the other's their share while simultaneously growing his own?  Or, of course, both a great hunger and some level of "revenge?"
I'm inclined to thing that it's mostly just a power grab.  The fact that Bakker hadn't decided whether it would be Gilgaol or Ajokli as late as TTT makes me think it's not a question of Ajokli's motivation specifically and more about what a God might want.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ajokli's Motivations
Post by: Yellow on October 05, 2017, 04:28:53 pm
Are Ajokli's character traits (so far as they have been known to humans) simply a reflection of the fact that he possessed Kellhus and briefly manifested in the world at Golgotterath? Has he always had some reflection of Kellhus within him? After all, time and cause / effect don't really apply.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ajokli's Motivations
Post by: Madness on October 05, 2017, 04:38:54 pm
I haven't done a ton of research and I'm not all that overwhelmingly knowledgeable about this, but Ajokli as the "trickster god" and his desire to stalk Eärwa itself seem somewhat in line with "real" trickster gods from our own human history.  From Br'er Rabbit, to Anansi, to incarnations of coyotes and ravens, they are usually out in the world itself, not disembodied gods.  Yatwer never really seeks a presence in Eärwa, but Ajokli does.  Whether this is to outmaneuver the other gods, or just to mess with mortals or both is not clear though.

I'm almost positive that FB and I have talked about Trickster narratives a number of times across the forum, long preceding the revelations of TUC.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ajokli's Motivations
Post by: Madness on October 13, 2017, 05:07:19 pm
So as per the other ongoing thread dissecting these and other matters.

In TGO, we have a Kellhus POV on the Vision/Voice telling Kellhus that it wars with the God and to "burn the fields to awaken the God" (bp). Later in TUC, Ajokli implies that he'll use the Mutilated to cull Earwa - which would serve the aforementioned "goal" from TGO.

Also, as I need to record this somewhere for myself, the move to create Ciphrang-Malowebi (and who knows how many other Ciphrang-Characters possibly in play) smacks of an Ajokli, rather than a Kellhus.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ajokli's Motivations
Post by: Yellow on October 13, 2017, 05:46:41 pm
So as per the other ongoing thread dissecting these and other matters.

In TGO, we have a Kellhus POV on the Vision/Voice telling Kellhus that it wars with the God and to "burn the fields to awaken the God."

Can you be more specific about that (I'm  assuming you're paraphrasing)? That wasn't my take on why the fields should be burned. To war against the God (who needs souls to sustain it) , not to wake it.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ajokli's Motivations
Post by: Yellow on October 13, 2017, 05:48:29 pm
Also, fwiw, I still don't think that was Ajokli. Too rational. Outside Kellhus fo sho.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ajokli's Motivations
Post by: Madness on October 13, 2017, 06:02:51 pm
So as per the other ongoing thread dissecting these and other matters.

In TGO, we have a Kellhus POV on the Vision/Voice telling Kellhus that it wars with the God and to "burn the fields to awaken the God."

Can you be more specific about that (I'm  assuming you're paraphrasing)? That wasn't my take on why the fields should be burned. To war against the God (who needs souls to sustain it) , not to wake it.

I'll have to go digging. I have a couple boxes of books to go through since the move still. There's a sad chance - as I read the TGO draft like... seven times in the two years preceding publication - that it's not in the canon artifact.

Also, fwiw, I still don't think that was Ajokli. Too rational. Outside Kellhus fo sho.

That is a theory which a number of readers subscribed to following TGO's release.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ajokli's Motivations
Post by: Yellow on October 13, 2017, 06:35:48 pm
Yeah, and Bakker's comment on it neither confirmed nor denied it, imo. I'm never letting it go!
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ajokli's Motivations
Post by: TLEILAXU on October 13, 2017, 07:32:27 pm
So as per the other ongoing thread dissecting these and other matters.

In TGO, we have a Kellhus POV on the Vision/Voice telling Kellhus that it wars with the God and to "burn the fields to awaken the God."

Can you be more specific about that (I'm  assuming you're paraphrasing)? That wasn't my take on why the fields should be burned. To war against the God (who needs souls to sustain it) , not to wake it.

I'll have to go digging. I have a couple boxes of books to go through since the move still. There's a sad chance - as I read the TGO draft like... seven times in the two years preceding publication - that it's not in the canon artifact.

Also, fwiw, I still don't think that was Ajokli. Too rational. Outside Kellhus fo sho.

That is a theory which a number of readers subscribed to following TGO's release.
It's in the canon, I remember it too. Ajokli the Trickster...
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ajokli's Motivations
Post by: MSJ on October 13, 2017, 07:51:06 pm
Why would Ajokli want to wake the God? Why would Ajokli want a war with the God? Outside Kellhus fo sho.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ajokli's Motivations
Post by: Duskweaver on October 15, 2017, 03:46:41 pm
This the bit you're talking about?

The figure seems to perpetually sink for the constellations rising about him. He speaks, but his face cannot be seen.
I war not with Men, it says, but with the God.
"Yet no one but Men die," the Aspect-Emperor replies.
The fields must burn to drive Him forth from the Ground.
"But I tend the fields."
The dark figure stands beneath the tree, begins walking towards him. It seems the climbing stars should hook and carry him in the void, but he is like the truth of iron - impervious and immovable.
It stands before him, regards him - as it has so many times - with his face and his eyes. No halo gilds his leonine mane.
Then who better to burn them?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ajokli's Motivations
Post by: incuroi on October 17, 2017, 02:46:15 am
i actually don't think the great ordeal was just a contrivance for ajokli. think on it! the ordeal is a feast unto itself, a host of the most damned souls the world has ever witness born of one dunyain's deceit. the whole ordeal is already a great meal for the four horned brother and he was about to feast on the rest of the world. the irony is that his avatar is a member of the tribe of 'truth'. the god that i think is being referenced is the no-god/ark/logos, all as the culmination of the absolute, if the field is burned then the no-god can't complete its function and read souls. greater too is that ajokli keeps cnair as a backup in case his plan goes awry which is why he refuses to join the counsult
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ajokli's Motivations
Post by: H on October 20, 2017, 11:22:52 am
Well, I think it stands to reason that Ajokli regards Kellhus (and the Golden Room) as a point of entrance into Eärwa.  From there, I don't know that was have sufficient evidence to say he didn't well want that he tells the DûnSult he does, that is, to remake Eärwa into his own personal Hell.  I think this serves him in that he'd control the "granary" and so plausibly be able to war with any and all of the gods at once.

I think the Ordeal is completely Kellhus' idea, in the sense that it is the culmination of the Thousandfold Thought.  As we learn from Serwe's fight with Skuthula, the plan was for the Ordeal to fully breech the Ark itself and so to not have Kellhus face the Golden Room alone.  For several reasons, this doesn't happen and as per Bakker himself, the Thought fails.

So, the Ordeal only serves Ajokli in the sense that it delivers Kellhus to the Golden Room, but I don't think it was part of a larger plan on his part.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ajokli's Motivations
Post by: MSJ on October 21, 2017, 03:09:09 pm
Quote from: H
Well, I think it stands to reason that Ajokli regards Kellhus (and the Golden Room) as a point of entrance into Eärwa.  From there, I don't know that was have sufficient evidence to say he didn't well want that he tells the DûnSult he does, that is, to remake Eärwa into his own personal Hell.  I think this serves him in that he'd control the "granary" and so plausibly be able to war with any and all of the gods at once.

I think the Ordeal is completely Kellhus' idea, in the sense that it is the culmination of the Thousandfold Thought.  As we learn from Serwe's fight with Skuthula, the plan was for the Ordeal to fully breech the Ark itself and so to not have Kellhus face the Golden Room alone.  For several reasons, this doesn't happen and as per Bakker himself, the Thought fails.

So, the Ordeal only serves Ajokli in the sense that it delivers Kellhus to the Golden Room, but I don't think it was part of a larger plan on his part.

Yea, I have to agree. The Great Ordeal was part of the Thousandfold Thought and where the Thought failed was when Ajokli "forced" Kellhus into the Golden Room ahead of schedule. If they go in with Serwe, Kayutas and whoever else was included in the plans, I believe they succeed. This just was never going to happen, because obviously Kellhus didn't plan for Ajokli to take over as he did. I don't even think he counted on Ajokli giving him divine power. Bakker says that Kellhus is the most powerful sorcerer ever by the time they reach the Ark, that basically his sorcery is that of the Gods. We see it when he levitate with no Mark and there are other examples. He didn't need divine power, he already had it. This is why I don't buy that the Ordeal was just a way to get Ajokli in the Golden Room. Couldve went about it a ton of other ways of that was the case.

What still disappoints me is when Akka tells Kellhus about his dreams and when Akka doesn't divulge them, Kellhus just shrugs it off. So much about Akka facing Kellhus again that just drives me bat shit crazy. A wasted opportunity for some legendary scenes there.

So, how many people believe Cnaüir or Kellhus is Ajokli? I'm genuinely curious. Who and why do you believe that to be the case also?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ajokli's Motivations
Post by: SmilerLoki on October 21, 2017, 04:19:49 pm
Bakker says that Kellhus is the most powerful sorcerer ever by the time they reach the Ark, that basically his sorcery is that of the Gods.
I don't remember Bakker saying it like that. He named Kellhus the strongest sorcerer (I kinda remember something like that, but can't recall the exact phrasing) before the Dunsult was introduced. Considering Kellhus being able to perform Markless sorcery - which in its described effects was always (?) very low key, - it wasn't even Bakker saying that, it got to us from the ZDC thread, as far as I can tell. I view it as a testament to Kellhus's knowledge, not his strength in battle (the latter, while formidable, still can be attributed to his mastery of the Metagnosis; generally his great feats of sorcery were still Marked, it's instances when there is no Mark that's specifically noted in the narrative).

Knowledge and strength are not the same and do not linearly translate into one another. The fact that Kellhus can do more things doesn't necessarily make him stronger in a confrontation. For all practical purposes many (if not all) of those things can just be tricks. For example, he preferred to continuously Translocate in his aerial battle with Aurang to the form of flying employed in the Last Whelming. Presumably because he could only rise a few feet above the ground, and that's basically it for that particular application of Markless sorcery.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ajokli's Motivations
Post by: TheCulminatingApe on October 21, 2017, 09:34:37 pm
Yea, I have to agree. The Great Ordeal was part of the Thousandfold Thought and where the Thought failed was when Ajokli "forced" Kellhus into the Golden Room ahead of schedule. If they go in with Serwe, Kayutas and whoever else was included in the plans, I believe they succeed. This just was never going to happen, because obviously Kellhus didn't plan for Ajokli to take over as he did. I don't even think he counted on Ajokli giving him divine power.

And in fact the whole thing is stymied when Ajokli stops his foot, trashing the insides of the Ark, and preventing Serwa etc getting into the Golden Room.  Ajokli taking over is surely not part of the plan
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ajokli's Motivations
Post by: TheCulminatingApe on October 21, 2017, 09:36:42 pm
To go back to the thread title, Ajokli is the trickster.  Maybe his motivation is that he finds the whole thing amusing.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ajokli's Motivations
Post by: MSJ on October 21, 2017, 10:37:47 pm
Quote from:  Smilerloki
I don't remember Bakker saying it like that. He named Kellhus the strongest sorcerer (I kinda remember something like that, but can't recall the exact phrasing) before the Dunsult was introduced. Considering Kellhus being able to perform Markless sorcery - which in its described effects was always (?) very low key, - it wasn't even Bakker saying that, it got to us from the ZDC thread, as far as I can tell. I view it as a testament to Kellhus's knowledge, not his strength in battle (the latter, while formidable, still can be attributed to his mastery of the Metagnosis; generally his great feats of sorcery were still Marked, it's instances when there is no Mark that's specifically noted in the narrative).

Knowledge and strength are not the same and do not linearly translate into one another. The fact that Kellhus can do more things doesn't necessarily make him stronger in a confrontation. For all practical purposes many (if not all) of those things can just be tricks. For example, he preferred to continuously Translocate in his aerial battle with Aurang to the form of flying employed in the Last Whelming. Presumably because he could only rise a few feet above the ground, and that's basically it for that particular application of Markless sorcery.

Oh, you sweet summer child...SMH.

Lol. No, but, Bakker says something along the lines of Kellhus has become so powerful that his sorcery is indistinguishable from the God. I'm not Madness, I am not the quote finder. And, knowledge is the root of all power, young SmilerLoki. There are other examples of Markless sorcery it's mentioned quite a few time throughout TUC. Anyhow, my point was that I do not believe Kellhus needed or considered having Ajokli's power.

See, if there was a "pact", I fully expect Kellhus to have done as much deceiving as Ajokli and probably accounted for Ajokli deceiving him, he just didn't know the manner. I am not totally sure at all that Kellhus knew Ajokli would play a major role, if any in the Golden Room. The dialogue doesn't back it up. "Father has entered the Golden Room by himself?", suggests that there was a plan. That plan never came to fruition because of Ajokli inhabiting Kellhus. Oh, and there is no doubt in my mind that Kellhus was the most powerful sorcerer to ever walk the Three-Seas, it's unquestionable in my mind.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ajokli's Motivations
Post by: Practical Lobster on October 21, 2017, 11:36:29 pm
Being the greatest sorcerer in the world is easily undone by one chorae or hell even a sniper shot from an Inchoroi weapon of light. Kellhus couldn't know what he was up against. Makes sense that he'd make a pact with the Pit. No other way to condition the ground of the Ark without surveying it.

Ajokli's assistance was, imo, one hundred percent necessary. Kellhus just assumed ultimate his reason would allow him to maintain control. And then maybe he could betray Ajokli later and run some sort of additional scheme with heads and poles and whatnot.

But it failed.

Anyhow, that's just my two cents, as someone who hasn't gotten so deep into the crazy speculation game and hasn't caught up on all the deeper theories y'all are pondering yet.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ajokli's Motivations
Post by: SmilerLoki on October 21, 2017, 11:58:08 pm
Lol. No, but, Bakker says something along the lines of Kellhus has become so powerful that his sorcery is indistinguishable from the God.
I don't remember that being about power at all. I took it to be about understanding.

And, knowledge is the root of all power, young SmilerLoki.
If only, on both counts.

An example of knowledge being more or less useless, at least for a while. There is a way to move a watercraft with an engine that has no moving parts (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetohydrodynamic_drive). It's even gotten a prototype some decades ago. Nonetheless it remains just a scientific peculiarity, because, all its advantages notwithstanding, it's simply not cost-effective. Our civilization is ripe with things like this. I extrapolate that on sorcery.

There are other examples of Markless sorcery it's mentioned quite a few time throughout TUC.
I am quite sure I don't remember all of it, but right now I'm under the impression it was all low key, the Last Whelming levitation-level.

Anyhow, my point was that I do not believe Kellhus needed or considered having Ajokli's power.
That's completely fine, I was mainly interested in your assessment of Kellhus's sorcerous power. Maybe you noticed something I didn't. I most certainly wouldn't be able to recall every instance of Markless sorcery at this time.

I am not totally sure at all that Kellhus knew Ajokli would play a major role, if any in the Golden Room. The dialogue doesn't back it up.
This utterly depends on how to read it, actually.

"Father has entered the Golden Room by himself?", suggests that there was a plan.
There might have been many plans and contingencies, including the one Serwa's referencing. For example, she didn't know about Proyas, while Kayutas did. It was a part of Kellhus's plans regardless.

Oh, and there is no doubt in my mind that Kellhus was the most powerful sorcerer to ever walk the Three-Seas, it's unquestionable in my mind.
The Three Seas, yes. Golgotterath, on the other hand... The Dunsult is a complete unknown in regards to their sorcerous proficiency. Kellhus has a significant edge on the world-born. That edge is gained through his Dunyain nature and training. The Dunsult have that as well, unlike any other characters in the series so far (save Koringhus).
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ajokli's Motivations
Post by: TLEILAXU on October 22, 2017, 08:44:11 am
Nah. Kellhus is a prodigy among the Dûnyain, his son is described as being the one closest to the Absolute ever. Definitely the most powerful sorcerer to ever walk Eärwa.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ajokli's Motivations
Post by: SmilerLoki on October 22, 2017, 09:43:29 am
Nah. Kellhus is a prodigy among the Dûnyain, his son is described as being the one closest to the Absolute ever. Definitely the most powerful sorcerer to ever walk Eärwa.
I feel I have a very different understanding of the word "prodigy". The fact that you can do some things better or faster than most people doesn't make you infallible or invincible, or even strictly more powerful. For example, very well-trained musicians would demonstrate the same level of proficiency as the prodigious ones, they just have to work harder to achieve it.

The matter of time put into something also has great significance. Prodigious abilities will not outweigh skills honed by dedicated training. Being a prodigy means picking things up fast, but it gives you no edge when your opponents can do everything you can, even if it took them somewhat longer to reach that level. So Kellhus being the most powerful sorcerer doesn't mean he can take on however many sorcerous Dunyain he wants. It doesn't mean he would necessarily be victorious against just one. I like his chances, but, as I mentioned earlier, two against one is generally considered bad odds. And prodigies are no exception to that rule. You might be able to hit harder than anyone else, but that wouldn't save you if your opponents all kill in one hit, too.

When you want to strictly beat someone, equip yourself with an unfair advantage. Bring a gun to a knife fight. Enter a contest of strength against a known weakling or a contest of speed against a one-legged man. Assault your enemies when they don't expect it and are unable to defend themselves. Use a weapon when they have none. Simply outnumber them. That's the way I see Ajokli in the Golden Room.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ajokli's Motivations
Post by: Madness on October 22, 2017, 06:19:16 pm
This the bit you're talking about?

The figure seems to perpetually sink for the constellations rising about him. He speaks, but his face cannot be seen.
I war not with Men, it says, but with the God.
"Yet no one but Men die," the Aspect-Emperor replies.
The fields must burn to drive Him forth from the Ground.
"But I tend the fields."
The dark figure stands beneath the tree, begins walking towards him. It seems the climbing stars should hook and carry him in the void, but he is like the truth of iron - impervious and immovable.
It stands before him, regards him - as it has so many times - with his face and his eyes. No halo gilds his leonine mane.
Then who better to burn them?

Thanks, Duskweaver. Specifically, "I war not with Men, it says, but with the God." and "The fields must burn to drive Him forth from the Ground."

So, the Ordeal only serves Ajokli in the sense that it delivers Kellhus to the Golden Room, but I don't think it was part of a larger plan on his part.

I mentioned it before in this or the other thread but as per profgrape's suggestion, Ajokli has the benefit (?) of planning backwards. If the Ordeal serves to deliver Kellhus to the Golden Room, Ajokli has always been able to plan around that - among all those other unexplained subtle manipulations over the series (though, I'm not yet able to yet discount Anagke on a good many moments).

What still disappoints me is when Akka tells Kellhus about his dreams and when Akka doesn't divulge them, Kellhus just shrugs it off. So much about Akka facing Kellhus again that just drives me bat shit crazy. A wasted opportunity for some legendary scenes there.

I actually loved that scene. It's more for real that much other Fantasy.

More importantly, aside, Kellhus was interested in how and why Achamian's Dreams were changing... as am I.

So, how many people believe Cnaüir or Kellhus is Ajokli? I'm genuinely curious. Who and why do you believe that to be the case also?

Not I. They're Ajokli's doorways to Earwa, as per Bakker's comments on Walking-Topoi/Ciphrang-in-Life, the Most-Damned Soul and the Second-Most Damned (sorry, Inrilatas).

it wasn't even Bakker saying that, it got to us from the ZDC thread, as far as I can tell.

Well, your discussion with MSJ aside, I heard Bakker say it (or at least, I did later when listening to the recordings as I was not in the room) and will release the recording/transcript to that effect if/when I have permission to do so.

To go back to the thread title, Ajokli is the trickster.  Maybe his motivation is that he finds the whole thing amusing.

I like this, though I do wonder if the God of Gods, the Ultimate Shard/Ground, isn't really just a huge asshole (in Bakker's mind) for forcing existence in the first place and Ajokli isn't wrong to oppose him.

Though, as Ken Wilbur (and others) have said - maybe the Absolute just gets bored/terrified by having tea alone with itself. The Existential Scream could be real.

Being the greatest sorcerer in the world is easily undone by one chorae or hell even a sniper shot from an Inchoroi weapon of light. Kellhus couldn't know what he was up against. Makes sense that he'd make a pact with the Pit. No other way to condition the ground of the Ark without surveying it.

Ajokli's assistance was, imo, one hundred percent necessary. Kellhus just assumed ultimate his reason would allow him to maintain control. And then maybe he could betray Ajokli later and run some sort of additional scheme with heads and poles and whatnot.

But it failed.

Anyhow, that's just my two cents, as someone who hasn't gotten so deep into the crazy speculation game and hasn't caught up on all the deeper theories y'all are pondering yet.

Welcome to the Second Apocalypse, Practical Lobster. I like the monicker.

While I disagree with much of what you posted, I do like the bolded line. Too many readers seem to forget this. One intellect, two hands, however disproportionate they may be to his worldborn disciples.

Nah. Kellhus is a prodigy among the Dûnyain, his son is described as being the one closest to the Absolute ever. Definitely the most powerful sorcerer to ever walk Eärwa.
I feel I have a very different understanding of the word "prodigy". The fact that you can do some things better or faster than most people doesn't make you infallible or invincible, or even strictly more powerful. For example, very well-trained musicians would demonstrate the same level of proficiency as the prodigious ones, they just have to work harder to achieve it.

I do agree with SmilerLoki, Kellhus may very well have been overmatched by the Few Mutilated. And certainly, the Few Mutilated overmatch all other Earwan sorcerers unless the Mbimayu and their fetishes have any special significance - though, I suppose if Meppa were to take on one Mutilated directly, he might be able to do so.

And Serwa and Mimara, of course. The former might be able to hold her own with sorcery and the latter already having convinced Koringhus of the "Dunyain error."
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ajokli's Motivations
Post by: SmilerLoki on October 22, 2017, 08:46:46 pm
Well, your discussion with MSJ aside, I heard Bakker say it (or at least, I did later when listening to the recordings as I was not in the room) and will release the recording/transcript to that effect if/when I have permission to do so.
That would bring more clarity for sure!
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ajokli's Motivations
Post by: Wilshire on March 07, 2018, 07:11:25 pm
I still think Madness wants to attribute far to much to Ajokli, but he's definitely gaining influence throughout, to the point where the ruins The Thousandfold Thought by getting Kellhus to enter the Golden Room alone.

Clearly, if Ajokli or even just Kellhus wanted to get to the Golden Room alone, teleporting all the way there, taking a nap in the Occlusion, and then teleporting to the room would have been the easiest way to go. Kellhus certainly wanted to live through the experience thus TGO and the plan to have others in the room with him. Ajokli, if it was just him and he thought he could win by himself, he had no need to assemble and usher TGO to hell's gates.

TTT was derived as a way to save humanity from the Consult, and demanded the formation of TGO. Just like how the Holy War and the o was corrupted for ends other than to rescue Shimeh (and Moe's TTT failed), so too was Kellhus' Ordeal corrupted (and his incarnation of TTT failed).

Ajokli was the cause of the ultimate failure of Kellhus, which I think is pretty clear as long as we're assuming that Kellhus did fail. Still up for debate is how much was Ajokli and how far back he's been nudging.

FWIW, AFAIK the whole thing about Kellhus's magic being sufficiently advance to be indistinguishable from God was only an artifact from ZDC. I realize this does no one any good without recordings - I'm very sorry. The revised revised videos don't seem to include this tidbit - turns out Bakker is needlessly self-conscious  and had mostly anything of interest (at least to the regulars here) scrubbed from the to-be-published videos.