The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The Great Ordeal => Topic started by: Redeagl on March 03, 2017, 06:10:36 pm

Title: [TGO Spoilers] [ TUC Spoilers] MG teaser 3
Post by: Redeagl on March 03, 2017, 06:10:36 pm
Third TUC teaser by MG!
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] [ TUC Spoilers] MG teaser 3
Post by: Ciogli on March 03, 2017, 07:12:56 pm
Maybe that is where the first Anasurimbor comes from,  Jiricet was the father of the Twoheart.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] [ TUC Spoilers] MG teaser 3
Post by: Simas Polchias on March 03, 2017, 10:07:57 pm
Maybe that is where the first Anasurimbor comes from,  Jiricet was the father of the Twoheart.
This.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] [ TUC Spoilers] MG teaser 3
Post by: Francis Buck on March 04, 2017, 12:14:09 am
Interesting idea, I'd forgotten about Jiricet completely. I'd thought of Sirwitta as the first Anasurimbor for a while (or rather his issue, Cimoira). She might simply have been the first Human/Nonman hybrid though. Either way something is up with both of these tales.

The Anasurimbor line coming from "Lord Torturer's son" would be yet another (and pretty clear cut) reference to The Book of the New Sun, which is cool.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] [ TUC Spoilers] MG teaser 3
Post by: profgrape on March 04, 2017, 12:16:20 am
So Jiricet is Harapior's kid?  Cool if true.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] [ TUC Spoilers] MG teaser 3
Post by: Redeagl on March 04, 2017, 12:18:02 am
Ok, who is that Jiricet guy again?  the one who raped Omindalea?
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] [ TUC Spoilers] MG teaser 3
Post by: Francis Buck on March 04, 2017, 12:24:52 am
From the wiki:

Quote
Jiricet is a Nonman Siqû who raped Anasûrimbor Omindalea in 824, and then fled to Ishterebinth. When Nil’giccas refused to return him to Ûmerau, all Nonmen were expelled from the Ûmeri Empire, thus ending the Nonman Tutelage.

Omindalea later died bearing Jiricet’s child Anasûrimbor Sanna-Jephera (825-1032), called ‘Twoheart.’

http://princeofnothing.wikia.com/wiki/Jiricet (http://princeofnothing.wikia.com/wiki/Jiricet)

Jiricet's age and date are not known.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] [ TUC Spoilers] MG teaser 3
Post by: Hirtius/Pansa on March 04, 2017, 03:40:22 am
Some of these could be weird non sequiturs/red herrings to troll us: such is how I feel about this one. Like, Harapior's son may be mentioned once during the fight at Golgotterath in a standard Bakker omniscient POV battle-cam section, and he's just a random Quya fighting for the Consult with no overt plot significance.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] [ TUC Spoilers] MG teaser 3
Post by: themerchant on March 04, 2017, 07:40:45 am
Maybe that is where the first Anasurimbor comes from,  Jiricet was the father of the Twoheart.


Same first thought i had.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] [ TUC Spoilers] MG teaser 3
Post by: mrganondorf on March 08, 2017, 03:31:57 am
WHO THE HELL IS JIRICET?

IT'S ABOUT LEWETH DOODIE BRAINS

I TRIED TO TELL YOU--A DUNYAIN DOES NOT APPEAR AS A DUNYAIN TO ORDINARY PEOPLE, SO AN UBER-DUNYAIN WOULD TOTALLY APPEAR TO BE A ORDINARY WEAKLING TO A DUNYAIN.

THE DUNYAIN ARE BLIND TO MANIPULATION FROM ALL FRONTS

>_>
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] [ TUC Spoilers] MG teaser 3
Post by: Hirtius/Pansa on March 24, 2017, 08:13:00 am
Reread the Ishterebinth chapters yesterday. One of the sections where Serwa is vexing Harapior with her singing he is thinking about his wife and how she would sing to him thus. Then in a moment of lucidity, he glares at Serwa and tells her that he knows the secret of her blood.

Jiricet is totally his kid.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] [ TUC Spoilers] MG teaser 3
Post by: Redeagl on March 24, 2017, 10:57:18 am
Reread the Ishterebinth chapters yesterday. One of the sections where Serwa is vexing Harapior with her singing he is thinking about his wife and how she would sing to him thus. Then in a moment of lucidity, he glares at Serwa and tells her that he knows the secret of her blood.

Jiricet is totally his kid.
I thought he meant the Dûnyain since he did mention them and knew that Serwa had some Dûnyain blood.He recognized her "signing" as Dûnyain techniques. I might be wrong though, I don't remember the scene exactly.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] [ TUC Spoilers] MG teaser 3
Post by: H on March 24, 2017, 11:27:34 am
Aurang has mentioned that Kellhus has the "accursed blood" of the Anasûrimbor:

Quote
Their devious methods and disconcerting abilities aside, these Dûnyain were Anasûrimbor. Even without the Mandate prophecies, enmity was a fact of their accursed blood. Who was this Moënghus?

And going even further back, Mekeritrig when he meets Kellhus:

Quote
“It speaks the language,” the man muttered at length. He stepped closer, peering at Kellhus. “Yes,” he said. “Yes . . . You do not merely mock me. I can see his blood in your face.

While we didn't actually get the glossary entry for for the Rape of Omindalea, the evidence that the Anasûrimbor are partly Nonman is present in other places too.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] [ TUC Spoilers] MG teaser 3
Post by: Wilshire on March 24, 2017, 02:15:22 pm
If Omindalea doesn't make it into the next glossary I'm going to be upset. Sick of this quasi-cannon explanation.

Secret of your blood, to me, appears to be a reference to the Dunyain. At least initially that was my thought. So vague!
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] [ TUC Spoilers] MG teaser 3
Post by: Redeagl on March 24, 2017, 03:00:17 pm
If Omindalea doesn't make it into the next glossary I'm going to be upset. Sick of this quasi-cannon explanation.

Secret of your blood, to me, appears to be a reference to the Dunyain. At least initially that was my thought. So vague!
Pretty sure most if not all of the new glossary will be stuff not mentioned or updated from the TTT glossary. I mean certainly we will not get the details of Sakarpus and Arithau trade deals in the 19th century of the Tusk.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] [ TUC Spoilers] MG teaser 3
Post by: MSJ on March 24, 2017, 04:12:08 pm
If Omindalea doesn't make it into the next glossary I'm going to be upset. Sick of this quasi-cannon explanation.

Secret of your blood, to me, appears to be a reference to the Dunyain. At least initially that was my thought. So vague!

Those were initially my thought. But, everyone know she is Dunyain, so that wouldn't be the secret to her accursed blood. The secret is, as of have suggested, the Nonmen blood the Anasûrimbor blood they carry. Hence, Serwa being able to sound exactly like the Torturers wife. That's when it struck him, the Nonmwn lineage.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] [ TUC Spoilers] MG teaser 3
Post by: Redeagl on March 24, 2017, 04:53:48 pm
If Omindalea doesn't make it into the next glossary I'm going to be upset. Sick of this quasi-cannon explanation.

Secret of your blood, to me, appears to be a reference to the Dunyain. At least initially that was my thought. So vague!

Those were initially my thought. But, everyone know she is Dunyain, so that wouldn't be the secret to her accursed blood. The secret is, as of have suggested, the Nonmen blood the Anasûrimbor blood they carry. Hence, Serwa being able to sound exactly like the Torturers wife. That's when it struck him, the Nonmwn lineage.
Makes sense. Though I still stand with my theory that Harapior somehow knew of the Dûnyain. Not everyone knows of them, I don't think that Akka's book was distributed there. They may have known of the Dûnyain by the Consult. Wandering in the North and finding Ishüal won't exactly give you much information about them.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] [ TUC Spoilers] MG teaser 3
Post by: themerchant on March 24, 2017, 05:07:01 pm
Yeah the new non-man king told harpior about the Dunyain from info he got from the consult.

Can't remember the exact words, but the consult know of the Dunyain and they told their puppet king about it. Who told his right hand man.

I also believe the non-man blood is relevant could be relevant.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] [ TUC Spoilers] MG teaser 3
Post by: Hirtius/Pansa on March 24, 2017, 10:02:06 pm
But being a Dunyain can't exactly be a secret, no? The Consult have known of the Dunyain for 20 years. And they've certainly kept the puppet state in Ishterebinth informed long before the events of TAE are to be believed; if they used Nonmen from Ishterebinth to finish off Ishual. It's also no secret that Kellhus's children would inherit some of his strength.

The secret in question must the Nonman heritage. But the passage is vague enough, I will admit.

Edit: Here's the salient line: "How does a mortal girl, a captive hidden from sun, sky—even the Gods!—become the terror of the Ishroi, throw all Ishterebinth into uproar?" He bared fused teeth. "But I know. I know what you are—the secret of your obscene line."

Emphasis on the "I". Were he speaking to the collective knowledge of the Consult regarding the Dunyain, surely "we" would've been more appropriate.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] [ TUC Spoilers] MG teaser 3
Post by: Wilshire on March 25, 2017, 03:18:35 am
 It's hard to think that the secret is something that all or even most.  But why would Hers be the accursed bloodline? A nonmen impregnated a human, who's line lived on with the humans. So why call her that?

I'd be more understanding if there were halfbreeds living amongst the nonmen, but I don't get  it this way around.
 
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] [ TUC Spoilers] MG teaser 3
Post by: Hirtius/Pansa on March 25, 2017, 05:39:15 am
Xenophobia, the need to repudiate something that is anathema, I don't know.

If we have the Sirwitta/Cimoira issue as a case study, the halfbreed girl was integrated back into the Cunoroi and considered "of the tribe". Anasûrimbor Sanna-Jephera, another halfbreed was integrated into human society, then the Anasûrimbor line goes on. Maybe the issue isn't the miscengenation in itself, but the fact that the Anasurimbor decided to become part of human society and repudiated Nonman culture. Like a human deciding to go into the wilderness and join a sranc tribe, something so utterly absurd so as to be worthy of contempt.

Honestly this reminds me of Elros and Elrond from the Silmarillion. Two Half-Elven twin brothers: the one decides to become fully human and become the first King of Numenor, the other decides to become fully Elf and becomes a great lord of the Noldor.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] [ TUC Spoilers] MG teaser 3
Post by: Wilshire on March 25, 2017, 01:47:03 pm
Explained that way it makes a bit more sense. Thanks!
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] [ TUC Spoilers] MG teaser 3
Post by: Francis Buck on March 26, 2017, 12:14:15 am
Xenophobia, the need to repudiate something that is anathema, I don't know.

If we have the Sirwitta/Cimoira issue as a case study, the halfbreed girl was integrated back into the Cunoroi and considered "of the tribe". Anasûrimbor Sanna-Jephera, another halfbreed was integrated into human society, then the Anasûrimbor line goes on. Maybe the issue isn't the miscengenation in itself, but the fact that the Anasurimbor decided to become part of human society and repudiated Nonman culture. Like a human deciding to go into the wilderness and join a sranc tribe, something so utterly absurd so as to be worthy of contempt.

Honestly this reminds me of Elros and Elrond from the Silmarillion. Two Half-Elven twin brothers: the one decides to become fully human and become the first King of Numenor, the other decides to become fully Elf and becomes a great lord of the Noldor.

I like this, particularly the Elros/Elrond bit, which I never thought about at all in relation TSA and definitely seems like it could be an influence.

This is more of a crackpot idea from me, but I do think it's a part of the story in some degree, if not this exact sense, but:

There are a couple references to the "secret of the Anasurimbor blood", the one I'm remembering off the top of my head being the showdown with Maithanet, Inrilatas, and Kelmomas.

Regardless, my suspicion is that, similar to Dune, there are basically two "families" that the Consult (or someone) has been surreptitiously breeding together in order to create some kind of Kwisatz Haderach. One family is the Anasurimbor, the other is/was the Ikurei. They are like the Atreidies and Harkonnens.

One of these two (not sure which) have blood from the Inchoroi in their line. The Inchoroi (particularly Aurang) are very much like the biblical "Watchers", or fallen angels, who bred with humans to create the nephilim ("giants"). The Nonmen might be the Nephilim analogue, but I'm not sure it works quite like that. It might just be Nonman blood, but the Inchoroi's similarities to the Watchers and so on is pretty hard to dismiss.

Now, the name "Ikurei" has two possible etymological roots that I can think of, though I'm certain there are plenty more. The most obvious, I suppose, is that Ikurei looks/sounds very close to "Ichor", which in Greek myth is:

Quote
-the fluid that flows like blood in the veins of the gods.
-any blood-like fluid.
-(archaic) a watery, fetid discharge from a wound.

More obscurely, it could be from the Yoruba mythology/language, which I've thought might be a linguistic influence on the series for a little while now.

In Yoruba, there is Iku, the name for Death, King of the Ajogun (demons). Rei is very common in multiple languages as the title of a king or ruler.

So yeah, I dunno lol. Even assuming the whole Ikurei/Anasurimbor thing is true, I'm not sure which makes more sense to have been the one with the "accursed blood". Gut reaction is the Ikurei since they're the "bad guys" and I definitely don't think the name was pulled out of thin air, but it really could equally apply to the Anasurimbor. Also "they're the bad guys" is, I suspect, a misguided way of looking at just about anything in the series for now.


Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] [ TUC Spoilers] MG teaser 3
Post by: Cuttlefish on April 06, 2017, 02:30:33 pm
I don't get how these teasers work. Was this even a thing I was supposed to care about? I didn't even realize the guy had a son. I don't feel teased.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] [ TUC Spoilers] MG teaser 3
Post by: Wilshire on April 06, 2017, 02:54:43 pm
I don't get how these teasers work. Was this even a thing I was supposed to care about? I didn't even realize the guy had a son. I don't feel teased.
Next time you get sent a manuscript, you can pick your own teasers :) .
All MG did was become the single largest TSA social media distributor, groom contacts Overlook, contact audiobook publishers, get interviews, and generally convince everyone in the entire chain of command that he was someone important - all without any credentials or proof to support his claims. How hard could it be?
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] [ TUC Spoilers] MG teaser 3
Post by: Redeagl on April 06, 2017, 08:11:01 pm
I don't get how these teasers work. Was this even a thing I was supposed to care about? I didn't even realize the guy had a son. I don't feel teased.
It is something interesting for us to speculate about that we won't have done without the teaser. I like MG's teasers  :)
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] [ TUC Spoilers] MG teaser 3
Post by: Cuttlefish on April 06, 2017, 08:43:15 pm
I don't get how these teasers work. Was this even a thing I was supposed to care about? I didn't even realize the guy had a son. I don't feel teased.
Next time you get sent a manuscript, you can pick your own teasers :) .
All MG did was become the single largest TSA social media distributor, groom contacts Overlook, contact audiobook publishers, get interviews, and generally convince everyone in the entire chain of command that he was someone important - all without any credentials or proof to support his claims. How hard could it be?

Oh, I don't mean to be a dick if it's a fan effort. I was just thinking that the teaser campaign was kinda falling flat for me, because with the exception of the thing about Achamian being deceived, none of it was about things that were already a subject of discussion. I actually went back after seeing this Lord Torturer thing to see if there were any hints in the last book that this could've been a storyline, but didn't see anything. But ahem, kudos for the effort and the passion for the series.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] [ TUC Spoilers] MG teaser 3
Post by: Wilshire on April 07, 2017, 11:17:13 am
No worries cuttlefish, I was overly sarcastic there.

I'm almost certain that Overlook and Bakker are not involved with this in any way. Just mrganondorf, aka MG aka Bakkerfans, sharing what he has deemed shareable , trying to build hype

If you spend any time here, you'll notice that MG is a bit eccentric. I rarely understand the way he thinks, but I'm glad he's around.

Anyway, there's a fine line between spoilers and teasers. Everyone has their comfort level.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] [ TUC Spoilers] MG teaser 3
Post by: mrganondorf on May 02, 2017, 03:23:11 pm
I don't get how these teasers work. Was this even a thing I was supposed to care about? I didn't even realize the guy had a son. I don't feel teased.

I'M SORRY--I WAS TRYING TO DISPLAY SOME TANTALIZING THING TO GET EVERYONE STOKED UP ABOUT TUC WITHOUT ACTUALLY DOING A SPOILER