The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => General Earwa => Topic started by: TaoHorror on April 28, 2017, 05:36:24 pm

Title: Here goes ...
Post by: TaoHorror on April 28, 2017, 05:36:24 pm
Apologies from the start, haven’t read this forum or posted in a few years. Just found out a month ago TGO was out and finished reading it … which brought me here. I forget quite a few important details like why Moenghus left Ishual and how the Thousand Fold Thought was learned by Kellus – his father shared it or he discovered on his own? Guess I’ll have to reread the books – one of the benefits of having a weak memory, art is a new experience every time you see it  :)

I read this whole thread all at once, not organically as people posted, so I may have missed some nuance to the discussion. I’m going to address several points across threads on this post for efficiency. I haven’t read everything, so apologies for redundancy of covering toiled ground. That said, me thinks the measuring of millimeters to discover what Kellus’s true intention/direction may be misguided ( that or I’m simply not smart enough to see a massive hidden meaning beyond the thousands of supposed clues to the real game being played ). Bakker is a demon, for sure, nothing he’s writing is just to describe the “beautiful” landscape. But a lot of it is to build intrigue, or at least so I think since I read these books at the edge of my seat excitedly crying aloud, “dude, no way!”, frequently.

Not the sharpest knife in the drawer, I look at this simplistically. Kellus was raised with the Logos to achieve a purely self-moving soul ( I think this is Bakker exploring "finding the bottom of the bag" as he addresses in another of his books … whereas in Neuropath that exploration was purely scientific, what would it be like for a sect of humans devoted to accomplishing the same thing via conscious exploration ). He’s sent away from the Dunyain to assassinate his father ( bit lost on the Survivor claiming no awareness of sorcery when Moënghus communicates to the Dunyain to send his son – sorcery – maybe they hushed that up or something ). He learns of the world and of sorcery. For some reason, he’s taken to it – or maybe simply following his directive, not allowing “the world” to deter him. His son, the Survivor, didn’t take to it well at all, quickly dismissing 2,000 years of Dunyain effort and concludes the Absolute is zero, etc. The Survivor does enjoy the benefit of getting an upshot on the status of his soul with The Eye and when he “turns green” he’s like, fuck it, I’m good to join the absolute/god and commits suicide. I detect a mild slap at those of us who believe in religious salvation for if we’re confident we’re saved, no point on risking damnation – if you really are “saved”, best thing that could happen to you is a quick death. I digress …

In short, I think Kellus set out to do what he was told – found out his father was powerful as all get out, potentially with sorcery ( unaware at first the water didn’t take for his pop, not one of the few ) and determined he needed massive power ( an army ) to overwhelm his father and kill him as directed. In the process/journey, he discovers ( again, don’t remember how ) the Thousand Fold Thought for which I took was the threading of the needle to save humanity from extinction. All that we’re seeing in the books is that path. He’s taken up the task to save humanity. Because even though we’re children in his eyes he still feels connected and responsible to protect us like a parent? Because he’s a mad fucker who thought it would be fun to drive an army through hell to defeat an unbeatable enemy to show the planet whose boss? Don’t know for sure, but I don’t identify with evidence brought up in this forum that he’s in cahoots with The Consult – this would be a massive rouse if that’s the case with the smell of cheap writing we see in television shows – to shock for shock’s sake, to surprise by drumming up something completely different with no clue to the viewer what’s coming. Pretty much anyone can do that … create a love story only to see the happy couple who traveled misunderstanding and tragedy together reaching a beautiful connection to only to be hacked up by a madman with a chainsaw in the end. It’s one thing to spin a yarn, quite another to fuck your readers over for the fun of it. I think it's simpler - he sees an "end" and accepts his species evolutionary programming that the show should go on; maybe enjoying some of the hooks ( read: love ) that other humans indulge. That all said, I do see Bakker’s writing teaching us something about the cost of us readers for “loving” or even rooting for Kellus – that loving those we see “higher” than ourselves is risking our own lives as well as our identity/humanity – simply, be careful dear reader in idolizing others. The lesson is to avoid being played and manipulated and for those “leaders” and “heroes” we love, we’re allowing them to use us – often not in our best interests. As long as Kellus is “working” for humanity, cool – if he deviates or violates that trajectory, don’t hesitate to kill him. I think that’s the lesson Kellus is giving Proyas, that his love of Kellus is holding him back, watering his ability to command the GO in Kellus’ absence. The rape was harsh, but maybe felt he had to do the non-man thing of marrying tragedy to an event so it will hit home with Proyas. Or maybe as metaphor as he breaks Proyas’ conditioning, “see what can happen when you put all your chips on one person” and/or just because I’m saving your hind sides from the furnace, doesn’t mean you should trust me.

Don’t like guessing the end of stories, I enjoy being surprised. But appears guessing is what we do here in this forum – so I’m going to take a stab at it. Kellus is having us ( humanity ) take out the Consult to strengthen us to overcome an even worse threat in the future. He sees us as too weak, too immature to endure or flourish. Feuding between each other has not strengthened us enough fend off extinction. An alien showed up to take us out 2,000 years ago and nearly succeeded. They’re still around, but haven’t struck again ( unknown, but I think The Consult was watching us self-destruct in lieu of them taking the risk of full frontal assault ). Seems like a good idea to take them out before the No-god shows up again. But more, it may well toughen us up and evolve. Remember, he sees “beyond” the thousand thoughts – maybe to a worse future than even The Consult poses. The madness arises from the mad effort it’s taken him to vet out so many possibilities, stressing the probability trance. The Consult is not the only threat to humanity – there’s seismic and cosmic events that can do us in. And with nuclear power, we become our own threat as well. Remember, Bakker is a fan of Herbert, and this walk-through hell to empower is straight Herbert philosophy.
Title: Re: Here goes ...
Post by: BeardFisher-King on April 28, 2017, 06:10:12 pm
Helluva post, Tao. Obviously, I haven't read the whole thing, but I wanted to share with you my agreement on the practice of speculating on how the story will proceed. Some people like to do it; I'm not a fan, myself. What if someone stumbles on the Truth? You know what they say: get a thousand monkeys in front of a thousand typewriters and the works of Shakespeare will result.
Title: Re: Here goes ...
Post by: Wilshire on April 28, 2017, 06:15:29 pm
BFK, its more like if you have an infinite number of monkeys on an infinite number of typewriters, then over an infinite period of time you'll eventually get one that randomly reproduces shakespeare.

TaoHorror - this post deserves some extra time for scrutiny so I'll have to get back to it later when I've got some time to sit down with it :) . Thanks for posting.
Title: Re: Here goes ...
Post by: TaoHorror on April 28, 2017, 06:23:46 pm
The honor you do me of taking the time to critique is amazing, thank you!

Not making this up, I posted this and walked the dog ... for the first time in decades, can't even remember when last time this happened, a car load of kids raced by yelling profanities out the window at me, just random losers bored. That happening JUST after I make this post a coincidence? I think not! Hee hee ...
Title: Re: Here goes ...
Post by: BeardFisher-King on April 28, 2017, 06:29:13 pm
BFK, its more like if you have an infinite number of monkeys on an infinite number of typewriters, then over an infinite period of time you'll eventually get one that randomly reproduces shakespeare.
W, I stand corrected. <mutters "smart-ass, superior, sumbitch....">
Title: Re: Here goes ...
Post by: TaoHorror on April 28, 2017, 10:39:56 pm
Referring to your signature comment, Beard - I think some "thing" is actually "talking" to Kellus. I suspect it's the No-God or a "Consult" probing Kellus for details on his design. "What do you see?" could be a shortened version of What do you see ... in the future ... any response from Kellus could be leveraged to derail/thwart the shortest path to destroy the Consult/No-God. If you out of nowhere heard a voice in your head you were convinced sourced outside your consciousness, mere curiosity may drive you to respond. Even if you respond, "who are you?" or "where are you?" can betray vital information on what you know and don't know and can upend you emotionally as well regardless if it's not a back and forth communication.

If I'm wrong on that, it could be one of the "gods" talking to him. He says the gods are blind to the No-God ... perhaps one of them is "researching" the possibility and wants some "view" into the Consult's path ... to help humans, to help Consult or merely to just know ( a God not knowing something could drive it mad, lashing out to see ).
Title: Re: Here goes ...
Post by: Wilshire on May 01, 2017, 10:12:44 pm
Apologies from the start, haven’t read this forum or posted in a few years. Just found out a month ago TGO was out and finished reading it … which brought me here. I forget quite a few important details like why Moenghus left Ishual and how the Thousand Fold Thought was learned by Kellus – his father shared it or he discovered on his own? Guess I’ll have to reread the books – one of the benefits of having a weak memory, art is a new experience every time you see it  :)
Well, you're a bit late to the release party, but hey, better late than never. Any interest in Zaudunyanicon 2017?
Yeah from the looks of it, you absolutely do need to do a re-read. With TUC on the horizon, you'll want to primed and ready.
If you haven't done a full re-read of the series yet - man, you're in for a treat. Its far better the 2nd time.

I read this whole thread all at once, not organically as people posted, so I may have missed some nuance to the discussion. I’m going to address several points across threads on this post for efficiency. I haven’t read everything, so apologies for redundancy of covering toiled ground.
I think that's a perception problem that we have. People seem to want to read everything before they start, and so they create their own entrance barrier. Don't bother, most of us will have forgotten what was discussed previously any way.

That said, me thinks the measuring of millimeters to discover what Kellus’s true intention/direction may be misguided ( that or I’m simply not smart enough to see a massive hidden meaning beyond the thousands of supposed clues to the real game being played ).
But the Devil is in the details! You might be right though. Its easy to get bogged down in the minute. It probably wont be until TUC and beyond that it becomes clear which details were important and which were tangential to the discussion.

Bakker is a demon, for sure, nothing he’s writing is just to describe the “beautiful” landscape. But a lot of it is to build intrigue, or at least so I think since I read these books at the edge of my seat excitedly crying aloud, “dude, no way!”, frequently.

If TGO is any hint, TUC will be filled with those moments.


Not the sharpest knife in the drawer, I look at this simplistically. Kellus was raised with the Logos to achieve a purely self-moving soul ( I think this is Bakker exploring "finding the bottom of the bag" as he addresses in another of his books … whereas in Neuropath that exploration was purely scientific, what would it be like for a sect of humans devoted to accomplishing the same thing via conscious exploration ).
It certainly does seem like all of Bakker's works are interconnected in some way. He explores similar thoughts and themes, even through his short stories. I can't say I know what he's driving at, but there appears to be something there, just out of reach.

He’s sent away from the Dunyain to assassinate his father ( bit lost on the Survivor claiming no awareness of sorcery when Moënghus communicates to the Dunyain to send his son – sorcery – maybe they hushed that up or something ).
To clarify, we are told in the beginning of TDTCB that everyone who recieved the dreams was basically killed - sent to the TTT to die in solitude so as to not pollute the others. It stands to reason then that only Kellhus and those polluted by the dreams knew about the incident. In addition, remember that Kellhus himself disregarded the existance, or even the possability, of sorcery until he was nearly killed by that Nonman in the woods. For all their intellect, the Dunyain can be pretty stupid, especially when confronted with something new.

He learns of the world and of sorcery. For some reason, he’s taken to it – or maybe simply following his directive, not allowing “the world” to deter him. His son, the Survivor, didn’t take to it well at all, quickly dismissing 2,000 years of Dunyain effort and concludes the Absolute is zero, etc. The Survivor does enjoy the benefit of getting an upshot on the status of his soul with The Eye and when he “turns green” he’s like, fuck it, I’m good to join the absolute/god and commits suicide. I detect a mild slap at those of us who believe in religious salvation for if we’re confident we’re saved, no point on risking damnation – if you really are “saved”, best thing that could happen to you is a quick death. I digress …
Heh, never thought of it like that. Nice find ;) that's the kind of dark nod I'd expect from Bakker.

In short, I think Kellus set out to do what he was told – found out his father was powerful as all get out, potentially with sorcery ( unaware at first the water didn’t take for his pop, not one of the few ) and determined he needed massive power ( an army ) to overwhelm his father and kill him as directed. In the process/journey, he discovers ( again, don’t remember how ) the Thousand Fold Thought for which I took was the threading of the needle to save humanity from extinction. All that we’re seeing in the books is that path.
Agreed - I'm with you up to about here.

He’s taken up the task to save humanity. Because even though we’re children in his eyes he still feels connected and responsible to protect us like a parent? Because he’s a mad fucker who thought it would be fun to drive an army through hell to defeat an unbeatable enemy to show the planet whose boss? Don’t know for sure,
Eh, I'm not so sure. I don't see Kellhus as the altruistic type. To me, best case scenario, Kellhus is looking to usurp the Consult and have total dominion over Earwa. I don't subscribe to the "Kellhus is our lord and savior" rhetoric.


but I don’t identify with evidence brought up in this forum that he’s in cahoots with The Consult – this would be a massive rouse if that’s the case with the smell of cheap writing we see in television shows – to shock for shock’s sake, to surprise by drumming up something completely different with no clue to the viewer what’s coming. Pretty much anyone can do that … create a love story only to see the happy couple who traveled misunderstanding and tragedy together reaching a beautiful connection to only to be hacked up by a madman with a chainsaw in the end. It’s one thing to spin a yarn, quite another to fuck your readers over for the fun of it.
I'd the thoroughly disappointed  if we are blind-sided. Everything so far has been meticulously foreshadowed, whether or not we the readers realized it beforehand or after-the-fact. For what its worth, I don't think he's for the Consult either.
Something I think that Bakker is adamantly against is, as you say, "shock for shock's sake". There always seem to be a point, though I think he oftens obscures it a bit much and maybe whatever it was he was trying to say doesn't get made clear.


I think it's simpler - he sees an "end" and accepts his species evolutionary programming that the show should go on; maybe enjoying some of the hooks ( read: love ) that other humans indulge.

That's a pretty interesting take on things, and I'm not sure I've seen anyone put it quite like that. Bravo - you should post more :D

That all said, I do see Bakker’s writing teaching us something about the cost of us readers for “loving” or even rooting for Kellus – that loving those we see “higher” than ourselves is risking our own lives as well as our identity/humanity – simply, be careful dear reader in idolizing others. The lesson is to avoid being played and manipulated and for those “leaders” and “heroes” we love, we’re allowing them to use us – often not in our best interests. As long as Kellus is “working” for humanity, cool – if he deviates or violates that trajectory, don’t hesitate to kill him. I think that’s the lesson Kellus is giving Proyas, that his love of Kellus is holding him back, watering his ability to command the GO in Kellus’ absence. The rape was harsh, but maybe felt he had to do the non-man thing of marrying tragedy to an event so it will hit home with Proyas. Or maybe as metaphor as he breaks Proyas’ conditioning, “see what can happen when you put all your chips on one person” and/or just because I’m saving your hind sides from the furnace, doesn’t mean you should trust me.
You've hit the nail on the head there - at least for me. The books demand that the reader thinks. Demands that you challenge your assumptions, and look inwardly and then externally for the Kellhus' around us. For our own Darkness, and our own enigmatic hero figures. A cautionary tale of the dangers of blind trust - both in our own truths and assumptions, and in those that our idols thrust upon us.

Don’t like guessing the end of stories, I enjoy being surprised. But appears guessing is what we do here in this forum
Then don't. The last thing we need is people stepping in line around here. That's not what this is about - rules and decorum. Though I do advocate for participation, otherwise this place gets echo-y.


– so I’m going to take a stab at it. Kellus is having us ( humanity ) take out the Consult to strengthen us to overcome an even worse threat in the future. He sees us as too weak, too immature to endure or flourish. Feuding between each other has not strengthened us enough fend off extinction. An alien showed up to take us out 2,000 years ago and nearly succeeded. They’re still around, but haven’t struck again ( unknown, but I think The Consult was watching us self-destruct in lieu of them taking the risk of full frontal assault ). Seems like a good idea to take them out before the No-god shows up again. But more, it may well toughen us up and evolve. Remember, he sees “beyond” the thousand thoughts – maybe to a worse future than even The Consult poses. The madness arises from the mad effort it’s taken him to vet out so many possibilities, stressing the probability trance. The Consult is not the only threat to humanity – there’s seismic and cosmic events that can do us in. And with nuclear power, we become our own threat as well. Remember, Bakker is a fan of Herbert, and this walk-through hell to empower is straight Herbert philosophy.
I like it. I'm glad you took the time to think that through and post it. Like I said above, I think you have a unique take on things (well, you and all the other silent masses). That'll give me something to chew on for awhile.

Title: Re: Here goes ...
Post by: Wilshire on May 01, 2017, 10:14:17 pm
The honor you do me of taking the time to critique is amazing, thank you!
Don't do that.

Not making this up, I posted this and walked the dog ... for the first time in decades, can't even remember when last time this happened, a car load of kids raced by yelling profanities out the window at me, just random losers bored. That happening JUST after I make this post a coincidence? I think not! Hee hee ...
If this was TSA, I'd say there are no coincidences!

BFK, its more like if you have an infinite number of monkeys on an infinite number of typewriters, then over an infinite period of time you'll eventually get one that randomly reproduces shakespeare.
W, I stand corrected. <mutters "smart-ass, superior, sumbitch...."
Lol, exactly.

Out of time, I'll have to come back later for the rest ;)
Title: Re: Here goes ...
Post by: H on May 02, 2017, 12:14:26 pm
If this was TSA, I'd say there are no coincidences!

No such thing as coincidences in "real life" either.

Don’t like guessing the end of stories, I enjoy being surprised. But appears guessing is what we do here in this forum – so I’m going to take a stab at it. Kellus is having us ( humanity ) take out the Consult to strengthen us to overcome an even worse threat in the future. He sees us as too weak, too immature to endure or flourish. Feuding between each other has not strengthened us enough fend off extinction. An alien showed up to take us out 2,000 years ago and nearly succeeded. They’re still around, but haven’t struck again ( unknown, but I think The Consult was watching us self-destruct in lieu of them taking the risk of full frontal assault ). Seems like a good idea to take them out before the No-god shows up again. But more, it may well toughen us up and evolve. Remember, he sees “beyond” the thousand thoughts – maybe to a worse future than even The Consult poses. The madness arises from the mad effort it’s taken him to vet out so many possibilities, stressing the probability trance. The Consult is not the only threat to humanity – there’s seismic and cosmic events that can do us in. And with nuclear power, we become our own threat as well. Remember, Bakker is a fan of Herbert, and this walk-through hell to empower is straight Herbert philosophy.

I think there may be more of an allegorical tale here, tied to the Consult, a la, the Inchoroi, came to be.  Consider that the Inchoroi were probably once little different than humans, or Nonmen, in the sense that they were short(er) lived, probably concerned with the same sort of trivialities that humans are.

Something changed though.  Perhaps it was (like what happened to the Nonmen) the increase in life-span.  Or perhaps it was the physical modification.  In any case, the Inchoroi mastered he Bios and in doing so, transformed themselves into "more."  The issue, of course, was the resultant societal change.  Unshackled by any physical limitations, or biological ones, what was  to stop them from remaking themselves in their own imagined image?

It's a post-human allegory.  Once unfettered by biology, why bother being limited by it?  What is to stop you from embracing a pleasure principle at all times?  Once more is the order of the day, less is never really an option.  And once on that path, where does it ever end?

But the Inchoroi were not just unfettered by biology, they seek to be unfettered from the further metaphysical limitations of damnation.  In other words, in Earwa, there are metaphysical consequences to which the Inchoroi seeks to exempt themselves from as well.  In other words, meaning is objective in that universe and so the Inchoroi seek to conquer this "limitation" as well, viewing it as simply a logical extension of the limitations places on them biologically.

It's a big-time rabbit hole to go down, one that has us looking at what the role of meaning, limitations, and metaphysical implications really are.  I'm probably not smart enough/qualified to really broach all of these things fully, so this mish-mosh of ideas is what you get, haha.
Title: Re: Here goes ...
Post by: BeardFisher-King on May 02, 2017, 01:02:32 pm
Given Bakker's philosophical concerns, I agree with H. on the Inchoroi.

Query: Are there REALLY only two surviving Inchoroi? I'm thinking there must be more.....I await TUC and our first real look at Golgotterath.
Title: Re: Here goes ...
Post by: H on May 02, 2017, 01:18:41 pm
Given Bakker's philosophical concerns, I agree with H. on the Inchoroi.

Query: Are there REALLY only two surviving Inchoroi? I'm thinking there must be more.....I await TUC and our first real look at Golgotterath.

I think there really are just two, honestly.  Only 6 survived the Graft to see the Onta.  What happened to the other 4 is not really known, but while I think that Inchoroi are technically immortal, it certainly seems that their physical forms are not immutable.  Aurang would once have been tremendous and strong, yet even as to the False Sun, he is no where near as physically intimidating.  It's unclear if that is a result of the Grafts, or just atrophy over time though.

For all we know though, perhaps Aurang and Aurax cannibalized the other 4, or attempted further Grafts on them which ended up killing them.
Title: Re: Here goes ...
Post by: BeardFisher-King on May 02, 2017, 01:47:24 pm
Given Bakker's philosophical concerns, I agree with H. on the Inchoroi.

Query: Are there REALLY only two surviving Inchoroi? I'm thinking there must be more.....I await TUC and our first real look at Golgotterath.

I think there really are just two, honestly.  Only 6 survived the Graft to see the Onta.  What happened to the other 4 is not really known, but while I think that Inchoroi are technically immortal, it certainly seems that their physical forms are not immutable.  Aurang would once have been tremendous and strong, yet even as to the False Sun, he is no where near as physically intimidating.  It's unclear if that is a result of the Grafts, or just atrophy over time though.

For all we know though, perhaps Aurang and Aurax cannibalized the other 4, or attempted further Grafts on them which ended up killing them.
I'm sorry, but how do we know about the 6 Inchoroi surviving the Graft?
Title: Re: Here goes ...
Post by: H on May 02, 2017, 02:06:33 pm
Given Bakker's philosophical concerns, I agree with H. on the Inchoroi.

Query: Are there REALLY only two surviving Inchoroi? I'm thinking there must be more.....I await TUC and our first real look at Golgotterath.

I think there really are just two, honestly.  Only 6 survived the Graft to see the Onta.  What happened to the other 4 is not really known, but while I think that Inchoroi are technically immortal, it certainly seems that their physical forms are not immutable.  Aurang would once have been tremendous and strong, yet even as to the False Sun, he is no where near as physically intimidating.  It's unclear if that is a result of the Grafts, or just atrophy over time though.

For all we know though, perhaps Aurang and Aurax cannibalized the other 4, or attempted further Grafts on them which ended up killing them.
I'm sorry, but how do we know about the 6 Inchoroi surviving the Graft?

Bakker told us in an interview (http://fantasyhotlist.blogspot.ca/2011/07/r-scott-bakker-interview-part-2.html).

Quote
Is Aurang special amongst the Inchoroi in his ability to use Sorcery? Or were all Inchoroi, his brother included, amongst the Few?

The Inchoroi only possessed the Tekne when they arrived in Eärwa. All of the Inchoroi are the products of successive Graftings, species-wide rewrites of their genotype, meant to enhance various abilities and capacities, such as the ability to elicit certain sexual responses from their victims (via pheromone locks), or the capacity to ‘tune sensations’ and so explore the vagaries and vicissitudes of carnal pleasure. The addition of anthropomorphic vocal apparatuses is perhaps the most famous of these enhancements.

The Grafting that produced Aurang and Aurax was also devised during the age-long C no-Inchoroi Wars, one of many failed attempts to biologically redesign themselves to overcome the Nonmen. But they had been outrun by their debauchery by this time, and had lost any comprehensive understanding of the Tekne. The Graftings had become a matter of guesswork, more likely to kill than enhance those who received them. The Inchoroi filled the Wells of the Aborted with their own in those days.

Aurang and Aurax are two of six who survived the attempt to Graft the ability to see the onta.
Title: Re: Here goes ...
Post by: MG on May 02, 2017, 03:15:14 pm
HI TAOHORROR!  GOOD TO SEE YOU!  I'VE GROWN TO LOVE DUNE MORE BECAUSE OF BAKKER :)
Title: Re: Here goes ...
Post by: MSJ on May 02, 2017, 04:58:22 pm
Quote from:  Wilshire
That's a pretty interesting take on things, and I'm not sure I've seen anyone put it quite like that. Bravo - you should post more :D

<cough....cough>
I've been saying for 2 years now that Kellhus is being driven more and more by emotion, and I thought TGO offered some great examples.....yet, this is the first you've heard this? No offense TaoHorror, I count you as one of the smart ones. Its just me and you, mind you.

Yet, every time that dann H posts he seems to convince me otherwise. H, he makes a very good argument.
Title: Re: Here goes ...
Post by: H on May 02, 2017, 05:37:26 pm
Quote from:  Wilshire
That's a pretty interesting take on things, and I'm not sure I've seen anyone put it quite like that. Bravo - you should post more :D

<cough....cough>
I've been saying for 2 years now that Kellhus is being driven more and more by emotion, and I thought TGO offered some great examples.....yet, this is the first you've heard this? No offense TaoHorror, I count you as one of the smart ones. Its just me and you, mind you.

Yet, every time that dann H posts he seems to convince me otherwise. H, he makes a very good argument.

Haha.  I think post TGO, it's clear that there is some emotionalality there, but what isn' clear is how it is really effecting him.  Is it driving him, or is he simply considering it as yet another variable?  Not going to write another short book on it though, because it's really ambiguous in any case.
Title: Re: Here goes ...
Post by: Wilshire on May 02, 2017, 05:43:47 pm
Quote from:  Wilshire
That's a pretty interesting take on things, and I'm not sure I've seen anyone put it quite like that. Bravo - you should post more :D

<cough....cough>
I've been saying for 2 years now that Kellhus is being driven more and more by emotion, and I thought TGO offered some great examples.....yet, this is the first you've heard this? No offense TaoHorror, I count you as one of the smart ones. Its just me and you, mind you.

Yet, every time that dann H posts he seems to convince me otherwise. H, he makes a very good argument.
Man, its not all about you sometimes. TH's position differs specifically and explicitly from your own. Don't steal credit :P , though yes there are similarities. (and regardless, lets encourage participation, not exclude it)

Title: Re: Here goes ...
Post by: MSJ on May 02, 2017, 05:59:48 pm
Lol. It was a joke. And, what is this, "it's not all about you"? When has it ever been about mme, lol.

ETA: I wasn't trying to discourage participation, as I said him and I thought alike. In all honestly there really is not much difference in what TH proposed. I've always thought that Kellhus is becoming more human, through emotion. Those emotions are what make him want to "save" humanity. TaoHorror worded it a bit differently, same gist though.

Title: Re: Here goes ...
Post by: Madness on May 02, 2017, 06:23:12 pm
I'd have to read through TH's post again more closely but I didn't really interpret him as reflecting on Kellhus and emotions as you have, MSJ. I think that's what Wilshire was jokingly trying to point out - it reads more as projection on your part.

Then again, we all read and interpret to support our own personal theoretical commitments either way, moer or less. I just think Wilshire was suggesting there is less MSJ in TH's post than you seem to perceive.

Also, as far as flame-claiming goes, I suggested on ZTS in my original, teenage naivety, that TAE would be about a Kellhus who was once Dunyain but became a man ;).
Title: Re: Here goes ...
Post by: H on May 02, 2017, 06:27:31 pm
Also, as far as flame-claiming goes, I suggested on ZTS in my original, teenage naivety, that TAE would be about a Kellhus who was once Dunyain but became a man ;).

 :P

What did he know...  ;)

Not that I am fully buying it, really...
Title: Re: Here goes ...
Post by: Madness on May 02, 2017, 06:30:51 pm
Also, as far as flame-claiming goes, I suggested on ZTS in my original, teenage naivety, that TAE would be about a Kellhus who was once Dunyain but became a man ;).

 :P

What did he know...  ;)

Not that I am fully buying it, really...

Lol - he knew basically a little less fuck all than it does now. Which is still fuck all ;).
Title: Re: Here goes ...
Post by: H on May 02, 2017, 06:40:16 pm
Lol - he knew basically a little less fuck all than it does now. Which is still fuck all ;).

Old Me figured the the No-God was simply just a tool.  New Me knows that.  So I guess we are getting somewhere, even if that is still the middle of nowhere, haha.
Title: Re: Here goes ...
Post by: MSJ on May 02, 2017, 06:46:24 pm
I was not speaking to the whole post, sorry if that was what was thought. Just the small bit about saving humans because of emotions, or love as TH put it.
Title: Re: Here goes ...
Post by: MG on May 02, 2017, 08:15:21 pm
Lol - he knew basically a little less fuck all than it does now. Which is still fuck all ;).

Old Me figured the the No-God was simply just a tool.  New Me knows that.  So I guess we are getting somewhere, even if that is still the middle of nowhere, haha.

H COMES BEFORE!!!
Title: Re: Here goes ...
Post by: Madness on May 02, 2017, 08:57:22 pm
I was not speaking to the whole post, sorry if that was what was thought. Just the small bit about saving humans because of emotions, or love as TH put it.

Ah, if you highlighted that above I didn't see it. I rarely read threads in sequence anymore.
Title: Re: Here goes ...
Post by: MSJ on May 02, 2017, 10:41:48 pm
I was not speaking to the whole post, sorry if that was what was thought. Just the small bit about saving humans because of emotions, or love as TH put it.

Ah, if you highlighted that above I didn't see it. I rarely read threads in sequence anymore.

Wilshire was quoting different sections of TaoHorror's post and I just quoted his response to that specific part of the post. I meant no harm by it.
Title: Re: Here goes ...
Post by: Madness on May 02, 2017, 10:59:02 pm
All good, friend :).
Title: Re: Here goes ...
Post by: Wilshire on May 03, 2017, 12:00:10 am
I was not speaking to the whole post, sorry if that was what was thought. Just the small bit about saving humans because of emotions, or love as TH put it.

Ah, if you highlighted that above I didn't see it. I rarely read threads in sequence anymore.

Wilshire was quoting different sections of TaoHorror's post and I just quoted his response to that specific part of the post. I meant no harm by it.

Just breakin' your balls man. I threw the emoticon in there to try and disarm my post a bit - I come off as overly serious all the time, not your fault.
Title: Re: Here goes ...
Post by: TaoHorror on May 03, 2017, 02:38:48 am
Normally I would thank you all for the kindness you gave me in responding to my post – but Wilshire MANDATED me not to … so a warm fuck you to all of you. I’ve exposed you, Wilshire, as being a Mandate schoolman – careful, I have a nice selection of chorea, one with your name etched on it … hee, hee – all from love, my man, just rockin on your “busting balls” comment.  ;D

So, it comes down to what is K doing … appears none of us know for sure yet. I guess I give Esmenet’s explanation much credit when she tells the girl in the previous book about Kellhus deceiving/using everyone to save everyone’s lives. If that is true, if Esmenet is accurate, then the question is motivation. Either K doesn’t want to be lonely, even the company of children is better than no one at all or he feels connected to humanity in some way. I think we connect with each other in a more interesting way than evolution can explain – love. We love people who have died and life loss can reduce people to ruins ( hard to explain the evolutionary benefit of enduring severe trauma for the departed – sadness to ensure we avoid it ourselves could be evolution, but carrying on for years … ). Either he’s following evolutionary instinct to ensure humanity endures ( which I think we all agree his Duynain conditioning would prohibit this ) or he at bare minimum “likes” humanity enough to dedicate a good portion of his life to saving it.

If indeed he conned his way to power ( appear he did, he wasn’t a prince among other lies/deceptions ), hard to imagine it was as another human does simply for the sake of power – seems his Dunyain mind would not find pleasure with power, especially over those he manipulates so easily.

Seems there’s more purpose to his design than to simply perform a task – he’s into it. I don’t think he’s compelled out of sense of duty to save us ( evolution ) nor is he doing it just to avoid loneliness ( a good reason, but seems more to it ) … I get a sense of joy in him figuring it out ( maybe the Dunyain drive to figure everything out ) and enjoys “hanging” with humans. Could be he’s learning how to love.

I like Beard’s way of putting it, he left Dunyain and returned a man. The celebration of what it is to really be human, to feel as a human can - but at the same time, knowing we can be more. Through this whole madness of crazed violence, I see beauty – humanity standing, taking flight. Saubon's response when he realized certain doom at Dagliash to keep on fighting was amazing - he knew this is what it is to feel truly alive, risking your life for something more and not just sitting in the air conditioning as I am now typing away.

I think Bakker’s self-proclaimed cynicism doesn’t stem from a broken heart of humanity falling short or consumed with pettiness, but a happy stare at what we can be. This isn’t a horror novel – it’s beauty born from horror, perhaps even a romance novel ( sorry, had to throw in the romance novel bit to fuck with you ).
Title: Re: Here goes ...
Post by: H on May 03, 2017, 11:09:54 am
I think the Voice, and Kellhus' acknowledgement of the Voice as a "guiding" factor, kind of confounds at least something of the idea that Kellhus aim is entirely altruistic, or based off some idealistic view of humanity.

Neither the status quo, being the exploitation of the souled to sate the 100's hunger, nor the polar opposite of the Consult's plan to end it all entirely are really sustainable outcomes.  Kellhus realizes that the system is broken and a new system is needed.  While this results in a "saving" of humanity, all the better.  Kellhus is the eschaton for real.  Not in the sense that Earwa is dead, but in the send that the Old Times are over and a New Order is beginning.
Title: Re: Here goes ...
Post by: BeardFisher-King on May 03, 2017, 11:17:44 am
Credit where credit is due, Tao; it was Madness who came up with the "Dûnyain --> man" idea.
Title: Re: Here goes ...
Post by: TaoHorror on May 03, 2017, 12:47:02 pm
H ( is that a Hannibal reference? ): "a New System is needed" ... why would he conclude that if he didn't care? A new system for whom? The people he doesn't care about? Altuism is not necessarily the same thing as "liking". It appears he at least likes humanity, otherwise, why bother? The joy of power over the ants? That seems beneath him. But remember, K felt empathy for the defective he was studying and then consciously cast it aside "deciding" it was weakness to feel for a "defective" ... it appears he was born with empathy - did the horror of the world kill it? Does he try to kill it off, himself? Can he ( or anyone ) kill off their emotions or do our emotional state simply changes when we try to kill it? If you're suggesting elevating humans to thwart the gods he hates, now that is interesting.

Beard: trying to follow you, you're proclaiming you're mad? Or someone in this forum changed your mind? Or I'm mad for suggesting K has emotions? Am I making excuses to validate why I "like" the guy? I don't like him, but admit I like the idea of humanity stomping out the aliens/Consult.

I still get confused about what the Consult actually are - I think I learned from my posts 3 years ago that they are humans/magi who teamed with the aliens and learned Tekne and now don't age and therefore have taken up the charge with the aliens to rid Earwa of humans ... please feel free to correct me on this, I'm still unclear.

Think the book stated "hundreds" of shriekers perished in the thousand thousand halls ... seems like an incredible blow to the Consult to lose so many. Perhaps Kellus lured the Consult to Ishual whereby a battle with the Dunyain would whittle down their numbers to make them weaker, easier to defeat? Even if smart tactics, K had no intention of returning to the Dunyain - at the very least shirking his homeland if not outright ridding himself of the pursuit of the Absolute. Either there are bigger fish to fry or he came to same realization his son did, just reacted differently to the realization, which makes sense since their first interaction with the "real" world were so different ( K met hordes of humans, but didn't encounter the Eye for years ( maybe not at all, not sure if he knew of Mimara's Eye ), while Survivor only met 2 who were hellbent on killing him, but meets the Eye right off the bat ). Circumstance plays a bigger role in our identity than we would own up to or like it to have.
Title: Re: Here goes ...
Post by: MSJ on May 03, 2017, 01:21:19 pm
Yes, throughout the whole series there are clues that Kellhus is not just a Dunyain with his only purpose to obtain Absolute. His convo with Moe, with "his heart would crash to ruin" if he lost Esme. The Circumfix, when he literally loses his shit because Sërwe dies and he's responsible for it. I believe that he came back to Momemn to save Esme and the remnants of his Empire. He is hurt when he sees betrayal written on Esme's face. And then, there are other, tiny little clues scattered throughout the entire series.

Of course, he is Dunyain and those methods have a effect on his actions as well. Here's what I think. That once he felt love (Sërwe and Esme) and that damnation is the only course you can take in the Outside, that is when he seen further than Moe. Moe's TTT was to destroy the Consult, whom he learned of through the skinspies. Kellhus has taken it further and wants to give humans a chance at salvation, as H said, to begin anew, a New Age.
Title: Re: Here goes ...
Post by: H on May 03, 2017, 01:56:36 pm
H ( is that a Hannibal reference? ): "a New System is needed" ... why would he conclude that if he didn't care? A new system for whom? The people he doesn't care about? Altuism is not necessarily the same thing as "liking". It appears he at least likes humanity, otherwise, why bother? The joy of power over the ants? That seems beneath him. But remember, K felt empathy for the defective he was studying and then consciously cast it aside "deciding" it was weakness to feel for a "defective" ... it appears he was born with empathy - did the horror of the world kill it? Does he try to kill it off, himself? Can he ( or anyone ) kill off their emotions or do our emotional state simply changes when we try to kill it? If you're suggesting elevating humans to thwart the gods he hates, now that is interesting.

The name doesn't really reference anything too specific, it's just a short, easy-to-remember call-sign.  If it was, it would be to the Tool song H., but it's just where I got the idea, not really the song itself (although I do like that song).

On your point.  It's not really that he doesn't care.  My theory is not that he doesn't have emotions, or that he doesn't consider them, but rather that they are all just data to him.  This isn't really how we work, but it is how he works.  He doesn't just do something because it "seems right" or because he "feels it is right."  He simply does what must be done, because it must be done.  Sometimes, that is in line with how he feels.  Sometimes it is not.  I don't really buy that feeling is what is guiding him. In fact, I don't beleive it is his "rational mind" or the Probability Trance that guides him either.  The Thousandfold Thought is at once him and beyond him.  He is a gear in it's working as much as he is the engine driving it.

To attempt to summarize my position more succictly, I beleive he is something of "emotion considering" not "emotion driven."

I still get confused about what the Consult actually are - I think I learned from my posts 3 years ago that they are humans/magi who teamed with the aliens and learned Tekne and now don't age and therefore have taken up the charge with the aliens to rid Earwa of humans ... please feel free to correct me on this, I'm still unclear.

Basically, yes, but there is a little more to it.  Have you read the Atrocity Tale, The False Sun yet?  It's free on Bakker's Blog (https://rsbakker.wordpress.com/stories/the-false-sun/).  I think it will give you a little more understanding of who they are.

Think the book stated "hundreds" of shriekers perished in the thousand thousand halls ... seems like an incredible blow to the Consult to lose so many. Perhaps Kellus lured the Consult to Ishual whereby a battle with the Dunyain would whittle down their numbers to make them weaker, easier to defeat? Even if smart tactics, K had no intention of returning to the Dunyain - at the very least shirking his homeland if not outright ridding himself of the pursuit of the Absolute. Either there are bigger fish to fry or he came to same realization his son did, just reacted differently to the realization, which makes sense since their first interaction with the "real" world were so different ( K met hordes of humans, but didn't encounter the Eye for years ( maybe not at all, not sure if he knew of Mimara's Eye ), while Survivor only met 2 who were hellbent on killing him, but meets the Eye right off the bat ). Circumstance plays a bigger role in our identity than we would own up to or like it to have.

I've posited elsewhere that the Dunyain are simply tools, no different than the Sranc, in the grand scheme of things.  In fact, TGO even parallels the two for us conveniently.  The Consult really doesn't understand Kellhus' motivation and so, in thinking that the Dunyain still had a role to play, they threw everything and the kitchen sink at them.  They simply where too much of a threat to leave out in the open.  But it was a honey-pot.

Kellhus had no intention of ever "reusing" the Dunyain.  Still, that is a risk that the Consult couldn't take.  A legion of meta-Gnositics is nothing to scoff at.  Bad enough as it is.  However, Kellhus already knew that, so it was a free move for him.

The Thousandfold Thought is prepared for all these eventualities, because it is predicated beyond Before and After.  Things happen before that only make sense after, a distinct violation of the natural laws.  And yet, that is why Kellhus is so wildly successful.  The Consult cannot precede him, because he has already preceded their every move.  The Thousandfold Thought comes not from the Here and Now, but they There and Future.  Only something outside (Outside) of time completely could really stand a chance.
Title: Re: Here goes ...
Post by: Madness on May 03, 2017, 02:35:19 pm
Credit where credit is due, Tao; it was Madness who came up with the "Dûnyain --> man" idea.

Lol - I think I've said it once, just now. I don't know if it's something I "came up with" even back on ZTS.
Title: Re: Here goes ...
Post by: TaoHorror on May 03, 2017, 02:54:30 pm
Oh, there's someone in this forum called "Madness" ... I thought Beard was saying he said it from his own madness ( as in insanity ), maybe an idea he had but now thinking it was a bad one.

I am one confused mofo, thanks for bearing with me! I'm getting there.
Title: Re: Here goes ...
Post by: MSJ on May 03, 2017, 03:15:00 pm
Quote from:  H
On your point.  It's not really that he doesn't care.  My theory is not that he doesn't have emotions, or that he doesn't consider them, but rather that they are all just data to him.  This isn't really how we work, but it is how he works.  He doesn't just do something because it "seems right" or because he "feels it is right."  He simply does what must be done, because it must be done.  Sometimes, that is in line with how he feels.  Sometimes it is not.

I'm just pointing out how you're contradicting yourself here. You say he has no emotions, then go on to say that sometimes what he does, aligns with what he feels. Lol.

I get what your saying, Kellhus is indeed the tough nut to crack.
Title: Re: Here goes ...
Post by: Madness on May 03, 2017, 03:15:06 pm
Oh, there's someone in this forum called "Madness"

Bless your heart, sweet child :).
Title: Re: Here goes ...
Post by: H on May 03, 2017, 04:17:13 pm
I'm just pointing out how you're contradicting yourself here. You say he has no emotions, then go on to say that sometimes what he does, aligns with what he feels. Lol.

I get what your saying, Kellhus is indeed the tough nut to crack.

No, I am saying he does have emotion, but I fail to see it being a driver of him.  Just because he considers the emotional aspect of actions, doesn't mean he is driven by them.

Sure, it's something of a semantic difference, but to me it's an important distinction.  The Thousandfold Thought is not a plan predicated on, or driven by, a feeling.  It's a rational (however unlikely) plan, based on itself making itself true, to a very specific (if unknown) aim.  I don't think it was formed by sentimentality, although it was possibly a part of it.  It's a rational choice, between life and death.  You don't really need too much emotion to feel that life is better than death.  You don't need it to choose salvation over damnation either.

I guess there is a case to be made, and I think you have made a good one, that Kellhus advocates for "everyone's" benefit, which is probably mostly true.  Yet, I still doubt it is for purely altruistic motives, or sentimental ones either.  He sure didn't advocate for Theli and that's his daughter.  But in the grand scheme of things, what happens to benefit Kellhus, happens to benefit humans as well.  It's not purely selfish, but not altruistic either.  It's somewhere in between.  It's still a rational plan though.

We always go back and forth on this and I don't think we'll really ever get an actual answer to the question though.
Title: Re: Here goes ...
Post by: BeardFisher-King on May 03, 2017, 05:05:03 pm
Oh, there's someone in this forum called "Madness" ... I thought Beard was saying he said it from his own madness ( as in insanity ), maybe an idea he had but now thinking it was a bad one.

I am one confused mofo, thanks for bearing with me! I'm getting there.
Lmfao! That is hilarious, Tao!

What, I say, what would give you the slightest impression that I suffer from any.....misperception of reality or instability of temperament?

Btw, you should check out my "Name That Comic!" Contest. Deadline is Friday,  May 3rd, 10:00pm GMT. (5:00pm CDT). Now...would a crazy person start such a thread?
Title: Re: Here goes ...
Post by: TaoHorror on May 03, 2017, 06:52:36 pm
No, no, no - hee, hee - I think you play with me. I don't know you, Beard - but definitely seem like the kind of chap I would like to get to know ( read: I dig your weirdness ). Right now I feel like Spider in Good Fellas ... I thought YOU said your take on Kellhus came from ... oh, sigh, nevermind.

Anyways, nothing of your expression on this forum yields evidence you sport an abnormal degree of mental challenges ( er, at least not to me ).

One thing I've culled from the reading - Kellhus likes to fuck! Apparently just about anything/anyone ... wouldn't surprise me if the Consult creeps up on him fucking a ( dead or live - or collection of both ) shranc. Makes me wonder if the whole selecting for genes thing yielded a strong strain of homosexuality with the Anasurimbors ( e.g. Moenghus with Cnuir, Kellhus with Proyas ). Or maybe his fucks are simply tools as well - no pleasure, eh, Kellhus?

Speaking of fucking and "discreet slaps", the scene with Sorweel pleasuring himself spying Serwa and Moenghus going at it - a ribbing at those of us who enjoy pornography?

- TH
Title: Re: Here goes ...
Post by: BeardFisher-King on May 03, 2017, 07:22:57 pm
Yes, I jest....very kind compliment, thanks.

About Kellhus: I think his fucks are tools. Conditioning the Ground. But I also agree with the line of thought that argues the experience on the Circumfix changed Kellhus, and he is now more than a scrutinizing/calculating Dûnyain. Yet, he is still a Dûnyain. What a character!
Title: Re: Here goes ...
Post by: BeardFisher-King on May 03, 2017, 07:59:46 pm
Oh, and regarding (talk about le môt juste!) the Sorweel-as-voyeur scene: perhaps you are right. It could also be, since it is the climax (so to speak) of Sorweel's arc in WLW, another cautionary warning about "digging too deep" and seeking after dangerous knowledge. Or just a brutal portrayal of human heartbreak. So many levels to Bakker's writing....
Title: Re: Here goes ...
Post by: MSJ on May 03, 2017, 09:32:11 pm
We always go back and forth on this and I don't think we'll really ever get an actual answer to the question though.

Eh, all in good fun. Actually while I think my side of the argument is more of what I want. There's clues there, but I dont think we're to far apart to begin with. Its a little detail that's seperates why he is doing what he's doing. But..

(click to show/hide)

[EDIT Madness: Just specified your spoiler tag.]
Title: Re: Here goes ...
Post by: TaoHorror on May 03, 2017, 10:56:45 pm
Hmm - still working on this whole blog thing, not just second-apocalypse.com ... In the above post I see a "spoiler tag" from The Unholy Consult - do I understand this correctly that if I click on it, some content of the next book is revealed/discussed? Hard to see how that can be given the book has not been released ... have some of you received advanced copies?
Title: Re: Here goes ...
Post by: MSJ on May 03, 2017, 11:45:03 pm
Yes, TH, that's how it works. It is very minor and something revealed on another forum by Wert. Wert reviews Bakker's books and I'm sure there is a thread here with the stuff he did leading up to TGO on the Nonman mansions.

[ spoiler ].......text....[/ spoiler ]
That's how you hide a spoiler, just remove the spaces on both ends of the word spoiler.

ETA: Madness and banhammer Wilshire will amend our post and spoilers, because we are idiots...some of us. I don't know how he got TUC in the spoiler. He was just making the spoiler clearer.
Title: Re: Here goes ...
Post by: MSJ on May 04, 2017, 12:15:17 am
TH, Wert (Wertzone) and Pat (from Pat's fantasy hotlist), have both received a ARC. I expect their review shortly. But, from Wert's comment at Westeros just a bit ago, it seems like any review will be very short and non-descriptive. From all the info he's given, TUC is itself one huge giant info dump. He said theories will be confirmed and many will go down in flames.

As Madness mentioned in another thread, ARC's will start being sent out and be available on EBay. Then there will be a few who get lucky and get their hands on one. At least we did last year.
Title: Re: Here goes ...
Post by: TaoHorror on May 04, 2017, 01:03:18 am
Ah, thank you! I've already pre-ordered/paid for my copy from Amazon, says it's being released in July.

Not to get all sappy on everyone - but Bakker's descriptions of the "first" apocalypse have effected me, his description of horror is so much more powerful than anything I've read, including Herbert and Simmons, which screams a lot. The dragons dropping from the skies, snatching up humans was really horrifying to me. This idea of humans being so defenseless to something not human ... at risk of exposing my species conceit, but it's unnatural. Bakker takes the next step of a species overwhelming us, not just a mono a mono fight ( like a single human with no tools/weapons being overcome by a tiger for example ), but all of humanity, "naked", before something so powerful. And the terribleness of magic ( that fight with the Slvendi in the first book was just frightening, imagining people "walking" into the sky with the light shining out of the mouths and eyes ) - the mass MURDER of such a thing. This is the most plausible take on fantasy I've read - for dragons and magic would be the stuff of horror, not some interesting cool thing. Other books have people riding dragons and teaching magic in schools to children ... no ... it would be a fucked up nightmare.
Title: Re: Here goes ...
Post by: MSJ on May 04, 2017, 02:11:24 am
TH, we are indeed kindred spirits. I've mentioned many times on this forum about when the sorcerers stepped into the skies at that same point as horrifying. It was the first time reading a book that I got scared. Scared isn't the right word though, it definitely made me know I was reading something truly different.

So many parts of the book touch a part of your soul and it sticks. The epilogue of TWP when they are questioning about "WHO ARE THE DUNYAIN?", is gut wrenching. When Cnaüir rapes Proyas, I was at once jubilant and sick to my stomach. Bakker is like no other author I've ever read, point blank. It makes finding something to read quite the challenge.
Title: Re: Here goes ...
Post by: H on May 04, 2017, 11:28:57 am
We always go back and forth on this and I don't think we'll really ever get an actual answer to the question though.

Eh, all in good fun. Actually while I think my side of the argument is more of what I want. There's clues there, but I dont think we're to far apart to begin with. Its a little detail that's seperates why he is doing what he's doing.

Yeah, I think it's mostly semantics, and we've both probably done more to clarify each other's position than anything else.

It will be neat to see how it really shakes out in the end and how much we get by way of actual answers.

TTT is still my favorite of the series, so I am fully expecting this one to be my next favorite, if not supplant TTT.
Title: Re: Here goes ...
Post by: TaoHorror on May 04, 2017, 02:15:27 pm
I kinda agree on the TTT simply because it's quite challenging ( or so it appears, I'm no writer ) to end a story with the same intrigue/intensity of the lead up - SO many authors fail to end a story well. Many seem quite good at spinning a tale, but the ending is weak ( for lack of a better term, unsatisfactory ). The end of TTT was the rare gem well surpassing my expectations. It was exciting, fun, rich with cool detail, a panic from beginning to end. That said, either I'm just getting more and more into the story or me thinks his writing is getting better and better. He's doing a better job of "screwing us over" by dropping a story line at a panic moment only to go to another thread for which that turns into an omg moment and goes back and you're like, fuck you, Bakker! Awesome stuff ...
Title: Re: Here goes ...
Post by: Madness on May 04, 2017, 02:31:07 pm
I happen to think he's only gotten better over time somehow :).
Title: Re: Here goes ...
Post by: MSJ on May 04, 2017, 02:36:05 pm
Well, one of the things I've always found that makes his writing beautiful (and him explaining this only made me realize it. I always liked it but could never put it into words.), is how when the action picks up, he slows down and it becomes poetic. With most authors its frantic.
Title: Re: Here goes ...
Post by: Moosehunter on May 04, 2017, 03:33:12 pm
TH, we are indeed kindred spirits. I've mentioned many times on this forum about when the sorcerers stepped into the skies at that same point as horrifying. It was the first time reading a book that I got scared. Scared isn't the right word though, it definitely made me know I was reading something truly different.

So many parts of the book touch a part of your soul and it sticks. The epilogue of TWP when they are questioning about "WHO ARE THE DUNYAIN?", is gut wrenching. When Cnaüir rapes Proyas, I was at once jubilant and sick to my stomach. Bakker is like no other author I've ever read, point blank. It makes finding something to read quite the challenge.

Cnauir raped Proyas?

I remember him raping Conphas and i remember Kelhus raping Proyas. Tell me i haven't missed something that important.

Ah, thank you! I've already pre-ordered/paid for my copy from Amazon, says it's being released in July.

Not to get all sappy on everyone - but Bakker's descriptions of the "first" apocalypse have effected me, his description of horror is so much more powerful than anything I've read, including Herbert and Simmons, which screams a lot. The dragons dropping from the skies, snatching up humans was really horrifying to me. This idea of humans being so defenseless to something not human ... at risk of exposing my species conceit, but it's unnatural. Bakker takes the next step of a species overwhelming us, not just a mono a mono fight ( like a single human with no tools/weapons being overcome by a tiger for example ), but all of humanity, "naked", before something so powerful. And the terribleness of magic ( that fight with the Slvendi in the first book was just frightening, imagining people "walking" into the sky with the light shining out of the mouths and eyes ) - the mass MURDER of such a thing. This is the most plausible take on fantasy I've read - for dragons and magic would be the stuff of horror, not some interesting cool thing. Other books have people riding dragons and teaching magic in schools to children ... no ... it would be a fucked up nightmare.

I too have never felt horror in the way Bakker imparts it to us.

When facing the Sranc, mankind is aware that if they lose they won't just die. They will die screaming while being mated with in every orifice and wound.
It's a horrific thought and the end of  TWP (I think) has always stuck with me. The men of the tribe kneeling on the ground while the Sranc (and Aurang)are defiling their loved ones...........knowing they are next.

I also really felt the horror of the Non-Men was portrayed extremely effectively in TGO. Living with the knowledge that you have forgotten all that you had once loved. Your choices to remain ignorant or to perpetrate some horrific act in order to remember your past (and thus no longer being that which you remember). The carvings and sculptures on every surface of the Mansion, depicting great deeds but between every epic scene were thousands of images of small and intimate family moments.

It's no accident that Bakker knows how to press our buttons given his primary occupation.
Title: Re: Here goes ...
Post by: Wilshire on May 04, 2017, 03:43:22 pm
Welcome to the forum, Moosehunter. Way to make an entrance ;)
Title: Re: Here goes ...
Post by: MSJ on May 04, 2017, 03:57:15 pm
Shit Moose, yes Conphas in TTT I believe. To teach him a lesson. Thanks for the correction.
Title: Re: Here goes ...
Post by: TaoHorror on May 04, 2017, 04:01:09 pm
Well said, MSJ - the confrontation between Mo and K in the end epic battle of TTT was simply delicious - that conversation/debate going on in the middle of the crazed destruction of Shimeh was the long awaited highlight of the series at that point ... and it was slow, Bakker taking his time, leaving nothing out - perfection.

Agree with Madness - he's getting better and better, each book besting the previous ( thwarting, so far, Sick Boy's Unifying Theory of Life ... ). But TTT was particularly special in that it delivered. I was a wreck finishing TTT, laid to waste, dazed but wild with a child's like fun/joy. Almost like I was there ...
Title: Re: Here goes ...
Post by: Madness on May 04, 2017, 04:10:35 pm
I was a wreck finishing TTT, laid to waste, dazed but wild with a child's like fun/joy.

Now that's a book endorsement ;).

EDIT: Oh, shit.

Welcome to the Second Apocalypse, Moosehunter!
Title: Re: Here goes ...
Post by: Moosehunter on May 04, 2017, 09:01:19 pm
Shit Moose, yes Conphas in TTT I believe. To teach him a lesson. Thanks for the correction.

I didn't mean for it to sound like a correction. I actually thought i may have missed something and that's always a concern with this series.

Thanks for the welcomes guys. I have stopped by and lurked many times over the years and find here is the only place to really get in depth discussion (and wild conspiracies) online.

This is actually my favourite series of all time and i wish someone would do a youtube channel like Secrets of the Citadel (ASOIAF) for our friends in Earwa.
I cannot wait for TUC and many of the answers we have been seeking. At the same time i hope we don't get everything. This world works because we have actually learned so little and had to really earn what we have.
Title: Re: Here goes ...
Post by: Madness on May 04, 2017, 09:45:56 pm
This is actually my favourite series of all time and i wish someone would do a youtube channel like Secrets of the Citadel (ASOIAF) for our friends in Earwa.
I cannot wait for TUC and many of the answers we have been seeking. At the same time i hope we don't get everything. This world works because we have actually learned so little and had to really earn what we have.

There are the TSACasts (https://soundcloud.com/tsa-cast), though we haven't released an episode since before TGO's release sadly.
Title: Re: Here goes ...
Post by: MSJ on May 04, 2017, 11:43:28 pm
I didn't mean for it to sound like a correction. I actually thought i may have missed something and that's always a concern with this series.

No worries. And, I couldn't think of it earlier for some reason, but its at Kiyuth where the sorcerers step into the sky for the first time. Only saying this, because I was going to write Kyudea but I knew that was wrong. Cheers, Moosehunter and welcome to SA - The Slog of Slogs
Title: Re: Here goes ...
Post by: TaoHorror on May 05, 2017, 12:52:47 pm
"missed something" ... "always a concern" ... glad someone said it out loud, LOL! Yeah, you could say I've missed a few things with this series - hence, so appreciative of the friendly help I get here figuring things out. Not sure how accurate, but the Prince of Nothing wikia timeline helped me a great deal sorting out a few things - manly how/who/what the origin of the Consult - for some reason, I struggled to pull that out from the novels. Would it be accurate ( or near the mark ) to say the origin of the Consult is another Bakker warning to us readers to not be so quick to damn others? If I understand it correctly, the whole sale slaughter of humanity is to thwart damnation - by aliens, by non-men and even by men/sorcerers. Damnation of sorcerers brought hell to Earwa ( read: Earth ), made real with the help of some curious George's ( sorcerers wanting to explore The Aporos ). Another warning as well ensuring curiosity doesn't morph into monstrosity. What is unknown to me is if Chorae kills Sorcerers of Aporos as it does others ( interesting stratagem to design the weapon which defeats yourself ).
Title: Re: Here goes ...
Post by: H on May 05, 2017, 01:20:31 pm
Would it be accurate ( or near the mark ) to say the origin of the Consult is another Bakker warning to us readers to not be so quick to damn others? If I understand it correctly, the whole sale slaughter of humanity is to thwart damnation - by aliens, by non-men and even by men/sorcerers. Damnation of sorcerers brought hell to Earwa ( read: Earth ), made real with the help of some curious George's ( sorcerers wanting to explore The Aporos ). Another warning as well ensuring curiosity doesn't morph into monstrosity. What is unknown to me is if Chorae kills Sorcerers of Aporos as it does others ( interesting stratagem to design the weapon which defeats yourself ).

I think near the mark (actually a pun, considering your speculation hear the end there) that the Consult is yet another post-human allegory.  I do beleive that both the Inchoroi and Nonmen are also post-human allegories as well, something of a look at some of the dangers of supplanting "natural" boundaries with technological ones.

There is more though, because one of the biggest themes of the whole Second Apocalypse series is the role of Meaning.  Note that I capitalize it there, because it isn't just meaning as in a definition or explanation, but rather the way in which the world, the universe, is structured.  Mimara gives us a look at the disembodied, "objective" meaning through the Eye, but even that raises questions about how and why the Cubit is as it is.  Where does that Meaning come from?

Kellhus takes something of the role of the "hero" here, in the way that he embodies something of a Humanistic view, which appeals to (most) of our modern sensibilities, something of a seeming Meaning for Humans, by Humans.  But Kellhus also embodies a lot of ambiguity and it's often unclear what his ultimate aims really are.  The Consult are pretty clear in wanting a destruction of greater Meaning though, since they want a shut world where consequences can be directly mitigated, where pleasure, power and whim are rewarded, if not at least unpunished.  What Kellhus really wants is not as clear, but TGO gives us a hint that it is in some way denying the 100 their "harvest" of the Damned.

So, how then does Kellhus and the Consult differ?  That's what remains to be seen. I guess the "simplest" dichotomy would be the Consult want to end all Meaning, where Kellhus want to forge new Meaning.
Title: Re: Here goes ...
Post by: BeardFisher-King on May 05, 2017, 03:23:35 pm
Would it be accurate ( or near the mark ) to say the origin of the Consult is another Bakker warning to us readers to not be so quick to damn others? If I understand it correctly, the whole sale slaughter of humanity is to thwart damnation - by aliens, by non-men and even by men/sorcerers. Damnation of sorcerers brought hell to Earwa ( read: Earth ), made real with the help of some curious George's ( sorcerers wanting to explore The Aporos ). Another warning as well ensuring curiosity doesn't morph into monstrosity. What is unknown to me is if Chorae kills Sorcerers of Aporos as it does others ( interesting stratagem to design the weapon which defeats yourself ).

I think near the mark (actually a pun, considering your speculation hear the end there) that the Consult is yet another post-human allegory.  I do beleive that both the Inchoroi and Nonmen are also post-human allegories as well, something of a look at some of the dangers of supplanting "natural" boundaries with technological ones.

There is more though, because one of the biggest themes of the whole Second Apocalypse series is the role of Meaning.  Note that I capitalize it there, because it isn't just meaning as in a definition or explanation, but rather the way in which the world, the universe, is structured.  Mimara gives us a look at the disembodied, "objective" meaning through the Eye, but even that raises questions about how and why the Cubit is as it is.  Where does that Meaning come from?

Kellhus takes something of the role of the "hero" here, in the way that he embodies something of a Humanistic view, which appeals to (most) of our modern sensibilities, something of a seeming Meaning for Humans, by Humans.  But Kellhus also embodies a lot of ambiguity and it's often unclear what his ultimate aims really are.  The Consult are pretty clear in wanting a destruction of greater Meaning though, since they want a shut world where consequences can be directly mitigated, where pleasure, power and whim are rewarded, if not at least unpunished.  What Kellhus really wants is not as clear, but TGO gives us a hint that it is in some way denying the 100 their "harvest" of the Damned.

So, how then does Kellhus and the Consult differ?  That's what remains to be seen. I guess the "simplest" dichotomy would be the Consult want to end all Meaning, where Kellhus want to forge new Meaning.
H, this is hands down the best and most concise summation of the Eärwan predicament. Very well said. Bravo!
Title: Re: Here goes ...
Post by: H on May 05, 2017, 04:02:15 pm
H, this is hands down the best and most concise summation of the Eärwan predicament. Very well said. Bravo!

I'm not so sure it's that great, but I think it may be one of the "merest fractions."
Title: Re: Here goes ...
Post by: TaoHorror on May 05, 2017, 04:28:48 pm
Beard! Stop pawing for H's dick - it's unbecoming and a sin - don't want to see your fat sizzling far below while I'm mauled by hotties up above, brother!
Title: Re: Here goes ...
Post by: H on May 05, 2017, 04:34:05 pm
Beard! Stop pawing for H's dick - it's unbecoming and a sin - don't want to see your fat sizzling far below while I'm mauled by hotties up above, brother!

Not to mention it is already spoken for.  ;)
Title: Re: Here goes ...
Post by: TaoHorror on May 05, 2017, 05:28:30 pm
Would it be accurate ( or near the mark ) to say the origin of the Consult is another Bakker warning to us readers to not be so quick to damn others? If I understand it correctly, the whole sale slaughter of humanity is to thwart damnation - by aliens, by non-men and even by men/sorcerers. Damnation of sorcerers brought hell to Earwa ( read: Earth ), made real with the help of some curious George's ( sorcerers wanting to explore The Aporos ). Another warning as well ensuring curiosity doesn't morph into monstrosity. What is unknown to me is if Chorae kills Sorcerers of Aporos as it does others ( interesting stratagem to design the weapon which defeats yourself ).

I think near the mark (actually a pun, considering your speculation hear the end there) that the Consult is yet another post-human allegory.  I do beleive that both the Inchoroi and Nonmen are also post-human allegories as well, something of a look at some of the dangers of supplanting "natural" boundaries with technological ones.

There is more though, because one of the biggest themes of the whole Second Apocalypse series is the role of Meaning.  Note that I capitalize it there, because it isn't just meaning as in a definition or explanation, but rather the way in which the world, the universe, is structured.  Mimara gives us a look at the disembodied, "objective" meaning through the Eye, but even that raises questions about how and why the Cubit is as it is.  Where does that Meaning come from?

Kellhus takes something of the role of the "hero" here, in the way that he embodies something of a Humanistic view, which appeals to (most) of our modern sensibilities, something of a seeming Meaning for Humans, by Humans.  But Kellhus also embodies a lot of ambiguity and it's often unclear what his ultimate aims really are.  The Consult are pretty clear in wanting a destruction of greater Meaning though, since they want a shut world where consequences can be directly mitigated, where pleasure, power and whim are rewarded, if not at least unpunished.  What Kellhus really wants is not as clear, but TGO gives us a hint that it is in some way denying the 100 their "harvest" of the Damned.

So, how then does Kellhus and the Consult differ?  That's what remains to be seen. I guess the "simplest" dichotomy would be the Consult want to end all Meaning, where Kellhus want to forge new Meaning.

Hmm ... I like it ... Kellhus is out to "destroy" Hell ... or at least eliminate the mechanism for which humans are sent there. I think you may be on to something there, Hannibal ( can I call you, Hannibal? ... take it you don't want me to call you "Tool" given the recent exchange of references ).
Title: Re: Here goes ...
Post by: BeardFisher-King on May 05, 2017, 06:39:33 pm
Beard! Stop pawing for H's dick - it's unbecoming and a sin - don't want to see your fat sizzling far below while I'm mauled by hotties up above, brother!
Damn! Called out by Tao!

I'm sure I'll cook up just fine ... a comic/musician/cabdriver has to be a rare delicacy, don't you think?
Title: Re: Here goes ...
Post by: TaoHorror on May 06, 2017, 01:37:58 am
You expect us to believe you're ACTUALLY a comic musician? The cab driver thing is even suspect, but ok. Upon second thought, I'm sure your music is quite funny. What bullshit instrument you claim to know how to play, the harmonica?

Warmly,
The Horror of the Tao
Title: Re: Here goes ...
Post by: BeardFisher-King on May 06, 2017, 02:02:14 am
You expect us to believe you're ACTUALLY a comic musician? The cab driver thing is even suspect, but ok. Upon second thought, I'm sure your music is quite funny. What bullshit instrument you claim to know how to play, the harmonica?

Warmly,
The Horror of the Tao
The harmonica, as far as I can tell, is fairly difficult to play well, especially in a blues style. Lots of note-bending and over-blowing.

However, I do not play the harmonica.  I used to play piano fairly well, and still have some chops, although I couldn't cut it in a jazz session with any real players. I fool around with an African drum, the djembe, which is fun. And I've been singing in my church choir for 10 years now. I'm actually not good at melding comedy and music; separate endeavours.

As for cabdriving, why would you doubt my claim? Cab drivers need to be somewhat agile and quick-witted, qualities also found in musicians and comics.

Yours, 
The Fisher of Beards
Title: Re: Here goes ...
Post by: TaoHorror on May 06, 2017, 11:35:57 am
As for cabdriving, why would you doubt my claim? Cab drivers need to be somewhat agile and quick-witted, qualities also found in musicians and comics.

Exactly! Why I questioned it! The LACK of those qualities expressed here drives my doubt ...

Hee, hee, you know I'm screwing with you, right? Was going for the whole question anything you claim if there's a shred of decency/competence required. Seems like you can take it, you're the rare comic Sylvendi in my eyes ( compliment intended ). If I could attend Zundanicon 2017, I would first show in disguise, scope out the situation, ensuring it's meant to be a "happy" reunion ( hoping that if it wasn't, all I would have to do is tell you I destroyed Ishual and you would let me go ).

Do you reveal you're "friendly" language you sport here in church? Or are you a skin spy there too?
Title: Re: Here goes ...
Post by: BeardFisher-King on May 06, 2017, 06:11:30 pm
Damn! Another skewer! Right through the heart!

It's all taken in good fun, Tao! And no, there's no TSA badinage in church. Perhaps the very occasional sotto voce remark, to lighten a tense mood. Our choir director is a temperamental sort.
Title: Re: Here goes ...
Post by: TaoHorror on May 06, 2017, 06:38:40 pm
You know something, Beard? If you have it in you ( not a challenge, we all have busy lives - meaning if you have the time/interest ) and Bakker approves, it would be cool to have you ( with your gift for humor/street language ) write a companion piece to the PON series which would provide clarity on both what we're supposed to know and what is supposed to be mystery with these books. It would be fun, funny and provide much needed perspective for us lower minds such as myself.

For starters - biggest problem I had with the books is I made the mistake of trying to pronounce the names of peoples and places myself. It would have been a big help if there was a pronunciation glossary with the books. You could write the names phonetically in the companion. When I read the books again, I'm just going to create pet names for everyone so when I see it, I don't slow down wondering "is that the same person as before, etc". For the first 2 books, I thought Ishroi and the Inchoroi where the same ( both Non-men ) ... didn't realize until the 3rd book the Inchoroi were aliens. I know, I'm dumb, right? But I bet there are others who encountered similar difficulty following the story. That said, it's not a criticism. I love that Bakker doesn't hold the hand of the reader, yielding some beautiful writing. Like when Cleric becomes possessed in Cil-Ajus - another writer would say he was possessed - but Bakker describes as "dons like finery", which was a really cool way of putting it. So the translation the reader makes from description to understanding is wicked cool/fun ( and makes me feel smart when I do it successfully ) ... just struggled with the names and apparently too often failed to grasp what he was getting at. Like the description of Seswatha checking out the Ark completely lost me ... just too hard to follow, maybe the extreme nature of the thing was too hard to understand from mere words.

If you're interested, you could take a stab at "summarizing" the timeline posted online with your funny way of putting things - like ( forgive me, I do not have your talents, this just an example ) "ship with big horns crashes into Earwa, turns earth into lava, cools off, aliens jump out and tell non-men, "fuck you!", no-men reply, "No, not fuck me ... FUCK YOU!", they fight, non-men win, but aliens trick non-men ... ". That was way too general, would need a few dates in there with more detail, etc.

Anyways, think your comedy could translate into comic writing as well is all I'm saying. Appears you're taking a stab it already with your aewarian comic contest. Not trying to drag you into doing something you don't want to do, just thought I would throw it out there. If you're not into it, then maybe Bakker ( if he reads this stuff ) can get off his ass and write it himself ( doesn't have to be funny if he's not gifted with the art, but a "history" - something more robust than the glossary at the end of TTT ).

- TH
Title: Re: Here goes ...
Post by: Redeagl on May 06, 2017, 07:36:54 pm
You know something, Beard? If you have it in you ( not a challenge, we all have busy lives - meaning if you have the time/interest ) and Bakker approves, it would be cool to have you ( with your gift for humor/street language ) write a companion piece to the PON series which would provide clarity on both what we're supposed to know and what is supposed to be mystery with these books. It would be fun, funny and provide much needed perspective for us lower minds such as myself.

For starters - biggest problem I had with the books is I made the mistake of trying to pronounce the names of peoples and places myself. It would have been a big help if there was a pronunciation glossary with the books. You could write the names phonetically in the companion. When I read the books again, I'm just going to create pet names for everyone so when I see it, I don't slow down wondering "is that the same person as before, etc". For the first 2 books, I thought Ishroi and the Inchoroi where the same ( both Non-men ) ... didn't realize until the 3rd book the Inchoroi were aliens. I know, I'm dumb, right? But I bet there are others who encountered similar difficulty following the story. That said, it's not a criticism. I love that Bakker doesn't hold the hand of the reader, yielding some beautiful writing. Like when Cleric becomes possessed in Cil-Ajus - another writer would say he was possessed - but Bakker describes as "dons like finery", which was a really cool way of putting it. So the translation the reader makes from description to understanding is wicked cool/fun ( and makes me feel smart when I do it successfully ) ... just struggled with the names and apparently too often failed to grasp what he was getting at. Like the description of Seswatha checking out the Ark completely lost me ... just too hard to follow, maybe the extreme nature of the thing was too hard to understand from mere words.

If you're interested, you could take a stab at "summarizing" the timeline posted online with your funny way of putting things - like ( forgive me, I do not have your talents, this just an example ) "ship with big horns crashes into Earwa, turns earth into lava, cools off, aliens jump out and tell non-men, "fuck you!", no-men reply, "No, not fuck me ... FUCK YOU!", they fight, non-men win, but aliens trick non-men ... ". That was way too general, would need a few dates in there with more detail, etc.

Anyways, think your comedy could translate into comic writing as well is all I'm saying. Appears you're taking a stab it already with your aewarian comic contest. Not trying to drag you into doing something you don't want to do, just thought I would throw it out there. If you're not into it, then maybe Bakker ( if he reads this stuff ) can get off his ass and write it himself ( doesn't have to be funny if he's not gifted with the art, but a "history" - something more robust than the glossary at the end of TTT ).

- TH
WHAT?! TSA is the funniest series ever. Filled with humour, Bakker is not gifted with the art?!!! Huh? Don't Akka and co literally roll on the floor laughing at Kellhus' jokes in TWP?
Title: Re: Here goes ...
Post by: BeardFisher-King on May 06, 2017, 07:46:14 pm
Quite a compliment, Tao, thanks much. I'm thinking my style is more suited to little vignettes than the grand sweep of TSA. But the general idea of an extended side-by-side comic parody of TSA appeals greatly.

I think the Forum is your best one-stop-shop for all inquiries of an Eärwan nature. And I'm sure you're far from the only reader lost in the tall grass.

Hey, have you ever read "The Devil's Dictionary", by Ambrose Bierce?  That's exactly the kind of companion piece you're  looking for in TSA! It's generally very dry "definitions".... that could be a very enjoyable read!

Perhaps a new thread.....?

Yrs, BFK.

P. S. Check out the BFK post on the "Crazy speculation only" thread.
Title: Re: Here goes ...
Post by: TaoHorror on May 06, 2017, 07:51:59 pm

WHAT?! TSA is the funniest series ever. Filled with humour, Bakker is not gifted with the art?!!! Huh? Don't Akka and co literally roll on the floor laughing at Kellhus' jokes in TWP?
[/quote]

omg, you're right! Most of that stuff went straight over my head and some forgotten. You're reply triggered a real knee slapper of a memory, the time when the Bashrag nailed a man through the groin on that Non-man wall and shrieked in pain, woo hoo, that was hilarious! Ha ha ha ha ha, that was so funny!

Was referring to stand up comedy style prose - Bakker may well be awesome with that as well, but he did not write PON in that style. Not saying no humor in it, but confess don't recollect any ...
Title: Re: Here goes ...
Post by: MSJ on May 06, 2017, 10:06:03 pm
So, not to derail a thread that's been derailed a couple times, lol. THIS TAOHORROR'S THREAD!!!!! But, to earlier post up thread on H's "culmination theory" on The TT, I don't think Moe ever intended to take over the holy war and kill off Kellhus. I mean think on it. The Inrithi would win, that's the plan, easiest way to Unite the Three-Seas. Also, how could Moe and Powerful Cish then take control of an Inrithi lead Holy War. Yes, the TT was meant to outlive the incubator, but doesn't mean Moe didn't have a long plan. I think it would be great to see Moe in TUC in some capacity, preferably, methinks it will be on the side of the Consult. I think he was already seated by their meeting and he is a lying liar that lies. It would be a great ling play.

So, started reread, just witnessed the horror of Kiyuth with the sorcerers, what struck me more was Cnaüir's  will to live. Its what I love about him, a man that always picks his self back up. Inrau, what did he find in the Shriah's apartments? Clearly something related to the SS, as it had him questioning going back to the Mandate. Also, Onkis, she is way more important in the pantheon of the 100 then most think. More thoughts later.
Title: Re: Here goes ...
Post by: TaoHorror on May 07, 2017, 02:04:33 am

So, started reread, just witnessed the horror of Kiyuth with the sorcerers, what struck me more was Cnaüir's  will to live. Its what I love about him, a man that always picks his self back up. Inrau, what did he find in the Shriah's apartments? Clearly something related to the SS, as it had him questioning going back to the Mandate. Also, Onkis, she is way more important in the pantheon of the 100 then most think. More thoughts later.

Well, there was that one time when Cniur grabs Kellhus' sword, brings it to his own neck and begs him to kill him ...
Title: Re: Here goes ...
Post by: MSJ on May 07, 2017, 05:22:13 am

So, started reread, just witnessed the horror of Kiyuth with the sorcerers, what struck me more was Cnaüir's  will to live. Its what I love about him, a man that always picks his self back up. Inrau, what did he find in the Shriah's apartments? Clearly something related to the SS, as it had him questioning going back to the Mandate. Also, Onkis, she is way more important in the pantheon of the 100 then most think. More thoughts later.

Well, there was that one time when Cniur grabs Kellhus' sword, brings it to his own neck and begs him to kill him ...

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Here goes ...
Post by: TaoHorror on May 07, 2017, 12:12:58 pm
Not contesting your overall point, just pointing out it wasn't always so as he went mad to the near point of suicide by K in The Carathay. But maybe that was a manipulation, sensing K was coming for him with his best defense surrendering so nakedly.
Title: Re: Here goes ...
Post by: MSJ on May 07, 2017, 08:21:18 pm
Not contesting your overall point, just pointing out it wasn't always so as he went mad to the near point of suicide by K in The Carathay. But maybe that was a manipulation, sensing K was coming for him with his best defense surrendering so nakedly.

Right, he's been at the edge many times. But, he has always come through and kept fighting. I do like the idea that upon seeing Proyas he'll switch sides from the Consult.
Title: Re: Here goes ...
Post by: H on May 08, 2017, 11:30:53 am
So, not to derail a thread that's been derailed a couple times, lol. THIS TAOHORROR'S THREAD!!!!! But, to earlier post up thread on H's "culmination theory" on The TT, I don't think Moe ever intended to take over the holy war and kill off Kellhus. I mean think on it. The Inrithi would win, that's the plan, easiest way to Unite the Three-Seas. Also, how could Moe and Powerful Cish then take control of an Inrithi lead Holy War. Yes, the TT was meant to outlive the incubator, but doesn't mean Moe didn't have a long plan. I think it would be great to see Moe in TUC in some capacity, preferably, methinks it will be on the side of the Consult. I think he was already seated by their meeting and he is a lying liar that lies. It would be a great ling play.

Well, I do think that Moe had a long-term plan, even if that plan was never going to work.  As I said, Moe was just wrong on too many things to survive the high-stakes game he was playing at.  Even though he was smart and powerful enough to accomplish what he did, there was going to be a limit.  That limit just happened to be Kellhus and Kyudea.
Title: Re: Here goes ...
Post by: MSJ on May 08, 2017, 06:07:32 pm
Well, I do think that Moe had a long-term plan, even if that plan was never going to work.  As I said, Moe was just wrong on too many things to survive the high-stakes game he was playing at.  Even though he was smart and powerful enough to accomplish what he did, there was going to be a limit.  That limit just happened to be Kellhus and Kyudea.

Ol' Moe, dead as a door nail, eh?
Title: Re: Here goes ...
Post by: H on May 09, 2017, 10:13:17 am
Ol' Moe, dead as a door nail, eh?

That would be my guess.  Although, that doesn't preclude him from having an effect on the story still.  Even if I think that is relatively improbable, it is possible.
Title: Re: Here goes ...
Post by: BeardFisher-King on May 09, 2017, 12:42:34 pm

Ol' Moe, dead as a door nail, eh?
I've never understood how the "Moënghus lives!" theories get past the clear evidence of his death-by-Chorae. But as a way to while away the early summer days, I'll bite: What's the case for a living Moënghus?
Title: Re: Here goes ...
Post by: MSJ on May 09, 2017, 12:48:04 pm

Ol' Moe, dead as a door nail, eh?
I've never understood how the "Moënghus lives!" theories get past the clear evidence of his death-by-Chorae. But as a way to while away the early summer days, I'll bite: What's the case for a living Moënghus?

Not living, oh no! In the Outside running the Thousandfold Thought. Remember, in every instance, Moe and Kellhus are described as identical. He just got his eyes back and grew some hair, another long play. Seriously, I'm pulling shit out of nowhere, BK.
Title: Re: Here goes ...
Post by: Redeagl on May 09, 2017, 12:55:41 pm

Ol' Moe, dead as a door nail, eh?
I've never understood how the "Moënghus lives!" theories get past the clear evidence of his death-by-Chorae. But as a way to while away the early summer days, I'll bite: What's the case for a living Moënghus?

Not living, oh no! In the Outside running the Thousandfold Thought. Remember, in every instance, Moe and Kellhus are described as identical. He just got his eyes back and grew some hair, another long play. Seriously, I'm pulling shit out of nowhere, BK.
I really like the ol' Moe crackpots. Especially yours, MSJ. But I have gave up, they never ever happen. Remember the Meppa = Cnaiür + Möenghus thing? Good times.
Title: Re: Here goes ...
Post by: H on May 09, 2017, 01:37:31 pm
I really like the ol' Moe crackpots. Especially yours, MSJ. But I have gave up, they never ever happen. Remember the Meppa = Cnaiür + Möenghus thing? Good times.

Just thought exercises really.  I never rated any as particularly plausible, but they do create interesting ways to think about certain elements even if they are rather far-fetched, mostly.
Title: Re: Here goes ...
Post by: TaoHorror on May 09, 2017, 05:03:28 pm
Moe will lead "the zombie apocalypse" and destroy all, both Consult and Humanity, yielding the 3rd spin off series of The Walking Dead. Just a thought exercise ...
Title: Re: Here goes ...
Post by: Wilshire on July 24, 2017, 03:11:31 pm

Ol' Moe, dead as a door nail, eh?
I've never understood how the "Moënghus lives!" theories get past the clear evidence of his death-by-Chorae. But as a way to while away the early summer days, I'll bite: What's the case for a living Moënghus?

No joke, the death-by-chorae is explained as not-death due to the color Bakker used in the description of this scene.

This was (wrongly) guessed to be unique to only Moenghus, then later once quotes disproving that were quoted many times the theorizers said 'fine, all Cishaurim do it', then laterer (more quotes) 'ok it happens to everyone' but at this point they were fully committed to Moe being alive so it was mostly ignored.

Most other pieces of said Meta-Moenghus theories are either contradicted by pretty direct quotes from the book (room for speculation in some though), or rely on speculated mechanics which are so outlandish as to be entire un-provable and equally un-disprovable. Typically these are related to infallible super-powerful and entirely invisible meta-psuke magics which can be used to explain (literally) how Moe was behind every single happening in the entire series whilst remaining totally unseen. This conveniently also allows any argument to be dismissed outright (*handwaive* but meta-psuke can do that), thus rendering it an unassailable hypothesis.


But do please keep in mind we needed something to talk about for the 5+ years we waited for TGO and this single avenue of speculation provided many, many hours of discussion.
Title: Re: Here goes ...
Post by: MSJ on July 24, 2017, 05:49:36 pm
Wilshire, he is still not dead somewhere his soul resides in the Outside, could be whistling Dixie in one of the Gods ear for christ sake, you know. No one here is reeady to give up on Moe.
Title: Re: Here goes ...
Post by: Wilshire on July 24, 2017, 06:01:30 pm
Wilshire, he is still not dead somewhere his soul resides in the Outside, could be whistling Dixie in one of the Gods ear for christ sake, you know. No one here is reeady to give up on Moe.
This twist has some recent justification in text and I find it more acceptable :)