Kellhus: good or evil?

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« Reply #105 on: June 24, 2015, 02:12:40 pm »
Hmm, I need to think more on that.  There is an aspect of the fact that the Dunyain are 'unnatural' to an extent.

I think the White-Luck Warrior might be closer to the 'unprecedented' nature of the Mule though, something Seswatha did not plan for.

It hard for me to work out the intentions here. 

The Consult: Destroy the world, destroy meaning.
The Mandate: Save the world and save meaning.

Therefore, how do we fit in Kellhus.  I feel like his intentions couldn't be the same as either, that is too obvious and formulaic.  So, that leaves us with: destroy the world and save meaning, or save the world, destroy meaning.  I am leaning toward the latter, which means he would actually save the Consult from damnation.

Then what of the WLW?  My guess is that he is an agent of the status-quo.

I don't know, that doesn't quite seem right, so maybe my whole theory is off.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

Wilshire

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« Reply #106 on: June 24, 2015, 04:12:41 pm »
Ah the Mule, how could I forget... Does the fact that the Dunyain dont seem to be able to readily interbreed effectively make them a race Mules :P
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« Reply #107 on: June 24, 2015, 04:55:19 pm »
Actually, thinking about it, we don't know if any of Kellhus' kids are fertile, do we?  What if they are all sterile?  What if the reason that Dunyain-Human breeding sometimes fails is because the Dunyain have gotten themselves near to being a different species?
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

Wilshire

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« Reply #108 on: June 24, 2015, 06:03:13 pm »
I've been here before H. Can't think of the topics right now, but I've tried to puzzle that bit out with a few people around here, but to no avail. No way to prove it either way, but I definitely think its a distinct possibility. Noteworthy, perhaps, that his oldest children are definitely old enough to have been breeding for a number of years, especially the males.
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« Reply #109 on: July 10, 2015, 11:11:22 am »
I've been here before H. Can't think of the topics right now, but I've tried to puzzle that bit out with a few people around here, but to no avail. No way to prove it either way, but I definitely think its a distinct possibility. Noteworthy, perhaps, that his oldest children are definitely old enough to have been breeding for a number of years, especially the males.

Granted, this is grasping as straws, but what if that was part of the plan all along?  The Dunyain being essentially a one shot 'weapon?'
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

Seökti

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« Reply #110 on: July 10, 2015, 12:13:20 pm »
. . .
The Consult: Destroy the world, destroy meaning.
The Mandate: Save the world and save meaning.

Therefore, how do we fit in Kellhus.  I feel like his intentions couldn't be the same as either, that is too obvious and formulaic.  So, that leaves us with: destroy the world and save meaning, or save the world, destroy meaning.  I am leaning toward the latter, which means he would actually save the Consult from damnation.

For me Kellhus represents how the absence of meaning can utilize meaning to save the world.
"I went mourning without the sun: I stood up and cried in the congregation."   -Job 30:28

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« Reply #111 on: July 10, 2015, 02:19:46 pm »
. . .
The Consult: Destroy the world, destroy meaning.
The Mandate: Save the world and save meaning.

Therefore, how do we fit in Kellhus.  I feel like his intentions couldn't be the same as either, that is too obvious and formulaic.  So, that leaves us with: destroy the world and save meaning, or save the world, destroy meaning.  I am leaning toward the latter, which means he would actually save the Consult from damnation.

For me Kellhus represents how the absence of meaning can utilize meaning to save the world.

But a loss of meaning would mean salvation for the Consult.  Unless he kills them all first...
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

profgrape

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« Reply #112 on: July 10, 2015, 02:55:33 pm »
In practical terms, does the absence of meaning essentially make Earwa like our world? 

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« Reply #113 on: July 10, 2015, 02:56:43 pm »
Unless he kills them all first...

Haha. "Hey Consult, I'm totally on board with your plan, except that, well, you guys are evil fucks and I'm going to have to kill you all before we have our eternal salvation party. Sorry"
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« Reply #114 on: July 10, 2015, 03:09:51 pm »
In practical terms, does the absence of meaning essentially make Earwa like our world?

I would think so, yes.

Unless he kills them all first...

Haha. "Hey Consult, I'm totally on board with your plan, except that, well, you guys are evil fucks and I'm going to have to kill you all before we have our eternal salvation party. Sorry"

Then the after series deals with what happens to Kellhus after?  I don't know, Madness told us we should be left with more questions than answers and that seems too cut and dry...
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

profgrape

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« Reply #115 on: July 10, 2015, 07:32:12 pm »
Quote
Then the after series deals with what happens to Kellhus after?  I don't know, Madness told us we should be left with more questions than answers and that seems too cut and dry...
I guess that's why I think there has to be more to it than Earwa becoming like our world...


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« Reply #116 on: July 12, 2015, 02:30:49 am »
I guess that's why I think there has to be more to it than Earwa becoming like our world...

I agree, at least in spirit. I don't necessarily think the story will end with Earwa literally becoming our world (not sure if you meant it that way), but I do think the series will end with the disenchantment of Earwa and the Universe as a whole. No more souls, sentient beings basically becomes skin-spies. In addition, since all of the souls have been returned/banished to the outside, the "many" souls merge into the "one" soul: the Absolute. Thus does the slumbering God awaken (though it is entirely disconnected with the material universe).

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« Reply #117 on: July 12, 2015, 02:44:08 am »
Right FB -- not our actual world but a world whose metaphysics matches our own.

I'm not familiar with RSB's blind brain theory. But I do wonder if the underlying metaphors of the world of the third series will be based on it.

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« Reply #118 on: July 13, 2015, 09:17:40 pm »
Right FB -- not our actual world but a world whose metaphysics matches our own.

I'm not familiar with RSB's blind brain theory. But I do wonder if the underlying metaphors of the world of the third series will be based on it.

Gotcha. I'm not particularly familiar with BBT myself (honestly most of Bakker's non-fiction stuff, like his blog, goes way the fuck over my head), but I do believe I grasp the fundamentals of it. With that in mind, BBT is almost certainly a pretty heavy influence on the series already -- from the Dunyain, to skin-spies, to a lot of stuff involving the Inchoroi in general.

I also suspect the Gods (and in some fashion the No-God) have aspects relevant to BBT, though I don't know how much of it is just window-dressing and how much is actually integral, metaphysical stuff.

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« Reply #119 on: July 15, 2015, 12:45:12 pm »
I was just thinking, having been visiting Bakker's TPB several times this week...

Are the Dunyain, Inchoroi and Nonmen different representations of transhumanism and the dangers of it?

I could see each as embodying a different extreme.

The Dunyain as the amoral pursuit of logic and pragmatism.

The Inchoroi as the amoral pursuit of pleasure and hedonism.

The Nonmen as the amoral pursuit of immortality.

What would the implications of this be?  Are any of these things really 'good?'
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira