The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => Atrocity Tales => Topic started by: Wilshire on October 02, 2014, 03:15:53 pm

Title: The Knife of Many Hands [Spoilers]
Post by: Wilshire on October 02, 2014, 03:15:53 pm
First I've heard of a new short by Bakker, yet to be published:

Quote from: Post Title (http://rsbakker.wordpress.com/2014/10/02/post-title/)
A short-story set in Carythusal on the eve of the Scholastic Wars which Grimdark Magazine (http://grimdarkmagazine.com/) is set to publish, likely in two parts, sometime in the near future

Not sure if this is actually going to be considered an Atrocity Tale.
Title: Re: The Knife of Many Hands
Post by: Quinthane on October 02, 2014, 03:49:47 pm
Grimdark...?


i think that's what i called a +5 Vorpral sword i found playing AD&D when i was 12.
Title: Re: The Knife of Many Hands
Post by: Wilshire on October 02, 2014, 04:02:32 pm
I like the name:P.

Pretty sure there are at least two people on this forum that have tried, or are trying, to get published there. Something about paying per word.
Title: Re: The Knife of Many Hands
Post by: Wic on October 03, 2014, 03:48:30 am
I'm pretty hyped about this, but simultaneously bummed that it explicitly says 'the eve'.

...Still hyped, though.  Some bit of morsel for me to enjoy while I wait for the main course.
Title: Re: The Knife of Many Hands
Post by: Bolivar on October 03, 2014, 02:55:45 pm
Looks like that magazine is really cheap (and cool)
Title: Re: The Knife of Many Hands
Post by: Madness on November 30, 2014, 09:36:21 pm
Confirmed: Part 1 (https://www.facebook.com/grimdarkmagazine/photos/a.247844202074420.1073741828.219904398201734/319047791620727/?type=1&theater) is feature story of Issue #2. Cover art is going to be the character from the story by Julian De Lio (https://www.facebook.com/artofjuliandelio).

Pretty excited that Bakker's getting back into the game :).
Title: Re: The Knife of Many Hands
Post by: Wilshire on December 01, 2014, 02:56:52 pm
Finally, things.
Title: Re: The Knife of Many Hands
Post by: Madness on December 20, 2014, 03:13:53 am
Huzzah - excerpt!
Title: Re: The Knife of Many Hands
Post by: Garet Jax on January 01, 2015, 07:58:54 pm
Be sure to be logged in to your "Grimdark Account" when you try and download the story.  If you are logged in, you save $18 shipping.


Title: Re: The Knife of Many Hands
Post by: Francis Buck on January 01, 2015, 09:18:59 pm
I read it, thought it was decent. It didn't grab me like the False Sun did, but I think that's just because TFS featured what felt like "main characters" (or just important ones to the main series of events), whereas this -- so far -- is just "Tales of Earwa". Not that I have a problem with that, and I suspect there will be a substantial pay-off.

The two-heart stuff is interesting, and it seems we are entering the territory of the Gods seizing people being a more common thing than was perhaps previously realized (obviously it has been speculated on a lot already). Ratakila doesn't strike me as the most interesting character, beyond his berserker-mode thing, but I was very quickly enticed by the Grandmaster character.

I'm trying to imagine a non-TSA reader going into this story. I mean there's a shitload of references all over the place, from the main series itself, to Atrocity Tales, so on and so forth, that must certainly be going way over people's heads. Hell, it felt like some of it went over my head -- I'll definitely do a re-read of the first half when the second comes out, and probably before that even. Ultimately, I can say I'm intrigued and anticipating the second half, but it didn't blow me away or anything.
Title: Re: The Knife of Many Hands
Post by: Wilshire on January 01, 2015, 10:28:10 pm
I'm trying to imagine a non-TSA reader going into this story. I mean there's a shitload of references all over the place, from the main series itself, to Atrocity Tales, so on and so forth, that must certainly be going way over people's heads. Hell, it felt like some of it went over my head -- I'll definitely do a re-read of the first half when the second comes out, and probably before that even. Ultimately, I can say I'm intrigued and anticipating the second half, but it didn't blow me away or anything.

Fully agree. There was a lot going on at the start, setting, flashbacks, layered consciousness, etc. etc. For the uninneciating, it would almost be indecipherable.

I'm excited for the second half, and there is a lot in there already that is worth talking about or looking into.
Title: Re: The Knife of Many Hands
Post by: twooars on January 01, 2015, 10:51:13 pm
Looking at the timeline for 3801 may provide some context for this: http://princeofnothing.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline , but yeah, I agree with FB, it wasn't a good as the False Sun...

edit: hey, I can post now!
Title: Re: The Knife of Many Hands
Post by: MG on January 04, 2015, 06:35:29 am
a couple of things that stuck out to me from the story:

- the physical description of Shinurta seemed decayed in a way similar to Shauriatus description in the TUC ch excerpt.  chanv-consult link?

- the combination of hints about the Scarlett Spires summoning demons and the presence of a character that allegedly becomes possessed by Gilgaol-- is the SS trying to trap Gilgaol?

- the Sranc pits are where men fight men and sranc, no?  if so, perhaps they are breeding extra-violent sranc for the games.  this could lead to other stories where there is a sranc prison break and Carythusal is terrorized

- all the pit, pit, pit stuff and the description of the SS towers as "The famed crimson gleamed black in the light of the Nail, HORNS soaring into the VOID" made me think that Bakker will be doing more parallels between the SS and the Consult.  could Iyokus be capable of deceiving and betraying the Great Ordeal?

- the second hear thing is cool--who was the character of yore who had 2 hearts?  plus this may have something to do with Kellhus ripping out one heart while still being animated by one?  lol, if Seswatha had 2 hearts, he could leave one with the Mandate and then (using super chill longevity spells) hang out in the depths of Ishual and organize the Dunyain experiment from the shadows!  :P

- goddamn i love the construction of the sranc pits with viewers hanging over to see down!

- so when the Hewer is knocked out--is that maybe the same poison used on Nau-Cayuti?  does this imply that NC's wife may have been a witch?  really would like to see her in TUC

- a few favorite bits:
"But the old slaver was already shaking his head. ‘Philosophers,’ he spat. ‘It’s their curse to confuse their skullpan for the sky–bah!"

"hey despise my kind because we fit no hand save our own. Treachery is the very essence of Intellect–they know this the way cattle know wolves. The rapacious Intellect is the treacherous Intellect"
Title: Re: The Knife of Many Hands
Post by: Wilshire on January 04, 2015, 04:40:04 pm
a couple of things that stuck out to me from the story:

- the physical description of Shinurta seemed decayed in a way similar to Shauriatus description in the TUC ch excerpt.  chanv-consult link?
Not so sure about that. They are both to old for their bodies and kept alive by something, but I don't see much more there

- the combination of hints about the Scarlett Spires summoning demons and the presence of a character that allegedly becomes possessed by Gilgaol-- is the SS trying to trap Gilgaol?
I couldn't decide if that was just a turn of phrase, or if he was actually being possessed.
The summoning of demons is a fairly recent construct isn't it? Maybe this was around the time where they first started delving into the forbidden art.

- the Sranc pits are where men fight men and sranc, no?  if so, perhaps they are breeding extra-violent sranc for the games.  this could lead to other stories where there is a sranc prison break and Carythusal is terrorized

No need for extra violent sranc :P. Also, it doesn't seem like they breed them, they capture them and ship them in. Hundreds a week.
Still though, better keep those cages in good condition.

- all the pit, pit, pit stuff and the description of the SS towers as "The famed crimson gleamed black in the light of the Nail, HORNS soaring into the VOID" made me think that Bakker will be doing more parallels between the SS and the Consult.  could Iyokus be capable of deceiving and betraying the Great Ordeal?
They are obviously working on a Topos. Given enough time...
Here there certainly seems to be imagery connect to the Consult. I wonder if Shae was at any point in contact with other schoolmen?

- the second hear thing is cool--who was the character of yore who had 2 hearts?  plus this may have something to do with Kellhus ripping out one heart while still being animated by one?  lol, if Seswatha had 2 hearts, he could leave one with the Mandate and then (using super chill longevity spells) hang out in the depths of Ishual and organize the Dunyain experiment from the shadows!  :P
Wasn't it the alleged nonman-man hybrid, that Anasurimbor woman, who had two hearts?
Maybe the original 2 heart guy referred to in the story, (Wiggle? whatever..) was then an Anasurimbor, with the double-heart trait resurfaced, making all his children part of the line. Distant Kellhus cousins :).

- goddamn i love the construction of the sranc pits with viewers hanging over to see down!
Yeah, like a coliseum but with a semi spherical roof.

- so when the Hewer is knocked out--is that maybe the same poison used on Nau-Cayuti?  does this imply that NC's wife may have been a witch?  really would like to see her in TUC
Witches!

"hey despise my kind because we fit no hand save our own. Treachery is the very essence of Intellect–they know this the way cattle know wolves. The rapacious Intellect is the treacherous Intellect"
Since we also know that War is Intellect, therefore, Treachery is War.... Do they have a god of intellect? Ajokli is treachery, Gilgaol is war...
Title: Re: The Knife of Many Hands
Post by: MG on January 04, 2015, 07:43:19 pm
if they do manage to catch Gilgaol temporarily, maybe that is a spark for starting the Scholastic Wars?
Title: Re: The Knife of Many Hands
Post by: Francis Buck on January 06, 2015, 07:55:41 pm
Stumbled across this description of Cnaiur in TPON, during our very first meeting with him (just after one of the other chieftains has mocked him):

Quote
Cnaiur's ears buzzed. Earth and sky shrank, until the whole world became laughing, yellow-toothed faces. He could feel it stir within him, his second soul, the one that blotted the sun and painted the earth with blood. Their laughter faltered before his menace. His glare struck even the smirks from their faces.

I thought it was worth pointing out.
Title: Re: The Knife of Many Hands [Spoilers]
Post by: Garet Jax on January 23, 2015, 09:45:51 pm
It was really nice to read some Bakker again.
Title: Re: The Knife of Many Hands [Spoilers]
Post by: Aural on January 24, 2015, 10:15:50 am
It would probably be a good idea for those who have read the issue to try to review it on Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/Grimdark-Magazine-Issue-Scott-Bakker-ebook/dp/B00RO9GRDE) since it only has one review compared to five for the first issue which featured stories from Mark Lawrence and Adrian Tchaikovsky. We don’t want to give the impression that no one has read the “Bakker issue.”
Title: Re: The Knife of Many Hands [Spoilers]
Post by: Garet Jax on January 24, 2015, 12:51:58 pm
It would probably be a good idea for those who have read the issue to try to review it on Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/Grimdark-Magazine-Issue-Scott-Bakker-ebook/dp/B00RO9GRDE) since it only has one review compared to five for the first issue which featured stories from Mark Lawrence and Adrian Tchaikovsky. We don’t want to give the impression that no one has read the “Bakker issue.”

Great idea!  On my way to do just that.
Title: Re: The Knife of Many Hands [Spoilers]
Post by: Madness on January 24, 2015, 04:12:05 pm
Lol - are you Ryan, GJ?
Title: Re: The Knife of Many Hands [Spoilers]
Post by: Aural on January 25, 2015, 08:16:32 am
Lol - are you Ryan, GJ?

I think he was being funny?
Title: Re: The Knife of Many Hands [Spoilers]
Post by: Garet Jax on January 25, 2015, 01:47:43 pm
Lol - are you Ryan, GJ?

I think he was being funny?


No sirs.  I wasn't trying to be funny, it is actually a great idea, Akkeägni, I just didn't get around to doing it yesterday.


Not Ryan  8)
Title: Re: The Knife of Many Hands [Spoilers]
Post by: Raizen on January 28, 2015, 06:54:54 pm
I'm Ryan, I was doing my best to entertain and still give the issue a positive review.  I rather enjoyed it.
Title: Re: The Knife of Many Hands [Spoilers]
Post by: Madness on January 28, 2015, 07:21:45 pm
Lol - good job, Raizen. I was joking with GJ because the other night we were asking him about his real name :P.

But I'm going to take my own advice to him and write a review now too.
Title: Re: The Knife of Many Hands [Spoilers]
Post by: Francis Buck on March 31, 2015, 12:02:07 am
So anyone have some opinions on the second half? Thoughts on what actually went down during the blackout in the Scarlet Spires? At first I thought Shinurta was using a Cant of Compulsion on Ratakila at the end, but it doesn't seem nearly that simple. Between the Daimos, and the implication of a pit (capital P?) opening beneath Rata, as well as the strange flashbacks throughout, it seemed as though they were trying to perhaps control the Incarnal...or something. I really have no idea.
Title: Re: The Knife of Many Hands [Spoilers]
Post by: Aural on April 01, 2015, 11:05:02 pm
Quote
For them, she was a place where the fires of damnation licked as a whore's tongue.

So... what the fuck does the above line mean?

eta: ah... sorry, I thought it said "licked a whore's tongue" when it's "licked as a whore's tongue".

eta2: it still makes no sense.
Title: Re: The Knife of Many Hands [Spoilers]
Post by: H on April 02, 2015, 10:52:35 am
Don't have the whole story with me to check the context, but I believe it could that he is saying that in this place, the damning fire's caress is that of a whore's tongue.

Perhaps rephrased as, here damnation takes it's physical form not as fire but as the caress of wonton sexuality.  That is a pretty loaded analogy but I don't have the time to unpack all of it now.

Or something like that.  Smarter people can probably come up with some better interpretations. 
Title: Re: The Knife of Many Hands [Spoilers]
Post by: Madness on April 02, 2015, 12:40:52 pm
Uh - I need to rethink what I know about this Atrocity Tale entirely because I'm not sure what I thought was missing from KOMH is, in fact, missing. It deserves a closer reading by me. I'm committing lapses recently.

Quote
For them, she was a place where the fires of damnation licked as a whore's tongue.

To parse in context, For them [the pirate crew of the Momas Gale], she [Carythusal] was a place where the fires of damnation licked as a whore's tongue [where sins damning you are as pleasures to be had].

That's my take, anyhow.

I am super fallible.
Title: Re: The Knife of Many Hands [Spoilers]
Post by: Aural on April 02, 2015, 12:52:29 pm
That's what I thought, but I'm still not sure how the fires of damnation (the punishment) are analogous to a 'whore's tongue' in Carythusal. Seems to me that Bakker is bending over backwards to insert the word whore in everything.
Title: Re: The Knife of Many Hands [Spoilers]
Post by: Madness on April 02, 2015, 01:34:56 pm
Hmm... fairly sure that pirates, fictive or otherwise, like sex for money.

In context, it seems more like that Bakker is suggesting a couple things. Carythusal is like Vegas of the Three-Seas. The Pirates of the Momas Gale are Damned and don't care. So things that might previously seem like Damnable sins to them are instead simply viewed by them as more pleasures.
Title: Re: The Knife of Many Hands [Spoilers]
Post by: Aural on April 02, 2015, 01:40:20 pm
Quote
The Pirates of the Momas Gale are Damned and don't care. So things that might previously seem like Damnable sins to them are instead simply viewed by them as more pleasures.

I thought Bakker was cryptically talking about the Consult?

Quote
The crew of the Momus Gale had no doubt that their souls lay beyond reprieve, and so they sucked as violently as they could from the teat of brief life. They were Takers in every way, and woe to those with wares to be taken.

Maybe the Consult or the No-God are actually collecting souls as some have suggested.
Title: Re: The Knife of Many Hands [Spoilers]
Post by: H on April 02, 2015, 03:16:27 pm
That's what I thought, but I'm still not sure how the fires of damnation (the punishment) are analogous to a 'whore's tongue' in Carythusal. Seems to me that Bakker is bending over backwards to insert the word whore in everything.

Well, he brings about an interesting parallel, in that damnation in the afterlife is torment, yet damnable acts in life are often pleasurable.
Title: Re: The Knife of Many Hands [Spoilers]
Post by: MG on August 09, 2015, 07:49:31 pm
Quote
The Pirates of the Momas Gale are Damned and don't care. So things that might previously seem like Damnable sins to them are instead simply viewed by them as more pleasures.

I thought Bakker was cryptically talking about the Consult?

Quote
The crew of the Momus Gale had no doubt that their souls lay beyond reprieve, and so they sucked as violently as they could from the teat of brief life. They were Takers in every way, and woe to those with wares to be taken.

Maybe the Consult or the No-God are actually collecting souls as some have suggested.
Quote
The Pirates of the Momas Gale are Damned and don't care. So things that might previously seem like Damnable sins to them are instead simply viewed by them as more pleasures.

I thought Bakker was cryptically talking about the Consult?

Quote
The crew of the Momus Gale had no doubt that their souls lay beyond reprieve, and so they sucked as violently as they could from the teat of brief life. They were Takers in every way, and woe to those with wares to be taken.

Maybe the Consult or the No-God are actually collecting souls as some have suggested.

hated by Yatwer!
Title: Re: The Knife of Many Hands [Spoilers]
Post by: H on May 04, 2016, 11:42:47 am
So, while I wait for TGO, I am unwilling to pollute my readerly pallet with things other than Bakker, to facilitate a quicker and better read of it when I do get it.  This means all I have to read are Atrocity Tales.  So, in the spirit of The Slog, I am going to look at Knife and see what I see.

Part 1 for today:

Quote
They could sense it in him even then, the Incarnal, the patter of some unseen pulse, beating as quickly as murder

I do believe this is our first introduction into what the Incarnal is.

Quote
But the man was anything but–Eryelk could see it.
All sorcerers bore the Mark of their sin.

So, Eryelk is one of the Few, which is pretty interesting.

Quote
He had stood as he always stood in the blood-drenched aftermath of the Incarnal, alone, surrounded by the pulped wreckage of what had once been living.

A hint at the the Incarnal is...

Quote
‘It is my other face.’

So, the Incarnal is the manifestation of his second heart, the mask that heart's face?

Quote
‘You speak of the necessity of deceit,’ Eryelk scoffed. ‘I speak of truth.’
As old as Ancient Shir, they said. The Sranc Pits, a ziggurat gutted for the sake of death.
Boma-boma-boma-boma...
The rat’s whiskers twitched in surprise.
Truth?’ he snapped. ‘Oh... you mean lies that win.’
They knew him not at all, the Holca realized–or nothing of the Incarnal, at least.

Seemingly my above interpretation seems correct.  The Incarnal though isn't a second face, really, but rather the true face.  Actually, I take that back, I think what he means is that the mask does not conceal, but rather reveals.

Quote
‘The rat that burns other rats, that would rule over other rats, become tyrant of the rat nation...’
His voice–his hatred–had become as a grinding mill.
Boma-boma-boma-boma...
‘Silence, cur!’
Boma-boma-boma-boma...
‘...that would worshipped as the Rat of Rats...’

I wonder if this is the Incarnal talking here?  He certainly mocks the Spire's intentions, reading them correctly too.

Quote
‘Uh! Even the mask reeks.’
‘Aye. Sulphur...’
Feminine voices, young and old.
‘Sorcery?’
‘That is why we did what we did.’


So, they did know of the Incarnal, at least, the higher-ups did...

Quote
The carriage sat upon black-lacquered yokes long enough for some twenty or more bearers, but possessing only twelve, slaves that in no way resembled slaves, armed and armoured as they were.

3801 is the year that the Scarlet Spires "create" the Javreh, this story shows why then really.

Quote
No man craved both wisdom and peril as he did. His was an upside-down soul, the Sranc slaver insisted, one that, combined with a Holca frame, made him as rare as nimil. “If only you had will, boy, discipline, the whole Three Seas would tremble!”

I don't think I was alone in thinking that the concept of the upside-down soul was more profound than it really is.  I think in actuality it is simply a soul who is truly a collection of opposite and seemingly incongruous motivations.

Quote
‘So it’s true. You do not recall what you do, when Gilgaöl seizes your soul.’

Considering how active the Gods are in the AE, I think before the Slog I would have doubted that Gilgaöl was actually involved, but now I kind of do believe it.

Quote
And with that, the floors seemed to plummet, dissolve into a Pit more profound than any he had mastered.

This must be the Diamos, right?  Opening the Pit is opening a way for a ciphrang to influence Eryelk?
Title: Re: The Knife of Many Hands [Spoilers]
Post by: H on May 06, 2016, 12:09:52 pm
Part 2:

Quote
They had stained him, somehow, polluted him with their wicked craft–he could feel it!

Feels it in his second heart, I am guessing?

Quote
So they described the Carythusal they needed to balm their own blistered hearts, or to stitch the mercurial rifts that arose between them. For them, she was a place where the fires of damnation licked as a whore’s tongue, anything but the gleaming marvel that Stitti had described.

Even with the debate above, I still like this line.  How the "consequences" of damnable acts is so very different in life than in death.

Quote
Carythusal was simply what came after, a civilization that had run out of blank scroll, and so
began to overwrite what was written. It was a place where anything was allowed so long as it did not impede commerce, where aimlessness was not a crime...

Interesting line here, considering how "the darkness that comes before" guides the world in the books.  Here, we are presented with the idea that Carythusal rewrites that, that it seeks to be new, guided by the now.

Quote
‘Shinurta claimed that Nagamezer survived,’ Eryelk amended.
‘He didn’t, but there’s no way Shinurta could admit as much. As far as the city is concerned, Nagamezer has to be alive, otherwise the Spires would be releasing someone who had murdered one of their own.’

I think Shinurta was being kind of cheeky and was implying that they know full well where Nagamezer is, damned as he would be.

Quote
Shinurta cackled in his soul’s eye. Claws combed the ginger haze across his abdomen.
His stomach lurched. His second heart flexed into a brandished fist.

So, Shinurta inhabits he second heart's soul?  Or a ciphrang?  Or both?

Quote
The barbarian blinked, saw Shinurta hunched, a greased grotesquerie toiling over his loins. The world kicked and yanked about chains and manacles–
What did they do to him?

It seems as if Shinurta is the ciphrang, at least, somewhat through these descriptions.

Quote
Chained to a thread above Hell. Choking sulphur. Bolting terror. Something horrid convolving about his hips, climbing, mounting...

His second soul was bound to the Pit?

Quote
Screaming. Thrashing. Bestial glimpses of spider eyes and puckered cunnies.

This would seem to be the result of the ciphrang inhabiting him.

Quote
Shinurta had no need to curse him, he realized. He need only trust the curse that was his blood. He need only know  him to transform him into a knife for yet another hand...

The curse of being twin-souled?
Title: Re: The Knife of Many Hands [Spoilers]
Post by: Hirtius/Pansa on September 12, 2016, 07:19:21 pm
I'm super late on this train. Apologies. 

Sarothesser IX is the King of High Ainon in this short story. I assume he was killed at the end there, which then would make Prince Horziah the Horziah III who is the last reigning King. Really curious about some more details because there is supposedly a battle between a royalist army and Spires-aligned army which results in the defeat of Horziah. Not surprising, he seems like a real ditz. Also interesting because this short story seems to present a full coup against the Royal House of Sarothesser but we know for a fact that there is more Royalist/Spires conflict incoming.

The Glossary states that the Scholastic Wars were from 3796¨-3818, so the Scholastic War has been going on for at least 5 years at the point of this story. Clearly not in High Ainon because things seem pretty calm, if a bit tense.

Cool that Sranc are such a hot commodity in High Ainon that they have Ainoni trading depots in Thunyerus and profitable relationships with certain tribes. Seem like antique precursors to the Scalpoi.
Title: Re: The Knife of Many Hands [Spoilers]
Post by: Wilshire on September 12, 2016, 07:43:00 pm
I'm super late on this train. Apologies. 

I finished it after I got my Anthology backer rewards from the GdM kickstarter, about a month ago lol.

I'm sure unsure of whats happening, specifically. Generally it seems the spires used our protagonist to murder the King. But what did they actually do to him.

Seems like a mixture of skin-spies and sranc imagery to me, which makes be think Consult, not Spires. In addition, it was a trigger that was applied through sexual congress. Remember who ends up on the throne, a skin-spy. I get the feels that the Consult were involved from here on out, if not farther back.
Title: Re: The Knife of Many Hands [Spoilers]
Post by: Hirtius/Pansa on September 12, 2016, 08:38:16 pm
Hmm.  I feel like the Consult would be incentivized to make sure the Shrial forces succeed, no? Anything to destroy the Mandate and remove as many of the Few as possible. Having a major school control High Ainon implicitly helps the Mandate maybe—at least during the war. Drawing away resources that the Shrial forces would use to fight the Mandate to commit to an Ainon front, they were apparently besieging Atyersus for a few years.  What do the Consult have to gain by giving the Scarlet Spires more institutional power?

Thought I agree with MG's sentiment that the line about the physical fortress of Kiz 'rearing into the void, the horns' or some such, immediately recalls Golgotterath. Also Achamian's line about Gologotterath and the Scarlet Spires as being the only places in the world more heartless than Atyersus.

Title: Re: The Knife of Many Hands [Spoilers]
Post by: Wilshire on September 12, 2016, 09:40:22 pm
Not sure. Maybe they have had trouble replacing that particular throne/faction?  Having a skin-spy as 'king' is a reasonable goal. Also, the Spires hate the Mandate, and mock them fervently. Having the spires in a controlling position is beneficial in keeping the image of the Mandate in shambles.

I don't really know. The 'magics' involved just seemed really inchoroi-y to me. Cants of Compulsions seem to be pretty clean and efficient at this type of thing - not sure why SS would want to go through this type of sexually-triggered-mind-control-rape stuff.
Title: Re: The Knife of Many Hands [Spoilers]
Post by: H on September 13, 2016, 01:56:52 pm
Yeah, I think that an elevated Scarlet Spires is a definite boon against the Mandate, one the Consult certainly wouldn't be against, since it exists and perpetuates without them even have to manipulate anything.

However, Akka does at one point remark that even the Mandate was attacked during the Scholastic War, "Atyersus itself had been besieged for seven years."  It would certainly seem more likely that, as H/P says, the Consult might well have been behind the War itself.  Perhaps Ekyannus XIV was a skin-spy?

I would guess that as the fighting started, the Scarlet Spires realized they could militarize somewhat secretly and that the throne was ripe for a coup.  It certainly seems they were right, as events played out.  I think their gambit was that if their school was to survive (and prosper) that they needed basically a whole nation worth of resources and so set out to get it.
Title: Re: The Knife of Many Hands [Spoilers]
Post by: Wilshire on September 13, 2016, 02:32:01 pm
But what did they actually do to him.
Is there any general consensus on that? That the spires summoned some lesser-ciphrang-succubus-equivalent to fuck him crazy, then they layered in some Cants of Compulsion just in case that didn't work?

Any hints why or what the ciphrang-demon thing was doing?

It all just seems really strange to me. These flashbacks seem to be similar to what Esmi was experiencing before Kellhus whelmed her, which to me implies that CoCs were being used. No reason that simple CoCs can't just be the SS. Maybe the demon thing was all just a construct of the CoC, an illusion, the effect being that every time he has sex he goes into a blind murderous rage?
Title: Re: The Knife of Many Hands [Spoilers]
Post by: H on September 13, 2016, 03:08:10 pm
Wait, isn't the whole point of what the Spires do to him specifically to have Cants of Compulsion not show upon him?  In other words, he doesn't have any Cants put upon him, because that is exactly what they would be looking for.

No, I think it goes back to his "twin-heartedness" which somehow allows Shinurta to "inhabit" him.  Presumably by overriding, or somehow imitating, the way in which Gilgaöl seizes his soul.  Or using a Ciphrang to work through Eryelk the same way Gilgaöl would.  In other words, Eryelk is somehow, at times of great passion, an open door to the Outside.  Shinurta found a way to walk through that door himself or through a Ciphrang agent.