The Second Apocalypse

General => Author Q&A => Topic started by: Borque on March 07, 2016, 07:58:42 pm

Title: Wracu and Chorae
Post by: Borque on March 07, 2016, 07:58:42 pm

Astonishingly enough, nobody seems to have asked this yet, so here goes:

Why didn't the Consult equip their dragons with Chorae?
Title: Re: Wracu and Chorae
Post by: sciborg2 on March 09, 2016, 05:39:14 am
And there it was - The Question of Questions.
Title: Re: Wracu and Chorae
Post by: C'jara-Cinmoi on June 22, 2016, 01:11:19 pm
Mike mentioned this on TPB as the 'question of questions,' but I'm sure this in the books somewhere. Wracu find them painful, for reasons that are hotly contested. One interpretation involves the fact that it's not just places where atrocity wears thin the fabric of the onta. As Wutteat shows, it's beings as well. Wracu, some argue, are demonic in some respect.

Another interpretation turns on the way morality is intrinsic to the ontology of the World. If you look at Chorae as 'logic bombs' designed to obliterate violations of code, then you can chart antipathies to Chorae according to different kinds of violations. Thus the difference between Schoolmen and Cishaurim. Wracu are not simply Inchoroi abominations, they are Inchoroi abominations possessing souls. Like the Cishaurim, they do not so much violate the 'letter' as the 'spirit' of natural law. Chorae are 'ontological stressors' in the latter instance. 

Title: Re: Wracu and Chorae
Post by: H on June 22, 2016, 01:35:26 pm
Mike mentioned this on TPB as the 'question of questions,' but I'm sure this in the books somewhere. Wracu find them painful, for reasons that are hotly contested. One interpretation involves the fact that it's not just places where atrocity wears thin the fabric of the onta. As Wutteat shows, it's beings as well. Wracu, some argue, are demonic in some respect.

I could have missed it, but I don't know that it is there as I have combed the books many times.

Another interpretation turns on the way morality is intrinsic to the ontology of the World. If you look at Chorae as 'logic bombs' designed to obliterate violations of code, then you can chart antipathies to Chorae according to different kinds of violations. Thus the difference between Schoolmen and Cishaurim. Wracu are not simply Inchoroi abominations, they are Inchoroi abominations possessing souls. Like the Cishaurim, they do not so much violate the 'letter' as the 'spirit' of natural law. Chorae are 'ontological stressors' in the latter instance. 

Whoa.  That is a very dense paragraph.  Will probably take me weeks to unpack.

Someone call in Locke.
Title: Re: Wracu and Chorae
Post by: MSJ on June 22, 2016, 01:50:52 pm
One interpretation involves the fact that it's not just places where atrocity wears thin the fabric of the onta. As Wutteat shows, it's beings as well.

I assume, that this could be applied to The Captain, as well?
Title: Re: Wracu and Chorae
Post by: Bolivar on June 22, 2016, 02:12:13 pm
There it is, folks.
Title: Re: Wracu and Chorae
Post by: themerchant on June 22, 2016, 02:43:47 pm
So the Consult can make being with souls. That skin-spy wasn't a mistake?
Title: Re: Wracu and Chorae
Post by: JRControl on June 22, 2016, 04:37:46 pm
My original thinking was that dragons were technologically bred abominations, but souled ones and in some ways a part of the Few, their fire breath only coming out on Earwa. Once they started dabbling with sorcery they of course became vulnerable to it. This however makes me think the inspiration for making dragons come from what the Consult saw in the Inverse Fire. Meaning their fire breath could be like...from the fires of hell. That is a very awesome thought.
Title: Re: Wracu and Chorae
Post by: H on June 22, 2016, 05:12:56 pm
So the Consult can make being with souls. That skin-spy wasn't a mistake?

I've always had the feeling  that Wracu were something akin to cyborgs.  The question of why they were souled though was a bit of a mystery though.  Now I have a feeling that they are actually highly grafted Inchoroi augmented with Tekne upgrades, patterened off Wutteat.
Title: Re: Wracu and Chorae
Post by: Aural on June 23, 2016, 11:45:07 pm
Painful to the point where they can't function while wearing them? Because pain in return for immunity from the most powerful weapon in Erwa is not a bad trade.
Title: Re: Wracu and Chorae
Post by: Callan S. on June 24, 2016, 03:30:34 am
Painful to the point where they can't function while wearing them? Because pain in return for immunity from the most powerful weapon in Erwa is not a bad trade.
You might be over estimating their power against a dragon
Title: Re: Wracu and Chorae
Post by: Aural on June 24, 2016, 03:35:51 am
That's a good point, I think it's said that wracu were specifically bred to counter gnostic sorcerers.
Title: Re: Wracu and Chorae
Post by: dragharrow on June 24, 2016, 05:28:20 am
Wow big stuff.

Not only an answer to why wracu don't wear chorae, but also an answer to why the Cishaurim get burned by the chorae in a different way than schoolman. This even relates to why Mimara is able to use her Chorae to "turn" the wight in Cil-Aujas.

Somehow the Chorae, as the manifestations of philosophical paradoxes, are the moral center of the world?
Title: Re: Wracu and Chorae
Post by: dragharrow on June 25, 2016, 04:39:46 am
Not moral center, that's badly phrased. They're more like literal moral compasses.
Title: Re: Wracu and Chorae
Post by: Callan S. on June 25, 2016, 06:13:20 am
I wonder if she forgave the wight into oblivion (in this case oblivion is not like a terrible fate so much as a release from damnation torture)
Title: Re: Wracu and Chorae
Post by: Wilshire on July 21, 2016, 07:34:01 pm
Painful to the point where they can't function while wearing them?
It would have to be. Blinding, convulsive, thought shattering pain. Not like "ouch you stabbed me", more like being tased continuously while bear mace was sprayed into your eyes, nose, and mouth, etc. etc.

One might argue it would be better to painlessly turn into a pillar of salt.
Title: Re: Wracu and Chorae
Post by: Simas Polchias on July 22, 2016, 11:54:08 pm
Wracu, some argue, are demonic in some respect.
It's possible that wracu relates to ciphrang as sranc relates to cunuroi?
Title: Re: Wracu and Chorae
Post by: EkyannusIII on July 23, 2016, 12:47:40 am
Counterpoint -  Kellhus has two Ciphrang heads on his girdle and they have never been described as Wracu-like.
Title: Re: Wracu and Chorae
Post by: Cynical Cat on July 27, 2016, 06:23:36 am
This question has been asked before and Scott's answer was close to some of the possibilities discussed (thanks Scott).  As for pain being a trade off for sorcerous invulnerability, it's not likely to be that simple.  Pain exists for a reason and not one says "holding onto red hot metal is a price I'm willing to pay for near invulnerability".  A brief exposure to chorae may merely be painful.  Prolonged exposure could be unhealthy.  Really unhealthy.