The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The White-Luck Warrior => Topic started by: Madness on October 15, 2013, 01:47:28 pm

Title: Nonmen Society
Post by: Madness on October 15, 2013, 01:47:28 pm
I apologize as there are a number of 'Nonmen &' threads around; much of the possible subject matter will overlap here so at some point later I will consolidate the various threads here as well (especially as Auriga might jump on this, having returned).

I want to speculate about the societal organization of the Nonmen pre-Womb Plague.

I was reminded about this in a few paragraphs of The Republic of Thieves and it's something I have thought on for some time now.

My first contention is that Nonmen experienced a rigid-caste system with Quya at the top. Sorcerous ability is in-part hereditary and the Quya are a hereditary caste. High Ainon serves as a metaphor for the Nonmen Mansions. Quya rule.

Also, the Nonmen don't seem to use Chorae. Mind you, we've not seen an Ishroi who isn't also a Quya. But it would make sense that if Quya are nobility and the Chorae were invented and then barred in their civil wars, then Quya rule.

Hrm. I'll see what thoughts accumulate.

I think this is a very important discussion. The Tusk says that Nonmen are False, which isn't true. Also, Nonmen society stumbles over Topoi and (maybe, simultaneously) Damnation. Arguably, only the Quya have to worry about Damnation. Yet all these issues will find themselves central to the events in Ishterebinth in TUC.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Wilshire on October 15, 2013, 10:41:58 pm
The Nonmen were the ones who banned the Aporos correct? That fits into your theory.

Though I'd like to point out that the Javreh warrior-slaves captains where given chorae.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Cüréthañ on October 15, 2013, 11:40:05 pm
Outlawing the aporos was a religious edict iirc - its in TTT glossary under chorae or aporos, I think. 
That suggests a religious caste that was able to make 'legal' rulings independent of and overiding local kings of mansion.

Likewise, quyan schools seem to have been independent to some extent from mansions.

Also, ishroi and quya are overlapping but distinct classes.  There are examples of non-quyan ishroi in 4-Revelations (e.g. the protagonist and the giant nonman who broke Wutteat's neck).  Also no indication that CC himself was quya.  I do not think we can say sorcerous ability was a prerequisite of rule, and it was certainly not a requisite for Ishroi.

Sorcerous ability (quya) was hereditary among nonmen, so likely a caste; although not strictly so.  As noted, some were seen as both ishroi and quya, also some seem to have been bound to schools and thus quya only (Mitrul etc) whilst others did the bidding of their kings (Mekeritrig) and still others were permitted to rule (NG).  So its a debatable point.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: The Great Scald on October 16, 2013, 09:43:23 am
Interesting thread.

My first contention is that Nonmen experienced a rigid-caste system with Quya at the top. Sorcerous ability is in-part hereditary and the Quya are a hereditary caste.


I agree. The Nonmen lived in a caste society, for sure. The classic Indo-European caste system, that of Vedic India and ancient Sparta, seems to fit the bill. Quya (sorcerer-priests) on top, then warrior-nobles, then merchants, then menial workers, and finally slaves on the bottom. Rulers are from the two top castes. Castes are hereditary, and I wouldn't be surprised if the Nonmen selected for sorcerous ability in certain gene pools (much like the Dunyain selected for amoral intelligence in their breeding), so the Quya probably have different genetics from their non-magical cousins.

So, yeah, a very caste-oriented and status-oriented society, with the men massively outnumbering the women. This gender disparity, and the weird sexual dynamics that resulted from it, would've led to lots of female hypergamy and male homosexuality ("the sodomite kings of Eärwa", as the Tusk calls them).

Quote
High Ainon serves as a metaphor for the Nonmen Mansions.

Erm, what? Where does it say that?
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: EkyannusIII on October 16, 2013, 06:41:32 pm
You're very right about the caste system paralells (which show up in odd locations in scifi/fantasy - c.f. the Mimbari in Babylon 5, who also follow the I.E. caste pattern), but this caught my eye:


So, yeah, a very caste-oriented and status-oriented society, with the men massively outnumbering the women. This gender disparity, and the weird sexual dynamics that resulted from it, would've led to lots of female hypergamy and male homosexuality ("the sodomite kings of Eärwa", as the Tusk calls them).

My impression was that the gender disparity was the direct result of the Womb Plague, since all the women died out, and that the sodomy was the outcome of that since, well, you know.  Did I miss something?
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Madness on October 16, 2013, 09:21:21 pm
Outlawing the aporos was a religious edict iirc - its in TTT glossary under chorae or aporos, I think. 
That suggests a religious caste that was able to make 'legal' rulings independent of and overiding local kings of mansion.

Quote from: Cu'jara Cinmoi, 2005
The Aporos is something I want to flesh out further in future books. The basic idea is this: the Quya first developed the Aporos in the prosecution of their own intercine wars, but it was quickly forbidden. The arrival of the Inchoroi allowed several renegade Quya to pursue their sorcerous interrogations, leading to the production of tens of thousands of Chorae, which were used throughout the Cuno-Inchoroi wars.

Likewise, quyan schools seem to have been independent to some extent from mansions.

I don't think Quyan "Schools" existed. From where are you interpreting this?

I do not think we can say sorcerous ability was a prerequisite of rule, and it was certainly not a requisite for Ishroi.

Well, this is my argument but we'll see how it fleshes out. I'm definitely asserting that at some point in Nonmen history, sorcerous ability became a prerequisite for rule.

Sorcerous ability (quya) was hereditary among nonmen, so likely a caste; although not strictly so.  As noted, some were seen as both ishroi and quya, also some seem to have been bound to schools and thus quya only (Mitrul etc) whilst others did the bidding of their kings (Mekeritrig) and still others were permitted to rule (NG).  So its a debatable point.

The first of the Nonmen to teach the Gnosis to humans was Gin'yursis (as an aside here, Bakker's Glossary and Zombie Three Seas quotes seem to be at odds here. It seems that preceeding the Nonmen Tutelage, Gin'yursis was in exile (ZTS) but yet during the Apocalypse is King of Cil-Aujas (Glossary). Also, the Wight's greatest student was the founder of the Mangaecca). Then the Siqu begin the Nonmen Tutelage and condone an orchestrated effort in collaborating with humans.

However, Nonmen don't seem to have formed Schools like men.

Quya (sorcerer-priests) on top, then warrior-nobles, then merchants, then menial workers, and finally slaves on the bottom. Rulers are from the two top castes. Castes are hereditary, and I wouldn't be surprised if the Nonmen selected for sorcerous ability in certain gene pools (much like the Dunyain selected for amoral intelligence in their breeding), so the Quya probably have different genetics from their non-magical cousins.

Quote
High Ainon serves as a metaphor for the Nonmen Mansions.

Erm, what? Where does it say that?

+1 to the former part of the post.

With the latter part, apologies, I'm just trying to draw a distinct analogy.

Again, my argument here is that the Quya ruled Nonmen society like the Scarlet Spires do High Ainon - and probably with none of the deception.

So, yeah, a very caste-oriented and status-oriented society, with the men massively outnumbering the women. This gender disparity, and the weird sexual dynamics that resulted from it, would've led to lots of female hypergamy and male homosexuality ("the sodomite kings of Eärwa", as the Tusk calls them).

My impression was that the gender disparity was the direct result of the Womb Plague, since all the women died out, and that the sodomy was the outcome of that since, well, you know.  Did I miss something?


No, I would agree. The label was probably derived from the fact that there were only Nonmen males when the Breaking of the Gates occurred and the line was written in the Book of Tribes by Angeshrael.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Cüréthañ on October 17, 2013, 02:22:03 am
I don't think Quyan "Schools" existed. From where are you interpreting this?
My lead in assumption was that Mihtrul was a quyan 'school' as I thought Mimara's mail was made of nimil.  Quite mistaken, it is as hard as nimil. 
Otherwise there is only the fact that the practitioners of the aporos were 'seduced' by the Inchies and then created chorae, which made me suspect some 'school' type grouping.
So agree with the fact that School is likely an inappropriate term for whatever system of organisation quya had for learning and practicing magic.
OTOH the siqu helped set up the Schools of the north, so perhaps it is likely that they were patterned after nonmen organisations.
Quote from: The False Dawn
The Artisan. The Siqu founder of the School of Contrivers, the Mihtrulic
I do not think we can say sorcerous ability was a prerequisite of rule, and it was certainly not a requisite for Ishroi.
Well, this is my argument but we'll see how it fleshes out. I'm definitely asserting that at some point in Nonmen history, sorcerous ability became a prerequisite for rule.

As noted, sorcerous ability is hereditary amongst nonmen, but rule does not appear so.  There are no nonman princes after all. 

TTT glossary describes Ishroi as the name given to the nonmen warrior castes.  Note plural. 
Quya is the generic name for nonmen magi.
Siqu is the term for nonmen involved in the Tutelage.

Which leaves us with one broad term for some warrior castes that could include quya and/or siqu. :(

Interestingly, there is some discrimination between Ishroi and Quya when RSB wants to make clear that certain individuals are not Quya:
Quote from: The False Dawn
Two Ishroi, renowned for their valour–Misariccas and Runidil–and one Quya… ... Cet’ingira.

More interesting stuff, Gilcunya is described as the holy tongue of the nonmen quya and is a debased version of Auja-Gilcunni, the base language of Cunuroi - seperate again from Ihrimsu, which the nonmen of Ishterebinth speak. 

Culturally, this suggests different languages between mansions.
 
Can we assume that quya were more generally involved with religious and philosophical matters when they were not also Ishroi? 
4 revelations suggests that Ishroi spent most of their time in the field (the curse of Ishroi is to not know that their children are their own).
This would leave little time for religious, administrative and other more productive roles required in a functioning society.

There are more references to Ishroi than Quya in general when we read through the Cuno-Inchoroi wars Neither CC or NJ show any indication of being more than Ishroi.  NJ cuts off CC's head in their final encounter, in4Revelations we see CC struck down by a nimil spear.  This suggests physical combat rather than sorcerous.  So if CC was Quya, then NJ must've held a chorae, in which case NJ could not be Quya.  Logically, it appears at least one nonman king was not Quya.

Ciogli breaks Wutteat's neck with his bare hands.  Ingalira (Siol Ishroi) strangled Vshikcru (inchie).
NC in 4 revelations is Ishroi but not Quya.

Apologies for the meandering post :p
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Madness on October 17, 2013, 04:56:07 am
Nah, that was great.

I don't think Quyan "Schools" existed. From where are you interpreting this?
My lead in assumption was that Mihtrul was a quyan 'school' as I thought Mimara's mail was made of nimil.  Quite mistaken, it is as hard as nimil. 
Otherwise there is only the fact that the practitioners of the aporos were 'seduced' by the Inchies and then created chorae, which made me suspect some 'school' type grouping.
So agree with the fact that School is likely an inappropriate term for whatever system of organisation quya had for learning and practicing magic.
OTOH the siqu helped set up the Schools of the north, so perhaps it is likely that they were patterned after nonmen organisations.
Quote from: The False Dawn
The Artisan. The Siqu founder of the School of Contrivers, the Mihtrulic

If I had to guess from what we know, I'd hazard that the twelve original Gnostic Schools of Sauglish organized around the specialties of their Siqu patrons?

I do not think we can say sorcerous ability was a prerequisite of rule, and it was certainly not a requisite for Ishroi.
Well, this is my argument but we'll see how it fleshes out. I'm definitely asserting that at some point in Nonmen history, sorcerous ability became a prerequisite for rule.

As noted, sorcerous ability is hereditary amongst nonmen, but rule does not appear so.  There are no nonman princes after all. 

TTT glossary describes Ishroi as the name given to the nonmen warrior castes.  Note plural. 
Quya is the generic name for nonmen magi.
Siqu is the term for nonmen involved in the Tutelage.

Which leaves us with one broad term for some warrior castes that could include quya and/or siqu. :(

Interestingly, there is some discrimination between Ishroi and Quya when RSB wants to make clear that certain individuals are not Quya:
Quote from: The False Dawn
Two Ishroi, renowned for their valour–Misariccas and Runidil–and one Quya… ... Cet’ingira.

Quya specifically applies to hereditary sorcerers, no?

But otherwise, I'd agree - Quya can be Ishroi and Siqu but Ishroi and Siqu cannot earn the title Quya.

This seems to be feeding more and more into my speculation that Quya is a more rigid label, while Ishroi and Siqu are more flexible.

More interesting stuff, Gilcunya is described as the holy tongue of the nonmen quya and is a debased version of Auja-Gilcunni, the base language of Cunuroi - seperate again from Ihrimsu, which the nonmen of Ishterebinth speak. 

Culturally, this suggests different languages between mansions.

Definitely some confounding variables here. I'll need to check out my TDTCB for the language tree.

Can we assume that quya were more generally involved with religious and philosophical matters when they were not also Ishroi? 
4 revelations suggests that Ishroi spent most of their time in the field (the curse of Ishroi is to not know that their children are their own).
This would leave little time for religious, administrative and other more productive roles required in a functioning society.

If I remember correctly, in Plato's Republic the Guardian class mate by lottery. I've wondered what that line was supposed to mean otherwise, if not an analogy to that.

We know so little of the Nonmen religious roles - but I would argue (and have been ;)) that Quya handled all the administrative roles.

There are more references to Ishroi than Quya in general when we read through the Cuno-Inchoroi wars Neither CC or NJ show any indication of being more than Ishroi.  NJ cuts off CC's head in their final encounter, in4Revelations we see CC struck down by a nimil spear.  This suggests physical combat rather than sorcerous.  So if CC was Quya, then NJ must've held a chorae, in which case NJ could not be Quya.  Logically, it appears at least one nonman king was not Quya.

Good call. Damn dissociation.

Ciogli breaks Wutteat's neck with his bare hands.  Ingalira (Siol Ishroi) strangled Vshikcru (inchie).
NC in 4 revelations is Ishroi but not Quya.

Apologies for the meandering post :p

Well now.

How about that Su'juroit, the Witch-King?
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Cüréthañ on October 17, 2013, 07:41:23 am
Here's the reference on Quya as hereditary sorcerers:

The Siqu need not be Quya, though they could be. The ability to see and work sorcery is heritable, though far less so in Men than in Nonmen. The Quya are in fact hereditary sorcerers.

And a quote refering to the Quya as a caste:

The sorcery of the Three Seas, Anagogic (and Daimotic) sorcery, arose from its shamanistic roots without the benefit of the Quya, the Nonmen sorcerer caste, whose sorcery was ancient before the Tusk was even written. The Gnosis, the sorcery of the Ancient North, is the result of what was called the Nonman Tutelage, a period in ancient Norsirai history marked by cultural exchanges between Nonmen and Men. The Gnosis is simply what the Anagogis could be, if the proper conceptual leaps were made...

And one that refers to Siqu as a caste:

The old Siqu caste, as well as that of the Quya, have transformed considerably over the years.

There.  Now our knowledge of nonmen castes is even more muddied :p
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Madness on October 17, 2013, 01:39:53 pm
Those are all from ZTS, neh? Just trying to place the quotes in mine mind.

Good stuff, Curethan.

Hrm.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Davias on October 17, 2013, 08:02:54 pm
Man! Every time I understand some things in Bakker's books, a thread pops up, with a dozen new questions... 8)

A side question to the topic:
Do we know, if Quya mages were damned before the arriving of the inchoroi?
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Cüréthañ on October 18, 2013, 02:38:48 am
Yep, all quotes in my previous post are from 3c's, Madness.

Davias, the nonmen almost certainly knew of damnation prior to the Fall.  The references to nonmen having walked outside would back this up, assuming they also predate the inchies' arrival.
It seems they believed they could mask their voices from the agencies and find oblivion instead of damnation.
The inchies claim this is wrong.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: The Great Scald on October 18, 2013, 06:58:40 am
Plz, take it to the other dozen topics about Nonmen and damnation. Do we really need another one?

My impression was that the gender disparity was the direct result of the Womb Plague, since all the women died out, and that the sodomy was the outcome of that since, well, you know.  Did I miss something?

The Cinial'jin story on Bakker's blog says that the "curse of the Ishroi" is that they never knew the paternity of their kids. Lots of female cheating, and little of the religious misogynism that we see in Eärwa's human societies. This seems to fit with the idea that Nonwomen were always fewer than Nonmen, making them a lot more valuable.

(Female overpopulation = men are more valuable than women, society is balanced in men's favor, and one man fucking several women is common. Male overpopulation = women are more valuable than men, society is balanced in women's favor, and female cheating with higher-status men is common.)
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Cüréthañ on October 18, 2013, 07:43:25 am
Good points, Auriga. 

Though, NS's wife does say it's the curse of the Ishroi, specifically.  I read it as meaning it was the warrior caste getting their lawns mowed regular like.
What about the other castes?

It might be like the Spartan warrior class.

Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Madness on October 18, 2013, 01:45:41 pm
To minimize commentary on damnation - sci and I had the makings of a grand theory, which unfortunately ties these two subjects together. The Topoi that form due to the mines of the Nonmen and their treatment of the Emwama make it a social issue.

More importantly, we know absolutely nothing about Nonmen gender relations. Did they share humanity's gender prohibition of sorcery, for instance?

How much can we actually take from the Curse of the Ishroi line. Is it clandestine, 'cheating,' or is it state-sanctioned like I think Curethan is suggesting?

Not to detract from you suggestions, Auriga, I'm just not sure how much conjecture we can actually support right now.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Madness on October 18, 2013, 04:33:56 pm
More groundless speculation.

Since Quya are hereditary sorcerers, it seems likely to me that Quyan Families would organize around each other. I get a vary mafia-like feeling from this speculation.

As noted in human society, rogue sorcerers are a threat to status-quo. You can't have that accounted for power, running around as an x-factor. In human society, the Schools arose due to the condemnation of sorcery by the Tusk (which seems to throw a wrench into the Siqu founding the Schools or the Schools reflecting the particularities of Patron Siqu?). Chorae became a check and balance against the Schools, lest cities and states become a reflection of High Ainon.

In Nonmen Society, Chorae didn't exist to occupy the same social niche. For a functional society, the same rule of power applies; you can't just have rogue sorcerers doing what they want with society due to their individual power.

Now we don't know how the Nonmen Kings became Kings (and Curethan offered a pretty tight dissociation that either Nin'janjin or Cu'jara Cinmoi wasn't Quya, therefore negating sorcery as a prerequisite for rule). However, I'm going to take a wild guess and say that Su'juroit became the Witch-King strictly due to his sorcerous ability (and/or possible demonic possession by an agency ;)).

Overall, it seems to make sense to me that Quya being hereditary sorcerers would put 'the family' first as it were, which would make them one pillar of social structure - it certainly seems to make them a greater fulcrum than simply being a 'noble family,' if your whole family is sorcerous.

Food for thought.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: locke on October 18, 2013, 10:16:52 pm
Also, with schoolmen not marrying nor forming families, they're more or less pulled out of the gene pool, which starves and weakens the schools over the millenia.  Sure there are some bastards around, but that's pretty significantly different from the presumably greater numbers of children born in legitimate fashion.

That also raises the question that the curse of the Nroni fisherman "to never know if your children are your own" meaning that the Mandate probably use the cants of compulsion to fuck women and then cull the magical kids. 
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Cüréthañ on October 18, 2013, 11:31:56 pm
Ha! Sounds suitably Bakkerian Locke, but depends on whether the Mandate understood the principles of eugenics in the same way we do ;)
 
Expanding on my thoughts that the Ishroi caste were like the Spartiate rather than Plato's Republic, here is a wiki reference that neatly covers my reasoning on the 'curse of the Ishro'i.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spartiate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spartiate) 

Given that the nonmen were kind of like the Greek gods in their form and passions, I think we can see why their wives would be inclined to play around behind their backs.  We even have the example of Cimoira where a high ranked Ishroi's wife got jiggy with Sirwatta, a human slave.

That same instance mentions the Judges of the Ishroi, which sounds like another sub-category within nonman society. 

Certainly, we can reason from examples that Quya served in military, administrative, religious, crafting and philosophical/'scientific' roles.  It's possible, given the long lifespan of Cunoroi that they might function in these roles at different points in their lives.

Also interesting is the effect of hereditary sorcery.  Does this mean that Quya were also comprised of females prior to the womb plague?  Did this require both parents be Quya?  What was the incidence of the Few amongst nonmen? It certainly seems like they were more common than amongst men.  Perhaps 1/2000 rather than 1/200,000 (my rough estimation).

Su'juriot possibly adds more fuel to my theory that being Quya is incidental to the qualities required for rule.  Why else the special designation as 'Witch-king'.  Surely this serves to differentiate him from a standard king. ;)
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Madness on October 19, 2013, 01:43:00 pm
That also raises the question that the curse of the Nroni fisherman "to never know if your children are your own" meaning that the Mandate probably use the cants of compulsion to fuck women and then cull the magical kids. 

Is this a misnomer? Is that line really used to describe the Nroni and the Ishroi?

Expanding on my thoughts that the Ishroi caste were like the Spartiate rather than Plato's Republic, here is a wiki reference that neatly covers my reasoning on the 'curse of the Ishro'i.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spartiate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spartiate)

Sorry, Curethan, I've read that twice now - I can't seem to find where it says anything about they relationships except that because they marry late, birthrates are low (which is sourceless anyhow)?

Given that the nonmen were kind of like the Greek gods in their form and passions, I think we can see why their wives would be inclined to play around behind their backs.  We even have the example of Cimoira where a high ranked Ishroi's wife got jiggy with Sirwatta, a human slave.

That same instance mentions the Judges of the Ishroi, which sounds like another sub-category within nonman society.

"The Judges of the Ishroi were perplexed: such a thing had never happened before" (TTT Glossary, p543). It's not enough data? But the Judges line does suggest some internal oversight.

Also interesting is the effect of hereditary sorcery.  [1]Does this mean that Quya were also comprised of females prior to the womb plague?  [2]Did this require both parents be Quya?  [3]What was the incidence of the Few amongst nonmen? It certainly seems like they were more common than amongst men.  Perhaps 1/2000 rather than 1/200,000 (my rough estimation).

1. At this point, we could hazard either way about the gender rules. I'm going to guess that females were for now.

2. Quya borne definitely would have had two Quyan parents - it'd be like 'noble bloodline' except that the purity of your bloodline determines sorcerous ability. I'm sure the hereditary Quya took relations very seriously (I'm thinking like sorcerous Bene Gesserit).

3. I'm not sure about your ratios (they could be accurate?) but in lieu of possible answer [2], I'm thinking that the Nonmen would have tried to avoid the results of inbreeding but if requiring both Quyan parents, there is certainly going to be a higher population than occurring randomly in human population especially depending how many initial separate lineages there were.

Su'juriot possibly adds more fuel to my theory that being Quya is incidental to the qualities required for rule.  Why else the special designation as 'Witch-king'.  Surely this serves to differentiate him from a standard king. ;)

Truth...
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Cüréthañ on October 19, 2013, 01:54:03 pm
Sorry, Curethan, I've read that twice now - I can't seem to find where it says anything about they relationships except that because they marry late, birthrates are low (which is sourceless anyhow)?

This part:
"Spartiate youths enrolled in military training (agoge) from the age of seven onwards to thirty (the age of full citizenship).  From that age until they became too old to fight, they would live in their barracks, visiting their families (and later, their wives) only when they could sneak out."

Iirc, according to Xenophon they were also encouraged to develop 'close relations' with their fellows so that they would fight harder for each other, but that is incidental.

Now add to that sort of scenario the fact that the Cunoroi Mansions seemed to spend a large amount of time warring amongst themselves (see the constant interruptions in the Cuno-Inchoroi wars before the womb-plague) and I feel like they would also spend a lot of time on campaign besieging their foes and/or garrisoning their conquests.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Madness on October 20, 2013, 03:24:09 pm
I see a little clearer now.

We seem to have settled on assumptions of gender in our assertions.

The question then becomes one of whether the Nonman females were Ishroi (or Quya, Siqu, Judge) or if they were somehow or another barred or constrained from equal positions in Nonman Society?

Women aren't Ishroi (Sparta) or Women are Ishroi (Plato's Guardians).
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: twooars on October 22, 2013, 06:59:49 am

More interesting stuff, Gilcunya is described as the holy tongue of the nonmen quya and is a debased version of Auja-Gilcunni, the base language of Cunuroi - seperate again from Ihrimsu, which the nonmen of Ishterebinth speak. 

Culturally, this suggests different languages between mansions.

Apologies if this has been brought up earlier (and for taking the discussion back to much earlier in the thread!), but I thought this made sense, the Quya using a different language for their sorcery (which I presume is what 'holy' implies?), and not Ihrimsu which a common tongue...

Quote
“Vulgar languages, especially when native, stand too close to the press of life. Their meanings are too easily warped by our insights and experiences. The sheer other-ness of Gilcûnya serves to insulate the semantics of sorcery from the inconstancies of our lives.

Bakker, R. Scott (2010-05-06). The Thousandfold Thought (Prince of Nothing) (Kindle Locations 3415-3417). Orbit. Kindle Edition.
and
Quote
Gilcûnya—The tongue of the Nonmen Quya and the Gnostic Schools, thought to be a debased version of Auja-Gilcûnni, the so-called “ground” (or first) tongue of the Cûnuroi.

Bakker, R. Scott (2010-05-06). The Thousandfold Thought (Prince of Nothing) (Kindle Locations 9844-9845). Orbit. Kindle Edition.
Which may mean that the Quya use Gilcunya to preserve the meaning of their sorcery, just like the Mandate, but doesn't mean much to Nonman society in general because it is a derivative of an already ancient and not commonly used tongue, Auja-Gilcûnni?

Ihrimsu, the glossary says, is the tongue of Injor-Niyas (=Ishterebinth?), the last Nonmen nation - which, as Curethan says, might suggest different languages in different mansions.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Madness on October 22, 2013, 12:20:24 pm
Rather than do schoolwork, I've been rereading TJE and a small point of corroboration, Curethan, twooars (Mansions are individually whole cultures, changing names, etc):

Quote from: TJE, p216
The hood bowed to the tabletop. "I can no longer remember, I have known Ishterebinth, I think ... But it was not called such then."

And the one I wanted to drop off for thoughts, a couple lines later:

Quote from: p216
"Who was your Quya Master? From which Line do you hail?"

My bolding, capitalization by the text.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Meyna on October 22, 2013, 12:36:30 pm
Quote from: p216
"Who was your Quya Master? From which Line do you hail?"

My bolding, capitalization by the text.

The second question could be a follow-up to the first (perhaps magic split into different subdisciplines, much like martial arts of our world), or it could be a separate, unrelated question pertaining to genealogy or Mansion/culture.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Madness on October 22, 2013, 12:41:06 pm
They were too unconnected thoughts, for sure.

Rather I'm hoping that 'Line' specifically can argue my 'Quya Families' organization (thus, domination) of Nonmen Society.

Though we've also got the 'Mansions are Cultures' and 'Gender-Class Inclusion' going; do Mansion represent City-States, culturally sufficient themselves and are Nonmen females Quya/Ishroi/Siqu/Judge/Etc on par with Nonmen males - probably a number of other interesting threads we haven't yet deciphered.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Cüréthañ on October 22, 2013, 03:34:28 pm
Holy language is important in the context of the question as to whether Quya were considered accursed pre-Fall.  Again, that tangent belongs in other threads though.

Interesting because it also suggests that Cunoroi culture was not static, a dead holy language, like Latin, might signify a dark age where knowledge was hoarded by the priest class; in this case the Quya priests/Judges.

Lack of significant female Ishroi heroes or rulers pre-womb plague suggests generic gender roles I'm afraid, at least in the warrior class.  ...I wonder if non-women were baldies too?
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Madness on October 22, 2013, 04:05:10 pm
Lack of significant female Ishroi heroes or rulers pre-womb plague suggests generic gender roles I'm afraid, at least in the warrior class.  ...I wonder if non-women were baldies too?

I don't support this thought. Cu'jara Cinmoi, Nin'janjin, and Sin'niroiha seem to be the only remaining Nonmen Kings at the time of the Fall - from ZTS we know that Nonmen Civilization is already in decline for some reason, neh?

But to say that there are no Nonmen females mentioned, therefore they do not exist, doesn't seem right either.

Aside, I figure Nonmen females were hairless as well - it's only after Mimara shaves her head that Cleric starts to talk to her about her reminding him.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Francis Buck on November 07, 2013, 08:27:23 pm
There are more references to Ishroi than Quya in general when we read through the Cuno-Inchoroi wars Neither CC or NJ show any indication of being more than Ishroi.  NJ cuts off CC's head in their final encounter, in4Revelations we see CC struck down by a nimil spear.  This suggests physical combat rather than sorcerous.  So if CC was Quya, then NJ must've held a chorae, in which case NJ could not be Quya.  Logically, it appears at least one nonman king was not Quya.

That's a pretty damn good catch. Hopefully it turns out legit and isn't just an authorial slip-up, though I'd wonder how any non-sorcerors could maintain their power if chorae were outlawed (I guess just chalk it up to Nonman honor)?
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Madness on November 07, 2013, 10:00:23 pm
That was has been my argument, FB.

Quya seemed pretty likely to dominate Nonman society... We're missing pieces.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Wilshire on November 09, 2013, 12:47:41 am
Well remember that Cleric was pretty badass even without his songs. The Quya are not like our overweight wizard.

Could have been a point of pride to brake a dragon without the words?
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Ciogli on November 11, 2013, 11:00:01 pm
I think the Nonmen are the most fascinating part of Earwa, their history should be a major plot point of the TUC. T don't think their civilization was in decline at the time of the Fall, their were nine high mansions at that time. With Cujara Cinmoi and Siol being the single strongest polity. But the Nonmen kingdoms seem to be much bigger than their human descendants, with nine mansions controlling the whole of Earwa. Siol seems to have been in the same area as Kuniuri, because Viri wich was just norh in Agongorea and Cil-Aujus in the three seas just south. If they only build their cities in mountains that would put Siol in the Demua mountains, maybe the Nonmen ruins Kellhuss fights Cet'Ingira could be the entrance. But more likely is that Siol is like Doriath in that the capital city is centrally located near a great river, putting Siol along the Anduin. probably near Sauglish or the other great cities of the Kuniuri. They may have built their first cities near the ruins of Siol.  Though the high mansion controls the whole territory and gives it name to the kingdom, but there must be smaller mansions throughout the territory like the one in which Moenghus built his abode. I really hope Bakker does a Silmarillion type series for the Cuno-Inchie wars after the second apoc is completed. On the Ishroi or Quya point, I think these two classes maybe somewhat interchangeable, with Cleric and Cet' Ingira being both, I think a good bet is that all the royal lines had a mixture of both with the rulers being both. The line by Cleric where he says to the CC statue that his voice has cracked mountains implied to me that he was a sorcerer. Maybe kings choose to fight each other in single armed combat, or the in the heat of the moment Nin' Janjin surprised Cujara Cinmoi before he could react. I fervently hope that Nin is still alive somewhere in Golgotterath, such a character needs to make an appearance in TUC and have his story told, the first Nonman traitor who helped doom his own people for vengeance, but his lack of mention since the Cuno-Inchoroi wars is making me doubtful of his fate.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Madness on November 12, 2013, 01:21:57 am
Sorry for the piecemeal response.

I think the Nonmen are the most fascinating part of Earwa, their history should be a major plot point of the TUC.

I'm sure it will be.

T don't think their civilization was in decline at the time of the Fall, their were nine high mansions at that time.

I'll have to find the quote but Bakker's written that Nonman Civilization was declined far past their peak by the time of the Fall.

Though the high mansion controls the whole territory and gives it name to the kingdom, but there must be smaller mansions throughout the territory like the one in which Moenghus built his abode.

Another Bakker quote has it that the Southern Mansions may have been ruined before the Breaking of the Gates. No indications as to whether the difference in size was significant. We also know from Moenghus (so speculation) that the Nonpeople pilgrimaged to the Kyudean Mansion from all across Earwa to bathe because bathing was holy to them. Also, Inri Sejenus allegedly ascended at Kyudea, not Shimeh.

There seems to be something specifically important about it.

I really hope Bakker does a Silmarillion type series for the Cuno-Inchie wars after the second apoc is completed.

Over the years, Bakker has mentioned wanting to do stand-alones of the First Apocalypse and one centered around Cu'jara Cinmoi (likely, the Cuno-Inchoroi wars).

On the Ishroi or Quya point, I think these two classes maybe somewhat interchangeable, with Cleric and Cet' Ingira being both, I think a good bet is that all the royal lines had a mixture of both with the rulers being both.

In TAE, Mimara and Achamian both refer to Cleric being both Quya and Ishroi - Achamian in particular notes that Nil'giccas being Ishroi makes him more of a minority than Quya at this point in their degraded history.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: EkyannusIII on November 16, 2013, 04:43:10 pm
Sorry for the piecemeal response.


T don't think their civilization was in decline at the time of the Fall, their were nine high mansions at that time.

I'll have to find the quote but Bakker's written that Nonman Civilization was declined far past their peak by the time of the Fall.

Please do.  If they were in considerable decline by then it would imply inter alia that the Inchroi would not have been as much of a difficulty for them had Nonmen strength been at it's peak during the Fall.

How long did the Inchoroi wait in orbit? And why didn't they just land? What damaged the Ark to badly that it could not fly any more? Crackpot:
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Wilshire on November 16, 2013, 05:11:51 pm
The reason the Inchoroi crash landed is because they had lost the means to repair their own ship. Either through war or some other kind of attrition their scientists and engineers (those with the knowledge to run the ship) where mostly all dead. They where the moribund survivors of some terrible war.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Madness on November 16, 2013, 06:08:15 pm
I very much like the idea of the Inchoroi fleeing from something worse.

And EkyannusIII, you don't have to spoiler in this subforum until TUC comes out.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Triskele on November 24, 2013, 10:04:49 pm
There's something that still isn't entirely clear to me about Erratics. 

Is going "Wayward" something that is inevitable for all Nonmen but just hasn't happened to the "Intact" yet?  Or is it something that they are susceptible to as a species but only some fall victim to?

I am certainly quite excited to see Ishterebinth in the next book.  The Nonmen, like the Consult, have been a fascinating but mostly off-camera element in the series thus for.

But a question there (man, WLW opened up so many mysteries):  Can Cleric's account of Ishterebinth be trusted?  He tells Achamian that Ishterebinth has turned to Min-Uroikas.  Do we take this literally?  Because he says it pretty clearly and suggests that only pride prevented him from doing it too.

We already knew that some number of Nonmen had gone over to the Consult some time ago, but before this line from Cleric, it seemed to me that we had every reason to believe that there was one still-functioning Nonman society that had not turned to the Consult.

So here are some possibilities, it seems to me:

-Cleric's line shouldn't be taken as scripture...maybe he just meant that a lot of Nonmen had gone over but not everyone.  Or perhaps Cleric has been gone far too long to have anything reliable to say

-Cleric's line should be taken literally...all the Nonmen are trending towards Erratic and have gone over.  Kellhus has sent Moe, Serwa, and Sorweel to Consult agents

-Ishterebinth has been in some kind of uneasy alliance or truce w/ the Consult...their society persists, but they're not warring to destroy the Ark anymore, and now they're genuinely interested in the possibility of the Aspect-Emperor who has accomplished such amazing things

The part I'm caught up on is that it's hard not to take Cleric's line seriously, but it's hard to imagine Kellhus not knowing that Ishterebinth was lost to the Consult.

Thoughts?
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: locke on November 25, 2013, 08:50:33 am

Thoughts?
maybe his sense of his place in time at the moment he was talking to akka was... erratic?

Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Madness on November 25, 2013, 12:49:02 pm
There's something that still isn't entirely clear to me about Erratics. 

Is going "Wayward" something that is inevitable for all Nonmen but just hasn't happened to the "Intact" yet?  Or is it something that they are susceptible to as a species but only some fall victim to?

The Wayward seem to emulate (or are emulated by) Cleric's attitude that his only penance can be fighting against the Weapon-Races of the Consult. To me. Intact are functional, Erratic specifically need to cause trauma, and Wayward scourge the Weapon-Races in embracing their Erraticism (Achamian thinks that Cleric must be coming to love the Scalpers that the Skin Eaters lose and gain throughout the ebbs and flow of their craft but then it's about Mimara's resemblance to Nil'giccas's wife and Achamian being Seswatha - all of which makes me think that the events of the WLW were the first time Cleric fell into the Erractic loop).

But a question there (man, WLW opened up so many mysteries):  Can Cleric's account of Ishterebinth be trusted?  He tells Achamian that Ishterebinth has turned to Min-Uroikas.  Do we take this literally?  Because he says it pretty clearly and suggests that only pride prevented him from doing it too.

Maybe. Maybe not.


Thoughts?
maybe his sense of his place in time at the moment he was talking to akka was... erratic?

Maybe this - where Nil'giccas is remembering a long-ago conversion instead of contemporary events.

We already knew that some number of Nonmen had gone over to the Consult some time ago, but before this line from Cleric, it seemed to me that we had every reason to believe that there was one still-functioning Nonman society that had not turned to the Consult.

Truth. We were so led to believe.

So here are some possibilities, it seems to me:

-Ishterebinth has been in some kind of uneasy alliance or truce w/ the Consult...their society persists, but they're not warring to destroy the Ark anymore, and now they're genuinely interested in the possibility of the Aspect-Emperor who has accomplished such amazing things

This, I feel like it's an issue of complicit authority. The leaders of this society have so "turned" and, in doing so, have oriented their society accordingly, whether the society at large got to make that conscious decision is another story.

Plus - we do have to consider the possibility that the Nonmen, as a whole, found out about Nil'giccas' lie, concerning the "truth" of the Inverse Fire. Perhaps that is why Mekeritrig was in Sobel because he was on his way to break the milennial old-news that their ancient Foe was right? Therefore, pride turned Nil'giccas from them.

It's a Mansion. I figure there's a civil war going on (or Achamian bringing news of a Dead Nil'giccas and wearing his armor as proof is going to spark one. Or Serwa and Mimara will spark one)... etc, etc.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Cüréthañ on November 25, 2013, 01:06:41 pm
Aurang's reference to Ishteribinth implies they are heavily compromised, but it doesn't seem like the thing one would say of allies?
Paraphrasing: "there is little that occurs in Ishteribinth that we are not aware of..."
Iirc that is in response to speculation that the dunyain are a product of the non-men.

I always felt that the Mansions were akin to bronze age city states rather than dominions of specific areas like traditional fantasy kingdoms, and that the sparseness of their population was due to their low birthrate and long lifespans.

To my faulty memory, it seems that the Bakker quote Madness might be thinking of actually refers to the Inchies - that they were moribund and had lost proper knowledge of their technology by the time they came to Earwa.  I don't recall any reference to where the Cunoroi were on their cultural or racial lifespan before the fall.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Madness on November 25, 2013, 01:42:53 pm
Aurang's reference to Ishteribinth implies they are heavily compromised, but it doesn't seem like the thing one would say of allies?
Paraphrasing: "there is little that occurs in Ishteribinth that we are not aware of..."
Iirc that is in response to speculation that the dunyain are a product of the non-men.

I always felt that the Mansions were akin to bronze age city states rather than dominions of specific areas like traditional fantasy kingdoms, and that the sparseness of their population was due to their low birthrate and long lifespans.

Who is to say what the context of Aurang's statements are... or how much of truth he shares with a soulless tool?

To my faulty memory, it seems that the Bakker quote Madness might be thinking of actually refers to the Inchies - that they were moribund and had lost proper knowledge of their technology by the time they came to Earwa.  I don't recall any reference to where the Cunoroi were on their cultural or racial lifespan before the fall.

I tried looking again today and all I found was the quote below but the context doesn't imply whether or not it's the "last Age" because of the Fall or cultural/societal deterioration. But no, I wasn't thinking of the Inchoroi/Moribund quote :-\.

Quote from: Cu'jara Cinmoi, Mar 2005
So far, the deepest the histories go is to the Fall, which is to say, the arrival of the Inchoroi in the last Age of Nonmen.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Wilshire on November 25, 2013, 05:57:29 pm
To my faulty memory, it seems that the Bakker quote Madness might be thinking of actually refers to the Inchies - that they were moribund and had lost proper knowledge of their technology by the time they came to Earwa.  I don't recall any reference to where the Cunoroi were on their cultural or racial lifespan before the fall.
I believe this is correct. After all, why would the Inchoroi fall from the sky and crash land if they knew how to properly fly their own ship? Its not like they got to the promised land and decided that they needed to kill 99% of their population as they landed.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Madness on November 26, 2013, 02:53:37 pm
Oh, Curethan's right about that quote - it's relatively easy to find.

For some reason, ZTS only allows me to search and then read the first page of results (if I click page 2, 3, 4, 5, it just loads up the first page again).

But I'm fairly sure about this other one. I will find the right combination of words or strategy (searching obsessively) to prove I'm right or crazy ;).
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Wilshire on November 26, 2013, 07:33:18 pm
But I'm fairly sure about this other one. I will find the right combination of words or strategy (searching obsessively) to prove I'm right or crazy ;).
Measure is unceasing.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Triskele on November 26, 2013, 11:43:29 pm
Aurang's reference to Ishteribinth implies they are heavily compromised, but it doesn't seem like the thing one would say of allies?
Paraphrasing: "there is little that occurs in Ishteribinth that we are not aware of..."
Iirc that is in response to speculation that the dunyain are a product of the non-men.

D'oh, can't believe I forgot to include that.  I'd agree that it doesn't sound like something you'd say about your allies.  Sounds like something you'd say about a place where you have spies or some ability to infiltrate.  And this was from the first series.  He references Nin-Ciljiras (sp) as if he's now the de-facto ruler of Ishterebinth.  So we can assume from that that Cleric is gone by this point. 

Kind of funny though...why does the Ordeal think that Nil'giccas is no longer king in Ishterebinth?  On their own, I get how men would have no real inkling of who rules in Ishterebinth.  But Kellhus almost certainly knows.  What motive could he have for maintaining the idea that Nil'giccas is still king there?  Anyone pondered that?
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Cüréthañ on November 27, 2013, 12:59:41 am
@ Triskele.

Cleric's monologing in TJE suggests he hasn't been in Ishterebinth for a loooong time.
He likely spent a lot of time hanging around in Cil Aujis before joining the skin eaters.

I think he's playing along with the Emisarry's lies.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Madness on November 27, 2013, 11:03:11 am
But I'm fairly sure about this other one. I will find the right combination of words or strategy (searching obsessively) to prove I'm right or crazy ;).
Measure is unceasing.

+1.

Aurang's reference to Ishteribinth implies they are heavily compromised, but it doesn't seem like the thing one would say of allies?
Paraphrasing: "there is little that occurs in Ishteribinth that we are not aware of..."
Iirc that is in response to speculation that the dunyain are a product of the non-men.

D'oh, can't believe I forgot to include that.  I'd agree that it doesn't sound like something you'd say about your allies.  Sounds like something you'd say about a place where you have spies or some ability to infiltrate.  And this was from the first series.  He references Nin-Ciljiras (sp) as if he's now the de-facto ruler of Ishterebinth.  So we can assume from that that Cleric is gone by this point.

Again, it seems to me a Wormtongue scenario - the ruling class of Ishterebinth is compromised by the Consult - but not all Nonmen have individually considered joining the Consult. I'm of the definitive assumption that there is a rift in Ishterebinth and any one of Serwa's Womb (Anasurimbor - Nonmen/Esmenet - whatever the fuck is up with her bloodline), Sorweel's Mask (Yatwer), Mimara (The Judging Eye), or Achamian (Nil'giccas' nimil armour) will trigger the civil unrest [in favor of Kellhus' plans].

Kind of funny though...why does the Ordeal think that Nil'giccas is no longer king in Ishterebinth?  On their own, I get how men would have no real inkling of who rules in Ishterebinth.  But Kellhus almost certainly knows.  What motive could he have for maintaining the idea that Nil'giccas is still king there?  Anyone pondered that?

- Where is it mentioned that the anyone of the Ordeal believes Nil'giccas isn't king? Serwa mentions Nil'giccas as King, Kellhus clearly perpetuates the lie with Nin'sariccas (probably because not revealing what you know for no good reason is great strategy), Proyas reflects on having sent thousands of ships towards Ishterebinth to treat with Nil'giccas... As far as whatever it is commonly disseminated among humans about the Nonmen, if they know anything, it seems that they know Nil'giccas is King.

- Because Kellhus has already decided how the Nonmen are going to react, they're already a variable considered and accounted for (whether by the Niom, by Achamian and Mimara, by any of his pre-determined pieces). He's hosting the Emissary to participate on Condition Ground? For instance, Aurang told Sarcellus the Second about Nin'Ciljiras' activity. Kellhus has certainly gotten as much, if not much more, information from the skin-spies as Moenghus the Elder did.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Triskele on November 27, 2013, 10:44:20 pm
- Where is it mentioned that the anyone of the Ordeal believes Nil'giccas isn't king? Serwa mentions Nil'giccas as King, Kellhus clearly perpetuates the lie with Nin'sariccas (probably because not revealing what you know for no good reason is great strategy), Proyas reflects on having sent thousands of ships towards Ishterebinth to treat with Nil'giccas... As far as whatever it is commonly disseminated among humans about the Nonmen, if they know anything, it seems that they know Nil'giccas is King.

My previous post was a terrible slip in which a typed in that sentence the exact opposite of what I meant.  An atrocity of a post.  And yet somehow so...memorable. 

Haha, yeah, I meant why does Kellhus allow the whole Ordeal to believe that the Nonman King is Nil'giccas when Kellhus clearly must know that Cleric is long gone and has been for some time.  That's what I was trying to get at. 

And it's not just that Kellhus could be going along w/ the Emissary's lies because it's more than that as you pointed out...several characters seems to believe that they are privy to the knowledge of who rules in Ishterebinth, but they are deceived.  Why the deception?
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Cüréthañ on November 27, 2013, 11:51:10 pm
And it's not just that Kellhus could be going along w/ the Emissary's lies because it's more than that as you pointed out...several characters seems to believe that they are privy to the knowledge of who rules in Ishterebinth, but they are deceived.  Why the deception?

I don't see why not. 
Kellhus isn't going to share information when he's running a double bluff.
It would suit the consult if they think Kellhus believes Ishterebinth is still run by a Siqu king.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Wilshire on November 28, 2013, 03:25:11 am
Why not the deception? He's been consistently lying to everyone for just about his entire stint in the three seas.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Borque on November 28, 2013, 09:59:53 am
The big question here - that we dont have the answer to, but Kellhus certainly has - is WHY Ishterebinth has joined the Consult.

I believe Kellhus has calculated that this reason is a very good one, from the Nonman perspective, and he won't be able to win them over.

So Kellhus will, somewhat surprisingly, massacre the shit out of the Quya with Chorae-tipped arrows at a convenient time, possibly on arrival, and then incinerate/dice all the non-sorcerous ones.

(click to show/hide)

We are heavily conditioned by Tolkien here, and automatically believe that elves (and thereby elf-analogues) will do the right thing in the end, and that they are somehow inherently "good", while Bakker repeatedly tells us through Akka and Serwa how different they are from us.   

ETA: Apparently the comment from Moe was in the Chapter 3 excerpt from TUC. Thus I have spoiler tagged it.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Cüréthañ on November 28, 2013, 10:16:32 am
I think so too.  The Intact may well be as common as leprechauns.

Damnation seems tied to the things nonmen can't forget.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Madness on November 28, 2013, 12:39:09 pm
Haha, yeah, I meant why does Kellhus allow the whole Ordeal to believe that the Nonman King is Nil'giccas when Kellhus clearly must know that Cleric is long gone and has been for some time.  That's what I was trying to get at. 

And it's not just that Kellhus could be going along w/ the Emissary's lies because it's more than that as you pointed out...several characters seems to believe that they are privy to the knowledge of who rules in Ishterebinth, but they are deceived.  Why the deception?

+1 to Curethan and Wilshire's responses to this. Is it deception or omission?

More strange than those highlights though (don't needlessly share information, deceive by omission) is that even Proyas, but by extension all peoples, doesn't seem to understand the benefits of having Quya (especially ridiculous as the Ordeal will be fighting full-blown Consult Erratics, at some point).

I mean, if even ten of the Quya of Ishterebinth are as devastating as Cleric, that would seem to pretty effectively balance against a whole School of Anagogic Sorcerers.

But ultimately, if I was Kellhus, I wouldn't share anything that might leak to the Consult - especially regarding my endgame.

Everyone is on a strictly need to know basis. And when they need to know, it's probably because their usefulness is at an end, and they are no longer needed.

The big question here - that we dont have the answer to, but Kellhus certainly has - is WHY Ishterebinth has joined the Consult.

Well, Nil'giccas' pride is entirely contextual to him withholding the existence of the Inverse Fire from the other Nonmen.

If they have wholesale joined the Consult, in my mind, and Nil'giccas left because of their decision, then it is because someone has told them the "truth" of the Inverse Fire.

However, to bullet-point:

- All of the Nonmen have turned to the Consult, Nil'giccas left because of this decision, and the Emissary, Nin'sariccas, lies to Kellhus.
- Some of the Nonmen have turned to the Consult, Nil'giccas left because of this change, and the Emissary, Nin'sariccas lies to Kellhus.
- Some of the Nonmen have turned to the Consult, Nil'giccas left because of this change, and the Emissary, Nin'sariccas tells Kellhus what he believes to be true.

(These don't include my preferential nerdanel that a Dunyain has Conditioned Ishterebinth.)
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Wilshire on November 28, 2013, 02:33:22 pm
The big question here - that we dont have the answer to, but Kellhus certainly has - is WHY Ishterebinth has joined the Consult.

I believe Kellhus has calculated that this reason is a very good one, from the Nonman perspective, and he won't be able to win them over.

So Kellhus will, somewhat surprisingly, massacre the shit out of the Quya with Chorae-tipped arrows at a convenient time, possibly on arrival, and then incinerate/dice all the non-sorcerous ones.

This theory is supported by Moe indicating to Sorweel that Team Niom will die quite soon.

We are heavily conditioned by Tolkien here, and automatically believe that elves (and thereby elf-analogues) will do the right thing in the end, and that they are somehow inherently "good", while Bakker repeatedly tells us through Akka and Serwa how different they are from us.
I like this whole post. Unfortunately I agree with pretty much all of it so I don't have much else to say.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Borque on November 28, 2013, 07:29:08 pm
I like this whole post. Unfortunately I agree with pretty much all of it so I don't have much else to say.
Thanks. I'm of course not 100% convinced this is how things will turn out, but I consider this is a very probable, though tragic and depressing,  outcome.

As I said, the "why", the reason Ishterebinth has turned, will be key.

On another note, I hope Scott provides an explanation for why Ishoriöl changed name to Ishterebinth. Dunno why I'm so curious about that one, but this question keeps bothering me for some reason.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Madness on November 28, 2013, 07:48:56 pm
As I said, the "why", the reason Ishterebinth has turned, will be key.

No thoughts on this then, Borque:

If they have wholesale joined the Consult, in my mind, and Nil'giccas left because of their decision, then it is because someone has told them the "truth" of the Inverse Fire.

I think that is the only reason the Intact would turn and the only reason other than greater trauma that the Erratics would turn.

On another note, I hope Scott provides an explanation for why Ishoriöl changed name to Ishterebinth. Dunno why I'm so curious about that one, but this question keeps bothering me for some reason.

Probably when Ishoriol became the Last of the Mansions after the Apocalypse and the loss of Cil-Aujus. Then "Exalted Hall" becomes "Exalted Stronghold?"
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Borque on November 28, 2013, 08:38:03 pm
As I said, the "why", the reason Ishterebinth has turned, will be key.

No thoughts on this then, Borque:

If they have wholesale joined the Consult, in my mind, and Nil'giccas left because of their decision, then it is because someone has told them the "truth" of the Inverse Fire.
I think that is the only reason the Intact would turn and the only reason other than greater trauma that the Erratics would turn.
Yes. If the Consult managed to convince them that Nil'G lied, for example by letting them send an Intact Ishterebinthian over to take a look at the IF for himself, that would do the trick.

Btw, I think Nil'giccas having lied about the IF is what Gin'Yursis refers to in Cil-Aujas, when he says "They betrayed... You betrayed...".

ETA: On the other hand, if the reason is something weaker than this, then Kellhus might be able to persuade them to actually join the Ordeal for real. Like, for example, Aurax promising not to send oceans of Sranc into Injor-Niyas in exchange for them not being an annoyance.

Quote
On another note, I hope Scott provides an explanation for why Ishoriöl changed name to Ishterebinth. Dunno why I'm so curious about that one, but this question keeps bothering me for some reason.

Probably when Ishoriol became the Last of the Mansions after the Apocalypse and the loss of Cil-Aujus. Then "Exalted Hall" becomes "Exalted Stronghold?"
I think it had changed names before Cil-Aujas fell. If the PoN Timeline wikia page at http://princeofnothing.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline is correct (can't check the TTT appendix myself atm) it changed names even before Mog-Pharau was summoned (see entry for year 2132).
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Madness on November 29, 2013, 02:01:26 pm
Yes. If the Consult managed to convince them that Nil'G lied, for example by letting them send an Intact Ishterebinthian over to take a look at the IF for himself, that would do the trick.

...

ETA: On the other hand, if the reason is something weaker than this, then Kellhus might be able to persuade them to actually join the Ordeal for real. Like, for example, Aurax promising not to send oceans of Sranc into Injor-Niyas in exchange for them not being an annoyance.

The Nonman are really angsty. I'm sure Mekeritrig could convince the Nonmen to believe him at this point in the game, without the IF.

But I think Kellhus himself has a great argument in allowing the Nonmen to hybrid with Serwa (or Mimara, if Esmenet's line has Nonman blood and Kellhus knew this) (though, obviously, these will continue to raise challenges and issues with Bakker's treatment of women - which I will enjoy the hell out of debating).

Btw, I think Nil'giccas having lied about the IF is what Gin'Yursis refers to in Cil-Aujas, when he says "They betrayed... You betrayed...".

Me too. I'm glad Bakker is so diligently meticulous. There is a storied past to the Nonmen and I cannot wait :). Four Revelations also offers dissension commentary regarding Cu'jara Cinmoi (who I think colluded to betray with Nil'giccas over whatever the contemporary issue was).

I think it had changed names before Cil-Aujas fell. If the PoN Timeline wikia page at http://princeofnothing.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline is correct (can't check the TTT appendix myself atm) it changed names even before Mog-Pharau was summoned (see entry for year 2132).

I'd guess Mannish Pronoun then (as "apparently" Ishual is)? Does it ever say what Cil-Aujas is supposed to mean? Or is Aenaratiol the true name of the Mansion and not the name for the Ziggurat mountain peak? (TJE, p382).

EDIT: The PON wiki is a very bastardized version of the Glossary. While the creator (who did an excellent job regardless) did work the available citations, some descriptions are speculative and many have been cut and pasted so to provide the entirety a greater sense of narrative (and chronological) structure (most obviously, the timeline).
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: MG on March 11, 2014, 06:14:08 pm
@ Madness - would be strange if the Consult added the bit about Nonmen being false and it's true.  :)

It still bugs me that the Nonmen banned the Aporos--the mansions could use chorae against each other just as well as school vs school.  That the prohibition was 'religious' doesn't seem to matter much to the practicality of chorae, UNLESS they mean 'religious' like they think using chorae will upset gods that will wreak general, random havoc on Earwe.

I had never thought about all of that stuff together about Gin-yursis--amazing.  This guy needs to be in the story MORE.  Prominent role in Book 1 of the First Apocalypse?

"Quya specifically applies to hereditary sorcerers, no?"  Oh yeah.  That emissary/suspected son of Nil'Giccas is going to do some badass magic.

About that witch-king--don't suppose that term means 'magic female ruler'?  What about Nonman witches?  Need an Atrocity Tale about that.

All this speculation about quyan bloodlines has got me thinking--were the first pupils in the tutelage half-nonmen sons?  The mafia/family analogy extended into human lines?

I have sometimes wondered if all of Kellhus' attempts to contact/gain the last mansion are some kind of monstrous sacrifice to keep the Consult from knowing that he is aware that the last mansion belongs to the Ark.  This only makes sense if his knowledge of their secret is going to be some huge advantage either on the battlefield (can't see what it would be) or if Kellhus plans to use Ishterebinth, post Great Ordeal collapse.  I mean, he wants to delay any outright hostility beween the Ordeal the Nonmen until it is too late.

---------------------

@ Curethan - I kind of thought the narrative purpose of Auja-Gilcunni was to just mark a backwards limit on language.  Its unknown and has to stay that way or else Bakker's rabid fans will start bugging him for an even older language.  IDK

---------------------

@ Ciogli - I'm also hoping for a Silmarillion/Nonman thing.  Would be sweet.  Am also hoping to see Nin.  I really want him to have some kind of important role.  As first nonman to be cursed with immortality, he would be some kind of crazy yardstick for all the others.  I find Bakker's silence about Nin telling…

---------------------

@ EkyannusIII - I like your spoiler idea, but you could turn it around too.  The Inchoroi on Earwe are the most inept at doing what Inchoroi do.  :)

---------------------

@ Triskele - I agree with you that we shouldn't take Cleric's views on what happens in Ishterbinth as scripture--I think Bakker did that to just move another battline between Consult vs Foes to be inside of the mansion.  The scenes wouldn't be as cool unless there was indication that the Ordeal Sorweel and co left was also fighting inside the last mansion.

---------------------

@ Borque - I agree, you've put your finger on the mystery: why has Isterebinth fallen now?  Could be attrition (falling for the same reasons any nonman falls) or something cooler?  Consult say they can bring back the wives?  Can restore happy memories?  Are planning the biggest 'trauma that provokes memory' ever?

That's fucking awesome what you said about "they betrayed…you betrayed"  Love it.

---------------------

I'm also wondering if we are going to across any surprising 'good guy' sranc.  If there's been a tutelage for sranc too.  I find the idea impossible, but it would make a cool surprise.  Well-spoken sranc sitting around in plushy chairs, reading ancient tomes, sporting monocles.  If anyone had the time/resources to create an elevated sranc, it would be Ishterbinth.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Wilshire on March 11, 2014, 06:50:43 pm
Quote
All this speculation about quyan bloodlines has got me thinking--were the first pupils in the tutelage half-nonmen sons?  The mafia/family analogy extended into human lines?

I find this less than likely. Except for maybe 1 noteable (possible) exception, there has never been any successful interbreeding that we know of. Besides, I think teaching the new humans was condescending enough, trying to procreate with them would probably ostracize any of the Tutors from the remaining nonmen.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Madness on March 12, 2014, 12:06:39 am
@ Madness - would be strange if the Consult added the bit about Nonmen being false and it's true.  :)

+1 for nerdanel.

It still bugs me that the Nonmen banned the Aporos--the mansions could use chorae against each other just as well as school vs school.  That the prohibition was 'religious' doesn't seem to matter much to the practicality of chorae, UNLESS they mean 'religious' like they think using chorae will upset gods that will wreak general, random havoc on Earwe.

I think they banned the Chorae because it leveled the playing field too much, it took the skill out of having power over one another.

I had never thought about all of that stuff together about Gin-yursis--amazing.  This guy needs to be in the story MORE.  Prominent role in Book 1 of the First Apocalypse?

+1 for Gnosis-Giving Heretic.

About that witch-king--don't suppose that term means 'magic female ruler'?  What about Nonman witches?  Need an Atrocity Tale about that.

All this speculation about quyan bloodlines has got me thinking--were the first pupils in the tutelage half-nonmen sons?  The mafia/family analogy extended into human lines?

Quote
All this speculation about quyan bloodlines has got me thinking--were the first pupils in the tutelage half-nonmen sons?  The mafia/family analogy extended into human lines?

I find this less than likely.

This all just blew my mind.

To the top... amazing. Su'juroit is a Nonwoman.

To the bottom and Wilshire's quote, +1 Wilshire but I'm totally about the Mafia Nonmen Quya lines.

I think Bakker did that to just move another battline between Consult vs Foes to be inside of the mansion.  The scenes wouldn't be as cool unless there was indication that the Ordeal Sorweel and co left was also fighting inside the last mansion.

+1
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: MG on March 22, 2014, 08:26:15 pm
It just struck me that I was assuming that intact/erratic division fell exactly across the Consult/Non-Consult division.  We may yet see:

1) Intact/Non-Consult - Perhaps will join the Great Ordeal
2) Intact/Consult - Perhaps can do more awesome sorcery because of their unshattered minds?
3) Erratic/Non-Consult - like Cleric
4) Erratic/Consult - the average nonman in the the Consult?
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Wilshire on March 27, 2014, 12:51:06 pm
Maybe the Intact Quya are the real reason for Kellhus' bid for the Nonmen. They seem like an unknown, and maybe he fears they will be too powerful to overcome.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Aural on May 18, 2014, 03:11:17 pm
I know this is a stupid question and apologies if it has been answered before, but could someone explain the difference between Ishroi and Quya? My understanding is that Ishroi are non-sorcerous Nonmen warriors and Quya are the sorcerers, is that it?
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: MG on May 18, 2014, 03:17:51 pm
I know this is a stupid question and apologies if it has been answered before, but could someone explain the difference between Ishroi and Quya? My understanding is that Ishroi are non-sorcerous Nonmen warriors and Quya are the sorcerers, is that it?

It's not clear to me either!  I think it's kind of a caste thing.  Ishroi are Nonman nobles and Quya are the Ishrois who can do magic?  I think Cleric is described as both.  Quya are the top of the top, I think.  I think Madness has this cool thing about there being a mafia style family running the top of Nonmen organizations and that that group would be the ruling Quya.  Don't remember where it is in TSA!  :P
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Aural on May 19, 2014, 02:59:13 am
Thanks MrG. It could be what you've described I think.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Wilshire on May 19, 2014, 03:06:59 pm
The Nonmen operate under some kind of Caste system. Somewhere near the top are the Ishroi. The Ishroi are described as the warrior-caste, and I suppose this affords them a place of honor in their system.
The Quya are the magi of the Nonman society. I don't think Quya is a caste, more like a title given to those with the power to wield magic. The Quya could be Ishroi or any other caste. For example if a schoolman was also a caste-noble he'd be called a Kijneta Schooman. I think the Nonman would work under the same principle, meaning that you could have a Quya Ishroi, or any variation of Quya [insert class name]. To my knowledge, we only have been told of the Ishroi caste (unless you count Emwama).

A Quya may be an Ishroi as well, but an non-magic Ishroi can never be a Quya.

You were pretty much right though: Ishroi are the non-sorcerous warriors, while Quya wield magic.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: MG on May 27, 2014, 04:30:57 am
I guess someone could be Quya but not Ishroi--maybe the dishonored Aporetic sorcerers are this.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Garet Jax on May 27, 2014, 09:28:05 pm
It has been bothering me why Wutteat would say "CUNNING ISHROI" instead of recognizing him as a Quya. 


It would seem to stand that Wutteat and Nil'giccas have fought each other (or know of each other well enough) several times in the past, and using Ishroi as his title over Quya is a little odd to me.


Any thoughts? Or, am I reading too far into that?
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: MG on May 27, 2014, 10:29:17 pm
I hadn't caught that!  Could be some more Atrocity Tales coming?  Nil'giccas vs Wutteat parts 1, 2, and whatever?
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Wilshire on May 31, 2014, 06:44:14 pm
Maybe it was intended as a personal insult.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: MG on July 03, 2014, 04:10:55 am
The way Wutteat said "cunning" reminded me of the way Kelmomas said it to himself.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: MG on September 05, 2014, 11:25:20 pm
When Kellhus is wandering through the Kyudean mansion, a lot of these things pop up

Quote
"He paused, beld his lantern before a string of naked figures raising spears against a lion, then realized athat another frieze had been carved behind tis first.  Peering through miniature limbs, he saw deeper, more licentious representations, depicting all manner of poses and penetrations." P315 TTT US paperback

"the walls were chiselled large as life but contioned telling the same twofold tale of martial exploit and priapic excess" p 315

"As elsewhere in the mansion, every surface had been rendered with heroic carvings across more pornographic reliefs, though on a far greater scale" p 322

"[the statues around the pool] They squatted in a broad semi-circle facing the pool, their expressions lurid in the orange light." p 323

All this seems to suggest that the nonmen possessed an inchoroi-level sex drive before the Cuno-Inchoroi wars.  Perhaps the two races are even related in the distant past?  That Moenghus waits for Kellhus in such a place would confirm Kellhus' interpretation of his father, that he would eventually become aware of his sins.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Cüréthañ on September 05, 2014, 11:27:35 pm
It has been bothering me why Wutteat would say "CUNNING ISHROI" instead of recognizing him as a Quya. 


It would seem to stand that Wutteat and Nil'giccas have fought each other (or know of each other well enough) several times in the past, and using Ishroi as his title over Quya is a little odd to me.


Any thoughts? Or, am I reading too far into that?

Wutteat is blind.  Nonmen all look very similar (Akka doesn't recognize NG, for example).  Not surprising that the dragon doesn't recognize him to me.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: The Sharmat on September 06, 2014, 01:08:01 am
Why must Kellhus know that the Nonmen have gone over to the Consult? Because he's Kellhus?

When Kellhus is wandering through the Kyudean mansion, a lot of these things pop up

Quote
"He paused, beld his lantern before a string of naked figures raising spears against a lion, then realized athat another frieze had been carved behind tis first.  Peering through miniature limbs, he saw deeper, more licentious representations, depicting all manner of poses and penetrations." P315 TTT US paperback

"the walls were chiselled large as life but contioned telling the same twofold tale of martial exploit and priapic excess" p 315

"As elsewhere in the mansion, every surface had been rendered with heroic carvings across more pornographic reliefs, though on a far greater scale" p 322

"[the statues around the pool] They squatted in a broad semi-circle facing the pool, their expressions lurid in the orange light." p 323

All this seems to suggest that the nonmen possessed an inchoroi-level sex drive before the Cuno-Inchoroi wars.  Perhaps the two races are even related in the distant past?  That Moenghus waits for Kellhus in such a place would confirm Kellhus' interpretation of his father, that he would eventually become aware of his sins.
I believe Akka says in the Judging Eye that the Nonmen didn't start making friezes like that until after the Cuno-Inchoroi wars. The artistic excess of both their subject matter and the complexity of such art is likely an expression of a people desperate both to remember and to find absolutely anything to occupy their time but the knowledge of their race's now pointless and doomed existence.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Triskele on September 07, 2014, 01:51:32 am
Does Wutteat say "CUNNING ISHROI" or "CUNNING CUNOROI?"  I thought it was the latter; just the name of the Nonman race.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: The Sharmat on September 07, 2014, 07:28:30 pm
He says cunning ishroi.

Though in ALL CAPS of course.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Triskele on September 07, 2014, 09:10:49 pm
He says cunning ishroi.

Though in ALL CAPS of course.

LOL, of course, of course. 
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: locke on September 08, 2014, 06:13:05 am
If we're talking about the non men art we shouldn't neglect the wolf gate.

All typ0s courtesy of Samsung.

Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Wic on September 08, 2014, 04:27:57 pm
I look forward to what TUC explains in the sense of the Nonman self, which is clearly different from what man experiences.

They don't distinguish between touching themselves and touching others.
Their art depicts a flow or summation of behaviors - they are never tricked into thinking their present self is the self.

These are radically different perspectives, and it makes their thinking genuinely alien to our own.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: The Sharmat on September 08, 2014, 05:00:08 pm
I look forward to what TUC explains in the sense of the Nonman self, which is clearly different from what man experiences.

They don't distinguish between touching themselves and touching others.
They don't?

Their art depicts a flow or summation of behaviors - they are never tricked into thinking their present self is the self.

These are radically different perspectives, and it makes their thinking genuinely alien to our own.
Is this radically different experience of reality due to them being (most likely) an entirely different species from Homo sapiens, or is it due to the slow derangement that accumulates as a result of their inability to cope with the sheer volume of their own memories? I find it hard to believe most Nonmen could function if their perspectives are anything approaching as erratic as the one in the first Atrocity Tale. But then he was an Erratic. And yet in a way that kind of art seems to represent a tendency not to see things in discrete events separated in time, which is certainly how that particular Cunuroi perceived the world.

And clearly their perceptions are different in some ways...they can't see paintings, evidently, so they have to do friezes and statues.

I just think their alzheimer's like symptoms are going to make judging what is native to their species and what is pathology difficult, if they end up being present in all Nonmen to one degree or another.

And I wonder what it implies of the Quya is Nonman thinking is inherently so alien to Homo sapiens? Is there really all that much overlap between the Quya and the Gnosis? The Nonman mind may be able to make logical leaps in their sorceries that a human would be unable to, and vice versa.

But yeah, if we get characters at Ishterebinth hopefully some of these questions are at least partially answered.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: The Sharmat on September 08, 2014, 06:52:43 pm
How radically different are the physical capabilities of a Cunoroi and a Homo sapiens? Are they much stronger? It seems like I remember getting that impression, but I'm not sure from where.

I ask because I'm trying to come up with a basic hypothesis for Nonman (Let's just call them Homo cunuroi instead of Homo sapiens) evolution. Right now I'm imagining we share a recent common ancestor but that the cunuroi developed a divergent lineage from the sapiens ancestor as a specialized parasite on other hominids (these being the ancestors of the Emwama, the original men of Earwa). But I'm not sure this is strongly supported.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Wic on September 08, 2014, 06:53:19 pm
They don't?
No, can't find it since it's the one I don't have digitally, but in WLW, Cleric asks Mimara something like "Is it true that man experiences touching themselves and the touch of another differently?"  Whether or not that's the exact wording, the implication was very much from a 'different species' perspective, rather than 'Erratic vs. non-Erratic'.

Their art depicts a flow or summation of behaviors - they are never tricked into thinking their present self is the self.

These are radically different perspectives, and it makes their thinking genuinely alien to our own.
Quote
Is this radically different experience of reality due to them being (most likely) an entirely different species from Homo sapiens, or is it due to the slow derangement that accumulates as a result of their inability to cope with the sheer volume of their own memories? I find it hard to believe most Nonmen could function if their perspectives are anything approaching as erratic as the one in the first Atrocity Tale. But then he was an Erratic. And yet in a way that kind of art seems to represent a tendency not to see things in discrete events separated in time, which is certainly how that particular Cunuroi perceived the world.

And clearly their perceptions are different in some ways...they can't see paintings, evidently, so they have to do friezes and statues.

I just think their alzheimer's like symptoms are going to make judging what is native to their species and what is pathology difficult, if they end up being present in all Nonmen to one degree or another.

And I wonder what it implies of the Quya is Nonman thinking is inherently so alien to Homo sapiens? Is there really all that much overlap between the Quya and the Gnosis? The Nonman mind may be able to make logical leaps in their sorceries that a human would be unable to, and vice versa.

But yeah, if we get characters at Ishterebinth hopefully some of these questions are at least partially answered.
In this universe (that is, from Bakker's view), the 'self', and what it means to be a 'self', takes on a strong significance, so I think there's a deliberate creation in the Nonman self - and I think the ultimate crux of the Nonman self is that they don't view themselves as an instant, as  a purely present existence.  They recognize, perhaps only briefly, that what comes before and after is still integral to what defines their selves, and from there it might easily flow into a lack of distinction between other selves.

Maybe Bakker read up on mirror  (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_neuron)neurons and integrated those into the Nonman mind.

Also, I believe Madness said that we will explore a great deal of Nonman culture and mindsets when the story reaches Ishterebinth.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: The Sharmat on September 08, 2014, 07:04:45 pm
No, can't find it since it's the one I don't have digitally, but in WLW, Cleric asks Mimara something like "Is it true that man experiences touching themselves and the touch of another differently?"  Whether or not that's the exact wording, the implication was very much from a 'different species' perspective, rather than 'Erratic vs. non-Erratic'.
Ahhh, I didn't remember or understand what you meant. That is interesting. I wonder what that implies from an evolutionary standpoint?

In this universe (that is, from Bakker's view), the 'self', and what it means to be a 'self', takes on a strong significance, so I think there's a deliberate creation in the Nonman self - and I think the ultimate crux of the Nonman self is that they don't view themselves as an instant, as  a purely present existence.  They recognize, perhaps only briefly, that what comes before and after is still integral to what defines their selves, and from there it might easily flow into a lack of distinction between other selves.

Maybe Bakker read up on mirror  (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_neuron)neurons and integrated those into the Nonman mind.

Also, I believe Madness said that we will explore a great deal of Nonman culture and mindsets when the story reaches Ishterebinth.
So you're implying that Nonmen may experience a far greater degree of empathy than Homo sapiens, at least for each other (human and nonman body language and facial expressions vary significantly from each other which would be a barrier to inter-species empathy)? Hmmm.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Wic on September 08, 2014, 07:09:10 pm
Ah, here it is:
Quote
"Is it true," he inexplicably asks, "that being touched by another and touching oneself are quite distinct sensations for Men?"
[some internal monologue from Mimara]
"I think I once knew this," he finally says.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: The Sharmat on September 08, 2014, 07:37:24 pm
I don't just have my mind in the gutter when I assume he's speaking about masturbation vs. sex, do I? I mean it's not just me, that's what he's talking about?
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: MG on September 09, 2014, 10:53:12 am
I don't just have my mind in the gutter when I assume he's speaking about masturbation vs. sex, do I? I mean it's not just me, that's what he's talking about?




its what i thought too
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Garet Jax on September 10, 2014, 03:09:27 pm
I don't just have my mind in the gutter when I assume he's speaking about masturbation vs. sex, do I? I mean it's not just me, that's what he's talking about?

I thought the same thing and also think that is how Mimara understands it.

But with Nonmen being so off the charts and bat shit crazy so far, I wouldn't discount that he means something that "homo sapiens" can't comprehend.  Maybe they experience everything from a 3rd person/ out of body POV and literally couldn't feel a different sensation between the two physical interactions?
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: The Sharmat on September 10, 2014, 04:26:07 pm
That condition can kinda be artificially induced in humans so I suppose it's possible. I have no idea what kind of implications that would have for their society and evolutionary history.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: MG on September 11, 2014, 03:31:43 am
NSFW - perhaps the nonmen enjoy...

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Dutch%20Rudder

or

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=the%20stranger
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: The Sharmat on September 11, 2014, 08:55:01 pm
I don't think "The Stranger" would work for them.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Wilshire on September 12, 2014, 02:33:00 pm
I don't just have my mind in the gutter when I assume he's speaking about masturbation vs. sex, do I? I mean it's not just me, that's what he's talking about?
I think that is the obvious conclusion. What other applications might that have? Imagine pain, rather than pleasure. How could you fight a war, or kill other Nonmen, if being hurt/stabbed/killed by another felt the same as though you did it to yourself? I have no idea...
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Wic on September 12, 2014, 09:34:27 pm
But what if you had that backwards?  That is, it's not that stabbing someone else is like stabbing yourself, but that stabbing yourself is like stabbing another?
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Wilshire on September 13, 2014, 08:51:51 pm
I honestly don't see how that would make much of a difference. Either way, inflicting pain on yourself is not something that is easy to do for most people.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: MG on September 29, 2014, 12:17:50 am
This is probably wrong, but it seems like suicide is not a problem for the nonmen.  I wonder why?  Still wary of damnation even into erraticism?
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Francis Buck on September 29, 2014, 05:16:20 am
I honestly never thought about the masturbation vs sex angle until now, I always interpreted it as some kind of strange psychological difference between humans and Nonmen, like not being able to see paintings. Admittedly it never made much sense to me, for reasons Wilshire has already elaborated on.

However now seeing the masturbation vs sex angle, I totally believe that. It makes way more sense and also serves as a way of establishing just how distant/lonely/crazy the Erratics are.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Wilshire on September 29, 2014, 04:37:44 pm
Actually I was thinking that it leads to more intimacy, but I think that really depends how the two sensations. If sex is the same as masturbation, then its a lonely existence, but if its reverse, the everything would be so intimate for the Nonmen.

I wonder how this affected rape though their own history, and if the sensation extends beyond themselves. I.e raping an Emwama or even just slaughtering a cow. Cutting down a tree? Difference between things with/without souls? Where does the line get drawn. Where does the "self-ness" end?
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: dragharrow on November 05, 2014, 10:27:50 pm
Quote from: wic
But what if you had that backwards?  That is, it's not that stabbing someone else is like stabbing yourself, but that stabbing yourself is like stabbing another?
Quote from: Wilshire
I honestly don't see how that would make much of a difference. Either way, inflicting pain on yourself is not something that is easy to do for most people.

It makes all the difference
I don't think that either of these cases is actually accurate but I think its a cool thought experiment.

The vast majority of people find it is extremely difficult to seriously harm themselves. There is a strong psychological barrier against it. Most people have a hard time even making a small cut in their skin. And then if a person succeeds in injuring themselves there's pain.

The first case is that harming another is like harming oneself. These nonmen would feel a compulsion not to injure other nonmen. If they did, they would experience the pain of the injury themselves.

The second case is that harming yourself is like harming another. These nonmen could cut their own flesh and remain mostly remote from the experience. They would rarely have a reason to do this but when they did it would be easy. But if one was injured and the limb needed to be amputated, he would be capable of sawing through the arm without fighting his self-preservation instincts or even feeling pain.

Cool thought Wic. I like this. It makes you look at the not differentiating between your own touch and the touch of another trait from the right perspective.

In fact, the second possibility but with touch instead of pain seems fits well with the nonmen for me. They are more remote creatures than us. They experience of the world isn't as emotionally immediate as ours is. It's background for us but we have this constant flow of emotion and sensation associating us with our bodies. I can easily imagine the nonmen not having that.

Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Wilshire on November 07, 2014, 01:10:33 am
Thanks for explaining that. Makes a lot of sense now, and as you said, the second seems to fit the nonman personae that we are given.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: dragharrow on November 07, 2014, 02:14:15 am
Np :) . It almost does seem like it could work with pain, at least on some level. What with the fact that they don't have the psychological compulsion to not commit suicide that humans do. Like cleric says, for nonmen continuing to live is always a choice.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Wilshire on November 10, 2014, 08:03:40 pm
Who knows how functioning 10,000x longer than you're brain was supposed would do to you psyche.  Even if they were, at some point, less "alien", they certainly have diverged greatly by now.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: dragharrow on November 10, 2014, 11:08:24 pm
Yeah, it's difficult to separate the two. Personally I find them more interesting if many of their more alien traits are innate and not a result of the womb plague. I lean towards this weird form of agnosia and their remote mood both being innate.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Wilshire on November 11, 2014, 04:11:24 am
Oh, just read through the last few pages, and realized that some of you had already discussed just that. Without a history of some kind, it will likely be nearly impossible to distinguish pre-Inchoroi behavior/traits to current traits.

Maybe there has been a cabal of historians in Ishterebinth all these years, writing down history for centuries.

What would make it impossible for them to see paintings? Can they read writing, then? I can't think of any reason why anything with sight wouldn't be able to "see" paintings.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: dragharrow on November 11, 2014, 06:28:24 am
Paintings are geared towards our specific anatomy. They rely on color and contrast and a certain scheme of stylization that works for us. If memory serves, humans have very powerful but specialized sense of sight. So if you were to stack us up against other animals we have superior sight to pretty much anything in the narrow domain of light that we specialized in. I have no problem imagining that nonmen just can't  process painting the way we can. Someone earlier drew a comparison to dogs not being able to really process television.

We can't decode the information in a dogs urine scent markings. I feel like its the same thing.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Simas Polchias on November 11, 2014, 02:32:39 pm
What would make it impossible for them to see paintings? Can they read writing, then? I can't think of any reason why anything with sight wouldn't be able to "see" paintings.
As far as I remember, percieving a flat illusion of a volume is a trainable skill, it's not inherent even to the people. Where most of current human population get this through early childhood (along with zero language, walking and other base stuff for a tiny drunk adult), there were tribes of primitive people found only in 20th century who lived with a very scarce material culture. That certain circumstance prevent them from both creating such illusions and training in recognising them. It seems a window of opportunity here is quite wide, because even adults developed that skill with a help of a pictures brought with explorers.

And we know cunuroi & halaroi have some deep diffirence in perception. Like, cunuroi look exact the same to halaroi, but manage to differentiate between themselves with no problem. I hope that wasn't a "all europeans look the same to asian et vice versa"-joke thrown in by Bakker. Though it would make a damn good dark humour in context of nonmen memory difficulties.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Wilshire on November 11, 2014, 02:59:53 pm
Ah, well I'm glad to have that explained. Makes a lot of sense. Its easy to forget things that happen so naturally at this point. So basically, seeing 3D illusions on flat paper is a trained reflex. Couple that with differences in color perception and processing, and its not a tough leap to not being able to see a painting.

Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Francis Buck on November 14, 2014, 08:25:09 pm
What would make it impossible for them to see paintings? Can they read writing, then? I can't think of any reason why anything with sight wouldn't be able to "see" paintings.
As far as I remember, percieving a flat illusion of a volume is a trainable skill, it's not inherent even to the people. Where most of current human population get this through early childhood (along with zero language, walking and other base stuff for a tiny drunk adult), there were tribes of primitive people found only in 20th century who lived with a very scarce material culture. That certain circumstance prevent them from both creating such illusions and training in recognising them. It seems a window of opportunity here is quite wide, because even adults developed that skill with a help of a pictures brought with explorers.

And we know cunuroi & halaroi have some deep diffirence in perception. Like, cunuroi look exact the same to halaroi, but manage to differentiate between themselves with no problem. I hope that wasn't a "all europeans look the same to asian et vice versa"-joke thrown in by Bakker. Though it would make a damn good dark humour in context of nonmen memory difficulties.

It's funny, I actually remember hearing that thing about the real-world tribesmen when I was relatively young. Some kid told me about it at school, and then the teacher told me it wasn't true lol. It stuck in my mind regardless though because it was the first thing that came to mind when I read that line about Nonmen not being able to see paintings though, and it made me check up on the topic later.

As for that second point, I actually did interpret it as "people of the same race looking similar to the untrained eye" type of deal, although extended to species. In the same that, for example, my two dogs of the same breed look very different to me, but to someone who is unfamiliar with them, they have trouble telling them apart. It kinda makes sense that to most people, Nonmen would look pretty similar, particularly with the lack of hair.

Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Wilshire on November 14, 2014, 08:34:43 pm
I've heard that used to describe plenty races of people, black, white, hispanic, asian, and indian are one's that I have personally heard people say "they all look the same". And we're all the same species.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Alia on November 16, 2014, 01:18:41 pm
There was this anecdote about one of film versions of "Madame Butterfly" - that when it was shown in Japan, at one point viewers suddenly started laughing, which was suprising, as the film is rather said. As it turns out, the role of the protagonists' son was played by two Japanese children. Which to white audiences looked exactly the same, but not to the Japanese.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Wilshire on November 16, 2014, 04:15:29 pm
Haha that is awesome.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: MG on November 16, 2014, 07:46:34 pm
There was this anecdote about one of film versions of "Madame Butterfly" - that when it was shown in Japan, at one point viewers suddenly started laughing, which was suprising, as the film is rather said. As it turns out, the role of the protagonists' son was played by two Japanese children. Which to white audiences looked exactly the same, but not to the Japanese.

wow! have to use this in class!
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Simas Polchias on November 20, 2014, 03:19:22 pm
It kinda makes sense that to most people, Nonmen would look pretty similar, particularly with the lack of hair.
Actually I've supposed their lack of hair, perfect skin, awesome build and lifespan to be byproducts of grafting made by Ihcnoroi. Like, they are all the same perfect Nonman now, all have the most powerful combination of genes possible for their specie, so there literally is no more place for diversity in their personal biology.

Blame these dudes mostly, lol.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Wilshire on November 20, 2014, 03:50:41 pm
I immediately thought "nonman" when those things first showed up on screen.

Lifespan, yes, not sure about the rest though.
The Sranc were fashioned after the Nonmen, and have many similar features. Noteworthy, perhaps, that the sranc have hair to scalp, while the nonmen do not.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Garet Jax on November 20, 2014, 04:15:08 pm
I could be mistaken, but I thought they were literally taking scalps instead of hair when "scalping"?


No books at the office to check...
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Somnambulist on November 20, 2014, 06:30:23 pm
Agreed with GJ, one of the books state that sranc scalps are distinct simply because they have no hair, and thus could never be confused with human scalps.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Wilshire on November 20, 2014, 07:24:19 pm
I thought the did the scalp because it was the only thing with hair they could bring back, so separating them from other animals.

I also recall that the Stonehags hunted men as well because human scalps were indistinguishable from sranc.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: dragharrow on November 20, 2014, 07:32:55 pm
I could be totally wrong but I think the stonehags hunted other scalpoi to steal the scalps that they had already collected
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Somnambulist on November 20, 2014, 08:02:46 pm
I could be totally wrong but I think the stonehags hunted other scalpoi to steal the scalps that they had already collected

this
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Wilshire on November 20, 2014, 10:02:28 pm
Huh. Then I totally misread all of that. I feel like I need to reevaluate my life.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Francis Buck on November 22, 2014, 03:13:21 am
I interpreted the Nonman's morphology as being a product of their subterranean lifestyle. Pale skin, hairless, black eyes, etc.

As to why they're all so beautiful and statuesque and all, I just think it's kind of a necessary literary affectation in order to make them more like Tolkien's elves.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Simas Polchias on November 28, 2014, 09:20:10 pm
to make them more like Tolkien's elves
... and now I can't help but compare dunyain & mangaecca with numenorians.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Inshallabel on December 11, 2014, 05:17:22 am
(http://www.lqs-art.com/upfile/20133191435153217425.jpg)

A few questions about Nonmen {initially posed at westeros.org but received few contemplations in return}...

Do we know anything about the evolution of the Nonmen?

The Dunyain's Principle of Before and After is used by Kellhus to see through the veneer of human modernity, into the roots of their emotion and expression, into the bestial past of human behavior.  But we never really see Nonmen subjected to the same intensity of scrutiny {i.e., Kellhus peering through the Nonmen and into a potentially bestial precursor species they may have evolved from}. 
Did Men and Nonmen share a common ancestor, with Nonmen representing the absolute peak of artificial selection and genetic refinement?  Or are Nonmen artificially designed in someway?  Or are their superficial similarities to Men largely incidental somehow?

Also, does anybody have any theories about the inhabitants of the other planets throughout the Universe that were visited by the Inchoroi?  Were Men and Nonmen a common occurrence throughout the stars at some point in time preceding the events of TSA?  Or is it more likely that Earwa is their actual home?

The Nonmen seem to have always had an affectation for Oblivion... does this mean that they had some presentiment that they were always Damned?  Even before their war with the Inchoroi / Nasamorgas and condemnation by the Eannean Men?  Due to their treatment of the Emwama, or something even more fundamental than that?

Do the Nonmen see in color, similar to Humans?  Or is their vision largely muted, or entirely monochrome?  {I don't think the books ever stated this specifically, but I kind of get that impression from them}.

Kellhus, observing the Nonmen ruins in Kyudea, notes that their obsession with the living form points to their terror.  What is this terror?  Existential terror at the state of being alive, of being encased in mortal, breathing flesh?  Terror of the possibility or certainty of damnation?

Also: Kellhus says the Kyudean Nonman Ruins remind him of Ishual's Thousand Thousand Halls...  I wonder if this is again just coincidence or if the Dunyain have some connection with the Nonmen in founding the basic tenets of their philosophy before dredging the Thousand Thousand Halls {do we know if the Dunyain built them, or if they were present in Ishual before their arrival?}.

Ishroi Warriors, Quya Mages, Judges of the Ishroi, Nonmen Kings and Queens, I am wondering why they settled into a hierarchical monarchy-type structure.  Were there ever any Democratic mansions?  Or are their forms of government largely uniform across the Mansions {it seems this way, they all seem very homogeneous} and somehow hardwired into their neurology?

'Pologies for the lengthy post, Nonmen are incredibly interesting to me and I would love to see Bakker do a Silmarillion-type novel {after completion of TSA's trilogy of trilogies} recounting the origins of the Nonmen and the Cuno-Inchoroi Wars in more detail.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Wilshire on December 11, 2014, 01:47:47 pm
I think this post is complex enough to warrent its own topic, but there is nothing wrong with putting it here.

Welcome,  Inshallabel, to the Second Apocalypse. What a great first post. Lets hope some people come around and answer some of your questions.

I'll certainly gret back here later today/tonight.



I'll just start here since I have a second, and because its an easy one :P

Do we know anything about the evolution of the Nonmen?

As far as I know, we have little insight into the tens of thousands of years of Nonman history before the breaking of the gates. There might be a few phrases hidden in Four Revelations, but thats about it. 
Without any, or many, hard facts, all that is left is to speculate. Huzzah.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Wilshire on December 11, 2014, 06:11:29 pm
The Dunyain's Principle of Before and After is used by Kellhus to see through the veneer of human modernity, into the roots of their emotion and expression, into the bestial past of human behavior.  But we never really see Nonmen subjected to the same intensity of scrutiny {i.e., Kellhus peering through the Nonmen and into a potentially bestial precursor species they may have evolved from}. 
I think this has purposefully hidden from us. Too many answers, I think, if a dunyain such as Kellhus looked into the faces/souls of Nonmen and told us what he say. The idea of the Darkness that Comes Before affecting all things is very central, and the nonman preceded the men of Eanna more completely than anything else.

Did Men and Nonmen share a common ancestor, with Nonmen representing the absolute peak of artificial selection and genetic refinement?  Or are Nonmen artificially designed in someway?  Or are their superficial similarities to Men largely incidental somehow?
Not sure I understand where these questions are coming from. How would you answer these?
I'd say it wouldn't be too terribly unlikely that two unrelated species evolved similarly. Fish and dolphins, for example. Personally, I hope there is some kind of not too distant link between them (go back far enough and everything has a common ancestor. I'd prefer a somewhat more recent ancestor )

Also, does anybody have any theories about the inhabitants of the other planets throughout the Universe that were visited by the Inchoroi?  Were Men and Nonmen a common occurrence throughout the stars at some point in time preceding the events of TSA?  Or is it more likely that Earwa is their actual home?
I prefer my aliens to be alien.  I'd be extremely surprised if the humaniod form was dominant on other planets, in the Earwaverse or IRL.

The Nonmen seem to have always had an affectation for Oblivion... does this mean that they had some presentiment that they were always Damned?  Even before their war with the Inchoroi / Nasamorgas and condemnation by the Eannean Men?  Due to their treatment of the Emwama, or something even more fundamental than that?
"Seem to". I think this notion comes from the fact that our view of Nonmen comes from the men who came in after they where already defeated. I think the young nonmen of eons past worshiped Gods i a manner similar to men.

Do the Nonmen see in color, similar to Humans?  Or is their vision largely muted, or entirely monochrome?  {I don't think the books ever stated this specifically, but I kind of get that impression from them}.
Its mentioned in the books that Nonmen cannot see paintings, which is why they only do carvings. Take from that what you will.

Kellhus, observing the Nonmen ruins in Kyudea, notes that their obsession with the living form points to their terror.  What is this terror?  Existential terror at the state of being alive, of being encased in mortal, breathing flesh?  Terror of the possibility or certainty of damnation?
I'd have to look up this part and read it again to answer this. Or you could provide a quote and/or reference so I can be as lazy as possible ;)

Also: Kellhus says the Kyudean Nonman Ruins remind him of Ishual's Thousand Thousand Halls...  I wonder if this is again just coincidence or if the Dunyain have some connection with the Nonmen in founding the basic tenets of their philosophy before dredging the Thousand Thousand Halls {do we know if the Dunyain built them, or if they were present in Ishual before their arrival?}.
Seems too coincidental to me. I think there is a connection.
As for their origin, I think there is mention of their existence and/or creation at some point in the books, but I can't remember exactly what. I also think this has been brought up somewhere on the forum. You might try the search function is no one comes up with a better response.

Ishroi Warriors, Quya Mages, Judges of the Ishroi, Nonmen Kings and Queens, I am wondering why they settled into a hierarchical monarchy-type structure.  Were there ever any Democratic mansions?  Or are their forms of government largely uniform across the Mansions {it seems this way, they all seem very homogeneous} and somehow hardwired into their neurology?
I get the monarachy-type feeling as well, but I don't think there is actual reference to it. Only ever heard of Nonmen Kings, not Presidents, though this could just be that the men of Earwa, or the nonmen themselves, lack the words/translation to describe a democratic society.

'Pologies for the lengthy post, Nonmen are incredibly interesting to me and I would love to see Bakker do a Silmarillion-type novel {after completion of TSA's trilogy of trilogies} recounting the origins of the Nonmen and the Cuno-Inchoroi Wars in more detail.
No apologies necessary. More is always better :)

I hope there are many books to come after TSA as originally envisioned comes to a close. I'm certain, in fact, that there will be more, though if he stops writing full-time, we might never see a full length novel ever published. There is certainly enough within within the current lore for many a story to be told.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Inshallabel on December 12, 2014, 09:11:48 am
I think this has purposefully hidden from us. Too many answers, I think, if a dunyain such as Kellhus looked into the faces/souls of Nonmen and told us what he say. The idea of the Darkness that Comes Before affecting all things is very central, and the nonman preceded the men of Eanna more completely than anything else.

The Nonmen preceding the Eannean Men does not necessarily mean that they themselves would not be just as susceptible to the Principles of Causality and the vagaries of history and evolution, though {even though they claim they can decide to leave at any time}.  Anyone as adept as Kellhus at peering into the Darkness would likely be able to peer into the Darkness that precedes the Nonmen, it would just be a slightly more strenuous effort perhaps {lacking a Nonman equivalent to the Unmasking Room in the Ishual and other things}.  But this doesn't mean such Sight would be impossible.
The "What Came Before" segments in the books always mention Nonmen having reached a pinnacle of civilization while men roamed the wilds wielding stone tools and dressing in furs.  But any cultural zenith implies a gradual / historical development from preceding eras.  The institutions / relationships of Kings and Ishroi and Quya mages must have their roots somewhere before the apogee of Nonman Civilization, just as much as the caste-system and jnan must have roots before the height of Three Seas Civilization...
Even though the Nonmen could have witnessed the evolution of Men from Beasts throughout the ages, this doesn't mean that they are any less subject to the Principle of Before and After... i.e., the "modern Nonmen" of the Cuno-Inchoroi Wars must have been built upon preceding generations of Nonmen back into the depths of history...
It does not make sense for Nonmen to simply incarnate, or appear, at the summit of their civilizational development.  Unless they did not, in fact, ever evolve and are artificial in some sense.
In short: Nonmen and Nonmen Society must be derived from something that Came Before, due to the Causality Principle.  If not, this has wide reaching implications for the Causality Principle and Earwa as a whole.  Although it seems that the Nonmen are as oblivious to their ultimate origin as humans are to theirs.

Quote
Not sure I understand where these questions are coming from. How would you answer these?
I'd say it wouldn't be too terribly unlikely that two unrelated species evolved similarly. Fish and dolphins, for example. Personally, I hope there is some kind of not too distant link between them (go back far enough and everything has a common ancestor. I'd prefer a somewhat more recent ancestor )
The questions, they come from the darkness...  :D
But yeah, there may be indications in the text that we've overlooked that Nonmen could be evolved from a more bestial ancestor...  This ancestor could be a close relative to the ancestor of Men or something else entirely {in which case their superficial similarities to Men would be incidental, as opposed to ancestral}. 
Think of it this way... could be a species of proto-ape from which Nonmen and Men both branched off and evolved from.  Or Men could be derived from an ape-ancestral with Nonmen somehow being evolved from a hairless, subterranean creature.  I know that's probably a stretch but it does throw the difference between the species in a new light.
But if neither is the case, then it would seem to indicate that the Nonmen had somehow been engineered or designed instead of evolved...
Which would, of course, really change the scope of the setting and the relationships between the races / gods.

Quote
I prefer my aliens to be alien.  I'd be extremely surprised if the humaniod form was dominant on other planets, in the Earwaverse or IRL.
The Humanoid form appears to have cropped up at least twice in two separate examples on Earwa, Men and Nonmen...

Quote
"Seem to". I think this notion comes from the fact that our view of Nonmen comes from the men who came in after they where already defeated. I think the young nonmen of eons past worshiped Gods i a manner similar to men.
Good point.

Quote
Its mentioned in the books that Nonmen cannot see paintings, which is why they only do carvings. Take from that what you will.
I feel like their colors are largely muted or near-grayscale, with perhaps some exceptions with bronze or copper {the Copper Tree of Siol, etc.}.  Color has significant implications for language and communication though, at least for Men.  So for Nonmen their muted world's characteristics would have to be read in entirely alien ways.... i.e.. a mineral would not reveal itself to be copper or bronze just by noting its color, they would have to deduce its mineral properties in some other fashion.

Quote
I'd have to look up this part and read it again to answer this. Or you could provide a quote and/or reference so I can be as lazy as possible ;)
Quote from: R. Scott Bakker
Upraised palms braced his every step.  Blank eyes studied his every angle.  The Nonmen who had authored this place possessed more than a fascination with the living form; it had been their obsession.  Everywhere, they had cut their image into the dead stone about them, transforming the suffocating weights that hemmed them in into extensions of themselves.  And Kellhus realized: the mansion itself had been their devotional work--their Temple.  Unlike Men, these Nonmen had not rationed their worship.  They did not distinguish between prayer and speech, idol and statue ...
Which spoke to their terror.
{TTT, p. 316-317, RSB}
Bakker's emphasis in italics, mine in bold.
The Nonmen do not sequester religion / worship into a certain societal niche, all of their activities are religious / worshipful in nature.  They are obsessed with the living form, beyond mere fascination, and this indicates their terror....  But terror of what?  Terror of being flesh and blood?  Or terror of the living form's connection with the Outside, and the potential of Damnation?
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Wilshire on December 12, 2014, 03:19:31 pm
Kellhus would have to fashion his own Room of Faces to fully decifer the nonmen. I'm sure he's disected at least 1.

Quote
In short: Nonmen and Nonmen Society must be derived from something that Came Before, due to the Causality Principle.  If not, this has wide reaching implications for the Causality Principle and Earwa as a whole.  Although it seems that the Nonmen are as oblivious to their ultimate origin as humans are to theirs.
Completely agree. The lost history of Nonmen spans far more years than all the recorded history of Men. Their darkness is far deeper. Nonmen may not have appeared as children to the Dunyain, had the remained sane.

Quote
The Humanoid form appears to have cropped up at least twice in two separate examples on Earwa, Men and Nonmen...
The difference though, is that both evolved on Earwa, which has supplied all its species with a very similar set of evolutionary pressures. I would just be terribly surprised if those pressures were so similar on an entirely different solar system to create the humanoid form. Also, consider in the case of Earwa, it has only occured twice, while there are far more numerous kinds of bugs, birds, and fish

At the end here, I think we are agreeing. Mole -> human and ape -> human would be just as possible as both from apes.

As per a more artificial selection/creation mechanism, that would be an intersting twist. Adding some sci-fi into the story, which I think we will see more of as we get closer to the Inchoroi.


Living Form:
Intersting passage. I think, for one thing, what was once a passion and religion became an obsession post-immortality.

"the living form" I always thought refered to not simply to flesh and blood, but life in motion. Their multi-pose statues/carvings reflect this.

As to why all of that would show their terror, I don't know. It could again have be forged after they become immortal. After living so long and with their memories fading, maybe they forgot why/how to worship, so they became obsessed with what facets of their society remaind to them. Terror of losing more of their heritage, and terror of become like the silent stone, of eternal existing in a single form.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: locke on December 15, 2014, 08:24:02 am
Terror not at being statues but being the spaces between the statues, the carved away bits of nothingness

We silly humans think they were sculpting themselves. nope they were sculpting the spaces between themselves, fashioning an idol of the nothingness they worshipped.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Aural on December 15, 2014, 10:54:19 pm
Quote
A few questions about Nonmen {initially posed at westeros.org but received few contemplations in return}...

Yep, you’re a lot more likely to get accused of being a Bakker alt than any real discussion over there. Which is what happened. Not that what I said is any more useful.  :P
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Wilshire on December 15, 2014, 11:43:47 pm
Quote
A few questions about Nonmen {initially posed at westeros.org but received few contemplations in return}...

Yep, you’re a lot more likely to get accused of being a Bakker alt than any real discussion over there. Which is what happened. Not that what I said is any more useful.  :P

;) you could always take a shot at one of the questions
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Ciogli on December 16, 2014, 04:03:05 am
to make them more like Tolkien's elves


... and now I can't help but compare dunyain & mangaecca with numenorians.

I think the Numenorians and the Nonmen are a better analog.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: The Great Scald on December 17, 2014, 01:05:54 pm
In short: Nonmen and Nonmen Society must be derived from something that Came Before, due to the Causality Principle.  If not, this has wide reaching implications for the Causality Principle and Earwa as a whole.  Although it seems that the Nonmen are as oblivious to their ultimate origin as humans are to theirs.

If I remember the appendix right, the Nonmen's endonym means "People of Dawn" or something like that, but that they've long since forgotten what their own endonym refers to. So, yeah, their own history is a question mark even to themselves.

Quote
Personally, I hope there is some kind of not too distant link between them (go back far enough and everything has a common ancestor. I'd prefer a somewhat more recent ancestor )

Nonmen and Men don't need to be closely related, or even have any shared ancestors more recent than primordial slime. They could be a close relative of Men, and that's more biologically realistic, but they could be something else entirely. Convergent evolution has produced a lot of creatures that look similar and fill similar functions, but are from completely different species. The similar looks of dolphins (mammals) and marine dinosaurs (reptiles) is probably the most famous case:

(http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/files/2013/11/convergent_evo.jpg)

Quote
I feel like their colors are largely muted or near-grayscale, with perhaps some exceptions with bronze or copper {the Copper Tree of Siol, etc.}.  Color has significant implications for language and communication though, at least for Men.  So for Nonmen their muted world's characteristics would have to be read in entirely alien ways....

Or maybe their colors are just invisible to the human eye. Maybe they can see in the infrared spectrum, or on other planes that we can't perceive. It's possible that the big Nonman Mansions in their glory days were full of art and color, but would just look colorless and grim to us. 

The screenwriter of the Ridley Scott movie "Prometheus", when talking about the god-aliens (who, as many posters have noted, look very much like Bakker's Nonmen), describes their culture like this:

Quote
Their civilisation is millions of years old. Once, the Engineers expressed themselves as humans do - taking pleasure in music, colours and story - but they’re able to see in more dimensions than we do. Their art and ornament exist on planes imperceptible to human senses. Their constructions look dark and grim to us; but the Engineers’ eyes see far more than our own. The individual Engineers live for a hundred thousand years. Aeons ago, their race abandoned sex and gender, reproducing by more abstract methods. In recent millennia they have ceased to reproduce altogether.
~ Jon Spaihts, “Alien Master Narrative”, script notes.

https://alienseries.wordpress.com/2013/07/21/gods-monsters/ (https://alienseries.wordpress.com/2013/07/21/gods-monsters/)

Quote
The Nonmen do not sequester religion / worship into a certain societal niche, all of their activities are religious / worshipful in nature.  They are obsessed with the living form, beyond mere fascination, and this indicates their terror....  But terror of what?  Terror of being flesh and blood?  Or terror of the living form's connection with the Outside, and the potential of Damnation?

I dunno. Maybe they had an existential terror, or fell into pessimism like Nietzsche thought the Greeks did - they were already a really old and exhausted civilization by that point. Pretty likely that their "terror", and obsession with the void, was because of the Outside and their own damnation after death.

Or it could just be their terror of forgetting and being forgotten. Akka talks a lot about the statues in Cil-Aujas, and how the ancient Nonman art is a lot more dynamic and simple, while the later stuff is so detailed it's almost photographic. His point is that the Nonmen went insane as a culture and tried to record every little detail in their art, down to the smallest cracks on people's toenails, since they'd forget it otherwise.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Wilshire on December 17, 2014, 01:46:25 pm
Convergent evolution, that's the term I was looking for, and yeah I guess its irrelevant when/what the common ancestor is.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: MG on December 18, 2014, 10:16:40 am
i wonder if there are genre limitations for combining evolution and high fantasy?  i don't remember ever reading fantasy that included evolution except for something by Pratchett.  does fantasy and epic/high fantasy in particular mandate a non-evolutionary origin in order to resonate with the readership?
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: MG on December 23, 2014, 05:36:47 am
Welcome to the forum Inshallabel!
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Wilshire on December 23, 2014, 04:41:18 pm
i wonder if there are genre limitations for combining evolution and high fantasy?  i don't remember ever reading fantasy that included evolution except for something by Pratchett.  does fantasy and epic/high fantasy in particular mandate a non-evolutionary origin in order to resonate with the readership?

Evolution falls into a similar category as gene-manipulation, and as such is a subject that is more akin to sci-fi. I'm not sure authors feel like one belongs in the other? But, imo, its a thin line anyway.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: MSJ on December 27, 2014, 01:52:03 am
Malazan had little touch here and there about evolution. I mean, the subject wasn't delved into extensively, but there was mention of the E'sra (sp?), who was there in the dreams or warrens or what the hell ever! I'm confused now! Longest read I've ever done.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: MG on December 31, 2014, 08:48:10 pm
i wonder if there are genre limitations for combining evolution and high fantasy?  i don't remember ever reading fantasy that included evolution except for something by Pratchett.  does fantasy and epic/high fantasy in particular mandate a non-evolutionary origin in order to resonate with the readership?

Evolution falls into a similar category as gene-manipulation, and as such is a subject that is more akin to sci-fi. I'm not sure authors feel like one belongs in the other? But, imo, its a thin line anyway.

i can't think of evolution happening in a fantasy story, and i don't think it would work for me.  i would prefer Genesis or a big ole' unexplained black hole of knowledge where evolution could have occured but there are no authoritative texts about it

i guess i prefer a Genesis account because it would mean that inside the world, everything has it's place, because everything is ultimately anchored to a meaningful beginning (maybe not 'meaningful' in a nice way).  in an evolutionary setting, the ultimate origin of everything hinges on coincidences.  we get bipedals on earth, maybe tripedals on some other planet.  i think good fiction works because the author creates a story that is unlike the random reality we live in.  that is, even the random things that happen in the story still mean something towards the final trajectory of the characters and stuff. idk wut
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Wilshire on December 31, 2014, 09:26:34 pm
That's a fair opinion/assessment, but I still think it can fit just as well as anything else if the author writes it down. The genesis is the writing of the story ;)
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Inshallabel on January 02, 2015, 05:29:58 am
i can't think of evolution happening in a fantasy story, and i don't think it would work for me.  i would prefer Genesis or a big ole' unexplained black hole of knowledge where evolution could have occured but there are no authoritative texts about it
Genesis isn't an "unexplained black hole of knowledge".
It constructs the Universe in a very ordered, rational way {for the audiences of the time}.
Similar to the way we do today.
It merely places "God" as the Ultimate Source of events as opposed to "the Singularity" which is as close as Physicists seem to be able to come to a "beginning".

Quote
i guess i prefer a Genesis account because it would mean that inside the world, everything has it's place, because everything is ultimately anchored to a meaningful beginning (maybe not 'meaningful' in a nice way). 
But this is one of the questions being posed by The Second-Apocalypse Saga, isn't it? 
Whether or not anything is inherently "meaningful" or if "meaning" is ultimately just an heuristic utilized by a series of phenomena which could ultimately be material and without "meaning" in the traditional sense? 
Also, how does a non-Biblical account of our Origins counteract the idea that Everything has it's Place? 
In a non-Biblical view, everything is just the grand-baby of protozoan bacteria using DNA, inching its way through the world and into geographical environs that gradually sculpt its descendants into divergent species...  Every species on Earth quite literally has its place, has been filling its Place for millennia, and continues to do so.

Quote
in an evolutionary setting, the ultimate origin of everything hinges on coincidences. 
Not really.  Evolution does not concern itself with the Ultimate Origin of Existence.
It is merely a tool for observing the processes by which different Species came into existence. 

Quote
we get bipedals on earth, maybe tripedals on some other planet.
Yes but there would be geographical reasons for the development of bipedals, tripedals, and quadripedals.  Variables and factors that generate organisms that precede and encompass their existence.  And each of these creatures on each of these planets would literally have been evolving for millennia to fill their "place" in an optimal way.

Quote
i think good fiction works because the author creates a story that is unlike the random reality we live in.  that is, even the random things that happen in the story still mean something towards the final trajectory of the characters and stuff. idk wut

Assuming that the reality we live in is "random" is a large assumption based on no evidence whatsoever.

All that being said, Bakker's world is one wherein the principles of Science, Evolution, and Technology seem to have some discernible influence...
i.e., the Inchoroi, the Consult, and the Tekne. 
{as opposed to Morgoth and Sauron from Tolkien's mythos}.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Wilshire on January 02, 2015, 02:42:29 pm
Quote
i guess i prefer a Genesis account because it would mean that inside the world, everything has it's place, because everything is ultimately anchored to a meaningful beginning (maybe not 'meaningful' in a nice way). 
But this is one of the questions being posed by The Second-Apocalypse Saga, isn't it? 
Whether or not anything is inherently "meaningful" or if "meaning" is ultimately just an heuristic utilized by a series of phenomena which could ultimately be material and without "meaning" in the traditional sense? 
Absolutely agree. The idea that there is some kind of objective meaning to the Earwaverse, and where it came from if there is (from what darkness...), is central to the entire series.

As for the rest, I think you extrapolated a bit on MG's post, both in tone and substance, and somewhat missed the mark.

Evolution and/or non-religious genesis seems pretty much like coincidence to me. From the very start, coincidence that singularity or whatever blew up and made all the things.

Fast forward to the set of circumstances that created our planet. Right distance from sun, right number of comets depositing water on the surface after it cooled, Jupiter to shield us from most asteroids.

Then life,  primordial soup with enough organic material to spontaneously form amino acids, single cells forming, single-cells evolving into everything.

I'm sure that if you look at it all as a whole, its a giant chaotic system, which to me is the scientific equivalent of coincidence. If this rock didn't hit that boulder 5 billion years ago, the earth never existed.

I think his idea was that in the context of fantasy/fiction writing, it would be more meaningful to have something more ... well more meaningful than that described above. Though, as you pointed out, that in itself is a matter of opinion, since there are clearly those that feel that there is plenty if meaningfulness in the Universe without any kind of divine intervention whatsoever. Given that meaning is a central question to this story, I'm not sure which way it will turn out.

Assuming that the reality we live in is "random" is a large assumption based on no evidence whatsoever.
If you're looking to debate scientific semantics, check out the Science subforums, theres a lot of good stuff there (and potentially a few other persons who might engage you there). Though, it might be good form to cite some evidence yourself if you're calling out someone else for not doing so ;).
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: MG on January 04, 2015, 01:46:36 am
hi Inshallabel!

lol, i don't think Genesis is a black box!  i like it a lot--i agree with you!  so much polysyndeton in the KJV :)

i really excited to see how the series turns out as far as everything you said

btw, what does your name mean?

Also-Genesis humor!
http://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/client-feedback-on-the-creation-of-the-earth
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Inshallabel on January 16, 2015, 06:13:35 pm
The name I just made up, although I realize now it is close to "Insha'Allah", meaning God Willing in Arabic.
Final element "bel" could be taken as "Abel", which descends from Hebraic "hevel" or "havel" signifying "breath."
So perhaps God's Willing Breath, although I hadn't considered any of that when I came up with it.

But since we eventually came into occlusion with Genesis-type fantasy-myth, it again occurred to me how common the theme of Nonmen generally are, if you think about it, across widely divergent civilizations.

In the Popol Vuh of the K'iche people of Central America, it is said that the Gods first attempted to create subjects, which included animals, men made of mud, and men made of wood, but these prior creations they eventually scrapped or abandoned due to their lack of intellect, speech, or soul... to pave the way for Men.

Similarly {yet dichotomously} in Greek Mythology there are the ages of the Gold Men, the Silver Men, and the Bronze Men which predate the age of the Iron Men {our epoch}, with each move away from Gold signifying a sort of devolution or generational removal from divinity for mankind.

Perhaps Nonmen are similar in this respect, beings Created, and then rejected by the Gods, in order to "pave the way" for Mankind?  {Somewhat similar to Noldorin Elves in Tolkienian mythos}.
Or perhaps Nonmen themselves are simply the "Silver Men" to an even more Ancient Race of "Gold Men", who would be as far from Nonmen as Men are to them...
The Nonmen originally stumble onto the scene of an even more archaic and profound species of "Men" {who are mighty and yet somehow at odds with the gods or vagaries of circumstance}, yet eventually genocide them in their waning years, and in the process of doing this they become the Nonmen...
Awaiting the inevitable influx of the "lesser" Men, or Bronze Men {the Five Tribes of Eanna} who could be considered to be well on their way to becoming the arcane and archaic race for a still younger influx of "Iron Men" {who are, during the time of the Kellian Empire and the Great Ordeal, a species of Men in their savage infancy in the unknown regions of Eanna}.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Somnambulist on January 16, 2015, 10:39:00 pm
Ishallabel...  much liking of what you just said about the devolution of races.  love it.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: The Sharmat on February 02, 2015, 06:52:54 am
Evolution via natural selection exists as a force in Bakker's universe. Of this I am quite certain. Any exceptions to this are probably specifically down to the unique properties of the world in which Earwa is located, which seems to possess a special place in the cosmos. The Inchoroi once had a consummate understanding of Biotech to the point of extremely advanced synthetic biology. Further, Aurang reflects upon a time long ago when the Inchoroi themselves could be classified along lines of genera, species, and race. These are, in a civilization as advanced as the Inchoroi, phylogenetic groupings that describe evolutionary relationships.

Given their ability to interbreed (limited though it is), it is highly unlikely that Cunuroi and Humans are products of convergent evolution. Far more likely is that they have a fairly recent (on the order of one or two million years, perhaps) share a common ancestor. I myself would conjecture that Nonmen are the result of the occasional evolutionary phenomenon of a single species giving rise to its own parasite, and that Nonmen are the result of a population isolated by environment (in this case, caves) beginning to speciate and specialize in exploiting other Homo sapiens, eventually resulting in a stable sub-population of people that only bred with each other and began receiving selection pressure for traits that allowed them to more effectively exploit other humans (keen senses, nocturnal lifestyle for nightly slave raids, great strength) and to resist reprisals (cave adaptation) by angry kinsman of the people they were exploiting. This sort of segregation and divergent evolution wherein a species splits into parasite/predator and prey is seen multiple times in the evolution of eusocial ants. In most cases, ants that live by hijacking the larvae or colonies of another species are found to be extremely closely related to the species they prey upon.

Of course hominids are not eusocial insects, and hymenopteran genetics are...weird, to say the least, from a human perspective. But there are some parallels.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Wilshire on March 03, 2015, 03:38:20 am
This is a great post TS. I have nothing to add, but greatly appreciate the insight. Hymenopteran genetics, eusocial insects... very interesting.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: The Sharmat on March 03, 2015, 10:05:51 am
Like I said, Hymenopterans are not Hominids, and their genetics are quite unusual from a human perspective (their sex determination system and capacity for asexual reproduction in particular). That said, the more evolutionarily advanced hymenopterans are, along with the isopterans (termites), some of the only species on the planet besides humans that build cities and practice large scale agriculture. So I think some useful comparisons can be made.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Simas Polchias on March 03, 2015, 09:28:43 pm
eventually resulting in a stable sub-population of people that only bred with each other and began receiving selection pressure for traits that allowed them to more effectively exploit other humans (keen senses, nocturnal lifestyle for nightly slave raids, great strength)
There is one disturbing thing about natural cause of cunuroi & halaroi difference. A cunuroi lifespan, which was around 400 years. Even if this is a legacy of a common ancestor, either men or nonmen changed in too damn multiplicative manner, something is not quite right there.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Francis Buck on March 03, 2015, 09:41:27 pm
I'm also a pretty firm believer that, broadly, evolution exists and functions within the Bakkerverse more or less as it does in our world. The Inchoroi's entire backstory kind of requires it. I do, however, think that the situation's slightly different on Earwa. I expect that life's evolution there was at lest semi-teleological, whereas elsewhere in the universe this was not the case.

This also makes the case that virtually every other "ensouled" being in the Bakkerverse (which the Inchoroi prove can exist without originating from Earwa) is likely damned. So basically an inconceivable amount of souls in that universe are going to Hell for the simple fact that they did not evolve on Earwa, and thus have no way of even beginning to understand which acts are sins and which are not.

There is one disturbing thing about natural cause of cunuroi & halaroi difference. A cunuroi lifespan, which was around 400 years. Even if this is a legacy of a common ancestor, either men or nonmen changed in too damn multiplicative manner, something is not quite right there.

It also raises the question of why the Nonmen's ashes have seemingly magical properties, though I expect this may simply be a result of the immortality graft they received from the Inchoroi (it follows that this same substance -- whatever it is -- would have "degraded" effects in the form of qirri).
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: The Sharmat on March 03, 2015, 09:55:32 pm
It's not always at all obvious just from "common sense" what changes are easy or hard to evolve. For example, limb duplications IRL (a very gross physical change) are trivially easy to derive from simple mutations. I wouldn't write off Cunuroi longevity as being too much of a change for evolution to explain.

The Nonmen's ashes aren't necessarily magical properties. Could be that cremation denatures some macro-molecule still present in trace amounts in the ashes in some specific way to fuck with certain receptors in the human brain. Coincidence, sure, but that kind of coincidence is what some real world narcotics derive from.

But yeah, I expect some normally "Supernatural" elements probably played a role in evolution on Earwa. But it's still evolution.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: MSJ on March 04, 2015, 03:59:16 am
Can someone please explain the 'jin=treachery & betrayal? Is it because the one Norman who turned to the Consult (Nin'janjin' I believe), and killed Cu'jara Cinmoi,  so it's anyone from his seed? Or,  that it's a suffix they attach to the name of a traitor or turncloak?
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Wilshire on March 04, 2015, 01:51:21 pm
I always read it like you're first suggestion, anyone from his house is forever a traitor.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: The Sharmat on March 04, 2015, 02:12:13 pm
Wait wasn't the Nonman Emissary that treats with Kellhus one of those?
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: MSJ on March 04, 2015, 03:39:58 pm
@sharmat, yes that's why I was asking the question, to be honest. Someone at Westeros suggested that the Norman emissary might be aligned with the Consult for that reason. And that's what prompted to understand why? Wilshire, that's how I read it, but I don't believe the emissary has the 'jin in the same place, and don't see how you can just assume he is from Nin'janjin seed. I didn't think there was some obvious connection, though I could be wrong.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Wilshire on March 04, 2015, 03:57:37 pm
I agree with that logic.

btw we know that the emissary is a liar, he mentions the Nil'Giccas is at Ishterebinith (or something along those lines), so its not a huge leap to believing that he is traitor to someone.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: MSJ on March 04, 2015, 04:04:46 pm
I agree, can't take what he says at face value, that's for sure.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: MG on March 04, 2015, 06:44:43 pm
hey for what it's worth, the Ishterebinth chapters in TUC have got to shed some light on this Sin'something something character that fought Cujara Cinmoi to a stand still.  he's mention in TTT glossary but his end is never noted.  perhaps it was just an earlier name for Nil-giccas maybe?
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: MSJ on March 04, 2015, 07:07:42 pm
In the TTT almanac it say that Nin'janjin struck down CC. Is that who your referring to?
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: MG on March 04, 2015, 07:24:38 pm
the fellow who was a lord over two mansions and Cujara finally said something like a lord of 3 mansions can be a brother to a lord of 2 mansions - that guy!  he was opposed to Cujara in the civil wars before the war with the Inchoroi and then joined with Cujara in the assault where Cujara was killed - i don't have my book with me!
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: MSJ on March 04, 2015, 07:54:29 pm
King Sin’niroiha. I believe that's who your talking about, just looked it up.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: MG on March 04, 2015, 10:23:53 pm
King Sin’niroiha. I believe that's who your talking about, just looked it up.
Bingo!
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Hirtius/Pansa on March 05, 2015, 08:13:34 pm
On the PON wikia, it states that Nin'Ciljiras is the same person as Nil'giccas.  Can someone cite where we get this information?  From Nin'sariccas in WLW, I was under the impression that the line of Nin has been in control of Ishterebinth for some time now and that Nil'giccas had been exiled loooong before the events of PON(With Nin'Ciljiras being a kind of usurper figure). 

Also want to learn more about Nin'hirarjal(sp?).  He is the author of one of the epigraphs for Four Revelations.  The line of traitors is everywhere!!
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: MG on March 08, 2015, 01:06:27 am
On the PON wikia, it states that Nin'Ciljiras is the same person as Nil'giccas.  Can someone cite where we get this information?  From Nin'sariccas in WLW, I was under the impression that the line of Nin has been in control of Ishterebinth for some time now and that Nil'giccas had been exiled loooong before the events of PON(With Nin'Ciljiras being a kind of usurper figure). 

Also want to learn more about Nin'hirarjal(sp?).  He is the author of one of the epigraphs for Four Revelations.  The line of traitors is everywhere!!

i think the wiki may have got it wrong - TTT glossary is ambiguous about those 2 names and whether they are the same person ... i think!
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: EkyannusIII on April 26, 2015, 04:07:52 pm

This also makes the case that virtually every other "ensouled" being in the Bakkerverse (which the Inchoroi prove can exist without originating from Earwa) is likely damned. So basically an inconceivable amount of souls in that universe are going to Hell for the simple fact that they did not evolve on Earwa, and thus have no way of even beginning to understand which acts are sins and which are not.

Why would this be the case? The examples of real sin we have from the text (rape, murder and theft, prostitution) are pretty easily known to be sins by humans; what would prevent similar congruities arising on other worlds?
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Inshallabel on April 27, 2015, 02:21:08 am

This also makes the case that virtually every other "ensouled" being in the Bakkerverse (which the Inchoroi prove can exist without originating from Earwa) is likely damned. So basically an inconceivable amount of souls in that universe are going to Hell for the simple fact that they did not evolve on Earwa, and thus have no way of even beginning to understand which acts are sins and which are not.

Why would this be the case? The examples of real sin we have from the text (rape, murder and theft, prostitution) are pretty easily known to be sins by humans; what would prevent similar congruities arising on other worlds?

Different evolution, different physiognomies and genetic systems, might produce different moralities or civilizations.  There's no reason to assume that a species entirely alien to our own (or Earwa's own) biosphere would inherit our sense of morality.  Rape, murder, and theft, as humans might experience it, could be notions entirely alien to a species with different interpretation of sexuality and possession...  Which is something that the Inchoroi seem to be...
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Wilshire on April 27, 2015, 02:00:31 pm

This also makes the case that virtually every other "ensouled" being in the Bakkerverse (which the Inchoroi prove can exist without originating from Earwa) is likely damned. So basically an inconceivable amount of souls in that universe are going to Hell for the simple fact that they did not evolve on Earwa, and thus have no way of even beginning to understand which acts are sins and which are not.

Why would this be the case? The examples of real sin we have from the text (rape, murder and theft, prostitution) are pretty easily known to be sins by humans; what would prevent similar congruities arising on other worlds?

Different evolution, different physiognomies and genetic systems, might produce different moralities or civilizations.  There's no reason to assume that a species entirely alien to our own (or Earwa's own) biosphere would inherit our sense of morality.  Rape, murder, and theft, as humans might experience it, could be notions entirely alien to a species with different interpretation of sexuality and possession...  Which is something that the Inchoroi seem to be...

A prevailing theory is that something or someone arbitrarily set the standards for damnation/morality in the Earwaverse, and whatever their/its objective view happens to be, that is what it is.

Thus, regardless of whether the rules make sense, or are fair, entire species are damned. Inchoroi and men (or certain races/faiths/ethnicity) among them.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: The Sharmat on May 20, 2015, 02:43:14 am
In particular, since Bakker likes the psycho-sexual stuff, I'd point out that there are species even on Earth where rape is the reproductive norm. If that's a sin, and something like that has a soul, it's screwed.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Earwan metaphysical concept of rape wasn't different than our own anyway. As misogynistic as that world is, I'd imagine they'd laugh at the idea that, say, a husband could rape his wife under any circumstances.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Wilshire on May 20, 2015, 12:56:40 pm
Speaking of animals, anything special about Herons and Snakes that make them good candidates for actually being holy/saved/not-damned? 
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: The Sharmat on May 20, 2015, 09:26:30 pm
Besides Mimara seeing them that way in the Judging Eye? Not that I know of.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Francis Buck on May 23, 2015, 12:58:44 pm
Personally, I think it's just associations with the gods/metaphysics that make certain animals "holy".

In the case of the storks, it's their association with birth and, thus, Yatwer.

As for snakes, I think it's because of the "Uroboros" motif, which seems to be an underlying trait of the universe (the circuit of watcher and watched, etc.). I think there's a very specific reason snakes are used by the Cishaurim, beyond simple convenience. 
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: MG on June 02, 2015, 05:01:34 pm
Personally, I think it's just associations with the gods/metaphysics that make certain animals "holy".

In the case of the storks, it's their association with birth and, thus, Yatwer.

As for snakes, I think it's because of the "Uroboros" motif, which seems to be an underlying trait of the universe (the circuit of watcher and watched, etc.). I think there's a very specific reason snakes are used by the Cishaurim, beyond simple convenience. 

another reason the Cishaurim might prefer snakes is to make a decoy!  if everyone thinks you are looking through the snakes on your head (or shoulders?) then maybe they won't think that you are also looking though the eyes of bugs in the room, or birds out of the windows, or even borrowing the eyes of all the humans around you without them even knowing!

or maybe the snakes are a decoy to take away scrutiny from the Third Eye which magically sees in all directions at once or sees the world like
(click to show/hide)
<-- Dune 2 spoiler
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: H on August 17, 2015, 05:28:21 pm
Quote
Friezes panelled the walls—were-animals with multiple heads and limbs—but not to the convoluted depths found elsewhere. The scalpers, Achamian could tell, thought them representations of devils: More than a few whispered homespun charms. But he knew better, recognizing in the figures a sensibility kindred to that of the Wolf Gate. It wasn't monsters that glared from the walls, he knew, but rather the many poses of natural beasts compressed into one image. Before they began forgetting, the Nonmen had been obsessed with the mysteries of time, particularly with the way the present seemed to bear the past and the future within it.

Long-lived, they had worshipped Becoming... the bane of Men.

Quote
"We are Many!" the Erratic roared. "We are legion! What you call your soul is nothing but a confusion, an inability! A plurality that cannot count the moments that divide it and so calls itself One."
His eyes flared white. Words boomed out, words that made a crimson globe of his head and face. The sound of vacant space ripping, a growl in the deepest pocket of the ear. Abstractions lashed the open air between them, wracked Achamian's Wards. The old Wizard raised arms against the glittering violence.
"Only when memory is stripped away!" Cleric cried out, the glow fading from his eyes. "Only then is Being revealed as pure Becoming! Only when the past dies can we shrug aside the burden that is our Soul!"
Fractal lights tangled the figure's outstretched arms. More arcane words, reverberating across ethereal surfaces. More flashing Abstractions, cracking and hissing across the glowing shells that shielded the Wizard. Fire consumed the thronging scrub and trees. Fire garnished the truncated walls. About them, the famed courtyards of the Holy Library had become burning pits.
"Only then does the Darkness sing untrammelled!" Cleric cried. "Only then!"
"And yet you seek memories!" the Wizard cried, at last delivered to tears.
"To be! Being is not a choice!"
"But you claim Being is deception!"
"Yes!"
"But that is nonsense! Madness!"
Again the Nonman King laughed.
"That is Becoming."

So, Being, unburdoned by the past, is Becoming?  In other words, a self-moving Soul?

Also:
Quote
"We Nonmen..." he continued telling his hands, "we think the dark holy, or at least we did before time and treachery leached all the ancient concerns from our souls..."

"The dark?" Galian said, and his voice warm and human—and as such, so very frail. "Holy?"

The Nonman lifted his flawless white face to the light, smiled at the Nansur scalper's questioning gaze.

"Of course... Think on it, my mortal friend. The dark is oblivion made manifest. And oblivion encircles us always. It is the ocean, and we are naught but silvery bubbles. It leans all about us. You see it every time you glimpse the horizon—though you know it not. In the light, our eyes are what blinds us. But in the dark—in the dark!—the line of the horizon opens... opens like a mouth... and oblivion gapes."

Though the Nonman's expression seemed bemused and ironic, Achamian, with his second, more ancient soul, recognized it as distinctively Cûnuroi—what they called noi'ra, bliss in pain.

"You must understand," Cleric said. "For my kind, holiness begins where comprehension ends. Ignorance stakes us out, marks our limits, draws the line between us and what transcends. For us, the true God is the unknown God, the God that outruns our febrile words, our flattering thoughts..."

So, the Viri digging so deep, making the Viritic Well, was a temple actually?
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: locke on August 17, 2015, 08:45:26 pm
Not so much a temple as a large hadron collidor with the purpose of connecting heaven and hell, a structure like a sketch of a black hole, cleric even describes an event horizon in the above quoted.   And perhaps the LHC esque structures  like the vitiric well or great medial screw were meant to study heaven and hell or were meant to create singularities perhaps in the form of chorae.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: H on August 18, 2015, 02:33:24 pm
I think you are definitely right on the similarities of Chorae and our conception of a singularity.  One point not to be overlooked though, which I feel is central, is that a Chorae is a paradox.  By all 'reason,' even Earwan reason, they should not be able to exist, yet they do.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: The Great Scald on August 27, 2015, 04:19:17 pm
Not so much a temple as a large hadron collidor with the purpose of connecting heaven and hell, a structure like a sketch of a black hole, cleric even describes an event horizon in the above quoted.   And perhaps the LHC esque structures  like the vitiric well or great medial screw were meant to study heaven and hell or were meant to create singularities perhaps in the form of chorae.

The Chorae-as-singularities idea definitely makes sense - they're to magic in Eärwa what gravitational singularities are to the space-time fabric in our universe.

As for the Nonmen trying to probe Heaven and Hell through an "event horizon", it's possible. IIRC, Bakker said in the Helen Cruz interview that his fictional sorcery is just as empirical as real science, and that the Gnostic schools have their own "arcane Einsteins" who undertake empirical investigations into things like Hell. It's definitely possible that the topoi in Cil-Aujas, and the dead Nonmen leaking in from Hell, is a result of this. I actually don't think the Inverse Fire shows the real thing - given Bakker's obsession with neuroscience, it's just as likely to be a neurosurgical Tekne device that alters the brains (and, thus, the beliefs) of those who look at it.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: The Great Scald on August 27, 2015, 04:32:11 pm
Also, I never really saw the Nonmen's worship of oblivion as actual "darkness-worship", but rather as a worship of endless Becoming (to use the Heidegger term) and infinite potential.

The Inchoroi and Nonmen both seem to have a worldview that Heidegger calls "Das Gestell" (translated into English stupidly as "framing"). It's the modernist attitude of viewing the universe as basically raw material that waits for us to rework or "perfect" it. The Inchoroi have a lot more in common with us modern Westerners than any of Bakker's human characters. They don't view anything as possessing any intrinsic "being" or "nature". They're all pure potential, waiting for us to pick them up. Trees are potential paper, a great river (Heidegger's own example) is a potential power source, AIDS victims are potential profits for medical companies, and the Inchoroi of today are, with the latest genetic rewirings, the new and improved Inchoroi of tomorrow. For modern people and Inchoroi, things have no real nature of their own - their nature is always something that we make real. So modern thinking always orients itself to the future.

In a lot of ways, Bakker's blind-brain philosophy is a criticism of this "Das Gestell" modernist view.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: MG on August 28, 2015, 12:01:55 am
Not so much a temple as a large hadron collidor with the purpose of connecting heaven and hell, a structure like a sketch of a black hole, cleric even describes an event horizon in the above quoted.   And perhaps the LHC esque structures  like the vitiric well or great medial screw were meant to study heaven and hell or were meant to create singularities perhaps in the form of chorae.

vitric well = wormhole!  just jump in!  Titirga falls out of the sky just when the Great Ordeal needs him!

i'm not sure i get the part about a mansion/well being like a huge trinket--wouldn't that cause all hell on the sorcery?  digging deep holes to try to make a big trinket out of planet Earwa?  Kellhus lures Mog right over Viri ftw???
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: H on January 28, 2016, 04:56:32 pm
OK, I am not sure if this is a new idea or not, but I was thinking of why the Nonmen seemingly changed belief systems post-Womb Plague. 

To preface this theory, we must hypothesize that collective belief in Earwa has power.  In the sense that a collective belief in something, changes the Outside and so makes it true.  The gods are powered by this.  The more believers, the more powerful the gods.

OK, that said, it would be my theory that pre-Womb Plague, worship of Oblivion was sufficient to save their souls.  It "saved" their souls, because it their souls were out of any of the god's reach, for a couple reasons: first, there were less men and so, less powerful gods, i.e. more spaces between them; second, with less powerful gods, "hiding your voice" and dodging the gods of the Outside was probably easier, since more space meant the draw of Oblivion was stronger, or easier to find.  Once the Inchoroi rewrote the Tusk though, the Nonmen were damned, a priori.  This meant that even a pious Nonman was damned outright with the rise of man, dispute his avoidance of the gods, because Men focused the eyes of the gods onto the Nonmen, via the Tusk.

Perhaps this helps explain this quote:

Quote
"What did you find?"
"God... broken into a million warring splinters."
A grim nod. "We worship the spaces between the Gods."
"Which is why you are damned."
Another nod, this one strangely brittle. "As False Men."
The Aspect-Emperor nodded in stoic regret. "As False Men."

Since the Nonmen had no gods, in fact, had the opposite of gods, it was relatively "easy" for damnation to have "overwritten" the oblivion the Nonman belief system was built to ensure since there is essentially no competition.

This could also work to explain this quote:

Quote
“The Nonmen…” he said evenly. “They have taught us how to hide our Voices. How to bypass the Outside, find Oblivion.”

Eyes like bladders of ink, each reflecting the tripods across their shining curve. The fluting of gill-tissues along the neck. “You worship the spaces between the Gods…”

“Yes.”

A rasp like the screams of faraway children tangled in the wind. Inchoroi laughter. “You are already damned. All of you are already damned.”

“So say you.”

A deep chested rumble. Popping mucous. “So says the Inverse Fire.”

Aurang is not lying when he says they are already damned for their Oblivion worship.  That probably did work once, but it was sundered by the Inchoroi's rewriting of the Tusk.  It also could be that the "worship" of the Inverse Fire also works against the Oblivion worship, so that simply by existing, the Inverse Fire (whatever it is) invalidates the native Nonman beliefs.

Not sure if that really makes any sense all typed out, but it did in my head...
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: profgrape on January 28, 2016, 05:50:54 pm
That's a really interesting notion, H.  Both in that the diffusion of Nonmen beliefs is what insulated them from damnation and that the Tusk acted as a "belief plague" designed to damn the Nonmen.

It stands to reason that the Nonmen, having been around for a long, long time, would have deduced how belief (and really, meaning) creates reality on their planet (or as I believe, for the entire universe).  The only sensible way to avoid catastrophe is non-belief, or as it's described, worshipping the "spaces between the gods."
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: H on January 28, 2016, 06:33:36 pm
Also, this could be further part of the Inchoroi plan for the Womb-Plague.  It was always a constant question of, why a Womb-Plague?  If they wanted them gone, why not kill them all?  But the truth is the Inchoroi didn't want them dead, they wanted them despondent, with no hope for the future (no women, no redemption, only damnation), but very much alive.  Why? 

Because they wanted sorcery and they knew that the Inverse Fire could help them ply it from the Nonmen.  They probably learned this from seducing the Aporos sorcerers.  The whole plan of enlistment is actually kind of brilliant in it's twisted way, so much easier than total eradication.  In fact, in the Flase Sun, we still see Aurang at it, even trying to lure Titirga, even with possession of Shaeönanra.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: MSJ on January 29, 2016, 03:19:13 am
Also, this could be further part of the Inchoroi plan for the Womb-Plague.  It was always a constant question of, why a Womb-Plague?  If they wanted them gone, why not kill them all?  But the truth is the Inchoroi didn't want them dead, they wanted them despondent, with no hope for the future (no women, no redemption, only damnation), but very much alive.  Why? 

Because they wanted sorcery and they knew that the Inverse Fire could help them ply it from the Nonmen.  They probably learned this from seducing the Aporos sorcerers.  The whole plan of enlistment is actually kind of brilliant in it's twisted way, so much easier than total eradication.  In fact, in the Flase Sun, we still see Aurang at it, even trying to lure Titirga, even with possession of Shaeönanra.

I like this H. Makes a lot of sense in regards to the womb-plague and why the Inchoiri wouldn't just devise a way to eradicate them all, which they could've. No, the needed the Nonman for sorcery. Well thought out.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: H on January 29, 2016, 01:07:04 pm
I like this H. Makes a lot of sense in regards to the womb-plague and why the Inchoiri wouldn't just devise a way to eradicate them all, which they could've. No, the needed the Nonman for sorcery. Well thought out.

Also, not only this, but I think they also learned a great deal from Nin’janjin while he was a "guest" of the Ark.  No doubt in my mind that this was when the Inchoroi sequences the Nonman gnome (or at least gain some knowledge of it), presumably realizing that they could "treat" them with exactly what had prolonged their own lives.  At the same time, they had raw genetic information they could (debase) use for the weapons races.

I think most of the Tekne was already "lost" by this time.  This is why they couldn't simply repair the Ark.  Nor could they make more Heron Spears.  They couldn't even make weapon races from scratch, mainly because their understanding of their own biology pertained only to the Grafts, that is, how to add to their own frames, not make new ones.  Bashrags are the biggest clue as to how crude their understanding and implementation was.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: profgrape on January 29, 2016, 04:39:03 pm
Having lost the Tekne, it makes a lot of sense for the Inchoroi to want to learn sorcery.  Or at least, learn how to counter it (Aporos).  It could be that the Nonmen traded sorcery for immortality.

I don't, however, think that gaining sorcery was the intent of the Womb-Plague.  Killing all of the Non-women doesn't seem like the sort of thing that would motivate the Nonmen to share the Gnosis with the Inchoroi.  On the contrary, it ultimately unified them against the Inchoroi.

Instead, I think the Inchoroi were looking to simply eradicate the Nonmen (IIRC, some of the men became ill as well). But their crude grasp of the Tekne only managed to effect the death of the women (I write "effect" as I subscribe to the theory that the Nonmen killed the woman).
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: H on January 29, 2016, 05:00:18 pm
The trouble there is that they actually deliver on the immortality they promised.  If you want to eradicate a race, why make them immortal?  There is the possibility that it was all they had, but still, it is so ham-handed you have to wonder why even bother?

What I like about my theory is that it fits the Inchoroi MO of subversion over murder.  Well, Aurang's MO.  It is just as plausible that the Womb-Plague was just a Tekne bumble, but I don't much like the bumbling Inchoroi/Consult idea, even if that's how they often seem.  They had a nearly impossible task and are doing what they can.

The Inchoroi probably figured that Nonman society couldn't handle immortality, since they knew how poorly thier own did.  That's why they had no qualms about extending their lives for them, they knew it was a disastrous gift.
Title: Re: Nonmen Society
Post by: Wilshire on January 29, 2016, 07:19:35 pm
Probably necessarily disastrous without further Tekne graphs augmenting memory and such. I'm imagining an early Inchoroi society beginning to fall into chaos before they realize their mistake, being forced to abruptly pour all resources into researching how to counteract the affects of too many memories, eventually succeeding after losing many brothers to the memory-plague. Curiously, its like Alzheimer's, though for the opposite reasons.