The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The Unholy Consult => Topic started by: EdwardReynolds on July 26, 2017, 08:30:56 am

Title: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: EdwardReynolds on July 26, 2017, 08:30:56 am
A decade of real life waiting and in the last 30 pages the author pissed the whole lot up the wall its just a generic "LOL bad guys win and all the good guys die LOLOL"

Im being very black and white about this but and stripping all the philosophy out to get to the root of the story, the whole exercise was pointless.
Nothing was resolved. Its just an unsatisfying, cliche resumption of the status quo.

7 book and 10 years can be boiled down to two words - dont matter
A beautifully complex world collapsing into a pile of "K Nope"

What am i missing here?
Title: Re: What was the point - Spoilers
Post by: Woden on July 26, 2017, 08:55:52 am
If this were the real end of the story, well, yes, Bakker would be the most greatest troll-writer in the world (surpassing by far GRR Martin), what the fuck would be the purpose of the books.
But it seems that we will have at least to books more with the conclusion. And I truly hope that these books won't be just a succession of gore, misery, rape and death.
I'd like some words of Bakker giving us some light about all of this.
Title: Re: What was the point - Spoilers
Post by: Moosehunter on July 26, 2017, 09:34:35 am
A decade of real life waiting and in the last 30 pages the author pissed the whole lot up the wall its just a generic "LOL bad guys win and all the good guys die LOLOL"

Im being very black and white about this but and stripping all the philosophy out to get to the root of the story, the whole exercise was pointless.
Nothing was resolved. Its just an unsatisfying, cliche resumption of the status quo.

7 book and 10 years can be boiled down to two words - dont matter
A beautifully complex world collapsing into a pile of "K Nope"

What am i missing here?

Well first of all i'm not sure that there are any "Good Guys".

Man is a horrible, brutal race. Selected by the Inchoroi when roaming in Eanna to essentially be another weaponized race. They were manipulated through the use of the Tusk and the subversion of their religion, to attack and destroy the great Nonman civilization.
The Nonmen, although cultured and accomplished, were also fairly brutal in their own right. They took the early tribes of man on this side of the Great Kayarsus  and whelmed them. The Emwanna became a somewhat mentally retarded and servile race through selective breeding.

But back to man. There is not a character in the book that is objectively "good". Even those who view themselves as devout (pure, religious, good) are in fact little more than fanatics who have chosen to concentrate their passions in a particular direction. Proyas has slaughtered Orthodox for their lack of faith in his false prophet. Esmenet has sentenced many to die in her role as Empress of the Three Seas.

Mimara is about the closest i have seen to a good person and she seduced an old man for gain, using her likeness to his only love.

Essentially the books seem to be a harsher reflection of our own reality. No person is any one thing. We are all both good and bad to some degree. We are all selfish. We are all generous. We love and we hate.

I would argue that the books are about "The End Justifies The Means".

This last book felt a little dissatisfying (taken on it's own) but if you combine it with TGO and read both directly after one another it is a fantastic read.
There are at least 2 books to go (i would imagine). Moenghus is king of the Scylvendi and has an intact host ready to fight a retreat across the north. Zeum has been mentioned a lot more in recent books and is now coming into the fray (i hope). Kellhus is possibly still in play but is potentially the biggest bad of all. Crabicus is out in the wild. Imperial forces were gathering in Sumna. And who the hell knows what will come out of the east. I find it strange that Bakker went to all the trouble of leaving one tribe out there. One that rejected the Tusk and thus was not manipulated by the Vile.

And lastly, Acha, Esmenet and Mimara are alive. Possibly Kayutas too.
Title: Re: What was the point - Spoilers
Post by: themerchant on July 26, 2017, 09:46:35 am
2/3 of the way through the story would be my reminder.

Personally I loved the last book, my favourite of the series so far.
Title: Re: What was the point - Spoilers
Post by: Moosehunter on July 26, 2017, 11:59:53 am
2/3 of the way through the story would be my reminder.

Personally I loved the last book, my favourite of the series so far.

I loved it too Merchant but it's completely different than all the others in that it's really the end of the TGO.
I felt the build up to the action was missing when really the previous book was the build up.
The plains of Agongorea were horrifically awesome. The descriptions of the Incu-Holinas were excellent and really helped me visualize the enormity of the Ark. I like to think of that scene in Star Wars TFA when Rey is standing there with the downed Star Destroyer in the desert background, and imagine that the Ark is there. Larger. Majestic. The closest thing to Hell on Earwa.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: Walter on July 26, 2017, 12:27:22 pm
I don't get what you mean by "LOL bad guys win and all the good guys die LOLOL".  Like, surely, if you changed the last chapter so the good guys won an alternate version of you would be here saying 'LOL good guys win and all the bad guys die LOLOL", right?  Can you explain a bit more what you mean?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: Tyrin on July 26, 2017, 12:55:01 pm
"LOL bad guys win and all the good guys die LOLOL"

In my eyes the bad guys lost and the good guys won, so I disagree  :)
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: Wilshire on July 26, 2017, 01:06:02 pm
Welcome to the forum, EdwardReynolds  :)

A decade of real life waiting and in the last 30 pages the author pissed the whole lot up the wall its just a generic "LOL bad guys win and all the good guys die LOLOL"

Im being very black and white about this but and stripping all the philosophy out to get to the root of the story, the whole exercise was pointless.
Nothing was resolved. Its just an unsatisfying, cliche resumption of the status quo.

7 book and 10 years can be boiled down to two words - dont matter
A beautifully complex world collapsing into a pile of "K Nope"

What am i missing here?

I don't get what you mean by "LOL bad guys win and all the good guys die LOLOL".  Like, surely, if you changed the last chapter so the good guys won an alternate version of you would be here saying 'LOL good guys win and all the bad guys die LOLOL", right?  Can you explain a bit more what you mean?

Yeah if you could be more specific that would be quite helpful. Its really hard to address your question without any context.

What parts bothered you? What specifically was a let down? Who do you feel are the good guys, and for that matter, the bad guys, and which group do you believe won?

That generic 'critique', if you can call it that, can be applied to just about anything with only the slightest of adjustments, and would be equally meaningless.
Romeo and Juliet - "LOL bad guys win and all the good guys die LOLOL"
Shawshank Redemption - "LOL good guys win and all the bad guys die LOLOL"

So if you'd like to have a conversation about what you think, you're going to have to, well, let people know what you actually think, otherwise there's nothing here to discuss. Regardless, thanks for voicing an opinion, posts are what keep the forum alive.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: MSJ on July 26, 2017, 02:00:48 pm
Well, the point was for 7 books and twn years of your life you read a series where the author took traditional fantasy tropes and turned them on their head. The ending is just another aspect of what Bakker did with this series.

But,  you know, there is still a 3rd series to be written to finish off TSA. And, i will tell you if it is juat about the destruction of a civilization with no hope...well im not gonna take the time to read it, myself. But, i dont think that is gonna happen. Either Kellhus Tricked the Trickster and will aid humanity through the Outside or it will be a tale of human perseverance. And, i think the latter is much more probable, imo. TSA is a warning to us about what might happen if we let Technology rule us, Nonmen and Inchoroi are both analogs for posthumanism. I think what he did with the 1st 2 series was well done and flipped fantasy on its head. When have you read anything where the bad guys actually win? The hero wasnt a hero after all? Maybe it couldve been done better, i dunno.

Do remember, Bakker is a teacher and teachers like to teach. They also like to be cheeky about it. I figure he wants to show us in the 3rd series, that we humans control our own fate. He's not finished yet, so dont be so critical. And, as the man said hisself, what he did with TUC, well, ive never read nothing like that before in fantasy. And, i read a shit ton of fantasy, and its always the same, "they" are in peril and then find this miraculous way to win the day. Some is done well, others is shite.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: Wilshire on July 26, 2017, 02:06:26 pm
Do remember, Bakker is a teacher and teachers like to teach. They also like to be cheeky about it. I figure he wants to show us in the 3rd series, that we humans control our own fate. He's not finished yet, so dont be so critical. And, as the man said hisself, what he did with TUC, well, ive never read nothing like that before in fantasy. And, i read a shit ton of fantasy, and its always the same, "they" are in peril and then find this miraculous way to win the day. Some is done well, others is shite.

Bakker has some nuggets down at the bottom of the acknowledgments section regarding this. Just a few words, maybe part of a sentence, but I think its quite telling. He wrote for a reason, that's clear. What that reason is will probably be a debate for as long as there are people asking why.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: MSJ on July 26, 2017, 02:14:48 pm
Quote from:  Wilshire
Bakker has some nuggets down at the bottom of the acknowledgments section regarding this. Just a few words, maybe part of a sentence, but I think its quite telling. He wrote for a reason, that's clear. What that reason is will probably be a debate for as long as there are people asking why.

Part of it no doubt is the philosophical underpinnings. But, there's more there. As i said, i think this was 18 year old Bakker story and its finish and he never swayed from the meat of the story. As the books go along he becomes a better and better writer. Thats why i think TSTSNBN will be the lesson.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: Wilshire on July 26, 2017, 02:24:46 pm
Quote from:  Wilshire
Bakker has some nuggets down at the bottom of the acknowledgments section regarding this. Just a few words, maybe part of a sentence, but I think its quite telling. He wrote for a reason, that's clear. What that reason is will probably be a debate for as long as there are people asking why.

Part of it no doubt is the philosophical underpinnings. But, there's more there. As i said, i think this was 18 year old Bakker story and its finish and he never swayed from the meat of the story. As the books go along he becomes a better and better writer. Thats why i think TSTSNBN will be the lesson.


Right, but what will be the subject ;). We'll have to wait and find out.
Like 42 is the answer, but without the question its meaningless.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: MSJ on July 26, 2017, 02:39:22 pm
Posthumanism, how technology will ruin us....just a guess
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: Wilshire on July 26, 2017, 02:42:31 pm
Posthumanism, how technology will ruin us....just a guess
Yeah probably close to the mark. Wish he'd publish more scifi - that connection becomes more clear and he's got damn good stories to tell.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: MSJ on July 26, 2017, 02:49:27 pm
Wilshire, i cant recommend highly enough to take up BK's rec on Three Body Problem. Deals with alot of these issues and from what ive reas so far, is very good.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: MSJ on July 26, 2017, 02:51:27 pm
Also, i hate when someone starts a thread, bitches and moans, doesnt give us enough info to know what their issue is, then doesnt participate anymore.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: Walter on July 26, 2017, 03:00:34 pm
I dunno, I think it's fine.

Like, very very few people read anything, at all.  It is terrifying how few people have read a book since college.  Authors are basically hurling their work into a void.

This person read all seven of these books, and felt invested enough to google up a website where they could write what they thought about it.  That's an incredible level of engagement.

Yeah, I disagree with their thoughts, but whatever.  The fact that they had em is a great sign for the books.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: MSJ on July 26, 2017, 03:30:12 pm
Well, maybe your right. Id just like to hear the specifics is all.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: Wilshire on July 26, 2017, 03:50:13 pm
Wilshire, i cant recommend highly enough to take up BK's rec on Three Body Problem. Deals with alot of these issues and from what ive reas so far, is very good.
I'll put it on the list. Unfortunately, its a long, long list, and I'm at like 3 books this year lol.

Also, i hate when someone starts a thread, bitches and moans, doesnt give us enough info to know what their issue is, then doesnt participate anymore.
Comments like this discourage people from posting. I can understand your frustration, but hey, there's some 25 replies to this topic, most of which don't address the initial post since it was non substantive anyway. I call that an overall win for the forum, regardless of fair or foul original intent of the OP.

Its really the responsibility of those who respond to encourage further discussion. A cessation of the discussion, imo, is largely a failing on their part to engage the OP. For what its worth, I take it as a personal failing on my part.

The greater impact of a thread is that all the posts are permanent. If some future user comes across this and clicks it, what will they see? A bunch of superfans flaming someone not part of the circle-jerk, or a community interested in engaging deeper discussion with even though who disagree? If the former, I have failed and they will leave, and if the latter then maybe they will feel compelled to participate themselves. :) . No follow-up of the OP does not change that outcome.

Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: MSJ on July 26, 2017, 03:57:31 pm
Wilshire, just say im bad at the internet and slap me on the wrist. You know i do this once a month... ;)
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: Wilshire on July 26, 2017, 04:15:48 pm
Wilshire, just say im bad at the internet and slap me on the wrist. You know i do this once a month... ;)
Big monologues are, apparently, more my style. Sorry lol, someone decided it would be a good idea to make me a moderator.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: MSJ on July 26, 2017, 04:18:38 pm
Quote from:  Wilshire
Bakker has some nuggets down at the bottom of the acknowledgments section regarding this. Just a few words, maybe part of a sentence, but I think its quite telling. He wrote for a reason, that's clear. What that reason is will probably be a debate for as long as there are people asking why.

You do good, buddy! ;)
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: Erratic Halaroi on July 26, 2017, 04:48:05 pm
Well said, Wilshire. Dissenting views should be welcome. Some are more helpful than others...but all should be welcome. I don't know if my view is dissenting or not as I liked the book...but I did find myself disappointed by it. My disappointment, while meaningful, is mostly my fault.  I fear I set my expectations for the book to high.  This is driven by two things:

1. It was my understanding that the TSTSNBN is not a sure thing and it's very possible that this is the closure of the series.  People are talking a lot about another series after this one and I will admit that it appears to be written as if there is more to come. If we get confirmation of that, then my reflection on this book will be much more positive as I will understand this is not the proverbial end.   

2. I have always found myself disappointed by endings. I remember reading the Hyperion series by Dan Simmons and being utterly disappointed with how it concluded. The difference between Hyperion and TSA is my expectations where MUCH higher for TSA...thus my disappointment is much more impactful. 

Again, these are more on me than anything else. To be clear, I loved the series and TUC...like the first poster said...10 years of my life have been invested in and evangelizing R Scott Bakker and these books. It's a testament to the author that his work would inspire these types of emotions. Being inspired, positive or negative, by the written word is a good thing...I wish it happen more often to more people.  Bakkers' work inspired me...it made me think, it inspired me to research, it forced me to question my beliefs and grow as a person...that is what is important...and for that, I thank him.         
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: H on July 26, 2017, 04:54:21 pm
Bakkers' work inspired me...it made me think, it inspired me to research, it forced me to question my beliefs and grow as a person...that is what is important...and for that, I thank him.

Serious question, the ending of TUC did not do the same for you?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: Erratic Halaroi on July 26, 2017, 06:02:41 pm
It absolutely did. That said, I can be both inspired and disappointed at the same time. The end of TUC was awesome...but I was expecting double plus awesome...thus inspired and disappointed.  Again, I went into it thinking this is likely it...and we will not be getting TSTSNBN. I think having that lens on while reading really skewed what I was expecting from the book...which, ultimately, was a lot more closure than what we got. 

A specific example is Crabicus. As I was reaching the end and there was no mention (or action) on his part, I was more and more anticipating his arrival at the end...when the end came, as awesome as it was, he was no where to be found (that we could see).  Both he and the survivor were fantastic characters to introduce...and I get that the survivor served his purpose (much like Cleric...so fun to read about...but in the end, had a purpose and it was served) and accepted his leap for what is what (or for what I could understand of it at least). But Crabicus...I was absolutely expecting him to play a part...any part...but from what we had insight into, he did not. 

There are more examples but I hope that illustrates where I'm coming from.  I did not go into it with the expectation that there would be more books. I had high expectations for closure...grand, beautiful, jaw dropping closure.  While what we got was grand and beautiful, it was not the closure I was expecting...I wanted more...and that, largely, is on me.         
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: Wilshire on July 26, 2017, 06:07:46 pm
2. I have always found myself disappointed by endings. I remember reading the Hyperion series by Dan Simmons and being utterly disappointed with how it concluded. The difference between Hyperion and TSA is my expectations where MUCH higher for TSA...thus my disappointment is much more impactful. 

Oh man, I loved the Hyperion Cantos, start to finish. I'm a sucker, it seems, for conclusions. I give a lot of grace to authors for writings as they will, regardless of expectation, and appreciate greatly when a story ends in a way that isn't satisfying in the way people expected it to be.

And I agree fully that, while TSA might not be concluded, people seem to be leaning heavily on the prospect of  TSTSNBN. TUC exists as it does, and another installment won't change that.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: Erratic Halaroi on July 26, 2017, 06:29:15 pm
I'm getting better at that...but clearly this particular cases is proving to be a little more challenging for me. :)  It's still fresh...I strongly suspect, over time, I will love it even more for what it is...even if it's the last we see (read) of this terrifying yet beautiful world.  I am and will always be a huge fan and evangelize the books to all who will listen.  I'm just processing why I feel this sense of...maybe disappointment is the wrong word...so I will say this sense of...wanting more.  Again, I think it comes down to my expectations vs a failure to deliver...Scott delivered...and I hope he is given the opportunity to deliver more.           

Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: codebread on July 26, 2017, 06:51:14 pm
Having said it in other places, I'll be brief. I agree with the "What the hell?" sentiment for TUC's end overall. I was loving the first half of the book, but as soon as the attack on the Ark begins, I was feeling a bit let down. I was expecting more of a look into the Ark and Golgotterath itself, more of what the stories and Akka's Dreams had made me envision. We didn't really get any of that; just a lot of fighting outside of it and a look into the Golden Room.

Many of the plotlines that were set up aren't concluded (Crabicus, Ciphrang Assassin, Meppa, to name a few off the top of my head), and that's without acknowledging that the book creates a huge amount of questions at the end without explaining any of them. I think the ending would have felt more satisfying if it all hadn't happened so fast. However, right as you're expecting to get all of the answers, the entire plot turns on its head and the book ends.

Now, I love the way the story concludes by itself. The last line gives me chills. I think ending the story on disaster like this is awesome. I just wish that it had felt more coherent and less rushed. Keeping in mind that this is the conclusion to a series of books, I feel a bit cheated. I think you're going to get this opinion from most people who aren't aware that a third series might be written (Just take a look at the Goodreads reviews- they read much like OP's post and don't seem to know there is a planned third series).

I think if Bakker were to come out and say, "Yes there will definitely be a third series", I would feel better about it. As it stands, I liked the book a lot, but I have very mixed feelings about the ending.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: panorama on July 26, 2017, 09:37:06 pm
I agree. I feel like a decade of waiting and reading has been just flushed down the toilet. I'm cheesed off enough to register on this forum for the first time. I'll be posting my own thread to go over some of my frustration.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: Nil Sertrax on July 26, 2017, 10:07:21 pm
I've posted on this before and explained that I'm a huge fan of this series but I'm also disappointed in the ending.  It's not so much the end goal of inverting the standard fantasy trope where the over-matched heroes find some miraculous way to save the world but rather the opaque narrative.  I wanted to feel the full force of the world ending and the failure of what may have been the world's last best chance at survival but instead all I felt was a burning desire to read and reread the last chapter to figure out what the hell actually occurred.  I've read it again and again and I still can't make heads or tails of it.  And the real kicker is, neither can anyone else!  Beyond strange theories and wild speculations, nobody can say with any degree of certainty just what happened, never mind discussing the why things happened the way they did.   

I can't imagine Bakker's intention to wrap up this opus was to leave everyone completely confused but as his prose improved from book to book his narrative clarity got worse and worse.   I've said it before and I'll say it again, the whole Aspect Emperor series after the Judging Eye could have benefited greatly from a strong editor.       
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: EdwardReynolds on July 27, 2017, 07:39:31 am
Fist off guys and gals thanks for all the replys, i love these books and love seeing other people hitting me up back with their own views:)

Second sorry for the wall of text. Just kidding im not sorry.


I don't get what you mean by "LOL bad guys win and all the good guys die LOLOL".  Like, surely, if you changed the last chapter so the good guys won an alternate version of you would be here saying 'LOL good guys win and all the bad guys die LOLOL", right?  Can you explain a bit more what you mean?
For example I will point to book One. Two. Three. Four. Five. And six. The author is perfectly capable of concluding a story in a satisfying way that doesnt involve all the shining knights killing all the orcs and no one dies. Book 7 just murders everyone on the turn of a dime at the very end. 
Book 7 explicitly outlines that souls can go to hell for eternal torment. Thats us. Im not religeous in real life, but this is clearly the relatable factor to us as readers. Humans and Nonmen are still shitty, but they dont go around creating goblins that love fucking stab wounds to kill their enemies. Scranc and the Consort are not the good guys.

Feel free to convince me the inverse is true.
If this were the real end of the story, well, yes, Bakker would be the most greatest troll-writer in the world (surpassing by far GRR Martin), what the fuck would be the purpose of the books.
I am unaware of any future books, all press has pointed to The Unholy Consort being the end. Please link me to sources - I am by no means not going to read more by Bakker, I love these (Kellhus) books.
Well first of all i'm not sure that there are any "Good Guys".
...
And lastly, Acha, Esmenet and Mimara are alive. Possibly Kayutas too.
Humans all have their souls sucked into hell, tbh im 0% convinced the judging eye is a worthy indication of damnation -Esmi had a whore house burned down and all the workers executed. The Tusk prayers mention 'dont judge me on my actions by my intentions' or something along this line and Esmi constantly thinks about brutally murdering people.
Her halo is a different color and only the Eye can see it when its turned on. IMO The Judging Eye is some magic god like stuff but just like everything magic and/or god related it is falable based on the source. Mimara loves her mother.
Kayutas is under the ark, hes dead as all heck, and much like Cnaiur whe we all thought was dead last time we arent given explicit proof any of Akka, Esmi or Mimara are alive. Mimara finally ditches her chorae but that doesnt mean squat, as there is explicit mention of the Horde recovering and utilising chorae at the click of fingers.

Welcome to the forum, EdwardReynolds  :)
Yeah if you could be more specific that would be quite helpful. Its really hard to address your question without any context.

Thanks for the welcome :)
Please keep rereading my OP untill it makes sense, some of my above responses clarify.
As mentioned im cutting to the bone, good and bad teams are patently obvious.

the destruction of a civilization with no hope...
The hero wasnt a hero after all?

Thats eaxactly what the last 30 pages of Book 7 does to 10 years of story. Inverse cliche is still cliche.

Also Rorschach from The Watchmen says hi.
And The Comedian from The Watchment says hi.
Deadpool says hi
Heisenberg says hi.
The Anti hero is an existing trope.

Being classically righteous doesnt make you the good guy. You dont even have to be the good guy to be the good guy. One entity in the story is trying to save the collective souls of humanity from Hell, and he got killed randomly in the las 30 pages because LOL. What was the point of it all?

(click to show/hide)

------
Anyway, there are still a lot of untied up plot lines and points like akka, Moengus II, and crabby etc whatever...im all for a cliff hanger but this ending as far as I can figure so far is a pile of garbage.

 
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: Cynical Cat on July 27, 2017, 09:33:03 am
The Judging Eye doesn't see with modern, real world morality it sees with the morality of Old Testament God(s).  Women are less than men, dogs are unclean, and its moral to for powerful people to avenge wrongs done to their children with mass slaughter.  It's one of the reasons that damnation galls:  not only is the fate of most, but the judgement criteria is manifestly unjust.  Esmenet's crimes are the crimes of a prostitute, an empress, and a mother.  The second and third are probably allowable under the Tusk and as for the first, while whores are condemned in the Tusk notice who Ajokli is married to.  The rules are never the same for the mighty.

As for the Second Apocalypse, well that's the name of this board.  Is anyone really that surprised that it occurred?  The first one was survived.  All hope is not yet lost.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: Woden on July 27, 2017, 09:52:55 am
I think if Bakker were to come out and say, "Yes there will definitely be a third series", I would feel better about it. As it stands, I liked the book a lot, but I have very mixed feelings about the ending.

I feel pretty much the same.

Some of the plotlines have (for me) little sense without a continuation.
For example, Achamian&Mimara: what will be the point of travelling all through Earwa, endure Cil-Aujas, the Mop, a dragon, Ishual, etc, and then arrive to the Great Ordeal and don't use the fucking Judging Eye, share at most some pathetic words with Kellhus (sparing him useful information about Cnaiur, Ishual... and not really confronting him) and don't do a fucking thing in the great battle of their time???
Just watch the outcome and cry "fly you fools"??? WTF!!!
I mean I'd be very pissed off if Gandalf went to the Morannon with all the Gondor suckers to not to fight in the battle and to just watch how the orcs go medieval with all his friends.
What kind of gnostic mage is Achamian? I was expecting real action for him, not just playing the midwife with Mimara and Esmenet.
Yes, they had a cool travel through Earwa, and found themselves in their wandering (as qirri junkies, lol), but, for fuck sake, they don't do a relevant thing for the common cause (meaning trying to prevent the Second Apocalypse). I hope that they will be able to do something more in the next series because Achamian is one of my favourite characters but his part in this book is pretty lame to me.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: Tyrin on July 27, 2017, 10:59:06 am
Humans all have their souls sucked into hell, tbh im 0% convinced the judging eye is a worthy indication of damnation

It doesn't matter whether it's a "worthy" indicator, it only matters if it is true. And all evidence in the series point to it being the true objective indicator of who is damned and who is not.

The Anti hero is an existing trope.

Except Kellhus isn't an anti-hero, it turns out he's just a full-fledged villain in a world of villains. (Eternal Kellhus apologists might disagree but I think their position is a lot more untenable after TUC).
I mean even if you don't think Kellhus is basically the Big Bad of the series after TUC, then at least he is the "Unknown Bad", since we know that the Dunsult really do want to close the world to the outside, which would be a great thing for humanity even if you spend life being raped by Sranc, because at least you don't have a 99.9% chance to suffer even worse atrocities in the afterlife once the Outside is closed.

But the only thing we know about Kellhus is that he teamed up with Ajokli at the cost of untold thousands/millions of souls and allowing Ajokli to manifest in Earwa in some way through him(turning it into literal hellscape), and we're not even sure if Kellhus actually had some plan to close off the Outside instead of just being content to starve the other non-Ajokli gods.

For that reason I consider Kelljokli to be a far greater evil than the Consult, since the Consult's ends would at least help humanity to no longer suffer eternal damnation, while we don't really know what Kelljokli had planned beyond turning Earwa into Hell.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: Wilshire on July 27, 2017, 11:34:16 am
Welcome to the forum, EdwardReynolds  :)
Yeah if you could be more specific that would be quite helpful. Its really hard to address your question without any context.

Thanks for the welcome :)
Please keep rereading my OP until it makes sense, some of my above responses clarify.
As mentioned im cutting to the bone, good and bad teams are patently obvious.

Cutting to the bone and simply leaving out details are not the same thing.

What's obvious? I asked who's the good guy for you because, well, its not obvious (obviously ;) ).
Who's goals are good? I don't want to have to lay out the whole series here, so why not just have the conversation instead of avoiding it? I'll give you some examples to help out though.
Kellhus - Does he want to save the world or take it for himself? Becomes the God of Hell to save the sins of humanity (jesus figure), or to avoid his own damnation (selfish)
Inchoroi - to save their souls, and the souls of all of Earwa from eternal damnation. Is this good or bad?

I think we can all agree none of us would be here if it was simple. If its simple for you because you see much farther and more clearly, please enlighten me, the simple in your midst.

Easy to make a statement, harder to make an explanation, more difficult still to engage in conversation. Cant have the later without the former, so again, if you'd like to talk, do please be more explicit about your thoughts so I don't have to fill in the gaps for you. Otherwise, it seems you're just venting, and that's great, but you'll probably find interesting conversation difficult here.


---
A reminder to everyone: personal attacks, even as retaliation, are unacceptable. You are responsible for yourself. If you'd like to have a discussion about how you feel wronged, please see this thread (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=2270.0). Further discussion about this shall be directed to that post and will be deleted from this thread. Thanks.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: codebread on July 27, 2017, 02:08:57 pm

I am unaware of any future books, all press has pointed to The Unholy Consort being the end. Please link me to sources - I am by no means not going to read more by Bakker, I love these (Kellhus) books.

http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=1029.0

I'm not sure where the original source of any of this is, but the third series is currently named TSTSNBN, and as it stands, will be a duology. I think the lack of this information being readily available is the biggest problem. People think TUC is the intended end, and it isn't. Whether or not the series gets made is another story, I suppose.

Also, Bakker is having an AMA on August 2nd on reddit. He's mentioned that after the release of TUC he wants to share the actual name of the third series. You might want to check that AMA out.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: Wilshire on July 27, 2017, 02:31:45 pm
Oh, yeah, "the third series".

Thats a bit of a story, but basically, The Second Apocalypse was originally concieved as a Trilogy, with Prince of Nothing being book 1, The Aspect Emperor as book 2, and per Bakkers only notation he has ever give "The Series That Shall Not Be Named" as book 3.

PON was split into a trillogy, TAE into 4, and as of last statements available (probably years old at this point) TSTSNBN is supposed to be a duology.

Here's an old link from an interview done in 2004 (https://www.sfsite.com/10a/sb185.htm). Bakker says:
Quote
The Prince of Nothing consists of three books, The Darkness that Comes Before, The Warrior-Prophet, and The Thousandfold Thought. They tell the story of the crucial events that occur some twenty years before the Second Apocalypse begins. I have outlines (whose original forms, coincidentally, date back some twenty years) that sketch the story of the Second Apocalypse, starting with The Aspect-Emperor and ending with The-Book-that-Shall-Not-Be-Named. Whether these will turn into trilogies like The Prince of Nothing remains to be seen. My guess is that each will be a dualogy.

Basically, PON is a prequel, TAE is the start of The Second Apocalypse, and TSTSNBN is the ending.
Blame Bakker for obfuscating this fact for the last 10+ years - he's superb at shooting himself in the foot. I'm not sure if he thought he was being clever with his cagey comments through the years, or if he thought he was playing some funny joke, or honestly thought everyone just knew TAE was 'the beginning' per the above quote from 13 years ago.

I don't know if I've ever fully read that linked quote - the implication is that with TUC we're in the very middle of the story.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: Madness on July 27, 2017, 02:53:41 pm
Welcome to the Second Apocalypse, EdwardReynolds

This last book felt a little dissatisfying (taken on it's own) but if you combine it with TGO and read both directly after one another it is a fantastic read.

Or TAE taken as one book with narrative arcs across four portions ;)?

There are at least 2 books to go (i would imagine). Moenghus is king of the Scylvendi and has an intact host ready to fight a retreat across the north. Zeum has been mentioned a lot more in recent books and is now coming into the fray (i hope). Kellhus is possibly still in play but is potentially the biggest bad of all. Crabicus is out in the wild. Imperial forces were gathering in Sumna. And who the hell knows what will come out of the east. I find it strange that Bakker went to all the trouble of leaving one tribe out there. One that rejected the Tusk and thus was not manipulated by the Vile.

And lastly, Acha, Esmenet and Mimara are alive. Possibly Kayutas too.

Not to mention all ensouled creatures across Earwa can perceive the No-God. Whatever his reasons, the Aspect-Emperor spoke true and wasn't warring across the wastes of Earwa against a myth.

"LOL bad guys win and all the good guys die LOLOL"

In my eyes the bad guys lost and the good guys won, so I disagree  :)

Lol.

This person read all seven of these books, and felt invested enough to google up a website where they could write what they thought about it.  That's an incredible level of engagement.

I'm glad for ER's presence, either way.

The greater impact of a thread is that all the posts are permanent. If some future user comes across this and clicks it, what will they see? A bunch of superfans flaming someone not part of the circle-jerk, or a community interested in engaging deeper discussion with even though who disagree? If the former, I have failed and they will leave, and if the latter then maybe they will feel compelled to participate themselves. :) . No follow-up of the OP does not change that outcome.

+1

Well said, Wilshire. Dissenting views should be welcome. Some are more helpful than others...but all should be welcome.

They are. In fact, they're encouraged ;).

1. It was my understanding that the TSTSNBN is not a sure thing and it's very possible that this is the closure of the series.  People are talking a lot about another series after this one and I will admit that it appears to be written as if there is more to come. If we get confirmation of that, then my reflection on this book will be much more positive as I will understand this is not the proverbial end.

Bakker's online presence is sporadic at best and he certainly hasn't done himself any favours regarding the necessity of TSTSNBN. I imagine we're going to get some statements during the r/fantasy AMA next week but at the moment, as far as I know, no one has purchased TSTSNBN (which is itself an opportunity because Overlook seems unable to do Bakker's work due diligence even).

But I do find it incredibly ignorant on the part of readers - not necessarily you, just using your comment as a jump-off point - that they are unwilling to distinguish The Aspect-Emperor's narrative from narrative seeds that might find their fruition in TSTSNBN.

Again, these are more on me than anything else. To be clear, I loved the series and TUC...like the first poster said...10 years of my life have been invested in and evangelizing R Scott Bakker and these books. It's a testament to the author that his work would inspire these types of emotions. Being inspired, positive or negative, by the written word is a good thing...I wish it happen more often to more people.  Bakkers' work inspired me...it made me think, it inspired me to research, it forced me to question my beliefs and grow as a person...that is what is important...and for that, I thank him.

Preach. Also, I appreciate your avatar 8).

A specific example is Crabicus. As I was reaching the end and there was no mention (or action) on his part, I was more and more anticipating his arrival at the end...when the end came, as awesome as it was, he was no where to be found (that we could see).  Both he and the survivor were fantastic characters to introduce...and I get that the survivor served his purpose (much like Cleric...so fun to read about...but in the end, had a purpose and it was served) and accepted his leap for what is what (or for what I could understand of it at least). But Crabicus...I was absolutely expecting him to play a part...any part...but from what we had insight into, he did not.

Bakker's publicly mentioned that Crabicus (not by that now fan-canon name) has some future role to play. Again, among a great number of others, is an example of Bakker seeding something for later but wasn't essential to the plot of TAE - as opposed to, the Survivor, who did double duty regarding some metaphysical insight as well as making me, anyhow, exceptionally wary of the Mutilated.
       
2. I have always found myself disappointed by endings. I remember reading the Hyperion series by Dan Simmons and being utterly disappointed with how it concluded. The difference between Hyperion and TSA is my expectations where MUCH higher for TSA...thus my disappointment is much more impactful. 

Oh man, I loved the Hyperion Cantos, start to finish. I'm a sucker, it seems, for conclusions. I give a lot of grace to authors for writings as they will, regardless of expectation, and appreciate greatly when a story ends in a way that isn't satisfying in the way people expected it to be.

+1

Many of the plotlines that were set up aren't concluded (Crabicus, Ciphrang Assassin, Meppa, to name a few off the top of my head), and that's without acknowledging that the book creates a huge amount of questions at the end without explaining any of them. I think the ending would have felt more satisfying if it all hadn't happened so fast. However, right as you're expecting to get all of the answers, the entire plot turns on its head and the book ends.

I've mentioned to others but Bakker is well-aware of his loose ends, whichever he brings more life to later. But again I think distinguishing the narrative arcs of TAE as one book from the loose seeds will go a long way towards appreciating TAE as its own story.

I agree. I feel like a decade of waiting and reading has been just flushed down the toilet. I'm cheesed off enough to register on this forum for the first time. I'll be posting my own thread to go over some of my frustration.

Once again, panorama, I'm glad you found your way here, regardless :).

I can't imagine Bakker's intention to wrap up this opus was to leave everyone completely confused but as his prose improved from book to book his narrative clarity got worse and worse.   I've said it before and I'll say it again, the whole Aspect Emperor series after the Judging Eye could have benefited greatly from a strong editor.       

TGO and TUC definitely would have benefited from the work of his previous editor at Overlook. Ultimately, despite Bakker's fault in the matter, Overlook failed to do even their due diligence, in my opinion.

Mind you, I don't have the trouble teasing narrative clarity that others seem to. Whether that's an artifact of my predispositions or an illusion of interpretative confidence, I'm not sure. I will note again that I seem to be among a readerly minority in a good number of my interpretations so far.

As for the Second Apocalypse, well that's the name of this board.  Is anyone really that surprised that it occurred?  The first one was survived.  All hope is not yet lost.

All hope is not yet lost. One of the reasons I enjoy reading Bakker so much is because the characters continue to strive despite their harsh world. Bakker's writing has always provided me with much solace.

Paraphrasing TMH but "it's like no one has the emotional cahoones to gaze back upon the void itself, as it is, and continue to live."

I think we can all agree none of us would be here if it was simple. If its simple for you because you see much farther and more clearly, please enlighten me, the simple in your midst.

Indeed.

A reminder to everyone: personal attacks, even as retaliation, are unacceptable. You are responsible for yourself. If you'd like to have a discussion about how you feel wronged, please see this thread (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=2270.0). Further discussion about this shall be directed to that post and will be deleted from this thread. Thanks.

Thanks, #2.


I am unaware of any future books, all press has pointed to The Unholy Consort being the end. Please link me to sources - I am by no means not going to read more by Bakker, I love these (Kellhus) books.

http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=1029.0

I'm not sure where the original source of any of this is, but the third series is currently named TSTSNBN, and as it stands, will be a duology. I think the lack of this information being readily available is the biggest problem. People think TUC is the intended end, and it isn't. Whether or not the series gets made is another story, I suppose.

Also, Bakker is having an AMA on August 2nd on reddit. He's mentioned that after the release of TUC he wants to share the actual name of the third series. You might want to check that AMA out.

The wotmania Files: Interview with R. Scott Bakker (6/27/2004) (http://ofblog.blogspot.ca/2009/02/wotmania-files-interview-with-r-scott.html):

Quote from: The wotmania Files: Interview with R. Scott Bakker (6/27/2004) (http://ofblog.blogspot.ca/2009/02/wotmania-files-interview-with-r-scott.html)
When I originally conceived the whole story (The Second Apocalypse) way back when, it was a trilogy with The Prince of Nothing as the first book, The Aspect-Emperor as the second, and The-Book-that-Shall-Not-Be-Named as the third. But of course The Prince of Nothing has since become a trilogy in its own right, which would seem to suggest that The Second Apocalypse will be nine books long! I honestly have no idea how long it will ultimately be. My best guess is that The Aspect-Emperor and The-Book-that-Shall-Not-Be-Named will both be dualogies - if that's really a word...

Apparently, Wilshire beat me to it :P.

I'm almost positive there's another post corroborating this on Zombie Three-Seas...

Quote from: Bakker (http://forum.three-seas.com/topics/543)
The original plan was to write The Second Apocalypse (am I weird for loving that title as much as I do?) as a trilogy. Since the first installment, The Prince of Nothing turned into a trilogy in itself, I'm assuming the same thing will happen with the sequels.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: MSJ on July 27, 2017, 05:54:26 pm
And, id like to say dissenting views are what keep the forum going, keep the conversation flowing. I have no problem with them. I have many issues with TUC, which many have already stated. If you see my posts from here and Westeros, i have my fair share share of criticizing Bakker, but im still a fanboy.  ✌
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: Francis Buck's Crush on July 27, 2017, 06:02:14 pm
I don't see any problem with not having a Disney fairy tale ending, myself. Hell, the overall series is named THE SECOND APOCALYPSE. Btw, there is still a third series coming.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: MSJ on July 27, 2017, 06:11:06 pm
With regards to TSTSNBN, hasnt Bakker also stated that upon finishing TUC that his "original" story was complete and he would be fine with falling dead tomorrow? Or, something aling those lines?

So, what i take from that is this is the story he created as "Teen Bakker" and TSTSNBN is something he added on layer when he got into philosophy and such. As me and Wilshire were discussing, TSTSNBN will be the lesson or to show us what mankind is capable of without magic and technology. TSTSNBN is "Adult Philosophy Teacher Bakker" vision.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: Francis Buck's Crush on July 27, 2017, 06:27:48 pm
With regards to TSTSNBN, hasnt Bakker also stated that upon finishing TUC that his "original" story was complete and he would be fine with falling dead tomorrow? Or, something aling those lines?

So, what i take from that is this is the story he created as "Teen Bakker" and TSTSNBN is something he added on layer when he got into philosophy and such. As me and Wilshire were discussing, TSTSNBN will be the lesson or to show us what mankind is capable of without magic and technology. TSTSNBN is "Adult Philosophy Teacher Bakker" vision.
After TGO, I never 100% trusted Bakker's words. So much for Cnaiür's arc being finished :P
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: Wilshire on July 27, 2017, 06:55:13 pm
With regards to TSTSNBN, hasnt Bakker also stated that upon finishing TUC that his "original" story was complete and he would be fine with falling dead tomorrow? Or, something aling those lines?

So, what i take from that is this is the story he created as "Teen Bakker" and TSTSNBN is something he added on layer when he got into philosophy and such. As me and Wilshire were discussing, TSTSNBN will be the lesson or to show us what mankind is capable of without magic and technology. TSTSNBN is "Adult Philosophy Teacher Bakker" vision.


Yup, something confusing like that. Like I said, he definitely made it less clear to those listening that there might be something after TUC. Yet, in 2004 he clearly said TAE starts the tale and TSTSNBN ends it. Wtf.


After TGO, I never 100% trusted Bakker's words. So much for Cnaiür's arc being finished :P
Dude, tell me about it. That was a straight up lie. Again, a masterful shot directly into his own foot. Now we have to question everything he says about his own book.

Now, I'm more willing to accept words regarding IRL stuff, which 'the number of books' falls within. But, yeah, if he just lies all the time, who knows.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: codebread on July 27, 2017, 06:59:07 pm
I've mentioned to others but Bakker is well-aware of his loose ends, whichever he brings more life to later. But again I think distinguishing the narrative arcs of TAE as one book from the loose seeds will go a long way towards appreciating TAE as its own story.

I appreciate TAE for what it is, absolutely. However, I can't ignore that major series-spanning questions are still unanswered and may forever go unanswered. That is the source of my disappointment more than anything.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: Woden on July 27, 2017, 07:06:28 pm
I don't see any problem with not having a Disney fairy tale ending, myself. Hell, the overall series is named THE SECOND APOCALYPSE. Btw, there is still a third series coming.

No problem for me if TUC were the end of it but at least all storylines were clear and decently closed, obviously an "so did the Great Ordeal perish..." is not enough.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: Wilshire on July 27, 2017, 07:12:03 pm
I've mentioned to others but Bakker is well-aware of his loose ends, whichever he brings more life to later. But again I think distinguishing the narrative arcs of TAE as one book from the loose seeds will go a long way towards appreciating TAE as its own story.

I appreciate TAE for what it is, absolutely. However, I can't ignore that major series-spanning questions are still unanswered and may forever go unanswered. That is the source of my disappointment more than anything.

Without TSTSNBN, the entire series will be less than it could have been, for me that's a certainty.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: Woden on July 27, 2017, 07:22:34 pm
I've mentioned to others but Bakker is well-aware of his loose ends, whichever he brings more life to later. But again I think distinguishing the narrative arcs of TAE as one book from the loose seeds will go a long way towards appreciating TAE as its own story.

I appreciate TAE for what it is, absolutely. However, I can't ignore that major series-spanning questions are still unanswered and may forever go unanswered. That is the source of my disappointment more than anything.

Without TSTSNBN, the entire series will be less than it could have been, for me that's a certainty.

Agreed, for me it would be like ASOIAF with no "Winds of Winter", which is a damned possibility, by the way.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: Wilshire on July 27, 2017, 07:23:54 pm
I worry for Bakker's future publications .
[edit] so as to not be misquoted or misinterpreted, I worry the same as I worried for TGO/TUC, which stems from my disappointment in Overlook as a shite publishing company, and has nothing to do with Bakker's books or his writing.[/edit]
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: TLEILAXU on July 27, 2017, 07:33:17 pm
TSA is a warning to us about what might happen if we let Technology rule us, Nonmen and Inchoroi are both analogs for posthumanism.
I strongly disagree. In a universe with objective morality and hungry Gods, technology is the only thing that can save mankind. Even Kellhus knows such. The fact that the creators of this technology are horrid immoral creatures doesn't help though.
As for the series, I think TUC is a perfectly fine place to end, although we do indeed need at least a big AMA on Reddit or something to clear up questions and confusions. The ending is beautiful and un-expected. One of my favorite characters, despite his spare appearance, was Shaeönanra, so there was some disappointment upon learning he was dead, but overall the twist made up for it.
I also liked how the ending was left open for future installments. Just a good place to end overall.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: Woden on July 27, 2017, 07:56:33 pm
I worry for Bakker's future publications .

Me too. What about the critics' reviews?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: MSJ on July 27, 2017, 11:20:58 pm
Quote from:  Tleilaxu
I strongly disagree. In a universe with objective morality and hungry Gods, technology is the only thing that can save mankind. Even Kellhus knows such. The fact that the creators of this technology are horrid immoral creatures doesn't help though.
As for the series, I think TUC is a perfectly fine place to end, although we do indeed need at least a big AMA on Reddit or something to clear up questions and confusions. The ending is beautiful and un-expected. One of my favorite characters, despite his spare appearance, was Shaeönanra, so there was some disappointment upon learning he was dead, but overall the twist made up for it.
I also liked how the ending was left open for future installments. Just a good place to end overall.

Uhhh, buddy, technology (Tekne) is what is causing the world to end. I.E., the No-God and all its weapon races. Not to mention what technology did to the Progenitors to make them want to reach Godhood. I think you got it backwards there, but thats just my opinion.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: Rots on July 28, 2017, 03:44:36 am
Just finished the book. Ive been in self imposed exile from the boards for weeks. I must say.. meh. For the record i am 100% fine with the world ending and Mog running rampant. However, ~40% of the book devoted to agongorea? Come the hell on. Yes, we get it. Men = sranc. that is obvious to any casual study of man and history. I dont think we needed hundreds of pages of that.

I feel shortchanged. The Ark, the golden Ark, the inchies, Shae, where were the massive dumps of info? Keep in mind i literally just finished the book and have not read the appendices yet. But yeah..40% to the obvious and well worn tracks of the inhumanity of man was way too much.

Also, the editing was bad. Bad enough to take me out of the story. There were a lot of verb tense mistakes, repetitive descriptors in back to back to back sentences, etc.

Im looking forward to reading the thoughts of those that see deeper than i..but overall color me underwhelmed.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: CondYoke on July 28, 2017, 05:40:50 am
24 hours later, and I am still unraveling. But I am feeling better and better about the book. The info is there Rots, it's just, admittedly as usual for Bakker, totally obfuscated.
Looking back at the entire text- (remember that he originally planned to publish the last two books as one book), I feel like it's more coherent than at first read. I agree with you and others that a stronger editor would have added to the final product.
That being said, Bakker has, in my mind, created, and continues to create, something which stands on its own- it is terrifying, utterly unique, and awe inspiring.

Edit- did I mention that i am impressed with anyone who can write a novel- much less suspend this much disbelief over 7 books? Whilst I can barely manage to yoke the legion within to express my meaning clearly in a sentence...
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: panorama on July 28, 2017, 06:10:48 am
I worry for Bakker's future publications .

Me too. What about the critics' reviews?
Personally, I'd like to return my copy and get my money back because I feel like I've been ripped off and the author is giving a big middle finger to the reader.

Barring that, I'll just have to settle for reviewing it on Goodreads, Amazon, Barnes & Noble, etc. so that there are sufficient buyer-beware warnings out there. Probably referencing the scene where a little boy is murdered while crying out for his mommy will be sufficient warning about what this book is like. Or maybe referencing one of the many, many scenes of gang rape or necrophilia.
 
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: Rots on July 28, 2017, 06:50:29 am
Also, did i miss anything re: the Nail of Heaven or is that left untouched also?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: CondYoke on July 28, 2017, 06:56:42 am
Haha.. "this book is not for everyone..." I've tried to get people to read one of them- that's tough enough. And yet, you read it. So it's there. In your head. And just so you know, you (and I'd I've been right beside, goading you) would have joined right in with Proyas and the rest of the damned. And that's, ultimately, the point.
We are all of us, deceived.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: TLEILAXU on July 28, 2017, 09:41:34 am
Quote from:  Tleilaxu
I strongly disagree. In a universe with objective morality and hungry Gods, technology is the only thing that can save mankind. Even Kellhus knows such. The fact that the creators of this technology are horrid immoral creatures doesn't help though.
As for the series, I think TUC is a perfectly fine place to end, although we do indeed need at least a big AMA on Reddit or something to clear up questions and confusions. The ending is beautiful and un-expected. One of my favorite characters, despite his spare appearance, was Shaeönanra, so there was some disappointment upon learning he was dead, but overall the twist made up for it.
I also liked how the ending was left open for future installments. Just a good place to end overall.

Uhhh, buddy, technology (Tekne) is what is causing the world to end. I.E., the No-God and all its weapon races. Not to mention what technology did to the Progenitors to make them want to reach Godhood. I think you got it backwards there, but thats just my opinion.
You'd rather have humans spend eternity in Hell than having the world shut to the Outside?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: Wilshire on July 28, 2017, 12:25:30 pm
I worry for Bakker's future publications .

Me too. What about the critics' reviews?
Yeah that doesn't worry me. Plenty of people here and elsewhere will be pissed off, but that's no different then every book so far. I'd rather that, than Bakker changing the story to pander to the lowest common denominator. He's the best writer I have ever read, but the story is (purposefully) difficult. If its ever a commercial success, it wont be any time soon - but that's probably a discussion for another time.

I worry for Bakker's future publications .

Me too. What about the critics' reviews?
...

Its cute, what you're doing here. Seeding buzz words so that maybe that's what will drive hits in google searches. Please, go on your crusade, I hope you feel it makes things better for you.

But take this as friendly warning. You are responsible for your actions here. Dissent as you will, but do not be purposefully inflammatory. Yes, that includes needlessly seeding comments for google hits. 

Also, did i miss anything re: the Nail of Heaven or is that left untouched also?

There's a History of Earwa (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=1816.msg33665#msg33665) done by Wert in collaboration with Bakker does mention it briefly. But yes, you are correct that its largely left untouched - little more than a star in the sky.

... And that's, ultimately, the point.

This is an interesting subject for me. I'm not sure I'm clear on exactly Bakker was/is driving at with TSA, but I do think that this touches on something of the theme - how easy it is for our heuristic minds to be manipulated and how difficult it is to see and to change once we've adopted that manipulation as our own. Definitely curious that Bakker has said he had to re-write much of PoN because beta readers were so sympathetic towards Kellhus. I feel Proyas is largely filling this role again in TAE, Kellhus telling us fairly directly he's an evil jackass - yet its impossible for many to even entertain the notion as possible let alone plausible.

In that regard, I believe Bakker may have been done his job too well. He created something that was so grievously offensive to people so as to blind them entirely of the greater ideas held within. Perhaps TSTSNBN will provide some sunglasses  8)
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: Dunkelheit on July 28, 2017, 12:57:46 pm
I couldn't disagree more. The world ends so nothing matters? You could make the case that the events in the books matter precisely because they bring about the end of the world, but that is kind of beside the point. To me it wouldn't matter more if everyone ended up living happily ever after like in the Lord of the Rings. Its a fantasy world, its not real, it doesn't matter what happens to it either way. What matters is what happens to the person reading the books. To me it was an extremely interesting exploration of different philosophies as well as psychology, and it has definitely changed the way I think about things.

And I don't accept that every story with an unhappy ending is bad or pointless story. In many cases I would say shoehorning in a happy ending were it doesn't belong at least partially ruins the story rather than add to it. F.ex. in Harry Potter they had been hinting at Harry being a horcrux and the story therefore has to end with his death. But instead J. K. lives up to her name and inserts three super powerful magical objects that no one has ever heard of before just to fucking bring him back from the dead. That's bullshit and I'm super glad Bakker didn't do something like that. There are also plenty of american films that has destroyed the entire point of the film forcing the happy ending, f.ex. Limitless and I am Legend.

As Kellhus explains the fact that the gods can't see the No-God means the Consult at some point has to win. Hence the Consult wins. If you through that out the whole story from the first apocalypse and onwards makes no sense.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: H on July 28, 2017, 01:10:08 pm
As Kellhus explains the fact that the gods can't see the No-God means the Consult at some point has to win. Hence the Consult wins. If you through that out the whole story from the first apocalypse and onwards makes no sense.

I'm unclear what you mean here.  You are saying that since the gods can't see the No-God the whole story doesn't make sense?

I'm with you on the "happy ending" part though.  Anna Karenina certainly doesn't have a happy ending, did not conform to my expectation (yeah, I managed t o have never been spoiled on it), and is still is one of the best books I've ever read, probably in large part because of how it ended.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: generalguy on July 28, 2017, 01:33:44 pm
Just finished the book. Ive been in self imposed exile from the boards for weeks. I must say.. meh. For the record i am 100% fine with the world ending and Mog running rampant. However, ~40% of the book devoted to agongorea? Come the hell on. Yes, we get it. Men = sranc. that is obvious to any casual study of man and history. I dont think we needed hundreds of pages of that.

I feel shortchanged. The Ark, the golden Ark, the inchies, Shae, where were the massive dumps of info? Keep in mind i literally just finished the book and have not read the appendices yet. But yeah..40% to the obvious and well worn tracks of the inhumanity of man was way too much.

Also, the editing was bad. Bad enough to take me out of the story. There were a lot of verb tense mistakes, repetitive descriptors in back to back to back sentences, etc.

Im looking forward to reading the thoughts of those that see deeper than i..but overall color me underwhelmed.

Bingo

Less leper licking more of the good stuff

Of course a half competent editor would have said the same


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: Dunkelheit on July 28, 2017, 01:43:05 pm
I'm glad you agree on the ending part, H.

I'm not an expert on how this world works, but according to Kellhus explanation the gods can't see the No-God or the Consult is because they cause the closing of the world from the Outside. So if the Great Ordeal succeed in stopping the Consult then the gods should be able to see the Consult. But they don't, so the Great Ordeal must fail. This is super circular and I'm not completely clear on the mechanics behind it, but it seems like the Consult were gonna end up winning from the start. Or maybe I misread something.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: MSJ on July 28, 2017, 01:51:20 pm
The Gods could never see the No-God, because it is not a part of the world. They cant see him now, they couldnt during The First Apocalypse.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: H on July 28, 2017, 01:55:30 pm
I'm glad you agree on the ending part, H.

I'm not an expert on how this world works, but according to Kellhus explanation the gods can't see the No-God or the Consult is because they cause the closing of the world from the Outside. So if the Great Ordeal succeed in stopping the Consult then the gods should be able to see the Consult. But they don't, so the Great Ordeal must fail. This is super circular and I'm not completely clear on the mechanics behind it, but it seems like the Consult were gonna end up winning from the start. Or maybe I misread something.

Well, I don't think anyone besides Bakker is clear on how causality really works on Eärwa.  Perhaps maybe not even him.

My best guess about the fact that the Consult would "always" win is that, as the Dûnyain sort of "prove" the logical step to take, in light of facing damnation, is the cut off the soul.  In this sense, the world will always conspire at odds with the Outside.  But the Outside will also strive to not be so cut off from their sustenance, but since they can't see the No-God, how could they ever stop it?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: MSJ on July 28, 2017, 02:43:57 pm
Quote from:  tleilaxu
You'd rather have humans spend eternity in Hell than having the world shut to the Outside?

One, we have no idea what Kellhus's true goals were. But, he did state that it was to the Consult and prevent the rise of the No-God.

And, technology (Tekne, No-God) is trying to reduce the population of Earwa to 144,000. While destroying everything in the whirlwnds path and the those lucky 144,000? Well, theyll probably get to be sex puppets for Sranc and the rest of the Consult Weapons Races. So, technology will reduce this planet to nothing, nothing at all for mankind that is. So, how exacrly is technology good in this instance?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: TLEILAXU on July 28, 2017, 03:03:44 pm
Quote from:  tleilaxu
You'd rather have humans spend eternity in Hell than having the world shut to the Outside?

One, we have no idea what Kellhus's true goals were. But, he did state that it was to the Consult and prevent the rise of the No-God.
Maybe not, but it's pretty clear what would've happened had the Great Ordeal succeeded. Ajokli and his angels casting the world into a new age of untold suffering. Even if we disregard all this, humanity is still at the mercy of angry Gods. Remember that there's objective morality in this world. You can be damned for following scripture that just happens to not be in complete accordance with the Gods' wills.

And, technology (Tekne, No-God) is trying to reduce the population of Earwa to 144,000. While destroying everything in the whirlwnds path and the those lucky 144,000? Well, theyll probably get to be sex puppets for Sranc and the rest of the Consult Weapons Races. So, technology will reduce this planet to nothing, nothing at all for mankind that is. So, how exacrly is technology good in this instance?
That's just an assumption. There's no reason why the 144,000 remaining souls can't repopulate eventually.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: MSJ on July 28, 2017, 03:11:49 pm
Tleilaxu, I'll give in on the first, if that was really Kellhus's plan. Mind you, im of the opinion he tricked the Trickster and is waging war on the Outside to stop damnation. No 100, no one to munch your souls.

But, technology is still being used to destroy a planet. I dont see how this in anyway can be looked at as a good thing. Remember, Earwa is just a continent. There are 2 more that we kbow of and might be more across the great sea. So, the No-God destroys EVERYONE on Earwa and the Outside is still not shut, what then? Move on to Eanna, and kill everyone there and still.....not shut. When does it end? What would be left?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: Wilshire on July 28, 2017, 04:12:57 pm
I couldn't disagree more. The world ends so nothing matters? You could make the case that the events in the books matter precisely because they bring about the end of the world, but that is kind of beside the point. To me it wouldn't matter more if everyone ended up living happily ever after like in the Lord of the Rings. Its a fantasy world, its not real, it doesn't matter what happens to it either way. What matters is what happens to the person reading the books. To me it was an extremely interesting exploration of different philosophies as well as psychology, and it has definitely changed the way I think about things.

And I don't accept that every story with an unhappy ending is bad or pointless story. In many cases I would say shoehorning in a happy ending were it doesn't belong at least partially ruins the story rather than add to it. F.ex. in Harry Potter they had been hinting at Harry being a horcrux and the story therefore has to end with his death. But instead J. K. lives up to her name and inserts three super powerful magical objects that no one has ever heard of before just to fucking bring him back from the dead. That's bullshit and I'm super glad Bakker didn't do something like that. There are also plenty of american films that has destroyed the entire point of the film forcing the happy ending, f.ex. Limitless and I am Legend.

As Kellhus explains the fact that the gods can't see the No-God means the Consult at some point has to win. Hence the Consult wins. If you through that out the whole story from the first apocalypse and onwards makes no sense.

Love this. Very much articulating what I haven't yet.

Also I feel like I'm the only person in the world that feels that way about HP and the ending lol, glad to find another ;)
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: H on July 28, 2017, 04:41:24 pm
Love this. Very much articulating what I haven't yet.

Also I feel like I'm the only person in the world that feels that way about HP and the ending lol, glad to find another ;)

Now I am doubly glad I never read that...
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: TLEILAXU on July 28, 2017, 05:15:45 pm
Tleilaxu, I'll give in on the first, if that was really Kellhus's plan. Mind you, im of the opinion he tricked the Trickster and is waging war on the Outside to stop damnation. No 100, no one to munch your souls.

But, technology is still being used to destroy a planet. I dont see how this in anyway can be looked at as a good thing. Remember, Earwa is just a continent. There are 2 more that we kbow of and might be more across the great sea. So, the No-God destroys EVERYONE on Earwa and the Outside is still not shut, what then? Move on to Eanna, and kill everyone there and still.....not shut. When does it end? What would be left?
It's not a good thing, but that's the thing. Humanity is kinda fucked either way. Either live as slaves to hungry Gods forever or face nigh extermination and horror at the hands of the No-God to close the Outside. But overall, the latter is the lesser evil, especially in the context of TUC where the other option was Ajokli reigning on Eärwa. Despite the villains being "not good", the end result is good. Unless you want to live in a world with Gods of course.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: MSJ on July 28, 2017, 05:33:01 pm
Quote from: Tleilaxu
It's not a good thing, but that's the thing. Humanity is kinda fucked either way. Either live as slaves to hungry Gods forever or face nigh extermination and horror at the hands of the No-God to close the Outside. But overall, the latter is the lesser evil, especially in the context of TUC where the other option was Ajokli reigning on Eärwa. Despite the villains being "not good", the end result is good. Unless you want to live in a world with Gods of course.

Ahh, but your assuming its over and thats the only two options. As i said in other threads, Kellhus came to believe in humans. I think he tricked Ajokli, knowing Ajokli nature and there is textual evidence inthe books (see Cnauir and whirlwind).  What if Kellhus is warring on the Outside to defeat the 100 and thus changing the nature of damnation, no big bad gods to munch on your souls. And, has faith that humanity can and will overcome the No-God. As CondYoke pointed out if the Gods can see all of time then if the world was ever shut, they couldnt see anything...ever. Meaning that somehow, someway humanity will defeat the No-God. Anyhow, your acting as if the story is complete and its not. There is still more to come.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: Madness on July 28, 2017, 07:58:40 pm
I've mentioned to others but Bakker is well-aware of his loose ends, whichever he brings more life to later. But again I think distinguishing the narrative arcs of TAE as one book from the loose seeds will go a long way towards appreciating TAE as its own story.

I appreciate TAE for what it is, absolutely. However, I can't ignore that major series-spanning questions are still unanswered and may forever go unanswered. That is the source of my disappointment more than anything.

I get it. But every reader has different expectations on what counts. I'm curious to see how this book ages with the audience.

Just finished the book. Ive been in self imposed exile from the boards for weeks. I must say.. meh. For the record i am 100% fine with the world ending and Mog running rampant. However, ~40% of the book devoted to agongorea? Come the hell on. Yes, we get it. Men = sranc. that is obvious to any casual study of man and history. I dont think we needed hundreds of pages of that.

...

Also, the editing was bad. Bad enough to take me out of the story. There were a lot of verb tense mistakes, repetitive descriptors in back to back to back sentences, etc.

Welcome back, Rots.

On the former part, as Wilshire mentioned in another thread, half the book is decidedly not about the Ordeal Sranc-ifying. There are two chapters, the second of which was heavily cut on the recommendation of one of Bakker's long-time beta readers. Two of twenty chapters. It's an example of the availability heurisitic at work.

I suspect, given the data, that we could probably map how desensitized readers are or aren't based on how much they fixate on these two chapters as being representative of the whole book.

On the latter, the editing of TGO and TUC by Overlook has been atrocious. I've been comparing the notes I sent to Bakker regarding the draft while I've been reading the canon artifact and, as with TGO, none of the mundane errors I caught then were fixed...

I'm on Chapter Four when I pick it up today again but I suspect all the errors are still there.

I worry for Bakker's future publications .

Me too. What about the critics' reviews?
Personally, I'd like to return my copy and get my money back because I feel like I've been ripped off and the author is giving a big middle finger to the reader.

Barring that, I'll just have to settle for reviewing it on Goodreads, Amazon, Barnes & Noble, etc. so that there are sufficient buyer-beware warnings out there. Probably referencing the scene where a little boy is murdered while crying out for his mommy will be sufficient warning about what this book is like. Or maybe referencing one of the many, many scenes of gang rape or necrophilia.

Evangelize as you prefer. But I'll repeat Wilshire's warning, being purposefully inflammatory won't be tolerated and don't be surprised when members want to challenge your thoughts and interpretations.

Bingo

Less leper licking more of the good stuff

Of course a half competent editor would have said the same

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

There is one line regarding licking cancerous sores?

Once again, Overlook doesn't seem to assign their competent editors to Bakker.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: TLEILAXU on July 28, 2017, 08:08:06 pm
Quote from: Tleilaxu
It's not a good thing, but that's the thing. Humanity is kinda fucked either way. Either live as slaves to hungry Gods forever or face nigh extermination and horror at the hands of the No-God to close the Outside. But overall, the latter is the lesser evil, especially in the context of TUC where the other option was Ajokli reigning on Eärwa. Despite the villains being "not good", the end result is good. Unless you want to live in a world with Gods of course.

Ahh, but your assuming its over and thats the only two options. As i said in other threads, Kellhus came to believe in humans. I think he tricked Ajokli, knowing Ajokli nature and there is textual evidence inthe books (see Cnauir and whirlwind).  What if Kellhus is warring on the Outside to defeat the 100 and thus changing the nature of damnation, no big bad gods to munch on your souls. And, has faith that humanity can and will overcome the No-God. As CondYoke pointed out if the Gods can see all of time then if the world was ever shut, they couldnt see anything...ever. Meaning that somehow, someway humanity will defeat the No-God. Anyhow, your acting as if the story is complete and its not. There is still more to come.
I see. That's where we disagree then. The way I see it,  Kellhus was very much in league with Ajokli e.g. "struck a treaty with the Pit", "his siblings are hunting him, he thinks he can hide here" etc. Kellhus wanted infinite power for himself through Ajokli, that is his madness and his path to the absolute. The thing about the Gods seeing is a good point, but Kellhus also says something that they are re-writing the Gods in Golgotterath, that the assassins sent that were doomed to succeed from the beginning become  doomed to fail etc. It's kinda confusing. I don't think the story is complete, but I don't think that the No-God is going to be defeated either.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: TheCulminatingApe on July 28, 2017, 09:49:12 pm
This last book felt a little dissatisfying (taken on it's own) but if you combine it with TGO and read both directly after one another it is a fantastic read.

Both would benefit from better editing IMHO.

Either Kellhus Tricked the Trickster and will aid humanity through the Outside or it will be a tale of human perseverance. And, i think the latter is much more probable.

Could well be both.  It's by no means clear what Kellhus was up to, and whether he won or lost.  Humanity is definitely up against it with the No-God on the loose - but we know it can be defeated.

Do remember, Bakker is a teacher and teachers like to teach.

I think we went to different schools, MSJ ;)

I was loving the first half of the book, but as soon as the attack on the Ark begins, I was feeling a bit let down. I was expecting more of a look into the Ark and Golgotterath itself, more of what the stories and Akka's Dreams had made me envision. We didn't really get any of that; just a lot of fighting outside of it and a look into the Golden Room.

I felt the opposite.  The first half dragged and dragged.  But once the attack began things got much better.  The equivalent some of the really great battle scenes from PON.  It wasn't perfect though. I'd definitely have liked to see more inside the Ark, and what sort of things were going on there.  Serwa and the dragon was fairly bizarre, in a way that jarred. 

Also, High Cwol is a fucking awful name for anything

I think you're going to get this opinion from most people who aren't aware that a third series might be written (Just take a look at the Goodreads reviews- they read much like OP's post and don't seem to know there is a planned third series).

I think if Bakker were to come out and say, "Yes there will definitely be a third series", I would feel better about it. As it stands, I liked the book a lot, but I have very mixed feelings about the ending.

I'd always assumed the third series would get written

I've posted on this before and explained that I'm a huge fan of this series but I'm also disappointed in the ending.  It's not so much the end goal of inverting the standard fantasy trope where the over-matched heroes find some miraculous way to save the world but rather the opaque narrative.  I wanted to feel the full force of the world ending and the failure of what may have been the world's last best chance at survival but instead all I felt was a burning desire to read and reread the last chapter to figure out what the hell actually occurred.  I've read it again and again and I still can't make heads or tails of it.  And the real kicker is, neither can anyone else!  Beyond strange theories and wild speculations, nobody can say with any degree of certainty just what happened, never mind discussing the why things happened the way they did.   

I can't imagine Bakker's intention to wrap up this opus was to leave everyone completely confused but as his prose improved from book to book his narrative clarity got worse and worse.   I've said it before and I'll say it again, the whole Aspect Emperor series after the Judging Eye could have benefited greatly from a strong editor.     

This pretty much sums up my thoughts on the book.  The points above narrative clarity and about the need for a strong editor are spot on.

Some of the plotlines have (for me) little sense without a continuation.
For example, Achamian&Mimara: what will be the point of travelling all through Earwa, endure Cil-Aujas, the Mop, a dragon, Ishual, etc, and then arrive to the Great Ordeal and don't use the fucking Judging Eye, share at most some pathetic words with Kellhus (sparing him useful information about Cnaiur, Ishual... and not really confronting him) and don't do a fucking thing in the great battle of their time???

We get day-to-day experience of a Nonman Erratic, we find out Ishual has been destroyed by the Consult, we get a POV from a Dunyain who is then exposed to the Judging Eye, and we get a baby pumped full of qirri in the womb, who may or may not be a receptacle for the soul of Kellhus.  You're right about the reunion with Kellhus though

Not to mention all ensouled creatures across Earwa can perceive the No-God. Whatever his reasons, the Aspect-Emperor spoke true and wasn't warring across the wastes of Earwa against a myth.
Ahh, but your assuming its over and thats the only two options. As i said in other threads, Kellhus came to believe in humans. I think he tricked Ajokli, knowing Ajokli nature and there is textual evidence inthe books (see Cnauir and whirlwind).  What if Kellhus is warring on the Outside to defeat the 100 and thus changing the nature of damnation, no big bad gods to munch on your souls. And, has faith that humanity can and will overcome the No-God. As CondYoke pointed out if the Gods can see all of time then if the world was ever shut, they couldnt see anything...ever. Meaning that somehow, someway humanity will defeat the No-God. Anyhow, your acting as if the story is complete and its not. There is still more to come.

And now they believe.  They should have no doubts whatsoever that the No-God is real and must be stopped.  They may even start worshiping Kellhus as some kind of martyred god- which could possibly be part of his plan all along.  There is definitely more story to be told.

I couldn't disagree more. The world ends so nothing matters? You could make the case that the events in the books matter precisely because they bring about the end of the world, but that is kind of beside the point. To me it wouldn't matter more if everyone ended up living happily ever after like in the Lord of the Rings. Its a fantasy world, its not real, it doesn't matter what happens to it either way. What matters is what happens to the person reading the books. To me it was an extremely interesting exploration of different philosophies as well as psychology, and it has definitely changed the way I think about things.

I'm pretty sure I've seen an interview with Bakker where he says he wanted to write about what it would be like to live in a world with an end point.  I reckon is how that end point comes about that is important.  If damnation is ended by butchering the population to such a degree that only 144,000 people are left alive, then I don't see that as a satisfactory resolution, and I'd suggest there may be other ways to achieve the same result that will come to light in the third series.

I agree about the philosophy and psychology.  Educational, and in a generally entertaining and engaging way.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: Woden on July 28, 2017, 10:10:56 pm

Some of the plotlines have (for me) little sense without a continuation.
For example, Achamian&Mimara: what will be the point of travelling all through Earwa, endure Cil-Aujas, the Mop, a dragon, Ishual, etc, and then arrive to the Great Ordeal and don't use the fucking Judging Eye, share at most some pathetic words with Kellhus (sparing him useful information about Cnaiur, Ishual... and not really confronting him) and don't do a fucking thing in the great battle of their time???

We get day-to-day experience of a Nonman Erratic, we find out Ishual has been destroyed by the Consult, we get a POV from a Dunyain who is then exposed to the Judging Eye, and we get a baby pumped full of qirri in the womb, who may or may not be a receptacle for the soul of Kellhus.  You're right about the reunion with Kellhus though

Yes, I love their travel and all the marvels they experienced but I hoped some kind of epic conclusion when they reached their destination near Golgoterath.
Maybe the point of that plotline was mainly the travel, as in the Ithaka poem of C. Cavafy, but I always expect that Ulysses take his revenge when reaches Ithaka, not just babble some pathetic words with their enemies, the very ones that want to fuck his wife and take his kingdom, and then go away with the tail between his legs.

But now Bakker has spoken and confirmed that we will have more qirri, yeah, more books, so I'm so fucking relieved that nothing can bother me.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: Francis Buck's Crush on July 28, 2017, 11:16:49 pm
I worry for Bakker's future publications .

Me too. What about the critics' reviews?
Personally, I'd like to return my copy and get my money back because I feel like I've been ripped off and the author is giving a big middle finger to the reader.

Barring that, I'll just have to settle for reviewing it on Goodreads, Amazon, Barnes & Noble, etc. so that there are sufficient buyer-beware warnings out there. Probably referencing the scene where a little boy is murdered while crying out for his mommy will be sufficient warning about what this book is like. Or maybe referencing one of the many, many scenes of gang rape or necrophilia.
.....
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: TLEILAXU on July 29, 2017, 12:42:42 am
I worry for Bakker's future publications .

Me too. What about the critics' reviews?
Personally, I'd like to return my copy and get my money back because I feel like I've been ripped off and the author is giving a big middle finger to the reader.

Barring that, I'll just have to settle for reviewing it on Goodreads, Amazon, Barnes & Noble, etc. so that there are sufficient buyer-beware warnings out there. Probably referencing the scene where a little boy is murdered while crying out for his mommy will be sufficient warning about what this book is like. Or maybe referencing one of the many, many scenes of gang rape or necrophilia.
.....
Wow, that's just blatant trolling. You don't read 7 books of The Second Apocalypse only to be offended by rape or child abuse at the very last one. I say circumfix the guy!
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: Madness on July 29, 2017, 02:04:21 am
There'll be no circumfixing of anyone, thank you very much.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: themerchant on July 29, 2017, 02:05:27 am
I worry for Bakker's future publications .

Me too. What about the critics' reviews?
Personally, I'd like to return my copy and get my money back because I feel like I've been ripped off and the author is giving a big middle finger to the reader.

Barring that, I'll just have to settle for reviewing it on Goodreads, Amazon, Barnes & Noble, etc. so that there are sufficient buyer-beware warnings out there. Probably referencing the scene where a little boy is murdered while crying out for his mommy will be sufficient warning about what this book is like. Or maybe referencing one of the many, many scenes of gang rape or necrophilia.
 


Wow the book really got into you. My reaction was far less intense ,I had to get peer-pressured for a week into writing one review, but on the positive end of the scale.

Just put the epilogue from The Warrior Prophet in your review, that's the sort of shit you only read once.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: themerchant on July 29, 2017, 02:06:07 am
There'll be no circumfixing of anyone, thank you very much.

But i went and got my pitchfork
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: CondYoke on July 29, 2017, 03:06:20 am
There'll be no circumfixing of anyone, thank you very much.

But i went and got my pitchfork
Circumfixtion for one who isn't Zaudunyani?
We don't harvest the meat with pitchforks, now do we? Well,maybe it is a useful tool for stacking...
 I think Bakker's got humanity pegged.

Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: codebread on July 29, 2017, 04:00:38 am
But now Bakker has spoken and confirmed that we will have more qirri, yeah, more books, so I'm so fucking relieved that nothing can bother me.

Whoa, did I miss something? I saw the Q&A thread, but the only thing I saw him mention was that the series has a lot going against it commercially. That and a few bits and pieces about the new series, but no confirmation that they would absolutely happen.

Tell me I missed something!
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: CondYoke on July 29, 2017, 05:15:23 am
But now Bakker has spoken and confirmed that we will have more qirri, yeah, more books, so I'm so fucking relieved that nothing can bother me.

Whoa, did I miss something? I saw the Q&A thread, but the only thing I saw him mention was that the series has a lot going against it commercially. That and a few bits and pieces about the new series, but no confirmation that they would absolutely happen.

Tell me I missed something!

Just that he's writing it.-
 "I have scads of snippets centering mostly on individual characters, but I still have a huge amount of decisions to make."(don't know how to link it.)
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: Nil Sertrax on July 29, 2017, 01:16:15 pm
I believe that the lack of commercial appeal was regarding a film or television option for the books.  The way I read it is that the No-God series is confirmed. If his publisher declines I will personally start a Kick-Starter to fund the self publication of the books!
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: Madness on July 29, 2017, 01:54:43 pm
There'll be no circumfixing of anyone, thank you very much.

But i went and got my pitchfork
Circumfixtion for one who isn't Zaudunyani?
We don't harvest the meat with pitchforks, now do we? Well,maybe it is a useful tool for stacking...
 I think Bakker's got humanity pegged.

Stow it, you two ;).

Everyone is allowed to express their opinion here. What we aren't going to do, collectively, is allow opinions worth challenging go unchallenged. But there's a wide mile between conversing and curcumfixing.

I believe that the lack of commercial appeal was regarding a film or television option for the books.  The way I read it is that the No-God series is confirmed. If his publisher declines I will personally start a Kick-Starter to fund the self publication of the books!

I imagine he's going to be fairly infrequent about answering but did anyone ask him about what happened to the TV rights being optioned as far back as last August?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: Francis Buck's Crush on July 29, 2017, 03:45:44 pm
There'll be no circumfixing of anyone, thank you very much.

But i went and got my pitchfork
Circumfixtion for one who isn't Zaudunyani?
We don't harvest the meat with pitchforks, now do we? Well,maybe it is a useful tool for stacking...
 I think Bakker's got humanity pegged.

Stow it, you two ;).

Everyone is allowed to express their opinion here. What we aren't going to do, collectively, is allow opinions worth challenging go unchallenged. But there's a wide mile between conversing and curcumfixing.

I believe that the lack of commercial appeal was regarding a film or television option for the books.  The way I read it is that the No-God series is confirmed. If his publisher declines I will personally start a Kick-Starter to fund the self publication of the books!

I imagine he's going to be fairly infrequent about answering but did anyone ask him about what happened to the TV rights being optioned as far back as last August?
Circumfix Madness too for defending blasphemy.
Good question that, will ask it in the AMA because....cause...... :'(  :'(  :'(
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: themerchant on July 29, 2017, 05:16:34 pm
I was just joking about a pitchfork.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: CondYoke on July 29, 2017, 05:27:37 pm
There'll be no circumfixing of anyone, thank you very much.

But i went and got my pitchfork
Circumfixtion for one who isn't Zaudunyani?
We don't harvest the meat with pitchforks, now do we? Well,maybe it is a useful tool for stacking...
 I think Bakker's got humanity pegged.

Stow it, you two ;).

Everyone is allowed to express their opinion here. What we aren't going to do, collectively, is allow opinions worth challenging go unchallenged. But there's a wide mile between conversing and curcumfixing.

Haha, sorry madness, just trying to prove Bakker's point re: mob violence, online or otherwise. Just like when he waded into gamer gate and was attacked from both sides, here we are about to scourge a person who has read the books! And that's always my first goal. Read it. Then judge.

[EDIT Madness: Missing quote tag.]
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: Spooky on July 29, 2017, 10:16:27 pm



Also, the editing was bad. Bad enough to take me out of the story. There were a lot of verb tense mistakes, repetitive descriptors in back to back to back sentences, etc.

Welcome back, Rots.

On the former part, as Wilshire mentioned in another thread, half the book is decidedly not about the Ordeal Sranc-ifying. There are two chapters, the second of which was heavily cut on the recommendation of one of Bakker's long-time beta readers. Two of twenty chapters. It's an example of the availability heurisitic at work.

I suspect, given the data, that we could probably map how desensitized readers are or aren't based on how much they fixate on these two chapters as being representative of the whole book.

On the latter, the editing of TGO and TUC by Overlook has been atrocious. I've been comparing the notes I sent to Bakker regarding the draft while I've been reading the canon artifact and, as with TGO, none of the mundane errors I caught then were fixed...

I'm on Chapter Four when I pick it up today again but I suspect all the errors are still there.



I worry too. Observations about the exact amount of chapters spent dedicated to needless, lavishly detailed, debasement is an immaculate token of pedantry.

It was a mistake to include it in any significant length when core components of the story remain illusive and deeply unresolved. There was a period of debate, but now that the article is available on both sides of the pond we can safely move from the debate of whether or not it was a mistake and firmly embrace that it was an error and now opine just how grave of one.

Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: themerchant on July 29, 2017, 10:37:03 pm
Your mileage may vary and all that.

No ones going to waste time arguing subjective view points as objective truth. One mans meat another man's poison, blah di blah.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: obstinate on July 30, 2017, 12:04:16 pm
This ending was typical Bakker. None of his books, at least among the ones I've read, have unambiguously happy or unambiguously good endings. In fact, none end much better than this.

I do understand the desire to have things tied up neatly with a bow. I feel such urges myself. But Bakker doesn't seem to think much of people who can't do without clarity, at least if the chapter quotations and Achamian's words are any guide. This type of ending was telegraphed a long way off.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: Madness on July 30, 2017, 03:42:23 pm
Circumfix Madness too for defending blasphemy.

I will always facilitate dissent ;).

I was just joking about a pitchfork.

Haha, sorry madness, just trying to prove Bakker's point re: mob violence, online or otherwise. Just like when he waded into gamer gate and was attacked from both sides, here we are about to scourge a person who has read the books! And that's always my first goal. Read it. Then judge.

Lol. Thanks :P.

I worry too. Observations about the exact amount of chapters spent dedicated to needless, lavishly detailed, debasement is an immaculate token of pedantry.

It was a mistake to include it in any significant length when core components of the story remain illusive and deeply unresolved. There was a period of debate, but now that the article is available on both sides of the pond we can safely move from the debate of whether or not it was a mistake and firmly embrace that it was an error and now opine just how grave of one.

Your mileage may vary and all that.

But also interpretations by any one reader are flawed. The text makes more sense than the most inattentive and confused reader supposes and less sense than the most confident reader interprets.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: EdwardReynolds on August 08, 2017, 08:10:22 am
I couldn't disagree more. The world ends so nothing matters? You could make the case that the events in the books matter precisely because they bring about the end of the world, but that is kind of beside the point. To me it wouldn't matter more if everyone ended up living happily ever after like in the Lord of the Rings. Its a fantasy world, its not real, it doesn't matter what happens to it either way. What matters is what happens to the person reading the books. To me it was an extremely interesting exploration of different philosophies as well as psychology...
If I've given the impression I'm after a Disney hero win, that wasnt my intention. Oedipus' tale is an example of a non happy ending I enjoyed. I will hesitantly chuck The Walking Dead comics up as another example of non-Disney hero wins. Or any of Bakkers previous 6 books in the series, theyre grim but not as blunt as  "And so the Great Ordeal of Anisurimbor Kellhus ended in blood and butchery" or whatever the final sentence was.

The world hasnt ended in the Erawa universe at the end of TUC, it has just recycled. The only thing that immediately stands out as different this time is that the Scylvendi weren't directly involved in the final battle this time (bar as a vehicle for Kelmomas to get into the Ark via the-thing-that-is-Serwe)

The fact that there is an apparent third series does change the tone of things massively to be fair, during my original read I had no idea there would be books 8+ so it felt like a cheap inversion of a trope at the last second to cap a beautiful series. More books mean loose ends are not so poinless.

----------
Im being very black and white about this ... Its just an unsatisfying, cliche resumption of the status quo.

What am i missing here?

I don't get what you mean by "LOL bad guys win and all the good guys die LOLOL".... Can you explain a bit more what you mean?

Yeah if you could be more specific that would be quite helpful. Its really hard to address your question without any context.

What parts bothered you? What specifically was a let down? Who do you feel are the good guys, and for that matter, the bad guys, and which group do you believe won?

That generic 'critique', if you can call it that, can be applied to just about anything with only the slightest of adjustments....

So if you'd like to have a conversation about what you think, you're going to have to, well, let people know what you actually think, otherwise there's nothing here to discuss.
----------

Right fair points I suppose.
The context is this series of books, and the good/bad guys is shorthand for the groups any reader coming into this book would very quickly come to formulate. As stated in the OP for brevity I stripped my comment down to black/white and threw the philosophy aside.
 Sure Kellhus is theorised to be the bad guy - hes also explicitley stated by the author (possibly in the AMA post my OP) as having the goal of ending the Resumtion and Damnation of the human race.
Akka has the same base motivation as Kellhus, but based on the compultion of his dreams. His genuine love of Esmi, Inrau, Zin, Mim, his children/child et. al., to spare them the horror of Apocalypse and Damnation (he wont share the Gnosis with Mim) at the knowing expense of his own Damnation makes him a good guy. He sure does murder a witch for Schoolman duty, and countless other bad things.
Proyas, Saubon, Sorweel etc.


Essentially if someone has a POV, barring some small and brief exceptions, they are 'good'. Or use the razor of selfishness, the Consult is obessed with self preservation and all else be damned. They have never  even had the shield of the greater good rasied in their name, they just want to save themselves. Kosoter is a great example of this, he just doesnt want to go to hell and will do anything to avoid it.

If you wanted to argue the middle ground that there are no bad guys, this makes sense in the context of PoN as it is essentially just two religeons going head to head. Sure one side is being manipulated by my proposed 'bad' guys, and their belief system is also predicated on writings likewise provided by the 'bad' guys - which is just another couple nails in the manipulation coffin. Men of the Tusk not only openly believe they are Good,  they are the easiest faction we the reader as a bunch of (im generalising) westerners living in societies based on Christain values can relate to.
Everyone thinks they themself is the good.

Perhaps I'm an ass, but having to explain who i mean by good/bad really feels like retreading ground. Especially for a comment that states it is stripping things down to the core. This world is painted in dark greys, has objective morality different to our own morality, has gods and demons that need to feed on human souls (presumptively to survive) but the basics of story tellings are still here.

Gods and the Consult might not be bad in the Chaotic-Evil DnD sense, but moraly to us as readers they are still designed to be repulsive.

Digression: I appreciate your moderation, have had a few hours trawling the forums today and i rarely see mods on forums that give a shit as much as you do, so for what its worth keep it up :) Madness is likewise doing a great job.
On the whole this place seems to be one of the least toxic places ive come accross...barring the start to my own thread haha!
----------
Also, did i miss anything re: the Nail of Heaven or is that left untouched also?

Huh, weird I'd always assumed the Nail to be the moon. Seems its just a bright star which may or may not be something more....
Is there any reference to a moon? Im sure there are some passages that happen at night under the light of the Nail being stronger sometimes then at others. Maybe I'm dreaming.

Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: Yellow on August 08, 2017, 09:37:03 am
Can't remember where it's stated, but the Nail only appeared in the sky shortly before Arkfall, the implication being that it's something to do with the Inchoroi.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: Zealously on August 08, 2017, 12:16:02 pm
Can't remember where it's stated, but the Nail only appeared in the sky shortly before Arkfall, the implication being that it's something to do with the Inchoroi.

See, I may be in the minority here, but this is the kind of unanswered question that I don't mind at all. The Nail of Heaven has never really held a prominent role in the story (although it has had its fair share of symbolic meaning - but then, in TSA, what hasn't?) and I am a proponent of the whole "Worldbuilding by omission"-theory. The more is revealed, the more is stripped away. It is not feasible, obviously, to keep everything in obscurity for the alluring sense of mystery, but it's a bit like the scalper's heart in Cil-Aujas (although I did betray myself and ask the man himself in his Reddit AMA) - it doesn't hurt to not know, but not knowing gives Eärwa another layer of reality. The idea that it has to do with the Inchoroi is exciting, and I hope it's never confirmed  ;D
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: Madness on August 09, 2017, 03:45:09 am
Digression: I appreciate your moderation, have had a few hours trawling the forums today and i rarely see mods on forums that give a shit as much as you do, so for what its worth keep it up :) Madness is likewise doing a great job.
On the whole this place seems to be one of the least toxic places ive come accross...barring the start to my own thread haha!

Aw, shucks :).

I will say, despite our unorthodox moderation, it's the people who make this place special.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: Wilshire on August 10, 2017, 05:28:21 pm
Sorry ER, I'm used to having a lot of context for what individuals around here think. We've been so small for so long that the handful that hang around have had time to get used to eachothers shorthand. Then overnight the forum went from 5-10 posts a day to 100+ with 10x the normal number of posters lol. I'm glad our flailing around trying to keep things reasonable didn't drive you off. Regarding 'for what its worth': its worth a lot. Thanks ;) .

And I appreciate you humoring my request for more information. Its endlessly fascinating to me the myriad interpretations of the books, even if I do get overly excited. More importantly though, there's very little consensus on what is 'obviously' going on within TSA, and I prefer not to push my assumptions onto other's words. Given that we're a few dozen posts in on this topic, I'm not sure what's left to discuss, but if something was missed, just bring it up again.

Also, did i miss anything re: the Nail of Heaven or is that left untouched also?

Huh, weird I'd always assumed the Nail to be the moon. Seems its just a bright star which may or may not be something more....
Is there any reference to a moon? Im sure there are some passages that happen at night under the light of the Nail being stronger sometimes then at others. Maybe I'm dreaming.

I don't know how many years and how many re-reads I went through before someone pointed out to me that the Nail wasn't the Moon.

There's a handful of references to the Moon, moonlight, etc., and even a few passages where the brightness of the Nail is directly contrasted with the Moon.

In the text, or specifically TUC, there is no further details about the Nail. However, in the Bakker sanctioned "History of Earwa" from Wert a la Wertzone, there is a brief mention that the Nail appears shortly (a few year?) prior to Arkfall, and that it actually appears to 'shoot' a deathstarian beam at the ground just before the Ark explodes into Agongorea
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: H on August 10, 2017, 05:43:24 pm
In the text, or specifically TUC, there is no further details about the Nail. However, in the Bakker sanctioned "History of Earwa" from Wert a la Wertzone, there is a brief mention that the Nail appears shortly (a few year?) prior to Arkfall, and that it actually appears to 'shoot' a deathstarian beam at the ground just before the Ark explodes into Agongorea

Maybe I am missing that part, but all it said was that three years before Arkfall the "star's" intensity waxed and then waned.

Three years later the Ark "landed."

TGO told us there was an explosion before the landing.  And TUC told us what that explosion was.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: Wilshire on August 10, 2017, 05:56:29 pm
Alright, well I got it half right ;) Thanks H.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: Yellow on August 10, 2017, 07:22:59 pm
The waxing and waning makes it sound like a nova or something. Maybe the Inchoroi did something to the star? That's assuming they're literally going from one star system to the next, wiping out life in one giant daisy chain. I doubt we'll ever really know.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: Madness on August 11, 2017, 12:20:32 pm
Sorry ER, I'm used to having a lot of context for what individuals around here think. We've been so small for so long that the handful that hang around have had time to get used to eachothers shorthand. Then overnight the forum went from 5-10 posts a day to 100+ with 10x the normal number of posters lol. I'm glad our flailing around trying to keep things reasonable didn't drive you off. Regarding 'for what its worth': its worth a lot. Thanks ;) .

+1
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: gtownwr on August 13, 2017, 03:53:43 am
Having said it in other places, I'll be brief. I agree with the "What the hell?" sentiment for TUC's end overall. I was loving the first half of the book, but as soon as the attack on the Ark begins, I was feeling a bit let down. I was expecting more of a look into the Ark and Golgotterath itself, more of what the stories and Akka's Dreams had made me envision. We didn't really get any of that; just a lot of fighting outside of it and a look into the Golden Room.

Many of the plotlines that were set up aren't concluded (Crabicus, Ciphrang Assassin, Meppa, to name a few off the top of my head), and that's without acknowledging that the book creates a huge amount of questions at the end without explaining any of them. I think the ending would have felt more satisfying if it all hadn't happened so fast. However, right as you're expecting to get all of the answers, the entire plot turns on its head and the book ends.

Now, I love the way the story concludes by itself. The last line gives me chills. I think ending the story on disaster like this is awesome. I just wish that it had felt more coherent and less rushed. Keeping in mind that this is the conclusion to a series of books, I feel a bit cheated. I think you're going to get this opinion from most people who aren't aware that a third series might be written (Just take a look at the Goodreads reviews- they read much like OP's post and don't seem to know there is a planned third series).

I think if Bakker were to come out and say, "Yes there will definitely be a third series", I would feel better about it. As it stands, I liked the book a lot, but I have very mixed feelings about the ending.

THIS.  Are Akka and his ladies alive?  Is Kayutas alive?  With no Chorae in the Carapace, why didn't they just sorcery it down?  What's going on with Malowebi's body?  What about crab hand, and Meppa?  What about the light spear?  Its down there at the base of the horn somewhere.  There were just WAY too many loose ends for me to feel satisfaction finishing the series.  If there is more, then I'm ok with the loose ends, but if not...  I would be very sad, because this has been by far my favorite book series I have ever read and this kind of anti-climactic, quick ending would be a great disappointment to me as a reader.  Even though I was a staunch Khellus supporter, I even ok with him having died because of a miscalculation (although I hope he is still working from the Outside and that it was his plan all along to eventually be working exclusively from the Outside).  But I feel no CLOSURE.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: Francis Buck on August 13, 2017, 06:36:23 pm
Regarding the Nail of Heaven, I have inclinations of varying degrees that it is analogous to historical cosmological notions of the "Central Fire", in addition to being (at the very least) a reference to the Secret Fire of Tolkien' Legendarium.

I have better links describing this idea tucked away somewhere, but one can gloss over Hermeticism in general to find some(?) of the ideas I'm referring to: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermeticism
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: Monkhound on August 13, 2017, 06:41:20 pm
From the very first mention in the book, I've always read the Nail of Heaven to be an equivalent of the Polestar/ Polaris, the way it's used in navigation.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: Woden on August 13, 2017, 06:48:40 pm
From the very first mention in the book, I've always read the Nail of Heaven to be an equivalent of the Polestar/ Polaris, the way it's used in navigation.

Yes, but the variation of its light intensity before the crush of the Ark implies some relation.

Is it a portal/wormhole? Is it an inchoroi spacial station?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: Cüréthañ on August 13, 2017, 08:17:53 pm
From the very first mention in the book, I've always read the Nail of Heaven to be an equivalent of the Polestar/ Polaris, the way it's used in navigation.

Yes, but the variation of its light intensity before the crush of the Ark implies some relation.

Is it a portal/wormhole? Is it an inchoroi spacial station?
I'm slowly becoming convinced that Earwan astrophysics are as different from our own as the metaphysics.

The speculation from Ajencis on the origin of the Ark really pushes this, because it reveals that there are no other visible celestial bodies in the sky besides the stars and moon. And yet, the Ark was damaged by the 'shoals'. Whatever they might be...
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: The Sharmat on August 15, 2017, 10:24:18 am
At least, there weren't any that Ajencis knew of when he wrote. It's also possible that Eärwa's star system just doesn't have that many planets. Personally I always felt that everything pointed to the universe outside of Eärwa's planet being much the same as ours.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: Cüréthañ on August 15, 2017, 12:00:29 pm
At least, there weren't any that Ajencis knew of when he wrote. It's also possible that Eärwa's star system just doesn't have that many planets. Personally I always felt that everything pointed to the universe outside of Eärwa's planet being much the same as ours.
He implies comparing different charts. Spotting planets is a pretty elementary part of astronomy.

Idk, physics works pretty differently on Earwa with dragons and shit. Maybe Bakker's universe has warps and spacewhales and planets-that-are-gods floating around in the void.

And then there's the question of where the nonmen really came from. I doubt it really affects anything plotwise anyway, just shading the margins, haha
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
Post by: SrancHammer on August 16, 2017, 03:44:09 pm
A decade of real life waiting and in the last 30 pages the author pissed the whole lot up the wall its just a generic "LOL bad guys win and all the good guys die LOLOL"

Im being very black and white about this but and stripping all the philosophy out to get to the root of the story, the whole exercise was pointless.
Nothing was resolved. Its just an unsatisfying, cliche resumption of the status quo.

7 book and 10 years can be boiled down to two words - dont matter
A beautifully complex world collapsing into a pile of "K Nope"

What am i missing here?

I see where this is coming from, I just this morning finished this amazing adventure and was left with a pit in my gut, even now I'm hiding in the bathroom at work, poring over this forum for clues, I must have missed something! But the more I think about it the more I enjoy the ending. So please bare with my rambling (and poor grammar ) for I'm not one for monologues...

I was blown away when the five dunyain we're reveled, I didn't see it coming. I was blown away when we learned what kellhus sees in the inverse fire. Blown away when the four horned brother is reveled. I was and still am colossally disappointed that that scene seemed to all come crashing down as soon as it began, kellhus turned to salt? Just like that? But then the no-god rises and with it my excitement, in the end I found myself more excited then before, with no kellhus to stop it who will? But then the book just ended. I was stunned again, I stared at the stack of remaining pages, appendix... at this point I had no clue that we may be getting a third series, I struggled to come to terms with all the open ends, but I think in the end while a bit anti climatic the ending serves its purpose. If this is it then it is a fitting end to the greatest adventure I've ever read and if not then the next chapter will be amazing I'm sure. It made me really think about the one character above all others that I truly think this story is about. Akka. I think we all see akka as the "main" character, we all love him, but I've always wanted it to be HIS story and I think in the end we got that. Here he stands, the broken, tired old wizard against the end of the world. He is seswatha reincarnated, in some ways I think he is so much more. If it stops here then I'm glad it closes with him, if it continues then I hope it continues to be the story of akka and the apocalypse


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