The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => Atrocity Tales => Topic started by: Borque on November 16, 2013, 02:37:06 pm

Title: Hiding your Voice
Post by: Borque on November 16, 2013, 02:37:06 pm
Titirga seems to believe that it's possible to avoid damnation by "hiding his Voice". This is supposedly accomplished by "worshipping the spaces between the Gods". Or at least it's connected. This was taught to Men by the Siqu.

Why has this belief, from what we have seen so far, disappeared? Maybe it was never known among the Anagogics, but at least Mandate Sorcerers should know about - and grasp desperately for - this possible way to avoid damnation.

Theories, please...
Title: Re: Hiding your Voice
Post by: Garet Jax on November 16, 2013, 03:14:40 pm
I am not convinced that it is worshiping the spaces between the gods is how he hides his voice.  I was of the opinion that it was due to his blindness and possible command of the Psukhe.

That being said, if hiding your voice comes from worshiping the spaces between the gods, I think it could be rather simple why the practice (if it ever was one) died off. 

It seems that the 3 Gnostic schools that would have learned about this from the Nonman Tutelage were all wiped out in the First Apocalypse.  The Mangaecca moved to the Incű-Holoinas, and the Mihtrul and the Sohonc were destroyed. 

Tirtiga, who IMO would be the only one who achieved hiding his voice in this manner, "died" almost 1,000 years before Seswatha was born.

Seswatha founded the Mandate (the last Gnostic school of the time) after the First Apocalypse and could have possibly not known about the practice of worshiping the spaces between the gods as a method of avoiding damnation.  Either that or, worshiping the spaces between the gods only grants oblivion, and Seswatha wasn't after oblivion.

edit: I am still attaching the mark/bruise to damnation/oblivion.  Thanks for the clarification.
Title: Re: Hiding your Voice
Post by: Borque on November 16, 2013, 03:34:39 pm
Here is the full quote:

Quote from: The False Sun
“Do you not fear damnation?“

A careful look from the Hero-Mage.

“The Nonmen…” he said evenly. “They have taught us how to hide our Voices. How to bypass the Outside, find Oblivion.”

Eyes like bladders of ink, each reflecting the tripods across their shining curve. The fluting of gill-tissues along the neck. “You worship the spaces between the Gods…”

“Yes.”

A rasp like the screams of faraway children tangled in the wind. Inchoroi laughter. “You are already damned. All of you are already damned.“

“So say you.”

A deep chested rumble. Popping mucous. “So says the Inverse Fire.”
Title: Re: Hiding your Voice
Post by: Borque on November 16, 2013, 03:58:43 pm
Garet - I didn't think to check for posts until after I had posted the quote. I'm apparently quite self-absorbed.

It seems that the 3 Gnostic schools that would have learned about this from the Nonman Tutelage were all wiped out in the First Apocalypse.  The Mangaecca moved to the Incű-Holoinas, and the Mihtrul and the Sohonc were destroyed. 

Tirtiga, who IMO would be the only one who achieved hiding his voice in this manner, "died" almost 1,000 years before Seswatha was born.

Seswatha founded the Mandate (the last Gnostic school of the time) after the First Apocalypse and could have possibly not known about the practice of worshiping the spaces between the gods as a method of avoiding damnation.  Either that or, worshiping the spaces between the gods only grants oblivion, and Seswatha wasn't after oblivion.
But it would seem to be quite crucial information, and not something the Sohonc likely would just forget or don't care about. And that would imply that Ses knew, too.

I see a couple of possibilities:

1) The Sohonc didn't know at the time of Seswatha. Why this would be, I can't say. Maybe they were almost obliterated at some point, and someone never returned that particular book to the Sauglish library.

2) The Sohonc (or the Mandate) knew, but at some point their elite damnation research team has proven the practice ineffective (project de-funded and merged with the Various Odd Nonman Ideas Catalog project). So Ses and the Mandate know but don't really care a lot.

3) The Sohonc knew, but Ses forgot to tell the Mandate, or more interestingly, deliberately chose not to tell the Mandate.
Title: Re: Hiding your Voice
Post by: Madness on November 16, 2013, 06:00:39 pm
Though you lose your soul, you shall gain the world…
Title: Re: Hiding your Voice
Post by: Wilshire on November 17, 2013, 12:35:46 am
“The Nonmen…” he said evenly. “They have taught us how to hide our Voices. How to bypass the Outside, find Oblivion.”

I read this as unrelated to sorcery... Am I the only one? When you die, you are supposed to 'reach' to the demons that will devour your soul. Reach with your voice. I imagine falling through the void is painful, lots of screaming and yelling etc.
Though if "Voices" is capitalized I guess that this makes less sense.
Title: Re: Hiding your Voice
Post by: Borque on November 17, 2013, 01:59:55 pm
I read this as unrelated to sorcery... Am I the only one? When you die, you are supposed to 'reach' to the demons that will devour your soul. Reach with your voice. I imagine falling through the void is painful, lots of screaming and yelling
I haven't thought of this interpretation myself, but it is possible. Still, it seems like something someone should practice, or at least think of as a possible way to avoid damnation. There is no mention of this in the text.
Title: Re: Hiding your Voice
Post by: Madness on November 17, 2013, 02:07:51 pm
For my ambiguity, I'm going to suggest that it is directly related to scaring the world and earning the mark.

Titirga's cipher is that his mark is different. He's doing something different than other sorcerers to earn a different mark. Marking the blood of the onta and having a mark gets you noticed by the gods - probably immediately but certainly faster and with more clarity than the Gods seem to see those non-Few, who have to be sinful or righteous before they become noticed. Avoiding Damnation by hiding your Voice (sorcerous exercise) is still possible while being a sorcerer.

Anutteral ;)?
Title: Re: Hiding your Voice
Post by: Wilshire on November 17, 2013, 03:15:41 pm
no-utteral.
Title: Re: Hiding your Voice
Post by: Madness on November 17, 2013, 03:31:22 pm
Lol - is that a suggestion or are you just knocking my humour?
Title: Re: Hiding your Voice
Post by: Callan S. on November 17, 2013, 10:48:50 pm
Analtteral! ;)

Quote
Eyes like bladders of ink, each reflecting the tripods across their shining curve.
Bit off topic, but probably much easier to get an aswer to - what are the tripods?
Title: Re: Hiding your Voice
Post by: Borque on November 18, 2013, 09:13:29 am
Bit off topic, but probably much easier to get an aswer to - what are the tripods?
Quote from: The False Sun
At last they entered the broad circle of the Asinna, the expansive hub of Nogaral. A great rug woven of brushed white grasses softened both the floor and the gloom. Bronze tripods glowered golden, casting yellow petals across the weave. Tablet racks fashioned of black ash loomed about the chamber’s circumference.
Title: Re: Hiding your Voice
Post by: Madness on November 18, 2013, 01:09:28 pm
Thanks, Borque.
Title: Re: Hiding your Voice
Post by: Wilshire on November 18, 2013, 02:41:58 pm
Lol - is that a suggestion or are you just knocking my humour?
;)
Title: Re: Hiding your Voice
Post by: Madness on November 18, 2013, 08:15:41 pm
Lol - I shall scar my arm to mark when I last murdered humour.
Title: Re: Hiding your Voice
Post by: Callan S. on November 21, 2013, 10:26:15 pm
All the jokes a man would have made, now resided upon his arms...


Thanks, Borque.

Do the gill lines mean the inchies are genuinely an alien species? I mean why add that, when yo a sex machine? It sounds like a remnant? Anyway, that's a bit off topic, but had to be said. ;)
Title: Re: Hiding your Voice
Post by: Borque on November 23, 2013, 02:49:45 pm
Do the gill lines mean the inchies are genuinely an alien species? I mean why add that, when yo a sex machine? It sounds like a remnant? Anyway, that's a bit off topic, but had to be said. ;)
I think they added them. They would be very useful for raping various ocean creatures. And in jacuzzis.
Title: Re: Hiding your Voice
Post by: The Sharmat on February 21, 2014, 04:21:47 am
There are animals with gills that can breathe air.

I'm quite certain the Inchoroi are an alien species, since their native language is outside the range of human hearing, and they had to modify themselves just to be able to communicate with the Nonmen.
Title: Re: Hiding your Voice
Post by: Madness on February 21, 2014, 01:31:06 pm
I've always thought the Inchoroi are aliens - science-fiction crossover told strictly from a fantasy perspective.

It complicates things if they are Ciphrang.
Title: Re: Hiding your Voice
Post by: The Sharmat on February 22, 2014, 06:28:38 am
Imagine the poor scifi invaders' surprise when they discover they crash-landed on fantasy planet, and instead of just blowing up the iron age savages with their superior tech, it turns out the savages can shoot down all their stuff by firing magical lasers from their hands, and have bullshit like impossible flying chariots.

It's just not fair.
Title: Re: Hiding your Voice
Post by: Madness on February 22, 2014, 06:15:54 pm
Lol - excepting that they, apparently, wanted to find a world like Earwa eventually...
Title: Re: Hiding your Voice
Post by: Wilshire on February 24, 2014, 09:38:12 pm
Imagine the poor scifi invaders' surprise when they discover they crash-landed on fantasy planet, and instead of just blowing up the iron age savages with their superior tech, it turns out the savages can shoot down all their stuff by firing magical lasers from their hands, and have bullshit like impossible flying chariots.

It's just not fair.

lmao yes. Its like playing a game as a kids and that one jackass always says "no you didn't kill me, I'm wearing magical bullet-proof armor", except the magic is real and the Inchoroi really couldn't hurt them.
Title: Re: Hiding your Voice
Post by: mrganondorf on February 25, 2014, 07:42:20 pm
It's weird that "hiding your voice" seems like a project similar to what the Consult achieve in creating a thing that the gods cannot see.  Do not know what it means
Title: Re: Hiding your Voice
Post by: mrganondorf on July 01, 2014, 03:56:55 am
Hiding your voice would--would this mean overwriting the god's song with your own but making the amendments seem like the god's song?  This would seem to suggest that the Cishaurim are the ultimate at "hiding voice."  But it seems terribly unlikely that humans would stumble upon a method that the nonmen knew nothing about.  I wonder if we'll see something in Ishterebinth that is effectivey the Nonman way of doing the Cishaurim thing...
Title: Re: Hiding your Voice
Post by: Wilshire on July 02, 2014, 04:49:45 pm
Good point. Why would the Nonmen, who spent millenium trying to hide from the Gods, never find an answer like the Psuke.
Title: Re: Hiding your Voice
Post by: The Sharmat on September 04, 2014, 04:15:09 pm
Lol - excepting that they, apparently, wanted to find a world like Earwa eventually...
I'm not sure they knew that their promised world would manifest its properties specifically in that way though. I imagine it was more of an "Ah, that makes sense" moment after the fact when they first saw sorcery than "Sorcery! Just what we've been looking for!"

Good point. Why would the Nonmen, who spent millenium trying to hide from the Gods, never find an answer like the Psuke.
Well

1. We don't really know that the Cishaurim aren't all damned.

and

2. Developing the Psukhe is apparently something that is only obvious to you as something you can do if you're the very rare combination of being one of the Few and totally blind. Doubt that's happened that often. And when it has there's a decent chance they've already learned other sorcery and would just use that rather than realizing they've stumbled upon an entirely new metaphysics. Although that obviously can sometimes have strange results like Titirga and his somewhat less offensive bruise.
Title: Re: Hiding your Voice
Post by: Wilshire on September 09, 2014, 08:03:55 pm
If the Psuke is indeed significantly different, its not difficult to understand that it was a path that no one saw. If all you have is a hammer, all your problems look like nails, as they say.

Even still though, the timescales we are looking at really would seem to suggest that the nonmen should have had so development of the Psuke, unless there is some reason that they cannot wield it. A whole lot can happen with 10,000 years of metaphysical tinkering. Then again, the mighty detest change. A problem with overarching civilizations and stagnation.
Title: Re: Hiding your Voice
Post by: mrganondorf on September 09, 2014, 08:55:57 pm
If I were the Scarlet Spires, I'd experiment with blindness and whatever else besides.
Title: Re: Hiding your Voice
Post by: Garet Jax on September 10, 2014, 03:21:47 pm
If the Psuke is indeed significantly different, its not difficult to understand that it was a path that no one saw. If all you have is a hammer, all your problems look like nails, as they say.
...unless there is some reason that they cannot wield it...

This is where I think the issue is.  I always understood the Psukhe as the dispensing of an emotion/passion that matches the "Solitary God's".  If that is true, wouldn't the Nonmen be literally incapable of doing so if they worship the spaces between the gods?
Title: Re: Hiding your Voice
Post by: The Sharmat on September 10, 2014, 04:42:00 pm
Moenghus could use the Psukhe and his worship of the Solitary God was a sham.

Now Kellhus concludes that his strength in the Psukhe was quite feeble, but that's not the same as being incapable of wielding it.
Title: Re: Hiding your Voice
Post by: Garet Jax on September 10, 2014, 05:31:27 pm
...and his worship of the Solitary God was a sham.

Not saying you are wrong, but do we know this?


I can't remember that clearly.
Title: Re: Hiding your Voice
Post by: The Sharmat on September 11, 2014, 12:57:15 am
Moenghus says that he found nothing Outside to contradict fundamental Dunyain principles. Sounds like he doesn't worship the Solitary God to me.
Title: Re: Hiding your Voice
Post by: Wilshire on September 12, 2014, 12:47:19 pm
Yeah like The Sharmat said, he knows of the outside/gods/etc, but claims the the Dunyain principles, especially the before-after cause/effect cycle, is not contradicted with its existence. I guess we don't know, but Moe certainly seemed the model Dunyain, much more so than Kellhus, and worship is a very non-Dunyain thing.
Title: Re: Hiding your Voice
Post by: Triskele on September 14, 2014, 06:40:03 am
That makes sense to me too, but Moe does say something like "The God sleeps.  Ever has it been thus.  Only through blah blah can we awaken it..." 

Not sure what that means.  He might not literally be referring to the God but is perhaps just using a synonym for the Dunyain's Absolute?
Title: Re: Hiding your Voice
Post by: locke on September 15, 2014, 06:07:18 am


Not sure what that means.

It means kwisatz haderach, I think.



All typ0s courtesy of Samsung.

Title: Re: Hiding your Voice
Post by: mrganondorf on September 17, 2014, 05:08:41 am


Not sure what that means.

It means kwisatz haderach, I think.



All typ0s courtesy of Samsung.



:P  Circumfix = box o' hand pain

Kellhus is not human
Title: Re: Hiding your Voice
Post by: Wilshire on September 18, 2014, 01:04:23 pm
No no circumfix would either be the spice-trance, or the pain that induced Miles Teg to be super human
Title: Re: Hiding your Voice
Post by: mrganondorf on September 24, 2014, 06:40:09 pm
No no circumfix would either be the spice-trance, or the pain that induced Miles Teg to be super human

circumfix is a ghola 'remembering'?
Title: Re: Hiding your Voice
Post by: Bolivar on September 30, 2014, 03:06:11 am
I think Moenghus' comments, together with the Inchoroi's interstellar origins, suggest that damnation and a non-anthropomorphized God exist independent of what's going on in Earwa, with its sorcery and its Outside. He's telling Kellhus that, while those things are real, they are not what they facially appear to be, and should not displace his pursuit of the Logos.
Title: Re: Hiding your Voice
Post by: Wilshire on September 30, 2014, 03:16:00 pm
I'm convinced that both the Solitary God exists, is probably responsible for "objective" damnation, and works independently from the Hundred.
Title: Re: Hiding your Voice
Post by: Seökti on January 23, 2015, 07:01:53 pm
is it possible sorcerers stopped hiding their voices simply because the tusk unilaterally declared them damned and they simply believed it?  Or is there something to the nonman 'worship of the spaces between the gods' that is functionally demanding for humans?  Perhaps our short lives make true worship of oblivion impossible?  BTW i think the solitary god is the sum total of all existence, hence his solitary nature.
Title: Re: Hiding your Voice
Post by: Wilshire on January 23, 2015, 07:23:40 pm
What about the Blood of the Onta, which stains the Nonmen as deeply as anyone else? I associate that with some kind metaphysical presence in the outside, especially once you die. It doesn't seem lke they are really hiding much of anything.

Certainly though increased lifespan, indeed an immortal life, may make worshipping oblivion possible.
Title: Re: Hiding your Voice
Post by: The Sharmat on February 02, 2015, 08:01:18 am
That makes sense to me too, but Moe does say something like "The God sleeps.  Ever has it been thus.  Only through blah blah can we awaken it..." 

Not sure what that means.  He might not literally be referring to the God but is perhaps just using a synonym for the Dunyain's Absolute?
That's how I read it. But who knows? There's a lot about Moenghus we'll probably never know, since his son and Cnaiur cut our time with him short

I'm convinced that both the Solitary God exists, is probably responsible for "objective" damnation, and works independently from the Hundred.
I'm more and more beginning to suspect that whoever holds the Judging Eye gets to set the standard for damnation. Unfortunately it currently resides in an abused, misanthropic woman that has been conditioned by her upbringing to believe the world is fundamentally unfair.

is it possible sorcerers stopped hiding their voices simply because the tusk unilaterally declared them damned and they simply believed it?  Or is there something to the nonman 'worship of the spaces between the gods' that is functionally demanding for humans?  Perhaps our short lives make true worship of oblivion impossible?  BTW i think the solitary god is the sum total of all existence, hence his solitary nature.
If Shaeonanra, Aurang, and Mekeritrig are to be believed, the "hiding your voice" thing never really worked anyway.
Title: Re: Hiding your Voice
Post by: mrganondorf on February 11, 2015, 05:40:28 am
is it possible sorcerers stopped hiding their voices simply because the tusk unilaterally declared them damned and they simply believed it?  Or is there something to the nonman 'worship of the spaces between the gods' that is functionally demanding for humans?  Perhaps our short lives make true worship of oblivion impossible?  BTW i think the solitary god is the sum total of all existence, hence his solitary nature.

wow that is devious!  if the Consult angled at getting human sorcerers damned via the Tusk, would it be for spite only or are they working some kind of angle in the Outside (and not just sealing the world)?  i keep getting this impression from the Inchoroi that they have this mission to seal the world and they are bent on pursuing it even if many of them perish in the process.  that is, it doesn't matter if Sil is himself individually damned, it's only important that the Inchoroi scheme go forward.  that makes me think that maybe part of the Inchoroi scheme involves being able to reclaim the damned, to bring them back.  the Inchoroi sure throw there lives away for being so knowledgeable about damnation
Title: Re: Hiding your Voice
Post by: s Ī n Ī ster to Ā st on February 11, 2015, 10:39:09 am
@mrganondorf, since it's been theorized that the No-God traps souls and prevents them from going to the Outside maybe it can also pull souls back from the Outside into the physical world as well, that way no matter the amount of casualties the Inchoroi know they can bring the others back once the No-God has been awakened again.
Title: Re: Hiding your Voice
Post by: Wilshire on February 11, 2015, 01:38:38 pm
I'm convinced that both the Solitary God exists, is probably responsible for "objective" damnation, and works independently from the Hundred.
I'm more and more beginning to suspect that whoever holds the Judging Eye gets to set the standard for damnation. Unfortunately it currently resides in an abused, misanthropic woman that has been conditioned by her upbringing to believe the world is fundamentally unfair.

I like this theory, though not sure if I agree with all of it. At any rate, I am also pretty convinced that however the damnation machine works, its going to be unfair, and probably a large part of that unfairness is going to rest on the shoulders of the damned.


@mrganondorf, since it's been theorized that the No-God traps souls and prevents them from going to the Outside maybe it can also pull souls back from the Outside into the physical world as well, that way no matter the amount of casualties the Inchoroi know they can bring the others back once the No-God has been awakened again.
I don't think that is very likely. Maybe it could suck souls back from the Outside, but probably not in a way that you could access them individually. They seem pretty hesitant to die for this to be the case.
Title: Re: Hiding your Voice
Post by: The Sharmat on February 11, 2015, 08:01:05 pm
It's also entirely possible the Inchoroi are self-centered jerks and so don't care that much that Sil is dead beyond maybe a bit of injured pride.
Title: Re: Hiding your Voice
Post by: Garet Jax on February 15, 2015, 09:57:00 pm
... self-centered...

Think of Kellhus as an unbeknownst agent of the Inchoroi, and you will get my self centered remark in the other thread.
Title: Re: Hiding your Voice
Post by: The Sharmat on February 16, 2015, 01:21:03 am
I don't get it.
Title: Re: Hiding your Voice
Post by: Garet Jax on February 17, 2015, 10:18:07 pm
I just mean that regardless of Kellhus' outward actions, he is still making self centered decisions.  Even with Proyas, grooming him to his own ends.
Title: Re: Hiding your Voice
Post by: The Sharmat on February 18, 2015, 12:20:24 pm
From a certain point of view, all action is self centered.
Title: Re: Hiding your Voice
Post by: Wilshire on February 19, 2015, 08:00:33 pm
From a certain point of view, all action is self centered.
From the right point of view ;). Everything is always for the self, from material gains on earth to purchasing your way through the gates of heaven.
Its just that not everyone is aware of that.
Title: Re: Hiding your Voice
Post by: mrganondorf on August 09, 2015, 07:29:29 pm
@mrganondorf, since it's been theorized that the No-God traps souls and prevents them from going to the Outside maybe it can also pull souls back from the Outside into the physical world as well, that way no matter the amount of casualties the Inchoroi know they can bring the others back once the No-God has been awakened again.

this makes sense to me since the Inchoroi must have some kind of sufficient motivation--why risk the individual's or hive's eternal damnation unless the prize is worth it?

forging ahead, i wonder if there are any examples of Inchoroi cowards or defectors--individuals that realize they are damned and that they have to do everything to stay out of the grave--they must especially avoid antagonizing nonmen (who were clearly badasses from their first conflicts with the nonmen) and they must avoid making No-Gods that force the whole world to pay attention to you.

it would seem like a few Inchoroi would take off and live in the mountains or something ... or in a dark place ... pass the time doing something like breeding monkeys or something ...

i know it's not rational from the long-term point of view--the inchoroi might be super long-lived but that doesn't mean that they are immortal, but there are plenty of people that don't do rational things.  are the inchoroi incapable of commiting errors in reasoning?

of course, if they are a hive mind, then perhaps you get no one wandering off.  their ability to communicate with each other without mouths perhaps suggests this.  Sil was just a replaceable arch-drone?

the only other alternatives i can think of is that: 1) the Inchoroi are some kind of super-altruists (from the perspective of what they think is 'good'), they risk hell from nobility; or 2) they are incapable of reasoning on this point--they are hardwired to risk going to hell maybe like the way that one skinspy knew that it was likely to die after Kellhus captured it (after Kellhus' Aurang encounter) and simultaneously believed it would be rescued.

who hardwires an Inchoroi?  the Ark?  othere Inchoroi?  the stupid Engineer things from Prometheus?
Title: Re: Hiding your Voice
Post by: mrganondorf on August 09, 2015, 07:45:22 pm
have we discussed who their supposed to be hiding their voices from? does "hiding your voice" imply that it is being hidden from the gaze of someone?  if they are hiding it from the gods, then the task seems to be apiece with Mog who dwells in the gods' blind spot
Title: Re: Hiding your Voice
Post by: Garet Jax on August 12, 2015, 08:31:20 pm
have we discussed who their supposed to be hiding their voices from? does "hiding your voice" imply that it is being hidden from the gaze of someone?  if they are hiding it from the gods, then the task seems to be apiece with Mog who dwells in the gods' blind spot

I thought it was always "hiding your voice from the gods".  Basically worshiping oblivion? 
Title: Re: Hiding your Voice
Post by: H on August 13, 2015, 12:36:23 pm
@mrganondorf, since it's been theorized that the No-God traps souls and prevents them from going to the Outside maybe it can also pull souls back from the Outside into the physical world as well, that way no matter the amount of casualties the Inchoroi know they can bring the others back once the No-God has been awakened again.

this makes sense to me since the Inchoroi must have some kind of sufficient motivation--why risk the individual's or hive's eternal damnation unless the prize is worth it?

forging ahead, i wonder if there are any examples of Inchoroi cowards or defectors--individuals that realize they are damned and that they have to do everything to stay out of the grave--they must especially avoid antagonizing nonmen (who were clearly badasses from their first conflicts with the nonmen) and they must avoid making No-Gods that force the whole world to pay attention to you.

it would seem like a few Inchoroi would take off and live in the mountains or something ... or in a dark place ... pass the time doing something like breeding monkeys or something ...

I tend to think that the Inchoroi we see are actually the defectors.  They, perhaps for military reasons, perhaps just in the interests of transcendentalism, followed a path of amoral experimentation on themselves and probably on others.  These 'crimes' lead to their discovery of the Inverse Fire and so the knowledge of their own damnation.  Fret by this, rather than reverse course and repent, they forged forward believing that following through and completely transcending their nature would yield the answer to the Inverse Fire's problem.

As for defectors on from among those who made The Fall, I think the effect of the Inverse Fire is too strong to overcome.  After countless planets scourged, I think those who were possibly wishy-washy on the whole endeavor were probably gone by then.

i know it's not rational from the long-term point of view--the inchoroi might be super long-lived but that doesn't mean that they are immortal, but there are plenty of people that don't do rational things.  are the inchoroi incapable of commiting errors in reasoning?

of course, if they are a hive mind, then perhaps you get no one wandering off.  their ability to communicate with each other without mouths perhaps suggests this.  Sil was just a replaceable arch-drone?

I think the Inchoroi that we see are functionally immortal, in the sense that old-age would not kill them.  It might lead them to diminished capacity in some ways, but I don't believe they could actually die.

I think their 'reasoning' is inherently flawed, because it is based on ego.  The idea that rather than submit to judgement, which they feel is unjust, they would rather master judgement.  This follows on what I believe the felt from the get-go, from the time when they first devised what would become the Tekne.  I believe that the Inchoroi were 'originally' an aquatic species, hence the "fluting of gill-tissues along the neck" when they speak.  I think the Tekne was probably first a way for the Inchoroi to transcend their water-bound nature, in other words, not submit to their nature, but to master it. 

As for communicating with each other, Cincűlic is probably what their language became, adapted from it's original aquatic nature to air-breathing.  It is probably a function of the Inchoroi using thier gills as vocal cords.  Since there are presumably multiple gills, the sound is probably has multiple tones and probably requires more air to produce, which might explain why the Nonmen called it "the gasp of many reeds."

As for Sil, since he was "King After-the-Fall" which presumes he wasn't King before the Fall.  Chances are he was just the biggest, strongest and most bellicose of those left, post-Fall.  The idea that they shouldn't waste time, sally forth and waste Earwa post-haste was probably the prevailing sentiment.  Considering how ego-driven the Inchoroi are, I doubt if they really considered the idea of an actual dangerous resistance effort seriously.

the only other alternatives i can think of is that: 1) the Inchoroi are some kind of super-altruists (from the perspective of what they think is 'good'), they risk hell from nobility; or 2) they are incapable of reasoning on this point--they are hardwired to risk going to hell maybe like the way that one skinspy knew that it was likely to die after Kellhus captured it (after Kellhus' Aurang encounter) and simultaneously believed it would be rescued.

who hardwires an Inchoroi?  the Ark?  othere Inchoroi?  the stupid Engineer things from Prometheus?

I think there are several 'motivators' for Inchoroi behavior.  First is ego, so headstrong and self-assured that their original design (and so, the path they took) is inherently just that they feel they must be right (even if that means the rest of the universe is wrong).  Second is their nature and their 'grafted' nature, which lead them so willingly to hedonism (a function of their transcendental ideals).  Third is the Inverse Fire, which ratifies all the rest and assures them that they are justified in doing what they feel they must.

have we discussed who their supposed to be hiding their voices from? does "hiding your voice" imply that it is being hidden from the gaze of someone?  if they are hiding it from the gods, then the task seems to be apiece with Mog who dwells in the gods' blind spot

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“The Nonmen…” he said evenly. “They have taught us how to hide our Voices. How to bypass the Outside, find Oblivion.”

Eyes like bladders of ink, each reflecting the tripods across their shining curve. The fluting of gill-tissues along the neck. “You worship the spaces between the Gods…”

“Yes.”

A rasp like the screams of faraway children tangled in the wind. Inchoroi laughter. “You are already damned. All of you are already damned.”

“So say you.”

A deep chested rumble. Popping mucous. “So says the Inverse Fire.”

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This is what makes piety and devotion so important: the more favour an individual can secure in the Outside (primarily through the worship of Gods and the honouring of ancestors), the greater the chance of finding bliss rather than torment in the afterlife.

The idea, I think, is that by not being pious and devoted, your soul will have attracted no scrutiny from any Outside agents, therefor, when you die, your soul might pass unmolested through the Outside.  Aurang seems to find this laughable though.  I would actually tend to think the Aurang is being truthful here, that this 'method' is not sufficient, because if it was, why wouldn't the Inchoroi have just done it?  A possible other explanation would be that they are totally mislead by the Inverse Fire or that the Inchoroi have done too much 'wrong' to attempt to dodge scrutiny now.