The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => General Earwa => Topic started by: EkyannusIII on September 11, 2014, 03:44:56 pm

Title: The Dūnyain
Post by: EkyannusIII on September 11, 2014, 03:44:56 pm
"Who are the Dunyain?"

Men.
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: The Sharmat on September 11, 2014, 08:47:12 pm
I'd argue that they're most of the way towards being a new hominid species actually. They demonstrate more genetic incompatibility with Homo sapiens than a lot of other organisms considered separate species show for each other.
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: geoint on October 21, 2014, 05:44:53 am
I'd argue that they're most of the way towards being a new hominid species actually. They demonstrate more genetic incompatibility with Homo sapiens than a lot of other organisms considered separate species show for each other.

You are referring to all of Kellhus' other... attempted baby mommas who all died/failed to produce offspring?
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: Wilshire on October 21, 2014, 12:24:56 pm
I'd argue that they're most of the way towards being a new hominid species actually. They demonstrate more genetic incompatibility with Homo sapiens than a lot of other organisms considered separate species show for each other.

You are referring to all of Kellhus' other... attempted baby mommas who all died/failed to produce offspring?
And Moenghus, yes.
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: MG on October 21, 2014, 10:23:24 pm
I'd argue that they're most of the way towards being a new hominid species actually. They demonstrate more genetic incompatibility with Homo sapiens than a lot of other organisms considered separate species show for each other.

You are referring to all of Kellhus' other... attempted baby mommas who all died/failed to produce offspring?

So says the text!  Could it be that Kellhus is having all kinds of kids in secret?????  And Moenghus too!  All this business about a seed being too strong to bear, a ruse!
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: MG on December 31, 2014, 08:22:40 pm
The Dunyain are the people with enough patience to wait for the next goddamn book.
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: locke on January 03, 2015, 08:07:07 am
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunya

Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: Francis Buck on January 05, 2015, 11:27:46 pm
Interesting, though I still think at least initially that the word came from Dśnedain.
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: Aural on January 05, 2015, 11:46:03 pm
Solitary God = Absolute.

The Dūnyain have been inadvertently worshiping the Fanim God all along.
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: EkyannusIII on January 06, 2015, 03:46:34 pm
"Dūnyain" always struck me as coming from "Dune" with some extra syllables thrown in to make it sound non-Western.
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: The Sharmat on February 03, 2015, 08:22:41 am
Interesting, though I still think at least initially that the word came from Dśnedain.
This was my thought as well. Kellhus is a terrible twisted version of Aragorn, in a way.

Solitary God = Absolute.

The Dūnyain have been inadvertently worshiping the Fanim God all along.
Wouldn't it be more correct to say the Fanim have been worshiping the Dunyain conception of the Absolute inadvertently? The Dunyain are older than the Fanim.

And Moenghus, yes.
Cnaiur's mother must have been a truly rare woman. Moenghus fathered a seemingly healthy son by her, though he was long gone by the time it was born, and likely didn't even know she was pregnant. Of course then Cnaiur's mother and the child were killed for being contaminated by Moenghus.
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: Seökti on February 04, 2015, 05:50:51 am
How about the Dunyain are keepers of the Kelmomian prophecy?  Set us to ensure both the survival of the Anasaurimbor line and that the harbinger of the Second Apocalypse would be capable in every way possible.  This brings up an interesting question: why was Moenghus exiled to begin with??
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: The Sharmat on February 04, 2015, 05:55:45 am
We really don't know. It's pretty unlikely Kellhus was telling the true story when he explained it to Cnaiur.
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: locke on February 04, 2015, 08:51:23 pm
We don't even know if moe was exiled to begin with.
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: Aural on February 04, 2015, 09:51:30 pm
How about the Dunyain are keepers of the Kelmomian prophecy?  Set us to ensure both the survival of the Anasaurimbor line and that the harbinger of the Second Apocalypse would be capable in every way possible.  This brings up an interesting question: why was Moenghus exiled to begin with??

I think they’re the “keepers of the Celmomian prophecy,” but without actually knowing it.
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: MG on February 06, 2015, 04:21:12 pm
We don't even know if moe was exiled to begin with.

we don't even know if it was an exile!  or anything much about them at all!  kellhus lies with his mouth and could inadvertently be deceiving the reader with his inner monologue if he has been lied to by the Dunyain -- i know it would be a dumb story if nothing about it is reliable, but i think it would be quite interesting revelation if kellhus, the Great Manipulator, finds out that his most basic assumptions are flawed
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: Wilshire on February 06, 2015, 04:41:19 pm
Agreed, but perhaps a conversation to continue in MiaLLWL thread ;).
http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=406.msg1519#msg1519
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: MG on February 06, 2015, 07:01:10 pm
Agreed, but perhaps a conversation to continue in MiaLLWL thread ;).

abpactcimt?
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: Wilshire on February 06, 2015, 07:45:19 pm
I figured MiaLLWL would be parseable to those involved in the conversation. abpctcimt might have been a stretch ;)
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: MG on February 06, 2015, 09:10:11 pm
ifmwbpttiitcamhbas - totally agree
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: Seökti on February 07, 2015, 01:20:56 pm
In suggesting that the Dunyain were conceived of to create someone capable of fulfilling the Kelmomian Prophecies I'm attempting to pull together some loose ends and several narrative threads. 

First, why did the Dunyain lie to their antecedants about sorcery when they surely knew it was around and not a lie? It goes well against their teachings to hide this knowledge, although it is unlikely the forgetting of sorcery by the Dunyain was not deliberate.  Perhaps it was necessary that the Harbinger discover sorcery for himself. 

Second, why did Moenghus leave or get exiled or whatever? Certainly we know he sends for not just another Dunyain but his son is specific, an Anasurimbor, in order to help him solve the riddle of the skin spies, but Kellhus knows truths Moenghus has yet to accept: the reality of damnation and the true goals of the Consult. 

Third, the glossary from TTT offers a definition of Dunyain that suggests their goal is the creation of a 'self-moving soul' through generations of training and breeding.  This already suggests they already had a reason to want to create this person, so it is possible that their desire to create this person would not have been coincidental to the Kelmomian prophecies but driven by it.  The Kelmomian Prophecies as the Dunyain attempt to move beyond 'the circle of before and after'. 

Finally, their fastness being in Ishual suggests a knowledge of the High Kings secrets, secrets which likely only a handful of souls knew.  Perhaps Ishual was built for the Dunyain, or the Dunyain were concieved of by Seswatha or someone close to him in hopes of one day creating someone capable of ridding the world of the consult.  Perhaps the prophecy itself was based on this plan to create the Dunyain.

Just an idea anyway.
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: Simas Polchias on February 10, 2015, 12:11:31 am
First, why did the Dunyain lie to their antecedants about sorcery when they surely knew it was around and not a lie?
1) If there are any Cants to detect Marks on a long-range distance, using sorcery is a dangerous thing for a cult, trying to hide from the world gone mad. Risk of detection can outweight the powers of the sorcery.
2) Using Plato's "Republic" as a hint, before his quest Kellhus was not of the pragmas (philosophers-kings), but of the guardians of the good city. I bet they had a pragma of Gnosis, skulking somewhere in the Thousand Thousand Halls.
3) Dunyain could be quite right in discarding the sorcery. They wanted to hack reality with a nice and elegant move, but not to mutilate it, producing insane amount of T.D.T.C.B. Who knows, may be they even had sorcerer followers before First Apocalypse and found sorcery totally irrelevant and useless for their purpose?
4) Dunyain are people even with their nurtured skills of governing their nature. They simply forgot. Even if they had sorcerers in their refuging crowd, they had no proper school to pursue it's reproduction or population large enough to have a steady supply of the Few to reproduce skills from lonely master to lonely pupil. Remember, how Akka taught Kellhus thing dunyain didn't happen to use because of their peculiar lifestyle? Also, two thousand years ago they were... much more human-like, for they hadn't fully elaborated their ideas. That why they could make a mistake here.
5) Deus ex machina. Let it be Cet'Ingira and cants of compulsion, for I love them so badly. Yep, simple is that. Cunuroi, who opened the Arc, now cultivates a human garden, growing a twisted social culture in Ishual. Or, maybe, he's making people to shut it again, who knows. He's a insane erratic after all.
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: MG on February 11, 2015, 05:20:55 am
"Deus ex machina. Let it be Cet'Ingira and cants of compulsion, for I love them so badly. Yep, simple is that. Cunuroi, who opened the Arc, now cultivates a human garden, growing a twisted social culture in Ishual. Or, maybe, he's making people to shut it again, who knows. He's a insane erratic after all."

woah that's cool -- so Mek was strolling about his garden when he ran into Kellhus?  i could see something like this happening, he would be able to spy on them from a distance, perhaps direct a clan of sranc to the right place whenever he wanted them to send one of their own into the world
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: Simas Polchias on February 11, 2015, 10:52:51 pm
woah that's cool -- so Mek was strolling about his garden when he ran into Kellhus?  i could see something like this happening, he would be able to spy on them from a distance, perhaps direct a clan of sranc to the right place whenever he wanted them to send one of their own into the world
He's a Quya, so there is always a possibility for consealment cants and a very close touch. Also Ishual bastion may be a backdoor of a cunuroi mansionette and thus from cunuroi perspective - a nice roof garden.
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: Seökti on February 15, 2015, 12:16:57 pm
@Simas:

All of the possibilities you lay out for explaining the Dunyain omission of the reality of Sorcery suggests a sort of carelessness I'm unlikely to attribute to the Dunyain.  When Kellhus discovers Sorcery he begins to question everything the Dunyain have taught him, because the Dunyain teach a way of thinking which endlessly revises metaphysical and core truths such as the reality of sin and damnation, the simple existence of hell and 'the Mark', the hidden nature of the onta.

It seems far more likely that the Dunyain were created to produce a single event that would change the course of the world: the creation of the event that is Anasurimbor Kellhus, "a soul utterly transparent to the Logos", a soul which lay outside of the cycle of causation like the Logos which could account for all that preceeded. 

Like Kellhus is also a White-Luck Warrior.
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: Simas Polchias on February 15, 2015, 02:50:07 pm
All of the possibilities you lay out for explaining the Dunyain omission of the reality of Sorcery suggests a sort of carelessness I'm unlikely to attribute to the Dunyain.
Not carelessness, just fallibility. I doubt they are error-free people even with their 2000-yeas gym of social and physical exercises. Btw, it's a most cruel problem of every fallible culture, who recognized such drawback and are trying to perfect itself. Before, it's limited only by ignorance. After, the new limit is about sacrificing a great deal for the sake of awareness. Total fallibility hardly changes, but the price of conclusive error is rising.

because the Dunyain teach a way of thinking which endlessly revises metaphysical and core truths such as the reality of sin and damnation, the simple existence of hell and 'the Mark', the hidden nature of the onta..
These monks will be lucky if sorcery is closer to the root of reality than to reality's redundance.
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: Wilshire on February 15, 2015, 07:38:13 pm
Seökti, remember that the Dunyain from the first apocalypse where far more human the the Dunyain we know of now. They were no less likely to succumb  to shortsightedness and error than you or I.

The Dunyain today could be as ignorant of the Darkness that came before them, even as they were the ones that created it.
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: Seökti on February 15, 2015, 11:11:55 pm
The Dunyain today could be as ignorant of the Darkness that came before them, even as they were the ones that created it.

This is why I believe the Celmomian Prophecy could be a Dunyain plot, the beginning of an attempt to reach beyond the Empirical Priority Principle and produce a "self-moving soul".  This explains how the Dunyain came to find Ishual - the hidden fastness of the Anasurimbor line - as either Celmomas or Seswatha or both would have been involved.

The proximity of the establishing of the Dunyain and the first apocalypse also makes it unlikely that they simply didn't know about sorcery, and their founding principles suggest that they would only omit the existence of sorcery intentionally, an omission which on the surface seems to contradict their mission of grasping all that comes before.
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: The Sharmat on February 16, 2015, 01:01:52 am
The modern Dunyain eschew history as much as their ancestors eschew sorcery.

They don't seek to grasp what comes before so much as to be removed from it entirely.
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: Wilshire on February 16, 2015, 05:55:42 pm
They don't seek to grasp what comes before so much as to be removed from it entirely.
I disagree. In order to come before all, they must grasp all that came before them.

The Dunyain today could be as ignorant of the Darkness that came before them, even as they were the ones that created it.

This is why I believe the Celmomian Prophecy could be a Dunyain plot, the beginning of an attempt to reach beyond the Empirical Priority Principle and produce a "self-moving soul".  This explains how the Dunyain came to find Ishual - the hidden fastness of the Anasurimbor line - as either Celmomas or Seswatha or both would have been involved.
This makes more sense to me. I could accept this as a possibility.

The proximity of the establishing of the Dunyain and the first apocalypse also makes it unlikely that they simply didn't know about sorcery, and their founding principles suggest that they would only omit the existence of sorcery intentionally, an omission which on the surface seems to contradict their mission of grasping all that comes before.
They certainly knew of sorcery, but destroyed all records of it. Perhaps, yes, they planned to rediscover it later when the other, more mundane principles had been conquered.
If you look at 'becoming a self-moving soul' as a complex equation with many, many variables, in order to solve it they would need to make some assumptions and remove some variables. The gambit to get rid of history and sorcery, I believe, was just a starting point. A way to come up with solutions to their equations before adding in more variables that, initially, would have made it unsolvable.

Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: MG on February 16, 2015, 08:20:17 pm
@Simas:

All of the possibilities you lay out for explaining the Dunyain omission of the reality of Sorcery suggests a sort of carelessness I'm unlikely to attribute to the Dunyain.  When Kellhus discovers Sorcery he begins to question everything the Dunyain have taught him, because the Dunyain teach a way of thinking which endlessly revises metaphysical and core truths such as the reality of sin and damnation, the simple existence of hell and 'the Mark', the hidden nature of the onta.

It seems far more likely that the Dunyain were created to produce a single event that would change the course of the world: the creation of the event that is Anasurimbor Kellhus, "a soul utterly transparent to the Logos", a soul which lay outside of the cycle of causation like the Logos which could account for all that preceeded. 

Like Kellhus is also a White-Luck Warrior.


i agree--i think the Dunyain probably do know about sorcery but were interested in keeping Kellhus in the dark.  i'm betting that whatever the grand scheme is, it involves making a top-shelf, cutting edge, ps7, iphone8, T-9000 model Dunyain into an unsuspecting tool ... he *thinks* he's the first human to wield the metagnosis, etc
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: Simas Polchias on February 16, 2015, 11:37:49 pm
Perhaps, yes, they planned to rediscover it later when the other, more mundane principles had been conquered.
I like this idea, Wilshire. It somehow sticks with that overall duniyain image of calm & long-term designers.
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: The Sharmat on February 17, 2015, 01:41:25 am
They don't seek to grasp what comes before so much as to be removed from it entirely.
I disagree. In order to come before all, they must grasp all that came before them.
That's fine. You can reasonably argue this is a flaw in Dunyain philosophy. Nonetheless, it appears to be the route they took. Unless we assume a vast ancient Dunyain conspiracy that neither Kellhus and Moenghus were privy to in the least and never even speculated about.

Also it's weird that they're so freaked out by Moenghus' sorcery if they knew about it all along.
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: Wic on February 17, 2015, 03:58:35 am
The goal of Dunyain philosophy is a manipulation of the self, that it becomes capable of moving through the world purely under it's own volition.  Manipulation of circumstance is a secondary effect, and a lust for power the way Man would consider it isn't a quality they seem to have.

Remember how surprised Kell was to see how mundane people wore a second face, lying to themselves.  He wasn't really expecting this particular set of circumstances, but seized on it with the full weight of his focus and perception.
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: locke on February 17, 2015, 04:10:21 am


The goal of Dunyain philosophy is a manipulation of the self, that it becomes capable of moving through the world purely under it's own volition.  Manipulation of circumstance is a secondary effect, and a lust for power the way Man would consider it isn't a quality they seem to have.

Remember how surprised Kell was to see how mundane people wore a second face, lying to themselves.  He wasn't really expecting this particular set of circumstances, but seized on it with the full weight of his focus and perception.

Seizing with the full weight of his focus and perception indicates a profound and bone deep lust for power kellhus is apparently blind to in himself.

Which becomes pretty explicit when kellhus gazes on the nansurium and decides he's going to seize the whole world.  His lust for power far outstrips conphas or any other character.
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: The Sharmat on February 17, 2015, 05:09:41 am
Kellhus's motives throughout the first trilogy are fairly mysterious despite chapters from his point of view.

I mean when first reading "I will dwell in my father's house." in the prologue, did anyone here really assume 'Oh he's going to kill his dad.'

Kellhus wants SOMETHING, but I'm not sure what it is.
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: Wilshire on February 17, 2015, 06:21:51 am
Honestly, I don't think he was much of a mystery. He is pretty straight Dunyain in PoN.

Pretty clear that in order to come before, you can't be preceded by anyone. In order to do that, he had to seize everything. Every person, ever philosophy, magic, every major player including the Consult, and even the only dunyain in play. He's a bit more mysterious now, but what remains, assuming he is still substantially Dunyain, he must seize the rest of humanity, the Nonmen, and the gods themselves.
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: The Sharmat on February 17, 2015, 12:46:01 pm
So you believe his intent from the start was to do what the Pragma (presumably) sent him to do and kill Moenghus? I got the impression that was a decision he made fairly late in the game.
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: Wilshire on February 17, 2015, 01:32:10 pm
I think you're right with that. Like you said, he never actually says that he wants to kill his father until later in the book... So maybe he's a bit human, but still mostly Dunyain for the majority of PoN.
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: locke on February 17, 2015, 03:26:14 pm
It's pretty clear cnaiur wants to kill moenghus so kellhus aligns his stated goals to secure his cooperation.  Prior to discovery of sorcery he never considered it at least.
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: Wic on February 17, 2015, 03:37:33 pm
Seizing with the full weight of his focus and perception indicates a profound and bone deep lust for power kellhus is apparently blind to in himself.

Which becomes pretty explicit when kellhus gazes on the nansurium and decides he's going to seize the whole world.  His lust for power far outstrips conphas or any other character.
IIRC, he surmised that the only way to get to his father, who had been in the World for 30 years and held untold power, was to wield the Holy War.  Not until the visions on the circumfix did he truly seek to control the Three Seas (which is arguably towards a goal we are unaware of, so again not necessarily about power).
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: The Sharmat on February 17, 2015, 04:31:08 pm
I think you're right with that. Like you said, he never actually says that he wants to kill his father until later in the book... So maybe he's a bit human, but still mostly Dunyain for the majority of PoN.
I think Kellhus is more human than he cares to admit, but not for that particular reason. I mean, is a Dunyain at all trustworthy, even to other Dunyain? Once one is removed from the Pragma's power and observation...why should any Dunyain do what they say?

Any Dunyain or half-Dunyain we've seen meet in the book leads to an inevitable power struggle. Even if Kellhus were the purest Dunyain possible, would anything different have happened, in regards to his loyalty to his initial mission and the fate of Moenghus?
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: Wilshire on February 17, 2015, 07:02:46 pm
Different? Probably not. All the Dunyain we have seen have conflict with the others, half-breeds included.

In Ishual, the Pragma/ruling-cast keeps that conflict inwardly focused. Without that constant presence to keep them focused, the Dunyain would tear themselves apart.... Maybe this is what happened? The Elders truly did go into the Thousand Thousand Halls to die, and the ensuing power vacuum caused a rift that could not be mended.
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: locke on February 18, 2015, 03:50:06 pm
Seizing with the full weight of his focus and perception indicates a profound and bone deep lust for power kellhus is apparently blind to in himself.

Which becomes pretty explicit when kellhus gazes on the nansurium and decides he's going to seize the whole world.  His lust for power far outstrips conphas or any other character.
IIRC, he surmised that the only way to get to his father, who had been in the World for 30 years and held untold power, was to wield the Holy War.  Not until the visions on the circumfix did he truly seek to control the Three Seas (which is arguably towards a goal we are unaware of, so again not necessarily about power).
Just because he's deceived by his own rationalizations doesn't make his uncontrollable lust for power go away.

I mean he's like a sranc of souls, kellhus never encounters a soul without forcibly violating said soul, raping soul after soul indiscriminately and without care for the cumulative effect of his atrocities. He's driven to seize violate and dominate.  He's contrasted to cnaiur for a reason, because he's as violent to souls as cnaiur is physically.

Look at kellhus' rapist/pedophile rationalization for raping Leweth's soul.  Leweth was like a child and could be controlled, so kellhus exalted in controlling for controls sake, Leweth was asking for it, so to speak, Leweth "liked" it in the end, kellhus was smarter/more mature/stronger/better so he was entitled to Leweth's soul because of those things, Leweth's consent was irrelevant to kellhus slaying his unquenchable desires.  And of course kellhus eventually hunts down Leweth's soul and rapes it the way the bard hunted down the bastard  and raped him a few pages earlier.

But kellhus rationalized away all his crimes, his motivations, his emotions, dismissing them by claiming he was above them.
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: The Sharmat on February 18, 2015, 04:13:53 pm
I find your utter hatred for Kellhus refreshing in a board of Zaudunyani but I think there's slightly more to him than that. He feels more than lust for power, even if he never admits it to himself. Across the first trilogy we see plenty examples of almost-human levels of emotion utterly unbecoming of a Dunyain, and not all of them are generally things considered monstrous.

PoN: Outrage at Cnaiur's rape of Serwe. Arguable muted sympathy for Cnaiur (It's subtle but the whole "So much hatred."/"So much suffering." thought he keeps coming up with while analyzing Cnaiur comes across weird to me, and he does this more than once.)

TWP: Outright pity for Cnaiur, when he spares his life entirely against his best judgement and justifies it with a self serving platitude.('There are always other uses.') Something dangerously close to affection for Esmenet. (When he seems almost touched that she came to reassure him on the eve of his circumfixion out of concern. Also notable as possibly the only time anyone but Cnaiur caught him in a lie without Kellhus planning to be caught. Then there's the moment where his breath catches as Esmenet almost suffers a fatal fall from a roof, which is an uncharacteristic, involuntary emotional response.) And most dramatically, some weird combination of guilt, dismay, and anger when he's circumfixed next to Serwe, desperately willing her to stop being dead. ("Move, girl! I come before you!")

TTT: I think everything after the "But he had come SO FAR" bit speaks for itself.

Kellhus is a broken Dunyain. He's not human, but I also don't think I'd characterize him as a Sranc for souls.
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: Wilshire on February 18, 2015, 04:35:51 pm
I find your utter hatred for Kellhus refreshing in a board of Zaudunyani
Whoa, shots fired.

Kellhus is a broken Dunyain. He's not human, but I also don't think I'd characterize him as a Sranc for souls.
This.
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: locke on February 18, 2015, 04:43:36 pm
Is there any soul he encounters he doesn't agressively preemptively attempt to rape upon the instant of meeting?

Why does he believe he is entitled to do it?  Being smarter doesn't make him above consent, he just seizes and violates upon the moment of first meeting, he's basically got a permanent sranc erection of the metaphysical variety, constantly penetrating, trying to slake his unquenchable lust, and failing.
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: The Sharmat on February 18, 2015, 05:01:31 pm
Is there any soul he encounters he doesn't agressively preemptively attempt to rape upon the instant of meeting?
His kids.

Why does he believe he is entitled to do it?  Being smarter doesn't make him above consent, he just seizes and violates upon the moment of first meeting, he's basically got a permanent sranc erection of the metaphysical variety, constantly penetrating, trying to slake his unquenchable lust, and failing.
You're forgetting the most terrible thing about a Dunyain. He takes nothing. He makes them consent.

Is that not consent? This isn't even going into Cants of Compulsion. All Kellhus does is communicate information. Some of which is lies. But more often he ensnares with glimpses of truth.

I can't believe I'm defending Kellhus.
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: Wilshire on February 18, 2015, 05:58:44 pm
No we're getting into The Argument territory :)

Whats the difference between the consent given when coerced, and the consent given when not coerced? Its chemically, physically, and emotionally the same from the POV of the consentee? Who gives you, or anyone else, the right to judge their interaction?

Seems to me like you are suggesting some kind of objective pedestal one might sit upon and always be in the right when laying down judgments.
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: The Sharmat on February 18, 2015, 06:17:41 pm
Seems to me like you are suggesting some kind of objective pedestal one might sit upon and always be in the right when laying down judgments.
If that is what I'm doing, and there is one, then I am right. If that is what I'm doing, and I'm wrong, then technically it is not objectively wrong for me to lay down subjective moral judgements and treat them as objective, is it?

Of course then that boils down the entire argument to "Kellhus bad. Kellhus make me feel icky to read."
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: s Ī n Ī ster to Ā st on February 18, 2015, 06:23:51 pm
If you were the world's only adult and all others were toddlers,  would you not seek to guide them? Impose order on the chaos they would naturally create?  would you not seek to Come Before Them?
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: Wilshire on February 18, 2015, 07:20:22 pm
Seems to me like you are suggesting some kind of objective pedestal one might sit upon and always be in the right when laying down judgments.
If that is what I'm doing, and there is one, then I am right. If that is what I'm doing, and I'm wrong, then technically it is not objectively wrong for me to lay down subjective moral judgements and treat them as objective, is it?

Of course then that boils down the entire argument to "Kellhus bad. Kellhus make me feel icky to read."
Was moreso directed at locke, but yes I agree.

If you were the world's only adult and all others were toddlers,  would you not seek to guide them? Impose order on the chaos they would naturally create?  would you not seek to Come Before Them?
Certainly something that could be argued.
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: locke on February 18, 2015, 09:49:52 pm
Is there any soul he encounters he doesn't agressively preemptively attempt to rape upon the instant of meeting?
His kids.

Why does he believe he is entitled to do it?  Being smarter doesn't make him above consent, he just seizes and violates upon the moment of first meeting, he's basically got a permanent sranc erection of the metaphysical variety, constantly penetrating, trying to slake his unquenchable lust, and failing.
You're forgetting the most terrible thing about a Dunyain. He takes nothing. He makes them consent.

Is that not consent? This isn't even going into Cants of Compulsion. All Kellhus does is communicate information. Some of which is lies. But more often he ensnares with glimpses of truth.

I can't believe I'm defending Kellhus.
She really wanted it!  Even liked it at the end!

(How do we know these aren't merely kellhus' excuses and self flattering justifications and rationalizations?)

In other words just because kellhus can rationalize his actions to himself doesn't mean his rationalizations have any more credence than the same rationalization used by the bard.

The presence of such rationalizations merely indicates the depth and breadth of kellhus self deception, and it's there from the beginning. 

His ignorance of his self is breathtaking.
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: The Sharmat on February 18, 2015, 10:10:40 pm
She really wanted it!  Even liked it at the end!
Usually said as a defense in cases where the victim made their refusal quite clear and continued to do so long afterwards. This is more like a woman crying rape because she voluntarily slept with a dude that claimed to be an astronaut and then got mad when she later found out he was lying. That makes the guy in question scummy,but it doesn't make him a rapist.

(How do we know these aren't merely kellhus' excuses and self flattering justifications and rationalizations?)
Because we have read the thoughts of his worshipers. They're weeping for gratitude, generally.

In other words just because kellhus can rationalize his actions to himself doesn't mean his rationalizations have any more credence than the same rationalization used by the bard.

The presence of such rationalizations merely indicates the depth and breadth of kellhus self deception, and it's there from the beginning. 

His ignorance of his self is breathtaking.
Sure. And Kellhus likes power. I just think you're emphasizing the wrong character beats a bit.

You want a Sranc for souls? Check out Kelmomas/Samarmas.
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: Walter on February 18, 2015, 11:42:46 pm
I don't think we've ever seen Kellhus rape someone.  I also think he would have any problem with doing so.  He's certainly murdered.  People individually aren't sacred to him. He seems to be acting in order to cause humanity, collectively, to continue, but the question of the book is, more or less, why?
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: Wilshire on February 19, 2015, 03:29:04 am

She really wanted it!  Even liked it at the end!

(How do we know these aren't merely kellhus' excuses and self flattering justifications and rationalizations?)

In other words just because kellhus can rationalize his actions to himself doesn't mean his rationalizations have any more credence than the same rationalization used by the bard.

The presence of such rationalizations merely indicates the depth and breadth of kellhus self deception, and it's there from the beginning. 

His ignorance of his self is breathtaking.

Thats quite the emotional appeal.

His ignorance of his self is breathtaking.

He's just as easily in 100% control and understanding of himself as he is in ignorance. More words without his POV than with, why are you so certain you are correct.
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: locke on February 19, 2015, 04:42:55 am
Why are you so resistant to applying kellhusian analysis methods to kellhus?

Rape of souls is what kellhus does, he penetrates and violates everyone he encounters, but he had to find a backdoor for cnaiur.
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: SilentRoamer on February 19, 2015, 12:41:33 pm
Didn't work on Aurang. Aurang was like "Hell naw bitch! I am the raper of thousands!"

Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: Wilshire on February 19, 2015, 01:36:00 pm
Why are you so resistant to applying kellhusian analysis methods to kellhus?

That was a question directed at yourself, right? Seems to me like your analysis is based entirely on emotional rhetoric rather than any kind of intellectual dissection.

"Tricking people is mean and it hurts my feelings, so Kellhus is evil", which is a pretty fair interpretation of your logic so far, hardly seems kellhusian, to me anyway.
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: The Sharmat on February 19, 2015, 01:42:38 pm
He's just as easily in 100% control and understanding of himself as he is in ignorance.
I dispute this but my arguments all rely on stuff from the first trilogy so if he somehow became a literal God in the 20 year interim where we have nothing from his POV I wouldn't know it.
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: Wilshire on February 19, 2015, 04:40:54 pm
I dispute this but my arguments all rely on stuff from the first trilogy so if he somehow became a literal God in the 20 year interim where we have nothing from his POV I wouldn't know it.
Please, dispute away. He has some blindspots, certainly. My point being that saying he is 100% evil is just as valid as saying he is 100% perfect.
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: The Sharmat on February 19, 2015, 05:02:24 pm
Evil? Good? The very poison we seek to suck from this world?
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: Simas Polchias on February 19, 2015, 10:58:25 pm
Being smarter doesn't make him above consent, he just seizes and violates upon the moment of first meeting, he's basically got a permanent sranc erection of the metaphysical variety, constantly penetrating, trying to slake his unquenchable lust, and failing.
Almost certainly I'm going to regret this, but... Consent is a concept and thus born of necessity. Dunno if dunyain have overgrown it, but modern rapist are certainly not.
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: Wilshire on February 19, 2015, 11:28:16 pm
To add, this 'intellectual rape' that keeps being brought up is extremely vague, and doesn't really mean anything, especially to the Dunyain.

IMO, far, far less invasive than forcing a horse to bare a rider, or yoking oxen. This alleged violation is nothing more than an extension of what people do daily to other animals, or even the boss/employee interaction. One is simply the wielder of a tool , the other a tool. Unless you eschew all the trappings of modern society, you are no less guilty than Kellhus.
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: Seökti on February 23, 2015, 07:45:12 am
Look at kellhus' rapist/pedophile rationalization for raping Leweth's soul.  Leweth was like a child and could be controlled, so kellhus exalted in controlling for controls sake, Leweth was asking for it, so to speak, Leweth "liked" it in the end, kellhus was smarter/more mature/stronger/better so he was entitled to Leweth's soul because of those things, Leweth's consent was irrelevant to kellhus slaying his unquenchable desires.  And of course kellhus eventually hunts down Leweth's soul and rapes it the way the bard hunted down the bastard  and raped him a few pages earlier.

But kellhus rationalized away all his crimes, his motivations, his emotions, dismissing them by claiming he was above them.

Honestly I can't think of anything truly awful that Kellhus has done.  About the worst of it are some lies.  I'd like some concrete examples of ways Kellhus may have damned himself if that is what people are suggesting.

The assumed lack of 'consent' itself is suspect until it can prove consent wasn't given by Leweth for all of it. 

'He makes us love!'


The world is simply more visible to Kellhus - he was conditioned for it in ways beyond his own comprehension.
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: The Sharmat on February 23, 2015, 07:42:09 pm
Kellhus has presided over and ordered a number of huge atrocities in both the First Holy War and the Unification Wars. The only one I can remember specifically (because it's the last I read) is ordering anyone in the Tydonni Orthodox execution lines (to be executed for not being Zaudunyani and resisting Kellhus' conquest of their nation) that had been spared for seeing the light as it were (by Kellhus' order) to have their eyes put out.
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: Hirtius/Pansa on February 23, 2015, 07:47:41 pm
There is a choice line somewhere about how the Yatwerians cannot be defeated through violence; "They are too broad and myriad an organization, they are not a people we can simply uproot and exterminate like the Mongilean Kianene."  Genocide?
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: The Sharmat on February 23, 2015, 07:51:21 pm
Genocide is among the many tools of Empire building that Kellhus has no moral compunctions about using.
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: Wilshire on February 24, 2015, 03:58:01 pm
"Empire building" is a crime that I imagine most Emperors have committed, with all its attributions. These atrocities seem mundane, and while not excusable and likely enough to 'get him damned' (at least in a judeo-christian sense), I see it as a far cry from the kind of meta-evil that seems to be suggested above.

Truly awful, sure. Its hard to ignore genocide. The forceful conquest of the Three Seas is not a 'good' thing either. Kamikaze messengers, also bad.
... But he's not a Ciphrang, or a God, who have been ceaselessly torturing souls since the dawn of time. He's not as bad as the nonmen either, who committed atrocities for so long and on such a scale that they created topoi, tore asunder the very fabric of reality with their malice. If you want soul raping meta-evil, there are examples to be found, but not in Kellhus.

Caveat, this is up through WLW. The end is a mystery. If it turns out the Great Ordeal is just some vehicle for his own ends, then he sacrificed an entire nation with no regard for them at all, and this would put him pretty high up on the atrocity meter.
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: The Sharmat on February 24, 2015, 09:13:01 pm
So are we judging him from an amoral utilitarian POV (in which case nothing is evil or good, only adaptive or maladaptive) or from a moral point of view?
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: Wilshire on February 25, 2015, 03:01:51 am
Hasn't been defined. All are free to choose.
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: The Sharmat on February 25, 2015, 03:48:07 am
Well we're pretty sure at least one agency in the Outside really wants to chew on his soul.
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: Wilshire on February 25, 2015, 02:52:19 pm
Is any outside POV amoral or moral? I'd guess amoral, maybe?

Is there a moral POV base we can point to from Earwa? Would it have to be something vague like 'what everyone think's?
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: The Sharmat on February 25, 2015, 09:27:32 pm
The Outside entities may be hugely moralistic. It depends on how much what their followers think of them reflects what they think of themselves.

Of course it may not even be a meaningful question. The minds of Yatwer and co may be so different from those of mortals as to be incomprehensible.
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: Wilshire on February 25, 2015, 09:47:22 pm
Its an interesting question though.

Is the God that created everything moral or amoral? Probably however it decided to define itself. Would its creations be able to tell?
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: SilentRoamer on February 26, 2015, 12:32:37 pm
When the stakes are eternal damnation for anyone who will ever live - I fail to see how "morality" at the micro scale has any real relevance.

As some know I think Kellhus is attempting to free Men from their damnation - part of this involves him attaining the Absolute. Kellhus becoming the Absolute is a secondary goal for him now (IMO) and has been since he broke on the circumfux.

What matters suffering on Earwa when compared to eternal damnation? I would love a Kellhus view of him looking into the IF (if he has not already done the equivalent).
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: EkyannusIII on February 26, 2015, 10:44:19 pm
Interesting, though I still think at least initially that the word came from Dśnedain.

I now agree with this opinion, I had forgotten about the Dunedain until just last night.  And now I log in on a whim and find this post! A great correspondence of cause!
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: The Sharmat on February 27, 2015, 12:39:17 am
As some know I think Kellhus is attempting to free Men from their damnation - part of this involves him attaining the Absolute. Kellhus becoming the Absolute is a secondary goal for him now (IMO) and has been since he broke on the circumfux.
Seems like the shortest path to that would be siding with the Consult and aiding in the rebirth and triumph of the No-God.
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: SilentRoamer on February 27, 2015, 09:26:17 am
As some know I think Kellhus is attempting to free Men from their damnation - part of this involves him attaining the Absolute. Kellhus becoming the Absolute is a secondary goal for him now (IMO) and has been since he broke on the circumfux.
Seems like the shortest path to that would be siding with the Consult and aiding in the rebirth and triumph of the No-God.

Yeah at first glance that would appear to be the case but I think Kellhus has more information at this point than the reader. We don't really know what the NG does with the souls it hoovers up - it may just offer oblivion. In which case Kellhus is the only true salvation.

Not saying this is the case I just don't think we have all the variables.
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: Seökti on February 28, 2015, 02:19:10 am
Any crimes committed by Kellhus after the events in TTT we can assume are done with the greater plan of ridding the world of the Consult and Inchoroi in mind.  Not all actions are equal in Earwa.  We need Mimara to see Kellhus with the Judging Eye to truly know if Kellhus is objectively holy or insane (being one might mean being the other, too, that won't be so easy to find out).
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: The Sharmat on February 28, 2015, 02:51:24 am
Any crimes committed by Kellhus after the events in TTT we can assume are done with the greater plan of ridding the world of the Consult and Inchoroi in mind.
Can we? I really have no idea.

  Not all actions are equal in Earwa.  We need Mimara to see Kellhus with the Judging Eye to truly know if Kellhus is objectively holy or insane (being one might mean being the other, too, that won't be so easy to find out).
Even if we did see that, is Kellhus immoral or moral because he's damned/not damned? Just because the Outside apparently thinks so, do we have to think the same?
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: EkyannusIII on February 28, 2015, 03:32:25 am
We need Mimara to see Kellhus with the Judging Eye to truly know if Kellhus is objectively holy or insane (being one might mean being the other, too, that won't be so easy to find out).

In a world where gods are real and morality is baked in to the universe, how could holiness be anything but the pinnacle of sanity?
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: The Sharmat on February 28, 2015, 03:35:58 am
Because the Outside is mad.
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: EkyannusIII on February 28, 2015, 03:51:42 am
Because the Outside is mad.

As measured by what, if not itself or the Inside, which the Outside is already measuring?
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: The Sharmat on February 28, 2015, 03:59:56 am
Why does the Outside get to measure the Inside using its own standards, but the Inside doesn't get to judge the Outside?

And then I started worshiping the No-God.
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: The Sharmat on March 01, 2015, 07:57:49 am
Any crimes committed by Kellhus after the events in TTT we can assume are done with the greater plan of ridding the world of the Consult and Inchoroi in mind.
How does this mesh with the belief Kellhus professes in TTT that the No-God is somehow speaking to him?
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: Wilshire on March 01, 2015, 03:19:59 pm
Because the Outside is mad.

As measured by what, if not itself or the Inside, which the Outside is already measuring?

Measure is unceasing.

Why does the Outside get to measure the Inside using its own standards, but the Inside doesn't get to judge the Outside?

If anything, only Earwa should be used as the measuring stick, since the Outsdie is the most subjective plane that we know of.
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: The Sharmat on March 01, 2015, 05:02:44 pm
I like to imagine Cnaiur's deranged will was strong enough in the Outside that he became some huge horrible entity there and spends all his time being THE MOST VIOLENT OF ALL CIPHRANG
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: Wilshire on March 02, 2015, 05:11:49 pm
BREAKER OF GODS AND SOULS.
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: The Sharmat on March 03, 2015, 09:58:25 am
The reason Yatwer is in charge of the White Luck Warrior is that Cnaiur is currently in the process of killing Gilgaol and replacing him as War.
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: Wilshire on March 03, 2015, 01:37:10 pm
I didn't think the White-Luck had anything to do with Gilgaol?
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: The Sharmat on March 03, 2015, 02:23:32 pm
He doesn't. Because Cnaiur is kicking his ass all over the Outside.
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: Wilshire on March 03, 2015, 02:34:03 pm
Even assuming that this wasn't happening, why would Gilgaol have anything to do with Yatwer and her pawns?
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: The Sharmat on March 03, 2015, 02:42:19 pm
It's just a joke. You're over thinking it.
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: Wilshire on March 03, 2015, 02:46:40 pm
I take speculation very seriously ;)
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: The Sharmat on March 03, 2015, 02:57:23 pm
Well if we're being serious, I don't think anything actually explicitly states the White-Luck Warrior belongs to Yatwer. This White-Luck Warrior does, though. There's no reason to think Gilgaol couldn't make one, if he wanted, I suppose.

As to what Gilgaol has to do with Yatwer and her pawns...allegedly, Gilgaol is Yatwer's brother. And Birth and War are the two most popular of the Gods.
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: Wilshire on March 03, 2015, 03:14:30 pm
Hmmm, maybe only Yatwer and Gilgaol have the capacity to create such a thing.

As for being brother/sister and the most popular, and therefore powerful, I had always thought they opposed eachother rather vehemently. Not a happy family.
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: The Sharmat on March 03, 2015, 03:21:35 pm
Who can say? Gilgaol is taken for patron by the warrior castes of Earwa, and Yatwerian theology condemns them as "Takers".

But does Yatwer really feel that way? And how can something that had no parents have siblings? How much of anything that people in the Three Seas have to say about the nature of the agencies of the Outside is true at all?
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: Wilshire on March 03, 2015, 03:24:12 pm
Then they must have parents if they are siblings, and though they no longer know it, Earwanians created the gods.
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: The Sharmat on March 03, 2015, 03:29:12 pm
Siblings could be a metaphorical relationship. Something something birth is the battlefield of women ancient misogyny something something
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: Wilshire on March 03, 2015, 03:42:00 pm
Something something birth is the battlefield of women ancient misogyny something something
lmao.

Yeah it could be a metaphor, men have such a poor understanding of the things they worship.
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: MG on March 04, 2015, 06:50:47 pm
Who can say? Gilgaol is taken for patron by the warrior castes of Earwa, and Yatwerian theology condemns them as "Takers".

But does Yatwer really feel that way? And how can something that had no parents have siblings? How much of anything that people in the Three Seas have to say about the nature of the agencies of the Outside is true at all?

i don't have any answers for you but your post made me think of Hesiod's Theogeny where Athena is born out of Zeus' head and Aphrodite is born twice :)  i think the initial 4 entities just show up without precursor
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: MG on March 04, 2015, 06:54:52 pm
Well if we're being serious, I don't think anything actually explicitly states the White-Luck Warrior belongs to Yatwer. This White-Luck Warrior does, though. There's no reason to think Gilgaol couldn't make one, if he wanted, I suppose.

As to what Gilgaol has to do with Yatwer and her pawns...allegedly, Gilgaol is Yatwer's brother. And Birth and War are the two most popular of the Gods.

lol, i'm imagining 2 dozen white luck warriors converging all at once!  maybe this is Moenghus plan: get kilt, ascend, arrange for multiple white luck warriors to converge, create singulairy, ..., profit!
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: MG on March 04, 2015, 07:03:51 pm
Any crimes committed by Kellhus after the events in TTT we can assume are done with the greater plan of ridding the world of the Consult and Inchoroi in mind.
How does this mesh with the belief Kellhus professes in TTT that the No-God is somehow speaking to him?

i'm not entirely sure that Kellhus does think that the No-God is speaking to him.  i know it sounds stupid, but i think all we know is that he has the visions, then he reports to Aurang and Moenghus that the No-God is speaking to him.  perhaps Kellhus is just playing a part?  he knows that someone wants him to think that the NG is talking to him, so he plays a long.  it would be a neat surprise is Kellhus knew that someone (Moenghus, the gods, whoever) was setting him up to be broken so he played the role hiding his own motives
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: EkyannusIII on April 26, 2015, 04:01:42 pm
Why does the Outside get to measure the Inside using its own standards, but the Inside doesn't get to judge the Outside?

...

Because the Outside created the Inside, which has no being or reality apart from what the Outside gives it, and which is literally nothing of itself?  There is no possibility of parity in such a relationship.
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: Wilshire on April 27, 2015, 02:15:13 am
Why does the Outside get to measure the Inside using its own standards, but the Inside doesn't get to judge the Outside?

...

Because the Outside created the Inside, which has no being or reality apart from what the Outside gives it, and which is literally nothing of itself?  There is no possibility of parity in such a relationship.
We have no origin stories. I'm actually inclined to believe that the inside actually created the outside.

Like an omnipotent god that fashions a cage he cannot escape from.
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: EkyannusIII on April 27, 2015, 05:18:27 pm
If that should prove to be true then I would stand refuted, but I can only think that the Tusk is basically accurate in light of the fact that at least one of it's deities (Yatwer) has apparently manifested herself to her worshipers.  It is worth noting that Kellhus does not seem to question the reality of the Outside or it's agencies despite having more or less every incentive to do so.
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: Wilshire on April 27, 2015, 05:32:16 pm
Its certainly real, but how it came to be real is the question. Earwa seems adept at turning groupthink into reality, eg Kellhus is actually divine because he convinced enough people to believe him. Similarly  I think the Eannas created their own gods which now rule over them, damned the universe, etc. This is just a crackpot though.
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: H on April 27, 2015, 05:34:36 pm
Well, like Inrithism is syncretic (I can recall Scott saying this before), I think the Tusk is too.  I think the Inchoroi used what "religion" they could find to craft something to their own ends.

That being said, we don't know how the gods work, as in, are they informed by the Inside? Or is the Inside informed by the Outside?  My guess is that there is some kind of bi-directionality though.
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: Wilshire on April 27, 2015, 05:37:27 pm
Considering the Earwaverse exists on some slider of "objective reality" to "subjective reality", there would almost certainly have to be a give and take. Chicken or egg though.
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: H on April 27, 2015, 05:53:33 pm
Well, since the Non-Men didn't believe in them, I don't think the gods could exist without humans, so I'd have to guess that humans came to believe in the gods, which formed the gods Outside and gave them agency Inside, which in turn caused more people to believe in them, ad-infinitum.
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: s Ī n Ī ster to Ā st on April 27, 2015, 09:11:00 pm
While human belief on Earwa does seem to affect the Outside, we have to remember that the Outside has existed for way longer than Humanity has, as evidenced by the Inchoroi who've been damned even before they came to Earwa, or could it be possible that damnation  and the outside are seperate?
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: Wilshire on April 28, 2015, 03:07:27 am
I dont think they are separate, damnation and outside, but I think that since the outsides exists somehow "outside" of time, then its possible that men created them at some given point on our linear timeline, and then the outside suddenly existed in all times before and since.
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: locke on April 29, 2015, 04:33:45 am
Its certainly real, but how it came to be real is the question. Earwa seems adept at turning groupthink into reality, eg Kellhus is actually divine because he convinced enough people to believe him. Similarly  I think the Eannas created their own gods which now rule over them, damned the universe, etc. This is just a crackpot though.
Nah, Kellhus is divine because he's serwes husband, not because he convinced people to believe in his divinity.
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: Wilshire on April 29, 2015, 12:18:23 pm
Serwe is nothing. The Dunyain are the master's of their own destiny unlike any race, human or otherwise, before or since.
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: locke on April 29, 2015, 04:16:31 pm
Serwe is everything, the Dunyain are deluded.  The dunyain are architects of intricate edifices of obfuscation dedicated to preserving and maintaining the hermetic sanctity of their willful self deception.
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: Wilshire on April 29, 2015, 04:30:54 pm
The world is deluded, Serwe the culmination. The Dunyain are the only ones with the agency to break the cycles of history, the chains of the gods. To be self-moving.
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: H on April 29, 2015, 05:37:25 pm
I always took the line, after reading the first few books, that Kellhus was really a savior, but subsequent readings and Scott's own comments have made me doubt that.  He has said multiple times that the Dūnyain are the illusion of our modern method of thought.

The idea that the world could be mastered, especially Earwa, is flawed.  While Moė wants Kellhus to believe that nothing violates the principle of before and after, we actually know that this is false, a la the White-Luck Warrior.  Or at least, so we are led  to believe.

In the end we are fed some pretty contradictory stuff and really none of our "sources" seem very reliable.  I think this is Bakker's point though, which is echoed in his blog posts about "winning the magic-belief lottery," that everyone seems to know exactly what is going on, but in reality they are all probably just seeing things as they want to.

I've always had a sense that what we are in for a big reversal in the end, that where the text seems to be leading us is not the path that will actually be the "true" one.  Or maybe his point, that there won't be a "true" path...

Well, that's a lot of rambling, I don't know that I've made any real point though...
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: locke on April 29, 2015, 06:52:27 pm
The only thing I'm certain of in the series is that the dunyain belief system does not win the  belief lottery nor does it circumvent said lottery.  All they do is just rhetoric in service of delusion.
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: locke on April 29, 2015, 07:03:04 pm
Take kellhus' magical moment at the end of the first book.  We're supposed to believe that this heavily ritualized week long meditation is mystically somehow less magical an experience because we are given an elaborate and belabored series of supposedly rational explanations that leverage orwellian language to declare it "not magic".  But it's still a fucking supernatural experience, as thoroughly impossible in real life as any magic of akka. 

All the week long meditation worship scene is, is is a mechanism for whelming and controlling kellhus.
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: Bolivar on April 29, 2015, 09:35:58 pm
You really think it was magic? I agree the whelming is unlikely but I chalked that up to suspension of disbelief, not magic. Although it would jive with the theory that the upper echelon of the pragma know the truth about magic and such.
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: locke on April 29, 2015, 09:55:01 pm
I would say a magical ritual with a magical outcome indicates magic
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: Wilshire on April 30, 2015, 12:48:22 pm
Not at all magic in any way. Borderline religious perhaps, but its a circumstance imposed on the mind and body through prolonged hardship and extended deprivation. Something I think anyone could achieve given the correct dicipline.

A method for control? Maybe, but calling it magic is taking the easy way out. In Earwa, calling it magic lets you pretend like its not important, easily explainable (akin to invoking "god did it"), but making it real and purely physical forces you to consider tougher truths.
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: locke on April 30, 2015, 09:34:42 pm
Can it happen in the real world?

No.

Ergo, it is magic.

Hardship and discipline are two hallmarks of all other magic, their presence preceding the magic does not disprove it.

The veneer of legitimacy is naught but a caul over your eyes occulding the truth from your sight.  the "tougher truths" are just a way to paper over your delusions with a label.
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: Wilshire on April 30, 2015, 10:56:53 pm
What was unique about his experience that makes it such that it cannot happen IRL? Out of body experience, hearing voices, feeling of absolute clarity, all very real. Some of those monks in those mountains can do are purported to do crazy things, why not the Dunyain in fantasy land?

A quick google search shows much more incredible things : http://listverse.com/2013/05/21/10-amazing-examples-of-mind-over-matter/

Thus, by your logic, since it can happen IRL, it isn't magic.
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: locke on April 30, 2015, 11:12:06 pm
Supernatural speed
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: Wilshire on May 01, 2015, 12:25:29 pm
Supernatural speed
?
Now im lost. What scene specifically are you talking about? Thought you were referencing the "the logos is without beginning or end" scene.

Also, don't mean preternatural speed ;)
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: MG on May 02, 2015, 06:32:17 pm
Take kellhus' magical moment at the end of the first book.  We're supposed to believe that this heavily ritualized week long meditation is mystically somehow less magical an experience because we are given an elaborate and belabored series of supposedly rational explanations that leverage orwellian language to declare it "not magic".  But it's still a fucking supernatural experience, as thoroughly impossible in real life as any magic of akka. 

All the week long meditation worship scene is, is is a mechanism for whelming and controlling kellhus.


is this about the Circumfixion?
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: Wilshire on May 04, 2015, 02:21:27 pm
Take kellhus' magical moment at the end of the first book.  We're supposed to believe that this heavily ritualized week long meditation is mystically somehow less magical an experience because we are given an elaborate and belabored series of supposedly rational explanations that leverage orwellian language to declare it "not magic".  But it's still a fucking supernatural experience, as thoroughly impossible in real life as any magic of akka. 

All the week long meditation worship scene is, is is a mechanism for whelming and controlling kellhus.


is this about the Circumfixion?

Circumfixion was TWP, not TDTCB.
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: MG on May 04, 2015, 09:12:54 pm
Take kellhus' magical moment at the end of the first book.  We're supposed to believe that this heavily ritualized week long meditation is mystically somehow less magical an experience because we are given an elaborate and belabored series of supposedly rational explanations that leverage orwellian language to declare it "not magic".  But it's still a fucking supernatural experience, as thoroughly impossible in real life as any magic of akka. 

All the week long meditation worship scene is, is is a mechanism for whelming and controlling kellhus.


is this about the Circumfixion?

Circumfixion was TWP, not TDTCB.

derp!  "the logos is without..."  now i REMEMBER
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: Seökti on June 17, 2015, 03:30:49 am
I wanted to flesh out an earlier theory regarding the purpose of the Dunyain as fulfillment of the Celmomian prophecy.

At some point near or after the conclusion of the first apocalypse Seswatha must have realized that sorcery alone would not be enough to take on the Consult.  Instead, perhaps Seswatha believed they needed a tekne not of the body alone (like the Inchoroi) but of the mind (the Dunyain).  In this manner he sought to create a being capable of intervening during the second apocalypse by virtue of his abilities being unaccountable or unforeseeable by the Consult the same way the tekne was unforeseen by the Nonmen.

The Dunyain as a strategic revisioning of the tekne in order to account for the tekne during the second apocalypse.

Meaning the Second Apocalypse might come down to Dunyain tekne vs. Inchoroi tekne.

The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak - Mark 14:38
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: Wilshire on June 17, 2015, 04:20:21 pm
Yeah what the Dunyain have done is more/less what the tekne is without machines. They use artificial selection and compounding ages to get real genetic results, where the Inchoroi directly modified their own genome.

It seems correct that the Inchoroi are more concerned with the physical, while the Dunyain made the mental aspect just as important (if not more).
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: H on August 17, 2015, 12:04:30 pm
So, I reread this passage it there are a number of curious things I hadn't thought about:

Quote
But the boy clutched his father’s sword, crying, “So long as men live, there are crimes!”
The man’s eyes filled with wonder. “No, child,” he said. “Only so long as men are deceived.”
For a moment, the young Anasūrimbor could only stare at him. Then solemnly, he set aside his father’s sword and took the stranger’s hand. “I was a prince,” he mumbled.
The stranger brought him to the others, and together they celebrated their strange fortune. They cried out—not to the Gods they had repudiated but to one another—that here was evident a great correspondence of cause. Here awareness most holy could be tended. In Ishuäl, they had found shelter against the end of the world.
Still emaciated but wearing the furs of kings, the Dūnyain chiselled the sorcerous runes from the walls and burned the Grand Vizier’s books. The jewels, the chalcedony, the silk and cloth-of-gold, they buried with the corpses of a dynasty.

First, why would his "eyes fill with wonder" at what the Prince says to him?

Second, it seems to be saying that them finding Ishuäl was fortunate.  That it proved "correspondence of cause" but then again, framed as it is, the passage could well be saying that finding an Anasūrimbor was the fortunate part.

Aside from that, I took to wonder about Ishuäl.  Odd facts about it:

Despite it being an alleged product of Celemomas, the name Ishuäl is Ihrimsū for "Exalted Grotto" not Kūniüric, or Dūnyanic (which is Kūniüric in origin).  Why would it have a Nonman name, if it was human built?  Further more, when Kellhus first enters a Nonman mansion, he remarks:

Quote
So like the Thousand Thousand Halls … So like Ishuäl.
...
The work of Nonmen.

Indeed, I find it highly plausible that Ishuäl is a Nonman mansion, which led me to think, why was it made, yet uninhabited.  Sticking with the thread of the name though, I curiously looked up what "grotto" would mean.

Quote
The word comes from Italian grotta, Vulgar Latin grupta, Latin crypta, (from the Greek κρύπτη krżptē "hidden vault").

This was interesting to me, but I felt it too tenuous to really be much.  Then I happened to be rereading WLW, and I came across this:

Quote
For his part, Achamian did not know what to believe. All he knew was that the Mop was no ordinary forest and that the encircling trees were no ordinary trees.
Crypts, Pokwas had called them.
...
Aside from his one nightmarish dream of the finding the No-God, he had dreamed of naught but the same episode since climbing free of Cil-Aujas: the High-King Celmomas giving Seswatha the map detailing the location of Ishuäl—the birthplace of Anasūrimbor Kellhus—telling him to secure it beneath the Library of Sauglish... In the Coffers, no less.
"Keep it, old friend. Make it your deepest secret..."

Here is a reference to "crypts," the trees of the Mop, and this triggers Akka to dream of Ishuäl.  Coincidence, possibly, but I doubt it.

It has occurred to me before that Akka's insistence that the dreams are essentially random is absolutely false.  They may have been at one time, when all the souls of all the Mandate sorcerers seemed essentially "the same" but not now, not for Akka who walks a very different path.

So, is Ishuäl a crypt?  Is so, then for who?  If it is a "hidden vault" then what was necessary to hide?

Considering it's location, it seems like it would a creation of Injor-Niyas, made by Nil'giccas and afterwards forgotten?

The last resting place of their Nonmen women perhaps?
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: Wilshire on August 18, 2015, 02:27:21 pm
I'd like to break down the quote:
Quote
But the boy clutched his father’s sword, crying, “So long as men live, there are crimes!”
The man’s eyes filled with wonder. “No, child,” he said. “Only so long as men are deceived.”
The implication here is that there are no crimes when men are no longer deceived. This means that once they achieve their Absolute, they expect the world to live happily ever after in perfect harmony. Seems odd.

As for why his eyes filled with wonder, I read it as just surprise, "wonder", that a someone so young could feel/think this way.

Quote
For a moment, the young Anasūrimbor could only stare at him. Then solemnly, he set aside his father’s sword and took the stranger’s hand. “I was a prince,” he mumbled.
He does not say he was an anasurimbor. Though, its just as likely it was mentioned 'off screen'.

Quote
The stranger brought him to the others, and together they celebrated their strange fortune. They cried out—not to the Gods they had repudiated but to one another—that here was evident a great correspondence of cause.
I agree this could indicated celebration of finding an Anasurimbor, or finding the place itself.

The name Ishual indicates, at the very least, a close relationship between Celmomas and the Nonmen.

I think it extremely likely that the Thousand Thousand Halls beneath Ishual were a Mansion or at least some construct by the Nonmen. I think the Castle built atop it was built by Celmomas and his dynasty.

Grotto -> vault is an interesting idea.

Akka's dreams, specifically their timing, is very important throughout the series, according to Bakker. Crypts leading to dreams of Ishual seems like a good connection. We haven't seen any normal Nonmen grave sites, could be they built a crypt to house all their dead, except the special ones they burned or otherwise sealed.
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: H on August 18, 2015, 02:49:09 pm
I feel a good amount of doubt that Celmomas actually built any part of Ishuäl.  On the one hand, we aren't presented with anything to really tell us, one way or another, except one thing: sorcerous runes.  To me, that says Nonman construction (the runes were probably Aporetic, to prevent sorcerous attacks).  It doesn't seem plausible to me that Celmomas had a hidden cache of sorcerers on call for the construction.
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: Wilshire on August 18, 2015, 11:07:15 pm
If anything, if it was nonman, the last thing they would find would be aporetic runes.

As for the runes themselves, I see no real reason for them, regardless of who built the place.

The Vizer was sorcerous and lived there, could be that he was bored or just studying sorcery for some reason or another. Either way, there were text about sorcery and/or magic, and runes etched into surfaces, so someone had some interest in the subject.
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: H on August 19, 2015, 11:14:25 am
I guess I am just not of the mind that anyone would spend the time carving sorcerous runes flippantly onto the walls of a hold-fast.

What says, to me, that the 'writing' on a Chorae is always described as runes.  However, so is Kūniüri, but there is something else.  If the runes were there to place Wards, wouldn't that make Ishuäl highly noticeable to any member of the Few?  I wonder if Aporetic runes would be so noticeable.

Grasping at straws though really, all I think is "conslusive" is that there is a strong connection between Nonmen and Ishuäl.
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: Wilshire on August 19, 2015, 12:54:17 pm
I'm not sure how marked objects look. Could be that the mark only go so far as to the edge of the protected/ensorcered thing. Meaning that a think enough wall, or a double wall, where only the inner part was protected, could easily be hidden from view. I dont think the mark is visible and/or sense-able through objects like the chorae are. That said, my guess is that either would give away ishual in some way. Non-aporetic would be visible to some extent, while aporetic wouldn't be visible but it may still be 'felt' like the chorae.
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: H on August 19, 2015, 01:52:00 pm
Indeed, the runes fail to make too much logical sense from what we know.  There must be more to it.

It seems to me that the idea of the Dūnyain simply stumbling upon Ishuäl seems really improbable.  That would make the whole chain of subsequent events total happenstance.

I guess I am seeing that quote as it being fortutious that they found an Anasūrimbor alive, not that they found Ishuäl.

Guesses and guesses of guesses, forever...
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: MG on August 27, 2015, 11:48:35 pm
@ Seokti - love the idea of Dunyain tekne!  it makes me wonder … the inchoroi in their present form seem to be a somewhat ruined version of whatever their peak was.  i wonder if Bakker is going to get around to a similar ruined version of Dunyain mentality?

the Dunyain maximize their brains while the Inchoroi rely on huge clam brains grafted on (presumably with a beef neck to boot)

@ H - awesome thoughts about Ishual and being fortunate for finding an *Anasurimbor!*

i remember reading somewhere that the 1000 temples forbid planting a tree on a burial plot.  makes me wonder if the Mop is the product of a great slaughter from the 1st apocalypse

if Ishual is a crypt of nonwomen, then we can bet on Akka reading text to tell us the story and Mimara having a vision of suffering like she did in the slave pits -- the revelation of new facts concerning the womb plague!

'vault' also makes me wonder if Ishual is the nonman version of the Coffers--great and forgotten treasure buried deep!

Wouldn't choric script interfer with Moe's dream texts?
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: locke on August 28, 2015, 06:07:08 am
Re Choric script.
Not if moe was inside the frame writ by the Choric script, inside the barricades so to speak.  Alternatively, not if kellhus never had dreams, his whelming just included to post hypnotic suggestion he'd had dreams and the accompanying stories he believes were all just part of his whelming before being released.  Kellhus didn't have to have dreams, he just had to believe he'd had dreams.


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Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: Blackstone on April 18, 2016, 06:01:25 pm
I know this is an older thread, but I had some thoughts on my last re-read of the books. It seems to me that the Dunyain happening upon Ishual is something of a coincidence, but I think that's what it is. We get lots of other coincidences in the early part of the first book.
I see the Dunyain as something of a cult of philosophers who end up running a eugenics experiment that breeds blue eyed, blonde haired supermen...wait.

That being said, I've noticed that there is no mention of modern Dunyain women. All of the training that takes place in Kellhus's flashbacks include only men. Makes me wonder what is up with the women. Perhaps they are kept in crazy breeding rooms in the Thousand Thousand Halls and only let out for holidays.
Title: Re: The Dūnyain
Post by: Wilshire on April 18, 2016, 07:26:10 pm
Where have all the Ent Wives gone?

The inchoroi women, nonmen-women, and dunyain women, are notably omissions in our picture of Earwa. Considering Dune and its impact on the series

(click to show/hide)

Or, maybe the Dunyain reproduce a-sexually and have no need for women?