The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The Great Ordeal => Topic started by: MSJ on July 14, 2016, 07:36:37 am

Title: [TGO Spoilers] Kellhus
Post by: MSJ on July 14, 2016, 07:36:37 am
ARC thread here. (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=1784.0)

First post:

Quote from: Blackstone
What is Kellhus's intention?

I was pretty surprised that we got POVs from Kellhus. I wonder if RSB's test readers were once again confused about Kellhus (much like in the initial draft of TTT) which prompted some rewrites with Kellhus getting POV chapters.

I suppose that up until the end of the battle for Dagliash, I assumed that Kellhus's plan was to defeat the Consult with the GO and then figure out a way to close the world to the Gods (which I think we see in the new version of the Celmomian Prophecy--which blew my mind in slow motion btw). He takes great pains to show Proyas that the Gods care nothing for men (to get buy in for closing the world). Kellhus is completely prepared to sacrifice everyone at home. Then comes the Inch-Nuke and Kellhus's departure from the GO.

I think what surprised me the most in the book was that Kellhus went HOME. He was ready to sacrifice Momemn, and then he returns. Has he decided the GO is doomed? Is he going to try to build another ordeal? It wouldn't seem feasible, considering that all the Schools now march with Proyas. (It's my assumption that Vim-Mithriti was the last sorcerer in the Three Seas). So what's the plan now?
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Kellhus
Post by: Ciogli on July 14, 2016, 04:35:54 pm
Yes, Kellhus returning home was the biggest why, my favorite moment in the book was when he was looking at the saggomontic device and said that not all can be saved. It gave me the sense that the secrets of the Consult were being revealed, like Kellhus was finally discovering the deepest of his foes secrets. But he must have always intended to return home, preparing Programs so carefully and abandoning the Ordeal at this critical juncture, when the Ordeal is at its most vulnerable. But because Kellhus does almost nothing spontaneously, he sent the cipher any to kill the Data Khan and his line, making Sronga the new Data Khan. I expect that he has been fighting outside Kayutas and now cannot help but to except the truth of Kellhus war, following Proyas into Agongorea. Time is of the essence, they cannot hope to overcome the saggomontic fortress without Kellhus, their is a plan that we are not seeing, that involves Zeum and now a somewhat believer king.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Kellhus
Post by: themerchant on July 14, 2016, 06:57:40 pm
Well ostensibly he spent months conditioning Proyas to make decisions no believer king could.

He re-appeared with just enough time to take care of Fanayal/Pstama/Meppa and then ask Esme what she had done (let it happen) side step the white-luck warrior timeline via his son and then send another servant to Zeum. While leaving a conditioned agent to take care of the ordeal.

Still don't know the reasons.

Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Kellhus
Post by: themerchant on July 14, 2016, 07:07:29 pm
Maybe Kellhus knew about the nuke somehow, wanted to get rid of horde before the No-God walked. So he created the circumstances to concentrate them all in one area and then blow them up.

Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Kellhus
Post by: Ciogli on July 14, 2016, 11:10:18 pm
I don't think he knew of the nuke, he concentrated to much with its discovery, I think maybe that changed his calculation of what he would do next.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Kellhus
Post by: CondYoke on July 14, 2016, 11:15:34 pm
I am probably ignoring pages already written, but going back to TTT, I was always captured by Kelhus' view of Moengus's vision- that there would be "manufactured catastrophes", leading to the Consult destroying "whole nations" to get to 144K. I can't help but think this is exactly the path that Kelhus follows- the destruction of the Army of the South that was destroyed at Ishri in WLW, the nuke at Dagliash (he can sense the chorae, the hordes but not a nuke?) and imagine if Sorweel hadn't saved the army of the North- add that to his feeding the GO Scranc, and then abandoning them in their hour of need, it feels like those manufactured catastrophes.
I think he could have averted most of those. I'm still not sure of his end game.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Kellhus
Post by: Bolivar on July 15, 2016, 03:33:44 am
I'm convinced he knew of the Nuke ahead of time and used it for some purpose.

When they start storming Dagliash, Kellhus tells Saubon not to fear for Kellhus' safety. He knew what he was doing and wanted to make sure Saubon didn't hazard anything that might get in the way of what he was about to do.

He basically excavates the coffer and then personally steers it out.

When Saubon asks him what the glowing script means, presumably a countdown, Kellhus knows what it means, saying it signifies that not all can be saved. When Saubon asks him what Kellhus says about it, he replies that it's a good thing.

His talk with Proyas afterwards sounds like he's covering it up, how Proyas is the only one who knows the truth of what happens and that this was the purpose of their conversations. He also knows about nuclear fallout and radiation poisoning ahead of time.

Fuck me, I can't believe a fucking nuke went off at Dagliash.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Kellhus
Post by: MSJ on July 15, 2016, 08:45:34 am
I can't wait to re-read that last 4 or 5 chapters slowly and take it all in. That said, I got the impression that Kellhus brought the Nuke up on accident. If it was intentional, what was the Aurang flyby for? I thought that he either placed the Nuke or triggered the countdown/engaged, what have you.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Kellhus
Post by: Bolivar on July 15, 2016, 02:35:18 pm
I definitely think that's a possibility, since it explains why Aurang was there at all and why he didn't stick around to answer Saccarees. At the same time, it's too much for me that Kellhus already knows about the effects of nuclear fallout and radiation poisoning mere moments after it goes off. I also don't think Aurang placed it, since it seemed Kellhus had to actively dig very deep to finally get it. Maybe he had some remote transmitter that started the countdown but then I also remember he was to the North of the mountains, away from where the fighting was. It could have just as easily been one of his routine fly-bys to survey the field.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Kellhus
Post by: themerchant on July 15, 2016, 02:56:48 pm
or maybe Aurang was there to make sure Kellhus kept his part of the bargain...
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Kellhus
Post by: H on July 15, 2016, 03:01:19 pm
When I happened to accidentally flip to that part again, I did notice that the Tekne-Bomb came up right after Aurang showed up.  It certainly seems plausible that Aurang actually pulled it up (hence why he came at all) and all Kellhus did was make a snap decision based off what he figured it was.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Kellhus
Post by: Simas Polchias on July 16, 2016, 01:24:33 pm
At the same time, it's too much for me that Kellhus already knows about the effects of nuclear fallout and radiation poisoning mere moments after it goes off.
No-God's destruction had a similar outcome, so nuclear tekne seems to be rather ancient. Consult could have used few bomb in the FA, leaving both ground signs and survivors' descriptions (diaries etc, which never left besieged northen fortressed). With his pocket teleporter Kellhus could actually took these knowlegde form his own field scouting and intel plundering.

Also, metagnosis, cants who deliver the generalization of the ground.

PS So, did someone nuke No-God in the FA?
Title: [TGO Spoilers] Kelhus
Post by: Bertxi on July 20, 2016, 04:19:02 pm
I almost feel sorry for Kelhus in a way now, he goes back to Momen because he does truely care for Esmenent; albiet a Dunyains love is fish cold, and as soon as he arrives that first look at her face and he realizes what she had done and what she hopes to do. His brother killed, two children dead and a wife that wants him dead. And this is all before he will most assuradly look upon Kelmomas' face......(though im betting Ajokli will shield his favorite toy).
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Kelhus
Post by: Bolivar on July 20, 2016, 04:37:29 pm
It was an interesting turn on the conversation between Inrilatas and Maithanet in WLW, where Inrilatas argues, and Maithanet does not dispute, that Kellhus is compromising the shortest path to appease Esmenet when he needs to. I'm not quite convinced he really does care for her, more like she has some further role to play in his machinations. It might be Serwe's brokenness that allowed the outside to seep in around Kellhus and bring him so much fortune during the First Holy War and that he might be trying to break Esmenet in a similar way so that it happens again, this time by murdering her children.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Kellhus
Post by: Cüréthañ on July 21, 2016, 01:40:57 am
I strongly doubt that Kellhus returned to Momenn for Esme's sake, or even the fate of the new Empire.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Kellhus
Post by: Cosi on July 21, 2016, 02:01:22 am
I strongly doubt that Kellhus returned to Momenn for Esme's sake, or even the fate of the new Empire.

Yeah. I'm actually a little confused about what purpose Momemn serves (both for Kellhus and in the story). As best as I can tell, the current function of the Empire is a way to bait the Gods into attacking Kellhus somewhere other than the Ordeal. Not sure why he's attacking Zeum though. Even if he can take control, what is he planning to do with it? It's not like he can get Zeumi troops or mages up to the Ordeal in time.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Kellhus
Post by: RedSetter4570 on July 21, 2016, 02:41:47 am
Are the Zayumi the 144k souls (or the tribe of man who did not cross the mountains)? The Gods have been established as total d bags, and so far we have found what? Two people who are cool with the Gods?  Mimara and The Survivor (and Kellhus' reasons can't be seen to the Gods, or the reader).  Perhaps what Kellhus said was true, and the Gods do feed on damnation, so the Consult is evil, no doubt about that, but they work for good because the Gods are equally (or perhaps, more) evil.  Perhaps by bringing about the Apocalypse it actually is a work of salvation from such evil beings, and all those who are born into it.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Kellhus
Post by: Madness on July 21, 2016, 03:07:17 am
I strongly doubt that Kellhus returned to Momenn for Esme's sake, or even the fate of the new Empire.

Yeah. I'm actually a little confused about what purpose Momemn serves (both for Kellhus and in the story). As best as I can tell, the current function of the Empire is a way to bait the Gods into attacking Kellhus somewhere other than the Ordeal. Not sure why he's attacking Zeum though. Even if he can take control, what is he planning to do with it? It's not like he can get Zeumi troops or mages up to the Ordeal in time.

I hesitate to comment on Kellhus' endgame - except for years, I've been harping that Kellhus should want the Tekne, if true mastery of all worldly conditions is still part of his Mission, whatever it may be.

BUT...

In the TGO ARC threads, and in our conversations over the past couple years, Somnambulist has pointed to the fact that the last mention of Meppa is from Malowebi's perspective before Kellhus cuts off his head and that Meppa is semi-conscious. Clearly, as Som has chastised me repeatedly, Kellhus has a role for the Last Cishaurim to play.

Not to mention, Whelmed-Kelmomas is almost certainly a gamble by Kellhus to conspire with Ajokli and diffusing one threat posed by Issiral/Yatwer isn't a bad reason to swing by town. Add in Ciphrang-Malowebi and whatever nefarious purpose he serves, Kellhus manages to tie up a couple bows while he just so happens to be there saving Esmenet.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Kellhus
Post by: Cüréthañ on July 21, 2016, 03:48:05 am
Assuredly. Ignorant enemies are Khellus' best tools.

It's long been my contention that Kellhus is probably no longer an individual, rather an extension of the Thousandfold Thought. A speculation TGO feeds pretty hard.

Was nice to see my speculations on lil Kel and Ishterberinth confirmed. :D
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Kellhus
Post by: EkyannusIII on July 22, 2016, 03:07:13 pm
At the same time, it's too much for me that Kellhus already knows about the effects of nuclear fallout and radiation poisoning mere moments after it goes off.

I thought so too at first, but anyone at all can tell that exposure to intense light and heat it harmful, all Kellhus has to do is grasp that the object is a weapon and that it is somehow based on the explosive emission of fire and the rest can be reasonably inferred. Also keep in mind that sorcery is apparently capable of generating lethal forms of light, so all Three Seas mages have some experience with directed energy as a weapon - radiation effect might not be too unknown. Bakker's only real mistake there is in giving a precise description of how the exposed will sicken, rather than a general decree that all who fall ill must be quarantined.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Kellhus
Post by: JRControl on July 23, 2016, 03:32:36 am
It makes much more sense to me that Kellhus either learned to read Inchoroi and found some cache of their knowledge or he made some kind of deal with the Consult, because I am not yet entirely clear on what Proyas is supposed to do with the remnants of the Ordeal.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Kellhus
Post by: MSJ on July 24, 2016, 02:47:58 am
I strongly doubt that Kellhus returned to Momenn for Esme's sake, or even the fate of the new Empire.

I disagree. Kellhus has shown hints of emotion and he even said, "to salvage what he may." IMHO, Kellhus is looking to save humanity, from the Consult and the Gods/damnation. I don't believe he had any idea about the nuke, but I think it wasn't the reason for him going back to Momemn. I know that Kellhus is who he needs to be at whatever moment, and must because of what he has set out to accomplish. When he broke on the Circumfix, it was because of being face to face with a woman he cared deeply for and knowing he caused it. This "more" he says to Moe that he is, is he is more human/cares for humans. Pre TGO, everyone said that he would leave the. empire to ruin and pointed to his convo with Proyas as evidence. I never bought it. He always planned to go back and save the empire and those he loves.

Quote
It was the hazard of the converse that had eluded him. The World is a granary, Proyas … The fact that his heart would also crash into ruin. “And we are the bread.

His heart crash to ruin. Not what one would think from a Dunayin, no? Plenty of evidence stacking up for Kellhus's humanism and what that will foretell of his goals.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Kellhus
Post by: RedSetter4570 on July 24, 2016, 04:37:36 am
There is something different about Khellus in this book.  He has a genuine interest in his family and empire, he makes an effort to shield the Great Ordeal from the nuke and its effects, his desire for angry revenge toward Zeyeum, and his vulnerability to Saubon and Proyas in the matter of faith are downright human.  To not speak of other desires with the whole rape thing...

Oh wait, he is Dunyain.  He calculated everything out, including the madness that is going to effect the The Great Ordeal (sending an assassin to kill the leader of a country tends to have negative consequences, unless it's to mobilize an army to defend against a No God worshiping Sranc eaters, if his rape victim fails in bringing them to heel and destroying to Consult...correct me if I am wrong, Zayeum has the only school remaining in Earwa right?).  Not to mention his own madness from investing Sranc.  Cnaiur is the one wildcard, but not much of one, seeing as how Acca met up with him, which, judging by everything else Acca has done, was more or less preordained. 

I think we are seeing Khellus as he is seen by world born men: a sympathic character who reveals enough through his words and actions to win our trust.  He's a bigger monster than ever (then again, so are the gods).
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Kellhus
Post by: Titan on July 24, 2016, 06:35:49 am
I think we are seeing Khellus as he is seen by world born men: a sympathic character who reveals enough through his words and actions to win our trust.  He's a bigger monster than ever (then again, so are the gods).

Bingo. His POV sections are chilling. Yet I'm still rooting for him against the Consult and the Gods, what does that make me?   :-\
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Kellhus
Post by: Viridius on July 24, 2016, 11:21:58 am
I'm in favour of an uneasy alliance between Kellhus & the Consult against the Gods. Or that the Consult are somehow part of a plan in the Thousand Fold Thought. Kill two birds with one stone.

I think that some kind of behind the scenes stuff has been going on between K & The Consult for some time. There's the famous scene with Esmenet-Aurang but there's also a moment towards the end of TTT. Achamian, just before Kellhus appears:

Quote
"He saw nothing of Kellhus, though he spied something, a point of fluttering black, hanging over the distant network of streets and alleyways that rose up into the haze. He blinked, frowning... Was that the Mark he sensed? A sorcerous bird?"

IMHO they had been having one of their chats.

Do you think that he didn't notice his old sparring partner riding the thermals high above Dagliash?

The Thousand Fold Thought spans the continent including both the empire & the GO as well as something dodgy going on in Zeum. It's as if he's stirring up total chaos. (Ulp. Has he gone over? "He went mad." Is he laying the ground for the killing blow? The arrival of the No-God & no mistakes this time?)

Did he go back to Momemn (a choice I still find puzzling if his main goal was the success of the GO) to make sure that things were coming to a head there? Got to get your timing right! Maybe it was even wilder than he had imagined. & Esmi is covered in her daughter's blood, he says:"What have you done?" Know-it-all Kellhus is surprised & uncertain? Or is that just another manipulative response to Esmi in order to take control of the situation?
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Kellhus
Post by: Titan on July 24, 2016, 05:26:28 pm
Viridius,
I get the impression that Kellhus thinks that the Gods are the greater evil... He is fighting the Consult, but as a way to stab at a the gods, if that makes sense.

Did he go back to Momemn (a choice I still find puzzling if his main goal was the success of the GO) to make sure that things were coming to a head there? Got to get your timing right! Maybe it was even wilder than he had imagined. & Esmi is covered in her daughter's blood, he says:"What have you done?" Know-it-all Kellhus is surprised & uncertain? Or is that just another manipulative response to Esmi in order to take control of the situation?

I think Kellhus left the GO on purpose - the new "shortest path" after the nuke - but I expect him to return to it shortly. Perhaps the GO reaching Golgotterath without him is what will help kill the faith in him and thus the gods.

I guess my point is that the important part in in plan was to temporarily leave the GO. So once he left the GO, he might as well go to Monemn. Where else? :-)
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Kellhus
Post by: EkyannusIII on July 24, 2016, 09:45:48 pm
I never bought it. He always planned to go back and save the empire and those he loves.

Hrm.  If true, that puts the death of Maithanet in new perspective.  Kellhus doesn't know of it as of the end of TGO, either.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Kellhus
Post by: MSJ on July 24, 2016, 11:30:07 pm
I never bought it. He always planned to go back and save the empire and those he loves.

Hrm.  If true, that puts the death of Maithanet in new perspective.  Kellhus doesn't know of it as of the end of TGO, either.

There is a lot he didn't know about when he came back. I don't see how any of that would be affected his decision to come back.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Kellhus
Post by: JRControl on July 24, 2016, 11:45:54 pm
I am kind of suspicious of this Kellhus who turned over a new leaf and supposedly cares. He point blank said to Esmenet's face: "Love is for lesser souls" or something to that effect, unless I confabulated the whole section.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Kellhus
Post by: Titan on July 25, 2016, 12:16:57 am
I am kind of suspicious of this Kellhus who turned over a new leaf and supposedly cares. He point blank said to Esmenet's face: "Love is for lesser souls" or something to that effect, unless I confabulated the whole section.

You should be. Unless you are reading things from HIS point of view, EVERYTHING he says is only done to create the outcome "that place that was Kellhus" desires. It might be lies or truth, but it is all manipulation.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Kellhus
Post by: H on July 25, 2016, 12:55:06 pm
Not to derail the current conversation, but I had a random though about why Kellhus so easily took to the Meta-Gnosis and (comparatively) effortlessly can wield it.

The idea came from thinking about all the "voices" that Koringhus "hears" and how, if Kellhus is the same way (and I think he is) how that could easily allowing him to have several inutterals perhaps even more than two.

I am kind of suspicious of this Kellhus who turned over a new leaf and supposedly cares. He point blank said to Esmenet's face: "Love is for lesser souls" or something to that effect, unless I confabulated the whole section.

Indeed.  He might actually care, but he knows he can't let it determine what he has to do.  Interestingly enough, Koringhus is "afflicted" with caring as well, illustrated by his own questioning why he bothered to save his defective son.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Kellhus
Post by: EkyannusIII on July 25, 2016, 06:12:32 pm
I am kind of suspicious of this Kellhus who turned over a new leaf and supposedly cares. He point blank said to Esmenet's face: "Love is for lesser souls" or something to that effect, unless I confabulated the whole section.

He says that to Proyas.

Note that the quote, juxtaposed to his supposed revelations to Proyas in TGO, serve the imply that Kellhus, loving nothing, is like the God, also loving nothing.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Kellhus
Post by: EkyannusIII on July 25, 2016, 06:17:25 pm
Not to derail the current conversation, but I had a random though about why Kellhus so easily took to the Meta-Gnosis and (comparatively) effortlessly can wield it.

The idea came from thinking about all the "voices" that Koringhus "hears" and how, if Kellhus is the same way (and I think he is) how that could easily allowing him to have several inutterals perhaps even more than two.

He discusses that with Akka in TTT:

Quote
Following a fleet survey of the Theses, Achamian moved on to the Persemiota, the meaning-fixing meditative techniques that Mandate Schoolmen, thanks to the Seswathan homunculus within them, largely ignored. Then he delved into the technical depths of the Semansis Dualis, the very doorstep of what had been, until the coming of the man who sat before him, a final precursor to damnation.

He explained the all-important relation between the two halves of every Cant: the inutterals, which always remained unspoken, and the utterals, which always were spoken. Since any single meaning could be skewed by the vagaries of circumstance, Cants required a second, simultaneous meaning, which, though as vulnerable to distortion as the first, braced it nonetheless, even as it too was braced. As Outhrata, the great Kûniüric metaphysician, had put it, language required two wings to fly.

“So the inutterals serve to fix the utterals,” Kellhus said, “the way the words of one man might secure the words of another.”

“Precisely,” Achamian replied. “One must think and say two different things at once. This is the greatest challenge—even more so than the mnemonics. The thing that requires the most practice to master.”

Kellhus nodded, utterly unconcerned. “And this is why the Anagogic Schools have never been able to steal the Gnosis. Why simply reciting what they hear is useless.”

“There’s the metaphysics to consider as well. But, yes, in all sorcery the inutterals are key.”

Kellhus nodded. “Has anyone experimented with further inutteral strings?”

Achamian swallowed. “What do you mean?”

By some coincidence two of the hanging lanterns guttered at the same time, drawing Achamian’s eyes upward. They instantly resumed their soundless illumination.

“Has anyone devised Cants consisting of two inutteral strings?”

The “Third Phrase” was a thing of myth in Gnostic sorcery, a story handed down to Men during the Nonman Tutelage: the legend of Su’juroit, the great Cûnuroi Witch-King. But for some reason, Achamian found himself loath to relate the tale. “No,” he lied. “It’s impossible.”
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Kellhus
Post by: EkyannusIII on July 25, 2016, 06:18:35 pm
I never bought it. He always planned to go back and save the empire and those he loves.

Hrm.  If true, that puts the death of Maithanet in new perspective.  Kellhus doesn't know of it as of the end of TGO, either.

There is a lot he didn't know about when he came back. I don't see how any of that would be affected his decision to come back.

I'm simply stating that the death of Maithanet will be an unwelcome surprise.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Kellhus
Post by: JRControl on July 26, 2016, 01:50:47 am
I am kind of suspicious of this Kellhus who turned over a new leaf and supposedly cares. He point blank said to Esmenet's face: "Love is for lesser souls" or something to that effect, unless I confabulated the whole section.

He says that to Proyas.

Note that the quote, juxtaposed to his supposed revelations to Proyas in TGO, serve the imply that Kellhus, loving nothing, is like the God, also loving nothing.

Double-checked and you're right. I think Kellhus is trying to scrape his way past his madness and become God whereas Koringhus decided to return to stack as it were. The whole cooperate or defect dilemma with a couple of million souls at stake.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Kellhus
Post by: Triskele on July 26, 2016, 03:19:15 am
Lol, think how easily Kellhus knew Akka lied right there.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Kellhus
Post by: Viridius on July 26, 2016, 08:03:34 am
I am kind of suspicious of this Kellhus who turned over a new leaf and supposedly cares. He point blank said to Esmenet's face: "Love is for lesser souls" or something to that effect, unless I confabulated the whole section.

You should be. Unless you are reading things from HIS point of view, EVERYTHING he says is only done to create the outcome "that place that was Kellhus" desires. It might be lies or truth, but it is all manipulation.

With you there Titan. it looked to me as if K was grooming Proyas to lead the GO. So he knew that he'd be elsewhere & that Saubon wouldn't be around. Does that mean that he knew about the nuke when the raft landed?

If a Benjuka board is like Go, sometimes you restart activity elsewhere & back off from the area where it's been getting hot. Hmm, good time to pop back to Momemn to see what's going on there. Things are falling apart, no surprise, but maybe faster or more profoundly than expected. WTF has been going on? Have a chat with Esmi. Take the upper hand. "What have you done?" is a way of manipulating her.  She's already in a state; push her further to get straight to the point. He might be powerful but he's not omniscient, he needs information & fast.

Interestingl that he turned up at Fanayal's tent first.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Kellhus
Post by: MSJ on July 26, 2016, 01:52:12 pm
With you there Titan. it looked to me as if K was grooming Proyas to lead the GO. So he knew that he'd be elsewhere & that Saubon wouldn't be around. Does that mean that he knew about the nuke when the raft landed?

If a Benjuka board is like Go, sometimes you restart activity elsewhere & back off from the area where it's been getting hot. Hmm, good time to pop back to Momemn to see what's going on there. Things are falling apart, no surprise, but maybe faster or more profoundly than expected. WTF has been going on? Have a chat with Esmi. Take the upper hand. "What have you done?" is a way of manipulating her.  She's already in a state; push her further to get straight to the point. He might be powerful but he's not omniscient, he needs information & fast.

Interestingl that he turned up at Fanayal's tent first.

I'm sorry, but your contradicting yourself here, along with everyone else. We can't say that Kellhus was prepping Proyas because he knew he'd be somewhere else, then say that Kellhus made the decision to go back to Momemn only after the Nuke. That he suddenly reassessed the situation and suddenly needed all the info he could gather. Why would be he have prepped Proyas then?

No, Kellhus always knew he was going back to save the Empire. Because, he knew all he had to do was kill Fayanal to save the Empire. Kellhus goal (IMHO) is to defeat the Consult and  And damnation (shut the Outside, Kill the 100). Only, he wants to leave something for those who survive to come back to. Some order. He has a different way of accomplishing this other than the Consults way of reducing the population to 144,000. Everyone forgets, but there are several mentions throughout TAE how certain people and places of the Great Ordeal later become HOLY. So, to me, this is a clue that whatever comes about will become HOLY and civilization does continue on. KELLHUS WAS ALWAYS GOING BACK TO MOMEMN.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Kellhus
Post by: H on July 26, 2016, 02:11:37 pm
Indeed, I think that was always part of the plan, the going back.

I have a feeling that part of it was to draw out whatever Yatwer had planned.  If he had been there more constantly, he wouldn't have known what Esmenet would have done and, indeed, did do.  She would have been constantly under Kellhus' thumb.  Kelmomas would also have been more circumspect and wouldn't have revealed himself (or Ajolki).

There has always been something of a question in my mind about why he even let Fanayal live for any amount of time.  I think the answer came in those last two tent scenes.  He was drawing him out along with Malowebi and of course Meppa.  Consider if he had simply murdered Fanayal however many years ago.  It would simply be someone else there attacking, so it makes no difference.  Why allow them to attack?  Because all those Fanim warriors need to see that even with a god's help, they can't win.

I do think the Ordeal is a throw away, but not entirely.  The Ordeal matters, but only the Few among them.  The rest are only there to deliver them.  We are literally told this in WLW.  And as MSJ points out, the Ordeal's journey becomes Holy.  In other words, they are on a holy quest.  The end is something holy.  My guess is that Kellhus installs himself as the True Solitary God, or some such.  Probably through the same means as the No-God is made.  This is why he needs to get to Golottereth.  This may be why he didn't outright kill Meppa?  Water will later become, literally Holy?

The qeuestion I don't really have an answer for is why does he need Proyas to "do what no believer could do?"  All I can think of is that he will renounce Kellhus, but I don't understand why that helps him.  Or is it that he wants him to do everything believing that Kellhus has really forsaken him.  In other words, not rely on him?
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Kellhus
Post by: spacemost on July 26, 2016, 02:27:03 pm
The qeuestion I don't really have an answer for is why does he need Proyas to "do what no believer could do?"  All I can think of is that he will renounce Kellhus, but I don't understand why that helps him.  Or is it that he wants him to do everything believing that Kellhus has really forsaken him.  In other words, no rely on him?
I read it as relating back to Chapter 4 and what Proyas believed about Kellhus, prophets, the gods, etc before Kellhus pulled the rug from under him. He needs someone who will make the right decisions, not the dogmatic "What Would (my fantasy of) Kellhus Do?" decisions. I think Kellhus knows things are about to get really really squirrely as they approach Golgotterath and he needs someone who will follow orders even if their faith is shaken.

As a side note, I realized just now that the reason "love" is so alien to the One God is because it's a measure of the distance between two people and therefore outside the Absolute.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Kellhus
Post by: JRControl on July 26, 2016, 03:07:43 pm
It's either that, there are tough choices to be made, that moral believers could never bring themselves to do, which in my mind doesn't really sit right considering they've been burning nations for 20 odd years and now have been eating the Meat for quite some time. My guess is, Kellhus will save Proyas for reasons and Proyas will either lead the GO against ALL nations or lead the GO to the Consult to sacrifice them and bring back the NG. (souled people are needed for the resurrection)
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Kellhus
Post by: MSJ on July 26, 2016, 03:49:58 pm
It's either that, there are tough choices to be made, that moral believers could never bring themselves to do, which in my mind doesn't really sit right considering they've been burning nations for 20 odd years and now have been eating the Meat for quite some time. My guess is, Kellhus will save Proyas for reasons and Proyas will either lead the GO against ALL nations or lead the GO to the Consult to sacrifice them and bring back the NG. (souled people are needed for the resurrection)

I'm curious where do you get that souls are needed for the No-God to be resurrected? I also thought you have said before that it's specifically 144,000 souls needed. Well that's the number the Consult need to reduce Earwa's population to to shut the Outside. I'm just curious, you could very well be right, just never seen anything in the text that corroborates it though.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Kellhus
Post by: spacemost on July 26, 2016, 03:57:56 pm
Achamian had that dream (or dreams) where people were being marched into what is presumably the NG sarcophagus.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Kellhus
Post by: JRControl on July 26, 2016, 03:59:31 pm
I don't think I said the 144k part, though it would mesh thematically somewhat. The souled people bit I go from what we've seen of Akka's dreams and the fact if they didn't need them they would have brought NG back ASAP right? So either he's gonna sacrifice GO to the Consult (not everyone can be saved) or he destroyed the Horde and drove GO to the brink of sanity so Kellhus himself could lead the Purge in order to maintain some leverage over the Consult cause obviously you can't trust people whose jimmies have been rustled for countless millennia. I'm sure there are pieces I overlooked and these are rough sketches.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Kellhus
Post by: MSJ on July 26, 2016, 04:11:36 pm
Ahhhh, yes, ok I gotcha.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Kellhus
Post by: MSJ on July 26, 2016, 04:34:51 pm
I do think the Ordeal is a throw away, but not entirely.  The Ordeal matters, but only the Few among them.  The rest are only there to deliver them.  We are literally told this in WLW.  And as MSJ points out, the Ordeal's journey becomes Holy.  In other words, they are on a holy quest.  The end is something holy.  My guess is that Kellhus installs himself as the True Solitary God, or some such.  Probably through the same means as the No-God is made.  This is why he needs to get to Golottereth.  This may be why he didn't outright kill Meppa?  Water will later become, literally Holy?

Right. So we know that whatever comes about it's going to be Holy. So, to me, we can stop the nonsense about Kellhus wanting to join the Consult and be the No-God. That doesn't fit with whatever make this holy.

I am a firm believer in the "Akka will kneel" bit. I don't think Kellhus survives the GO, at least as far as going on living. He may indeed become The God or something like that.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Kellhus
Post by: spacemost on July 26, 2016, 04:46:44 pm
Kellhus' modus operandi since leaving Ishual has been absorbing and synthesizing the useful aspects of everything he encounters, whether it was individual people, the religious culture of the three seas, the sorcerous schools, the first Holy War, etc. I would be amazed if Kellhus didn't do the same with the Consult and the tekne - absorb, disintegrate, reintegrate - but I wouldn't say that's the same as him 'joining' the Consult or becoming the No-God.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Kellhus
Post by: MSJ on July 26, 2016, 04:51:19 pm
Kellhus' modus operandi since leaving Ishual has been absorbing and synthesizing the useful aspects of everything he encounters, whether it was individual people, the religious culture of the three seas, the sorcerous schools, the first Holy War, etc. I would be amazed if Kellhus didn't do the same with the Consult and the tekne - absorb, disintegrate, reintegrate - but I wouldn't say that's the same as him 'joining' the Consult or becoming the No-God.

Don't get me wrong, I believe he's after the Tekne or maybe will use the No-God to accomplish his goals. That isn't the same as him joining the Consult or using the No-God to reduce the population and shut the Outside. Indeed, he wants to get to Golgoterreth for reasons other than destroying the Consult, I agree.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Kellhus
Post by: Madness on July 26, 2016, 05:23:37 pm
Just want to reaffirm that there are a lot of ends to tie at Momemn. Kellhus almost certainly diffuses the White-Luck Warrior by having Whelmed Kelmomas and knowing enough Ajokli lore to guess the God would find his son a desirable patsy (Gil-jokli/Ajokgoal thoughts aside). He has the Last Cishaurim now, for whatever nefarious purpose. Ciphrang-Malowebi is unleashed. And Kellhus claims to Psatma and Malowebi that he has anticipated at least one of Yatwer's moves - though Sorweel suggests that She is planning past Momemn.

Also, Kellhus has hardly "saved" the New Empire, if the capitol is a complete ruin.

Kellhus' modus operandi since leaving Ishual has been absorbing and synthesizing the useful aspects of everything he encounters, whether it was individual people, the religious culture of the three seas, the sorcerous schools, the first Holy War, etc. I would be amazed if Kellhus didn't do the same with the Consult and the tekne - absorb, disintegrate, reintegrate - but I wouldn't say that's the same as him 'joining' the Consult or becoming the No-God.

+1.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Kellhus
Post by: gtownwr on April 21, 2017, 04:52:55 pm

He discusses that with Akka in TTT:

Quote
Following a fleet survey of the Theses, Achamian moved on to the Persemiota, the meaning-fixing meditative techniques that Mandate Schoolmen, thanks to the Seswathan homunculus within them, largely ignored. Then he delved into the technical depths of the Semansis Dualis, the very doorstep of what had been, until the coming of the man who sat before him, a final precursor to damnation.

He explained the all-important relation between the two halves of every Cant: the inutterals, which always remained unspoken, and the utterals, which always were spoken. Since any single meaning could be skewed by the vagaries of circumstance, Cants required a second, simultaneous meaning, which, though as vulnerable to distortion as the first, braced it nonetheless, even as it too was braced. As Outhrata, the great Kûniüric metaphysician, had put it, language required two wings to fly.

“So the inutterals serve to fix the utterals,” Kellhus said, “the way the words of one man might secure the words of another.”

“Precisely,” Achamian replied. “One must think and say two different things at once. This is the greatest challenge—even more so than the mnemonics. The thing that requires the most practice to master.”

Kellhus nodded, utterly unconcerned. “And this is why the Anagogic Schools have never been able to steal the Gnosis. Why simply reciting what they hear is useless.”

“There’s the metaphysics to consider as well. But, yes, in all sorcery the inutterals are key.”

Kellhus nodded. “Has anyone experimented with further inutteral strings?”

Achamian swallowed. “What do you mean?”

By some coincidence two of the hanging lanterns guttered at the same time, drawing Achamian’s eyes upward. They instantly resumed their soundless illumination.

“Has anyone devised Cants consisting of two inutteral strings?”

The “Third Phrase” was a thing of myth in Gnostic sorcery, a story handed down to Men during the Nonman Tutelage: the legend of Su’juroit, the great Cûnuroi Witch-King. But for some reason, Achamian found himself loath to relate the tale. “No,” he lied. “It’s impossible.”

This is interesting, because it could be a definitive proof that the MetaGnosis is greater than Quya magic.  If the idea of a second inutteral is myth even among Non-Men, then that would imply that the presence of a second inutteral is extremely powerful, even to the Quya.  The MetaGnosis may be even more powerful than we thought, which is saying something.  I always thought it was just a little bit more powerful than Quya magic, but it may be much, much greater.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Kellhus
Post by: themerchant on April 21, 2017, 07:08:05 pm
The two hanging lanterns guttering at the same time always jumped out to me in that passage.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Kellhus
Post by: Francis Buck on April 21, 2017, 08:03:26 pm
The two hanging lanterns guttering at the same time always jumped out to me in that passage.

Same. My instinct is to relate it with Seswatha given the context. I think the Meta-Gnosis isn't something one can "learn" so much as it is "given" (or enabled) by Seswatha. The homunculus of Seswatha is able to assist or augment a sorceror's abilities by lending its (as in Seswatha -- I think "it" may be a more appropriate way of describing whatever "Seswatha" is at this point) another innuteral, which is otherwise impossible.

I also can't help but think of the two glowing eyes in darkness that Esmenet remembers seeing with her mother as a child.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Kellhus
Post by: Francis Buck on April 21, 2017, 08:05:50 pm
I do think the Ordeal is a throw away, but not entirely.  The Ordeal matters, but only the Few among them.  The rest are only there to deliver them.  We are literally told this in WLW.  And as MSJ points out, the Ordeal's journey becomes Holy.  In other words, they are on a holy quest.  The end is something holy.  My guess is that Kellhus installs himself as the True Solitary God, or some such.  Probably through the same means as the No-God is made.  This is why he needs to get to Golottereth.  This may be why he didn't outright kill Meppa?  Water will later become, literally Holy?

Right. So we know that whatever comes about it's going to be Holy. So, to me, we can stop the nonsense about Kellhus wanting to join the Consult and be the No-God. That doesn't fit with whatever make this holy.

I am a firm believer in the "Akka will kneel" bit. I don't think Kellhus survives the GO, at least as far as going on living. He may indeed become The God or something like that.

Out of curiosity, how are you defining "holy" in this case? What entails holiness? What is it a measurement of?
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Kellhus
Post by: MSJ on April 21, 2017, 08:44:17 pm
Out of curiosity, how are you defining "holy" in this case? What entails holiness? What is it a measurement of?

Just that whatever happens after the GO, the GO itself becomes holy. And, one would assume if the GO becomes Holy, then Kellhus would be also. As to your question, just that post-GO whatever or whoever is left on Earwa, believes it is holy. We get several mentions of places, people and names that go on to be considered holy in the aftermath of the GO. Are they truly holy in the metaphysical sense of Earwa? Well, that all depends upon what Kellhus actually accomplishes, and as H said above, that might be a role of Mimara. I could see that playing out.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Kellhus
Post by: MSJ on April 22, 2017, 05:41:09 pm
FB, to  your question - "What is the measurement of?, I think, as H said, it will be measured by Mimara through the Judging Eye. I have a feeling that no matter the atrocities committed by Kellhus and his utter ruthlessness to act out his plan (TTT), it will ultimately be seen as holy through the JE. Why? We'll, we've seen two character with haloes, Mimara and Kellhus. We know Kellhus's helped are not Sorcerors in nature and might be a product of what he becomes, forgives and made Holy through Mimara a la the Judging Eye.

These are just my thoughts, though I think there is textual evidence for that to be the case. We've been thinking that Kellhus is damned, Well because, He's a sorcerer, a mass murderer and so on. But, no one knows his true intentions and I think the Haloes are a clue that at some point he will truly be holy. My guess? The destruction of the 100 and giving control back to the God.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Kellhus
Post by: BeardFisher-King on April 24, 2017, 04:26:35 pm
I think you're on the right track, MSJ.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Kellhus
Post by: MG on April 25, 2017, 01:30:44 am
I do think the Ordeal is a throw away, but not entirely.  The Ordeal matters, but only the Few among them.  The rest are only there to deliver them.  We are literally told this in WLW.  And as MSJ points out, the Ordeal's journey becomes Holy.  In other words, they are on a holy quest.  The end is something holy.  My guess is that Kellhus installs himself as the True Solitary God, or some such.  Probably through the same means as the No-God is made.  This is why he needs to get to Golottereth.  This may be why he didn't outright kill Meppa?  Water will later become, literally Holy?

Right. So we know that whatever comes about it's going to be Holy. So, to me, we can stop the nonsense about Kellhus wanting to join the Consult and be the No-God. That doesn't fit with whatever make this holy.

I am a firm believer in the "Akka will kneel" bit. I don't think Kellhus survives the GO, at least as far as going on living. He may indeed become The God or something like that.

;)