“The Dûnyain have hidden from the world for two millennia, and they would remain hidden, if they could, for all eternity. Yet thirty-one years ago, while I was still but a child, we were discovered by a band of Sranc. The Sranc were easily destroyed, but as a precaution, my father was sent into the wilderness to ascertain the extent of our exposure. When he returned some months later, it was decided that he must be exiled. He’d been contaminated, had become a threat to our mission. Three decades passed, and it was assumed he’d perished.”
Isolation from external causes is the key to the original Dunyain mission. Allowing Moenghus back in would have been tantamount to allowing every he had experienced back in.
I never doubted this. However, I have, at times, doubted the wisdom of allowing a Dunyain to exist in the wild, from their perspective.
It's hard to imagine them not considering the risks in allowing someone with knowledge of Ishual's location to simply walk out. Why didn't they force him into the Thousand-Thousand Halls, like the Pragma did when he polluted them in turn? I've come up with some conspiracy theories on this, because it seems somewhat unfathomable that they didn't consider the risk in allowing him to leave.
They had no difficulty killing themselves afterward, and he was their better, so why assume he would have difficulty?
Just really a nitpick here, but Moe didn't really choose the Psukhe. He had no other choice, really. When he had to scar his arms to cross the Steppe, he ended any chance of going to the Three-Seas. Kian was his only choice, tbh.
Apologies for going into left field - but this could be an opportunity for humor in the story - when he left, he was chased out of the North by some freak with faces on his cloak ... oh, never mind. At least I don't feel bad now that I couldn't "remember" why Moe left in the first place.
I agree, Bakker doesn't want to divulge. Either he's making a decision to not detail everything ( where does it stop if he answers your question if the reason Moe left is somewhat ( or completely ) unimportant ) or it's part of the TUC and feels it's a spoiler.
As I said on the other forum I'm inclined to think that moe just stood up from the probability trance and walked out of Ishual without a word or indication of motivation.
Why ? "When the thought first came to me I was quite unprepared"
I think moe started experiencing the thought in Ishual and in response to its proddings he just left.
The total unpredictability of his action paralyzed the dunyain as they were completely unable to parse it and thus unable to react to try and stop him until it was too late and he was beyond their reach (they'd be terrified and or paralyzed once leaving Ishual anyway, so they would have a very short window to stop him before being overcome by experiencing a non sterile environment.
But I truly love this theory, that moe experienced domination and like kellhus he became addicted to domination
Still a bullshit story kellhus is lying or repeating a lie.
A culture that goes underground and suicides contamination has no concept of exile
The thousand fold thought
The thousand fold thought
Don't think he had the information sequestered in Ishual to been able to "come up" with the TTT, but maybe ...
Anyway, if you go with H's theory that the Thought stands Outside of time, then really he need to know nothing about this. Whoever is in the vision (H thinks Kellhus and that's very reasonable, I do hold out hope that Moe still controls the Thought, purely a fancy of mine), is the one controlling the Thought sending message about what comes after determines what comes before. "He was quite unprepared for th thought when it came to him". This means he didn't plan the thought, the thought was giving to him precisely as Kellhus receives his vision. It would certainly be enough for him to just get up and walk out of Ishual. The thought seems to be outside the influence of men, Dunyain or otherwise. I actually love the idea of being how Moe decided to leave Ishual.
Moenghus came up with The Thousandfold Thought probably the same day he captured a Skin Spy, this is what he told Kellhus when they met. He realized quite early he would not be able fullfill the task, only pave the way.
As I said on the other forum I'm inclined to think that moe just stood up from the probability trance and walked out of Ishual without a word or indication of motivation.
Why ? "When the thought first came to me I was quite unprepared"
I think moe started experiencing the thought in Ishual and in response to its proddings he just left.
The total unpredictability of his action paralyzed the dunyain as they were completely unable to parse it and thus unable to react to try and stop him until it was too late and he was beyond their reach (they'd be terrified and or paralyzed once leaving Ishual anyway, so they would have a very short window to stop him before being overcome by experiencing a non sterile environment.
But I truly love this theory, that moe experienced domination and like kellhus he became addicted to domination
I tend to agree with the 'there is less here than we think' school of thought. Like, I think we can take the books at face value.
Moe was sent out after the Sranc contamination, told to deal with stuff, then kill himself.
He ends up with the Ceshaurim, story continues as we know from there.
They had no difficulty killing themselves afterward, and he was their better, so why assume he would have difficulty?
A direct confrontation might lead to injury or death of one or more Dunyain. Throwing rocks or arrows at him form the wall wouldn't likely have much effect. Doesn't seem too unreasonable that risking the life of any more Dunyain was outweighed by an option that didn't risk any.
Clearly, they made an error. I'm not suggesting they were right. Whatever they thought would stop him from corrupting them further clearly didn't. The fallibility of Dunyain decision making is central to the story, unlike the mysterious inner workings of their secret cult, making this kind of explanation far more satisfying to me.
Seemingly small lapses in judgement tend to lead to catastrophic failures for the Dunyain. But, that makes sense, when you think you know and account for all options, you are going to play the game extremely aggressively with infinitesimal margins.
Sending out Moe seemed like a sure bet - leads to extermination of their entire race/sect/mission. "Oops".
Seemingly small lapses in judgement tend to lead to catastrophic failures for the Dunyain. But, that makes sense, when you think you know and account for all options, you are going to play the game extremely aggressively with infinitesimal margins.
Sending out Moe seemed like a sure bet - leads to extermination of their entire race/sect/mission. "Oops".
Very much a case of "unknown unknowns."
Then again, Moe himself falls into the same trap in the end though, supposing that the world was closed despite evidence that it was not.
Inrilatus prompting the meeting and getting killed by Mithanet.
Huh, a Dunyain walking into heavily conditioned ground assured of victory. Lol, what does TUC have in store for us.Inrilatus prompting the meeting and getting killed by Mithanet.
Even Maithanet walking into that room, when he should have known full well he was on heavily conditioned ground.
Huh, a Dunyain walking into heavily conditioned ground assured of victory. Lol, what does TUC have in store for us.Inrilatus prompting the meeting and getting killed by Mithanet.
Even Maithanet walking into that room, when he should have known full well he was on heavily conditioned ground.
Seemingly small lapses in judgement tend to lead to catastrophic failures for the Dunyain. But, that makes sense, when you think you know and account for all options, you are going to play the game extremely aggressively with infinitesimal margins.
Sending out Moe seemed like a sure bet - leads to extermination of their entire race/sect/mission. "Oops".
Very much a case of "unknown unknowns."
Then again, Moe himself falls into the same trap in the end though, supposing that the world was closed despite evidence that it was not.
Exactly my point. We have a lot of instances of Dunyain making mistakes that lead to catastrophic results. Moe being exiled, blinding himself, calling for Kellhus. Kellhus and his ridiculous idiocy early on in the woods. Inrilatus prompting the meeting and getting killed by Mithanet. The list goes on, and usually ends in death swirling down:P .
It hasn't been stated but in the prologue of TPN do the Dunyain who first find ishual not mention sranc? Should the Dunyain during Moe's time not be aware of that the sranc at least exist?They knew about sranc, certainly. They were allegedly fleeing the apocalypse so they knew of sranc, the Consult, Nonmen, Inchoroi, Sorcery, etc. etc.
They knew about sranc, certainly. They were allegedly fleeing the apocalypse so they knew of sranc, the Consult, Nonmen, Inchoroi, Sorcery, etc. etc.
What they knew, and what information they allowed to be passed down through the ages, are two separate things entirely. They scrubbed all traces of history and magic from the halls of Ishual, and so too, it would seem, all information regarding the apocalyse/NG/Consult/etc.
I guess the question is really how much contact did they inevitably have via chance bands happening upon them? And did they all kill themselves as a result? I guess if few enough had a chance to accidentally have outside contact, that is plausible.
Yeah that's a separate question entirely.
Just had this thought - from what we have seen, and know, sranc really need to live in more temperate areas that support plentiful insects for eating as that is their major food source - ie The Mop. Further north and into the mountains, less bugs, so less sranc.
Going back to what Bakker said:QuoteThey had no difficulty killing themselves afterward, and he was their better, so why assume he would have difficulty?
Possibly they presumed he would kill himself. I mean, they did and he, being their better, would too right?
Except what he learned was that exile was not death. He learned he could survive, even thrive out there. So he left instead. The key, to go back to my first post, is that what he experienced outside Ishuäl is the key, not really any specific knowledge.