The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The Unholy Consult => Topic started by: profgrape on May 02, 2017, 10:20:52 pm

Title: Crazy speculation only
Post by: profgrape on May 02, 2017, 10:20:52 pm
Got a crazy idea about what's going to happen in TUC?  Share it here!

For my part:

1.  Moenghus will not re-appear onscreen.  But his presence will be felt -- the longest of long-plays.

2.  The second chapter will involve Proyas converting the non-Scalded to cannibalism.  This will involve eating the Scalded.
 Rather than weep and struggle with the decision, he'll be as passionless as an Anasurimbor.  Serwa and Sorweel will arrive via chariot at the end of the chapter.

3. Kellhus will return to the Ordeal with Esme AND Meppa.
Title: Re: Crazy speculation only
Post by: MG on May 02, 2017, 10:39:42 pm
Got a crazy idea about what's going to happen in TUC?  Share it here!

For my part:

1.  Moenghus will not re-appear onscreen.  But his presence will be felt -- the longest of long-plays.

2.  The second chapter will involve Proyas converting the non-Scalded to cannibalism.  This will involve eating the Scalded.
 Rather than weep and struggle with the decision, he'll be as passionless as an Anasurimbor.  Serwa and Sorweel will arrive via chariot at the end of the chapter.

3. Kellhus will return to the Ordeal with Esme AND Meppa.

NOT BAD PG!
Title: Re: Crazy speculation only
Post by: Gorgorotterath on May 03, 2017, 10:23:14 am
Any speculation about Kelmomas? I hope he is dead and gone, but I guess he is actually alive and well...at least as well as a crazy fucker like him can be.
Thinking on it, Kelmomas would be the right guy to convert the non-Scalded to cannibalism...he's already a pro in the field

"No need to cook the meat, folks!!"
Title: Re: Crazy speculation only
Post by: Monkhound on May 03, 2017, 03:07:28 pm

"No need to cook the meat, folks!!"

If they're scalded, they've been cooked, right?  ;D
Title: Re: Crazy speculation only
Post by: Redeagl on May 03, 2017, 03:21:16 pm
The battle of Golgotterath rage, Kellhus gets a cup of tea and have a conversation with the Consult  and so he avoids the battle because he is a pussy.The No-God returns at the end, The whole Ordeal is destroyed except for Kellhus who will be Judged as more Damned than Cnaiür by Mimara, Kellhus will kill Akka, something happens to Mim, Cnaiür kills Kellhus, Kellhus transcends into.... Something.
Title: Re: Crazy speculation only
Post by: profgrape on May 03, 2017, 08:03:28 pm
Got a crazy idea about what's going to happen in TUC?  Share it here!

For my part:

1.  Moenghus will not re-appear onscreen.  But his presence will be felt -- the longest of long-plays.

2.  The second chapter will involve Proyas converting the non-Scalded to cannibalism.  This will involve eating the Scalded.
 Rather than weep and struggle with the decision, he'll be as passionless as an Anasurimbor.  Serwa and Sorweel will arrive via chariot at the end of the chapter.

3. Kellhus will return to the Ordeal with Esme AND Meppa.

Amendment:

3. Kellhus will return to the Ordeal with Kelmomas (to keep him in hand) and Meppa (because Water).  Esme will stay behind to look after TTS.

Additions:

4. Akka and Mimara will cross the Neleost at The Leash.  The Boy will follow.

5. It will be Kellhus who reveals to Akka how his Dreams have deceived him. 

6. Cnaiur and the Scylvendi will arrive at the siege of Golgotterath, attacking both TGO and the Consult indiscriminately.  I suspect the People of War may be the last ones standing at the end of the book.

7. The No-God won't appear in present tense but will be revealed in a Dream.
Title: Re: Crazy speculation only
Post by: Hiro on May 03, 2017, 09:57:55 pm
Iyokus will engage in a Daimotic battle...
Title: Re: Crazy speculation only
Post by: H on May 04, 2017, 01:29:18 pm
Kellhus will encounter himself, from the "future," the source of the Voice.
Title: Re: Crazy speculation only
Post by: MSJ on May 04, 2017, 01:42:57 pm
Kellhus didn't kill Meppa because he is his brother....
Title: Re: Crazy speculation only
Post by: Wilshire on May 04, 2017, 01:57:57 pm
Kellhus didn't kill Meppa because he is his brother....
One of my favorite pet theories. I hope this is the case so very much.
Title: Re: Crazy speculation only
Post by: MSJ on May 04, 2017, 02:08:44 pm
Kellhus didn't kill Meppa because he is his brother....
One of my favorite pet theories. I hope this is the case so very much.

And see, here I thought it was original. This is what Bakker is trying to teach us isn't it? I've just regurgitated something I've heard before and forgot.
Title: Re: Crazy speculation only
Post by: Redeagl on May 04, 2017, 06:19:53 pm
Kellhus didn't kill Meppa because he is his brother....
I like this theory!
Title: Re: Crazy speculation only
Post by: Hirtius/Pansa on May 04, 2017, 06:53:06 pm
I've been thinking about potential LOTR analogues in the upcoming climactic battle. More than any surprise reinforcements ala Rohirrim at Helm's Deep or Minas Tirith, I think it is the surprise reversal of potential reinforcements. In this capacity I refer to the Corsairs of Umbar arriving at Harlond, the Orcs believing that they have fresh allies and troops, but surprise!—it's Aragorn and co. leading the Gondorian levies from Pelargir, Lebennin and Anfalas etc. etc.

It is the reversal that excites me. I anticipate a similar event when Ishterebinth arrives at Golgotterath. The Consult will wrongly believe that the forces of the Injoy-Niyas are still allies. I imagine that Mekeritrig will see the Quya chariots on the horizon and say something like: "At last, Nin'Ciljiras has roused himself. We will finally eradicate these pesky humans." But as they get closer there will be some visual signifier that they are allied with Humanity and not the Consult. I want it to be the sigil of Nil'giccas or whatever, but as far as we know no such thing exists, so let's say it's the Copper Tree of Siol, the sigil of Cu'jara-Cinmoi, the first great enemy of the Inchoroi.  Mekeritrig's elation will slip into horror as he realizes what's actually happening: "The Exalted Stronghold stands with the Ordeal!" He will cry out.

It'll be better written than that, but it's the surprise reversal of known reinforcements which I anticipate.

Also some dragons. And I hope the Consult have legions of Ursranc to fight on more equal footing with the human armies.

Title: Re: Crazy speculation only
Post by: Wilshire on May 04, 2017, 07:26:18 pm
Kellhus didn't kill Meppa because he is his brother....
One of my favorite pet theories. I hope this is the case so very much.

And see, here I thought it was original. This is what Bakker is trying to teach us isn't it? I've just regurgitated something I've heard before and forgot.
Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
This: http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=813.0
And a bit farther down: http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=813.msg5253#msg5253
Title: Re: Crazy speculation only
Post by: MSJ on May 04, 2017, 07:43:43 pm
Kellhus didn't kill Meppa because he is his brother....
One of my favorite pet theories. I hope this is the case so very much.

And see, here I thought it was original. This is what Bakker is trying to teach us isn't it? I've just regurgitated something I've heard before and forgot.
Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
This: http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=813.0
And a bit farther down: http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=813.msg5253#msg5253

Exactly. I'm sure at some point I've read that thread. But, I would enjoy it being the case just the same.
Title: Re: Crazy speculation only
Post by: profgrape on May 04, 2017, 07:57:12 pm
I've been thinking about potential LOTR analogues in the upcoming climactic battle. More than any surprise reinforcements ala Rohirrim at Helm's Deep or Minas Tirith, I think it is the surprise reversal of potential reinforcements. In this capacity I refer to the Corsairs of Umbar arriving at Harlond, the Orcs believing that they have fresh allies and troops, but surprise!—it's Aragorn and co. leading the Gondorian levies from Pelargir, Lebennin and Anfalas etc. etc.

It is the reversal that excites me. I anticipate a similar event when Ishterebinth arrives at Golgotterath. The Consult will wrongly believe that the forces of the Injoy-Niyas are still allies. I imagine that Mekeritrig will see the Quya chariots on the horizon and say something like: "At last, Nin'Ciljiras has roused himself. We will finally eradicate these pesky humans." But as they get closer there will be some visual signifier that they are allied with Humanity and not the Consult. I want it to be the sigil of Nil'giccas or whatever, but as far as we know no such thing exists, so let's say it's the Copper Tree of Siol, the sigil of Cu'jara-Cinmoi, the first great enemy of the Inchoroi.  Mekeritrig's elation will slip into horror as he realizes what's actually happening: "The Exalted Stronghold stands with the Ordeal!" He will cry out.

Love this idea!!!  We know from the Overlook synopsis that Serwa and Sorweel rejoin the Ordeal at some point; maybe it's in the context of the Ish Nonmen pulling a fast one on the Consult!
Title: Re: Crazy speculation only
Post by: Killjoy on May 05, 2017, 02:19:11 am
The Consult can't actually resurrect the No-God.

The Second Apocalypse will involve the real Eschaton (aka The Apocalypse Principle), of which the original No-God was a bootleg, immanentized copy (the Consult could have made an immanent Yatwer etc. instead).

And who is the real Apocalypse Principle? Well, behold the end of the world...

Also Cnaiur = Nau-Cayuti in some sense.
Title: Re: Crazy speculation only
Post by: Gorgorotterath on May 05, 2017, 10:12:05 am
Nau Cnaiürti.
Anyway Cnaiür will unavoidably side with Proyas against the Consult, because of their kind of father-son relationship (which I had forgotten completely, until I reread the whole first trilogy this year). That's why Kellhus left Proyas behind while Saubon was a liability and was sacrificed.
Title: Re: Crazy speculation only
Post by: BeardFisher-King on May 05, 2017, 12:56:13 pm
Well, if you're looking for crazy speculation, Beardfisher King is happy to oblige!

So, the Great Ordeal finally reaches Golgotterath, right? And what do they find? Well, being Eärwan, they have no fucking idea what they're looking at. But, since the Inchoroi happen to be massively tweaked and generally fucked-up post-humans, Golgotterath happens to be the most awesome and excellent concert venue imaginable. The two horns of the Ark are rigged with mind-blowing PA speakers and the Inverse Fire is the ultimate bad-ass Jumbotron, which is showing a bewildering video promoting "No-God!", which turns out to be a cross between Slipknot, Metallica, King Crimson, Muse and Dream Theater. Just the heaviest, most intense musical experience possible. No wonder the Nonmen were weeping while watching the Inverse Fire! The Tekne rocks!

(.... to be continued)
Title: Re: Crazy speculation only
Post by: Walter on May 05, 2017, 08:08:23 pm
Feels like we are going to get a 'Star Wars' kind of ending, with a big army battle (outside Golglutterath), while much more personal stuff goes down on the inside.

Random hunch: Kellhus is going to experience the Inverse Fire that the Consult use to initiate them with the experience of damnation.
Title: Re: Crazy speculation only
Post by: Hirtius/Pansa on May 05, 2017, 08:15:54 pm
Feels like we are going to get a 'Star Wars' kind of ending, with a big army battle (outside Golglutterath), while much more personal stuff goes down on the inside.

Random hunch: Kellhus is going to experience the Inverse Fire that the Consult use to initiate them with the experience of damnation.

That could just as easily describe the climax of TTT: the only things that actually matter are Kel confronting Moe, Cnaiur confronting Moe, Achamian and Esmenet, everything else is just action eye-candy.
Title: Re: Crazy speculation only
Post by: Hiro on May 06, 2017, 05:14:04 pm
Not so crazy, perhaps:

Achamian and Kellhus enter the Ark, echoing the dreams...echoing Frodo and Sam?
Title: Re: Crazy speculation only
Post by: Redeagl on May 06, 2017, 06:31:20 pm
Not so crazy, perhaps:

Achamian and Kellhus enter the Ark, echoing the dreams...echoing Frodo and Sam?
I really like this one. Also, Golgotterath and the Black Gate.
Title: Re: Crazy speculation only
Post by: Redeagl on May 07, 2017, 12:14:31 pm
Not so crazy, perhaps:

Achamian and Kellhus enter the Ark, echoing the dreams...echoing Frodo and Sam?
Since we know that the timing of the Dreams is important, the penultimate Dream that Akka has before he leaves Kellhus is Seswatha and Nau-Cayuti entering Golgotterath...
Title: Re: Crazy speculation only
Post by: Simas Polchias on May 07, 2017, 04:04:30 pm
My main bet is on a dung ages (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheDungAges)-esque nods to Tolkien's LotR.

1) The Great Ordeal is an army of distraction, a device to turn someone's eyes away from a much more lesser group. Aragorn / Kellhus on the Morannon field / Black Furnace plain.
2) That lesser group carries the macguffin (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MacGuffin). Something unique and powerful, a crucial part of big bad (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BigBad) power. One Ring / Inverse Fire. Akka & Mimara, Serwa & Sorweel / Sam & Frodo.
3) Heron spear is Narsil Anduril and would be recharged / reforged. Red herring (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RedHerring) though. Sauron / No God doesn't walk the earth, no Fingolfin-like action scenes. Weapon is mostly used to convince Eomer / remind Mekeretrig about Telcontarity / Anasurimbority of the wielder.
4) Dunno if there is a place for Theoden and Denethor after Sakarpus / Gondor. Maybe some consult generals for Gandalf / Akka to redeem or to drive to suicide?
5) Skin-spies are nazguls, keepers of the Inverse Flame / One Ring. Always near, constantly chasing, never succeeded.
6) The One Ring / Inverse Fire is lost by owner, found by stranger, carried by hero. First one is lost geographically, while second one is lost as a concept, inchoroi actually forgot a technology. So, Judging Eye, rooted Seswatha's memories, nonmen imprisoned in a helm are kinda shards, reflections and thousandfold-requoted quotes about blueprints of Inverse Fire or maybe No God. This way we'll have few Frodos and Sams, yay! Even Kellhus would be part-time Frodo, while he is "throwing" swayali and mandati against consult ranks to insure the total eradication of distributed, "p2p" Seswatha.

Ok. That's crazy enough. I'll save the 7th paragraph for the future.
Title: Re: Crazy speculation only
Post by: Madness on May 07, 2017, 05:35:29 pm
I really appreciate your linking TVTropes :).
Title: Re: Crazy speculation only
Post by: Simas Polchias on May 08, 2017, 12:36:16 pm
Thank you. It's a sneaky plot to supply fellow second-apocalypsians with a funny and useful timekiller.
Title: Re: Crazy speculation only
Post by: Madness on May 08, 2017, 12:45:28 pm
I myself have lost a great many watches down the rabbit-hole that is TVTropes. No help required ;).
Title: Re: Crazy speculation only
Post by: profgrape on May 09, 2017, 02:19:29 pm
The book will nicely resolve the Humanity vs Consult arc.  And it will hint at how to end the damnation system.  The execution of the means to end damnation, however, will be left to TSTSNBN.
Title: Re: Crazy speculation only
Post by: H on May 09, 2017, 02:23:58 pm
The book will nicely resolve the Humanity vs Consult arc.  And it will hint at how to end the damnation system.  The execution of the means to end damnation, however, will be left to TSTSNBN.

Or we find out what the Voice is, i.e. it's actually Kellhus, and we are left to wonder how is is going to prosecute the war on the gods we know he is really after.

He just can't do it the the Consult skulking around/messing with his shit.
Title: Re: Crazy speculation only
Post by: profgrape on May 09, 2017, 06:09:30 pm
First 8 words are a possible spoiler (minor to me, but really depends on your tolerance) from Wert's updates to the PON Wiki:

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Crazy speculation only
Post by: Hirtius/Pansa on May 09, 2017, 06:15:04 pm
Is that in the wiki or is that your speculation? lol
Title: Re: Crazy speculation only
Post by: profgrape on May 09, 2017, 06:21:27 pm
The first 8 words are from the Wiki.  I modified the post to clarify that.
Title: Re: Crazy speculation only
Post by: H on May 10, 2017, 11:14:21 am
In the grand scheme of things, my predictions:

The Ordeal is a distraction, they never breach the Ark.
Kellhus ventures into Golgotterath itself, stumbles across some atrocities along his way to the Golden Room.
He is met by some combination of Aurax, Aurang, Shae et. al.
They show him the Inverse Fire and he either fakes it being fakes it being effective on him or just shocks them by being unmoved.
He kills them all, or consigns them to some similar fate.

Not sure where the No-God comes in, unless, perhaps, afterward Kellhus cavorts the process and so resurrects the No-God or something like that.  Then, of course, Mimara will gaze on Kellhus and/or the No-God and answer it's question.  "What do you see?" perhaps, "The End."
Title: Re: Crazy speculation only
Post by: profgrape on May 18, 2017, 09:34:50 pm
There are no Nonmen left by the end of the book. 

And the dead/alive game:

Kellhus - Dead(-ish)
Mimara - Alive(-ish)
Akka - Dead
Sorweel - Alive
Proyas - Alive
Kayutas - Dead
Serwe - Alive
Moenghus the Younger - Dead
Kelmomas - Alive
Esmenet - Dead
Cnaiur - Dead (and loving it)
Title: Re: Crazy speculation only
Post by: Walking-Star on May 18, 2017, 10:09:56 pm
Serwa develops a crush on Sorweel but he won't reciprocate it because the Holy Deep and Immiriccas drove him crazy. So while she keeps trying to make a pass at him he's sobbing and muttering in Ihrimsu about Immiriccas' Erratic lover in the shadows. But in battle he goes completely batshit and carves through sranc Sibawul-style, screaming about how they are Vile imitations of Cunuroi perfection and raving about how Cujura Cinmoi was a fool for dooming his race. Sorweel then becomes new-Cnaiur after Serwa uses a Cant of Compulsion to try and sleep with him. And Moe-2 develops a phobia of Sorweel.
Title: Re: Crazy speculation only
Post by: Redeagl on May 18, 2017, 11:48:00 pm
Moe Younger : Dead
Akka: Alive
Mimara: Alive
Esmenet: Could go both ways for me
Proyas: Dead
Sorweel: Dead
Kayutas: Dead
Serwa: Alive
Kelmomas: Dead
Cnaiür: Alive
Kellhus: Dead
Meppa: Alive
Shae, Aurang and co: Alive
Title: Re: Crazy speculation only
Post by: Tyrin on May 19, 2017, 12:29:43 am
Moe Younger : Dead
Akka: Alive
Mimara: Alive
Esmenet: Could go both ways for me
Proyas: Dead
Sorweel: Dead
Kayutas: Dead
Serwa: Alive
Kelmomas: Dead
Cnaiür: Alive
Kellhus: Dead
Meppa: Alive
Shae, Aurang and co: Alive

Change Esmenet's status to "dead" and this would be the happiest ending possible to me.
Title: Re: Crazy speculation only
Post by: geoffrobro on May 19, 2017, 04:34:30 am
Serwa develops a crush on Sorweel but he won't reciprocate it because the Holy Deep and Immiriccas drove him crazy. So while she keeps trying to make a pass at him he's sobbing and muttering in Ihrimsu about Immiriccas' Erratic lover in the shadows. But in battle he goes completely batshit and carves through sranc Sibawul-style, screaming about how they are Vile imitations of Cunuroi perfection and raving about how Cujura Cinmoi was a fool for dooming his race. Sorweel then becomes new-Cnaiur after Serwa uses a Cant of Compulsion to try and sleep with him. And Moe-2 develops a phobia of Sorweel.
I'm loving your idea. The dynamics of the niom have changed. Serwe now loves, Sorweels is brave and Moe jr is weak.
Title: Re: Crazy speculation only
Post by: Madness on May 19, 2017, 03:21:17 pm
...

Welcome to the Second Apocalypse, Walking-Star :).
Title: Re: Crazy speculation only
Post by: Gorgorotterath on May 19, 2017, 03:29:54 pm
Serwa develops a crush on Sorweel but he won't reciprocate it because the Holy Deep and Immiriccas drove him crazy. So while she keeps trying to make a pass at him he's sobbing and muttering in Ihrimsu about Immiriccas' Erratic lover in the shadows. But in battle he goes completely batshit and carves through sranc Sibawul-style, screaming about how they are Vile imitations of Cunuroi perfection and raving about how Cujura Cinmoi was a fool for dooming his race. Sorweel then becomes new-Cnaiur after Serwa uses a Cant of Compulsion to try and sleep with him. And Moe-2 develops a phobia of Sorweel.
If Bakker hasn't written the story this way, he must surely go for a thorough editing!