The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => The Prince of Nothing => The Almanac: PON Edition => Topic started by: Camlost on November 28, 2015, 02:43:02 am

Title: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: Camlost on November 28, 2015, 02:43:02 am
Congratulations, you made it past the recruitment phase. Fasten your boots and sharpen your knives. This marks the first step on the journey I guess. Within this thread we'll be discussing the prologue as well as chapters one through four. The entirety of this endeavour is taking place under the Almanac heading, so there shouldn't be any reason to fret over spoilers (Madness you keep your mouth shut). Have at it boys!

[EDIT Madness]: The topics during this reread are open spoilers. The rest of the Almanac is up for debate (and really was a wild wild place of conduct because nothing was ever enforced).

[EDIT Madness]: Title to include the Prologue.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: The Sorcerer
Post by: Wilshire on November 28, 2015, 06:24:40 am
Might wraps rephrase that. Fine to have open spoilers for this slew of topics [state it in the first post], but the almanac isn't necessarily all open. The only topics that do that are misc and TGO.

Thanks for the start cam.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: The Sorcerer
Post by: Madness on November 28, 2015, 03:02:33 pm
Lol - thanks, Wilshire :).
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: The Sorcerer
Post by: geoffrobro on November 28, 2015, 04:08:07 pm
yeah im ready
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer
Post by: H on November 30, 2015, 12:24:35 pm
So, I am going to just throw out some quotes I find interesting in the moment:

Quote
Superstition. Everywhere and in everything, Leweth had confused that which came after with that which came before, confused the effect for the cause. Men came after, so he placed them before and called them “gods” or “demons.” Words came after, so he placed them before and called them “scriptures” or “incantations.” Confined to the aftermath of events and blind to the causes that preceded him, he merely fastened upon the ruin itself, men and the acts of men, as the model of what came before.
But what came before, the Dûnyain had learned, was inhuman.
There must be some other explanation. There is no sorcery.

So, here we have what might be the first example of Kellhus being absolutely wrong.  Or is it?  Sure, he is wrong at sorcery isn't real, but since we know that, we would tend to discount this entire portion as "Kellhus is misguided by the Dunyain."  But perhaps the first part is right?  We don't actually know if the god or gods came before or after.

Quote
The walls shivered beneath a fierce succession of gusts, and the flame twirled with abrupt incandescence. The hanging pelts lightly rocked to and fro. Leweth looked about, his brow furrowed, as though he strained to hear someone.
“It’s a long way off, Kellhus, through dangerous lands.”
“Shimeh is not . . . holy for you?”

Is the wind and the fire's sudden increased brightness made to show us his superstitiousness or is there something else going on?

Also, how does Kellhus know that Shimeh is holy at all?

Quote
“Ruins. Ruins. N-Nonmen ruins. Many places to h-h-hide.”

Another Injor-Niyas mansion West of Sobel though.

Quote
Kellhus was astonished by the great stones of the gate. Many had a girth as huge as the oak they obscured. An uplifted face had been hewn from the lintel—blank eyes, as patient as sky.

Interesting, that is not a motif we have ever seen after.

Quote
“It speaks the language,” the man muttered at length. He stepped closer, peering at Kellhus. “Yes,” he said. “Yes . . . You do not merely mock me. I can see his blood in your face.”
Kellhus again was silent.
“You have the patience of an Anasûrimbor as well.”

This is a part of why I very much doubt that Kellhus is an Anasûrimbor in name only, Mek recognizes him and I believe him on this.

That's my thoughts on the Prologue, I'll try to get though another chapter tomorrow.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer
Post by: locke on December 01, 2015, 12:40:14 am
"The flame twirled with abrupt incandescence."

Across all five books variants on the word incandescent only and exclusively are used to accompany and denote the presence of sorcercy.  The word is never used in the absence of sorcery except this line--which indicates sorcery is probably occurring unbeknownst to the POV.  The prologue concludes with kellhus definitively wrong about sorcery and this use of incandescence is within the context of a conversation in which he is wrong about sorcery. Leweths concise evaluations of the supernatural is accurate on all counts per later evidence and kellhus is wrong on all counts, in other words a good place to slip in a kellhus error of not recognizing the presence of sorcery.


"It speaks the language" almost as though mek were waiting for someone speaking a very particular language, a language mek was waiting to particularly hear--THE language.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer
Post by: Camlost on December 01, 2015, 03:53:07 am
Just some preliminary thoughts and/or notes on the Prologue. I'll follow up on some discussion later and post a few more things from following chapters. But for now:

Quote
Ganrelka had only wept at Ishual,  raged the way only an Emperor of nothing could rage
Interesting little parallelism to the name of the trilogy

Quote
His food ran out, and he continued to walk. Everything---experience, analysis---became mysteriously sharp
Wouldn't being starved and exhausted dull or muddy one's experiential inputs?

Quote
The world had always been strange with significance to the trapper, but now it had become terrifying
For some reason I feel like Leweth has a considerably more complicated past than his current situation would allude, but ultimately his role in the narrative is primarily as a cipher for Kellhus.

Quote
There were witches, Leweth had told him, whose urgings could harness the wild agencies asleep in the earth, animal, and tree
I could simply be overlooking obvious references, but Akka's doll aside, I can't recall very many other mentions of witches pre-TAE and those are more a sanctioned sect than hedge magic. Are rogue magic users more openly accepted in the North in the absence of Inrithism?
 
Quote
And in the gloom of a faltering fire, Anasurimbor Kellhus slowly drew Leweth into his own descending rhythms---slower breath, drowsy eyes
Thought it was worth pointing out the first instance of Kellhus using hypnosis

Quote
On the far side of the stele he saw tracks in the snow
Is it mere coincidence that a group of Sranc are hanging out around an ancient Kuniuric relic? Are they genuinely in there area solely to pilfer Leweth's runs?

Quote
For Kellhus the threat existed only in the fear manifested by the trapper. The forest was still his.
This is quite the conceit, even for one of the Conditioned; especially one who very nearly became consumed by the chaos of it. The entire prologue seems like a series of colossal missteps by Kellhus. It's a wonder he makes it.

Quote
The ruins of a gate and a wall towered over the nearer slops. Beyond it, a dead oak of immense proportions bent against the sky
Another ancient, massive tree shows up at the Nonmen ruins in the South does it not? What fascination do the Nonmen have with trees?
In the scene immediately following, Kellhus enters the courtyard before being rushed by Sranc. He comments
Quote
So clear, this place
. I only direct attention to it because it seems partially incongruous with his situation. Why, if one must necessarily fight a group of enemies, would he choose open ground? Arrow catching aside, it seems like a tactical mistake to me. I might be reading more into it than it warrants, but I can't help but feel that perhaps the very ground resonates with something in him.

Quote
A powerful voice rang out in Kuniuric
It seems odd to me that the Nonman's first attempt at communication would be in the language of a long dead civilization. Unless I'm mistaken and it is still used amongst the North? I almost wonder whether their encounter was as much happenstance as it appears. Compound this excerpt with the Sranc prints near the Anasurimbor stele and it seems less likely it was chance

Quote
"I see that you are a student. Knowledge is power, eh?"
To what is he referring? A student of sorcery? The Gnosis? A student of the Logos? If the latter, wouldn't he know the Dunyain cult disappeared during the Apocalypse, presumably wiped out? How might it be the former if Kellhus bears no Mark?

Quote
"For us life is always a...decision. For you...Well, let us just say it decides."
Is the emphasis on it meant to signify something other than life? If so, what? Just something that struck me as odd as it seems he is ruminating on something as he speaks.

Quote
"This Sranc here---you could not pronounce its name---was our elju...our 'book,' you would say in your tongue. A most devoted animal. I'll be wrecked without it---for a time, anyway."
What is an elju? What does it do? Why is it necessary that he have one in his entourage?

Quote
A furious incandescence...Sorcery? How could it be?
Noted this because of locke's previous comment in regards to "incandescence." Also, can't Kellhus see the Mark? Whether or not it might be something he even recognizes as such, surely it would be something particularly out of place in the context of what he has come to learn in Ishual as well as with Leweth. It strikes me as something that should come up in his scrutinizing. Unless Kellhus develops a means to identify the Mark unrelated to be one of the Few?
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer
Post by: locke on December 01, 2015, 05:40:45 am
First item suggests Ganrelka was something of a prisoner.

"His food ran out, and he continued to walk. Everything---experience, analysis---became mysteriously sharp"

that's trauma inducing Kellhus to see the Onta. sharpness and onta go together hand in hand.

"So clear, this place"

oblique way of saying conditioned ground.

***
 "And in the gloom of a faltering fire, Leweth slowly drew Anasurimbor Kellhus into his own descending rhythms---slower breath, drowsy eyes"

Leweth (or one working through him) hypnotized Kellhus in this scene. Kellhus was just conditioned to think otherwise in the hypnosis.

I love the catch on Kellhus' blunder and egotism in thinking the forest belonged to him.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer
Post by: H on December 01, 2015, 12:46:40 pm
Quote
For Kellhus the threat existed only in the fear manifested by the trapper. The forest was still his.
This is quite the conceit, even for one of the Conditioned; especially one who very nearly became consumed by the chaos of it. The entire prologue seems like a series of colossal missteps by Kellhus. It's a wonder he makes it.

Is it mere coincidence that a group of Sranc are hanging out around an ancient Kuniuric relic? Are they genuinely in there area solely to pilfer Leweth's runs?

On Kellhus' mistakes: realize he doesn't actually "make it" in the sense that he survives of his own ability.  Leweth is the one who saves him, otherwise he is dead in the snow there.  The greatest question is how deep does Moënghus' conditioning of Kellhus' path run?  Alternatively, how guided is Kellhus by things Outside?  I think that is a very deep tension in the whole first three books we should keep an eye on.  On that, Leweth's finding him is no coincidence.  Leweth being camped near those ruins is no accident.  The Sranc being nearby is also no accident, as it brings Mekeritrig into (or back into) conditioned ground.

Another ancient, massive tree shows up at the Nonmen ruins in the South does it not? What fascination do the Nonmen have with trees?

I believe that the trees mark the locations of Mansions.

Quote
A powerful voice rang out in Kuniuric
It seems odd to me that the Nonman's first attempt at communication would be in the language of a long dead civilization. Unless I'm mistaken and it is still used amongst the North? I almost wonder whether their encounter was as much happenstance as it appears. Compound this excerpt with the Sranc prints near the Anasurimbor stele and it seems less likely it was chance.

I think that since Scott let slip that the Nonman is Mekeritrig and also considering that Scott said it was a mistake to tell us that, means that one, there is no chance this meeting was just a coincidence, and, two, that the fact that it's Mekeritrig is significant.  The reason he could be shouting in Kuniuric though is the same reason why he is prowling around Kuniuric ruins: he is reliving the past, trying to remember something, or someone.

Quote
"I see that you are a student. Knowledge is power, eh?"
To what is he referring? A student of sorcery? The Gnosis? A student of the Logos? If the latter, wouldn't he know the Dunyain cult disappeared during the Apocalypse, presumably wiped out? How might it be the former if Kellhus bears no Mark?

This seems to speak to a Moe-Mek connection, perhaps he refers to the Dunyain?  We don't know what that word actually means.

There is the possibility that when Moënghus left Ishual, he met Mekeritrig on the way.  Or, more likely, is that Moënghus met him in the first place, prompting his dismissal from Ishual.  Perhaps it is actually to Moënghus that Mekeritrig speaks when he says, "I can see his blood in your face" not Celemomas or any of the other Ancient Anasûrimbors.

What is an elju? What does it do? Why is it necessary that he have one in his entourage?

The elju is a person who aid's an Erratic's memory.  I don't really understand how a Sranc fills that role, but perhaps it was just a Sranc with uncommonly good language skill?  Remember that Kosoter will be Cleric's elju later on.

I think the prologue is by far the best chapter in the series.  So damn layered, but we have no real idea which are dirt and which are gold.

I read Chapter 1 this morning, which, coming from the Prologue, is so much slower, haha.

Only the following stuck me:

Quote
“They call to me. They say that my end is not the world’s end. That burden, they say, is yours. Yours, Seswatha.”

This is Celemomas to Seswatha in Akka's dream.  So, Seswatha's end is the end of the world?  What dos that really mean?
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer
Post by: MSJ on December 01, 2015, 01:12:57 pm
Great analysis guys. I picked up on the incandescence also and could very well be Moe watching Kellhus. Camlost, a elju is someone who keeps the memories of a Nonman. The captain was Nil'gaccas elju.

One thing I picked up on that I hadn't noticed before. Is a quote at the very beginning of the prologue and something Kellhus ruminates to himself.

Prologue
Quote
Thus we shall define the soul as follows: that which precedes everything.

Kelhuss
Quote
But what came before , the Dûnyain had learned, was inhuman

If the soul precedes everything, and what came before is inhuman, then what's that say about the soul? And, the soul being what the fight is about in these books, I found that very interesting.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer
Post by: H on December 01, 2015, 01:28:11 pm
Quote
Thus we shall define the soul as follows: that which precedes everything.

Kelhuss
Quote
But what came before , the Dûnyain had learned, was inhuman

If the soul precedes everything, and what came before is inhuman, then what's that say about the soul? And, the soul being what the fight is about in these books, I found that very interesting.

Well, it makes sense, in that the soul proceeds from the Outside and is not a product of conception (I wouldn't say birth, because in utero I would imagine you are still souled) but rather seems to be a union of the Outside and the womb at conception?

This would be why birth still happened under the No-God, yet, all were stillborn because the connection between the womb and the Outside had been severed (or shunted, or blocked).

In other words, it is the Outside that proceeds everything?  So, is Kellhus manipulating the Outside, or being manipulated by it?
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer
Post by: MSJ on December 01, 2015, 03:03:41 pm
At this point, and what we of the rest of the story, I'd have to say Kellhus is manipulating the Outside. Thanks for putting into perspective H. That makes sense, and I'd love to know exactly what the Outside is.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer
Post by: Camlost on December 01, 2015, 03:31:39 pm
"And in the gloom of a faltering fire, Leweth slowly drew Anasurimbor Kellhus into his own descending rhythms---slower breath, drowsy eyes"

Leweth (or one working through him) hypnotized Kellhus in this scene. Kellhus was just conditioned to think otherwise in the hypnosis.

I love the catch on Kellhus' blunder and egotism in thinking the forest belonged to him.

Does your version have Leweth hypnotizing Kellhus, or did you just misread my quote? Because that would be a massive discrepancy, absolutely change how that scene is read.

Quote
For Kellhus the threat existed only in the fear manifested by the trapper. The forest was still his.
This is quite the conceit, even for one of the Conditioned; especially one who very nearly became consumed by the chaos of it. The entire prologue seems like a series of colossal missteps by Kellhus. It's a wonder he makes it.

Is it mere coincidence that a group of Sranc are hanging out around an ancient Kuniuric relic? Are they genuinely in there area solely to pilfer Leweth's runs?

On Kellhus' mistakes: realize he doesn't actually "make it" in the sense that he survives of his own ability.  Leweth is the one who saves him, otherwise he is dead in the snow there.  The greatest question is how deep does Moënghus' conditioning of Kellhus' path run?  Alternatively, how guided is Kellhus by things Outside?  I think that is a very deep tension in the whole first three books we should keep an eye on.  On that, Leweth's finding him is no coincidence.  Leweth being camped near those ruins is no accident.  The Sranc being nearby is also no accident, as it brings Mekeritrig into (or back into) conditioned ground.
I just meant "makes it" in so far as survives the prologue despite his many blunders. First he nearly succumbs to the chaos of the forest, then he insists on tracking the Sranc and leaving the dogs behind despite Leweth's admonishment that the Sranc run down everything, and finally gets himself into a battle with a Nonman and ultimately is confronted with sorcery. At nearly every turn Kellhus is  vastly underestimating his circumstances and only narrowly escaping. In his flight from the Sranc he even out distances the area of forest that he knows, relying on Leweth to direct him to the ruins.

Quote
A powerful voice rang out in Kuniuric
It seems odd to me that the Nonman's first attempt at communication would be in the language of a long dead civilization. Unless I'm mistaken and it is still used amongst the North? I almost wonder whether their encounter was as much happenstance as it appears. Compound this excerpt with the Sranc prints near the Anasurimbor stele and it seems less likely it was chance.

I think that since Scott let slip that the Nonman is Mekeritrig and also considering that Scott said it was a mistake to tell us that, means that one, there is no chance this meeting was just a coincidence, and, two, that the fact that it's Mekeritrig is significant.  The reason he could be shouting in Kuniuric though is the same reason why he is prowling around Kuniuric ruins: he is reliving the past, trying to remember something, or someone.

Quote
"I see that you are a student. Knowledge is power, eh?"
To what is he referring? A student of sorcery? The Gnosis? A student of the Logos? If the latter, wouldn't he know the Dunyain cult disappeared during the Apocalypse, presumably wiped out? How might it be the former if Kellhus bears no Mark?

This seems to speak to a Moe-Mek connection, perhaps he refers to the Dunyain?  We don't know what that word actually means.

There is the possibility that when Moënghus left Ishual, he met Mekeritrig on the way.  Or, more likely, is that Moënghus met him in the first place, prompting his dismissal from Ishual.  Perhaps it is actually to Moënghus that Mekeritrig speaks when he says, "I can see his blood in your face" not Celemomas or any of the other Ancient Anasûrimbors.
I'm willing to believe this. I don't know if I would necessarily claim that Moe directly has Mek traipsing up and down the North, but I wouldn't be surprised if a nearly identical scenario played out between the two during Moe's mission. Is Mek still aligned with the Consult these days?

"The flame twirled with abrupt incandescence."

Across all five books variants on the word incandescent only and exclusively are used to accompany and denote the presence of sorcercy.  The word is never used in the absence of sorcery except this line--which indicates sorcery is probably occurring unbeknownst to the POV.  The prologue concludes with kellhus definitively wrong about sorcery and this use of incandescence is within the context of a conversation in which he is wrong about sorcery. Leweths concise evaluations of the supernatural is accurate on all counts per later evidence and kellhus is wrong on all counts, in other words a good place to slip in a kellhus error of not recognizing the presence of sorcery.
Something occurred to me about this, and it may be nohingt, but assuming that this scene does involve sorcery, whose is it and what type? I can't speculate at whose it might be without defining what type and even doing that makes for little clarification. Being that it is a manipulation of the flame itself, one might infer that it is Anagogic in nature, but how prevalent is Anagogic sorcery in the North? However, and I hate to draw a parallel across such a span, we later see Kellhus use the Gnosis for his little face in the fire trick. This seems a stretch even for me, but why shouldn't someone else be able to perform it? Is it a meta-Gnostic Cant? Someone decry this for me.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: Madness on December 01, 2015, 03:48:59 pm
"And in the gloom of a faltering fire, Leweth slowly drew Anasurimbor Kellhus into his own descending rhythms---slower breath, drowsy eyes"

Leweth (or one working through him) hypnotized Kellhus in this scene. Kellhus was just conditioned to think otherwise in the hypnosis.

I love the catch on Kellhus' blunder and egotism in thinking the forest belonged to him.

Does your version have Leweth hypnotizing Kellhus, or did you just misread my quote? Because that would be a massive discrepancy, absolutely change how that scene is read.

Pretty sure locke has reorganized the sentence to emphasize the Dunyain Fallibility Hypothesis.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer
Post by: H on December 01, 2015, 03:59:17 pm
At this point, and what we of the rest of the story, I'd have to say Kellhus is manipulating the Outside. Thanks for putting into perspective H. That makes sense, and I'd love to know exactly what the Outside is.

I'm not so sure.  I feel like Kellhus thinks he is manipulating the Outside.  We are constantly presented with the idea that Kellhus doesn't make mistakes, but we know from all our rereads and research that he does.

I think maybe this is why Moënghus regards him as insane, attempting to harness the Outside might be impossible, regardless of power-level.

"And in the gloom of a faltering fire, Leweth slowly drew Anasurimbor Kellhus into his own descending rhythms---slower breath, drowsy eyes"

Leweth (or one working through him) hypnotized Kellhus in this scene. Kellhus was just conditioned to think otherwise in the hypnosis.

I love the catch on Kellhus' blunder and egotism in thinking the forest belonged to him.

Does your version have Leweth hypnotizing Kellhus, or did you just misread my quote? Because that would be a massive discrepancy, absolutely change how that scene is read.

I, for one, am not buying Leweth as a mastermind here, I think he is just yet another pawn.

I'm willing to believe this. I don't know if I would necessarily claim that Moe directly has Mek traipsing up and down the North, but I wouldn't be surprised if a nearly identical scenario played out between the two during Moe's mission. Is Mek still aligned with the Consult these days?

I don't know, but my guess is no, not really.  In fact, I have a feeling he never really was in the sense that he agreed with them and was working toward their agenda.  I think the whole time, it's been about his selfish desire for memory and he always just put himself where he could spur the greatest atrocities on (thereby remembering the most).
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: Wilshire on December 01, 2015, 04:57:41 pm
I have a lot of the same written down as you guys. Not a ton to add to the above beyond what I've been through before elsewhere.

A few more though
Genrelka is mentioned as the Emperor or nothing. Thought that was clever.

Pg 11 - mentions kellhus ability to anticipate thought and re-enact the movements of souls was something to come later.
This may imply it's an ability unique to Kellhus, to Dunyain who enter the world, it was a skill not taught to kellhus, or something else. Just seems odd.

Pg17 Leweth "nods sagely", a term clearly defined later by Akka to mean a gesture or pantomime to be seen as more knowledgeable than one is.

Pg18, I agree, first we see kellhus whelming another.

P19 kellhus sees the script and is surprised the world is "older than the Dunyain"... uh, duh? I really get the feeling through a lot of this that it's not just Kellhus who is conceited, but really just all dunyain. They have some really weird gaps in the preternatural intelligence. Like, how to survive in the wild or thinking the wold is 2000 years old.

Pg28, specifically - OUR elju. So mr.sranc here held the memories of multiple nonmen? Or is our a gimmicky way to say MY to make Me here sound old-timey?

Love this chapter. So great.

And for funs, love the first scene with Akka to. I think the juxtaposition of the whore and Akka from the very start hilarious. Also, whore, anagke, Akka is the chosen one.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on December 01, 2015, 05:05:17 pm
H.,

I'm not saying Kelhuss is infallible, only I believe he can and is and has manipulated the Outside. Dont really want to get ahead of the conversation here, but on example of manipulating the Outside could be Serwe's heart or going to the Outside and hunting Chiprang. I believe Kelhuss is fully in control, only his decisions will come into question. There is plenty of evidence to say he's wrong about things.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: Madness on December 01, 2015, 05:10:35 pm
H.,

I'm not saying Kelhuss is infallible, only I believe he can and is and has manipulated the Outside. Dont really want to get ahead of the conversation here, but on example of manipulating the Outside could be Serwe's heart or going to the Outside and hunting Chiprang. I believe Kelhuss is fully in control, only his decisions will come into question. There is plenty of evidence to say he's wrong about things.

MSJ, beauty of the rereads is the way new thread topics just fall out of them. If you want to create that thread to discuss specifically or at some later time to remind yourselves, do so :).
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: H on December 01, 2015, 05:33:55 pm
P19 kellhus sees the script and is surprised the world is "older than the Dunyain"... uh, duh? I really get the feeling through a lot of this that it's not just Kellhus who is conceited, but really just all dunyain. They have some really weird gaps in the preternatural intelligence. Like, how to survive in the wild or thinking the wold is 2000 years old.

Well, I think this is  to illustrate how sheltered the Dunyain were.  They never even considered teaching and something that Kellhus probably never really thought about, even though it's very obvious.

Pg28, specifically - OUR elju. So mr.sranc here held the memories of multiple nonmen? Or is our a gimmicky way to say MY to make Me here sound old-timey?

I wonder if he uses the plural to refer to a fractured personality, perhaps?

H.,

I'm not saying Kelhuss is infallible, only I believe he can and is and has manipulated the Outside. Dont really want to get ahead of the conversation here, but on example of manipulating the Outside could be Serwe's heart or going to the Outside and hunting Chiprang. I believe Kelhuss is fully in control, only his decisions will come into question. There is plenty of evidence to say he's wrong about things.

I follow you there, what I'm saying is, there is no doubt he is manipulatating the Outside, the Cipphrang heads are literal proof of this.  My point is that I doubt his reach is as far or as strong as it is in Earwa.  In other words, I think he feels he is manipulating the Outside as he has Earwa, but I don't know that he really is.

I think this is why Moe is shocked by their encounter (even though he tries to hide it).  The idea that Kellhus can manipulate Earwa and the Outside against some sort of middle is audacious to say the least.  We'll have to see if he can pull it off.  I have my doubts.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: Camlost on December 01, 2015, 05:39:46 pm
P19 kellhus sees the script and is surprised the world is "older than the Dunyain"... uh, duh? I really get the feeling through a lot of this that it's not just Kellhus who is conceited, but really just all dunyain. They have some really weird gaps in the preternatural intelligence. Like, how to survive in the wild or thinking the wold is 2000 years old.

Two things I also noted in relation to this:
1)
Quote
Still emaciated but wearing the furs of kings, the Dunyain chiselled the sorcerous runes from the walls and burned the Gran Vizier's books
2)The first set of ruins Kellhus encounters:
Quote
But there was something in them, something not now, that bent Kellhus toward unfamiliar passions. When he brushed his hands across the stone, he knew he touched the breath and toil of Men--the mark of a destroyed people... Men... here in the stone. Old and untouched by the rigour of the Dunyain. Somehow they had resisted the sleep, had raised the work of hands against the wildnerness.
Who built this place?

We know Ishual remained hidden because of the glamour placed about it, but one of the firs things the Dunyain do when the get there is obliterate any suggestion of sorcery. How does it stay hidden for two millenia after that? I get that the North is vast and sparsely populated, but two thousand years is a very long time to not stumble across the last stronghold of the High Kings of the North..

Also, did the Dunyain simply forsake the rest of the world in pursuit of the Logos? I mean how could Kellhus not know that a history precedes the Dunyain? That which comes before determines what comes after right? It seems odd they'd drop an entire civilization from their history lessons.. And why is he surprised that it was fashioned by Men? If he is unaware of the Nonmen until his encounter with Mek and the Dunyain's experience with Sranc is likely encounters with roving tribal bands then who else could possibly have fashioned the ruins?

What is the "sleep"? Is this simply an article of Dunyain doctrine or are they spreading a false claim that all outside the walls "sleeps" or is unenlightened in the way they are?
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: Wilshire on December 01, 2015, 05:41:34 pm
Rest of chapter one, not much.

Pg41 Akka says he rarely questioned his ability ovet the years.
Pg42 Akka says he killed a Chish 1v1.
The's psssges are notable to me because I always feel like he plays the downtrodden fool the whole time. He actually does has some belief  in himself and we have proof of how powerful he is from the start, it seems.

Pg 46 from the skin spy, calls itself  "impossibly ancient"
Pg52 Akka says mandate lost contact with the consult 300 years ago
300 doesn't really seem impossibly ancient.

Pg44 mentions "incandescent unraveling of flesh and bone" when a sorcerer touches a chorae. Seems thus word is used from the start to describe all manner of chorae touched schoolmen, cosh or otherwise, right from the start.



Pg50 prophesy. See other topics lol. Potentially noteworthy - timing. Kellhus began his journey 3 to 6 months prior, not sure on timing for when he arrives in atrithau though. Changes correlate with info about cish, like moenghus' doing.

Speaking of, still a bit of wtf with the whole assassination. Akka just said his wards protected him from a Cish, seems odd that no warning was set off in the SS compound.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: Wilshire on December 01, 2015, 05:59:59 pm
Camlost:
Pretty sure thewhole glamor around Ishual is a theory that was never really supported intext, and later misquoted as confirmed but with proof never really showing up. If you could provide a quote...

The history thing bothers me a lot. How can they not be controlled by history if they purposefully ignore it. It's completely anathema to the entire Dunyain dogma.

His surprise of the ruins make sense if he thought Ishual the oldest human outpost... still odd though.



Aside, that which proceeds was alien... Nonmen quite literally proceeded men, even if not directly the men of Eanna since they came in and occupied their land, and therefore their histories (also, Tutelage).
H
Forgot about split personality. A likely explination.

Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: Camlost on December 01, 2015, 06:10:34 pm
I guess I made the mistake of thinking you guys were right lol. I'll keep an eye out for textual evidence as we read. I have a hard time believing a structure of that size stayed hidden that long..

Quote
Aside, that which proceeds was alien... Nonmen quite literally proceeded men, even if not directly the men of Eanna since they came in and occupied their land, and therefore their histories (also, Tutelage).
Another instance of why obliterate a history? Unless they are covering up the Tutelage in that sorcery is a largely chaotic element to quantify in terms of probability
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: H on December 01, 2015, 06:11:37 pm
We know Ishual remained hidden because of the glamour placed about it, but one of the firs things the Dunyain do when the get there is obliterate any suggestion of sorcery. How does it stay hidden for two millenia after that? I get that the North is vast and sparsely populated, but two thousand years is a very long time to not stumble across the last stronghold of the High Kings of the North..

Also, did the Dunyain simply forsake the rest of the world in pursuit of the Logos? I mean how could Kellhus not know that a history precedes the Dunyain? That which comes before determines what comes after right? It seems odd they'd drop an entire civilization from their history lessons.. And why is he surprised that it was fashioned by Men? If he is unaware of the Nonmen until his encounter with Mek and the Dunyain's experience with Sranc is likely encounters with roving tribal bands then who else could possibly have fashioned the ruins?

What is the "sleep"? Is this simply an article of Dunyain doctrine or are they spreading a false claim that all outside the walls "sleeps" or is unenlightened in the way they are?

Well, I think part of what kept Ishual safe was it's proximity to (probably) other Nonmen ruins and the fact that, well, no one would really care to hunt it down (because they didn't even know it was there).  As we are lead to believe, Sranc did occasionally wander there, only to be obliterated by Dunyain.  I'd bet the Dunyain were pretty active in patrolling the surrounding forest to make sure no one came too close.  That's probably what got Moe into trouble in the first place, because it wasn't just Sranc that came that time, Mek was there too.

Kellhus' lack of knowledge of history does rub me the same way, as being a bit silly, however, your quote about being "awake" leads me to think that he was tought that the world slept while the Dunyain were awake.  In other words, he probably thought that the men outside Ishual were little more than beasts, both unenlightened and primal, simply because if the Dunyain are "advanced" then non-Dunyain cannot be.  No doubt this is part of the Dunyain superiority complex, all part of what will make them "superior human beings."

It's like what early Modern explorers must have felt stumbling upon the ruins of Machi Picchu or the like.  The narrative had been that these were "primatives" so such architecture was surprising.  I think that's a big part of what strikes Kellhus.

Speaking of, still a bit of wtf with the whole assassination. Akka just said his wards protected him from a Cish, seems odd that no warning was set off in the SS compound.

Am I dreaming this up, or did we know that it was actually the Consult who pulled off the assassination, under the auspices that it was the Cish, to drive them to join the Holy War?
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: Wilshire on December 01, 2015, 06:23:03 pm
Good thing we are on a reread then :)
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: H on December 01, 2015, 06:39:49 pm
Good thing we are on a reread then :)

I found it and I was wrong, at least, as far as we know it really was the Cish that did it.  How they did it though, I have no idea, some kind of meta-Psukhe or something I'd guess, probably something Moe dreamed up.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: Wilshire on December 01, 2015, 07:28:24 pm
Yeah their little dimensional door thing... weird.
And it was part of Moe's TTT. He needed to unite all nations, and most of then at least. The SS and Ainon would not have joined in without the assassination a decade prior.


Notes on chapter 2.

Meh, not a lot here for me to discuss. I was struck by how similar the trauma of the memory of the apocalypse, the suffering, and how Akka talks about living in a world with no present or future (only past),  so fully sounds like the world Erratic must live.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: H on December 02, 2015, 12:14:13 pm
The only thing that struck me is the character of Simas.  Since we know he will later be reavealed as a sin-spy, the question is, when was he replaced?

The options would seem to be either before this chapter, or after.  Considering though, how it seems to know things from the distant past, i.e. it mentions that it told Nautzera when Inrau went missing that it was not an accident but a defection, however one that might prove useful in the future, it would seem the the skin-spy predates that?  Or else, how would it know of that?
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: Wilshire on December 02, 2015, 12:34:53 pm
Yeah I have never placed in my mind the timeline if that replacement. Will have to pay close attention later to see if it becomes obvious for some reason.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on December 02, 2015, 12:56:46 pm
I read Chapter 2 last night and thought I found a clue that Simas is indeed a Skin-Spy at this time.

Quote
There’s strength in scepticism,” Simas continued. “Those who believe thoughtlessly in dangerous times are the first to die. But these are dangerous times, Achamian. More so than in many, many years. Perhaps dangerous enough to be sceptical even of our scepticism, hmm?” Achamian turned to him, caught by something in his tone. Simas’s gaze faltered. A small struggle darkened his face.

Meh, could be nothing. But, the small struggle is what made me think it was a clue that he was. Like the skin-spy thought Akka could tell something was amiss.

ETA: Ooh, and another thing, Nautzera talking about skeptics, as in those that think the Consult is no longer. Chasing ghosts. Wouldn't that be the main goal of Simas inside the the Mandate?
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: Wilshire on December 02, 2015, 02:40:41 pm
Yeah it could go either way. I worry about looking to hard though.
I decided in chapter 2 that it might still be the real slim shady. Could still go either way.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on December 02, 2015, 02:54:30 pm
I absolutely agree Wilshire. It was just something that struck me, as I was looking to see if Simas is a Skin-Spy at the moment. I really enjoy this type of reread, taking it slow and discussing the nuances and hidden gems. First time I've done a group reread and I just hope we dont go lax on offering insights and new finds.

ETA: I'd like Camlost to create a new thread every Sunday and the amount to be read and discussed. Make it easier and I know how much time I have to really look for new clues. It helps, and Camlost has done a great job organizing this. Appreciate your efforts Camlost!
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: locke on December 02, 2015, 03:11:18 pm

Good thing we are on a reread then :)

I found it and I was wrong, at least, as far as we know it really was the Cish that did it.  How they did it though, I have no idea, some kind of meta-Psukhe or something I'd guess, probably something Moe dreamed up.
moenghus later refers to as translating, SS later describes what moe calls translating as a door of light being opened, and cishaurim coming through the door.  Meta psukhe for certain.


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Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: H on December 02, 2015, 03:15:54 pm
Well, my first thought is that his actions don't really seem suspicious. 

Yet, the end of the chapter basically tells us that someone has infiltrated the Mandate.  This means either Simas has already been replaced, or there is another sleeper.  Since we never learn of another, seems that it must be Simas the whole time.  My best guess is that it is in deep cover.  It was probably instructed to do nothing that would even possibly seem like Simas wouldn't do.

It makes sense, the Simas agent is absolutely the Consult's most valuable asset, being supremely distinct from the other skin-spies we ever see.  Risking it for low-value targets would be a very bad idea.  As it stands, since the Consult has eyes (and ears) on the Mandate and the Mandate has no eyes on the Consult, there is no reason to exposed Simas to even the smallest of scrutiny.

Consider the next chapter though, even though I have yet to reread it, all the clues point to Aurang already knowing about Akka in Sumna and about Inrau.  Therefor, the leak was in the Quarum, leaving again, only the possibility that Simas is already replaced, or that there are two high ranking Mandati replaced.

A second replacement seems highly unlikely though, considering how rare we know the Simas agent to be.  At least, this is how it seems to me...


Good thing we are on a reread then :)

I found it and I was wrong, at least, as far as we know it really was the Cish that did it.  How they did it though, I have no idea, some kind of meta-Psukhe or something I'd guess, probably something Moe dreamed up.
moenghus later refers to as translating, SS later describes what moe calls translating as a door of light being opened, and cishaurim coming through the door.  Meta psukhe for certain.

What then would you think of the possibility that the meta-psukhe could be responsible for "fire incident" with Leweth?  Could it be that Moe was checking in on his plan?
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: geoffrobro on December 02, 2015, 03:26:44 pm
I read Chapter 2 last night and thought I found a clue that Simas is indeed a Skin-Spy at this time.

Quote
There’s strength in scepticism,” Simas continued. “Those who believe thoughtlessly in dangerous times are the first to die. But these are dangerous times, Achamian. More so than in many, many years. Perhaps dangerous enough to be sceptical even of our scepticism, hmm?” Achamian turned to him, caught by something in his tone. Simas’s gaze faltered. A small struggle darkened his face.



I read Chapter 2 last night and thought I found a clue that Simas is indeed a Skin-Spy at this time.

Quote
There’s strength in scepticism,” Simas continued. “Those who believe thoughtlessly in dangerous times are the first to die. But these are dangerous times, Achamian. More so than in many, many years. Perhaps dangerous enough to be sceptical even of our scepticism, hmm?” Achamian turned to him, caught by something in his tone. Simas’s gaze faltered. A small struggle darkened his face.

Meh, could be nothing. But, the small struggle is what made me think it was a clue that he was. Like the skin-spy thought Akka could tell something was amiss.

ETA: Ooh, and another thing, Nautzera talking about skeptics, as in those that think the Consult is no longer. Chasing ghosts. Wouldn't that be the main goal of Simas inside the the Mandate?

that quote is a paradox isnt it? " sceptical even of our scepticism"
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on December 02, 2015, 03:44:34 pm
geoffrobro, yes, but Simas the Skin-Spy is different, an anomaly so to say. He gained a soul and would therefore be able to grasp a paradox. Because, I often wondered how a Skin-Spy, with no soul would not be detected by the others in the Mandate. Because if you use sorcery, you gain a mark. No soul=no Mark.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: Wilshire on December 02, 2015, 03:47:50 pm
H, locke's general stance around here is pretty much moenghus is behind everything

Geoffrobro, I don't think that is a paradox. A bit convoluted, but not paradoxical. He's just saying he's unsure of his own feelings. Like when your intellect tells you one thing but you feel something else.

Msj, good point. Being souless is cited as why skin spies can not grasp a paradox. A spy with a soul would not have this trouble. Since you need a soul for sorcery, Simas shouldn't have an issues, spy or otherwise
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on December 02, 2015, 04:59:12 pm
I'd say with 100% certainty Simas is a Skin-Spy at this point. Here's why. At the end of the chapter, when Nautzera and Simas are discussing if they told Akka enough to keep him safe, they mention that the Mandate had been infiltrated. It why's there spies were being outed left and right. Simas is the traitor.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: Wilshire on December 02, 2015, 05:57:55 pm
Yeah I kind of forgot about that. The mandate informants wouldn't be being hunted with such great success if not for a traitor in the quorum.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: locke on December 03, 2015, 12:07:36 am
Why do we think the consult was eliminating mandate spies right on the cusp of the Holy war? What's the motive in moving against them for the consult at this time? The consult doesn't try to kill aka they just monitor his movements.

Doesn't add up.
Yeah I kind of forgot about that. The mandate informants wouldn't be being hunted with such great success if not for a traitor in the quorum.
Before WLW, I would said the leweth fire incident was definitely moe, after kell dabbling in fire watching magic, it could be some other agency.  But moe is the likliest option,  the prologue is pretty clear throughout that kellhus path soutg is carefully conditioned, moe wouldn't leave the most dangerous part if the journey unwatched.



Well, my first thought is that his actions don't really seem suspicious. 

Yet, the end of the chapter basically tells us that someone has infiltrated the Mandate.  This means either Simas has already been replaced, or there is another sleeper.  Since we never learn of another, seems that it must be Simas the whole time.  My best guess is that it is in deep cover.  It was probably instructed to do nothing that would even possibly seem like Simas wouldn't do.

It makes sense, the Simas agent is absolutely the Consult's most valuable asset, being supremely distinct from the other skin-spies we ever see.  Risking it for low-value targets would be a very bad idea.  As it stands, since the Consult has eyes (and ears) on the Mandate and the Mandate has no eyes on the Consult, there is no reason to exposed Simas to even the smallest of scrutiny.

Consider the next chapter though, even though I have yet to reread it, all the clues point to Aurang already knowing about Akka in Sumna and about Inrau.  Therefor, the leak was in the Quarum, leaving again, only the possibility that Simas is already replaced, or that there are two high ranking Mandati replaced.

A second replacement seems highly unlikely though, considering how rare we know the Simas agent to be.  At least, this is how it seems to me...


Good thing we are on a reread then :)

I found it and I was wrong, at least, as far as we know it really was the Cish that did it.  How they did it though, I have no idea, some kind of meta-Psukhe or something I'd guess, probably something Moe dreamed up.
moenghus later refers to as translating, SS later describes what moe calls translating as a door of light being opened, and cishaurim coming through the door.  Meta psukhe for certain.

What then would you think of the possibility that the meta-psukhe could be responsible for "fire incident" with Leweth?  Could it be that Moe was checking in on his plan?

Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: Wilshire on December 03, 2015, 12:20:01 am
Why do we think the consult was eliminating mandate spies right on the cusp of the Holy war? What's the motive in moving against them for the consult at this time? The consult doesn't try to kill aka they just monitor his movements.
Who can fathom the consult... But more importantly, if not the Consult, then there is a Mandate defector, which makes far less sense. Who else could hunt and kill all of the Mandate's informants?
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on December 03, 2015, 12:44:52 am
Why do we think the consult was eliminating mandate spies right on the cusp of the Holy war? What's the motive in moving against them for the consult at this time? The consult doesn't try to kill aka they just monitor his movements.
Who can fathom the consult... But more importantly, if not the Consult, then there is a Mandate defector, which makes far less sense. Who else could hunt and kill all of the Mandate's informants?

Right, its Simas. Who else would know the locations of all Mandate spies.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: locke on December 03, 2015, 02:06:35 am
Why do we think the consult was eliminating mandate spies right on the cusp of the Holy war? What's the motive in moving against them for the consult at this time? The consult doesn't try to kill aka they just monitor his movements.
Who can fathom the consult... But more importantly, if not the Consult, then there is a Mandate defector, which makes far less sense. Who else could hunt and kill all of the Mandate's informants?
You're just baiting me with that question.

Regardless who it was, eliminating mandate spies systematically just before the war began caused the result of the Mandate going full turtle for years and they did not participate in the affairs of the realm for the entire war. It scared them so bad the mandate improbably only had one agent monitoring the war and did not even attempt to replace their agent whilst he was incommunicado for exceedingly long stretches.

Who does that advantage and was such an... efficient... outcome intentional or coincidental?
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: Wilshire on December 03, 2015, 12:04:10 pm
How is it bait? Every question is bait for an answer... my mistake I guess. I'll answer your questions to make up for it.

Who does it advantage? Why, the consult of course. Keeping the mandate secluded is probably their main goal through the centuries, or at least the 300 years they haven't been seen. Why else disappear and control from shadows if not to avoid direct conflict? Sure, they are waiting for no-god, and they are allegedly close at this time. Seems like a perfect time to start hamstring-ing the Mandate.
But really it's advantageous to anyone that doesn't want the mandate involved for any reason. It could be literally any player. SS, empire, heathen, religious, dunyain. It seems every faction wants to control the holy war, and the mandate are a wild card. Best to keep them out. So, since that question doesn't yield answers, we must ask questions that eliminate possabilities...
I've got one: Who would have the power and capacity to hunt so efficiently? Unless we're going the unsubstantiated crackpot route, the only answer I can think of is The Consult.
If anyone has another idea, please share :)

As for whether an efficient outcome was intentional or not... I'm guessing yes it was. It's unlikely a major player would purposefully set out to be intentially inefficient.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: H on December 03, 2015, 01:10:58 pm
Why do we think the consult was eliminating mandate spies right on the cusp of the Holy war? What's the motive in moving against them for the consult at this time? The consult doesn't try to kill aka they just monitor his movements.
Who can fathom the consult... But more importantly, if not the Consult, then there is a Mandate defector, which makes far less sense. Who else could hunt and kill all of the Mandate's informants?
You're just baiting me with that question.

Regardless who it was, eliminating mandate spies systematically just before the war began caused the result of the Mandate going full turtle for years and they did not participate in the affairs of the realm for the entire war. It scared them so bad the mandate improbably only had one agent monitoring the war and did not even attempt to replace their agent whilst he was incommunicado for exceedingly long stretches.

Who does that advantage and was such an... efficient... outcome intentional or coincidental?

I think you kind of answered your own question though.

To me, it would seem that the Consult was very passive from the time the Mandate "lost contact" with them up to when Moe started to unveil the skin-spies.  Once that happened, they were drawn into Moe's TTT by the fact that they believed they needed the Cishuarim eliminated, because the simple infiltration couldn't be relied upon if they would detect the skin-spies.  This meant that being passive was not going to cut it, which is why Aurang, probably, wheels out the synthese and takes wing to the Three Seas to oversee the whole operation at this point.  There is also the fact that I think Aurang is very suspicious of how the skin-spies are being caught, which is why he is so interested in learning what's changed now.

Considering this, it makes sense, at least to me, that the Consult switching from passive to active means they'd be interested in cutting off any eyes (or ears) the Mandate would have on them, or more importantly, on those they are looking to manipulate.  The last thing I think they want is the Mandate catching wind of what they are after in the long run of this Holy War.  Even less so would they want an outright confrontation with a Mandate sorcerer.  We know that Akka's power level is pretty high, in reality, so trying to kill him directly would see like a bad idea.  Not only that, because a Chorae could be arranged, the reality is Akka as an agent is valuable to the Consult.  Since the Consult has ears in the Quarum, Akka is actually unwittingly an agent for the Consult.

In the end though, like you pointed out, the Mandate holes up and the Consult couldn't really have asked for more.  I think that Aurang knows full well how to manipulate the Mandate at least somewhat.  If we're right, and I think there is a decent about of circumstantial evidence that we might be, the Simas-agent has been in place for a pretty long time.  The Consult (or at least Aurang) knows pretty well what they are thinking.  While picking off the agents worked splendidly, and no doubt beyond what Aurang had planned, I don't think it was wholly accidental.

On the chapter 3:

Quote
How the God could be equated with the absence of hesitation was something Achamian had never understood. After all, what was the God but the mystery that burdened them all? What was hesitation but a dwelling-within this mystery?

Quote
He could turn this ship into a shining inferno, then walk unscathed across the surface of the water, and yet he could never be . . . certain.

This struck me as ringing true of Omnirom's point that the Mark is measure of "the inherent falseness of the assumption" or at least, the perceived falseness, due to the lack of certainty.  Is this part of what differentiates the Psukhe?  The Cishuaurim definitely seem certain.

Quote
The Chronicle of the Tusk was the most ancient and therefore the most thunderous voice of the past, so ancient that it was itself without any clear history—“innocent,” as the great Ceneian commentator Gaeterius had written.

Oh, Gaeterius, you silly, silly man.  If you only knew...

Quote
An iron hand clamped about the nape of his neck and yanked him forward, lifting his ear to Sarcellus’s lips.
“How I’ve longed to do that, pig,” the man whispered.

This seems to speak to me that Sarcellus has already been replaced.  We know the skin-spies can see Seswatha in Akka and this goes right to that.  Another point that the Consult already knows about Akka and his mission and plan to use him.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: Wilshire on December 03, 2015, 01:15:38 pm
Chapter 3.

I found it odd that Achamian was so able to articulate his thoughts about the new Shriahs voice patterns. Probably a requirement for story telling, but it seemed that Achamian was almost aware of the super-humanness of his voice.  I'm probably just peering too deeply. (ie gone mad)

Maithanet is described as walking on foot from the deep south, and his mysterious origins being a great advantage. I feel like that ploy works out sj greatly that other non dunyain should be able to take advantage of it. But maybe it only really works because it's ubexpected, and because dunyain.

The Tusk says the False Prophet is the worst abomination. Is there a specific reference to a specific person, or I'd that used generally like 'antichrist' is used in the bible?

Edit:

H, I agree that scene makes it seem like Sarcellus is already replaced. I do t thinK his pig comment makes sense otherwise. However, since the skin-spies and identify Chigra, if possible he was speaking to that effect and did not know specifically of Akka.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on December 03, 2015, 01:30:44 pm
Sarcellus has already been replaced, and he's speaking to Seswatha not Akka. Also note everytime a Skin-Spy is near the POV notes the smell of jasmine or Myrrh or both. No time to quote but I will shortly.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: Wilshire on December 03, 2015, 03:03:03 pm
Please do find quotes MSJ.

Chapter 4.
"It is their strict custom to never begrudge travellers water, even if they me enemies" - all is fair in love and war then.

Esmi mentions that she has heard Akka speaking strange tongues in his sleep. Casting spells while asleep in the Quya tounge?

Akka on Maithanet "to canny to be what he seems". Well, he's not wrong.


Inrau's death is such an incredible scene. This time around, lots of strange sorcereries I missed before.
"She can before him" Inrau says this when considering the movements of his soul. What an odd phrasing. Where might have this dunyain phrase come from. We're the Dunyain once part of the thousand temples?
"Run.... No" to bad Onkis spoke directly to Inrau, answering his prayers, but he did not recognize.

"The uncertainty, always so powerful within him, was snuffed out". I believe this line implies Onkis had been directly involved Iin his life for quite some time, but right here abandons him to his fate.

Inrau does not initially see the mark on the Synthese. When he does he describes it as something minor. I think think he is inconsistent with how it's described later.

Inrau casts something on the heart after its ripped out of Mujonish. After this, it is given some strange qualities that have sparked conversation in the past, specifically the drops of blood cracking stone. I think the fact that it has been esorcelled has been missed or omitted from those conversations.

A chorae touches Inrau directly on the cheek, no barrier of any kind. Direct skin contact, and he lives with only a small abrasion and a tiny bit of localized salting. This is the first I've realized that.

Noteworthy spells: sorcerous  speed, hands punching through metal and bone, burning blood and blood breaking stone (all these from Inrau). From synthese, levitate, water choking, silvery bubbles, water/drowning [might all be one spell], Relent potentially a can't of compulsion.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: locke on December 03, 2015, 04:07:21 pm
Selection bias, but if there is another player, a second foundation, and moe and kellhus are tools within a greater design then they could be orchestrating events such that the known factions and kahiht are simply playing their parts Ina complex viramsata. Rereading, I feel like it is so far ambiguous enough to suggest the possibility of a second foundation but then again, why (on my part) desire to imbue this sensation with agency, what I could be noting is perhaps nothing more than the author slipping in the presence of the thousandfold thought and lacks agency.

But my larger point was whether those killing mandate spies and skin spies are part of an unknown faction or the result of the consult and cishaurim as we believe, both actions seem well controlled and timed to yield specific useful outcomes.

So what I was getting at was that it doesn't matter if the consult was killing mandate spies or if someone else was (and legit freaking out Simas as well as nautzera) because if the consult did it, they were directly manipulated into it to yield the mandate turtle outcome, and if the consult did not do it, the mandate were manipulated into the turtle outcome as well.

As for who might be killing mandate spies, well we know one mandate spy who had a 1 on 1 battle with a power capable of killing a mandate spy and did not succomb. Perhaps that was an assassination attempt within the larger program of assassinating mandate spies?


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Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: The Lost Dunyain on December 03, 2015, 04:13:04 pm
Great analysis guys! This is my second re-read of the book and before I knew it, I had blasted through the entire part I and half of part II. I am still amazed at how well-written and deep this series is, with fantastic world-building and complex plotting backed up by strong philosophical themes. Not to forget insane characters and epic battles.

Anyways, one thing that stuck me was the issue of forgetting ancient things and events. We know that the non-men try to create situations to jog their memories and remember ancient traumatic events of their past. On the other hand, we have Seswatha broadcasting all the traumatic events of the first apocalypse in the dreams of the mandate schoolmen every night, to make sure that they do not forget them. Couldn't the non-men have used a similar mechanism to ensure that they do not forget their past? I think we still don't know how (or why) the mandate schoolmen have their dreams, but could this require some form of magic that is even beyond the non-men? This could also be related to the eljus used by non-men. Maybe a sorcerous elju has the power to remember and then broadcast events in perfect detail?
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: Wilshire on December 03, 2015, 04:23:31 pm
Sorcery involved in eljus seems reasonable. Not sure how else you might get a sranc to function as a holder of menories.

I think i see what your getting at locke, but that's too many circles with circles for me to discuss coherently. Just looks like a fractal to me, you can keep zooming in but the pattern remains. Hidden plots with hidden plots, ad infinitum.

Edit
Also, locke I think you mentioned about Kellhus having some trauma to incite the sorcerous vision. Are there any other instances of this happening? I read the scene with Akka first seeing the Onta in this first part, and he was just looking over a beautiful vista.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: rnblut on December 03, 2015, 08:02:37 pm

"Right, its Simas. Who else would know the locations of all Mandate spies."

The other person would the Shriah who was busy uncovering the emperor's spies at least in Summa.  Also the "tell" of Simas as the skin spy is his reading in the dim light.  A similar "tell" comes up when the emperor's nephew walks up the stairs with Skeos (sp?).
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on December 03, 2015, 09:39:01 pm
Geshrunni and Skin-Spy:

Quote
The Javreh Captain smiled. Maybe he’s just a fool. A dangerous, drunken amiability seized his manner. He walked up to the man, placed a callused hand on his padded shoulder. He could smell jasmine.

Sarcellus, with Akka and Inrau:

Quote
The Shrial Knight negotiated the intervening tables and patrons in a brusque manner, pausing once to firmly press a stumbling teamster from his path. He was lean and patrician tall, clean-shaven with short jet -black hair . The white of his elaborate tunic seemed to shrug off every shadow, but for some reason his face did not. He arrived bearing the scent of jasmine and myrrh.

Those are the ones in I've come across so far, I believe I have others highlighted throughout the books.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: Wolfdrop on December 03, 2015, 10:36:22 pm
I think Sarcellus had been a skin-spy for a long time.

The skin-sky who impersonated him first, Gaortha, has his own TTT glossary entry, whereas the entry for the real Cutias Sarcellus gives his year of death as 4099, some 11 years before his encounter with Achamian or Geshrunni.

Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on December 04, 2015, 03:25:11 am
As to who would be killing Mandate spies the answer is clearly the Consult. Think about it, they are positioned everywhere. Skeaos, has the Emperor's ear, Sarcellus that of the Shriah, the King of High Anion is himself a Skin-Spy. They have Simas in the Mandate and are using him to eliminate the only people in all of the Three-Seas that even believe in the Consult. One thing does bother me about it though, why let Akka live?

Also, they can see Seswatha through them. So they know who's Mandate right off the bat.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: H on December 04, 2015, 12:02:43 pm
Those are the ones in I've come across so far, I believe I have others highlighted throughout the books.

There are a couple more:

Quote
But she recognizes the smell: myrrh through the reek of entrails...

Soma.

So there is a definite connection.

On the Mandate spies, even the sin-spy that kills Geshrunni says:

Quote
“Mercy?” the thing laughed. “Mercy is a luxury of the idle, fool. The Mandate has many eyes, and we have much plucking to do.”
Where’s my face?

They aren't just eliminating the eyes the Mandate has, they are replacing them as well.

I read chapter 4, nothing really struck me though.

One thing does bother me about it though, why let Akka live?

Also, they can see Seswatha through them. So they know who's Mandate right off the bat.

My theory would be that with Simas in the Quarum, Akka is really, in effect, an unwitting double agent of the Consult.  Not only that, but the spy you know is much better than the spy you don't.  Why not allow Akka to prowl around?  Anything he finds will be known the the Consult, so if it is potentially harmful, he could be eliminated then.  Realize Aurang's plan is actually pretty good, since it gives them a heads up on Kellhus they wouldn't have had otherwise.  Sure, it falls apart later, but there is no way Aurang could have foreseen everything.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on December 04, 2015, 08:50:15 pm
Quote
They aren't just eliminating the eyes the Mandate has, they are replacing them as well.

But, how can the impersonate a sorceror without a soul, and therefore without the Mark? As far as we know Simas is a total anomaly.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: geoffrobro on December 05, 2015, 02:06:12 am
I'm sorry if I am backtracking here but my greater question is why was the "rotund" skin-spy framing Achamian  with the murder and removing  of the faces of SS  slaves? He killed Geshrunni  after he gave akka the info of the SS  secret war with the Cishaurim.
Let's say it was part of Simas' plan to kill or get rid of mandate spys, but he is also aiding the SS. If akka  hadn't been called back to Atyersus  he would of most likely  died in that setup in Carythusal  and not later on when confronted  in the Holy war.
Or was the meeting with Geshrunni  the setup, just akka could get that info to give to the mandate. But why remove his face?
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: Wilshire on December 05, 2015, 02:54:01 am
Like H said, they are likely replacing the spies, not just killing them.

It would be awkward if the body showed up, so they removed his face... Didn't work that time but this was probably the plan.
Alternatively, framing Akka so that the SS knows that the Mandate or someone is spying on them. Anything to make the Mandate look bad.

No direct confrontation between the Consult and Mandate at this point. They didn't remain hidden for 300 years by do something obvious like killing a sorcerer of the rank.

Probably incidental that Akka was able to get some info out of Geshrunni before he was killed. Or, its possible that the Consult didn't realize that Geshrunni would prove to have any useful information. Once they found out he was going to be a good source of information, it was time for him to die.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: Madness on December 05, 2015, 07:39:57 am
The only thing I've been compelled to post thus far but this should be a fairly innocent observation.

There's been a bunch of debate over the years as to why the skin-spies remove the faces of their targets. It's kind of settled on the consensus that it was a complicated idea to supplant people, later retconned. However, Bakker has a cheeky note tucked into one of Eleazaras' POVs about another faceless corpse that was discovered in Carythusal, preceding Geshrunni. And it's has always made me wonder if maybe the skin-spies deface their marks so that their bodies aren't later identified, and so aren't assumed missing or dead, and that that first corpse was in fact the noble Chepheramunni, who refuses the lure of Chanv (and who ironically is not identified by Kellhus because of the mask worn by the Ainoni for their obsession with jnan, which Esmenet later appropriates for her showdown with Maithanet).

EDIT: Of course, I didn't bother to read Wilshire's post where he said exactly that with about a tenth of the words.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: Wilshire on December 05, 2015, 04:06:59 pm
Ah yes. I had forgotten about the other corpse that is mentioned later. I agree that the nameless corpse seems to be implied to be Chepheramunni, at least to the reader. Seems to be no real reason to mention it otberwise. Chekhov's gun and all that. [Growing our epileptic trees].

I didn't mention the retcon idea because it seems to have a reasonable explication in-text. Maybe not the original context, but not wholly ridiculous
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: Madness on December 05, 2015, 05:59:23 pm
The Epileptic Forest!
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on December 05, 2015, 07:30:10 pm
Camlost, do you think its ok if we start the thread for Part II? I'm probably getting ahead of things though.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on December 05, 2015, 08:42:50 pm
Huh, I never made the Chephrunni connection. That's obviously the obvious choice for who it would be. I dont believe the Skin-Spy was trying to frame Akka in anyway. That was a pretext for the SS to take Akka. Though, they clearly believed it to be true. Crazy how so many factions are being played and fooled all at once, it makes the upcoming books that much more intriguing.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: Wilshire on December 05, 2015, 08:59:50 pm
MSJ, you can make a new topic if you are ahead. Name it thusly and people will find it.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: Camlost on December 05, 2015, 09:35:37 pm
What Wilshire said. It's been a long ass week for me, so I haven't been able to keep up with posting.  I like what I've been reading though. It's amazing how much you miss when you're away from the internet for a few days lol
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: locke on December 06, 2015, 04:59:15 am
From my last time I read it I figured that they were just disguising the bodies with the face removal, no retcon needed, never made the ceph connection though.


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Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: locke on December 08, 2015, 11:20:37 pm
Ganrelka was burned, ties into what we learn about funeral rites in book five. Note the phrasing about his ashes not having time to swirl up.  Did the Dunyain make some anasurimbor qirri?
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: Inkorot on December 12, 2015, 02:01:11 pm
If the north is full of Sranc, isn't it a bit strange that Kellhus could travel for months without meeting any?
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: Wilshire on December 12, 2015, 02:35:53 pm
You might be interested in this thread
http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=1164.msg13371#msg13371

Though I'd arguing that a lone man in the deserted forests wouldn't have too much trouble avoiding sranc. It's not like the Mop or a big party of travelers. Certain things draw in sranc, and while slightly fortunate I don't think it's particularly extrordinary either.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: locke on December 13, 2015, 05:03:11 am
If the north is full of Sranc, isn't it a bit strange that Kellhus could travel for months without meeting any?
Yes.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: Aural on December 13, 2015, 04:45:59 pm
It’s probably just a coincidence... lol
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: locke on December 14, 2015, 06:04:36 am
Coincidence in a meaningful world?
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: Wilshire on December 14, 2015, 04:43:29 pm
Yes
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: morkypep on December 14, 2015, 06:09:31 pm
First post here guys. I'm not as well versed in the series as some of you. This will be my first re-read and its been awhile since I first read the books. That being said, one of my favorite series ever and am totally looking forward to The Great Ordeal. Hopefully you guys don't mind a pleb like me asking a few questions.

First of which: do we know what Inrau found in Maithanet's apartments that upset him so ? I don't remember any reference to that later in the books.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: Wilshire on December 14, 2015, 06:26:25 pm
Welcome to the forum. I suspect you'll enjoy this reread more than your initial read. So many layers of revelation to be had.

You'll have to be more specific. I dont recall Inrau being upset about something he found, other than the Consult of course.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: H on December 14, 2015, 06:34:49 pm
First post here guys. I'm not as well versed in the series as some of you. This will be my first re-read and its been awhile since I first read the books. That being said, one of my favorite series ever and am totally looking forward to The Great Ordeal. Hopefully you guys don't mind a pleb like me asking a few questions.

First of which: do we know what Inrau found in Maithanet's apartments that upset him so ? I don't remember any reference to that later in the books.

Welcome.   Don't feel intimidated, we have all just happened to have read these books a long time ago, so we have the benefit of having rhuminated on all this for years and years.

On what he found, I always just assumed it was the knowledge that Maith was treating with the Scarlet Spires.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: morkypep on December 14, 2015, 06:39:56 pm
Quote
My life, he thought. My life.
Inrau lowered his face, tried to grimace away his weeping. If only he could forget. If only . . .
The Shriah. But how could it be?

Quote
Please! Let me forget this!

Quote
“No different, I suppose, from what you were doing in the Shriah’s apartments, hmm?”

I could be wrong, but the writing seems to imply that this takes place right after Inrau had been looking around in the Shriah's apartments and found something that he wants to forget.

Also, thanks for the warm welcoming guys ! I am excited about the reread and hope to get to your Dunyain level.... someday lol
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on December 14, 2015, 09:05:01 pm
Quote
My life, he thought. My life.
Inrau lowered his face, tried to grimace away his weeping. If only he could forget. If only . . .
The Shriah. But how could it be?

Quote
Please! Let me forget this!

Quote
“No different, I suppose, from what you were doing in the Shriah’s apartments, hmm?”

I could be wrong, but the writing seems to imply that this takes place right after Inrau had been looking around in the Shriah's apartments and found something that he wants to forget.

Also, thanks for the warm welcoming guys ! I am excited about the reread and hope to get to your Dunyain level.... someday lol

I wondered the same exact thing on every reread I've ever done. Its never confirmed what and your left to fill in the gap. As H said, the Scarlet Spires makes sense. But, I'm not so sure. I've previously had theories that the Dûnyain and the Consult are aligned, unbeknownst to Kelhuss. And as I'm going through my reread I can't shake that feeling again. Kel's meeting with Mek, the sranc staying away, and it seems to me that the Consult's and Dûnyain's line of thinking and goals are eerily similar. I dunno. Its just a feeling I get everytime I read TDTCB. Also, wouldn't it be great if Akka was vindicated for his initial feeling of a Maithenet/Consult alignment? Could this also have something to do with Maithenet's final words in WLW? Inrau could have found that connection.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: Bolivar on December 14, 2015, 11:36:08 pm
This is what makes the connection real for me:

Quote
If only he could have forgotten . . . forgotten what the Mandate had taught him. If he could’ve done that, then this last heartbreaking revelation would have been meaningless to him. If only Achamian had not come. The price was too high.

Throughout the trilogy, the aims of the Holy War and The Consult are the same and the skin spies seem to be working in Momemn to prevent the Ikurei from compromising it... I have more thoughts on that I want to post in The Emperor thread. But this passage really makes it look like Maithanet was aligned with the Consult.

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Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: morkypep on December 15, 2015, 02:25:53 am
This is what makes the connection real for me:

Quote
If only he could have forgotten . . . forgotten what the Mandate had taught him. If he could’ve done that, then this last heartbreaking revelation would have been meaningless to him. If only Achamian had not come. The price was too high.

Throughout the trilogy, the aims of the Holy War and The Consult are the same and the skin spies seem to be working in Momemn to prevent the Ikurei from compromising it... I have more thoughts on that I want to post in The Emperor thread. But this passage really makes it look like Maithanet was aligned with the Consult.

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You guys just blew my mind with the Consult and Dunyain alliance theory ! I agree with you Bolivar, i feel like this "heartbreaking revelation" cannot be the fact that the Scarlet Spires are joining the Holy War. This was discussed in the previous chapter and Inrau didn't seem so upset about it during that scene. He must have found something else out !

My only question on the theory is whether it is the Dunyain as a whole who could be possibly be aligned with the Consult, or just Moenghus; and also how this applies to Moenghus's plans for Kellhus and TTT. I really need to re-read that confrontation chapter at the end of TTT.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: locke on December 15, 2015, 02:39:29 am
INRAU probably found a connection between maithanet and the consult, but that does not prove collaboration nor alliance.

I've always found aurangs comment and inraus opening thoughts tantalizing but relatively inscrutable in indicating anything clearly.

Also kudos on finding aurangs comment about his night with esmenet, that nicely disproves the 12 foot alien rapist theory but not the possession/rape by proxy nor the bird+glamour rapist theory.

Who provided the golden coin, hmm?
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: Bolivar on December 15, 2015, 04:41:02 am
The one thing that could let Maithanet off the hook is if what Inrau found in his apartments pertained to the station of the Shriah in general and not Maithanet in particular.

I'm becoming more wary that the Thousand Temples might be one of the programs the Consult devised to subvert the Three Seas following the Apocalypse. I know a few over at Westeros were wondering why this religion wouldn't have any tenets or commentary on the Apocalypse, despite its founder being born in the years after the catastrophe, among the first following the stillbirths. It would make sense if Inri Sejenus' "reinterpretation" of the Tusk was intended to make it relevant again in the Three Seas, especially its condemnation of sorcery and the Nonmen. It would also make it all so ironic if pious characters like Proyas and all the men of the Tusk were really fighting on behalf of a race as demonic as the Inchoroi.

Already thinking on this, it stood out to me when Achamian described the Summoning Horns at Sumna as such:

Quote
The Summoning Horns, whose bottomless timbre so resembled the ancient war-horns of the Sranc, sounded from behind him.

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Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: H on December 15, 2015, 01:04:36 pm
Well, considering what we know of the Tusk, really, all Inrithism is partly a Consult ploy.

If Inrau found some connection between Maithanet and the Consult, what could it have been?  There could be the presumption that he did find this connection, since he connects his dismay to his Mandate knowledge and also it could be surmised that this is why the Consult kills him.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: Wilshire on December 15, 2015, 02:08:43 pm
The fact that the consult and moenghus seem to want the same thing at this point, mainly, the holy war to march on shimeh, makes it easy to feel like they might be working together in tdtcb.

However, since they end up clearly at odds by the end, I think it extremely unlikely. The Consult want the cishaurim destroyed for the same reasons the other schools fear them, but also because moenghus has been killing skin spies.

I also have trouble seeing why, if the Dunyain were working with any faction, why they would bother throwing together this holy war. It would be much easier to send an actual assassin, with proper information and training, than to do this whole bit. Further, if the consult were in league with the dunyain, what's the point of the epilogue of TWP? It just doesn't fit.

Locke, the golden coin dilemma is hilarious to me. I want to dismiss it as just author oversight, but now that you've brought it up I want it to be important. I also can't get the Monty Python bit with pigeons and coconuts out of my head to take it more seriously.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: H on December 15, 2015, 02:37:08 pm
The Sarcellus agent could easily be the source of the coin.  It is said by Esment several times how rich he seemed to be.  This means the coin would be nearby, rendering the problem of transport largely moot.  For all we know, Sarcellus agent could have been just outside the door.

There is of course the alternative theory of it simply grasping the coin by the husk.  Naturally, we will have to ask Bakker about the air-speed of an unladened Synthese to know for sure.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: Wilshire on December 15, 2015, 04:00:12 pm
WHAT DO YOU SEE?
WHAT.... is the average Airspeed velocity of an unladen Synthase?

a band of Earwan travellers seek passage across a bridge...
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: H on December 15, 2015, 04:07:05 pm
It'd be neat if the coin was really poignant, but I'm thinking it probably just isn't.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: Madness on December 15, 2015, 08:58:28 pm
First of which: do we know what Inrau found in Maithanet's apartments that upset him so ? I don't remember any reference to that later in the books.

These are the types of questions that I drive myself further insane by debating an answer, given the way my answers collapse ambiguity and mystery by giving indication of what comes after (or that lack).

However, my guess has always been that Inrau found proof of Maithanet's correspondence with his father, Moenghus - more horrifyingly known to Inrau and the Inrithi as Mallahet, especially as Aurang doesn't seem to know what Inrau found either. After all, Inrau already had his evidence that Maithanet did sincerely treat with the Scarlet Spires.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: locke on December 16, 2015, 12:59:55 am
First of which: do we know what Inrau found in Maithanet's apartments that upset him so ? I don't remember any reference to that later in the books.

These are the types of questions that I drive myself further insane by debating an answer, given the way my answers collapse ambiguity and mystery by giving indication of what comes after (or that lack).

However, my guess has always been that Inrau found proof of Maithanet's correspondence with his father, Moenghus - more horrifyingly known to Inrau and the Inrithi as Mallahet, especially as Aurang doesn't seem to know what Inrau found either. After all, Inrau already had his evidence that Maithanet did sincerely treat with the Scarlet Spires.
I've always suspected it was something along those lines, but why would moenghus commit anything to writing?
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: morkypep on December 16, 2015, 03:38:22 am
These are the types of questions that I drive myself further insane by debating an answer, given the way my answers collapse ambiguity and mystery by giving indication of what comes after (or that lack).

However, my guess has always been that Inrau found proof of Maithanet's correspondence with his father, Moenghus - more horrifyingly known to Inrau and the Inrithi as Mallahet, especially as Aurang doesn't seem to know what Inrau found either. After all, Inrau already had his evidence that Maithanet did sincerely treat with the Scarlet Spires.

This makes the most sense. The perfect explanation to what Inrau could have found that would explain his reaction. I will from here on out consider it canon.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: Madness on December 16, 2015, 03:59:13 am
I've always suspected it was something along those lines, but why would moenghus commit anything to writing?

He probably wouldn't. I can't imagine what Inrau could've found as proof but it seems the MacGuffin - that Maithanet treats with the Cishaurim - that would be too great a revelation for Inrau's character.

This makes the most sense. The perfect explanation to what Inrau could have found that would explain his reaction. I will from here on out consider it canon.

Lol - as you said, morkypep. It just seems to make sense.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: locke on December 16, 2015, 07:36:30 am
Why doesn't proyas recognize kellhus as looking like maithanet?
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: H on December 16, 2015, 11:05:35 am
Why doesn't proyas recognize kellhus as looking like maithanet?

Do they really look alike?  I thought Maithanet had darker skin and a black beard, Kellhus is fair skinned and blonde though, right?

My mental image of what everyone looks like is completely wrong, so I constantly have to go back to the books to remind myself what it's said they look like.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on December 16, 2015, 12:51:45 pm
Morkypep, I wouldn't go so far as considering anything we discuss as canon. I mean, that's usually a authorial decision.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: Wilshire on December 16, 2015, 12:59:20 pm
The pollution of non dunyain mothers. Is it at some point mentioned they look alike?
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on December 16, 2015, 01:14:01 pm
The pollution of non dunyain mothers. Is it at some point mentioned they look alike?

I think they would if it wasn't for Maithenet dying his hair and beard and his tan.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: H on December 16, 2015, 01:15:04 pm
I've always suspected it was something along those lines, but why would moenghus commit anything to writing?

He probably wouldn't. I can't imagine what Inrau could've found as proof but it seems the MacGuffin - that Maithanet treats with the Cishaurim - that would be too great a revelation for Inrau's character.

This makes the most sense. The perfect explanation to what Inrau could have found that would explain his reaction. I will from here on out consider it canon.

Lol - as you said, morkypep. It just seems to make sense.

Well, the issue I have with that explaination is it doesn't really square with that Inrau says about the revelation (my underline):

Quote
If only he could have forgotten . . . forgotten what the Mandate had taught him. If he could’ve done that, then this last heartbreaking revelation would have been meaningless to him. If only Achamian had not come. The price was too high.

So, why would him treating with the Cishaurim cause him to wish he forgot what the Mandate had thought him.

Invoking the Mandate would seem to implicate the Consult, but I'm still confused on what he could have seen that would have drawn a connection between the two.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: locke on December 16, 2015, 03:25:55 pm
Mandate also teaches dead languages, not just consult knowledge.


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Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: Wilshire on December 16, 2015, 03:29:58 pm
I still don't see a connection at all. His timeline starts with him entering a building. He hasn't found anything yet, and he is yearning to forget his allegiance and debt to his old teacher. He says as much.

At what point do you guys think he found something?

Edit
Sure the bird says he was in the shriah's apartment, but that hardly implies he found anything.

Inrau is a boy torn between loves. Between a man that saved his life, and a man he gave his life too. There are whole paragraphs of him mulling over this dilemma and then specifically crying to himself to forget
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: H on December 16, 2015, 04:28:11 pm
I still don't see a connection at all. His timeline starts with him entering a building. He hasn't found anything yet, and he is yearning to forget his allegiance and debt to his old teacher. He says as much.

At what point do you guys think he found something?

Edit
Sure the bird says he was in the shriah's apartment, but that hardly implies he found anything.

Inrau is a boy torn between loves. Between a man that saved his life, and a man he gave his life too. There are whole paragraphs of him mulling over this dilemma and then specifically crying to himself to forget

Well, his quote implies he found something, "then this last heartbreaking revelation" seems to imply a revelation after the Scarlet Spires information.

Mandate also teaches dead languages, not just consult knowledge.

So, perhaps correspondance with Moe(?) in Dûnyanic, which he would then be able to read, since he knows Kûniüri?
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: Wilshire on December 16, 2015, 05:11:55 pm
If you say so... but to me, the last revelation is simply the last revelation form the previous page. Inrau realizes that he would give anything, everything, pay any price, to repay his teacher. Also, he realized he believed I  the consult still, and that no price was to high to stop the second apocalypse.
It's all right there in the pages. His entire thought pattern is fragmented, spirals in on itself, and continously repeats. This is shown with the initial thought he gives us "my life". We start in the middle, but hes just repeating the same arguments and thoughts so it's fine.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: H on December 16, 2015, 06:10:30 pm
If you say so... but to me, the last revelation is simply the last revelation form the previous page. Inrau realizes that he would give anything, everything, pay any price, to repay his teacher. Also, he realized he believed I  the consult still, and that no price was to high to stop the second apocalypse.
It's all right there in the pages. His entire thought pattern is fragmented, spirals in on itself, and continously repeats. This is shown with the initial thought he gives us "my life". We start in the middle, but hes just repeating the same arguments and thoughts so it's fine.

Every time I reread that part, I get more confused than I was before.  I'll have to get to do a re-re-re-read again at some point.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: Wilshire on December 16, 2015, 06:17:45 pm
Trackless steppe
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: locke on December 16, 2015, 06:39:27 pm
The text is pretty clear he's just exited maithanets apartments and therin discovered an upsetting revelation.

Ignoring that just seems like wishful thinking. 
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: Wilshire on December 16, 2015, 06:55:12 pm
I thought I was just reading the text as written. My mistake I guess.  :(
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: locke on December 16, 2015, 07:03:05 pm
The text is only what we want to see :D;)
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: Wilshire on December 16, 2015, 07:07:43 pm
At least there's fodder for speculation as we wait a half dozen years for the last books.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: morkypep on December 16, 2015, 10:15:43 pm
I think the purpose of these "hints" is to give the reader another reason to think Maithanet is not all that he seems. It also makes sense from an authors perspective to reveal this mystery of these minor hints in the same trilogy. You give the reader the answers to the small mysteries which are really only relevant to the PON trilogy, while leaving the over-arching and large questions to be revealed in the subsequent series. Thus the most logical answer would be that he found out Maithanet is actually working with the Cishaurin / Moenghus and or that he is Moenghus's son.

Also, maybe i was wrong to use the word "canon" but what I meant was, until we are told otherwise in the text or by Bakker, I am going to believe this is the answer.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: H on December 17, 2015, 12:17:46 pm
Well, one of the few things I remember of my very first read (ages and ages ago) was that it seemed to me that Maithanet was working with the Consult.  So, maybe that it the point of that part, to draw us off what is really going on.

As to what he did find, I'm still not sure.  Maybe one day we can ask Bakker what he was aiming at there.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: locke on December 17, 2015, 04:08:02 pm
Well, one of the few things I remember of my very first read (ages and ages ago) was that it seemed to me that Maithanet was working with the Consult.  So, maybe that it the point of that part, to draw us off what is really going on.

As to what he did find, I'm still not sure.  Maybe one day we can ask Bakker what he was aiming at there.
Oh good point, I remember thinking that too.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: Bolivar on December 17, 2015, 08:41:02 pm
Yeah I just can't get around that line how, whatever it is he found, it would have been innocuous if not for his Mandate training. Maybe it was something sorcerous? I don't know, I think it's just supposed to go with the overall revelation that the Consult is real and they're involved in the Three Seas.

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Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: H on December 17, 2015, 09:00:21 pm
Yeah I just can't get around that line how, whatever it is he found, it would have been innocuous if not for his Mandate training. Maybe it was something sorcerous? I don't know, I think it's just supposed to go with the overall revelation that the Consult is real and they're involved in the Three Seas.

Yeah, but is it just window dressing by Bakker with no window?  We know that Maithanet didn't have anything to do with the Consult though, so I can't even think of anything that would have drawn Inrau to that conclusion.  This is fast becoming my personal "dragons wearing chorae," haha.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: themerchant on December 18, 2015, 06:58:49 am
Mandate also teaches dead languages, not just consult knowledge.


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This would be my guess. the thing they teach you is philosophy and language.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: locke on December 18, 2015, 10:09:15 pm
On inrau what did he find?
 I figured this out just now.
It's not important what he finds.
It's important how what he finds will allow achamian to be manipulated and primed and positioned.  What inrau finds is not important. What is important is that inraus death will make achamian into conditioned ground.

The key is, "Assist Drusas Achamian" letter that Proyas later receives from Maithanet.  Maithanet or those pulling the Maithanet strings, want Drusas  Achamian right where he is.

So what did Inrau find? Only what Maithanet wanted him to find.

Maithanet knew where Drusas Achamian was staying and his people knew that Inrau was contacting him. Maithanet is personally aware of Achamian because he asks Proyas directly about him.  Presumably, the Thousand Temples knew that Inrau was former Mandate and untrustworthy.

So. Why then is an untrusted functionary allowed anywhere near the Shriah's private quarters?  Because they let it happen. and Maithanet left a big old clue that only someone from the Mandate would recognize as a clue. 

Why let it happen?  Because Inrau is the lever that moves and conditions Achamian.  They know this on Atyersus, and Maithanet, being who he is, would know or figure that out as well.

So what's going on here?  I think the mandate needs to be prompted and prodded into place by Moenghus, and Moenghus needs to provide Kellhus a reliable Mandate tutor who won't report Kellhus. Otherwise, once Kellhus states his name, the mandate will swarm. and any spy will report him immediately.  Unless that spy has recent reasons to distrust the Mandate.  Problem: The mandate sorcerers don't distrust their school and have pretty perfect loyalty thanks to Seswatha.

So.

First, you identify a sorcerer with a weak spot; Achamian would stand out, he's a teacher who allowed a candidate to abandon the Mandate path before initiation. Then you leverage the situation so you can take advantage of the weak spot (if Inrau had went to be a steward in Cepharunni's household you would have arranged to send Akka that direction to be manipulated there).

Second, hunt down the Mandate spies and eliminate them one by one.  You do this right before the Holy War will be called. For this reason of dead spies, the Mandate recalls the not-hunted-down Drusas Achamian to send him to be their new operative in Sumna (you know the Mandate will send Akka (even though the Mandate knows it alienates him modestly to exploit Inrau) because they're desperate to get quick access into the Thousand Temples). 

Third, obviously, once the holy war is announced, Achamian is going to be sent to Momemn as he's the only active agent the Mandate has at this point, and they're already paranoid and turtled. But how do you manipulate that perfect Mandate loyalty Akka possesses because of Seswatha?  That's the big question.

The answer is that you leverage the alienation he feels at the Mandate for exploiting Inrau by having Inrau murdered. This makes Achamian actively distrust the Mandate--especially in regards to how they treat his students.

You have Inrau murdered (reported as suicide) by allowing him to spy and leaving evidence only he could recognize, you let him commit the crime first so you can later allow enough info to leak through Proyas so that Achamian knows Inrau died working at the Mandate's behest.  (note, Sarcellus may have been conditioned into murdering Inrau or Maithanet may have had another murder planned for Inrau that was 'foiled' by the Consult consultation Inrau witnessed, hard to say).

Boom. Achamian is betrayed by the Mandate and primed to be ultra-protective of his students right before Kellhus arrives. you've conditioned your way around the loyalty block of the Mandate and created a person who can teach your Anasurimbor without reporting the presence of a harbinger directly, instantly, back to the Mandate.

Additionally, but fairly irrelevant, note that the letter to Proyas arrives at almost the moment when Achmian is wrestling with whether or not to teach Kellhus sorcery.  Inconveniently, Achamian was kidnapped by the Scarlet Spires because that letter, providing evidence they believed Inrau a spy, would have tilted Achamian further against the Mandate at that moment.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: Bolivar on December 18, 2015, 11:50:46 pm
^ I'm down with this, especially after reading this passage this morning:

Quote
I gave them Inrau . . . Must I give them Kellhus too? No. He had told them what would happen to Inrau. He had told them, and they had refused to listen.

This is the argument with which his decision turned, the loss of Inrau. To me, this seems like as hell of a lot of positioning. Achamian was the perfect Mandati to teach Kellhus the Gnosis, just as he happened to be the only one who had a chance at infiltrating the Thousand Temples due to Inrau. And he was the ideal candidate to monitor the Holy War and find Kellhus, as they send him to resume spying on the Scarlet Spires, since he was previously assigned to them. Interestingly, he was also in Shimeh 8 years prior, during the Battle of Zirkirta  (perhaps Moenghus took note of him then?) Maithanet may have chosen Proyas as his confidant, due to his relationship with Achamian,  as well as the compact between Conriya and the Mandate.

However, this also makes the overlap between the Thousandfold Thought and the Consult an even deeper shade. The person who made all of this possible was Simas, the skin spy with a soul and the Consult's mole inside the Mandate.

Quote
Trust me when I tell you we’ve struck the proper proportion with Achamian. Was I wrong when I told you Inrau’s defection would prove useful someday?”

Useful to say the least! As Achamian's mentor, he may have been responsible for Achamian's convoluted career path, first as a royal tutor, to ingratiate him with Proyas, then a spy, then an instructor, allowing Inrau to leave, then a spy again, assigned to the Scarlet Spires, just long enough to uncover their war against the Cishaurim,  and right before they formally join the Holy War. While this could just be a fantasy author making their characters relevant to the plot, this is after a series where the lives and thoughts of characters have been premeditated and compelled by others.

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Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: themerchant on December 19, 2015, 12:12:18 am
Well i believe that Simas was a product of Moe. His discovery by Maitha allows them to immediately bring the Mandate onside. I think he is a conditioned skinspy, "re-programmed" by Moe. Or him existing is just a lucky break for Maithanet as it now gives him a pre-text to go collect the Mandate in TTT and sail together to annoint Kellhus.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on December 19, 2015, 12:56:23 am
Well i believe that Simas was a product of Moe. His discovery by Maitha allows them to immediately bring the Mandate onside. I think he is a conditioned skinspy, "re-programmed" by Moe. Or him existing is just a lucky break for Maithanet as it now gives him a pre-text to go collect the Mandate in TTT and sail together to annoint Kellhus.

That's good, I've never thought of Simas as a product of Moe. Adds a whole new layer to the conditioning Moe laid for Kellhus.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: locke on December 19, 2015, 05:15:18 am
Moenghus probably took a skin spy and then took the real simas and did meta soul magic to rip his soul from his original body and then bind his soul to the skin spy body. ;) just like the wathi doll, writ dunyain meta style.


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Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: Wilshire on December 19, 2015, 01:47:24 pm
I at least don't see why a soul couldn't be placed in a skin spy doll instead of a wathi doll. Might require some out of the box thinking, but seems reasonable. One drawback is it would be marked, but nbd if you use it to spy on sorcerers.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: MG on December 19, 2015, 07:31:41 pm
I at least don't see why a soul couldn't be placed in a skin spy doll instead of a wathi doll. Might require some out of the box thinking, but seems reasonable. One drawback is it would be marked, but nbd if you use it to spy on sorcerers.

you might (probably not) but you might even want a skinspy that has a soul of the Few but isn't marked.  if Maitha could spot a random person who was one of the Few but was never collected by the schools, rip the soul out, put in a skinspy, then you could have a pretty cool body guard.  put a chorae on that sonofabitch and you have an elite warrior who can see any big threats coming without giving away that they can see the threat.  Maitha could have one just sort of patrol the corridors

which brings me to--i wonder if skinspies can see each other as skinspies?  or smell?  lol, this is going to be the unintended upshot of eating sranc--the GO will smell like allies and the sranc will stop attacking
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: MG on December 19, 2015, 07:36:28 pm
@ locke - masterful!  i'm sure you have hit the nail on the flat part at the top!

perhaps one amendment?  maybe Maitha fed Inrau info that Maitha intended to fall into Consult hands.  Maitha may have seen that bird flapping about sometime or another.

scene: Maitha is changing robes.  Sees a bird outside the window.  Thinks, "WTF is that bird masturbating???"
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on December 20, 2015, 02:03:50 pm

which brings me to--i wonder if skinspies can see each other as skinspies?  or smell?  lol, this is going to be the unintended upshot of eating sranc--the GO will smell like allies and the sranc will stop attacking

Well, isn't it in TTT where their with Cnaüir and they are communicating by screaming? Tilting their head back and opening their face and letting out many reed gasp? Also, I think you hit the nail on the head with smelling. Esme remarks that it felt like Sarcellus was smelling her in their last scene together in his pavilion.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: themerchant on December 20, 2015, 10:52:05 pm
I at least don't see why a soul couldn't be placed in a skin spy doll instead of a wathi doll. Might require some out of the box thinking, but seems reasonable. One drawback is it would be marked, but nbd if you use it to spy on sorcerers.

Cish leave no mark :)

Also everything we know about a skin-spy with a soul is provided by Uncle Holy.

I have no idea what process was used to ensoul the skinspy (with ensoul meaning: give the ability to use the Gnosis). We have seen one process already with moving souls from one body to another, we've also seen a shearing of a soul by Mek on Ses, at the walls of Dagluish. Or a statement of intent to do so.

The red-flag for me was the fact that uncovering that skin-spy is key to maitha and the mandate teaming up and going together to Shimeh. The timing of maithanet arriving is ostensibly cause he learned of the Skin-spy from others, but he is also on timetable to arrive just as the events of shimeh climax.

Seems a rather nice coincidence for team TTT.

Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: themerchant on December 20, 2015, 11:04:44 pm

which brings me to--i wonder if skinspies can see each other as skinspies?  or smell?  lol, this is going to be the unintended upshot of eating sranc--the GO will smell like allies and the sranc will stop attacking

Well, isn't it in TTT where their with Cnaüir and they are communicating by screaming? Tilting their head back and opening their face and letting out many reed gasp? Also, I think you hit the nail on the head with smelling. Esme remarks that it felt like Sarcellus was smelling her in their last scene together in his pavilion.

That's the captured one i believe, in fact "they believe" is what it is screaming i think. One the Scarlet Spire weepers.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: H on December 21, 2015, 11:30:28 am
I'll buy what Locke is selling, for the most part.  I'm definitely on board with him finding only what Maithanet wanted him to find.

I don't think Maithanet and Moe could have planned for the Consult killing him, but it happened and the end result is nearly the same.

As for the Simas agent, if we follow this along as Moe created, then was this possibly the first attempt, or an proof of concept for soul-transfer, a la, Meppa?
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on December 21, 2015, 03:46:22 pm
I'll buy what Locke is selling, for the most part.  I'm definitely on board with him finding only what Maithanet wanted him to find.

I don't think Maithanet and Moe could have planned for the Consult killing him, but it happened and the end result is nearly the same.

As for the Simas agent, if we follow this along as Moe created, then was this possibly the first attempt, or an proof of concept for soul-transfer, a la, Meppa?


I was thinking the same thing. Last night I re-read the scene between Moe and Kellhus. And you know what? I think so. I've always been a fervent believer that Moe+Cnaüir=Meppa. And so much in that exchange points to Kellhus being duped yet again. The skull, Kellhus specifically saying that yes he is on conditioned ground. The skull, it all goes back to that for me. Its the point, even his exchange right before the kick, is where Kellhus is simply being played. Indeed 30 years Moe has had to condition this exchange. I don't want to go on to much more about this, but I have some new thoughts on this. Passion is what Moe was lacking, correct? He needed Kellhus just as much as he needed Cnaüir.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: H on December 21, 2015, 04:02:58 pm
I'll buy what Locke is selling, for the most part.  I'm definitely on board with him finding only what Maithanet wanted him to find.

I don't think Maithanet and Moe could have planned for the Consult killing him, but it happened and the end result is nearly the same.

As for the Simas agent, if we follow this along as Moe created, then was this possibly the first attempt, or an proof of concept for soul-transfer, a la, Meppa?


I was thinking the same thing. Last night I re-read the scene between Moe and Kellhus. And you know what? I think so. I've always been a fervent believer that Moe+Cnaüir=Meppa. And so much in that exchange points to Kellhus being duped yet again. The skull, Kellhus specifically saying that yes he is on conditioned ground. The skull, it all goes back to that for me. Its the point, even his exchange right before the kick, is where Kellhus is simply being played. Indeed 30 years Moe has had to condition this exchange. I don't want to go on to much more about this, but I have some new thoughts on this. Passion is what Moe was lacking, correct? He needed Kellhus just as much as he needed Cnaüir.

The one thing that I think he might not have planned for is the chorae though, since he wouldn't, presumable been able to handle one/have access to one, which leads to my main question being, was the transfer complete?
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on December 21, 2015, 04:07:02 pm
Honestly, and I am not very good at the metaphysics, I believe the chorae is what makes the transfer possible. Also, Moe would know that Cnaüir would've had his chorae.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: H on December 21, 2015, 04:17:10 pm
Honestly, and I am not very good at the metaphysics, I believe the chorae is what makes the transfer possible. Also, Moe would know that Cnaüir would've had his chorae.

Plausible.  Would he have thought he'd use it?  Eh, yeah, probably on "second" thought.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: locke on December 22, 2015, 07:27:57 am

Honestly, and I am not very good at the metaphysics, I believe the chorae is what makes the transfer possible. Also, Moe would know that Cnaüir would've had his chorae.
i agree the chorae probably made a transfer possible.

Think of it like serwes heart, think of serwe as exactly as she is always described: a reflection of cnaiurs feelings for and devotion to moenghus.  Her soul is tightly bound, linked, even, to kellhus and he takes advantage of it for the parlor trick of her heart.

Cnaiurs soul is tightly bound, linked, even to moenghus and he takes advantage of it for...

In this instance serwe might not be the most important character because she's holy etc, but the most important character because she provides a clean, concise and clear template upon which the reader can map cnaiur and untangle his jumbled, unreliable, manipulated perspective and more accurately interpret his and moenghus relationship and connection. And that mysterious final scene.

Serwes story is done, cnaiurs story is done. He ain't coming back.




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Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on December 22, 2015, 08:15:49 am
Ok, so what do you think happened in that final scene? I love your takes on these kinds things.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: Camlost on December 22, 2015, 04:06:38 pm
After reading the Maithanet-Skaurus exchange, I'm a lot more willing to believe that Moe was checking up on Kellhus back in Leweth's cabin. Also, as I said before, I think there is more back story to Leweth's character that is not narratively essential. I'd be willing to bet Moe was complicit in the death of Leweth's wife and his subsequent flight into the wilderness
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: themerchant on December 25, 2015, 10:20:36 pm
Just re-read the Mallahet emperor scene for the first time in years, a few things. the snakes are called "Salt" asp. Imperial sources seem quite convinced that Mallahet is really powerful in direct contradiction to what Kellhus thinks by the end of TTT.

When the Emperor meets with Mallahet, does he enter a probability trance, the emperor?

"Xerius paused, possessed by a calculating cold. He had always been at his canny best when wroth. Alternatives tumbled through his soul, most of them foundering on the sharp fact of Maithanet and his demonic cunning. He thought of Calmemunis and his hatred of his cousin, Nersei Proyas,heir to the throne of Conrinya.

And then he understood."
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: locke on December 28, 2015, 01:35:53 am
Just re-read the Mallahet emperor scene for the first time in years, a few things. the snakes are called "Salt" asp. Imperial sources seem quite convinced that Mallahet is really powerful in direct contradiction to what Kellhus thinks by the end of TTT.

When the Emperor meets with Mallahet, does he enter a probability trance, the emperor?

"Xerius paused, possessed by a calculating cold. He had always been at his canny best when wroth. Alternatives tumbled through his soul, most of them foundering on the sharp fact of Maithanet and his demonic cunning. He thought of Calmemunis and his hatred of his cousin, Nersei Proyas,heir to the throne of Conrinya.

And then he understood."
No, moenghus probably just made his face look like proyas and calmemunis in turn.

But we're probably supposed to note how xerius thoughts are directed towards a pre determined end point by the literary similarity to the probability trance.  Note how kellhus uses blunt cudgel  emotions to force people into accepting what he wants (all while kellhus contradictory thinks that it'd be more effective if they thought of it themselves), we're seeing here how different, subtle and effective an actual dunyain is at guiding a soul without disturbing a grain of sand in the process. Kellhus has to much ego and me so special desire to be the smartest in the room to ever allow an encounter to play out without figuring out a way to flatter himself as the bestest at the same time. moenghus makes xerius feel like a dunyain when guiding xerius thoughts and xerius finds it intoxicating.  Kellhus is intoxicated by the same.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]
Post by: themerchant on December 28, 2015, 04:46:35 pm
or it's a cant of compulsion and Mallahet is loading in information, by that i mean supplanting the emperors thoughts with his own. Later on he thinks it's his own idea all his own, and conphas remarks on it's brilliance, and is surprised his uncle came up with it.

Or something else.

I think considering his close proximity to a dunyain we can assume it wasn't his own idea. Not sure i have settled on a mechanism for it yet. Just the inner-thoughts echoed somewhat the probability trance.