The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The Unholy Consult => Topic started by: panorama on July 26, 2017, 10:28:03 pm

Title: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: panorama on July 26, 2017, 10:28:03 pm
This is my first post and I didn't think it would be one where I vented my spleen considering I thought Bakker was one of the greatest writers of fantasy of all time. TUC dispelled that belief.

1) I never thought I would see a Deus Ex Machina (god in the machine) used by Bakker to conclude a book. There was literally a God (No-God) in the Machine (Carapace which was described by the Dunyain as a prostheses for Ark). Notwithstanding the other God that shows up (Ajokli) with no set up.

2) Serwa described the Consult as possessing no more ferocious souls in existence, save her Father. We see Aurang taken out within a couple of paragraphs (Kellhus' battle with Meppa was more fulsome). Aurax seemed like a beaten dog (don't know if he was always like that or just beaten into submission by the Dunyain). Mekeritrig was knocked out instantly by a magic lasso. Shauriatas was written out of the story with a sentence. The conclusion of the book felt like things just ran out of steam. Perhaps if half the book wasn't spent describing sodomy, rape, cannibalism, necrophilia, and general leper licking and other fun acts, there could have been more emphasis placed on a more refined conclusion.

3) Speaking of Shauriatas: he was the Archidemu of the Cunning School, took out Titirga through trickery (the legendary Hero-Mage who was possibly the most powerful sorcerer ever before Kellhus), Cheater of the Gods, figured out a way to penetrate the Artisan's glamour, overall evil genius par excellence, etc. And he didn't even make an appearance because he was taken out off-camera because they were dumb enough to bring, not one, but five Dunyain into their keep.

4) Speaking of the Dunyain, the Consult had a healthy wariness of them considering, you know, everything that Moeghus and Kellhus were able to achieve, being provided with intel by Cnaur, and probably having access to Achamanian's unauthorized biography. Kellhus, when Aurang possessed Esmenet, saw that they FEARED him because he represented something new to their hoary souls. Heck they went through the trouble of finding and destroying Ishual. I find it beyond implausible that they would bring 5 of them to Golgotterath to brainwash them to their side.

5) It also seemed somewhat silly that the Consult, considering how smart they were, couldn't figure out how to activate the No-God. You'd think they would just refer to the last and only time they were able to activate it...you know the time they tossed Nau-Cayuti in, and extrapolate from there. Guess they should have kept better notes.

6) Then there was the question that has been lingering since The Judging Eye - what would Mimara see if she looked at Kellhus with the Judging Eye (seemed that was the whole point of Mimara and Acha's journey). Nope, that didn't happen did it? Conveniently, we get a sentence describing how the Eye just wouldn't open.

7) Then there are things that just seem to break all the rules of this universe with no explanation e.g. Kelmomas apparently able to disrupt or outright banish the Gods from the world, e.g. Yatwer's White-Luck and exorcising Ajokli out of Kellhus by standing in front of him. Right.

8) Then there are the general things that we probably won't ever get an answer for, which leads to the question, why were they even there to begin with, eg. somebody commissioning Kosoter to keep an eye on Acha during the Prelude of the Judging Eye, why the heck was there an eyeball in that Scalper's heart down in the Mansion, etc.

I don't think I'll read the next two books. Time to cut my losses.
Title: Re: Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on July 26, 2017, 11:30:45 pm
First of all, welcome to the forum. :)

While I still found many things to enjoy in TUC despite the disappointments, I can understand where you're coming from. All the ambiguity in this last book can be quite confusing, especially for people (like myself) who haven't reread the whole series several times. Not sure if that is your situation too.

1) I never thought I would see a Deus Ex Machina (god in the machine) used by Bakker to conclude a book. There was literally a God (No-God) in the Machine (Carapace which was described by the Dunyain as a prostheses for Ark). Notwithstanding the other God that shows up (Ajokli) with no set up.

Well, the return of the No-God had been present as a possibility ever since TDTCB, with the existence of the Mandate, the Celmomian prophecy, etc. Opinions may vary if it was properly foreshadowed throughout the series (particularly in the more recent books), but if you look carefully, it's there. I'm currently rereading the series for the first time and I've already noticed quite a bit of foreshadowing concerning the No-God in PON alone.


2) Serwa described the Consult as possessing no more ferocious souls in existence, save her Father. We see Aurang taken out within a couple of paragraphs (Kellhus' battle with Meppa was more fulsome). Aurax seemed like a beaten dog (don't know if he was always like that or just beaten into submission by the Dunyain). Mekeritrig was knocked out instantly by a magic lasso. Shauriatas was written out of the story with a sentence. The conclusion of the book felt like things just ran out of steam. Perhaps if half the book wasn't spent describing sodomy, rape, cannibalism, necrophilia, and general leper licking and other fun acts, there could have been more emphasis placed on a more refined conclusion.

3) Speaking of Shauriatas: he was the Archidemu of the Cunning School, took out Titirga through trickery (the legendary Hero-Mage who was possibly the most powerful sorcerer ever before Kellhus), Cheater of the Gods, figured out a way to penetrate the Artisan's glamour, overall evil genius par excellence, etc. And he didn't even make an appearance because he was taken out off-camera because they were dumb enough to bring, not one, but five Dunyain into their keep.

4) Speaking of the Dunyain, the Consult had a healthy wariness of them considering, you know, everything that Moeghus and Kellhus were able to achieve, being provided with intel by Cnaur, and probably having access to Achamanian's unauthorized biography. Kellhus, when Aurang possessed Esmenet, saw that they FEARED him because he represented something new to their hoary souls. Heck they went through the trouble of finding and destroying Ishual. I find it beyond implausible that they would bring 5 of them to Golgotterath to brainwash them to their side.

I absolutely agreed right after finishing TUC, but I've had some time to think about it afterwards and it seems fitting to me that the Dnyain took the Consult over. It's still a shame that Shauriatas died offscreen, and that Mekeritrig died so easily, I really think that was a waste of both characters (especially Shauriatas, since Mekeritrig did get that short scene at the beginning of TDTCB). I don't feel so strongly about Aurang because we got to see him as a character plenty of times before this (again, it's a matter of opinion here). Aurax, well, it's not like we knew him prior to TUC - who's to say his current state was just caused by the Dnyain? His mind and personality might have been deteriorating for a long time and there's no evidence to say otherwise.
I believe the reason they ultimately underestimated the Dnyain despite their wariness of Monghus and Kellhus in PON was their pride. They still believed themselves powerful enough to overcome the threat of the Dnyain, and so they didn't completely exterminate them and brought those five as prisoners to Golgotterath. Probably hoping to debase and demean them with torture, rape, etc. to show them (and themselves) that the Dnyain weren't so mighty after all, that no matter what Monghus and Kellhus might have done out in the world, the Consult was still able to deal with the Dnyain. And in that they were undone.
As for the Great Ordeal sinking into depravity further and further: I agree with you, that part of the book should have been shorter. No need to fully remove it, just trim it down a little.


5) It also seemed somewhat silly that the Consult, considering how smart they were, couldn't figure out how to activate the No-God. You'd think they would just refer to the last and only time they were able to activate it...you know the time they tossed Nau-Cayuti in, and extrapolate from there. Guess they should have kept better notes.

I'm still unsure what to think about this. We really doesn't know how exactly the whole process works. It could be much more complicated than it seems, they could have thrown in more people along with Nau-Cayti and weren't able to work out the variables, etc. Even if they did figure it out and what was needed was indeed a person of Anasrimbor blood (and we don't know this for sure), who would they have used after Celmomas died? There was no way they could have known about Ishul, and as far as the rest of the world knew, the Anasrimbor line ended with Ganrelka.
Of course this doesn't justify not trying to get to Monghus/Kellhus after they learned of their existence 2000 years later, but like I said before, we're not sure how it works and I was going on about a speculation here (maybe someone who can explain this better will contribute their thoughts later).


6) Then there was the question that has been lingering since The Judging Eye - what would Mimara see if she looked at Kellhus with the Judging Eye (seemed that was the whole point of Mimara and Acha's journey). Nope, that didn't happen did it? Conveniently, we get a sentence describing how the Eye just wouldn't open.

Mimara has never been able to get the Judging Eye to open when she wants it to, it has always been involuntary since the beginning of TJE. And she ended up not being in close proximity to Kellhus for that long, anyway. When she lived in the Andiamine Heights, she rarely saw him. In TUC, she was taken away by Esmenet when she went into labour. By the time she gave birth Kellhus had already gone into the Ark. And if you remember, she and Achamian spent months travelling with the Skin Eaters and she saw them through the Judging Eye a total of...what, two, maybe three times? It may be convenient, yes, but not that convenient when thinking about it.

7) Then there are things that just seem to break all the rules of this universe with no explanation e.g. Kelmomas apparently able to disrupt or outright banish the Gods from the world, e.g. Yatwer's White-Luck and exorcising Ajokli out of Kellhus by standing in front of him. Right.

Like Mimara, Kelmomas has had his special abilities ever since TJE. It has been theorized in other threads that him becoming the No-God made it so he would always be so in the eyes of the Gods (as time is not linear to them), and therefore invisible (again, there are people who can explain this better than me). It worked with the White-Luck Warrior and Sorweel as well because they were agents of Yatwer.
I don't think he exorcised Ajokli exactly - Ajokli was blind to him, so Kellhus "switched back" to himself to see what was happening, as he couldn't as Ajokli.


8) Then there are the general things that we probably won't ever get an answer for, which leads to the question, why were they even there to begin with, eg. somebody commissioning Kosoter to keep an eye on Acha during the Prelude of the Judging Eye, why the heck was there an eyeball in that Scalper's heart down in the Mansion, etc.

I'm guessing the eye in the scalper's heart was a result of Cil-Aujas being a topos.
It's possible that we will never know if Achamian and Mimara's whole journey was being controlled by Kellhus from the beginning or not, it was one of those things left ambiguous. It could be that way, but it's still unclear why he wanted them to be there (unless you believe the theory that Kellhus was reincarnated as Mimara's baby).
Title: Re: Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: codebread on July 26, 2017, 11:43:13 pm
While I agree with you on many points, especially #2 (This one bothers me so much), you're mistaken on a few things. Maybe I can help ease your disappointment.

Notwithstanding the other God that shows up (Ajokli) with no set up.

Ajokli has been pretty involved since TJE. It wasn't very obvious, admittedly, but in retrospect a lot of the story involved him in one way or another.

7) Then there are things that just seem to break all the rules of this universe with no explanation e.g. Kelmomas apparently able to disrupt or outright banish the Gods from the world, e.g. Yatwer's White-Luck and exorcising Ajokli out of Kellhus by standing in front of him. Right.

This is because time works funny in TSA universe. The Gods exist outside of time, which means they don't really see things linearly. Kelmomas becomes the No-God, which means he's always the No-God from the perspective of the Gods. Since the Gods can't see the No-God, it means Kelmomas is invisible to them. Keep in mind this is only from "The Outside looking in" perspective... which is why the White-Luck and Ajokli can see Kelmomas when he stands in front of them physically. (I don't understand how Cnaiur can't see the Carapace though...) (Edit: I should add this is just my theory on it. The Cnaiur thing makes it a bit shaky)

Eh, overall, I agree. It was sloppy in a lot of places. I still enjoyed it a lot, but I was hoping for answers. I didn't receive many.

Lastly...

2) Serwa described the Consult as possessing no more ferocious souls in existence, save her Father. We see Aurang taken out within a couple of paragraphs (Kellhus' battle with Meppa was more fulsome). Aurax seemed like a beaten dog (don't know if he was always like that or just beaten into submission by the Dunyain). Mekeritrig was knocked out instantly by a magic lasso. Shauriatas was written out of the story with a sentence. The conclusion of the book felt like things just ran out of steam. Perhaps if half the book wasn't spent describing sodomy, rape, cannibalism, necrophilia, and general leper licking and other fun acts, there could have been more emphasis placed on a more refined conclusion.

I can't help but vent along with you on this. The story builds up these supremely powerful and evil antagonists, only to get rid of them within the span of a chapter or so. The entire attack on the Ark was underwhelming in my opinion. I really don't like that the main antagonists are the Dunyain now. Ah well.
Title: Re: Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: Crtha on July 27, 2017, 12:04:51 am
I'm actually getting curious to know what various endings people were anticipating or would have preferred after the fact?
Title: Re: Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: Wolfdrop on July 27, 2017, 12:17:32 am
I was so excited to have Ishterebinth on the side of the Ordeal, and it go total War of the Last Alliance. Qya mages fighting alongside Gnostic Sorcerors, one of the Tall charging the Extrinsic Gate and strangling Bashrag.


The Tall don't even get a glossary entry...

Instead they were killed off screen, and like 3 Qya turn up but end up fighting the Mysunsai?

I actually thought Sorweel would become a genuine Believer-King and given his part-Nonman soul lead the Cnuroi contingent of the Ordeal.

I can't help but feeling that so many awesome things were set up but then just fizzled out rather than exploded.
Title: Re: Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: Crtha on July 27, 2017, 12:39:47 am
After Ishteribinth I had realized just how pathetic the Nonmen had become, but yeah, prior to that I was hoping for a better showing from them too. And no Shauritas was sad.

Definitely dismayed by the way Sorweel went out. With you there.

But I must say, the whole thing seemed destined for a tragic end from the word go. And the return of the No-god was a given for me.

edit: I feel like these types of feelings and minor disappointments are par for the course on anything I read, but some people seem genuinely pissed off that their expectations have been thoroughly overturned. I'm reading a lot about what they didn't like but not a lot of examples of what type of ending they expected overall? e.g. Return of the King type ending, Last Argument of Kings perhaps? Idk.
Title: Re: Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: Madness on July 27, 2017, 01:18:33 am
More thoughts tomorrow, my night is pretty used up but welcome to the Second Apocalypse, panorama.
Title: Re: Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: Dez on July 27, 2017, 03:00:23 am
I first read the series late last year/early this year and did a reread in anticipation of TUC and i think I came away at least as satisfied with TUC as I was with TTT.

 I really haven't waded into any fan discussions in the lead up so I wasn't really aware of the points of emphasis or prediction. So from my point of view disappointment over things like the nature of the Inchoroi and what we saw of known members of the Consult doesn't really strike me as much of a big deal. What did we ever really get in the narrative of Sheonanra other than that one look of a fragile contrivance? What would Mekeritrig be but a barely competent Eratic? And Aurax and Aurang seem to be the least of their race. To me it seemed perfectly logical that the Dunyain made hash of them, especially since the Dunyain seem to have arrived at the status of the the Inchoroi progenitors independently. To the extent that readers hope for an as yet unrevealed explanation to the great mystery in any narrative, I get why it's disappointing. But I think it's just difficult to deliver on that and it's not really unheard of for an author to make his first mystery also be integral to his last.

Akka's arc continuing to dwell on the nature of the Dunyain read as a built in red herring prior to TUC- what did it matter if they're dead and Kellhus might have abandoned their ways? As it turns out fathoming the Dunyain remained extremely important and will likely remain so since now Bakker has tied any questions about the Inchoroi to their makers and those makers have an analogue in the Dunsult.

Title: Re: Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: False Man on July 27, 2017, 07:40:55 am
1) I never thought I would see a Deus Ex Machina (god in the machine) used by Bakker to conclude a book. There was literally a God (No-God) in the Machine (Carapace which was described by the Dunyain as a prostheses for Ark). Notwithstanding the other God that shows up (Ajokli) with no set up.

As others have said it was in some ways foreshadowed. I think some people will have the same reaction when Euron will become the Big Bad One in "The winds of winter" like "He's arrived mid-series, why is he so important now?". It depends on how deep you read the text, how many online discussions you followed etc.
Title: Re: Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: Crtha on July 27, 2017, 08:42:24 am
Maybe the Unholy Consult can be likened to the Red Wedding or the Empire Strikes Back?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: Wilshire on July 27, 2017, 10:51:09 am
[edit]
Bakker specifically address the Dues Ex Machina question in his Reddit AMA (https://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/6r3hba/unholy_consultation_r_scott_bakker_bares_the_soul/dl21toa/)
[/edit]


Great summary Dez

What did we ever really get in the narrative of Sheonanra other than that one look of a fragile contrivance?
What would Mekeritrig be but a barely competent Eratic?
And Aurax and Aurang seem to be the least of their race.
To me it seemed perfectly logical that the Dunyain made hash of them, especially since the Dunyain seem to have arrived at the status of the the Inchoroi progenitors independently.
To the extent that readers hope for an as yet unrevealed explanation to the great mystery in any narrative, I get why it's disappointing. But I think it's just difficult to deliver on that and it's not really unheard of for an author to make his first mystery also be integral to his last.

Akka's arc continuing to dwell on the nature of the Dunyain read as a built in red herring prior to TUC- what did it matter if they're dead and Kellhus might have abandoned their ways? As it turns out fathoming the Dunyain remained extremely important and will likely remain so since now Bakker has tied any questions about the Inchoroi to their makers and those makers have an analogue in the Dunsult.


These things, separated out into bulleted points, really demonstrate for me why TUC mirrors TTT and ends the series in exactly the way it was built up to be. To be surprised or disappointed I understand, but if you think about it briefly, this seems a unique, but obvious conclusion to the strange story.

If you could change any of those items, what would it be, and do you think that would really make the story better?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: Madness on July 27, 2017, 01:22:17 pm
Instead they were killed off screen, and like 3 Qya turn up but end up fighting the Mysunsai?

As I admonished Wilshire, the Tall are all still in the Mere. One Tall, arguably the greatest, one who has devoured a thousand thousand swine contemplating Min-Uroikas, Oirunas surfaced from the Deep and triggered Ishterebinth's divided loyalties (which arguably the Lord of Swans et al. won because they did in fact show up to the Ordeal's aid, if that attempt did flounder fantastically).

edit: I feel like these types of feelings and minor disappointments are par for the course on anything I read, but some people seem genuinely pissed off that their expectations have been thoroughly overturned. I'm reading a lot about what they didn't like but not a lot of examples of what type of ending they expected overall? e.g. Return of the King type ending, Last Argument of Kings perhaps? Idk.

+1. Very confused fan here. But then I famously would have accepted TGO as the end of TAE ;).

I first read the series late last year/early this year and did a reread in anticipation of TUC and i think I came away at least as satisfied with TUC as I was with TTT.

For my reading, I'm with you here - still haven't read the canon artifact which I'm probably going to crack today. TUC essentially maps exactly to TTT and TWP (or its latter portion, at least) for me. I'm not really sure how people didn't expect the denouement (albeit in Bakker's now classic elliptical style).

Back to panorama, I'm not sure I can address your opening post better than has already been done. Mileage may vary, as the saying goes.

But I'm still glad you found your way to the forum. There are so many unique and interesting connections to make melding with the strange noosphere that is Second Apocalypse 8).
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: Dunkelheit on July 27, 2017, 01:25:06 pm
Literally the whole point of the Great Ordeal is to destroy the Consult and stop the No-God from being reborn. That the No-God was reborn is not a Deus Ex Machina in my opinon. (Well, it's not in the literary sense at least. In the literally sense, yes.)

I also don't find it hard to believe that the Consult would take Dunyain prisoners. Clearly Kellhus has enormous power and understanding the root of that power would be a tremendous benefit when it comes to defeating him. And what is five prisoners chained up in the basement gonna do? We have all the science and magic in the world at our disposal, and you are worried about a couple of powerless prisoners? Absurd! Well, knowing the Dunyain and with the power of hindsight not so much...

I think there is a reason there was a whole storyline on how people found the existence of "thought-dancers" so hard to believe. The also showed us scenes in the previous books where the Consult underestimates Kellhus and what he is capable of. Hell, as a reader I have been in his head and I still ended underestimating him several times, even though it seemed obvious in hindsight.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: Dunkelheit on July 27, 2017, 01:30:08 pm
As for Kelmomas affecting the gods, that is explained. He is the No-God, gods can't see him. Gods see the entire timeline, when the timeline changes, the gods change. If you surprise a god, that fundamentally changes that god and Kelmomas always surprises as he is invisible to them.
Title: Re: Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: codebread on July 27, 2017, 01:58:28 pm
I'm actually getting curious to know what various endings people were anticipating or would have preferred after the fact?

I'm happy with the ending itself. In fact, I would have been pretty disappointed if the No-God hadn't been resurrected by the end. I just didn't really care for the way so much of the story seemed to fizzle out to make way for the twists at the end. Even still, as I was reading it, I was enjoying it. The Dunsult twist was the only part that I didn't much care for, but everything with Ajokli, Kelmomas, Kellhus' fate, etc. I was thoroughly enjoying. I just expected it to make sense in some way by the time the book ended, which it did not. Instead of seeing a climactic conclusion with the antagonists that have been built up for six books, they're killed off-screen or effortlessly and then nothing is explained. With the next series only being a possibility, it's pretty frustrating.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: Madness on July 27, 2017, 03:03:51 pm
I think there is a reason there was a whole storyline on how people found the existence of "thought-dancers" so hard to believe.

Welcome to the Second Apocalypse, Dunkelheit.

Also, this is exactly what terrifies me most for the people of Earwa. No one knows about the Mutilated, all Earwa is operating under the false assumption that Shauriatas, Mekeritrig, and Aurax (maybe even Aurang since it's unlikely anyone saw his corpse) are still the Consult. Odds are stacked against humanity with the No-God and the weapons races acting of one will as it is... let alone that they don't fucking know they have four fucking Kellhuses to contend with.
Title: Re: Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: CondYoke on July 27, 2017, 04:17:11 pm
I'm actually getting curious to know what various endings people were anticipating or would have preferred after the fact?
I do agree with some of the points that panorama makes. The ending does seem abrupt compared to the details of the march to get there. I think some of the confusion comes from the POV of Malowebi- being a decapitated head rolling about his waist makes his ability to describe the action very limited-I found this most frustrating with the battle of Kellhus and Aurang.  And yes, Met and Shae were too easily written out of the series.
Also, I wanted to see more of the Ark. how does one get from the gate to the Golden Room absent a floating shield/ wings? It also doesn't square with the images of the golden room that Akka dreams of- I remember him walking from the outside of the ark inside- no? not possible at 1000+feet of altitude.
Does Kellhus know any of the Mutilated? Of course he does, but do we? Is that the Pragma? How did The Survivor survive if the consult did, in fact, "purge the 1000-1000 halls"? Do the mutilated know about the survivor?
I don't quibble with the ending (how it turned out) per say, I just wanted to see more- I would have liked to see some of these things shown- mimara seeing Kellhus with the JE, Akka going Gnostic ape-shit, the death of the dragon, more understanding of the Tenke (does the Heron Spear have to be plugged in?), and a climb to the golden room (how did Kel get through the Hoard, the Ordeal, and the dragon?).
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: Somnambulist on July 27, 2017, 04:30:05 pm
I don't quibble with the ending (how it turned out) per say, I just wanted to see more- I would have liked to see some of these things shown- mimara seeing Kellhus with the JE, Akka going Gnostic ape-shit, the death of the dragon, more understanding of the Tenke (does the Heron Spear have to be plugged in?), and a climb to the golden room (how did Kel get through the Hoard, the Ordeal, and the dragon?).


As per my bold on your question: It's stated that the door high on the side of the Upright Horn is where Kellhus entered, after coercing Aurax to open it.  It's a short-cut to the Golden Room, if you're one of the Consult and can access it.  Otherwise, everyone else 'takes the stairs,' as it were.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: Wilshire on July 27, 2017, 04:44:27 pm
Also, I wanted to see more of the Ark. how does one get from the gate to the Golden Room absent a floating shield/ wings? It also doesn't square with the images of the golden room that Akka dreams of- I remember him walking from the outside of the ark inside- no? not possible at 1000+feet of altitude.
Kellhus exhibits flying/floating abilities that do no use sorcery.  Maybe thats how he go there?

Does Kellhus know any of the Mutilated? Of course he does, but do we?
Could go either way. He likely doesn't know Koringhus, so depending on the actual age of the Dunyain, he might not know them. Its been a long time since he left Ishual.

Is that the Pragma?
Might be. We certainly don't know who they are

How did The Survivor survive if the consult did, in fact, "purge the 1000-1000 halls"?
By hiding. One cannot raise walls against what has been forgotten ;)

Do the mutilated know about the survivor?
Could go either way. These Dunyain have have been captured somewhat early, or way at the 'end' - whenever they determined they had completed their purge.

I don't quibble with the ending (how it turned out) per say, I just wanted to see more- I would have liked to see some of these things shown- mimara seeing Kellhus with the JE, Akka going Gnostic ape-shit, the death of the dragon, more understanding of the Tenke (does the Heron Spear have to be plugged in?), and a climb to the golden room (how did Kel get through the Hoard, the Ordeal, and the dragon?).
I assume Kelmomas (you meant Kelmomas, not Kellhus, right?) was brought there by a skin spy, and isn't there an entry in the Glossary about the Spear having a battery pack?

I agree, TUC could have gone on for another 1000 pages and I'd be happy about that. Really every book could be about double the length. Its a big world, lots to explore, and if the Atrocity Tales are any indication then there's plenty we don't ever even get hints at.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: CondYoke on July 27, 2017, 04:55:23 pm
Yes, I was referring to Kelmomas- his journey seems improbable, given the timeline, and the fact that, despite being .5 Dunyain, that's a long climb. And agin, how'd he get through the hoard, the ordeal, and the intrinsic gate without being seen? And why does his presence allow the skin spy to move?
It seemed so abrupt that I can't help but think this is all part of the plan... TTT that is. (I.e. Kellhus knew Esmi would release Kel jr., he would be salted, etc...)
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: Wilshire on July 27, 2017, 05:30:38 pm
Agreed, his showing is abrupt. Not sure how to rectify that for you, other than I think he was brought there - maybe through a series of backdoors? Still strange.

Some interesting discussions on the subject throughout the TUC threads regarding who was responsible for what, like [TUC Spoilers] Ajokli and the metaphysical whodunit (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=2257.0)

Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: Somnambulist on July 27, 2017, 06:25:08 pm
Yes, I was referring to Kelmomas- his journey seems improbable, given the timeline, and the fact that, despite being .5 Dunyain, that's a long climb. And agin, how'd he get through the hoard, the ordeal, and the intrinsic gate without being seen? And why does his presence allow the skin spy to move?
It seemed so abrupt that I can't help but think this is all part of the plan... TTT that is. (I.e. Kellhus knew Esmi would release Kel jr., he would be salted, etc...)

ah, I'll just show myself out, then.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: CondYoke on July 27, 2017, 07:45:38 pm
Yes, I was referring to Kelmomas- his journey seems improbable, given the timeline, and the fact that, despite being .5 Dunyain, that's a long climb. And agin, how'd he get through the hoard, the ordeal, and the intrinsic gate without being seen? And why does his presence allow the skin spy to move?
It seemed so abrupt that I can't help but think this is all part of the plan... TTT that is. (I.e. Kellhus knew Esmi would release Kel jr., he would be salted, etc...)

ah, I'll just show myself out, then.

Haha.  Sorry for the confusion.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: themerchant on July 27, 2017, 08:20:34 pm
I think it's possible Kellhus said for her not to do it specifically so she would. Maitha and Thelli both hesitate to tell Esme what Kellhus would do as she would just do the opposite, at various points during TAE. "such is the sum of my grievance against him?". In the TUC scene we get Akka seeing how much she hates Kellhus as a little reminder just before Kellhus tells her where Kel is and to leave him.

The real crazy shit is when you realise Moenghus the senior sent the Esme Skin-spy.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: profgrape on July 27, 2017, 08:37:47 pm
Yes, I was referring to Kelmomas- his journey seems improbable, given the timeline, and the fact that, despite being .5 Dunyain, that's a long climb. And agin, how'd he get through the hoard, the ordeal, and the intrinsic gate without being seen? And why does his presence allow the skin spy to move?
It seemed so abrupt that I can't help but think this is all part of the plan... TTT that is. (I.e. Kellhus knew Esmi would release Kel jr., he would be salted, etc...)

Kelmomas sets off with the Skin-Spy-in-Black the night before the Ordeal's morning assault.  So given the fact that the path is clear and he has a guide, it seems like he could make it to the Golden Room in time to completely ruin his Pops' day.   
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: TLEILAXU on July 27, 2017, 10:53:46 pm
That's what I was thinking too. Did the skin-spy know, though? That he couldn't be seen by the Gods, that is. Maybe Kelmomas is in a sense a human born without a soul? Also, this has been talked about before in other threads, but what was the reason why Somandutta saved Mimara? Did they somehow know they would need her judging eye to collapse the wave-function or whatever?
Title: Re: Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: panorama on July 28, 2017, 05:47:50 am
edit: I feel like these types of feelings and minor disappointments are par for the course on anything I read, but some people seem genuinely pissed off that their expectations have been thoroughly overturned. I'm reading a lot about what they didn't like but not a lot of examples of what type of ending they expected overall? e.g. Return of the King type ending, Last Argument of Kings perhaps? Idk.

The book I would have preferred (ending, middle, beginning, plot, character development, etc.) would be one that:

A) Does not use deus ex machina to conclude it -- I'm not disappointed because a god shows up in the story. I have no issue with Yatwer, Ajokli, Momas, Gilgaol, etc. Deus ex machina is a plot device (not a character trope) that is as old as writing itself. It concludes a plot by bringing in a god (magician, hero, whatever) with sufficient power to just end things. There's a reason why no credible author uses it.

B) Does not spend half the book in pedantic detail on rape, sodomy, necrophilia, bestiality, cannibalism, murder, gang rape, gang sodomy, gang necrophilia, gang bestiality, gang cannibalism, rape orgies, sodomy orgies, necrophilia orgies, bestiality orgies, cannibalism orgies, murder orgies, etc. to the detriment of plot, narrative clarity, character development, and so forth.

C) This is the last book of the quadrilogy, so I would expect it to provide closure to some, if not all, of the major arcs. It did not do that. In fact, it just calls into question why those arcs even existed, e.g. Acha and Mimara, Sorwheel.

D) Has a climax that is worthy of the build up. To put this in perspective, more writing is spent on Sorwheel and his, ahem, auto-erotic episode (and how he feels about it afterward throughout the story), then on the showdown with the Unholy Consult (which, by the way, happens to be the name of the book).



   
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: panorama on July 28, 2017, 05:53:01 am
As for Kelmomas affecting the gods, that is explained. He is the No-God, gods can't see him. Gods see the entire timeline, when the timeline changes, the gods change. If you surprise a god, that fundamentally changes that god and Kelmomas always surprises as he is invisible to them.
What? How about when Nau-Cayuti was the No-God...could the gods see Kelmomas then?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: Rots on July 28, 2017, 06:07:48 am
I agree with Panorama almost completely. Well put. Im hoping my initial disappointment subsides but seriously, wtf, so much bs. Maybe Bakker is the trickster..
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: CondYoke on July 28, 2017, 07:15:31 am
Yes he is. And I admire him all the more for it...

"I will adore thee!" it gasped. Images of ravishishing and being ravished twined beneath the soul's eye. (350)

I've met no other writer who so well meshes the animal with the holy- the physical with the intellect- the being with the now. As for the subject/object bit... I'm still working that out.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: Woden on July 28, 2017, 08:35:18 am
Totally agree with Condyoke and Panorama.
 The end is too abrupt for me. I mean, half of the book lingers in grisly descriptions that surely creates a great atmosphere, but don't match with a climax too short and sharp and with tons of unanswered questions.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: Wolfdrop on July 28, 2017, 09:15:29 am
Yeah, I still don't know why the skin-spy protected her, that was a burning question.

I'm disappointed that Kellhus didn't hold a wingless Aurang over the edge by his throat a la Cnaiur and then cast him from the Vigil.

I got excited about it when he made some reference to doing it to the Consult, figuratively, but it would have been cool.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: Wilshire on July 28, 2017, 11:34:34 am
edit: I feel like these types of feelings and minor disappointments are par for the course on anything I read, but some people seem genuinely pissed off that their expectations have been thoroughly overturned. I'm reading a lot about what they didn't like but not a lot of examples of what type of ending they expected overall? e.g. Return of the King type ending, Last Argument of Kings perhaps? Idk.

...

Welcome to the forum panorama :)

In response:
A) Good, because he didn't. DEM is something that appears without explanation to magically solve the issue at hand. This doesn't happen in any sense of the trope other than literal (ie actual God shows up) which isn't at all what DEM even is (as a literary device).

B) You may choose to fixate on whatever you prefer. I'd imagine though if you count the words, you'll be surprised how much you're overstating it. What you're expressing is an emotional response to emotional scenes - likely a commentary on a certain aspect of the human condition (ie the readers): that grievous violence doesn't get under our skin unless you add sex into it, its OK to slaughter billions but god forbid there's anything beyond head chopping. The unmitigated gall!

C) All major arcs have closure. That it doesn't fit your prescription of what closure is isn't really the author's fault, is it?

D) It did. Again, YMMV, but I don't think its the author's job to pander to each reader's sensibilities.

As for Kelmomas affecting the gods, that is explained. He is the No-God, gods can't see him. Gods see the entire timeline, when the timeline changes, the gods change. If you surprise a god, that fundamentally changes that god and Kelmomas always surprises as he is invisible to them.
What? How about when Nau-Cayuti was the No-God...could the gods see Kelmomas then?
Dunkelheit already answered you. Its a complex subject though, and if you want to dig in, you'll have to read more than one post. Short answer, no they couldn't see Kelmomas ever - read the book again or explore the forum for further clarity.

Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: Dunkelheit on July 28, 2017, 02:06:09 pm
What? How about when Nau-Cayuti was the No-God...could the gods see Kelmomas then?
You are projecting our sense of time onto the gods, the gods experience the entire timeline at once. Since Kelmomas ended up being the No-God, he has always been the No-God to the gods. As we see when Mimara looks at him with the Judging Eye. Mimara is another example. She gets the Eye because she miscarries, even before she ever was pregnant since the gods don't distinguish between before, after or during because of how they perceive time. They also have no memory (and why would they if they can always see everything that ever happened and will happen) so they are oblivious to the timeline changing. At least that is what Kellhus claims.

I get the confusion, Bakker is definitely fucking with cause and effect, and our sense of time throughout the books. As well as many other things we take for granted. I can't quite wrap my head around how people can prophesy things that even the gods can't see.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: themerchant on July 28, 2017, 02:18:47 pm
I absolutely loved the ending.

I never viewed the Consult as that effective, in fact my gripe was that we were seeing the dregs of a 8000 year war of extermination that started after a huge cataclysm(arkfall) fighting. Against a Dunyain it didn't seem really that fair.  All they really seemed to have was a shit tonne of sranc. This bugged me till after i read TGO, then i sort of settled in my head we were seeing the "end" of he conflict so of course both sides were reduced.

Another point is for me it's just not possible to know the book well enough after one frenzied read through. I personally need to read it again before i start to get a drift, as i power through the first read, trying to find out what happens.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: CondYoke on July 28, 2017, 02:22:28 pm
What? How about when Nau-Cayuti was the No-God...could the gods see Kelmomas then?
You are projecting our sense of time onto the gods, the gods experience the entire timeline at once. Since Kelmomas ended up being the No-God, he has always been the No-God to the gods. As we see when Mimara looks at him with the Judging Eye. Mimara is another example. She gets the Eye because she miscarries, even before she ever was pregnant since the gods don't distinguish between before, after or during because of how they perceive time. They also have no memory (and why would they if they can always see everything that ever happened and will happen) so they are oblivious to the timeline changing. At least that is what Kellhus claims.

I get the confusion, Bakker is definitely fucking with cause and effect, and our sense of time throughout the books. As well as many other things we take for granted. I can't quite wrap my head around how people can prophesy things that even the gods can't see.

I asked this somewhere else, but doesn't the existence of the outside, as it is, auger the ultimate failure of the consult? If the outside is timeless, wouldn't it be closed for ever once it is closed? If they succeeded sometime in the "future", it would "already" be closed, no?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: Gorgorotterath on July 28, 2017, 03:35:29 pm
Well panorama, I mostly agree with you.
I have to agree on the "deus-ex-machina" as well I fear, it seems so much a solution concocted out of thin air, just because RSB didn't have one when he started the series. Maybe this is not the truth but that's how it felt for me.
The way the Inchoroi/Consult are disposed was such a letdown for me...well I've already ranted a lot on this before.
I also hated the immanent Gods of TAE, but in that it seems I am in a minority...
I think I will read the third series though, but sure the damage is done.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: Wilshire on July 28, 2017, 04:00:40 pm
What separates a DEM from anything else in a book? It's context. You can isolate anything, any plot point, and conclusion, and call it DEM, but that doesn't make it one.

I guess it comes down to a matter of opinion, but Ajokli specifically, and the rest of it, was adequetly foreshadowed. Nothin that happened was without precedence. All of TAE is about the gods and them interacting directing with humanity. To miss this is, to me, to not have read it.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: MSJ on July 28, 2017, 04:11:17 pm
Agree with Ol' Banhammer here. Nothing , from Ajokli to the walking of the No-God can be considered DEM. It is all a very huge part of TAE, the gods at least, Ajokli in particular. As far as the No-God, that is what the entire series is about and is foreshadowed from the very first book, TDTCB.

I feel this is another instance of the narrative/plot not meeting the expectations of certain readers. Do me a favor, reread the series and then quote all the passages where the No-God. Ajokli and the Gods are mentioned. Well, that's preposterous because it would be the longest post in history and basically a rewrite of the story. I understand if the ending doesnt meet your expectations, or you didn't see the foreshadowing of these things throughout the whole of the series. But, calling it DEM is rediculous, and cheap way to put down an authors work.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: MSJ on July 28, 2017, 04:45:37 pm
Quote from:  CondYoke
I asked this somewhere else, but doesn't the existence of the outside, as it is, auger the ultimate failure of the consult? If the outside is timeless, wouldn't it be closed for ever once it is closed? If they succeeded sometime in the "future", it would "already" be closed, no?

Excellent observation! And, i think you are correct. If somewhere along the way the Outside is shut, then it would always be shut, just like Kel was always the No-God. Wow, what a great theory. I think this points to the failure of the No-God.

I believe Kellhua is now warring on the Outside with the 100 and trying to create an Outside where damnation will not exist as it does now. Maybe he is trying to bring forth the God of Gods and stop Objective morality, i dunno (just my guess). But, i think Kellhus has come to believe in humanity, hence him truly warring against the Consult to prevent the rise of the No-God. And, if he failed in that, he believed humanity would find a way to survive and defeat the No-God. Maybe Mimara and the tapestry is proof of this? That she is the key to defeat the No-God? Remember, we have Akka's dream (the "real" dreams) where the Heron Spear doesnt kill the No-God, they dont know what did. Maybe a soul like Mimara did?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: Dunkelheit on July 28, 2017, 04:48:02 pm
I asked this somewhere else, but doesn't the existence of the outside, as it is, auger the ultimate failure of the consult? If the outside is timeless, wouldn't it be closed for ever once it is closed? If they succeeded sometime in the "future", it would "already" be closed, no?

That's a hard question. I'm gonna mangle together two very different views of time here, and this line of reasoning is kind of a mess, but I think you need something like this to square the circle.

The future the gods see can be changed. We saw this with both the White Lucks, and when the future changes the gods change. So from the earth perspective perhaps up to the future-change we had one set of gods and an Outside that worked a certain way, then after the future-change we have a new Outside? If we take this to be true then there is a Yatwer version 1 before the change and a Yatwer version 2 after the change. The second White Luck is picked before the first one failed, and if the first one is guaranteed 100 % to succeed then it makes no sense to make another one. Perhaps the first White Luck was picked by Yatwer 1, then when it failed Yatwer 2 picked the second one. But the fact that Yatwer 2 was able to pick the second White Luck before the change would seem to indicate that both versions exist throughout time (as they should since they are gods).

So if we follow this line of reasoning further then it seems that we have many different versions of each god interacting with the world, each acting according to the future they see which is caused by future changing actions on Earwa. According to this interpretation there should be versions of the gods that are shut out, but since these versions are shut out they can't act on the world is my guess. Perhaps each god is a superposition of every version of themselves, but as time progresses on Earwa they sheath possibilities. So that Yatwer 1 can only interact with the timeline up to event that changes her into Yatwer 2, but Yatwer 2 can interact with both the time following and preceding the change. Or something like that. I'm just speculating.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: Wilshire on July 28, 2017, 08:04:03 pm
CondYoke/Dunkelheit, that makes good sense. The gods must exist all at once and be able to change. Part of their 'blindness to their blindness' is them not even being aware of this change. Things get complex and confusing when you involve timetravel, which this basically is. Remember, Kellhus/Moenghused that there must be some kind of causality loops within Earwa - and I imagine this effect is only heightened by Gods dropping in Avatars whenever they please.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: CondYoke on July 28, 2017, 08:25:41 pm
Quote from:  CondYoke
I asked this somewhere else, but doesn't the existence of the outside, as it is, auger the ultimate failure of the consult? If the outside is timeless, wouldn't it be closed for ever once it is closed? If they succeeded sometime in the "future", it would "already" be closed, no?

Excellent observation! And, i think you are correct. If somewhere along the way the Outside is shut, then it would always be shut, just like Kel was always the No-God. Wow, what a great theory. I think this points to the failure of the No-God.

I believe Kellhua is now warring on the Outside with the 100 and trying to create an Outside where damnation will not exist as it does now. Maybe he is trying to bring forth the God of Gods and stop Objective morality, i dunno (just my guess). But, i think Kellhus has come to believe in humanity, hence him truly warring against the Consult to prevent the rise of the No-God. And, if he failed in that, he believed humanity would find a way to survive and defeat the No-God. Maybe Mimara and the tapestry is proof of this? That she is the key to defeat the No-God? Remember, we have Akka's dream (the "real" dreams) where the Heron Spear doesnt kill the No-God, they dont know what did. Maybe a soul like Mimara did?

Yeah I like your theory - Kellhus' exit was too abrupt- and Bakker just dropped some hints on his Q&A that back you up- "Ajokli can't find him (on the outside)".
He's leaving Akka, Mim, and Moe Jr. behind to deal with the NG.
As always with Bakker, his works grow in my mind from chewing on the ideas! This book keeps getting better, two days after I finished reading.  It's like those delicious burps one gets after a good meal... this meat was delicious.

Dunk, that's interesting, but seems complex- kind of like the multiverse theory- if every time the gods mess with time, another version of the outside pops into existence there would be a multitude of forces on the reality of Earwa. That being said, I can see that these splits in time don't happen often- 2x was the white luck stymied. Dunno, I just think it is overly complex. ::)
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: Wilshire on July 28, 2017, 08:30:53 pm
Quote from:  CondYoke
I asked this somewhere else, but doesn't the existence of the outside, as it is, auger the ultimate failure of the consult? If the , I just think it is overly complex. ::)
Never!

-sorry, misquoted - fixed
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: CondYoke on July 28, 2017, 08:34:27 pm
Quote from:  CondYoke
I asked this somewhere else, but doesn't the existence of the outside, as it is, auger the ultimate failure of the consult? If the , I just think it is overly complex. ::)

Hahaha- just dunk's theory, not the overall... I'll be puzzling over the series' questions for years to come!

Never!
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: Dunkelheit on July 28, 2017, 08:49:39 pm
Dunk, that's interesting, but seems complex- kind of like the multiverse theory- if every time the gods mess with time, another version of the outside pops into existence there would be a multitude of forces on the reality of Earwa. That being said, I can see that these splits in time don't happen often- 2x was the white luck stymied. Dunno, I just think it is overly complex. ::)

Yeah, I would like to simplify this theory a little:
So events in Earwa changes the gods. These new gods can and already have changed the past. So when (or maybe if) the world closes, presumably this too will change the gods and these gods will think the world has always been closed. But these gods can not change the past since the world is closed to them, which is why we don't hear from them.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: boneclinkz on July 29, 2017, 02:30:23 pm
I'm glad I'm not the only person who was disappointed by this book. The Great Ordeal was such a wonderful setup and this could have wrapped up the series as nicely as The Thousandfold Thought did for TPON, which holds a place in my heart as an absolute masterpiece of fantasy writing.

I don't know what happened during the writing of The Unholy Consult, but the wheels completely fell off. The parts of the story that are actually intriguing are few and far between, which is pretty uncharacteristic for this author. I think my favorite part of the whole novel was a throwaway section where Aurang sits on the horn and reminisces about the different names he's had since Arkfall.

There could have been chapters for key members of the Consult as they prepare for the arrival of the great ordeal, and I bet it would have been great reading. But instead, we got 200 pages of MEAT MEAT MEAT and it got to the point where the sodomy, cannibalism, and insanity of the believer kings became boring to read about. Yes, yes, we get it, THE MEAT!

And look, I don't need a happy ending. I was half expecting Kellhus to sacrifice the great ordeal just like he assumed his father would do. Even the Golgotterath-torpos-possession thing had promise, but for some reason we just kinda glossed over that. The ending we got though, that was insulting. Yeah, we know how the Great Ordeal ends, but what about the characters that are still alive? You know, the things that keep us engaged in the story? And why even bother with the boring appendices that don't reveal any new insight?

So for anyone else annoyed by this "finale", just add this after the final sentence.

"Tsuramah waxed quite phallically, strung like a bow across the horizon. Kayutas, Serwe, Esmenet, Achamian, Mimara, Mimara's baby, Mohengus, and all Scylvendi, Nonmen, and Ordeal forces were consumed. Everyone went to hell except Mimara, Esmenet, and maybe Mimara's baby? The (now skeletal) Cnair urs Skiotha remains animated by hell demons and rides the whirlwind on a nimil surfboard."
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: Wilshire on July 29, 2017, 03:55:23 pm
It's so great that people have such intense reactions to the book. Everyone should check out the most recent author q/a thread - it's exactly as expected, even wanted. We all appreciate the contributions each of you are making to the success of Bakker. Write reviews, on every site! Differing opinions draw people in : "gee, I wonder what all the hubbub is about, better look for myself". After all, nothing draws a crowd like a crowd.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: Madness on July 30, 2017, 02:34:57 pm
So for anyone else annoyed by this "finale", just add this after the final sentence.

"Tsuramah waxed quite phallically, strung like a bow across the horizon. Kayutas, Serwe, Esmenet, Achamian, Mimara, Mimara's baby, Mohengus, and all Scylvendi, Nonmen, and Ordeal forces were consumed. Everyone went to hell except Mimara, Esmenet, and maybe Mimara's baby? The (now skeletal) Cnair urs Skiotha remains animated by hell demons and rides the whirlwind on a nimil surfboard."

Lmao.

That's great, though, I'm guessing it's not going to go down quite like your projecting.

Welcome to the Second Apocalypse, boneclinkz. Well met :).
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: Spooky on July 30, 2017, 02:45:41 pm
It would have been better than what we got. The Q&A had a whole lot of unrepentant teen espoused by Bakker. "I intended it to be confusing!"/ "My devoted and slavish proof readers weren't confused so clearly passionate reader and first time poster YOU ARE WRONG".

Good lord, at some point you have to age and maturity out of such responses.

The Book is vague and easily/deeply easy to misinterpret at the very best and its highly unlikely you could take a step back and look at the commentary here, at Westeros, Reddit, RPGNET and Goodreads and draw any other evidence based conclusion.

I hope he changes that tone or the Reddit AMA is going to be...interesting.



"I meant the finale and denouement to be confusing/inspire vigorous disagreement/cause spontaneous outrage on all available niche sites" said no honest serious writer or communicator ever.


Oh and we are all just pretending the pandering Cunny loving 100 foot Dragon dialogue wasn't there, right? Because it felt like Scott was talking to his critics from the first firestorm he became embroiled in, with the feminists.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: Madness on July 30, 2017, 02:51:53 pm
It would have been better than what we got. The Q&A had a whole lot of unrepentant teen espoused by Bakker. "I intended it to be confusing!"/ "My devoted and slavish proof readers weren't confused so clearly passionate reader and first time poster YOU ARE WRONG".

Good lord, at some point you have to age and maturity out of such responses.

The Book is vague and easily/deeply easy to misinterpret at the very best and its highly unlikely you could take a step back and look at the commentary here, at Westeros, Reddit, RPGNET and Goodreads and draw any other evidence based conclusion.

I hope he changes that tone or the Reddit AMA is going to be...interesting.

Different strokes for different folks, I suppose. I do not perceive and would not describe Bakker's behavior the same as you.

Also, it doesn't help anyone's perception that he diligently responded to each comment in the thread and fell victim to himself, our servers, our theme, our forum, or any other number of foibles.

Also, also, I made a new thread to discuss the Gods and their interaction with Earwa (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=2291.0).
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: SmilerLoki on July 30, 2017, 02:55:15 pm
"I meant the finale and denouement to be confusing/inspire vigorous disagreement/cause spontaneous outrage on all available niche sites" said no honest serious writer or communicator ever.
I'm confused. Why is this a bad thing?

Oh and we are all just pretending the pandering Cunny loving 100 foot Dragon dialogue wasn't there, right? Because it felt like Scott was talking to his critics from the first firestorm he became embroiled in, with the feminists.
I've actually read that moment as quite epic. And funny, which did not diminish its darkness in any way. I even specifically cited it to one of my friends.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: TLEILAXU on July 30, 2017, 06:23:05 pm
It would have been better than what we got. The Q&A had a whole lot of unrepentant teen espoused by Bakker. "I intended it to be confusing!"/ "My devoted and slavish proof readers weren't confused so clearly passionate reader and first time poster YOU ARE WRONG".

Good lord, at some point you have to age and maturity out of such responses.

The Book is vague and easily/deeply easy to misinterpret at the very best and its highly unlikely you could take a step back and look at the commentary here, at Westeros, Reddit, RPGNET and Goodreads and draw any other evidence based conclusion.

I hope he changes that tone or the Reddit AMA is going to be...interesting.



"I meant the finale and denouement to be confusing/inspire vigorous disagreement/cause spontaneous outrage on all available niche sites" said no honest serious writer or communicator ever.


Oh and we are all just pretending the pandering Cunny loving 100 foot Dragon dialogue wasn't there, right? Because it felt like Scott was talking to his critics from the first firestorm he became embroiled in, with the feminists.
Lol'd. "The author didn't do what I wanted, he's an immature teen".
Stay tuned for the AMA.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: Dunkelheit on July 30, 2017, 07:12:02 pm
The Book is vague and easily/deeply easy to misinterpret at the very best and its highly unlikely you could take a step back and look at the commentary here, at Westeros, Reddit, RPGNET and Goodreads and draw any other evidence based conclusion.
Well, he admits that he has to resist the temptation to make everything a mystery, so this is probably a fair point. But what do you mean by misinterpret? Are you making the assumption that there is one correct interpretation? I think it's pretty clear that he has left things up for interpretation on purpose, and you see that from his interviews too. You might take umbrage with that if you like, but you can't say that it wasn't intended.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: CondYoke on July 30, 2017, 07:29:35 pm


Oh and we are all just pretending the pandering Cunny loving 100 foot Dragon dialogue wasn't there, right? Because it felt like Scott was talking to his critics from the first firestorm he became embroiled in, with the feminists.
I've actually read that moment as quite epic. And funny, which did not diminish its darkness in any way. I even specifically cited it to one of my friends.
[/quote]
Yeah, I loved this scene.  Great playing with the trope.  I mean really, if medieval dragons of the type St.George was slaying captured virgins, and could talk, I'm sure they would not swear. Yeah, right.   Dragons are creatures of the darkness and depraved. The fact that so many are taken aback at the c- word...
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: Dunkelheit on July 30, 2017, 08:12:19 pm
Oh and we are all just pretending the pandering Cunny loving 100 foot Dragon dialogue wasn't there, right? Because it felt like Scott was talking to his critics from the first firestorm he became embroiled in, with the feminists.
I've actually read that moment as quite epic. And funny, which did not diminish its darkness in any way. I even specifically cited it to one of my friends.
I'm also in the camp that this was a really good scene. I mean, are we forgetting that dragons were made by the Inchoroi? Of course it starts going off about cunny and maidenhead.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: Wilshire on July 30, 2017, 09:10:50 pm
...
Lol'd. "The author didn't do what I wanted, he's an immature teen".
Stay tuned for the AMA.

Pretty much my take. I'd love to here how  Spooky feels this response is somehow sophisticated and "adult"(?)/grown-up, as I can't figure it out myself.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: Blackstone on July 30, 2017, 09:19:50 pm
I have to say that I was disappointed as well. I enjoyed the book, don't get me wrong, but it answered only a few of my lingering questions, created many more, and genuinely seemed to "fizzle" as some people pointed out. I think every storyline except the Ordeal was superfluous to the story being told. Nothing in the four novels except the existence of Kelmomas mattered at the end of the book. This makes be think it was just filler. The same can't be said of the first trilogy, and it has taken the place as my favorite of his writings after the disappointing ending of TUC (which is the weakest book in the series in terms of both writing and narrative [my opinion]).

I don't think the ending is DEM, because as some have pointed out, the whole point of the series was the resurrection of the No-god. I do think, a person could make a valid argument that the appearance of Kelmomas was DEM. A powerful being shows up at the end to defeat (usually) the antagonist...in this case the antagonist is Kellhus (and perhaps he was meant to be the antagonist all along). As was pointed out, it's never really explained how Kelmomas got up into the highest levels of the arc (was he shown the way through a series of hidden doors? Probably. The fact that it has to be debated at the end of book means there's an issue [my opinion]).

It seems to me that, as Bakker has himself said, this concludes the ending of the story he originally conceived of as a teen, the story is lacking. I was told "just wait, the stripper thong will shoot across the room." But I don't feel that way. I will read the next series, but I don't feel the fanaticism that I felt following the conclusion of the other six books in this series. I think the only real question that was answered for me was: what is the No-god? Seems obvious now when I look back.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: themerchant on July 30, 2017, 09:23:02 pm
So much certainty and absolute positions i can see why the books didn't jive with you Spooky :)

What's the actual meat page count? 31 pages? 2 Chapters? Something like that?

Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: TLEILAXU on July 30, 2017, 09:28:25 pm
I don't understand why some of you guys expected everything to explicit and detailed answers to everything in the first place  ;)
Also, what does DEM mean? It's funny how you can identify Americans by their excessive use of abbreviations.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: themerchant on July 30, 2017, 09:35:00 pm
I have to say that I was disappointed as well. I enjoyed the book, don't get me wrong, but it answered only a few of my lingering questions, created many more, and genuinely seemed to "fizzle" as some people pointed out. I think every storyline except the Ordeal was superfluous to the story being told. Nothing in the four novels except the existence of Kelmomas mattered at the end of the book. This makes be think it was just filler. The same can't be said of the first trilogy, and it has taken the place as my favorite of his writings after the disappointing ending of TUC (which is the weakest book in the series in terms of both writing and narrative [my opinion]).

I don't think the ending is DEM, because as some have pointed out, the whole point of the series was the resurrection of the No-god. I do think, a person could make a valid argument that the appearance of Kelmomas was DEM. A powerful being shows up at the end to defeat (usually) the antagonist...in this case the antagonist is Kellhus (and perhaps he was meant to be the antagonist all along). As was pointed out, it's never really explained how Kelmomas got up into the highest levels of the arc (was he shown the way through a series of hidden doors? Probably. The fact that it has to be debated at the end of book means there's an issue [my opinion]).

It seems to me that, as Bakker has himself said, this concludes the ending of the story he originally conceived of as a teen, the story is lacking. I was told "just wait, the stripper thong will shoot across the room." But I don't feel that way. I will read the next series, but I don't feel the fanaticism that I felt following the conclusion of the other six books in this series. I think the only real question that was answered for me was: what is the No-god? Seems obvious now when I look back.

A skinspy collected him the night before,after esmi released him. I assume they then went to the Arc hours before any fighting
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: MSJ on July 30, 2017, 09:36:49 pm
Blackstone, what up my friend? Nice to see you around here again. To your point on how Kel ends up in the Golden room. Well, a Skin-Spy who looked like Esme came to him and took him to the throne room, i thought this obvious.

tleilaxu, DEM= dues ex machina
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: Blackstone on July 30, 2017, 09:38:32 pm
I don't understand why some of you guys expected everything to explicit and detailed answers to everything in the first place  ;)
Also, what does DEM mean? It's funny how you can identify Americans by their excessive use of abbreviations.

Deus Ex Machina (DEM) it was the title of the thread so I thought it would be obvious. My bad.

I have to say that I was disappointed as well. I enjoyed the book, don't get me wrong, but it answered only a few of my lingering questions, created many more, and genuinely seemed to "fizzle" as some people pointed out. I think every storyline except the Ordeal was superfluous to the story being told. Nothing in the four novels except the existence of Kelmomas mattered at the end of the book. This makes be think it was just filler. The same can't be said of the first trilogy, and it has taken the place as my favorite of his writings after the disappointing ending of TUC (which is the weakest book in the series in terms of both writing and narrative [my opinion]).

I don't think the ending is DEM, because as some have pointed out, the whole point of the series was the resurrection of the No-god. I do think, a person could make a valid argument that the appearance of Kelmomas was DEM. A powerful being shows up at the end to defeat (usually) the antagonist...in this case the antagonist is Kellhus (and perhaps he was meant to be the antagonist all along). As was pointed out, it's never really explained how Kelmomas got up into the highest levels of the arc (was he shown the way through a series of hidden doors? Probably. The fact that it has to be debated at the end of book means there's an issue [my opinion]).

It seems to me that, as Bakker has himself said, this concludes the ending of the story he originally conceived of as a teen, the story is lacking. I was told "just wait, the stripper thong will shoot across the room." But I don't feel that way. I will read the next series, but I don't feel the fanaticism that I felt following the conclusion of the other six books in this series. I think the only real question that was answered for me was: what is the No-god? Seems obvious now when I look back.

A skinspy collected him the night before,after esmi released him. I assume they then went to the Arc hours before any fighting

Yes, I realize that happened in the book. The fact that we then stopped following the storyline of Kelmomas until he shows up in the golden room seems like a cheap way to make a surprise happen.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: TLEILAXU on July 30, 2017, 09:38:43 pm
Ah, that was kinda obvious in hindsight... Thanks.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: Blackstone on July 30, 2017, 09:42:37 pm
Blackstone, what up my friend? Nice to see you around here again. To your point on how Kel ends up in the Golden room. Well, a Skin-Spy who looked like Esme came to him and took him to the throne room, i thought this obvious.

tleilaxu, DEM= dues ex machina
Hey, buddy!

Yeah, I am sure that's how it happened. The fact that it all happened off screen seems a little weak, but that's not the point. His appearance at the end to defeat Kellhus is what could be considered DEM. I'm not sure it bothers me, but I think that's what it could most accurately be described as.

Ah, that was kinda obvious in hindsight... Thanks.
You non-Americans and your hatred of acronyms ;)
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: codebread on July 30, 2017, 09:43:47 pm
I don't understand why some of you guys expected everything to explicit and detailed answers to everything in the first place  ;)
Also, what does DEM mean? It's funny how you can identify Americans by their excessive use of abbreviations.

Deus Ex Machina

Edit: Ha, I just realized I was a page behind. I thought your response was the last one in the thread! Ah well. Now you can be super sure about what DEM Means.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: Dunkelheit on July 30, 2017, 09:45:29 pm
Yes, I realize that happened in the book. The fact that we then stopped following the storyline of Kelmomas until he shows up in the golden room seems like a cheap way to make a surprise happen.

Well, we have the scene with the scylvendi and he also attacked Serwa before heading to the golden room, right?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: themerchant on July 30, 2017, 09:47:19 pm
I don't understand why some of you guys expected everything to explicit and detailed answers to everything in the first place  ;)
Also, what does DEM mean? It's funny how you can identify Americans by their excessive use of abbreviations.

Deus Ex Machina (DEM) it was the title of the thread so I thought it would be obvious. My bad.

I have to say that I was disappointed as well. I enjoyed the book, don't get me wrong, but it answered only a few of my lingering questions, created many more, and genuinely seemed to "fizzle" as some people pointed out. I think every storyline except the Ordeal was superfluous to the story being told. Nothing in the four novels except the existence of Kelmomas mattered at the end of the book. This makes be think it was just filler. The same can't be said of the first trilogy, and it has taken the place as my favorite of his writings after the disappointing ending of TUC (which is the weakest book in the series in terms of both writing and narrative [my opinion]).

I don't think the ending is DEM, because as some have pointed out, the whole point of the series was the resurrection of the No-god. I do think, a person could make a valid argument that the appearance of Kelmomas was DEM. A powerful being shows up at the end to defeat (usually) the antagonist...in this case the antagonist is Kellhus (and perhaps he was meant to be the antagonist all along). As was pointed out, it's never really explained how Kelmomas got up into the highest levels of the arc (was he shown the way through a series of hidden doors? Probably. The fact that it has to be debated at the end of book means there's an issue [my opinion]).

It seems to me that, as Bakker has himself said, this concludes the ending of the story he originally conceived of as a teen, the story is lacking. I was told "just wait, the stripper thong will shoot across the room." But I don't feel that way. I will read the next series, but I don't feel the fanaticism that I felt following the conclusion of the other six books in this series. I think the only real question that was answered for me was: what is the No-god? Seems obvious now when I look back.

A skinspy collected him the night before,after esmi released him. I assume they then went to the Arc hours before any fighting

Yes, I realize that happened in the book. The fact that we then stopped following the storyline of Kelmomas until he shows up in the golden room seems like a cheap way to make a surprise happen.

I was answering the original post which was (see below) this is a different issue.

". As was pointed out, it's never really explained how Kelmomas got up into the highest levels of the arc (was he shown the way through a series of hidden doors? Probably. The fact that it has to be debated at the end of book means there's an issue [my opinion]). "

I didn't realise there was a debate how he got there? I also thought it was explained.

I can understand it lessening enjoyment if you felt it was "cheap". I personally hate the end of TGO, when Kellhus goes into the Fanim camp and acts all weird, least favourite bit of the whole series for me.




Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: Blackstone on July 30, 2017, 09:51:58 pm
I don't understand why some of you guys expected everything to explicit and detailed answers to everything in the first place  ;)
Also, what does DEM mean? It's funny how you can identify Americans by their excessive use of abbreviations.

Deus Ex Machina (DEM) it was the title of the thread so I thought it would be obvious. My bad.

I have to say that I was disappointed as well. I enjoyed the book, don't get me wrong, but it answered only a few of my lingering questions, created many more, and genuinely seemed to "fizzle" as some people pointed out. I think every storyline except the Ordeal was superfluous to the story being told. Nothing in the four novels except the existence of Kelmomas mattered at the end of the book. This makes be think it was just filler. The same can't be said of the first trilogy, and it has taken the place as my favorite of his writings after the disappointing ending of TUC (which is the weakest book in the series in terms of both writing and narrative [my opinion]).

I don't think the ending is DEM, because as some have pointed out, the whole point of the series was the resurrection of the No-god. I do think, a person could make a valid argument that the appearance of Kelmomas was DEM. A powerful being shows up at the end to defeat (usually) the antagonist...in this case the antagonist is Kellhus (and perhaps he was meant to be the antagonist all along). As was pointed out, it's never really explained how Kelmomas got up into the highest levels of the arc (was he shown the way through a series of hidden doors? Probably. The fact that it has to be debated at the end of book means there's an issue [my opinion]).

It seems to me that, as Bakker has himself said, this concludes the ending of the story he originally conceived of as a teen, the story is lacking. I was told "just wait, the stripper thong will shoot across the room." But I don't feel that way. I will read the next series, but I don't feel the fanaticism that I felt following the conclusion of the other six books in this series. I think the only real question that was answered for me was: what is the No-god? Seems obvious now when I look back.

A skinspy collected him the night before,after esmi released him. I assume they then went to the Arc hours before any fighting

Yes, I realize that happened in the book. The fact that we then stopped following the storyline of Kelmomas until he shows up in the golden room seems like a cheap way to make a surprise happen.

I was answering the original post which was (see below) this is a different issue.

". As was pointed out, it's never really explained how Kelmomas got up into the highest levels of the arc (was he shown the way through a series of hidden doors? Probably. The fact that it has to be debated at the end of book means there's an issue [my opinion]). "

I didn't realise there was a debate how he got there? I also thought it was explained.

I can understand it lessening enjoyment if you felt it was "cheap". I personally hate the end of TGO, when Kellhus goes into the Fanim camp and acts all weird, least favourite bit of the whole series for me.

I don't know that there was a debate on how he got there. I just saw some people pondering it, and that seems the most probable way for him to get there. That's why I say, that's probably how he got there. My issue was the way that he just disappeared in the chapter where he meets the skin spy, and reappears just in time to foil Kellhus's master plan.

Yes, I realize that happened in the book. The fact that we then stopped following the storyline of Kelmomas until he shows up in the golden room seems like a cheap way to make a surprise happen.

Well, we have the scene with the scylvendi and he also attacked Serwa before heading to the golden room, right?

If he attacked Serwa, I missed that part. Page number?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: themerchant on July 30, 2017, 09:56:41 pm
I don't understand why some of you guys expected everything to explicit and detailed answers to everything in the first place  ;)
Also, what does DEM mean? It's funny how you can identify Americans by their excessive use of abbreviations.

Deus Ex Machina (DEM) it was the title of the thread so I thought it would be obvious. My bad.

I have to say that I was disappointed as well. I enjoyed the book, don't get me wrong, but it answered only a few of my lingering questions, created many more, and genuinely seemed to "fizzle" as some people pointed out. I think every storyline except the Ordeal was superfluous to the story being told. Nothing in the four novels except the existence of Kelmomas mattered at the end of the book. This makes be think it was just filler. The same can't be said of the first trilogy, and it has taken the place as my favorite of his writings after the disappointing ending of TUC (which is the weakest book in the series in terms of both writing and narrative [my opinion]).

I don't think the ending is DEM, because as some have pointed out, the whole point of the series was the resurrection of the No-god. I do think, a person could make a valid argument that the appearance of Kelmomas was DEM. A powerful being shows up at the end to defeat (usually) the antagonist...in this case the antagonist is Kellhus (and perhaps he was meant to be the antagonist all along). As was pointed out, it's never really explained how Kelmomas got up into the highest levels of the arc (was he shown the way through a series of hidden doors? Probably. The fact that it has to be debated at the end of book means there's an issue [my opinion]).

It seems to me that, as Bakker has himself said, this concludes the ending of the story he originally conceived of as a teen, the story is lacking. I was told "just wait, the stripper thong will shoot across the room." But I don't feel that way. I will read the next series, but I don't feel the fanaticism that I felt following the conclusion of the other six books in this series. I think the only real question that was answered for me was: what is the No-god? Seems obvious now when I look back.

A skinspy collected him the night before,after esmi released him. I assume they then went to the Arc hours before any fighting

Yes, I realize that happened in the book. The fact that we then stopped following the storyline of Kelmomas until he shows up in the golden room seems like a cheap way to make a surprise happen.

I was answering the original post which was (see below) this is a different issue.

". As was pointed out, it's never really explained how Kelmomas got up into the highest levels of the arc (was he shown the way through a series of hidden doors? Probably. The fact that it has to be debated at the end of book means there's an issue [my opinion]). "

I didn't realise there was a debate how he got there? I also thought it was explained.

I can understand it lessening enjoyment if you felt it was "cheap". I personally hate the end of TGO, when Kellhus goes into the Fanim camp and acts all weird, least favourite bit of the whole series for me.

I don't know that there was a debate on how he got there. I just saw some people pondering it, and that seems the most probable way for him to get there. That's why I say, that's probably how he got there. My issue was the way that he just disappeared in the chapter where he meets the skin spy, and reappears just in time to foil Kellhus's master plan.

Yes, I realize that happened in the book. The fact that we then stopped following the storyline of Kelmomas until he shows up in the golden room seems like a cheap way to make a surprise happen.

Well, we have the scene with the scylvendi and he also attacked Serwa before heading to the golden room, right?

If he attacked Serwa, I missed that part. Page number?

Don't know the page number but when she is fighting the dragon, someone uses one of the pouches to conceal a chorae from her. In the gloassary it states emilidis made 5 of them and they are called orthonganols (at 90 degrees) or something.

So looks like the poster is inferring a skin spy went and got the pouch sorweel dropped when Kel murdered him and then the skinspy or kel was the one responsible for serwe getting her right arm salted off.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: Blackstone on July 30, 2017, 10:01:36 pm

Don't know the page number but when she is fighting the dragon, someone uses one of the pouches to conceal a chorae from her. In the gloassary it states emilidis made 5 of them and they are called orthonganols (at 90 degrees) or something.

So looks like the poster is inferring a skin spy went and got the pouch sorweel dropped when Kel murdered him and then the skinspy or kel was the one responsible for serwe getting her right arm salted off.

Ah. Just one of those things we can only speculate about:)
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: themerchant on July 30, 2017, 10:03:33 pm

Don't know the page number but when she is fighting the dragon, someone uses one of the pouches to conceal a chorae from her. In the gloassary it states emilidis made 5 of them and they are called orthonganols (at 90 degrees) or something.

So looks like the poster is inferring a skin spy went and got the pouch sorweel dropped when Kel murdered him and then the skinspy or kel was the one responsible for serwe getting her right arm salted off.

Ah. Just one of those things we can only speculate about:)

Yeah Kel was probably already detained by the Dunyain but ajokili incapacitated all the skinspies which meant Kelemonas could then stroll into the golden room.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: Dunkelheit on July 30, 2017, 10:10:12 pm
Yes, I realize that happened in the book. The fact that we then stopped following the storyline of Kelmomas until he shows up in the golden room seems like a cheap way to make a surprise happen.

Well, we have the scene with the scylvendi and he also attacked Serwa before heading to the golden room, right?

If he attacked Serwa, I missed that part. Page number?

I don't have my book with me right now, sorry. It wasn't explicit, but I'm referring to her getting salted. The hundred chorea appeared as if it was being taken out a pouch. Invisible chorea in a pouch? Sounds a lot like what a certain Sorweel was carrying around, right? It got kicked away and ignored, but who was the one person who saw it? Kelmomas. I only got it after Kel appeared in the gold room, which was probably when I was supposed to get I'm guessing. So while his appearance was a big surprise, no doubt, it wasn't completely out of nowhere.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: Blackstone on July 30, 2017, 11:56:39 pm
Yes, I realize that happened in the book. The fact that we then stopped following the storyline of Kelmomas until he shows up in the golden room seems like a cheap way to make a surprise happen.

Well, we have the scene with the scylvendi and he also attacked Serwa before heading to the golden room, right?

If he attacked Serwa, I missed that part. Page number?

I don't have my book with me right now, sorry. It wasn't explicit, but I'm referring to her getting salted. The hundred chorea appeared as if it was being taken out a pouch. Invisible chorea in a pouch? Sounds a lot like what a certain Sorweel was carrying around, right? It got kicked away and ignored, but who was the one person who saw it? Kelmomas. I only got it after Kel appeared in the gold room, which was probably when I was supposed to get I'm guessing. So while his appearance was a big surprise, no doubt, it wasn't completely out of nowhere.

It could be. It's just something to speculate about, and I don't particularly like the need to speculate on a TON of things at the conclusion of a series, and I feel like that's what I'm left with. It feels like Robert Jordan-esque shit.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: themerchant on July 31, 2017, 12:39:12 am
There were 3 books in the series.The Prince of Nothing, The Aspect Emperor and The No-god. ( as was guessed years ago)

We have finished 2 out of 3. Now of course each book got arbitrarily split into smaller books, due to the way publishing is. (I don't know much about it)

When Bakker was a teenager 40 years ago he conceived the end of the series to be what we just read, Adult Bakker has different ideas.

A lot of the problems comes from an incomplete memory of the text.

I always go back to TGO when people were complaining how the Earthquake came from nowhere. Nothing in the text etc. Yet we had an earthquake in TWP, we had characters remembering earthquakes etc. It's just incomplete knowledge of the text.

The amount of pages devoted to the meat has been described as 40% or 200 pages. It's about 8% and 31 pages.

Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: Blackstone on July 31, 2017, 01:00:02 am
There were 3 books in the series.The Prince of Nothing, The Aspect Emperor and The No-god. ( as was guessed years ago)

We have finished 2 out of 3. Now of course each book got arbitrarily split into smaller books, due to the way publishing is. (I don't know much about it)

When Bakker was a teenager 40 years ago he conceived the end of the series to be what we just read, Adult Bakker has different ideas.

A lot of the problems comes from an incomplete memory of the text.

I always go back to TGO when people were complaining how the Earthquake came from nowhere. Nothing in the text etc. Yet we had an earthquake in TWP, we had characters remembering earthquakes etc. It's just incomplete knowledge of the text.

The amount of pages devoted to the meat has been described as 40% or 200 pages. It's about 8% and 31 pages.

It is my recollection from reading passages from Bakker himself that the follow-on duology is jut something to build on the main thrust of the story, which is what we just finished. Which is fine. And that is kind of what you are saying in the teenage Bakker vs. adult Bakker. As a reader, I am disappointed with the conclusion with the main thrust of the story. Do not take this to mean that I am disappointed in the "who won" or even the final conclusion. I am disappointed in the manner in which we got there and the manner in which it was executed.

TUC felt cobbled together in ways the other books didn't. I think the writing mechanics were poorer than previous books (as in he spent much less time or had less editorial input from critical readers). I felt like storylines that I was led to believe were important were not in the least significant. I don't care about the meat or the cannibalism or the earthquakes. I loved all that stuff. So what I am getting at is that adult Bakker should have probably taken a more critical look at what his teenage self came up and thought, "do I have to slavishly stick to what I dreamed up as a teen, or can I tighten this stuff up into a more complete and satisfying tale."

Some readers like it the way it is. I do not. It felt cheap.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: generalguy on July 31, 2017, 02:17:40 am
There were 3 books in the series.The Prince of Nothing, The Aspect Emperor and The No-god. ( as was guessed years ago)

We have finished 2 out of 3. Now of course each book got arbitrarily split into smaller books, due to the way publishing is. (I don't know much about it)

When Bakker was a teenager 40 years ago he conceived the end of the series to be what we just read, Adult Bakker has different ideas.

A lot of the problems comes from an incomplete memory of the text.

I always go back to TGO when people were complaining how the Earthquake came from nowhere. Nothing in the text etc. Yet we had an earthquake in TWP, we had characters remembering earthquakes etc. It's just incomplete knowledge of the text.

The amount of pages devoted to the meat has been described as 40% or 200 pages. It's about 8% and 31 pages.

It is my recollection from reading passages from Bakker himself that the follow-on duology is jut something to build on the main thrust of the story, which is what we just finished. Which is fine. And that is kind of what you are saying in the teenage Bakker vs. adult Bakker. As a reader, I am disappointed with the conclusion with the main thrust of the story. Do not take this to mean that I am disappointed in the "who won" or even the final conclusion. I am disappointed in the manner in which we got there and the manner in which it was executed.

TUC felt cobbled together in ways the other books didn't. I think the writing mechanics were poorer than previous books (as in he spent much less time or had less editorial input from critical readers). I felt like storylines that I was led to believe were important were not in the least significant. I don't care about the meat or the cannibalism or the earthquakes. I loved all that stuff. So what I am getting at is that adult Bakker should have probably taken a more critical look at what his teenage self came up and thought, "do I have to slavishly stick to what I dreamed up as a teen, or can I tighten this stuff up into a more complete and satisfying tale."

Some readers like it the way it is. I do not. It felt cheap.

Some readers will accept any drivel that comes from their favorite author as the words of God. I would hope that we all recognize that TUC while nice it was even published leaves a lot to be desired. How much of that circumstance is under our control is debatable

But it's clear tuc desperately needed a critical editor, a judging eye if you will and not a once over by superfans -- someone who could reign in bakkers bad writing habits.

I don't mind elliptical prose it's just that you need more than just ellipses

I don't mind a downer ending if it follows from the story which it did--the cliffhanger nature and the unclear connection between the main threads of the first few books is what irks me most. Akka and Mimaras excellent adventure and the whole momemn plotline barely integrate and even the parts I can see working are tenuously connected at best. Hell kellhus literally teleports back shits on everyone and then teleports the two principals back to the action. I guess he wrote himself into a corner to get Esme and kelmomas to their places. Also a kind of lame way tojustify the camera character.

The daimos and kellhus learning it from iyokus is critical but there's literally nothing that indicates that beforehand. The mystical head powers are just sort of thrown in. Where are the flashbacks like of kellhus learning in ishual as establishing text? In fact the lack of kellhus pov is a pretty great weakness of tae in general -- his thoughts are crucial to understanding the rest and without them everything feels hollow. It's a major strategic mistake IMO and makes a lot of TUC and the reveals therein much more artificial than they could have been (editing!)


Also a glossary and lore dump isn't a substitute for an actual story as much as I like the world building.




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Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: themerchant on July 31, 2017, 02:39:46 am
There were 3 books in the series.The Prince of Nothing, The Aspect Emperor and The No-god. ( as was guessed years ago)

We have finished 2 out of 3. Now of course each book got arbitrarily split into smaller books, due to the way publishing is. (I don't know much about it)

When Bakker was a teenager 40 years ago he conceived the end of the series to be what we just read, Adult Bakker has different ideas.

A lot of the problems comes from an incomplete memory of the text.

I always go back to TGO when people were complaining how the Earthquake came from nowhere. Nothing in the text etc. Yet we had an earthquake in TWP, we had characters remembering earthquakes etc. It's just incomplete knowledge of the text.

The amount of pages devoted to the meat has been described as 40% or 200 pages. It's about 8% and 31 pages.

It is my recollection from reading passages from Bakker himself that the follow-on duology is jut something to build on the main thrust of the story, which is what we just finished. Which is fine. And that is kind of what you are saying in the teenage Bakker vs. adult Bakker. As a reader, I am disappointed with the conclusion with the main thrust of the story. Do not take this to mean that I am disappointed in the "who won" or even the final conclusion. I am disappointed in the manner in which we got there and the manner in which it was executed.

TUC felt cobbled together in ways the other books didn't. I think the writing mechanics were poorer than previous books (as in he spent much less time or had less editorial input from critical readers). I felt like storylines that I was led to believe were important were not in the least significant. I don't care about the meat or the cannibalism or the earthquakes. I loved all that stuff. So what I am getting at is that adult Bakker should have probably taken a more critical look at what his teenage self came up and thought, "do I have to slavishly stick to what I dreamed up as a teen, or can I tighten this stuff up into a more complete and satisfying tale."

Some readers like it the way it is. I do not. It felt cheap.

Yeah everyone can agree a competent editor would be nice, especially for TGO (for me anyway that was worse than TUC)

I must be a poor reader cause i miss all the mistakes mostly, my brain seems to ignore them, like changing of how names are spelled etc. Most of it doesn't even register.

More "complete and satisfying" are completely subjective though, TUC is my favourite book in a long long time. I would have no problem with the series finishing there.

Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: themerchant on July 31, 2017, 03:02:55 am
There were 3 books in the series.The Prince of Nothing, The Aspect Emperor and The No-god. ( as was guessed years ago)

We have finished 2 out of 3. Now of course each book got arbitrarily split into smaller books, due to the way publishing is. (I don't know much about it)

When Bakker was a teenager 40 years ago he conceived the end of the series to be what we just read, Adult Bakker has different ideas.

A lot of the problems comes from an incomplete memory of the text.

I always go back to TGO when people were complaining how the Earthquake came from nowhere. Nothing in the text etc. Yet we had an earthquake in TWP, we had characters remembering earthquakes etc. It's just incomplete knowledge of the text.

The amount of pages devoted to the meat has been described as 40% or 200 pages. It's about 8% and 31 pages.

It is my recollection from reading passages from Bakker himself that the follow-on duology is jut something to build on the main thrust of the story, which is what we just finished. Which is fine. And that is kind of what you are saying in the teenage Bakker vs. adult Bakker. As a reader, I am disappointed with the conclusion with the main thrust of the story. Do not take this to mean that I am disappointed in the "who won" or even the final conclusion. I am disappointed in the manner in which we got there and the manner in which it was executed.

TUC felt cobbled together in ways the other books didn't. I think the writing mechanics were poorer than previous books (as in he spent much less time or had less editorial input from critical readers). I felt like storylines that I was led to believe were important were not in the least significant. I don't care about the meat or the cannibalism or the earthquakes. I loved all that stuff. So what I am getting at is that adult Bakker should have probably taken a more critical look at what his teenage self came up and thought, "do I have to slavishly stick to what I dreamed up as a teen, or can I tighten this stuff up into a more complete and satisfying tale."

Some readers like it the way it is. I do not. It felt cheap.

Some readers will accept any drivel that comes from their favorite author as the words of God. I would hope that we all recognize that TUC while nice it was even published leaves a lot to be desired. How much of that circumstance is under our control is debatable

I don't think readers confusing the words of an author for the entity that created everything is really actually a problem in real life lol. So much melodrama. What's this need to invent little narratives about readers? It's strange, it's prevalent on that other forum too. Let's talk about the books not our poorly sculpted stereotype of the readers.

Yes an editor would be great.

Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: generalguy on July 31, 2017, 03:22:21 am
There were 3 books in the series.The Prince of Nothing, The Aspect Emperor and The No-god. ( as was guessed years ago)

We have finished 2 out of 3. Now of course each book got arbitrarily split into smaller books, due to the way publishing is. (I don't know much about it)

When Bakker was a teenager 40 years ago he conceived the end of the series to be what we just read, Adult Bakker has different ideas.

A lot of the problems comes from an incomplete memory of the text.

I always go back to TGO when people were complaining how the Earthquake came from nowhere. Nothing in the text etc. Yet we had an earthquake in TWP, we had characters remembering earthquakes etc. It's just incomplete knowledge of the text.

The amount of pages devoted to the meat has been described as 40% or 200 pages. It's about 8% and 31 pages.

It is my recollection from reading passages from Bakker himself that the follow-on duology is jut something to build on the main thrust of the story, which is what we just finished. Which is fine. And that is kind of what you are saying in the teenage Bakker vs. adult Bakker. As a reader, I am disappointed with the conclusion with the main thrust of the story. Do not take this to mean that I am disappointed in the "who won" or even the final conclusion. I am disappointed in the manner in which we got there and the manner in which it was executed.

TUC felt cobbled together in ways the other books didn't. I think the writing mechanics were poorer than previous books (as in he spent much less time or had less editorial input from critical readers). I felt like storylines that I was led to believe were important were not in the least significant. I don't care about the meat or the cannibalism or the earthquakes. I loved all that stuff. So what I am getting at is that adult Bakker should have probably taken a more critical look at what his teenage self came up and thought, "do I have to slavishly stick to what I dreamed up as a teen, or can I tighten this stuff up into a more complete and satisfying tale."

Some readers like it the way it is. I do not. It felt cheap.

Some readers will accept any drivel that comes from their favorite author as the words of God. I would hope that we all recognize that TUC while nice it was even published leaves a lot to be desired. How much of that circumstance is under our control is debatable

I don't think readers confusing the words of an author for the entity that created everything is really actually a problem in real life lol. So much melodrama. What's this need to invent little narratives about readers? It's strange, it's prevalent on that other forum too. Let's talk about the books not our poorly sculpted stereotype of the readers.

Yes an editor would be great.
Fair enough.

I do think some of the defense of TUC is leaning a bit too heavily toward slavish acceptance of poor plotting and unclear writing being accepted as just a stylistic choice but to each their own.


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Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: themerchant on July 31, 2017, 03:38:14 am
There were 3 books in the series.The Prince of Nothing, The Aspect Emperor and The No-god. ( as was guessed years ago)

We have finished 2 out of 3. Now of course each book got arbitrarily split into smaller books, due to the way publishing is. (I don't know much about it)

When Bakker was a teenager 40 years ago he conceived the end of the series to be what we just read, Adult Bakker has different ideas.

A lot of the problems comes from an incomplete memory of the text.

I always go back to TGO when people were complaining how the Earthquake came from nowhere. Nothing in the text etc. Yet we had an earthquake in TWP, we had characters remembering earthquakes etc. It's just incomplete knowledge of the text.

The amount of pages devoted to the meat has been described as 40% or 200 pages. It's about 8% and 31 pages.

It is my recollection from reading passages from Bakker himself that the follow-on duology is jut something to build on the main thrust of the story, which is what we just finished. Which is fine. And that is kind of what you are saying in the teenage Bakker vs. adult Bakker. As a reader, I am disappointed with the conclusion with the main thrust of the story. Do not take this to mean that I am disappointed in the "who won" or even the final conclusion. I am disappointed in the manner in which we got there and the manner in which it was executed.

TUC felt cobbled together in ways the other books didn't. I think the writing mechanics were poorer than previous books (as in he spent much less time or had less editorial input from critical readers). I felt like storylines that I was led to believe were important were not in the least significant. I don't care about the meat or the cannibalism or the earthquakes. I loved all that stuff. So what I am getting at is that adult Bakker should have probably taken a more critical look at what his teenage self came up and thought, "do I have to slavishly stick to what I dreamed up as a teen, or can I tighten this stuff up into a more complete and satisfying tale."

Some readers like it the way it is. I do not. It felt cheap.

Some readers will accept any drivel that comes from their favorite author as the words of God. I would hope that we all recognize that TUC while nice it was even published leaves a lot to be desired. How much of that circumstance is under our control is debatable

I don't think readers confusing the words of an author for the entity that created everything is really actually a problem in real life lol. So much melodrama. What's this need to invent little narratives about readers? It's strange, it's prevalent on that other forum too. Let's talk about the books not our poorly sculpted stereotype of the readers.

Yes an editor would be great.
Fair enough.

I do think some of the defense of TUC is leaning a bit too heavily toward slavish acceptance of poor plotting and unclear writing being accepted as just a stylistic choice but to each their own.


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Folk will be biased, no other way. I personally hated the part of TGO where Kellhus comes back to the Fanim and tells jokes etc. It bothers me even more since in the first chapter of TUC Kellhus is back to his serene self.

That's why TGO is my least favourite book in the series.

TUC didn't have anything like that for me personally.

I think everyone would agree the book could have been improved by a competent editor.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: Redeagl on July 31, 2017, 03:52:33 am
I never thought TUC would be the ending. Just a major point near the end of the series that he liked and if the worst happen, won't mind to stop or at least rest at for some time. I don't want to appear like a know-it all elitist but, the forum is named THE SECOND APOCALYPSE. Before I bought the then released 5 books of the series, I googled a bit and found out that Bakker is planning a third sub series. That was 2014, nothing new. While I was reading PoN I "guessed" that the NG have to be resurrected successfully at some point and the Consult have to win ( at least momentarily)  somehow. So, I didn't detest the ending at all. Despite what Bakker said ( or at least how it was mostly interpreted) .and tbh, this whole sub series thing hurt Bakker far more than it helped him. It would have been better if TSA was the official name of the books and it was one whole big series with Bakker giving the sub series names unofficially rather than what we got.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: TLEILAXU on July 31, 2017, 03:58:03 am
I honestly didn't know there would be a third series before after I already finished TUC and came here to talk about it, and even then I felt it'd be a good place to end. I agree that the whole series within series thing is a bit unnecessary and confusing. You can't really just pick up TJE without having read PoN first anyway.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: Blackstone on July 31, 2017, 04:05:43 am

Fair enough.

I do think some of the defense of TUC is leaning a bit too heavily toward slavish acceptance of poor plotting and unclear writing being accepted as just a stylistic choice but to each their own.


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Yes. I would agree with that. Because I don't feel at all satisfied. The Momemn story line was pointless, other than to set up Kelmomas. Meppa was unnecessary to the entire 4 book series, other than to give some sort of conflict to the Momemn storyline. I think better plotting could have cut 90% of that out of the book.

Malowebi was only useful as a POV to counterbalance the above.

Sorweel had no impact on the end of the story. He literally did nothing that had a lasting impact on the story other than die, thereby driving the final wedge between Kellhus and Kelmomas.

The Ishterebinth sections were ultimately a non-factor. Some Non-men showed up at the end, but I'm guessing there were four pages at most (don't have the book handy to check) of them battling.

The Scylvendi were a non-factor. They never attacked the GO in a meaningful way.

Mimara and Achamian did nothing. She didn't even apprehend Kellhus with the Judging Eye, which would have offered some insight into Kellhus. And some sort of bold, heroic action on her part would have quashed all the people that cry misogyny. But had they never showed up at the battle, nothing would have changed.

I point all this out because it reflects poor plotting. The fact that none of the above came to nothing or very little is what makes me feel like this book fizzled.

I loved the series. I "liked" the book insomuch as it wrapped up the story. It was ultimately a letdown, because I feel like a lot of decisions were made to draw out the series for more books and more money (a la George RR Martin). It's not enough that huge sections of the book are just "enjoyable to read." They need to have some sort of purpose to justify their existence or the whole thing just looks like loose plotting.

The biggest writing peeve that I had was the figurative language. It was overused to the point of distraction and was sometimes completely nonsensical.
He didn't so much seethe as become a macabre specter of dashed hopes and dreams.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: Blackstone on July 31, 2017, 04:08:20 am
I never thought TUC would be the ending. Just a major point near the end of the series that he liked and if the worst happen, won't mind to stop or at least rest at for some time. I don't want to appear like a know-it all elitist but, the forum is named THE SECOND APOCALYPSE. Before I bought the then released 5 books of the series, I googled a bit and found out that Bakker is planning a third sub series. That was 2014, nothing new. While I was reading PoN I "guessed" that the NG have to be resurrected successfully at some point and the Consult have to win ( at least momentarily)  somehow. So, I didn't detest the ending at all. Despite what Bakker said ( or at least how it was mostly interpreted) .and tbh, this whole sub series thing hurt Bakker far more than it helped him. It would have been better if TSA was the official name of the books and it was one whole big series with Bakker giving the sub series names unofficially rather than what we got.

My issue isn't with how it ended. I'm perfectly fine with the Unholy Consult winning and the resurrection.

Edit - This was a series. PoN was a series and I was satisfied by the beginning, middle, and end. All of the threads were drawn together and had some impact on each other. TAE was a series and the same cannot be said for all the threads. Most of them were irrelevant.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: themerchant on July 31, 2017, 04:37:35 am
I'm honestly baffled by contentions like:

"Sorweel had no impact on the end of the story. He literally did nothing that had a lasting impact on the story other than die, thereby driving the final wedge between Kellhus and Kelmomas. "

What final wedge? Kellhus wanted Kelmomas released that's why he told esmi not to do it, that's why throughout the series half-dunyain have been telling esmi they wont say what kellhus would do because of the sum of the grudge she has against him and that would make her do just the opposite. It's why in the passage Kellhus tells her we get Akka's point of view and he can see how much esmi hates Kellhus.

I guess we just have different interpretations of what the end of story actually was, which obviously gives us different conclusions.



Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: Blackstone on July 31, 2017, 05:06:53 am
I'm honestly baffled by contentions like:

"Sorweel had no impact on the end of the story. He literally did nothing that had a lasting impact on the story other than die, thereby driving the final wedge between Kellhus and Kelmomas. "

What final wedge? Kellhus wanted Kelmomas released that's why he told esmi not to do it, that's why throughout the series half-dunyain have been telling esmi they wont say what kellhus would do because of the sum of the grudge she has against him and that would make her do just the opposite. It's why in the passage Kellhus tells her we get Akka's point of view and he can see how much esmi hates Kellhus.

I guess we just have different interpretations of what the end of story actually was, which obviously gives us different conclusions.
By final wedge, I mean Kelmomas killing Sorweel was what caused Kellhus to chain up Kelmomas. Then Kelmomas escapes, eventually is found by the skin spy, and ends up in the golden room. Had Sorweel's death not served that one small purpose, he as a character would have had no impact on the end story.

What did Kellhus tell Esmi not to do?

I'll admit to only reading an ARC, but it seems unlikely that the published version differs.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: Dunkelheit on July 31, 2017, 08:02:14 am
Sorweel had no impact on the end of the story. He literally did nothing that had a lasting impact on the story other than die, thereby driving the final wedge between Kellhus and Kelmomas.

His invisible chorea bag lead to both Serwa and Kellhus getting salted. I guess that doesn't count as lasting impact? And why wouldn't him driving a wedge between Kellhus and Kelmomas count as lasting impact to begin with?

The Momemn story line was pointless, other than to set up Kelmomas.
In other words: not pointless. Also, the White Luck is in the Momemn story line. Which both sets up Sorweel and gives us insight into how the gods work.

Kind of seems like you are skewing the facts toward your preconceived conclusion. I get that you feel like it was pointless, but that doesn't mean it definitely was pointless. I think if you took a more objective look at the story it would be much less cut and dry than you are making it out to be.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: Crtha on July 31, 2017, 09:31:31 am
But really isn't all fiction kind of pointless? In the sense that reading it serves no function except to reflect upon ourselves and a shared mythology.

Given that this middle series thematically focuses on endless greed, control for it's own sake, ignorance-of-self and nihilism as central pitfalls of the human condition - I find the bleak finale a fitting conclusion.

But as to the point of reading it? I can't speak for others or criticize their experience, but for me, it's an emotional and intellectual reflective experience and an exercise in improving comprehension that I found very satisfying.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: Madness on July 31, 2017, 01:40:33 pm
Lol.

Welcome back, Blackstone :).

tleilaxu, I am guilty of excessive use of acronyms and I am Canadian 8).

Otherwise, nothing that I currently need to add to this thread - as per generalguy I don't think my thoughts count for much.

Frustrating narrative expectations was part of the deal from the start. I was perusing ZTS for quotes the other day and people voiced basically the exact same comments regarding TTT. For my reading, TTT and TUC are the exact same book as technically structured, if the content in TUC is an order of magnitude more epic and awesome than TTT. Plenty of the "ambiguities" frustrating readers are the result of inattentive reading.

But, alas, I'm just happy to see the network grow. I care not if hate or love melds us, just that the noosphere evolves ;).

And, of course, the requisite *"everyone agrees that Overlook is either inept or malicious and TGO/TUC suffered for that."*
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: themerchant on July 31, 2017, 05:00:16 pm
That's the greatness/weirdness of humans two people can look at the same thing and see "not the same thing".

Blacktone. Kellhus tells esmi this in the scene where he and Akka meet again, and during their "argument" Esmi appears and asks Kellhus what happened with Kel and where he is, and he says something like chained up in lords so and so's , dont go to him and if you do attend to his chain.

Now of course i could be wrong and Kellhus is blind to her (as he says) and motherly love might be beyond his knowledge, and i'm inventing this narrative.



Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: Rots on July 31, 2017, 07:04:24 pm
So ive now had several days to let TUC sink in and i am still of the opinion that its a massive let down. So much space dedicated to agongorea, i still cant get over that. I feel like that is a story line that maybe 16 year old RSB might have thought was transgressive and heterodox and is really just a slog and boring. Its the first and only time in reading the 7 books that i have ever thought about just fast-forwarding through it to get to the next chapter.

So many seemingly important story lines that were teased out for thousands of pages and are not even mentioned at all or barely touched upon. Im basically fine w/the ambiguity of the end - weve seen that before in the RSB playbook. The dues ex machina of the dunsult has been bandied about here for years but i am fine with that. however, the fact that the most devious and cunning minds of man, inchie, and non-man came together in the Consult and then had literally millennia to game theory TSA and they just get run over by Dunyain faster than Usain Bolt can run a 100 is a bit much.

Heres a thought: maybe spend a few hundred pages less repetitively illustrating mans inhumanity to man and give us some of those pages back as chapters on the Ark like were done for Ishterebinth. Or literally anything else. This is the first of these 7 books i will not recommend to anyone and the first that i will not buy in physical form. Ive been a 99% lurker but i go back to ZTS and have been avidly a reader and a fan of this series from day one and this is still, after 5 days of reflection, a real disappointment for me.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: Wilshire on July 31, 2017, 07:09:52 pm
I'm curious, nothing in the past decade has been interesting enough to spend time chatting about? Curious, I think, how misery loves company. Welcome (back) though.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: Rots on July 31, 2017, 07:40:40 pm
I'm curious, nothing in the past decade has been interesting enough to spend time chatting about? Curious, I think, how misery loves company. Welcome (back) though.

Once upon a time i was an inveterate and deeply involved member of a lot of various boards in the net. Then, i realized that i value in-person communication more than 1s and 0s. So, i have vampire'd my way through the thought and dint of others while keeping my distance so i do not get sucked into writing thousands of words and spending hours of my time on 1s and 0s. I run huge networks that give voice/video/data access to millions of ppl as my day job. Mostly, i try and stay away from the day to day of boards and internet stuff when not working. Id rather be hanging out w/my gf, walking my dog, lifting weights, whatever, anything but the internet.

So, thats why i am 99% a lurker.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: Wilshire on July 31, 2017, 08:43:39 pm
Makes perfect sense. Thanks for the response.
That means your planning on coming to Zaudunyanicon right? I kid ;)
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: boneclinkz on July 31, 2017, 10:05:37 pm
Oh and we are all just pretending the pandering Cunny loving 100 foot Dragon dialogue wasn't there, right? Because it felt like Scott was talking to his critics from the first firestorm he became embroiled in, with the feminists.

Dread Skuthula, locker room talker, bane of Consult HR.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: Dunkelheit on July 31, 2017, 10:17:35 pm
Now of course i could be wrong and Kellhus is blind to her (as he says) and motherly love might be beyond his knowledge, and i'm inventing this narrative.

I don't think he claims to be blind to her, just to his own motivation when it comes to her. But I think he couldn't have predicted she would act the way she did. When he "armed" her against Inrilatas, he also armed her against himself. Like Moe sr. made Cnair hard to predict and control, Kellhus himself made her hard to predict and control. I don't think it's so much motherly love as being able to see through Dunyain manipulation making her actions unpredictable. But she has conflicting emotions about her kids probably also complicates things.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: boneclinkz on July 31, 2017, 11:05:21 pm
Now of course i could be wrong and Kellhus is blind to her (as he says) and motherly love might be beyond his knowledge, and i'm inventing this narrative.

I don't think he claims to be blind to her, just to his own motivation when it comes to her. But I think he couldn't have predicted she would act the way she did. When he "armed" her against Inrilatas, he also armed her against himself. Like Moe sr. made Cnair hard to predict and control, Kellhus himself made her hard to predict and control. I don't think it's so much motherly love as being able to see through Dunyain manipulation making her actions unpredictable. But she has conflicting emotions about her kids probably also complicates things.

In TPON, Kellhus reveals some of the Dunyain weaknesses when dealing with mortal souls. They do not assume they are dealing with rational actors; rather, they assume they are dealing with creatures that respond to stimulus that can be understood by those with the Dunyain gifts, while remaining unknown to the people themselves. In this way, the Dunyain can dominate them utterly and use them as tools.

Cnair is somewhat more difficult for Kellhus to control, and even surprises him at times, simply because his actions have become unfathomable. His detachment from reality means his actions no longer reliably follow the principles of the logos.

By the same token, I figured this was the reason Anasurimbor Serwe was not able to dominate circumstances at Ishterebinth. I mean, if anyone could rally the intact and bring the erratics to heel, it would be a Dunyain. She could have pulled the Tall from the Mere, and shown up at Golgotterath with a pretty fearsome army. But Kellhus would have known that their insanity could not be mastered, and Serwe learned during her, uh, time as a guest of the Nonmen that it was a lost cause and they had completely fallen from grace.

Of course, by that same token, I don't have any explanation why the nonmen showed up during the assault on Golgotterath. If they were hungry for glory and destruction, Serwe would have known and so controlled the circumstances, rather than the clusterfuck that happened once senile Quya found themselves on a battlefield with not one, but two different ancient enemies.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: littlegrice on August 01, 2017, 01:57:40 am
Dunk, that's interesting, but seems complex- kind of like the multiverse theory- if every time the gods mess with time, another version of the outside pops into existence there would be a multitude of forces on the reality of Earwa. That being said, I can see that these splits in time don't happen often- 2x was the white luck stymied. Dunno, I just think it is overly complex. ::)

Yeah, I would like to simplify this theory a little:
So events in Earwa changes the gods. These new gods can and already have changed the past. So when (or maybe if) the world closes, presumably this too will change the gods and these gods will think the world has always been closed. But these gods can not change the past since the world is closed to them, which is why we don't hear from them.

Pretty sure Kellhus himself, when talking to Achamian, said that the Gods couldn't see the No-God because he existed after their end, and therefore out of their sight.  I took that to mean that should they(the Consult) succeed in closing off the world, the Gods would die, or end, or whatever.  So not really a paradox, or multiple realities, just the mind-bending fact that the Consult lies outside of the Gods' knowing.  Also, the Gods have to pick and choose when and where to intervene, because Kellhus said they must ration themselves throughout all of time, lest they be hollowed out(or something close to that).  That's also why they failed to kill him, because to step into his time would have wasted their God-hood, basically.

OH! Just had another thought on this!  In the Watchmen, the crazy powerful blue guy talked about seeing all of time like looking at a gem.  You have all of it in your hands at once, but you can only see the side you are looking directly at, and you CAN'T see anything else.  So you look at something else(time from another angle) and now you can't see what you were looking at before.  There was once or twice in that movie where he knew something, and then, like a minute later, he didn't know it anymore.  Maybe the Gods are like that?  And then, when the Unseen Hand(the No-God) manipulates some event,  or simply acts, it changes what they THOUGHT they saw.  I dunno.  I think I'm twisting my own brain, here.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: Madness on August 01, 2017, 12:13:06 pm
...

Makes perfect sense. Thanks for the response.
That means your planning on coming to Zaudunyanicon right? I kid ;)

Not kidding, you should come to Zaudunyanicon, Rots!
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: Cnaiur vs Karsa vs Drogo on August 02, 2017, 12:38:41 am
Hmm. This seems like the best place for some questions. I had most of the same issues as OP, but still loved this book.

I didn't understand how Kel got to the top of the horn, but ok.

My questions are: if kellhus was so powerful, what even was the point of assembling the great ordeal? He could teleport there and dispatch everyone without a huge army, no? Hell, he even knocked down a horn. As someone above stated, it took more effort to deal with meppa than aurang and Mek combined.

Why did serwa bother with the dragon? It was an awesome sequence, definitely shes amazing, but why not just teleport to the top and help out? Awesome as it was, it didn't really seem necesary to fight that thing and die. She and others could have just gone around.

Why was aurax such a little whining bitch?

I just finished and these are the questions on my mind. I really enjoyed it though.



Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: The Sharmat on August 02, 2017, 12:59:52 am
This may be an error on Bakker's part but it's also possible Kellhus was simply far stronger there than he was at Momemn because he had taken Ajokli into himself and they were sitting right on top of Hell.

Serwa bothered with the dragon because even in good condition she can't fight after a metagnostic cant of translocation, much less burned and bleeding to death.

Aurax was presumably tortured by the Dunyain into obeisance. I don't know how you torture an Inchoroi without just getting them off but hey Dunyain are basically magic.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: Cnaiur vs Karsa vs Drogo on August 02, 2017, 01:19:26 am
Ah, that makes sense about serwa being tired after teleporting, but still, killing the dragon didn't accomplish anything because they didn't need to storm the horn.  She was really awesome though and I love her. Did she die?

Its too crazy to me that kellhus died by ankle chorae. Cannot process that yet.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: Madness on August 02, 2017, 02:07:57 am
My questions are: if kellhus was so powerful, what even was the point of assembling the great ordeal? He could teleport there and dispatch everyone without a huge army, no? Hell, he even knocked down a horn. As someone above stated, it took more effort to deal with meppa than aurang and Mek combined.

I've always thought he wouldn't want to risk the Chorae all alone. Kellhus isn't able to accomplish those highlights as the sole target of the various Hordes/Bashrags/Ishroi/Quya/Wracu/Inchoroi/Dunyain/Etc/Etc, right? He's able to accomplish them because his Enemy's attention is divided because he also happened to drag the largest army and sorcerous collective ever assembled (by about half again?) across the wastes of history.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: Frail on August 02, 2017, 02:25:18 am
Why after feeling being in a room with 100 chorae attached skin spies Kellhus just decides to hang around? And since it takes Kellhus at least a second to teleport out, why would he risk overstaying his welcome when the skin spies have supernatural physical abilities?

If Kellhus had died to TWLW in TGO it would have at least had a decent buildup, and there would have be a finality to it.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: Cnaiur vs Karsa vs Drogo on August 02, 2017, 03:50:23 am
Why after feeling being in a room with 100 chorae attached skin spies Kellhus just decides to hang around? And since it takes Kellhus at least a second to teleport out, why would he risk overstaying his welcome when the skin spies have supernatural physical abilities?

If Kellhus had died to TWLW in TGO it would have at least had a decent buildup, and there would have be a finality to it.

he's been slicing up skin spies since book one. he fought dozens in that great chase scene in (i think) TTT. the more interesting question is how did he pin the chorae to the floor-ae?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: Dunkelheit on August 02, 2017, 10:22:37 am
Aurax was presumably tortured by the Dunyain into obeisance. I don't know how you torture an Inchoroi without just getting them off but hey Dunyain are basically magic.

Well, we have seen that you can force someone to act whatever way you please with magic, and that creates patters in your brain that some keep following even when you are no longer under the spell. And Dunyain can do magic at much higher levels than regular sorcerers. They also like to stick needles in peoples brains and control them that way. I'm guessing some combination of this.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: The Sharmat on August 02, 2017, 12:50:24 pm
Ah. Overpowered and metagnostic agonies. That would make sense. Though contradicts their story that only Shauriatas resisted.

Kellhus didn't fear the chorae because they were meaningless to him. Kellhus-as-Ajokli is the sole measure of reality in that room, with Hell seeping out of him. They can't undue his sorcery because his sorcery is no longer a perversion of reality. Rather reality is just an extension of his will. Just like the Wight-in-the-Mountain at Cil Aujas. Until Kelmomas startles Ajokli out of him.

I am rather disappointed that for all their graftings, millenia of flawless memory and meaning, and allegedly alien minds, Inchoroi are just regular sorcerers. Seems to contradict earlier established estimates of their power.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: MSJ on August 02, 2017, 02:14:30 pm
Quote from:  The Sharmat
I am rather disappointed that for all their graftings, millenia of flawless memory and meaning, and allegedly alien minds, Inchoroi are just regular sorcerers. Seems to contradict earlier established estimates of their power.

I didn't see it that way. At Dagliash, Sacarress(sp?) throws a Cant at Aurang as Seswatha and it is like a little fly he swatted away. I think it just demonstrated how powerful Kellhus had become. As for Mek, what chance does he have against a God? Not much.

Aurax, i took to be brooding over the loss of his brother, now he's the last Inchie. And, i think there might be something to Shae is the Mutilated theory, especially when Bakker responds by RAFO.

But, yea, i get your point. On a whole, it did feel a bit of a letdown. But, when you look at through the lens of what it actually was...makes sense.

[EDIT Madness: Fixed your quote tag.]
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: Monkhound on August 02, 2017, 04:33:11 pm
My two kellics to the discussion: I don't agree with the suggestion of a DEM. Nearly everything was explained or hinted at in advance. Yeteven with all the hints, we still got surprised by the way of the ending.

How Kel got through the crowd:
I think TGO demonstrated fairly well how the Narindar observed by Kel moves unseen through crowds. It's not unreasonable to assume Kel picked up the skill as well.
How he got through the Ark, was probably the same way Serwa was going to use. Note  that how when the young Ainoni with the Cindersword arrives at the gate of Skuthula, the gate is already open. When the Kayutas and the Mandate arrive, the gate is closed.  I'm currently assuming either Kel passed through just before the young Ainoni arrived, or that we were deceived and that Kel was the Ainoni under a glammer. I mean: the guy killed off a Tall in a few sentences. But I'm more inclined to the prior option.

Concerning Kellhus's power:
We get multiple descriptions of Kellhus's Mark throughout TAE. I got the impression it got deeper and deeper, and more blasted throughout the series, based on the subtle difference in adjectives used in the PoV of other protagonists throughout the series. I've entertained for long the possibility that Kellhus was either having people (Zaudunyani) killed to become more powerful himself (souls basically being dinner) in the Outside, resulting in more powerful magic.
After TUC, I'm expecting him having to sacrifice the Ordeal as a whole, as damned and deceived as possible (remember the Meat), was the price for Ajokli's assistance (since there'd be more dinner for him). I'd even go as far as suggesting that the sacrifice of the whole "maxxed out damned" and deceived (!!) ordeal was a necessity for Ajokli to assist Kellhus, which is why we in my perception get the horrific passages of the Ordeal going bananas both in TGO and TUC.
Proyas is in that case indeed "saved" from being served as dinner to Ajokli by Kellhus, by being told about the deception, albeit out of necessity. The way we see Kellhus apologising to him in TUC in my opinion shows Kellhus's true (Dunyain vestigial) emotions in his love for Proyas.
The same I think goes for Esmenet: Through deduction based on Ajokli's perspective of time/ events, he sees what is going to happen in Momemn and he puts everything at risk to save her, unwittingly causing his endeavor to fail by bringing along Kelmomas.

I agree hints have ben given throughout TAE that Kellhus had mastered the Daimos. The whole head on a pole sequence, rumours throughout TJE from the "foreign" protagonists, and even through Malowebi in his first TUC PoV. We even know he's been to the Outside through the Head on a Pole passage in TGO. The fact that he's made a deal with one of the gods was, in my opinion, extremely probable.

And the biggest "damn, I should've seen that coming during the whole TAE" was the joke of the Celmomian Prophecy: Even the Dunyain didn't get that one. Kellhus could never become the No-God.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: Wilshire on August 02, 2017, 04:34:37 pm
Oh hey, on topic:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/6r3hba/unholy_consultation_r_scott_bakker_bares_the_soul/dl21toa/

Explicitly address the dues ex machina bit, which I think mirrors what has been said here, but maybe when it comes straight from horses mouth it feels better.

Love the question put forth by Bakker at the end there:
Quote
The question is what do you do next. Do you rationalize, chalk your narrative frustration up to my failure, or do you open yourself up to a new kind of narrative experience. Either I've failed you, or I've shown you a new way to experience meaning. Although I totally understand why people opt for the first, I just don't see what they gain from it.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: The Sharmat on August 02, 2017, 04:47:04 pm
Of course, that's also what an author that failed would say  :P
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: Rots on August 02, 2017, 05:09:36 pm
Of course, that's also what an author that failed would say  :P

Ha, beat me to it. That is awful convenient to say..

Makes perfect sense. Thanks for the response.
That means your planning on coming to Zaudunyanicon right? I kid ;)

Not kidding, you should come to Zaudunyanicon, Rots!

I would but its in the great white north, yes? I hope you all have a great time bouncing nerdanels off of one another!

[EDIT Madness: Fixed quote tag.]
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: The Sharmat on August 02, 2017, 05:21:20 pm
And the biggest "damn, I should've seen that coming during the whole TAE" was the joke of the Celmomian Prophecy: Even the Dunyain didn't get that one. Kellhus could never become the No-God.
I called it.

Ajokli demanding the damnation of the Ordeal would make a kind of sense. Wasn't Proyas described as going to Hell, though?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: Madness on August 02, 2017, 05:31:39 pm
Of course, that's also what an author that failed would say  :P

Ha, beat me to it. That is awful convenient to say..

I think the full quote does Bakker's response more justice, though either way I don't think he failed nor do I think someone who failed in his place would come up with an as articulate response:

Quote from: Bakker
I'm not sure I get your use of deus ex machina, since this refers to saving the day via arbitrary plot mechanisms. This is bad because it's lazy. The way you use it, it applies to all true-crime fiction, or any form of writing lacking conventional narrative 'closure,' doesn't it? And what's lazy about intentionally delivering readers to points that deny stable interpretation? It's hard bloody work, let me tell you!

Could it be you possess narrative instincts, the way we all do, that balk at the absence of closure? Some find it more difficult than others. And all this means is that you viscerally feel the problem of meaning more keenly than most.

The question is what do you do next. Do you rationalize, chalk your narrative frustration up to my failure, or do you open yourself up to a new kind of narrative experience. Either I've failed you, or I've shown you a new way to experience meaning. Although I totally understand why people opt for the first, I just don't see what they gain from it.

I would but its in the great white north, yes? I hope you all have a great time bouncing nerdanels off of one another!

If Ishoiya last year is any indication, it'll be less discussing Bakker and the books and more bacchanal (though, we drew the line at cannabalism and orgiastic excesses ;)).
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: The Sharmat on August 02, 2017, 05:34:13 pm
I think there were probably clearer ways to say what he's saying there but then, he is philosophy major.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: Madness on August 02, 2017, 05:37:22 pm
I think there were probably clearer ways to say what he's saying there but then, he is philosophy major.

Dude is High King Obfuscator!
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: Rots on August 02, 2017, 06:37:58 pm
Quote
If Ishoiya last year is any indication, it'll be less discussing Bakker and the books and more bacchanal (though, we drew the line at cannabalism and orgiastic excesses ;)).

Ha! Knowing when and how to draw the line during a bacchanal is key. I salute your wisdom. :)

Also, i am far less convinced by RSBs answer to this question than you. Which is obviously fine, but i find his response not at all compelling. RAFO as he is fond of saying.. Basically, for me, my disappointment can be boiled down the fact that this was called The Unholy Consult and we got precious little Unholy Consult. That and epic slogs through agongorea = meh. TUC had been sold by RSB as being the final piece of this story as he envisioned it way back when. I was hoping for a bit more meat..and less agongorea filler when it came to the numerous story lines that were left utterly untouched.

Obviously i am happy that the next series seems to be officially official but ill go into it a bit wary for the first time w/his works. I feel like he overplayed his hand here a bit in terms of how TUC was framed/sold as the final piece to this story, and what it delivered.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: The Sharmat on August 02, 2017, 06:47:10 pm
I am curious as to what the terrible true wickedness of the Consult we were supposed to find out was.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: Wilshire on August 02, 2017, 06:50:36 pm
Rots I just think that at the bottom of it, we rapidly approach "it is what it is" category, where there's a fundamental disagreement  on the answer because it relies on personal opinion.

 There's no scientific consensus to be reached, my goal is to keep things amicable and conversation flowing. Fail as I might  ;) . His answer, or the but I quoted at least, is totally designed to trap someone into agreeing or admitting defeat.  I find the answer amusing for this, not that I think it brings greater closure for anyone on the opposite side of the fence. :)

Though it is nice to see that there are those here who have correctly guessed what Bakker would say. At least after this much time things are easier to see, if still incomprehensible. Doesn't make one any more "right" than "wrong" though.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: Baztek on August 02, 2017, 06:53:14 pm
I loved the book but man I still don't have a clue what the fuck happened.

Kellhus clearly understands Damnation is a problem - so why make a pact with Ajokli, the greater evil, to crush the Consult and prevent resumption? Especially if he already knows the Inchoroi are supposed to win? Scott says Kellhus was planning to defeat the Consult all along, was he trying to take them out before he can really work on this whole Damnation thing? Just what's going on man? Yeah yeah, muh meaning crash space, but there's a limit to philosophical titty-twisters before it wears thin. It's a testament to how riveting the narrative itself can be that this philosophical mud-puddle underneath it all barely detracts from my enjoyment.

We got like 3 fuckin' different conceptions of the absolute, a whole clusterfuck of ways to think about the soul/the Gods' blindness, and what Kellhus was really trying to do/what happened in the end.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: Wilshire on August 02, 2017, 06:57:16 pm
I saw you in the ama baztek , he's got some hints in there.

But yeah, TUC ends as TTT. We have few answers , and I'm of the mindset that we've gotten all we'll get regarding information about the world.

Anyone hoping for closure should come to terms with it. TSA was built this way, and plenty won't like it.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: The Sharmat on August 02, 2017, 07:07:27 pm
I felt pretty good about things at the end of TTT so I can't agree there.

Kellhus and Damnation: Honestly, his solution seemed pretty Dunyain to me. He would avoid damnation by becoming a prince of Hell. Which, well, doesn't help anyone but him. And maybe not even him in the end since apparently Cnair is Ajokli? Cnair comes before Kellhus and is created as the Prince of Hate through Moenghus and Kellhus acting on his mortal origin to ensure his eternal rise. Cnair is the Absolute.

Kind of explains why Erwa sucks so much.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: Hiro on August 02, 2017, 07:59:34 pm
I loved the book but man I still don't have a clue what the fuck happened.

[...]

We got like 3 fuckin' different conceptions of the absolute, a whole clusterfuck of ways to think about the soul/the Gods' blindness, and what Kellhus was really trying to do/what happened in the end.

Yup. Those different and conflicting conceptions are what makes it more realistic, just like here on Earth there are many conceptions.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: Baztek on August 02, 2017, 09:20:55 pm
Scott's axioms here - the contradiction that is ensouled biological machines, the obscure, abyssal ground of causality, the necessity of ignorance to make everyday life possible, the dangers of plumbing too far and too deep with technology, the tension between biological hungers and higher-order thought, the collapse of firm meaning in the wake of late stage capitalism - these were discernible in book 1.

Now we wanted to see how they'd play out in the story proper, and while the narrative sheen is as lustrous as ever, I feel like it's just been, philosophically, a retread. I guess "there are no truth bombs to drop" is kinda the poiny but when he's talking about the g-string finally coming off only to reveal another one, just flesh-colored this time, it's a little disappointing.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: Bolivar on August 03, 2017, 02:28:01 am
I knew this was coming. When I was 200, then 300 pages into the book, I knew that there just wasn't enough time left for the story to go in a different, shocking direction or to offer a conclusion of finality to The Aspect Emperor like The Thousandfold Thought ending sequence did for The Prince of Nothing. When I turned the final page to the glossary, I knew this was the most insane epic battle I've ever read but a small part of me raged that this story is clearly far from over.

I just feel like this is not the book that's been teased since the publication of the White Luck Warrior. Sorweel, Mimara, Achamian, Meppa, Cnaiur, and the Survivor's Son all had zero bearing on the ultimate destination of the plot. It makes me wish we could have instead gotten what I was hoping to see from The Aspect Emperor, to really dive behind the scenes of characters like Maithanet, Aurang, Shauriatas. Both glossaries refer to the Mangeacca as a contemporary school, Kellhus saw them huddling over Aurang's body but now they all supposedly died out a long time ago? I don't know why this book is called the Unholy Consult.

There was no g-string. We only saw more Ur-Sranc, Bashrag, and Erratics. The Inverse Fire is exactly what we were told it is (which, I've been meaning to give my brother H some serious props for nailing it - that it's both a factual depiction of one's future damnation and the goad that the Consult uses to recruit talent). We were all getting psyched up for something that never happened. The No-God rising is the conclusion we were told was coming in the first chapter of the first book.

I really want to re-read just The Aspect Emperor because I expect it's going to resonate more now that it's complete and that these books in particular are going to age very well. It's clearly a much better written series than PoN, which is saying a lot, but it also has serious structural problems that make it such a far less satisfying story. A lot of fantasy fans like to defend a lack of closure by citing to the fact that these are large, overarching series. My response is always that the first three books here each had a clear beginning, middle, and totally unique, unforgettable end. The characters are completely different people at the end of each novel than they were at the beginning. If nothing came after TTT, you still would have read one of the greatest self-contained fantasy trilogies ever. So many of the TAE stories went nowhere and as amazing as Golgotterath was, my eyes really started glossing over the descriptions of fighting Sranc at that point. Again, I'm not scrutinizing Bakker for any of his plot point decisions, just the structuring.

And how can anyone deny the Deus Ex Machina at the end? There's no way that kid got to the upright horn!
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: littlegrice on August 03, 2017, 02:33:01 am
To be fair, Kellhus was simply too powerful, too close to the all-seeing, all-knowing.  His character has dominated for 7 books simply because there is no-one more potent.  He really HAD to die for anyone else's actions to actually mean a damned thing.  I still think we'll be seeing him again in some form, but never again in the all-powerful position he occupied from the end of the Thousand Fold Thought through the Golden Room.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: The Sharmat on August 03, 2017, 03:32:34 am
And how can anyone deny the Deus Ex Machina at the end? There's no way that kid got to the upright horn!
I agree with some of what you're saying but not with this at all. Kelmomas was simply escorted inside by a skin spy on the orders of the Consult. Why is that hard to believe? Not hard to get in when you're invited.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: Madness on August 03, 2017, 01:05:50 pm
And how can anyone deny the Deus Ex Machina at the end? There's no way that kid got to the upright horn!
I agree with some of what you're saying but not with this at all. Kelmomas was simply escorted inside by a skin spy on the orders of the Consult. Why is that hard to believe? Not hard to get in when you're invited.

+1

Especially on the back of a Cartilage-Monster.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: Wilshire on August 03, 2017, 01:39:34 pm
And how can anyone deny the Deus Ex Machina at the end? There's no way that kid got to the upright horn!
I agree with some of what you're saying but not with this at all. Kelmomas was simply escorted inside by a skin spy on the orders of the Consult. Why is that hard to believe? Not hard to get in when you're invited.

+1

Especially on the back of a Cartilage-Monster.

Yeah I don't get why that's hard. Kelmomas escapes the day before, is found by skin spy. Does it take more than 18 hours to walk from the ordeal camp to the golden room? Why wouldn't he be there?

Compared to everything else going on, this is a pretty mundane issue of walking from point a to point b.

I assume those that think otherwise have reasoning behind it that I just don't see. Can someone please do me the honor of pointing out the obvious?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: Hiro on August 03, 2017, 01:46:18 pm
And how can anyone deny the Deus Ex Machina at the end? There's no way that kid got to the upright horn!
I agree with some of what you're saying but not with this at all. Kelmomas was simply escorted inside by a skin spy on the orders of the Consult. Why is that hard to believe? Not hard to get in when you're invited.

+1

Especially on the back of a Cartilage-Monster.

Yeah I don't get why that's hard. Kelmomas escapes the day before, is found by skin spy. Does it take more than 18 hours to walk from the ordeal camp to the golden room? Why wouldn't he be there?

Compared to everything else going on, this is a pretty mundane issue of walking from point a to point b.

I assume those that think otherwise have reasoning behind it that I just don't see. Can someone please do me the honor of pointing out the obvious?

I'm guessing that people who have trouble with Kelmomas being in the Golden Room at the appointed time, have trouble (consciously or not) with the conclusion of the book.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: Wilshire on August 03, 2017, 02:08:57 pm
That's kind of a bold assumption Hiro, puts someone on the spot. I'll let them speak for themselves lol.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: The Sharmat on August 03, 2017, 02:34:36 pm
If that were the case it seems like missing something obvious. It's not a coincidence he's in the Golden Room at that time. A skin spy found him and brought him to its Consult masters. Kelmomas/Samarmas, in fear of his/their/its life, tries to be useful like he tried with Kellhus and mentions how the powers that be can't see him. The Dunyain keep him there as a contingency, a calculated risk. If what he's saying is true they don't have to contest with their brother, they can simply dispose of him and use Kelmomas/Samarmas.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: Hiro on August 03, 2017, 02:38:15 pm
That's kind of a bold assumption Hiro, puts someone on the spot. I'll let them speak for themselves lol.

Well, it's my honest impression. I did not intend to put anyone on the spot.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: Bolivar on August 03, 2017, 05:15:56 pm
Kelmomas was simply escorted inside by a skin spy on the orders of the Consult. Why is that hard to believe?

Because you're pulling this entirely out of your own ass!

I just read his entrance into the golden room and the end of his captivity - Esmenet brings him a file, as he did for Inrilatas. There is absolutely zero textual support that either a) a Skin-Spy brought him or b) the Consult invited him. Unless I'm missing something in between those two moments or an AMA answer (which, by all means, I'm all ears!) there's no compelling reason to make this inference.

You're doing the author's work for him.

I'm guessing that people who have trouble with Kelmomas being in the Golden Room at the appointed time, have trouble (consciously or not) with the conclusion of the book.

Not at all. I always entertained the possibility that this demonic prodigy of Dunyain issue, who could see sorcery, would be the one placed within the carapace. In my initial reads of TAE, I never ruled out that the voice in his head was the No-God, same as it speaks to Kellhus. He becomes completely enamoured in Inrilatas' philosophy of heaping damnation upon oneself to better achieve divinity, and admits that he would stack the screams of this world to the heavens if he had the chance. Of course I still feel the way this book was positioned was misleading but Kelmomas being the No-God makes total sense within the greater narrative frame.

I just wish it wasn't forced in such an improbable manner.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: The Sharmat on August 03, 2017, 05:37:45 pm
Kelmomas was simply escorted inside by a skin spy on the orders of the Consult. Why is that hard to believe?

Because you're pulling this entirely out of your own ass!

I just read his entrance into the golden room and the end of his captivity - Esmenet brings him a file, as he did for Inrilatas. There is absolutely zero textual support that either a) a Skin-Spy brought him or b) the Consult invited him. Unless I'm missing something in between those two moments or an AMA answer (which, by all means, I'm all ears!) there's no compelling reason to make this inference.

You're doing the author's work for him.
If that were true I might feel the same way but you seem to have somehow totally missed the scene where an escaped Kelmomas encounters a Skin-Spy wearing Esmenet's face that picks him up.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: The Sharmat on August 03, 2017, 05:40:41 pm
The passage in question:

The blond child paused to regard him, smeared blood across his cheek for wiping his nose.
An-Anas! Migagurit sputtered through blood. Anasrimbor!
He could feel the fall pulling at him. He knew that blood drained about his head and shoulders,
glazing the nub of the boulder ... greasing his way ...
The boy leapt upon his chest, where he crouched like a monkey, peering into his eyes. The
plummet pulled upon the tonguewalkers bulk, threatened to peel him from his every point of earthly
contact.
Where do Scylvendi go? the boy asked with insouciant curiosity. The Nail of Heaven conjured
a silver nimbus about his head.
Migagurit croaked and blubbered. With belief, came terror.
The boy nodded. Somewhere scary ... he said musing.
Like everyone else, then.
The man tried to cry out, but the boy had crushed all breath remaining. The fall continued clawing
at him.
Leave him, a feminine voice called from somewhere above.
A rib popped in the meat of him, so violently did the boy leap in reaction.
Outrageous agony, but mealy with the promise of respite. Migagurit somehow drew his head up
from his paralytic misery. He saw the boy, knife brandished, his stance wide and wary, standing
before a figure garbed all in black. A once-beautiful woman growing long in her years ...
The Empress?
The drop clutched at him, fumbled for some purchase ...
Youre not my mother, the boy declared.
A cross smile.
I can be whatever you need me to be.
The woman reached out her hand ... a mans hand.
The plummet firmed its grip, then yanked the Son of hard-hearted Shanyorta over the edge.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: profgrape on August 03, 2017, 05:43:45 pm
Kelmomas was simply escorted inside by a skin spy on the orders of the Consult. Why is that hard to believe?
Because you're pulling this entirely out of your own ass!

I just read his entrance into the golden room and the end of his captivity - Esmenet brings him a file, as he did for Inrilatas. There is absolutely zero textual support that either a) a Skin-Spy brought him or b) the Consult invited him. Unless I'm missing something in between those two moments or an AMA answer (which, by all means, I'm all ears!) there's no compelling reason to make this inference.

You're doing the author's work for him.
If that were true I might feel the same way but you seem to have somehow totally missed the scene where an escaped Kelmomas encounters a Skin-Spy wearing Esmenet's face that picks him up.

It happens the evening before the battle.  Little Kel hobbles and then kills the Scylvendi Memorialist.  Then he meets a Skin-Spy wearing his mother's face.   It's the penultimate scene in Chapter 13. 
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: Wilshire on August 03, 2017, 05:59:57 pm
Right, scene quoted. Hopefully that clears up the confusion. A lot of people read really fast and missed things. Forgivable as we waited so long.

BTW, who is Shanyorta?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: Bolivar on August 03, 2017, 06:11:47 pm
As much as I want to persist, I'm willing to take the L on this one

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: Wilshire on August 03, 2017, 06:17:26 pm
It wouldn't be TSA if we didn't beat the horse till it died, and persisted after just in case ;) . Glad you're back.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: Cynical Cat on August 03, 2017, 06:19:34 pm
If that were the case it seems like missing something obvious. It's not a coincidence he's in the Golden Room at that time. A skin spy found him and brought him to its Consult masters. Kelmomas/Samarmas, in fear of his/their/its life, tries to be useful like he tried with Kellhus and mentions how the powers that be can't see him. The Dunyain keep him there as a contingency, a calculated risk. If what he's saying is true they don't have to contest with their brother, they can simply dispose of him and use Kelmomas/Samarmas.

We don't even have to go that far.  He's an Anasurimbor.  He's valuable enough to keep around as a back up even if he reveals nothing. 
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: The Sharmat on August 03, 2017, 06:25:59 pm
As much as I want to persist, I'm willing to take the L on this one
I've missed bigger things than that in the series. It happens.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: Madness on August 03, 2017, 07:18:43 pm
BTW, who is Shanyorta?

Assumptively Migagurit's father. I'm willing to bet that Son in that instance isn't supposed to be capitalized.

It wouldn't be TSA if we didn't beat the horse till it died, and persisted after just in case ;) . Glad you're back.

Indeed. Welcome back, Bolivar :).
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: Dunkelheit on August 03, 2017, 09:11:13 pm
Yeah I don't get why that's hard. Kelmomas escapes the day before, is found by skin spy. Does it take more than 18 hours to walk from the ordeal camp to the golden room? Why wouldn't he be there?

Compared to everything else going on, this is a pretty mundane issue of walking from point a to point b.

I assume those that think otherwise have reasoning behind it that I just don't see. Can someone please do me the honor of pointing out the obvious?

*Puts on Dunyain hat*
They are using their subjective level of surprise as an objective measure of improbability.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: The Sharmat on August 03, 2017, 09:46:40 pm
The bigger question is what the hell files are made from in Erwa. Some kind of titanium microfilament?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: Wilshire on August 03, 2017, 10:21:00 pm
Yeah I don't get why that's hard. Kelmomas escapes the day before, is found by skin spy. Does it take more than 18 hours to walk from the ordeal camp to the golden room? Why wouldn't he be there?

Compared to everything else going on, this is a pretty mundane issue of walking from point a to point b.

I assume those that think otherwise have reasoning behind it that I just don't see. Can someone please do me the honor of pointing out the obvious?

*Puts on Dunyain hat*
They are using their subjective level of surprise as an objective measure of improbability.

Lol, I can dig it.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: Madness on August 04, 2017, 01:18:44 pm
Yeah I don't get why that's hard. Kelmomas escapes the day before, is found by skin spy. Does it take more than 18 hours to walk from the ordeal camp to the golden room? Why wouldn't he be there?

Compared to everything else going on, this is a pretty mundane issue of walking from point a to point b.

I assume those that think otherwise have reasoning behind it that I just don't see. Can someone please do me the honor of pointing out the obvious?

*Puts on Dunyain hat*
They are using their subjective level of surprise as an objective measure of improbability.

Lol, I can dig it.

Indeed :).
Title: Re: Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: gtownwr on August 27, 2017, 10:40:43 pm
I'm actually getting curious to know what various endings people were anticipating or would have preferred after the fact?

I wanted to see Khellus defeat the consult, but only as a means to the end of defeating the true bad guys in the series, the gods.  I wanted to see Khellus subdue the gods and save Earwa.  Call me an idealist.  LOL.  I would have been happy with Khellus winning but then turning out to be a bad dude who enslaves the earth (and it really looked like that was the way it was gonna go for a minute and I was fine with that), but that first one was my ideal ending.  It wasn't necessarily my expected ending, but it would have made me the most happy.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: TLEILAXU on August 28, 2017, 12:11:49 pm
The bigger question is what the hell files are made from in Erwa. Some kind of titanium microfilament?
You don't think a regular steel file would've been able to cut through some iron chains?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: Wilshire on August 28, 2017, 04:39:08 pm
The bigger question is what the hell files are made from in Erwa. Some kind of titanium microfilament?
You don't think a regular steel file would've been able to cut through some iron chains?

Jet fuel can't melt steel beams.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: Madness on August 28, 2017, 10:16:44 pm
The bigger question is what the hell files are made from in Erwa. Some kind of titanium microfilament?
You don't think a regular steel file would've been able to cut through some iron chains?

Jet fuel can't melt steel beams.

Get out of my head.

Earwan files can't melt dank memes.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: Zealously on August 29, 2017, 10:07:28 am
The bigger question is what the hell files are made from in Erwa. Some kind of titanium microfilament?
You don't think a regular steel file would've been able to cut through some iron chains?

Jet fuel can't melt steel beams.

Jet seed can melt steel beams?  :-\
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: Madness on August 29, 2017, 05:23:34 pm
The bigger question is what the hell files are made from in Erwa. Some kind of titanium microfilament?
You don't think a regular steel file would've been able to cut through some iron chains?

Jet fuel can't melt steel beams.

Jet seed can melt steel beams?  :-\

Certainly we'd have seen some evidence of that in the text ;).
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: Srancy on September 04, 2017, 03:29:22 pm
I would have liked more pages of meat orgies. I assume I'm speaking for all us, eh?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
Post by: Duskweaver on September 05, 2017, 07:35:30 pm
I would have liked more pages of meat orgies. I assume I'm speaking for all us, eh?
I'm sure you speak for all the sranc present. ;)

I'd have liked to see more of what the Witches were up to while all that was going on. We got a tantalising tidbit about them "going mad" when Serwa turned up and asked where they were, but that was pretty much all.