[TUC SPOILERS] Thoughts about the overall story, ending etc

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Cuttlefish

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« Reply #150 on: July 12, 2017, 11:50:12 am »
The idea of Kellhus being Ajokli raises an interesting possibility: are all of the Gods actually people, and could that be relevant?

I can imagine Esmenet being either Yatwer, seeing that she is a character whose motherhood has been a pretty significant running theme for her, or even more likely, Anagke, the Whore of Fate, seeing that she is, well, a whore who has had a pretty interesting destiny so far, with lots of ups and downs.

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« Reply #151 on: July 12, 2017, 12:23:26 pm »
The idea of Kellhus being Ajokli raises an interesting possibility: are all of the Gods actually people, and could that be relevant?

I can imagine Esmenet being either Yatwer, seeing that she is a character whose motherhood has been a pretty significant running theme for her, or even more likely, Anagke, the Whore of Fate, seeing that she is, well, a whore who has had a pretty interesting destiny so far, with lots of ups and downs.

Well, I think Kellhus engaged in a good bit of Daimotic trickery to allow Ajokli into the world.  I don't think any of the other 100 have ever actually inhabited the world before.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

Wilshire

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« Reply #152 on: July 12, 2017, 12:25:24 pm »
Weird that during the "Moenghus is behind it all" discussions some people used Kellhus's mistakes/near deaths throughout PoN as evidence that the Dunyain are fallible and that Moenghus simply fucked up and died. Now some of those same people won't accept that Kellhus could have failed. No, he must have planned it all, he is infallible after all...
^
Thanks Anwurat :) . I'm glad there's someone else out there making similar observations as me.

edit: I feel like you are being a little harsh though. There are millions of papers disputing the meanings and minutae of literature taught in schools and colleges. It's part of the fun, no?

I think there's a difference though: Serious Literature scholars focus on the interpretations of clear texts.
We are more in a Gene Wolfe situation here: trying to understand "what" happened on the page.

Clear texts? I kind of think there is a lot of Serious Literature that deals with ambiguity and jumbled metaphors.

Unless Moby Dick is just a book about a guy who hates a whale then?

Murakami, Joyce, Burroughs, Pynchon, Wallace et al seem pretty open for interpretation to me. Idk?

Yeah, but on Moby Dick, while the text may allude to a metaphor, you understand what event is happening. With Bakker, lately, that's becoming somewhat hard - for the most part, I don't think I'll understand his last book until I read the next one and get a sense of the consequences of what happened, to understand what happened. What comes after explains what comes before, in the Bakkerlit.

Cuttlefish, Curethan, False Man, Nil Sertrax: Great discussion. I don't have a ton to add on the (L)iterature side as I'm not well read in the area. I would like to point out that Bakker has stated multiple times that he wanted to create a fantasy novel that wouldn't crumble when looked at through the lens of "Serious Literature" as you guys seem to be calling it. So, that a couple people in a handful of years not coming to one conclusion appears to be entirely within the bounds of what Bakker was attempting.
And of course, I'll always agree that Overlook did a shit job producing these books, and if it was given proper editing it may have turned out better.

Nil Sertrax, I definitely understand where you're coming from. Though, first, remember that this is not the conclusion of the entire series. TTT may have been similarly dissatisfying if you weren't aware that there were many books after it to fill in gaps. That said, I largely agree. TAE as a whole, especially post-TUC, seems needlessly obfuscated. There's still probably more questions than answers, and instead of spending more time on world building - ie filling in gaps of our knowledge - most of TUC seems to add to the over all mystery. Though, imo, this is about as much information as we'll ever get, and assuming Bakker continues his amazing streak of interacting with fans, its really just up to us to hash it out.

Even if all that was true, it doesn't matter. Why? Yatwer thinks she's absolute with her White-Luck, and how did that turn out? Ajokli thinks he's absolute with his plans, and how did that turn out? What makes Kellhus immune to this pitfall?....Pick anyone who was sure they were on the winning side that hasn't lost everything (or nearly) for their certainty.
I can't be sure of course but if there is a paradox then that entails Outside Kellhus being the cause of his own demise which is the cause of Outside Kellhus.  He doesn't even have to be in control.  I'd actually prefer it if this were written to be a complete betrayal of his past self like Proyas.  In terms of narrative I still think the un-moved soul goal is in play and a bootstrap paradox is the only way I can see that manifesting.

If you want a story answer to why he's different, then he's the only entity in the Outside that might has manipulated the No-God and might have heard voices from him too.

If Kellhus is in guy behind it, there's plenty of complex interactions that boil down to time-travel-paradoxes, which is a find discussion topic for the future. I just don't agree that's the state of things ;) .

The trouble, though, with him being in the outside, is the same issue I have with Moenghus Sr. being some kind of super meta-psuke wielder. What you end up with is a dues ex machina that can explain any event, and to me that dampens my enjoyment immensely. Granted, I think Kellhus' ascending into the Outside and reaching back through time much more plausible and possible within the confines of Earwa than Moenghus Sr. theories. But there's still the trouble with, if Kellhus, why not others? Who else is/was/will-be/has-been a god? What about Sejenus, or Moe Sr., Koringhus, etc. etc. It seems to open a can of worms that I have trouble reconciling.

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Wilshire

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« Reply #153 on: July 12, 2017, 12:28:06 pm »
The idea of Kellhus being Ajokli raises an interesting possibility: are all of the Gods actually people, and could that be relevant?

I can imagine Esmenet being either Yatwer, seeing that she is a character whose motherhood has been a pretty significant running theme for her, or even more likely, Anagke, the Whore of Fate, seeing that she is, well, a whore who has had a pretty interesting destiny so far, with lots of ups and downs.

Well, I think Kellhus engaged in a good bit of Daimotic trickery to allow Ajokli into the world.  I don't think any of the other 100 have ever actually inhabited the world before.
You think it was Kellhus that ultimately allowed Ajokli to physically inhabit the world? I largely think it was Ajokli, manipulating Kellhus to get him into the ARK / IF room which allowed that manifestation. That's why, imo, we see the Ciphrang escape back into the Outside at the gate - and it was at the edge of the Topos. I assume the Golden Room is the center, or close enough, of the deepest Topos, therefore the closest to the Outside with the thinest barrier, which allows Ajokli to walk right into the world.
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MSJ

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« Reply #154 on: July 12, 2017, 12:30:18 pm »


I think there's a difference though: Serious Literature scholars focus on the interpretations of clear texts.
We are more in a Gene Wolfe situation here: trying to understand "what" happened on the page.
What I do worry about is the speculations about possible time-line / time-travelling / Outside-metaphysical story solutions. The question for me is not just 'is that possible,' but 'is that interesting?' For the moment, such a solution would disappoint me, that would cross the line from (possibly overly) complicated or convoluted to contrived.
[/quote]

Why? Why does that dominate anything or make anything contrived or convoluted? This series has been a metaphysical tale between a world (Earwa) and its hell/heaven(Outside). If Kellhus has been talking to himself since the Circumfix and guiding the TT, it makes perfect sense that after being salted he is now in the Outside, possibly as part of his plan. Not saying its how he wanted it to go down for sure, but him being on the Outside and still in the game is absolutely no way contrived. Its textual proof if anything.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

H

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« Reply #155 on: July 12, 2017, 12:33:36 pm »
What sets the current dialogue appart from the "meta-Moë" discussion, at least for me, isn't a question of did either fail.  The answer to that is irrevocably yes.  Moë was blind/ingorant/dismissive about the effect the Outside could really influence the Inside and he died for that.  Kellhus was dismissive of the idea that there was something that neither he, nor Ajokli could see, and he died for that.  Both are failures.

What isn't clear is what happens to him, exactly, now that he did.  It's hard to believe that with him knowing the metagnosis and mastering the Daimos, that his soul simply would just disappear into damnation.  Especially not given how he bartered with Ajokli, is subject to the scrutiny of numerous Ciphrang, not to mention the other 100.  That and his own saying how he made treaties with Hell itself (unclear if this is separate from Ajokli or not).

Not to mention the bizarre glossary entry for the Decapitants.  Note, that in the episode recounted there, he is at the Plains of Mengedda, one of the biggest topos outside Golgotterath itself (if not the biggest).  So, what was he doing?  Perhaps testing what happens between swapping and topoi?  While we don't know, I have doubts now that the head he put on Malowebi was just some "random ciphrang" now, considering that somehow the other head was Ajokli, or actually, I should say, was Kellhus?

Indeed, it seems that Malowebi's head is still alive in the end.  So, I wonder if the other head, Kellhus' head is too?  We just don't know what would happen to a disembodied head when it's body is gone.  Perhaps that is where Kellhus soul really is?

Another reason to think that Kellhus soul is not in the Outside is how Ajokli seems to be looking for him, via Cnaiür.  It seems to be a plausible reading that Ajokli thinks Kellhus is in the Sarcophagus.  In any case, it seems that Kellhus somehow renegged on his deal, either by not delivering the souls of the whole Ordeal or by forfeiting his own soul.  In any case, the fact that Ajokli can't find Kellhus is a clue that something additional is going on with Kellhus.  That doesn't mean he will be central in the next series, but he may well factor in.

An additional crack-pot theory could be that the head he put on Malowebi was actually his own.  So, Kellhus-Malowebi is now loose in Zeûm...but that is doubtful.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

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« Reply #156 on: July 12, 2017, 12:41:47 pm »
You think it was Kellhus that ultimately allowed Ajokli to physically inhabit the world? I largely think it was Ajokli, manipulating Kellhus to get him into the ARK / IF room which allowed that manifestation. That's why, imo, we see the Ciphrang escape back into the Outside at the gate - and it was at the edge of the Topos. I assume the Golden Room is the center, or close enough, of the deepest Topos, therefore the closest to the Outside with the thinest barrier, which allows Ajokli to walk right into the world.

Bidirectionality, I think.

Kellhus could not do it without the Daimos and Ajokli, Ajokli without Kellhus and the Daimos.  But where Ajokli inhabits Cnaiür seems be be beyond the limit of the Topos too.  I think Ajokli, once in the world, is not bound like a Ciphrang would be.

So, I guess we could say it any way we want.  I think both thought they were hoodwinking the other too.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

Wilshire

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« Reply #157 on: July 12, 2017, 12:44:39 pm »
You think it was Kellhus that ultimately allowed Ajokli to physically inhabit the world? I largely think it was Ajokli, manipulating Kellhus to get him into the ARK / IF room which allowed that manifestation. That's why, imo, we see the Ciphrang escape back into the Outside at the gate - and it was at the edge of the Topos. I assume the Golden Room is the center, or close enough, of the deepest Topos, therefore the closest to the Outside with the thinest barrier, which allows Ajokli to walk right into the world.

Bidirectionality, I think.

Kellhus could not do it without the Daimos and Ajokli, Ajokli without Kellhus and the Daimos.  But where Ajokli inhabits Cnaiür seems be be beyond the limit of the Topos too.  I think Ajokli, once in the world, is not bound like a Ciphrang would be.

So, I guess we could say it any way we want.  I think both thought they were hoodwinking the other too.

I grok :)
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Walter

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« Reply #158 on: July 12, 2017, 12:44:44 pm »
So, if the decapitants started out as Ajokli and another...who was the other?

Like, say Kellhus, on Mengaedda, is swapping his head and Ajokli's out to strike his deal.  That makes sense.

Then he swaps the other daemons head with Malowebi, sends it to Zeum.  So now his belt has Ajokli, Malowebi.

Lastly, in order to confront the Dunyain, he swaps one more time, now Ajokli is on the shoulders, Kellhus and Malowebi at the belt.

But he sees Kelmomas, at the end.  So it must be Kellhus riding shoulders when he is salted, leaving Ajokli and Malowebi on the belt.

Ajokli is then immediately seen possessing Cnaiur, which presumably means he isn't still on the belt.  That would leave Malowebi as the sole head on Kellhus's statue.

Dramatically, this is a bit unsatisfying.  If the heads are gonna be the new Heron Spear, the thing that Akka will quest for, then it needs to be Kellhus's head on the belt.  So say I'm wrong about seeing Kelmomas being another head swap.  Kellhus would then have still been on the belt when Ajokli got salted, leaving Malowebi and Kellhus as severed heads to be rescued.

Wilshire

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« Reply #159 on: July 12, 2017, 12:49:12 pm »
I don't envision the head swapping exactly the same as you.

I think largely the 'head swapping' is more of a soul/mind transfer type deal - Malowebi being the exception. I don't see Kellhus and Ajokli switching heads like helmets.

Also, once Ajokli in 'in' the world, as H mentions, he seems to be able to more freely inhabit people, a la Cnaiur.
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MisterGuyMan

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« Reply #160 on: July 12, 2017, 12:49:29 pm »
The idea of Kellhus being Ajokli raises an interesting possibility: are all of the Gods actually people, and could that be relevant?

I can imagine Esmenet being either Yatwer, seeing that she is a character whose motherhood has been a pretty significant running theme for her, or even more likely, Anagke, the Whore of Fate, seeing that she is, well, a whore who has had a pretty interesting destiny so far, with lots of ups and downs.
I don't believe that would be possible.  Esemet is Holy.  The conversation between Meppa and Psatma all but confirms that the Gods and Ciphrang are huge hungers.  Cnaiur is the benchmark.  If you're not Cnaiur tier hunger then you probably won't be in the running to be a God.

This though does make me recall a quote from Bakker:

"But it was the innocence part, that struck me as the most significant and the most redemptive. Without giving too much away, there is a manner in which Serwe is the important character in the book."

So if Kellhus is out of play, I can't think of a single reason how Serwe could be revealed to be a pivotal character.


The trouble, though, with him being in the outside, is the same issue I have with Moenghus Sr. being some kind of super meta-psuke wielder. What you end up with is a dues ex machina that can explain any event, and to me that dampens my enjoyment immensely. Granted, I think Kellhus' ascending into the Outside and reaching back through time much more plausible and possible within the confines of Earwa than Moenghus Sr. theories. But there's still the trouble with, if Kellhus, why not others? Who else is/was/will-be/has-been a god? What about Sejenus, or Moe Sr., Koringhus, etc. etc. It seems to open a can of worms that I have trouble reconciling.
Well the Unmoved Soul would presumably be a unique event in history.  Cnaiur is going to be a demon but I doubt he has the other skills or even inspiration to become an unmoved soul.  I really feel like the Bejunka move that changes all other moves is serving as a metaphor for some gamechanging and unanticipated event.  So by process of elimination Bejunka and Unmoved Soul leads me to this Paradox theory since I can't find any other way to reconcile the two.

So my very pragmatic I approach is similar to that children's game "Guess Who?"  First we start with the pool of all people that can become demons.  Then we keep winnowing down that pool with qualifiers.  Who speaks to the No-God?  Who is actually aiming to be an unmoved soul?  Who has spoken with a voice that seems to require a near extermination of mankind to war with the God?  Kellhus just seems like the last man standing or at worst the guy with preponderance of evidence.  Note that this is only with the assumption that the Unmoved Soul thing is still in play.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2017, 12:56:12 pm by MisterGuyMan »

Cuttlefish

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« Reply #161 on: July 12, 2017, 12:51:16 pm »
The idea of Kellhus being Ajokli raises an interesting possibility: are all of the Gods actually people, and could that be relevant?

I can imagine Esmenet being either Yatwer, seeing that she is a character whose motherhood has been a pretty significant running theme for her, or even more likely, Anagke, the Whore of Fate, seeing that she is, well, a whore who has had a pretty interesting destiny so far, with lots of ups and downs.
I don't believe that would be possible.  Esemet is Holy.  The conversation between Meppa and Psatma all but confirms that the Gods and Ciphrang are huge hungers.  Cnaiur is the benchmark.  If you're not Cnaiur tier hunger then you probably won't be in the running to be a God.

This though does make me recall a quote from Bakker:
But it was the innocence part, that struck me as the most significant and the most
redemptive. Without giving too much away, there is a manner in which Serwe is the most
important character in the book.
So if Kellhus is out of play, I can't think of a single reason how Serwe could be revealed to be a pivotal character.

She does have a son in the world, whose allegiance could yet prove pivotal.

H

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« Reply #162 on: July 12, 2017, 12:55:51 pm »
I don't envision the head swapping exactly the same as you.

I think largely the 'head swapping' is more of a soul/mind transfer type deal - Malowebi being the exception. I don't see Kellhus and Ajokli switching heads like helmets.

Also, once Ajokli in 'in' the world, as H mentions, he seems to be able to more freely inhabit people, a la Cnaiur.

Fair enough, but the Decapitants glossary entry sure is strange.

In any case, it certainly seems that Kellhus' head in the Golden Room scene is actually Ajokli's.  That explains why looking at the Inverse Fire meant nothing at all to him and why his head turns into a flame-geyser.  Whether that is Kellhus' head on his belt at that point or not is a whole different matter and one I don't think we can actually know the answer to.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

False Man

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« Reply #163 on: July 12, 2017, 12:57:38 pm »
In a realistic novel we know the range of what can or cannot happen is limited by the same physical laws as our real world.
In a fantasy novel there are much more possibilities and we need to understand how the magic and the metaphysics work in that particular world. Without that we are left with endless speculations.
e.g.: we know that sorcerers are damned and taken to Hell when they die. But who takes them to Hell? The Gods? A particular God? The Ciphrangs? Do Ciphrangs work for every God or just for the Punitive ones? And how many Hell exists? Who decides in which one the sorcerers go?
Even if I stick to the facts of Kellhus salted-Kelmomas in the Carapace-Second Apocalypse started damned ( ;D ) if I know how these things went on.

Walter

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« Reply #164 on: July 12, 2017, 01:21:56 pm »
A random question I've often asked of these books is whether ANYONE goes to paradise.

There is that one quotation about the sighs of the saints and the shrieks of the sinners sounding exactly the same...is Psatma experiencing anything different from what Akka has to look forward to?  Are there actually any Heavens, or just endless Hells?