The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The Great Ordeal => Topic started by: Darknesse on July 11, 2016, 12:22:03 am

Title: [TGO Spoilers] I finished the book, confused about something.
Post by: Darknesse on July 11, 2016, 12:22:03 am
So.. Spoilers coming.







At the end of Chapter 16, whose "sickening humanity" is he referring to? I thought it was the WLW but I wasnt sure upon reread.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] I finished the book, confused about something.
Post by: CondYoke on July 11, 2016, 03:11:06 am
Yes, I read it as the WLW.
(Spoiler) What I am wondering about is the ambiguity of who survives- he is now "bereft of all he had loved and known," reads to me that Esmi is gone- or is it just major cliffhanger?
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] I finished the book, confused about something.
Post by: CondYoke on July 11, 2016, 03:19:10 am
I'm just impressed there is only "one thing" with which you were confused- what a read, but also what an infobomb! There is so much in this book to unpack, to revisit, and to ponder- The Tall? Viri, and Nonmen before the fall? Dunyain and the insights of The Survivor? Not to mention the plot... And the entrance in the last chapter...
wow. Mind blown.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] I finished the book, confused about something.
Post by: Ciogli on July 11, 2016, 08:44:14 am
The Tall was unexpected, in the psalms of whatever it spoke of Ishroi heroes who never stopped growing, I thought it was an artistic convention, but I guess not. Oiruinas was spectacular in his short appearance, I cannot wait to see him in Battle, immune from sorcery. It always seemed strange the way the Bashrag were said to be crafted to contend with Ishroi, but after seeing the Tall it makes sense. The description of him crushing the throat of a Bashrag one hand was jaw dropping.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] I finished the book, confused about something.
Post by: Tyrin on July 11, 2016, 10:06:09 am
The Tall was unexpected, in the psalms of whatever it spoke of Ishroi heroes who never stopped growing, I thought it was an artistic convention, but I guess not.

I thought much the same, though I guess if we believe the story of Ciogli breaking Wutteat's neck then we should've already known that giant Ishroi ain't nothing to fuck with.

Also, iirc Aurang (thinking back on how much stronger he used to be) remembers wrestling and killing Ciogli, and Ciogli himself was the "only one who could throw Oinuras from his feet", so I guess Tekne steroids are pretty damn good.

Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] I finished the book, confused about something.
Post by: Ciogli on July 11, 2016, 12:10:37 pm
In that same Atrocity Tale it stated that my namesake was killed by an impossible arrow through his helmet eyeslit, it might have been another Tall. I wonder how many Ishroi were Falls, none in the mansion fit this description.

On another note I wonder if the Sclvendi have the Gnosis, before they had no sorcerers, this seems to a adaptation of CUS, and if they are allied with the Consult, with a skinspy for over a generation no less. It would make sense for the Consult to tutor them with the Gnosis. They are not jealous of it like the Mandate, as Aurang said these are new days. Also the skinspy seemed like it might love CUS or something approximating it, it was strange how bound it was to him for so long. They seemed like a couple?
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] I finished the book, confused about something.
Post by: MisterGuyMan on July 11, 2016, 07:28:45 pm
What were thoughts on the WLW/Kellhus fight?  There's a lot of confusion there for me as to what happened.  As I read it, I thought Esmi tried to kill Kellhus by throwing a Chorae at him.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] I finished the book, confused about something.
Post by: CondYoke on July 11, 2016, 09:36:01 pm
I took  that as the white luck warrior replaying Esmi throwing a peach to him earlier. The chorae is supposed to come from the ceiling, worked loose by the quake; there are several embedded in it. What I don't get is if Kelmomas somehow affected the white luck, causing Kelhus to see the WLW.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] I finished the book, confused about something.
Post by: W00tard on July 13, 2016, 12:50:41 am
It seemed to me that as soon as Kelmomas cried mommy the WLW broke.  He never saw Kelmomas in any of his visions at that point in time... so the causal stream he followed was contradicted...  his reality became contradiction and it seemed to literally blow his mind, judging from the blood coming out of his ears.

My question to add to all of this is what was the point of telling us that Kelmomas and the WLW shared a dream of the WLW stabbing Kelmomas in the eye while he hid.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] I finished the book, confused about something.
Post by: CondYoke on July 13, 2016, 02:49:48 am
I don't remember the WLW having that dream, just Kel. 
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] I finished the book, confused about something.
Post by: Seomus on July 14, 2016, 12:46:54 am
Why does Kelmomas stand outside the sight of the gods? How else could his being there have been unexpected? He's like the no-god, at least to the WLW. I was thinking that the entire time reading Kel spying on WLW.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] I finished the book, confused about something.
Post by: MSJ on July 14, 2016, 12:54:24 am
Why does Kelmomas stand outside the sight of the gods? How else could his being there have been unexpected? He's like the no-god, at least to the WLW. I was thinking that the entire time reading Kel spying on WLW.

I took it because he was a Narinder of Ajokli. He received Unerring Grace, therefore he was cloaked by Ajokli against Yatwer.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] I finished the book, confused about something.
Post by: Seomus on July 14, 2016, 01:02:46 am
Why does Kelmomas stand outside the sight of the gods? How else could his being there have been unexpected? He's like the no-god, at least to the WLW. I was thinking that the entire time reading Kel spying on WLW.

I took it because he was a Narinder of Ajokli. He received Unerring Grace, therefore he was cloaked by Ajokli against Yatwer.

Poor Kel, all his sneaking around isn't because he's amazing, but because he's narinder. He can't take credit for anything now.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] I finished the book, confused about something.
Post by: MSJ on July 14, 2016, 01:26:56 am
Lol. It's just how I read it. From the time he killed the beetle, Ajokli took that as an offering. Also, I believe Ajokli has his own intentions outside of the other Gods.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] I finished the book, confused about something.
Post by: CondYoke on July 14, 2016, 01:50:11 am
I too read it that he was the agent of Ajokli, but this theory is interesting too;
"Why does Kelmomas stand outside the sight of the gods? How else could his being there have been unexpected? He's like the no-god, at least to the WLW. I was thinking that the entire time reading Kel spying on WLW."
He is a twin, whose pair is dead- maybe that is essential for God-blindness, or 'graced', or becoming a god (or whatever Kelmomas is)? Hey, was Cnaiur a twin?  ;)

Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] I finished the book, confused about something.
Post by: Seomus on July 14, 2016, 01:56:45 am
I too read it that he was the agent of Ajokli, but this theory is interesting too;
"Why does Kelmomas stand outside the sight of the gods? How else could his being there have been unexpected? He's like the no-god, at least to the WLW. I was thinking that the entire time reading Kel spying on WLW."
He is a twin, whose pair is dead- maybe that is essential for God-blindness, or 'graced', or becoming a god (or whatever Kelmomas is)? Hey, was Cnaiur a twin?  ;)



I was thinking it might have to do with the twin, but the beetle offering with Ajokli also works. Having Kel find out about narinder while investigating WLW is also illuminating what he is makes for great writing. One scene doing multiple narrative work.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] I finished the book, confused about something.
Post by: Wilshire on September 11, 2016, 04:42:41 pm
Celmomas has a dead twin as well, and a god manifested on his deathbed. It seems like there is something important going on with twins, but I dont know what.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] I finished the book, confused about something.
Post by: The Sharmat on September 11, 2016, 07:03:54 pm
Why does Kelmomas stand outside the sight of the gods? How else could his being there have been unexpected? He's like the no-god, at least to the WLW. I was thinking that the entire time reading Kel spying on WLW.
My theory is that Kelmomas does not. Just his brother. He's dead, but till interacting regularly with someone that isn't. Kinda like a Judging Eye, only with out the moral vision, and kind of a dick.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] I finished the book, confused about something.
Post by: Doubt on September 11, 2016, 08:07:54 pm
Is that truly Samarmus, or just one of the "fractions" Koringhus and Kellhus have, which he has tricked himself into thinking it's his dead twin?
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] I finished the book, confused about something.
Post by: Cynical Cat on September 12, 2016, 04:05:46 am
Is that truly Samarmus, or just one of the "fractions" Koringhus and Kellhus have, which he has tricked himself into thinking it's his dead twin?

That was my interpretation.  I argue with myself in my own head.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] I finished the book, confused about something.
Post by: Cnaiur vs Karsa vs Drogo on September 12, 2016, 04:37:18 am
Celmomas has a dead twin as well, and a god manifested on his deathbed. It seems like there is something important going on with twins, but I dont know what.

From the wiki:

   Anasūrimbor Huörmomas was the stillborn twin brother of Anasūrimbor Celmomas II.
   According to The Sagas, Celmomas was haunted by thoughts of Huörmomas throughout his life.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] I finished the book, confused about something.
Post by: The Sharmat on September 12, 2016, 04:49:56 am
Logically Kelmomas should just be insane but by the logic of fiction it has to actually be something supernatural inside his head.

The actual in-book stuff was a lot more damning than the wiki. The saga acts like the twin was still with him and moved Celmomas to perform his darker deeds.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] I finished the book, confused about something.
Post by: Cnaiur vs Karsa vs Drogo on September 12, 2016, 05:27:51 am
Logically Kelmomas should just be insane but by the logic of fiction it has to actually be something supernatural inside his head.

The actual in-book stuff was a lot more damning than the wiki. The saga acts like the twin was still with him and moved Celmomas to perform his darker deeds.


I can't really remember the books talking about it; what darker deeds?
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] I finished the book, confused about something.
Post by: The Sharmat on September 12, 2016, 05:54:18 am
They didn't say specifically that I recall, just vaguely ascribed whenever Celmomas went cold and scary as Huormomas's influence.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] I finished the book, confused about something.
Post by: Wilshire on September 12, 2016, 01:43:14 pm
Logically Kelmomas should just be insane but by the logic of fiction it has to actually be something supernatural inside his head.

The actual in-book stuff was a lot more damning than the wiki. The saga acts like the twin was still with him and moved Celmomas to perform his darker deeds.
Right, he's a paranoid schizophrenic - but in TSA he's a god-touched demon child speaking to some mysterious being. I've decided to think of the voice as Sammarus, though its just as likely something else.


Also, non 'darker moods'. It was mentioned somewhere that people decided that Huormomas was haunting or influencing Celmomas when he was angry.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] I finished the book, confused about something.
Post by: gtownwr on September 12, 2016, 04:17:20 pm
I was confused by the physical response of the WLW to Kel as well.  I thought maybe Kellhus had put a paralysis cant on him or something, but that was only because I couldn't think of any other logical reason he would be immobilized and bleeding from the ears.  I had seen prior theories than Kelmomas would be central to stopping the WLW, but I am at a loss as to why he was unseen by the WLW in all his visions.  This confrontation between Kellhus and the WLW was a source of great anxiety for me as a member of the "Kellhus is the savior" camp, and I was relieved to see him walk away from it, but I can't make sense of it yet. 
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] I finished the book, confused about something.
Post by: Wilshire on September 12, 2016, 04:26:49 pm
I thought the bleeding from the ears was in relation to the earthquake somehow.

As for why Kelmomas was unseen - thats a huge mystery. Mostly, I think what should be taken away is that the gods aren't omnipotent, or omniscient. They have blind spots, and they are blind to those blindspots as surely as anyone.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] I finished the book, confused about something.
Post by: The Sharmat on September 13, 2016, 03:44:01 am
Yeah I think the ear bleeding was just from a shockwave. He was frozen out of shock, fro the first time in his entire existence.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] I finished the book, confused about something.
Post by: MSJ on September 13, 2016, 03:57:44 am
I believe the blood on the ear lobes of the WLW was a blessing from Yatwer. A ritual type of thing. It was mentioned before when he met Esme in the throne room at the beginning of TGO and he asked him to clean his hands in the bowl. It is brought up then too.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] I finished the book, confused about something.
Post by: The Sharmat on September 13, 2016, 08:50:01 am
You're right, I misremembered.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] I finished the book, confused about something.
Post by: themerchant on September 13, 2016, 10:45:08 am
My theory is Kellhus built the 2nd palace for the same reason the non-men built the threshold to hide from the gaze of gods. Esme then tells Kel about it, who seems to have exclusive use of it, only Esme, Kellhus and kel know about it

The thing has no practical use for Kellhus he doesn't need to run about the palace and spy on what folk are saying, he can see through fire, can see their thoughts etc. Ostensibly though it is a good cover story.

Better than Kellhus going, yeah i'm building a maze type thing so in a few years when i'm with the great ordeal you'll tell our youngest about it who will use it to spy on a god sent assassin unseen and then disrupt his plan to kill me when i return from Dagliash to spring the trap, and finally show the gods they can be blind.

Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] I finished the book, confused about something.
Post by: Wilshire on September 13, 2016, 02:40:34 pm
I believe the blood on the ear lobes of the WLW was a blessing from Yatwer. A ritual type of thing. It was mentioned before when he met Esme in the throne room at the beginning of TGO and he asked him to clean his hands in the bowl. It is brought up then too.

Totally missed that.

My theory is Kellhus built the 2nd palace for the same reason the non-men built the threshold to hide from the gaze of gods. Esme then tells Kel about it, who seems to have exclusive use of it, only Esme, Kellhus and kel know about it

The thing has no practical use for Kellhus he doesn't need to run about the palace and spy on what folk are saying, he can see through fire, can see their thoughts etc. Ostensibly though it is a good cover story.

Better than Kellhus going, yeah i'm building a maze type thing so in a few years when i'm with the great ordeal you'll tell our youngest about it who will use it to spy on a god sent assassin unseen and then disrupt his plan to kill me when i return from Dagliash to spring the trap, and finally show the gods they can be blind.

As for the 2nd palace, totally agree that it seems to be of far more use to Kelmomas than Kellhus.

God blindness is an interesting topic. How does the piling of stone hide those in Earwa from the Gods? I want to think that it's much more difficult than that. I think there is something to do with topos in relation to Ishterebinth and how the depths are hidden from the Gods.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] I finished the book, confused about something.
Post by: themerchant on September 13, 2016, 09:17:15 pm
I believe the blood on the ear lobes of the WLW was a blessing from Yatwer. A ritual type of thing. It was mentioned before when he met Esme in the throne room at the beginning of TGO and he asked him to clean his hands in the bowl. It is brought up then too.

Totally missed that.

My theory is Kellhus built the 2nd palace for the same reason the non-men built the threshold to hide from the gaze of gods. Esme then tells Kel about it, who seems to have exclusive use of it, only Esme, Kellhus and kel know about it

The thing has no practical use for Kellhus he doesn't need to run about the palace and spy on what folk are saying, he can see through fire, can see their thoughts etc. Ostensibly though it is a good cover story.

Better than Kellhus going, yeah i'm building a maze type thing so in a few years when i'm with the great ordeal you'll tell our youngest about it who will use it to spy on a god sent assassin unseen and then disrupt his plan to kill me when i return from Dagliash to spring the trap, and finally show the gods they can be blind.

As for the 2nd palace, totally agree that it seems to be of far more use to Kelmomas than Kellhus.

God blindness is an interesting topic. How does the piling of stone hide those in Earwa from the Gods? I want to think that it's much more difficult than that. I think there is something to do with topos in relation to Ishterebinth and how the depths are hidden from the Gods.

Yeah i've always thought the palace was built for Kel, so with the introduction of thresholds and methods using stone to hide from the gaze of the gods, i just appropriated that into my argument with nary a thought for anything else :P
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] I finished the book, confused about something.
Post by: MSJ on September 13, 2016, 11:40:21 pm
Yea, but we are shown in Ish that the thresholds do not work. The Holy deeo, was the only way to escape the gaze of the gods. No, the hidden palace was just Kelmommas's playground.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] I finished the book, confused about something.
Post by: Cnaiur vs Karsa vs Drogo on September 15, 2016, 11:01:24 pm
Maybe this needs a new thread, maybe not, but I don't really understand the circumstances of Theliopa's death. Why was she in Kel's room? Why was she with the Narindar there? the Narindar says the line about "someone who was there when it happened," in the first chapter and also just before she dies.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] I finished the book, confused about something.
Post by: MSJ on September 15, 2016, 11:20:20 pm
Maybe this needs a new thread, maybe not, but I don't really understand the circumstances of Theliopa's death. Why was she in Kel's room? Why was she with the Narindar there? the Narindar says the line about "someone who was there when it happened," in the first chapter and also just before she dies.

I assume She was either going to kill Kelmommas or meeting the Narindar to have him off the crazy kid.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] I finished the book, confused about something.
Post by: Cnaiur vs Karsa vs Drogo on September 15, 2016, 11:39:59 pm
such a bummer. she was one of my favorite-favorite characters.

it's so hard to figure out since she doesn't feel surprise. she could be there with him or just not show any surprise that he's there.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] I finished the book, confused about something.
Post by: MSJ on September 16, 2016, 12:05:11 am
such a bummer. she was one of my favorite-favorite characters.

it's so hard to figure out since she doesn't feel surprise. she could be there with him or just not show any surprise that he's there.

Don't forget....she was Dūnyain.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] I finished the book, confused about something.
Post by: Cnaiur vs Karsa vs Drogo on September 16, 2016, 11:39:20 pm
Did anyone catch Kelhus referring to Yatwer as his sister just before killing psatma?
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] I finished the book, confused about something.
Post by: MSJ on September 17, 2016, 05:23:23 am
Did anyone catch Kelhus referring to Yatwer as his sister just before killing psatma?

Yea, and I was thinking about that in regards to H's theory that Kellhus is the TTT and the voices and dreams are him. If that's true and eventually Kellhus's domain is the Outside, then Yatwer would be his sister.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] I finished the book, confused about something.
Post by: The Sharmat on September 18, 2016, 05:13:40 pm
He's claimed that about the Gods before IIRC. It's part of the act.