The Second Apocalypse

General => Author Q&A => Topic started by: C'jara-Cinmoi on July 28, 2017, 04:35:11 pm

Title: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: C'jara-Cinmoi on July 28, 2017, 04:35:11 pm
Meat can be hard on the digestion, I know. I have a little salad I can offer, for those suffering more extreme bowel cramps.
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: Madness on July 28, 2017, 05:19:40 pm
Welcome back to the Second Apocalypse, friend!

How is navigating the postpartum world?
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: Wilshire on July 28, 2017, 05:35:22 pm
Welcome back!

Might you be able to confirm or deny your attendance to Zaudunyanicon?
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: mostly.harmless on July 28, 2017, 06:01:22 pm
Welcome back!

Sent from mobile using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: Madness on July 28, 2017, 06:02:29 pm
Also - now that afternoon breakfast for the house is done - I do believe congratulations are in order. Seven books in and two completed series! Thank you for bending your self to the page over the past 15+ years!
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: MisterGuyMan on July 28, 2017, 06:25:13 pm
The one burning questions I have (and that you have a slight chance of answering) is when can you disclose the title of the next series?  If the answer is now the please let us know!

By the way, I seriously love your work.  If the series ended with Unholy Consult, the Second Apocalypse would be the greatest Fantasy series of all time.  I can't wait for the finale.
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: MSJ on July 28, 2017, 06:29:51 pm
Welcome Back Mr. Bakker and co grats on finishing your series. A few questions.

1. What is the name of the 3rd series?
2. Are you currently writing said series?
3. The tapestry that Mimara comes across once reaching the Ordeal, is it one commissioned by Kellhus or is it older, maybe even ancient?
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: Woden on July 28, 2017, 06:31:06 pm
The digestion is improving, day after day, but it's like eating a mammoth, it isn't easy to hunt it, eat it and digest it.
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: C'jara-Cinmoi on July 28, 2017, 06:44:27 pm
How is navigating the postpartum world?

After birthy.


Might you be able to confirm or deny your attendance to Zaudunyanicon?


I can definitively confirm. My brother might try to make a documentary of it, actually!

Also - now that afternoon breakfast for the house is done - I do believe congratulations are in order. Seven books in and two completed series! Thank you for bending your self to the page over the past 15+ years!

Feels hard to believe, but I have the squint and the stoop to prove it!

The one burning questions I have (and that you have a slight chance of answering) is when can you disclose the title of the next series?  If the answer is now the please let us know!

Yes, the title is, and always has been, THE NO-GOD.


2. Are you currently writing said series?
3. The tapestry that Mimara comes across once reaching the Ordeal, is it one commissioned by Kellhus or is it older, maybe even ancient?

The tapestry is ancient, and it's significance is unknown to Kellhus. As for THE NO-GOD, I have scads of snippets centering mostly on individual characters, but I still have a huge amount of decisions to make.

The digestion is improving, day after day, but it's like eating a mammoth, it isn't easy to hunt it, eat it and digest it.

You forgot to mention the hot sauce...
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: MSJ on July 28, 2017, 06:49:39 pm
Quote from:  Cu'jara Cinmoi
The tapestry is ancient, and it's significance is unknown to Kellhus. As for THE NO-GOD, I have scads of snippets centering mostly on individual characters, but I still have a huge amount of decisions to make.

Well, lets all put baby Kellhus to rest now, thank God. Thanks for responding. Nice to see you around again!
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: mostly.harmless on July 28, 2017, 06:53:22 pm


Quote from:  Cu'jara Cinmoi
The tapestry is ancient, and it's significance is unknown to Kellhus. As for THE NO-GOD, I have scads of snippets centering mostly on individual characters, but I still have a huge amount of decisions to make.

Well, lets all put baby Kellhus to rest now, thank God. Thanks for responding. Nice to see you around again!

MSJ, that was THE opportunity to say 'thanks to no god'

Sent from mobile using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: MSJ on July 28, 2017, 06:57:25 pm
I know you will not spoil future books. But alot of speculation on Kellhus, is he the other decapitant, in the Outside and so on and so on. My question, is if he is dead, he did make it to the Outside, correct?

Also, will there be a time jump in the next series or will it pick up where we left off?
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: Walter on July 28, 2017, 07:00:16 pm
Hi Mr. Bakker, huge congratulations on finishing The Aspect Emperor.  I thought the final book was the best of the lot.

If it isn't too spoiler-y, can you let us know what the image of Kellhus that everyone sees floating down from the Horn is?  It seems clear that the Judging Eye sees the Carapace beneath it, but what was making it ever look like Kellhus was there?  Was it the same kind of Tekne that the Mutilated used to project an image of Shae in the Golden Room, or was something else at work?
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: Wilshire on July 28, 2017, 07:02:43 pm
The No-God  :o , and ZDC confirmation  ;D. A great day. Thanks for coming by .
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: Woden on July 28, 2017, 07:05:10 pm
The digestion is improving, day after day, but it's like eating a mammoth, it isn't easy to hunt it, eat it and digest it.

You forgot to mention the hot sauce...

The sauce is a hellish mix of chili and wasabi, but I really liked it, maybe in a masochistic "srancky" way (my fault), anyway I'm eager for more.

Congrats for the book, I never read something like TUC. I'm still stunned.

The No-God  :o , and ZDC confirmation  ;D. A great day. Thanks for coming by .

Yes, great indeed, thank you, Mr. Bakker, you have made may day.

(http://www.prisonfreak.com/foro/images/smilies/121.gif)(http://www.prisonfreak.com/foro/images/smilies/121.gif)(http://www.prisonfreak.com/foro/images/smilies/121.gif)
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: Tyrin on July 28, 2017, 07:17:00 pm
Congrats on the book, Mr. Bakker! (and also, much thanks for writing a series that has brought me such entertainment!)

One question I've had since TJE was concerning the identity of "the traveler" that seeks out the Skin-eaters in the first few pages of the prologue. Is this traveler an agent of Kellhus, the Mutilated, or someone else entirely?

Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: Nil Sertrax on July 28, 2017, 07:35:32 pm
Hey Mr. Bakker thanks for popping in and answering some questions.  I only have about a million of them! 

I don't know how much you peruse this forum or some of the other forums where your writings are passionately discussed.  If you do look at these forums you may note that a prevalent reaction to the ending of TUC was confusion.  I count myself one of your most passionate fans.  I already read TUC twice.  I've read the first three books in the PON series at least three times all the way through.  I've read the four books in the AE series twice and am currently almost through my third read of TJE in anticipation of going through TAE series once again. 

I think that this series is my favorite fantasy series of all-time and second place isn't even close.  It is so different from almost everything else out there.  The beautiful prose contrasted with the grittiness of the setting and story weave a powerful spell.

With that said, I was thoroughly confused by the ending of TUC.  I thought that many of the scenes that were unclear upon my first read would yield greater clarity upon my second.  Particularly, I felt the like the entire conclusion, from the gold room forward, felt rushed and opaque.  I consider myself to be well read overall, a careful reader and fairly intelligent.  What I am not, is a student of philosophy.  I was willing to allow for the possibility that the failure to comprehend was solely mine as I am not familiar with the deeper philosophical underpinnings of the second series.  When a reread failed to yield additional clarity I came to this forum and to Westeros to see what others had gleaned. 

I was disappointed to find the lack of any consensus.  Is the ambiguity intentional?  I feel like the end reads like a reprisal of the scene from PON where Kellhus pulls Serwe's burning heart from his breast.  The imagery is striking but the impact is lessened due to the ambiguity.  If I recall, you've always stated that the editing of the "burning heart" section was poor and that you would clarify it if you had a chance to write it again.  I still have only vague speculations regarding how that occurred even given the benefit of the whole series (was he possessed by Ajokli or interacting with the outside in some way?). 

Are you disappointed in the reaction thus far?  Are we missing something that that you, as the author, feel is obvious or is the ambiguity intentional?

Regardless, thanks for taking the time to interact with your fans.  Despite my dissatisfaction with the ending I still think that that your series is fantastic and I can't wait to begin reading the No-God in the hope that greater clarity awaits!         
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: Anwurat on July 28, 2017, 07:37:18 pm
Is Meppa going to show up in the next series or is his story over?

Also, can you confirm that Kellhus actually failed in the end and didn't pull off some trick to fool Ajokli and the Consult?
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: CondYoke on July 28, 2017, 07:46:59 pm
Thank you for birthing the monster that has occupied me for the last several years! While I finished reading, I'm still gnawing on the gristle and chewing the fat, always the best part of the meal...
I wish I had a meaningful question, but beyond the title, I don't want to spoil the story for myself, so I will only ask that perpetually annoying reader question... how long?  Have you inked a deal yet?  Will it grow from 2 to 3 books, or are you set on 2?
Also, you mentioned on TPB that the film/TV rights were optioned. Have you heard of any movement on that project?  And if it moves forward, how much creative control will you retain?

Again, I can't thank you enough for writing the kind of epic fantasy I need to read as an adult. So much of the genre left me behind when I turned 20.  Congratulations on an awesome book and series.
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: C'jara-Cinmoi on July 28, 2017, 07:48:17 pm
And thank you all. From a commercial standpoint, this series pretty much has everything going against it. I feel as though it's been a tight knit circuit from the very beginning, which is to say, every bit as dependent on enthusiasts as on me.

I know you will not spoil future books. But alot of speculation on Kellhus, is he the other decapitant, in the Outside and so on and so on. My question, is if he is dead, he did make it to the Outside, correct?

Also, will there be a time jump in the next series or will it pick up where we left off?

Well, Ajokli can't find him.

The next installment picks up several weeks after the disaster at Golgotterath.

Hi Mr. Bakker, huge congratulations on finishing The Aspect Emperor.  I thought the final book was the best of the lot.

If it isn't too spoiler-y, can you let us know what the image of Kellhus that everyone sees floating down from the Horn is?  It seems clear that the Judging Eye sees the Carapace beneath it, but what was making it ever look like Kellhus was there?  Was it the same kind of Tekne that the Mutilated used to project an image of Shae in the Golden Room, or was something else at work?


Yes. It's a holographic projection, simply meant to keep the Great Ordeal - and the Schoolmen in particular - pinned in place while the Oar comes rattles back to life. As Madness can tell you, I rewrote that bit a number of times trying to make it obvious-and-allusive (on a reread of the Descent and the Shauriatis ruse I think you'll notice it), but hindsight is a motherfucker when it comes to threading those kinds of needles.


One question I've had since TJE was concerning the identity of "the traveler" that seeks out the Skin-eaters in the first few pages of the prologue. Is this traveler an agent of Kellhus, the Mutilated, or someone else entirely?


Just an agent of the Ministrate, I fear. I use a lot of throwaways to hide the players.
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: Woden on July 28, 2017, 07:54:20 pm
WOW, thanks again for putting an end to our misery. You're clearing most of our excruciating doubts.

(http://www.prisonfreak.com/foro/images/smilies/121.gif)
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: jurble on July 28, 2017, 07:57:15 pm
Scott, are you The God?  It would explain how the God can be both immanent (the books are composed of your thoughts) and transcendent.

The fact that the Judging Eye can see the No-God indicates that the God isn't asleep like Moe thought nor doesn't it care like Kellhus thought, since the very fact that Mimara possesses it indicates the God has some interest in the world, right?

Did you turn Kellhus into a baby (specifically Mimara's)?

edit: Oh, and the entire time I thought Kelmomas was supposed to be twin-souled, was he actually meant to represent non-conscious human thought via bicameralism?

edit 2: On skimming through the first-book again, I came to the conclusion that rage Kellhus feels when he sees Cnaiur rape Serwe must come from The God since Kellhus has no reason to feel such rage.  By the end of TTT, Kellhus is clearly communicating with The God.  At what point between the series did Kellhus convince himself that he wasn't a prophet and was there anything specific that pushed him in that direction?

edit 3: Sosering is one of the few Ordealmen described as being Saved as opposed to going to Hell.  Why is that?  Did he not engage in the rape and cannibalism or were there other contingent factors? Similarly, why is Esmenet saved?  Do sins only count if you commit them directly?  Does burning Caruthysal not count if you don't hold the torches yourself?
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: Nil Sertrax on July 28, 2017, 08:00:51 pm
"...but hindsight is a motherfucker when it comes to threading those kinds of needles."  Perfect answer! 

Can you please clarify the meaning or symbolism of the "head on the pole behind you" imagery?

How did Serwa overcome the effects of the Agonic collar that she had on in Ishterebinth?

As I said, I have a million of them!  ;^) 
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: Hiro on July 28, 2017, 08:14:00 pm
Hi Scott,

Thank you very much for stopping by! I've thoroughly enjoyed reading TUC. Aside from the story, I was impressed by the dramatic/narrative pitch of this novel and your sustained ambiguity, even after seven novels. The thrill and enjoyment I felt, wondering 'can language do that?!' The reading experience was appropriately Gothic, as rain and thunder slashed the city around me.

You might have noticed that TUC has sparked a few *ahem* discussions here and there.

After a reread this year, I was looking forward to an apocalyptic ending, you did not disappoint. The what I call 'our salvation' scene had a particular ecstatic power, the tension between how the Ordeal experiences Kellhus descending versus the reader's foreknowledge of the Golden Room. It created a strong feeling of unreality. Thanks for clarifying the hologram.

The Umbilicus assassination scene was a highlight as well.

As for the 3rd series, my guess was 'The Second Apocalypse', not too far from 'The No-God', maybe.

A lot of the questions have been put forward and even answered already. Something I was wondering about, what was the ultimate point of the Serwa vs the Dragon scene? The Ordeal's fight to enter the Ark seemed futile, considering the context of the Golden Room, and I don't quite see what the Serwa scene does for the narrative. Serwa's feats had been legendary already, I did not feel or understand the necessity of this setpiece.

Thanks again for your time, and especially the time you devoted to forging this golden and twisted experience.

Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: Kamakazikitteh on July 28, 2017, 08:32:02 pm
Hi scott thanks for writing one of the most interesting and unique series out there and trying to challenge your readers. Side not I think tuc has some of the best passages in thr series I could not put it down.
I have some questions about the little boy that was following akky it felt a bit weird not having him around for tuc

There is some parts in tuc that seem a little but unclear was some of it on purpose.
After reading that insane ending I think a reread is due especially with the akijoi stuff. by the end of the unholy consult it was official this is my favorite series ever.
Fourm posting on a phone is a pain in the scranc.
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: C'jara-Cinmoi on July 28, 2017, 08:51:29 pm

With that said, I was thoroughly confused by the ending of TUC.  I thought that many of the scenes that were unclear upon my first read would yield greater clarity upon my second.  Particularly, I felt the like the entire conclusion, from the gold room forward, felt rushed and opaque.  I consider myself to be well read overall, a careful reader and fairly intelligent.  What I am not, is a student of philosophy.  I was willing to allow for the possibility that the failure to comprehend was solely mine as I am not familiar with the deeper philosophical underpinnings of the second series.  When a reread failed to yield additional clarity I came to this forum and to Westeros to see what others had gleaned. 

I was disappointed to find the lack of any consensus.  Is the ambiguity intentional?  I feel like the end reads like a reprisal of the scene from PON where Kellhus pulls Serwe's burning heart from his breast.  The imagery is striking but the impact is lessened due to the ambiguity.  If I recall, you've always stated that the editing of the "burning heart" section was poor and that you would clarify it if you had a chance to write it again.  I still have only vague speculations regarding how that occurred even given the benefit of the whole series (was he possessed by Ajokli or interacting with the outside in some way?). 

Are you disappointed in the reaction thus far?  Are we missing something that that you, as the author, feel is obvious or is the ambiguity intentional?

Regardless, thanks for taking the time to interact with your fans.  Despite my dissatisfaction with the ending I still think that that your series is fantastic and I can't wait to begin reading the No-God in the hope that greater clarity awaits!         

I starting avoiding forums years ago simply because I found the speculation I was reading was jamming my own gears. I have good memories of Westeros, but I always hear the sound of axes grinding over there, anymore: no book is a match for ill-will, especially if it takes risks.

That said, the only book I put more work into was TDTCB, so your sense of haste actually has no basis on the composition side. I actually went through and rewrote the ending for 'clarity's sake' no less than four times (!!) based on feedback from different beta readers, which is what makes your appraisal of the 'general reaction,' to be honest, hard to believe. The Amazon and blog reviews don't reflect it.

Interpretative indeterminacy, or what I call 'Crash Space' in my philosophical work, is what this series is ALL about, so if you were expecting a traditional discharging of narrative mysteries, you were bound to be disappointed: the idea is to cue our meaning-making instincts in the absence of any definitive interpretation. Right. Wrong. Hero. Villain. Hope. Fear. Love. Hate. Life. Afterlife. Heaven. Hell. Violence. Healing. Golgotterath is the point where all these things collapse into uncertainty.

So for me, there were only a handful of basic things I had hoped would be clear enough to frame the intelligibility of what comes after. Frustration on the part of a good number of readers--we all have varying tolerances for uncertainty--is something I take as a sign of achieving my narrative and thematic goals. I would have been bummed if some hadn't reacted negatively. Blame the books, or (as seems to be the dominant reflex) blame me, the fact remains you have just had an up close and personal experience with your own tolerances. You have felt Golgotterath more viscerally than most!

Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: Woden on July 28, 2017, 08:56:27 pm
As you have confirmed the continuity of the series, I feel in peace again. ;D
I am a zaudunyani now, but, hey, it is not necessary to kill another scapegoat like poor Proyas.  ;)
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: H on July 28, 2017, 08:57:10 pm
Wow, unexpected!  Thanks for coming by us here!

I don't have a question prepared on short notice, so the first thing that comes to mind is to ask about Ark.  It was my presumption that the No-God apparatus (the sarcophagus) functioned differently before Ark-fall.  My supposition would be then that while Ark was fully functional, the souls of the Progenitors would have been contained therein, meaning that on other worlds, it would have been unnecessary to find a suitable surrogate.  Of course, the presumption then would be that what makes a soul a suitable alternative is not specifically Anisrimbor blood, but rather similarity to the Progenitors.  Could this be an accurate summation?

Of course, I doubt you can really answer this, considering the theme of the next series.
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: jurble on July 28, 2017, 09:01:00 pm
Is Mimara giving birth in Golgotterath meant to be a little meta-joke - that Golgotterath, the most wicked place in all of Creation, is now Earwa's actual Jerusalem?
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: MSJ on July 28, 2017, 09:04:50 pm
Quote from:  Jurble
Is Mimara giving birth in Golgotterath meant to be a little meta-joke - that Golgotterath, the most wicked place in all of Creation, is now Earwa's actual Jerusalem?

Do you see RSB's response to my question about the tapestry?
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: Anwurat on July 28, 2017, 09:07:39 pm
What's the significance of his answer about the tapestry?
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: jurble on July 28, 2017, 09:09:54 pm

Do you see RSB's response to my question about the tapestry?

The fact that an ancient knitter prophecized Mimara's pregnancy makes her child less important?
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: MSJ on July 28, 2017, 09:15:56 pm
No, its important because Kellhus doesnt know the importance of it. Hence, he probably had no idea Mimara had the JE, ergo no Baby Kellhus.

ETA: i think we should move this to a thread. Ill start one.
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: Woden on July 28, 2017, 09:18:25 pm
No, its important because Kellhus soesnt know the importance of it. Hence, he probably had no idea Mimara had the JE, ergo no Baby Kellhus

I infer the same.
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: jurble on July 28, 2017, 09:21:00 pm
Not to derail this thread, but the Baby Kellhus Theory (henceforth to be referred to as M+A=K) isn't contingent on Kellhus knowing Mimara has TJE.  Its only presumption is that Kellhus is now a baby.
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: Hoary on July 28, 2017, 10:11:28 pm
I've been reading the books and 3 pound brain for quite some time, and thank you Richard for answering what you can.

My question is more about message: Is it my understanding that the progenitors is something you see as something humanity is going towards, and ultimately, in your books so far is the implied message that too much knowledge and power, as demonstrated by both the progenitors (via tekne) and the non-men (via gnosis) - ultimately leads to damnation? Both of them stepping too close to the absolute, to bringing light to where ignorance should always rule. The only thing that will always win is absence - ignorance, the unknown. That is why the no-god was always inevitable, as it is the unknown. This is the same of the God of Gods, in a way. (I won't ask here because obviously you're saving that).

I guess what I'm asking is whether this is one of the messages you intend here, and that the moral we should see in it is the importance of leaving a bubble of ignorance, to respect the unknown's place and importance as defining us within what we do see. Since we cannot see ourselves we are both the ignorant and the ignorance. The importance of admitting ignorance, respecting it and take into consideration that not all pursuits should be taken, not all tracks should be explored.
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: C'jara-Cinmoi on July 28, 2017, 10:13:40 pm
Scott, are you The God?  It would explain how the God can be both immanent (the books are composed of your thoughts) and transcendent.

The fact that the Judging Eye can see the No-God indicates that the God isn't asleep like Moe thought nor doesn't it care like Kellhus thought, since the very fact that Mimara possesses it indicates the God has some interest in the world, right?

Did you turn Kellhus into a baby (specifically Mimara's)?

edit: Oh, and the entire time I thought Kelmomas was supposed to be twin-souled, was he actually meant to represent non-conscious human thought via bicameralism?

edit 2: On skimming through the first-book again, I came to the conclusion that rage Kellhus feels when he sees Cnaiur rape Serwe must come from The God since Kellhus has no reason to feel such rage.  By the end of TTT, Kellhus is clearly communicating with The God.  At what point between the series did Kellhus convince himself that he wasn't a prophet and was there anything specific that pushed him in that direction?

edit 3: Sosering is one of the few Ordealmen described as being Saved as opposed to going to Hell.  Why is that?  Did he not engage in the rape and cannibalism or were there other contingent factors? Similarly, why is Esmenet saved?  Do sins only count if you commit them directly?  Does burning Caruthysal not count if you don't hold the torches yourself?

I'm certainly not the God. My *brain* on the hand... And then there's the question of YOUR brain, too.

Um, Kellhus is no baby. (???)

Shrewd observation regarding Kelmomas (I wasn't sure anyone would pick up on the conversation in the tent), though it isn't bicameralism so much as the absence of identity that's the crux.

The Dunyain have vestigial emotions--the paradox is that the Logos actually depends upon it.

The Gods pick whom they Will. I think it becomes more obvious when you look at it through this lens.
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: Walter on July 28, 2017, 10:14:30 pm
Hi Scott, thanks again for answering questions.

Can you tell us what was up with the Old Father ordering the skin spy to preserve Mimara?  Even once we know the 'false prophecy' refers to the misunderstanding about the Anasurimbor returning at the end of the world I'm still not sure why they thought Mimara could prove beneficial to their cause.
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: TheCulminatingApe on July 28, 2017, 10:17:44 pm
Scott, thanks for the time and effort you have spent writing these books. They are like nothing I have ever read before.

In Prince of Nothing, there is a scene where Conphas describes war as intellect, and then later on, another scene where Cnaiur describes war as conviction.  Given this, should we see one of the key themes of the entire Second Apocalypse as a contrast and/or conflict between rationality and faith, and/or their implications?

Many of the words used to describe the in-story concepts have more than one meaning in English. With that in mind, how important to the overall story arc is the spiritual/religious meaning of gnosis?

Should we read anything into the use of the word jihad for the Fanim holy wars?

Are the head-fucking scenes a direct message from the author to the reader? ;)

How much is the Earwa No-God influenced by Karl Barth's concept of the No-God?
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: jurble on July 28, 2017, 10:33:13 pm
How should we take the Mutilated's statement that the No-God is the Absolute?   Is it just rhetoric on their part or is the No-God a mechanical device that somehow uses God?  I have thought that the No-God being a device that interacts or uses God in a mechanical manner would be an easy way to explain both how it controls the weapon races (beings without "Free Will") and the Bode (everything with "Free Will" can feel the emanation of Divine Will but aren't suborned to it).

In TTT, Kellhus says the Mangaecca squat, chanting about Aurang's real body to relay him to the Synthese.  But, the Consult's Brain Trust seems to be restricted to just Mek, Shauriatus, Aurang and Aurax (and then the Mutilated).  Were there any other Minds among the Consult for the past 2 millenia or has it just been those four?  If so, given their .. dilapidated status how did Consult programs like breeding the Inversi actually function?  How did they manage it with so little sane manpower? 

How much of the Tekne do the Mutilated understand?  They've attached batteries to a lasergun and fixed a nuke, but is it limited to electrical engineering (which they could understand just by taking things apart and using their big brains) or have they learned any of the fundamentals of physics, chemistry, or biology?

Edit: Is the Chair of Hooks meant to be a device we should recognize and go "Ha! The Inchoroi used a [insert] as a chair!"?  Because I can't figure out what its original purpose was based on its description. 

Edit 2: Kakaliol kills an Erratic and can't find its soul.  Did this poor Erratic actually manage to find Oblivion?
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: Redeagl on July 28, 2017, 10:38:08 pm
Do you have any predictions of when can we expect book 1 of THE NO-GOD series ?
2- still 2 books or a trilogy now?
3- what can you say about Kellhus' role in TSTSNBN?  still a major player?
4- How much metaphysical questions can we expect to be answered in TNG ( feels good saying that)  ?
6-  What is the deal of the Anasrimbor prophesy?  Didn't Akka's changed dreams hint at Nau-Cayuti being Seswatha's son, how was he the NG 1.0 then?  or did the Mutilated misunderstood it? 
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: Redeagl on July 28, 2017, 10:40:04 pm
Oh and 5- who was the person who met the Skin Eaters in TJE's prologue?
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: jurble on July 28, 2017, 10:41:06 pm
Oh and 5- who was the person who met the Skin Eaters in TJE's prologue?

He answered that on page 1, it's just a Ministrate nobody.
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: Callan S. on July 28, 2017, 10:41:11 pm
Interpretative indeterminacy, or what I call 'Crash Space' in my philosophical work, is what this series is ALL about, so if you were expecting a traditional discharging of narrative mysteries, you were bound to be disappointed: the idea is to cue our meaning-making instincts in the absence of any definitive interpretation.

What questions can we ask which wouldn't invalidate to various degrees this goal, Scott?

I mean, we could air our speculations as a fun dialog, but you'd have to act like a player as well and not a DM, otherwise it doesn't really work at a social level. In the face of the dude who knows, speculation dies as magic contacting chorae does.

And let's face it 'Sweet baby Kellhus!' is too funny to be dispelled so glibly!

Also I'll speculate Mim's baby will be two souled/twin hearted/a godthing perception avoider. What would you speculate if you were a player, man?

Edit: Also while I'm sure getting back into raw writing rather than redrafting must be exhilarating, might you continue at TPB in future?
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: Wolfdrop on July 29, 2017, 12:09:37 am
Is there any hopes for a further edited Glossary in future printings? While I loved reading it, all the character entries from TTT are lifted with no death dates added and there are loads of things I looked forward to looking up in the Glossary but alas, were nowhere to be found. Some I had hoped for, an entry on the Tall, the Cinderswords.

And is Glimir and Alamir the same sword? It's described as the High-King's sword, spelt as Kelmomas, and matches Glimir's description from TGO.

There's an entry on the finger locking handshake of Boonsmen...but not one on Boonsmen.

It's still my favourite series...that's why I'm so pedantic. ;D
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: SmilerLoki on July 29, 2017, 12:59:21 am
Hello, Mr. Bakker!

First, I want to congratulate you on finishing "The Aspect-Emperor" at long last! I'm very grateful for your work, and have no desire to blame it or you for anything. And I'm very satisfied with the ending.

I actually have quite a complicated relationship with the Second Apocalypse. I couldn't read "A Song of Ice and Fire" (and have no plans to do so, as well as only superficial plans to watch "Game of Thrones") because it was too violent and cynical for my taste. Instead, I've read wikis on it, following the bits of the plot and setting that interested me. When I first heard about the Second Apocalypse (browsing TV Tropes, actually), that was my first instinct, too. But then a strange thing happened. Wikis and spoilers actually clarified nothing for me, and after some consideration I began reading the books themselves. And so it is: "A Song of Ice and Fire" is too grisly for me, but I've read the Second Apocalypse (more than once, and will re-read it again). Needless to say, I have no regrets.

And the concept that first and foremost caught my fancy way back when? The No-God.

It's my belief that you've spectacularly succeeded in your quest to make a work that challenges, even abhors, but keeps people reading all the same, imparting thought and making them more then they were. It most certainly did in my case. If you're proud of your accomplishments, then you should be! I can only concur.

At this point I have two questions for you:

1. I should not expect Earwa to be perfectly thought out in every respect, since no writer is God, but there seem to be actualized philosophical principles in the world of the Second Apocalypse. Some of them are created by the Tekne (the Inverse Fire and the No-God), some have unknown origin (the Outside, possibly the Judging Eye), and some are sorcerous (Chorae, though I feel only to an extent). This troubles me since there are no real world alternatives to such things, and so I can't relate. Which means any kind of logical reasoning about the nature of the world of Earwa is fundamentally flawed (more than usual), because those are things in themselves, working as you want them to or as needed for the narrative. Could you comment on this issue?

2. In my opinion, there is (after the end of "The Unholy Consult") one and only one undoubtedly heroic character in the Second Apocalypse and that character is Anasurimbor Serwa. She was, of course, by no means perfect, but her intentions and actions (as I see them, and my sight is also by no means perfect) speak for themselves. She followed her father, because she wanted to save the world. She battled the Horde and suffered hardships of the Great Ordeal. She lived through Ishterebinth. She saved Moenghus. She was capable of love, and loved Sorweel. She mourned him when he died. She saved Mimara, Achamian, and Esmenet before attending to her mission, which makes her human as opposed to Kellhus. Oh, and she also killed a dragon with all its retinue. A dragon that kept the entirety of the Great Ordeal at bay. Some people argue that your books are misogynistic. And yet the most heroic character in them is a woman. Are you laughing now? I know I would be, quite evilly so!
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: TLEILAXU on July 29, 2017, 01:03:30 am
Shrewd observation regarding Kelmomas (I wasn't sure anyone would pick up on the conversation in the tent), though it isn't bicameralism so much as the absence of identity that's the crux.
Does that means he is in some sense like a Sranc? Is that why the Gods can't see him?

Also, can you expand a bit on what is meant by "You realized the Mission was not to master Cause via Logos, but to master Cause via Cause, to endlessly refashion the Near to consume and incorporate the Far." ? Does it mean that more and more elaborated machinery will converge to a self-moving soul?
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: CondYoke on July 29, 2017, 01:14:54 am
Did we see any of the Mutilated in previous books?
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: themerchant on July 29, 2017, 01:46:11 am
Not to derail this thread, but the Baby Kellhus Theory (henceforth to be referred to as M+A=K) isn't contingent on Kellhus knowing Mimara has TJE.  Its only presumption is that Kellhus is now a baby.

I find this theory to be as funny as it is unlikely. Hurry up and get him weaned and into his nappy Mimara the No-God is coming.
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: themerchant on July 29, 2017, 02:22:28 am
Will you explore the mechanism that allowed Inaru to reach from the void in a dream and tell Akka about the Consult.

Was it Onkis that told Inaru to run? (the first series seems to have loads of wee interactions that could be interpreted as "god whispers")

What did he find in Uncle Holy Quarters?

The skin-spy with a soul, Old Father Moenghus made him didn't he? So that Maitha could unveil him and gain the mandate trust?
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: Crtha on July 29, 2017, 02:35:26 am
I find this theory to be as funny as it is unlikely. Hurry up and get him weaned and into his nappy Mimara the No-God is coming.

"I'm Tiny Kellhus, bitches!" :D

Probably I am too late (it's the Erratic in me) but I'll drop a couple of lines in hope...

1. TUC imo = Fantastic work Scott, bravo.

2. C'naiur's fate: I thought this was an obvious case of inverted-ascension (inverted because Ajokli exists across the age, despite his temporal genesis occurring at the end of a frame of existence).

The Most Violent of Men becoming the Prince of Hate was a stunning scene.

But based on other readers' reactions I'm quite alone on that and so, I'm probably wrong about it.
Could you comment on that scene and C'naiur's AE storyline in general?

3. Would you say that Koringhus, Mimara and the Inverse Fire were intended to reveal the veracity of Oblivion, Redemption and Damnation or should readers consider these scenes with suspicion?
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: Bolivar on July 29, 2017, 03:40:24 am
Scott, congratulations on finishing the Aspect Emperor and thank you so much for sharing your world with us. We know how much you've fought to bring this story to us and we're fortunate to have this caliber of fantasy to enjoy. When I first read The Judging Eye, I thought the Sakarpus intro was the best opening chapter I've read in a fantasy, so it's only appropriate that you've equally raised the bar with the climax sequence at Golgotterath. Bravo.

I'm most curious about whether this really is the conclusion to the story you originally envisioned all those years ago. You once said that if you (God forbid) had an accident after publishing TUC, you would be able to die with the biggest grin on your face. Do you still stand by that now and if so, why? With the next installment taking place a few weeks after the Resumption, it feels like this cycle hasn't concluded yet.

Second, do you think your work over at Three Pound Brain has removed some of the mystique of the series? When I read the Prince of Nothing, the observations about free will and self-deception were harrowing in part because you didn't know whether they were a) devastating objective truths, b) illustrating the depths of cynicism of the POV character, or c) something interesting the character stumbled upon, conceited at their own self-destructive insights. Now it seems like the definitive answer is all of the above. After reading so much of your nonfiction work, these observations started to feel heavy handed in the Aspect Emperor, because I now know you're committed to disseminating this perspective, or at least getting folks from different walks of life to start thinking about them, in light of where our civilization is headed. Specifically, when I read Ben Cain's guest posts about the tension between mythopoeia and science, it virtually obliterated the mystery of the Inchoroi for me. The Golden Room sequence was everything I hoped for but there was a remanant of disappointment that some of the revelations were things I had already been posting about for years.

Finally, last year, I asked you on Reddit why Cnaiur and Kellhus reappeared so late in the narrative. It felt like Cnaiur really should've been there since the beginning, like the other three main characters, whereas Kellhus felt like you were throwing a bone to rabid fans, since he only gets a few very brief passages at the opening before his POV disappears again. With Malowebi being used to convey Kellhus' scenes without a POV (an awesome choice IMO), it seems like we were never really meant to get a Kellhus' perspective in The Aspect Emperor, making his Great Ordeal sections even more out of place. You said you would be able to explain this after publishing TUC - now I'm calling it in!

Thanks for engaging us here and I look forward to supporting your work in the future, fantasy and otherwise.
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: Wiseblood on July 29, 2017, 07:44:29 am
Wow...answered several burning questions right off the bat (and without any goading. Didnt even make us work for it. Thank you).
 
Many excellent question asked,  and I hope that any that can be answered will be. So, its 2 40 am and just want to keep my first question short: The glossay entry for the Apocalypse states the Mandate Schoolmen are not the recognized authorities on the subject. Who is?
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: Ciogli on July 29, 2017, 08:04:27 am
The identity of the Mutilated,  do you have their names and what are their relations to Kellhuss? They call him brother several times is that just a Dunyain thing or are they related?


Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: Ciogli on July 29, 2017, 08:06:34 am
On the Nonmen,  is that the last we will see of them or do the Cunuroi have one final hand to play?
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: Callan S. on July 29, 2017, 12:50:04 pm
Perhaps we can ask on theme - is there a theme in regards to Mim seeing Esme being 'saved'? I mean, it's nice that she 'got out', but 'saved'? I mean, it's rather like the news when they go gah gah over the lottery jackpot being X million - as if it's good thing, when that took hundreds of thousands of people losing for it to occur and for some single person to maybe win it. Here is there a theme where our idea of love or care is basically backed by hate? Like treating it as good somehow, the idea Esme is saved - but that validates the system, a system that tortures so many. How can you be saved/happy when it's as such horrific expense?

Bollivar: Nice post :)
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: C'jara-Cinmoi on July 29, 2017, 01:48:17 pm
The glossay entry for the Apocalypse states the Mandate Schoolmen are not the recognized authorities on the subject. Who is?

The author of the entry! There's allusions to scholarly rivalry and ego sprinkled throughout the EG.

The identity of the Mutilated,  do you have their names and what are their relations to Kellhuss? They call him brother several times is that just a Dunyain thing or are they related?


Ah... my first true RAFO! Sorry Ciogli. But I can say we are far from finished with the Sons of Imimorul.
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: C'jara-Cinmoi on July 29, 2017, 01:59:27 pm
Okay, so I just spent 3 hours typing nonstop answering every question on the topic summary and only the last two posted... Oof...

Sorry guys. I'm shaking with rage at the moment. Not sure when I'll have a chance to get back to these... You might want to save them for the AMA.
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: jurble on July 29, 2017, 02:24:23 pm
Oh man.  The very Gods work against us.
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: Wilshire on July 29, 2017, 02:54:43 pm
Scott, I'm so sorry to hear that. The website has it's failings to be sure. Everyone is glad you're here, and I hope you know that while it might feel like you wasted your time with the posts that didn't make it, all your time is greatly appreciated.
I wish we had better servers, better web support, and a less glitchy forum, but we just dont and we apologise for the gross inconvenience.

I know it's too late now, but a couple things:

I never submit a large post without highlighting it first and copying it. That way if the post fails you've got it 'saved' and can just paste it right after.

Often times if you hit the back arrow on the browser you'll get your whole post back as written - it's a cached version the website holds temporarily.

Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: Anwurat on July 29, 2017, 02:57:53 pm
Wait, the Mutilated are the sons of Imimorul? Also, such a bummer about the lost posts...
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: Redeagl on July 29, 2017, 03:35:27 pm
Okay, so I just spent 3 hours typing nonstop answering every question on the topic summary and only the last two posted... Oof...

Sorry guys. I'm shaking with rage at the moment. Not sure when I'll have a chance to get back to these... You might want to save them for the AMA.
Lmao..... Just.... Lmao. When my luck mixes with Bakker on the internet.... Yeah, nothing unexpected here.
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: TLEILAXU on July 29, 2017, 04:10:46 pm
Wait, the Mutilated are the sons of Imimorul? Also, such a bummer about the lost posts...
No, he's referring to Ciogli's second question.  Also, the Mutilated might actually be Kellhus's literal brothers. We know that Kellhus is a prodigy among the Dnyain, and the only other Dnyain survivors we see also happen to be Anasrimbors. Coincidence? Maybe, maybe not...

Bummer about the lost answers, Bakker. Is there a planned date for the AMA yet?
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: themerchant on July 29, 2017, 04:23:54 pm
Ouch on 3 hours of work going missing...

Well Kellhus was a prodigy, Old Moe was the "better" of the other folk who killed themselves and Koringhus was beyond all other brethern. So that's 3 generations also the anasurimbor Seed is the most promising of the 12 germs.

I suspect Crabicus will be similarly gifted, but obviously he is unfettered, not born on the road anymore. (see Koringhus musing in TGO) . On the where is Crabicus debate? He's probably the most talented brain left in existence, no chance he was going to turn up at the Ark he's spent his life as the understudy to The Survivor. Sure Akka and Mimara are heading that way to save Esme, although they tell themselves it's to judge Kellhus.  Crabicus probably wisely decided to head the opposite direction of the mushroom cloud, the crazed wizard, the pregnant lady who caused your father to commit suicide, and the horde of syclenvendi led by a total maniac.

Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: Madness on July 29, 2017, 04:52:17 pm
Bummer about the lost answers, Bakker. Is there a planned date for the AMA yet?

AMA is on r/fantasy (https://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/) on this Wednesday, Aug 2nd.
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: CondYoke on July 29, 2017, 05:05:01 pm
Wait, the Mutilated are the sons of Imimorul? Also, such a bummer about the lost posts...
No, he's referring to Ciogli's second question.  Also, the Mutilated might actually be Kellhus's literal brothers. We know that Kellhus is a prodigy among the Dnyain, and the only other Dnyain survivors we see also happen to be Anasrimbors. Coincidence? Maybe, maybe not...

Bummer about the lost answers, Bakker. Is there a planned date for the AMA yet?
I thought about it- if the Mutilated were one of his actual brothers, they'd have no need for an anasurimbor to start the No-God.  I don't see them holding back their own lives in the face of obtaining the Absolute.
But I still want to know which one is the Pragma!
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: Ciogli on July 29, 2017, 05:23:30 pm
Maybe it is not simply any Anasurimbor they needed, and in a place as confined as Ishual everybody would already be closely related.  Maybe same father or mother, or both. Or sons or even nephews.
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: C'jara-Cinmoi on July 29, 2017, 05:54:35 pm
It was almost certainly my own damn fault. I kept ctrl A-ing and ctrl C-ing to prevent just such a thing happening. My guess is that I simply forgot to click off the select All highlight before clicking quote on the first of the two answers that did appear.

Losing my harddrive has shortened my fuse for such things, I think. I bloody snapped.
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: TLEILAXU on July 29, 2017, 06:10:40 pm
Is the caged Dnyain a defective? "on a voice like bundled reeds" <- was he in the process of getting his larynx removed when the Consult attacked?
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: C'jara-Cinmoi on July 29, 2017, 06:14:48 pm
I found the whole bloody book posted *online* shortly after. Be sure to let every Yar you meet that pirating midlisters amounts to killing professional risk-taking. Talk about shitting where you eat.

One of those days.
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: Woden on July 29, 2017, 06:31:38 pm
I will never understand pirating books. The kindle versions are so cheap that the pirating thing is question of pure, inchoroi evil.

I have bought the hardcover book and because its delay on Amazon.es also bought the kindle version without problem. I make proselytism of the saga with all my friends (my only complaint about it is that The Aspect-Emperor has not yet spanish translation, so my task is a little more difficult in this remote corner of the Three Seas).
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: themerchant on July 29, 2017, 07:23:25 pm
Just as some feedback for what it is worth, I love the book. It's my favourite one out of the seven so far. It beat The Warrior Prophet into 2nd place, which I didn't expect at all.

Also i'm probably in the minority but as I said to Madness right after i finished. I'd be cool if that was it. Before anyone gets onto me though, remember Madness was alright with it being the end after TGO. So get him first ;)





Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: Callan S. on July 29, 2017, 10:59:58 pm
Much appreciated the time spent with answers, Scott! It was good that you tried, if you'll let yourself be told that :) Mourning your lost post all the same, o/c. It's probably better to use word for really big posts then copy them over - this is something I've told myself after losing a post. Then eventually I just fall back to using the betraying text box of a forum!

Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: MisterGuyMan on July 30, 2017, 01:19:21 am
Thanks for answering my question.  Can't wait to start The No-God series!

I'll just quote this other poster's question since I've been waiting with my breath held since he posted it:
Quote
3- what can you say about Kellhus' role in TSTSNBN?  still a major player?
I need to know this!
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: Kamakazikitteh on July 30, 2017, 01:37:33 am
It really does suck seeing a smaller author like yourself get pirated.
Hopefully with the release of tuc new little scranc will join this demented little hoard.
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: Seomus on July 30, 2017, 02:07:20 am
pirating is the worst. Sorry to hear that, Scott. Me and many of my indie author friends have all had our work pirated, too. The thing is, it's hard to tell if that's really your book there or if they've just pulled your book off amazon and are really hosting malware or other destructive programs to scam you because you often have to download their software first. Really foul ones sell the ebooks like they're a legit site but probably are stealing your credit card information in the process.
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: codebread on July 30, 2017, 02:17:44 am
I lost a very long and complicated tutorial I wrote for some programming stuff once, due to a website error. Spent hours writing, linking sources, explaining in detail, only to have it be a mangled mess (basically gibberish, it's like someone scrambled the letters and words) once I hit "post". The kicker is when I hit Back on the browser, knowing it would be cached and still available for me to copy+paste, the cached version was equally mangled and illegible. I'm fairly certain I wrote it correctly the first time, but perhaps I had a short-lived moment of complete and utter insanity.

Anyway, my point is, I feel for you. I'll save my many questions for the AMA, but I'll say that the journey this series has taken me on has been incredible. I read a lot of fantasy (as I'm sure many of us here do), but TSA is the most unique and gripping thing I've read, no question. I was initially disappointed with the ending, mostly with the speed and effortlessness that OG Consult was dispatched, in addition to all of the twists that left me with more questions than answers, but I'm coming to terms with the fact that my disappointment stems from not having the next series to read yet. After all, I was absolutely loving everything until the book ended. Yes, I don't think I've ever had so many mixed emotions about a book ending.

Regardless, it was a wonderful read. Congratulations on finishing the series. Two down, one to go  ;)
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: SmilerLoki on July 30, 2017, 03:36:21 am
Okay, so I just spent 3 hours typing nonstop answering every question on the topic summary and only the last two posted... Oof...

Sorry guys. I'm shaking with rage at the moment. Not sure when I'll have a chance to get back to these... You might want to save them for the AMA.
A very unfortunate mishap for sure. I was disillusioned with web forms for long posts when the Internet was all forums similar to this one. Now if I want to post anything substantial, I just type it into Word first (other editors work, of course). Obviously, this practice evolved from some unfortunate experiences of my own

I'm going to repeat my first message here during the AMA, since I'm really interested in your comments. I hope you don't mind. I even registered a reddit account specifically for that.   
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: Crtha on July 30, 2017, 03:45:20 am
Ah. It is a sad day.

Piracy is always going to happen, but I think electronic distribution has come far enough that it doesn't have anything like the impact on actual sales that it used to. I think most types of people who would pirate fiction would have simply waited to get it from a friend or a library in pre-internet days, rather than pay a couple of dollars.

I was happy to pay $10 for the e-book while I waited for my hardback ($55) for a couple of weeks. So while that increased availability might make it easier for pirated copies to get out there already, it's also getting authors like you some extra sales. :)
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: C'jara-Cinmoi on July 30, 2017, 01:33:39 pm
pirating is the worst. Sorry to hear that, Scott. Me and many of my indie author friends have all had our work pirated, too. The thing is, it's hard to tell if that's really your book there or if they've just pulled your book off amazon and are really hosting malware or other destructive programs to scam you because you often have to download their software first. Really foul ones sell the ebooks like they're a legit site but probably are stealing your credit card information in the process.

The click bait stuff I don't worry about too much for this very reason, but this was a site with my whole book available to read online. Little&Brown, I find, is pretty good at policing this stuff though. Still one has to wonder for the future. We had friends over a few nights ago who laughed that I would be so stupid to buy Bluerays for things that were free. Its got to the point where I'm apologizing for taking intellectual property seriously.
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: Madness on July 30, 2017, 01:50:31 pm
I had a thought as I was perusing this thread but if you're ever kicking around, C'jara-Cinmoi, this subforum is your own personal fiefdom. You're more than welcome to expand from the Q&A constraints and create your own threads.

I've found it immensely rewarding to cue and watch cued this increasingly unique network of readers your fandom draws to any number of interesting and difficult topics. Responses may vary ;).
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: CondYoke on July 30, 2017, 02:18:18 pm
pirating is the worst. Sorry to hear that, Scott. Me and many of my indie author friends have all had our work pirated, too. The thing is, it's hard to tell if that's really your book there or if they've just pulled your book off amazon and are really hosting malware or other destructive programs to scam you because you often have to download their software first. Really foul ones sell the ebooks like they're a legit site but probably are stealing your credit card information in the process.


The click bait stuff I don't worry about too much for this very reason, but this was a site with my whole book available to read online. Little&Brown, I find, is pretty good at policing this stuff though. Still one has to wonder for the future. We had friends over a few nights ago who laughed that I would be so stupid to buy Bluerays for things that were free. Its got to the point where I'm apologizing for taking intellectual property seriously.

Well, I'm trying. Like Curethan, I bought both the e book and hardcover, and will probably get a paperback before it's all over. And I buy used copies whenever I can to have them around the classroom for any likely adherents. And like you, I am laughed at for paying full price for music.
Hopefully the moral actors can outweigh the wayward. And I really hope you're making a living off of these books. Cause the meat is tasty, and I am not yet sated.
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: Anwurat on July 30, 2017, 02:49:42 pm
According to a Google search the epub of the unholy consult was posted on a certain forum on July 7th around 2pm. So yeah, at this point any remotely known book will be pirated on release pretty much. There is really no point trying to stop that.
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: jurble on July 30, 2017, 03:47:25 pm
pirating is the worst. Sorry to hear that, Scott. Me and many of my indie author friends have all had our work pirated, too. The thing is, it's hard to tell if that's really your book there or if they've just pulled your book off amazon and are really hosting malware or other destructive programs to scam you because you often have to download their software first. Really foul ones sell the ebooks like they're a legit site but probably are stealing your credit card information in the process.

The click bait stuff I don't worry about too much for this very reason, but this was a site with my whole book available to read online. Little&Brown, I find, is pretty good at policing this stuff though. Still one has to wonder for the future. We had friends over a few nights ago who laughed that I would be so stupid to buy Bluerays for things that were free. Its got to the point where I'm apologizing for taking intellectual property seriously.

It's time to do what web-comic authors do - stick books on your site for free and sell t-shirts, hats and stickers.  Circumfix bumper stickers will out-number Jesus fish in a few years.  Or instead of Calvin peeing decals, we can have Aurang ejaculating.  The possibilities are endless.
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: Bolivar on July 30, 2017, 03:57:58 pm
If it's any consolation for the pirating, I bought two copies, Kindle & Hardcover, as I'm sure others here did as well.
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: Woden on July 30, 2017, 04:24:00 pm
pirating is the worst. Sorry to hear that, Scott. Me and many of my indie author friends have all had our work pirated, too. The thing is, it's hard to tell if that's really your book there or if they've just pulled your book off amazon and are really hosting malware or other destructive programs to scam you because you often have to download their software first. Really foul ones sell the ebooks like they're a legit site but probably are stealing your credit card information in the process.

The click bait stuff I don't worry about too much for this very reason, but this was a site with my whole book available to read online. Little&Brown, I find, is pretty good at policing this stuff though. Still one has to wonder for the future. We had friends over a few nights ago who laughed that I would be so stupid to buy Bluerays for things that were free. Its got to the point where I'm apologizing for taking intellectual property seriously.

It's time to do what web-comic authors do - stick books on your site for free and sell t-shirts, hats and stickers.  Circumfix bumper stickers will out-number Jesus fish in a few years.  Or instead of Calvin peeing decals, we can have Aurang ejaculating.  The possibilities are endless.

I would buy any circumfix and tusk t-shirt that I could find. Lol. For sure.
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: Bhaal on July 30, 2017, 04:49:58 pm
Cu'jara-Cinmoi,

what's happening with TV option? Who got the rights? Is it the dude who did the Golden Compass and I think he wrote SW: Rogue One?

How is the Logos dependent on emotions? And on that point - what is specifically neuroanatomically different with the Dunyain (e.g. larger neocortexes)?

Have you got a contract about the No-God series and when can we expect them?

How is that congenital blindness (the way you use the word in your books) when taken to the extreme (that it blinds completely one person) can alleviate them from sin? In that sense, is the type of insanity that brings about lack of self-insight and ego-syntonic cognitions a ticket to redemption? In short, complete ignorance brought about from severe disorder = elevator to Heaven?

The more I ponder your books and the TUC, the more I think of you as a mad genius wizard of fantasy, I hate you, I love you, keep writing. Also, if possible, this is just fan request, can you bring about less abstract metaphors and abstractions as a whole?
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: themerchant on July 30, 2017, 04:53:28 pm
pirating is the worst. Sorry to hear that, Scott. Me and many of my indie author friends have all had our work pirated, too. The thing is, it's hard to tell if that's really your book there or if they've just pulled your book off amazon and are really hosting malware or other destructive programs to scam you because you often have to download their software first. Really foul ones sell the ebooks like they're a legit site but probably are stealing your credit card information in the process.

The click bait stuff I don't worry about too much for this very reason, but this was a site with my whole book available to read online. Little&Brown, I find, is pretty good at policing this stuff though. Still one has to wonder for the future. We had friends over a few nights ago who laughed that I would be so stupid to buy Bluerays for things that were free. Its got to the point where I'm apologizing for taking intellectual property seriously.

Hard to tell your friends they are essentially thieves ;)
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: themerchant on July 30, 2017, 04:55:24 pm
If it's any consolation for the pirating, I bought two copies, Kindle & Hardcover, as I'm sure others here did as well.

Yeah i bought a trade paperback, the kindle version as well.

As soon as you can convince someone to do a re-release of the series with Jason Deem Covers i'll buy all them too.
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: mostly.harmless on July 30, 2017, 05:10:51 pm
pirating is the worst. Sorry to hear that, Scott. Me and many of my indie author friends have all had our work pirated, too. The thing is, it's hard to tell if that's really your book there or if they've just pulled your book off amazon and are really hosting malware or other destructive programs to scam you because you often have to download their software first. Really foul ones sell the ebooks like they're a legit site but probably are stealing your credit card information in the process.

The click bait stuff I don't worry about too much for this very reason, but this was a site with my whole book available to read online. Little&Brown, I find, is pretty good at policing this stuff though. Still one has to wonder for the future. We had friends over a few nights ago who laughed that I would be so stupid to buy Bluerays for things that were free. Its got to the point where I'm apologizing for taking intellectual property seriously.

It's time to do what web-comic authors do - stick books on your site for free and sell t-shirts, hats and stickers.  Circumfix bumper stickers will out-number Jesus fish in a few years.  Or instead of Calvin peeing decals, we can have Aurang ejaculating.  The possibilities are endless.
This!

Sent from mobile using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: Madness on July 30, 2017, 05:13:03 pm
It's time to do what web-comic authors do - stick books on your site for free and sell t-shirts, hats and stickers.  Circumfix bumper stickers will out-number Jesus fish in a few years.  Or instead of Calvin peeing decals, we can have Aurang ejaculating.  The possibilities are endless.

This!

Sent from mobile using Tapatalk

I'm sure we can facilitate this without C'jara-Cinmoi giving up on traditional backing or those sweet advance checks ;).
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: CondYoke on July 30, 2017, 07:21:37 pm
If I ever saw a "the logos has no beginning or end..." bumper sticker, I might have to rear- end that car just to talk about the books.  ;)
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: Callan S. on July 30, 2017, 11:40:46 pm
I think you buy books to be a patron. I'm not supporting stealing in saying this, just instead of mentioning the stick, I'm mentioning the carrot - you buy books in order to be a patron. That's a carrot. Someone who supports - ie, something a Dunyain wouldn't do... >:) Buying stickers and t-shirts - then you're a patron of stickers and t-shirts, not books.

We had friends over a few nights ago who laughed that I would be so stupid to buy Bluerays for things that were free. Its got to the point where I'm apologizing for taking intellectual property seriously.
Free as in it's genuinely in the public domain? Otherwise it's not free?

If it was something in the public domain, I think it's valid to talk about getting it for free...since it's free.
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: jurble on July 30, 2017, 11:50:16 pm
There's no money in books Callan.  It's all in shirts and stickers.  You think it was the book sales or even her movie cut that made Rowling a billionaire?  Nope, it was the swag.
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: MisterGuyMan on July 31, 2017, 12:38:47 am
At the risk of alienating my favorite author, I'm firmly believe piracy is a bogeyman used by large media companies.

I've read a lot of studies on the issue and if you throw out the media sponsored ones and the ones that equate each pirated copy to a lost sale, the actual effect of piracy isn't bad and even has positive benefits.

The simplest way to understand it is to examine consumers.  The limiting variable in how many books, movies or songs people buy is simply income.  People simply do not have enough money to buy it all the media they want.  Piracy is generally a supplementary activity in conjunction with legitimate spending.  A more accurate way to view this is by looking at pirates as fans and multiple studies actually confirm that the most prolific pirates are also usually the biggest spenders of legitimate media.
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: obstinate on July 31, 2017, 02:47:17 am
1. Do you have a Patreon? I am aware of other mid and even A-list writers who are using these as a means of securing a stable income between books. It's also an interesting way to let your readers invest in you, as opposed to only consuming that which you produce (I'm not sure if this distinction makes the idea more or less attractive). But I would certainly contribute a few dollars a month if you had one.

2. Something I have to relearn painfully from time to time: there's a medium for writing where the most you can ever lose is the last few letters you typed. Its name is Google Docs. If it takes more than a minute or two to compose just about anything, I create a document to host the work in progress.
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: Baztek on July 31, 2017, 04:56:00 am
thanks for writing such a riveting series, fantastic work, and if there was a couple hundred million behind a series of films it'd go down in history
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: C'jara-Cinmoi on July 31, 2017, 12:16:36 pm
At the risk of alienating my favorite author, I'm firmly believe piracy is a bogeyman used by large media companies.

I've read a lot of studies on the issue and if you throw out the media sponsored ones and the ones that equate each pirated copy to a lost sale, the actual effect of piracy isn't bad and even has positive benefits.

In other words, big media are skewing results in order to minimize their profits... The only universe in which this argument could have bite is one where humans are hardwired to rationalize guilt.

The more time people spend consuming free media, the less time they spend consuming purchased media, the less money they spend. You can spike your samples any which way (the way IP foes do), cherry-pick countless happy scenarios, but it all comes down to this: people spending less, and content producers struggling more.

Being a Yar is bad enough. Being one who thinks they're actually doing good, on the other hand...

 
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: C'jara-Cinmoi on July 31, 2017, 01:27:01 pm
Is Meppa going to show up in the next series or is his story over?

Also, can you confirm that Kellhus actually failed in the end and didn't pull off some trick to fool Ajokli and the Consult?

Sorry to be cryptic, but I can say Meppa is not dead, but Kellhus is.
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: C'jara-Cinmoi on July 31, 2017, 01:40:45 pm
I just wanted to say thank you all once again. I appreciate all kind words - if I don't quote or respond to them directly it's simply for the sake of getting to as many questions as I can.


I wish I had a meaningful question, but beyond the title, I don't want to spoil the story for myself, so I will only ask that perpetually annoying reader question... how long?  Have you inked a deal yet?  Will it grow from 2 to 3 books, or are you set on 2?
Also, you mentioned on TPB that the film/TV rights were optioned. Have you heard of any movement on that project?  And if it moves forward, how much creative control will you retain?


Amazon welched on the TV deal. In fact, they sacked everyone involved in it and several other deals with several other authors. Typically, a letter of agreement is as good as a contract in the biz. Once again they have proven themselves innovators.

A deal for the next books is in the works, but quite a bit depends on how well things go with TUC and the degree to which it bootstraps the backlist. Even if that happens, I'll keep on writing. The innovative folks over at Amazon have developed a great platform for authors to go it alone.

And yes, the world really is that crazy.
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: H on July 31, 2017, 01:52:59 pm
Amazon welched on the TV deal. In fact, they sacked everyone involved in it and several other deals with several other authors. Typically, a letter of agreement is as good as a contract in the biz. Once again they have proven themselves innovators.

A deal for the next books is in the works, but quite a bit depends on how well things go with TUC and the degree to which it bootstraps the backlist. Even if that happens, I'll keep on writing. The innovative folks over at Amazon have developed a great platform for authors to go it alone.

And yes, the world really is that crazy.

Damn.  Well, I am not exactly super knowledgeable on it, but there are also things like https://www.patreon.com/ that can allow you to establish something on your own too.
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: C'jara-Cinmoi on July 31, 2017, 01:54:51 pm
"...but hindsight is a motherfucker when it comes to threading those kinds of needles."  Perfect answer! 

Can you please clarify the meaning or symbolism of the "head on the pole behind you" imagery?

How did Serwa overcome the effects of the Agonic collar that she had on in Ishterebinth?

As I said, I have a million of them!  ;^)

The image itself comes from a curious optical illusion I continually experienced while writing in this particular coffee shop. Whenever I sat in this one chair, I saw the silhouette of a severed head on a pole over my shoulder - and it just so happened that I was writing the first draft of these Kellhus sections at the time. It creeped me out, and given my old Derridean obsession with the paradoxes of the time of telling versus the time told, I thought it a cool way to evoke the omnipresence of the infernal eternal, as well as to provide yet another clue regarding the unclean entity residing within.

Serwa had been prepared by her father... it was another Metagnostic tool.
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: Woden on July 31, 2017, 02:00:43 pm
Best white-luck with all of that stuff!

Another mad desire: the saga could be a terrific franchise for games, as Project Red made with Sapkowski's The Witcher. That's the future.
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: C'jara-Cinmoi on July 31, 2017, 02:08:00 pm

A lot of the questions have been put forward and even answered already. Something I was wondering about, what was the ultimate point of the Serwa vs the Dragon scene? The Ordeal's fight to enter the Ark seemed futile, considering the context of the Golden Room, and I don't quite see what the Serwa scene does for the narrative. Serwa's feats had been legendary already, I did not feel or understand the necessity of this setpiece.


I'm not sure I get the question, even if it were the case that the battle lacked downstream consequences. To the extent that war is generally pointless, all war stories are mountains of futility with peaks of 'closure' here and there. I can't tell a realistic story without including dead ends. The Glossary is literally packed with them!
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: Wilshire on July 31, 2017, 02:11:52 pm
Best white-luck with all of that stuff!

Another mad desire: the saga could be a terrific franchise for games, as Project Red made with Sapkowski's The Witcher. That's the future.

THere's a TPB post somewhere where Scott mentions he wanted to turn it into a Total War esque game, had a bidder or something(?), but it fell through.


Scott, have you ever considered a a-typical medium for your not-so-typical books? I think anime is a great place for books to be translated to a different audiance in a different medium. Much more creative freedom - but much less money for it I'd imagine.
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: C'jara-Cinmoi on July 31, 2017, 02:18:24 pm
I don't have a question prepared on short notice, so the first thing that comes to mind is to ask about Ark.  It was my presumption that the No-God apparatus (the sarcophagus) functioned differently before Ark-fall.  My supposition would be then that while Ark was fully functional, the souls of the Progenitors would have been contained therein, meaning that on other worlds, it would have been unnecessary to find a suitable surrogate.  Of course, the presumption then would be that what makes a soul a suitable alternative is not specifically Anisrimbor blood, but rather similarity to the Progenitors.  Could this be an accurate summation?


Plug and play, basically. Having lost the original store of circuits, the Consult had no choice but to keep rummaging through the heap the World provided. The Anasurimbor, for whatever reason, have proven apt historically.
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: C'jara-Cinmoi on July 31, 2017, 02:20:54 pm
Is Mimara giving birth in Golgotterath meant to be a little meta-joke - that Golgotterath, the most wicked place in all of Creation, is now Earwa's actual Jerusalem?

Or Bethlehem. I'm not sure the inversion counts as 'joke' though - at least not of the ha-ha variety!
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: H on July 31, 2017, 02:23:21 pm
Plug and play, basically. Having lost the original store of circuits, the Consult had no choice but to keep rummaging through the heap the World provided. The Anasurimbor, for whatever reason, have proven apt historically.

A circuit indeed, a very interesting likening, thanks!
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: Hiro on July 31, 2017, 02:23:39 pm

A lot of the questions have been put forward and even answered already. Something I was wondering about, what was the ultimate point of the Serwa vs the Dragon scene? The Ordeal's fight to enter the Ark seemed futile, considering the context of the Golden Room, and I don't quite see what the Serwa scene does for the narrative. Serwa's feats had been legendary already, I did not feel or understand the necessity of this setpiece.





I'm not sure I get the question, even if it were the case that the battle lacked downstream consequences. To the extent that war is generally pointless, all war stories are mountains of futility with peaks of 'closure' here and there. I can't tell a realistic story without including dead ends. The Glossary is literally packed with them!

Thanks for your reaction. The point that you make about including dead ends is clear, and something that I do agree with.
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: C'jara-Cinmoi on July 31, 2017, 02:31:52 pm
I've been reading the books and 3 pound brain for quite some time, and thank you Richard for answering what you can.

My question is more about message: Is it my understanding that the progenitors is something you see as something humanity is going towards, and ultimately, in your books so far is the implied message that too much knowledge and power, as demonstrated by both the progenitors (via tekne) and the non-men (via gnosis) - ultimately leads to damnation? Both of them stepping too close to the absolute, to bringing light to where ignorance should always rule. The only thing that will always win is absence - ignorance, the unknown. That is why the no-god was always inevitable, as it is the unknown. This is the same of the God of Gods, in a way. (I won't ask here because obviously you're saving that).

I guess what I'm asking is whether this is one of the messages you intend here, and that the moral we should see in it is the importance of leaving a bubble of ignorance, to respect the unknown's place and importance as defining us within what we do see. Since we cannot see ourselves we are both the ignorant and the ignorance. The importance of admitting ignorance, respecting it and take into consideration that not all pursuits should be taken, not all tracks should be explored.

No. The ignorance stuff is more retail than that, part of my attempt to write an inverse scripture, one preaching suspicion as opposed to belief. My 'message' is that we, as a species, now find ourselves standing beneath Golgotterath, the crash site of meaning and morality. Check out: https://rsbakker.wordpress.com/2011/06/21/what-is-the-semantic-apocalypse/

Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: C'jara-Cinmoi on July 31, 2017, 02:40:13 pm

Can you tell us what was up with the Old Father ordering the skin spy to preserve Mimara?  Even once we know the 'false prophecy' refers to the misunderstanding about the Anasurimbor returning at the end of the world I'm still not sure why they thought Mimara could prove beneficial to their cause.

So if you look at prophecy in superpositional terms, then any given prophecy will only be true of one set of forking paths. If you believe that a meta-prophecy lies buried among those prophecies, then you will be circumspect about the ways you wage war against destiny. There's no end to the potential counterfactuals when it comes to the Judging Eye, given the apparent randomness of its opening and closing. If the Consult has any inkling of Mimara's importance, they will be circumspect.
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: Woden on July 31, 2017, 02:54:35 pm
What about the skin-spy with (apparently) a soul?
It was a lonely lucky by trial and error accident? Or a conscious and searched improving of the Tekne?
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: C'jara-Cinmoi on July 31, 2017, 02:59:48 pm

In Prince of Nothing, there is a scene where Conphas describes war as intellect, and then later on, another scene where Cnaiur describes war as conviction.  Given this, should we see one of the key themes of the entire Second Apocalypse as a contrast and/or conflict between rationality and faith, and/or their implications?

Many of the words used to describe the in-story concepts have more than one meaning in English. With that in mind, how important to the overall story arc is the spiritual/religious meaning of gnosis?

Should we read anything into the use of the word jihad for the Fanim holy wars?

Are the head-fucking scenes a direct message from the author to the reader? ;)

How much is the Earwa No-God influenced by Karl Barth's concept of the No-God?

A large part of the project deals with problematizing both rationality and faith in light of their mandatory nature, the fact that we have no bloody choice but to live life through them--as well as how both are bound to ultimately let us down, despite their proximal power.

Both gnosis and jihad plug into the conceptual imaginary of the series in largely retail ways.

As a rewriting writer, you hover over the text too long not to become wicked in some small way.

I've never read a lick of Barths.

Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: C'jara-Cinmoi on July 31, 2017, 03:35:03 pm
How should we take the Mutilated's statement that the No-God is the Absolute?   Is it just rhetoric on their part or is the No-God a mechanical device that somehow uses God?  I have thought that the No-God being a device that interacts or uses God in a mechanical manner would be an easy way to explain both how it controls the weapon races (beings without "Free Will") and the Bode (everything with "Free Will" can feel the emanation of Divine Will but aren't suborned to it).

In TTT, Kellhus says the Mangaecca squat, chanting about Aurang's real body to relay him to the Synthese.  But, the Consult's Brain Trust seems to be restricted to just Mek, Shauriatus, Aurang and Aurax (and then the Mutilated).  Were there any other Minds among the Consult for the past 2 millenia or has it just been those four?  If so, given their .. dilapidated status how did Consult programs like breeding the Inversi actually function?  How did they manage it with so little sane manpower? 

How much of the Tekne do the Mutilated understand?  They've attached batteries to a lasergun and fixed a nuke, but is it limited to electrical engineering (which they could understand just by taking things apart and using their big brains) or have they learned any of the fundamentals of physics, chemistry, or biology?

Edit: Is the Chair of Hooks meant to be a device we should recognize and go "Ha! The Inchoroi used a [insert] as a chair!"?  Because I can't figure out what its original purpose was based on its description. 

Edit 2: Kakaliol kills an Erratic and can't find its soul.  Did this poor Erratic actually manage to find Oblivion?

There's no real world sense to be made of this: the Absolute, the unconditioned condition, is chimerical, a kind of cognitive perpetual motion machine. So fictionally speaking, the question is what kind of plausibility tales can you cook up. The Mutilated go pure objectivity, sapience absent sentience, while Kellhus goes pure subjectivity, sentience absent sapience. Press in either direction, and you trip into conceptual crash space, which is why all philosophical investigation of the theme remains mired in endless disputation.

Your second question leads me to believe that pretty much everyone has missed a certain boat, in which case, I can only say, RAFO!

The Mutilated have at best an operational knowledge of the Tekne devices they have happened upon - a Dunyain operational knowledge.

As for the Chair of Hooks, no, I had nothing devious in mind - I'm not even sure what you have in mind Jurble! As for the scene with the Erratic, yes, this is the implication.

Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: jurble on July 31, 2017, 03:44:25 pm
So our boy Mekeritig was wrong... or not completely right when he decided the Between-Way was a lie.  That's a relief, I was worried I had to root for the Consult.
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: C'jara-Cinmoi on July 31, 2017, 03:49:50 pm
Do you have any predictions of when can we expect book 1 of THE NO-GOD series ?
2- still 2 books or a trilogy now?
3- what can you say about Kellhus' role in TSTSNBN?  still a major player?
4- How much metaphysical questions can we expect to be answered in TNG ( feels good saying that)  ?
6-  What is the deal of the Anasrimbor prophesy?  Didn't Akka's changed dreams hint at Nau-Cayuti being Seswatha's son, how was he the NG 1.0 then?  or did the Mutilated misunderstood it?

I'm averaging about a book every two years, it seems. The No-God at the moment looks like two or three books, but maybe more. I see it more as a set of interrelated atrocity tales, a new set of Sagas, than a single, linear narrative. Otherwise, Kellhus is dead, and I think the best way to kill the metaphysical realism of the series is to provide a canonical version. Even I were to provide such a version, it would be fraught with ambiguity by virtue of being metaphysical. Lastly, confusion regarding paternity was but one of many hobgoblins of the ancient world.
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: C'jara-Cinmoi on July 31, 2017, 04:25:35 pm
Interpretative indeterminacy, or what I call 'Crash Space' in my philosophical work, is what this series is ALL about, so if you were expecting a traditional discharging of narrative mysteries, you were bound to be disappointed: the idea is to cue our meaning-making instincts in the absence of any definitive interpretation.

What questions can we ask which wouldn't invalidate to various degrees this goal, Scott?

Edit: Also while I'm sure getting back into raw writing rather than redrafting must be exhilarating, might you continue at TPB in future?

I'm sure those on the short end, dismayed by the indeterminacy, would be inclined to smell a postmodern rat, a way for an author to immunize him or herself from making any sort of 'errors.' But what can I do aside from shrug, reaffirm that I did work tremendously hard on this final book, and reassert that frustrating our meaning-making reflexes was paramount among my goals? Those things I am asked that belong to the signal I hoped would transmit will get a direct answer, as in the case of the hologram for instance. If that minimal signal doesn't come through for certain readers, then I failed those readers. But I thought, and still think, the exercise was well-worth risking such failures. If it proves that these individual failures aggregate into the commercial failure of the series of the whole, then so much the worse for me. But I will still insist that those who do feel betrayed by the ending actually 'get' the book in a way more profound than they know.

It's crash space. A place where every judgment of error doubles as an affirmation of success. You know more intimately than most, I'm sure, how this stuff has genuinely animated my thought.

Speaking of TPB, I find out today how much of the data from my old harddrive they were able to salvage, as well as how much it's going to cost.
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: C'jara-Cinmoi on July 31, 2017, 04:35:34 pm
Is there any hopes for a further edited Glossary in future printings? While I loved reading it, all the character entries from TTT are lifted with no death dates added and there are loads of things I looked forward to looking up in the Glossary but alas, were nowhere to be found. Some I had hoped for, an entry on the Tall, the Cinderswords.

And is Glimir and Alamir the same sword? It's described as the High-King's sword, spelt as Kelmomas, and matches Glimir's description from TGO.

There's an entry on the finger locking handshake of Boonsmen...but not one on Boonsmen.


I'm sure The No-God will include an updated glossary, but until then, what you see is what you get, I fear. But one thing you will not get is a perfectly edited, entirely consistent encyclopedic version, simply because, for one, some of the inconsistencies are intentional, and secondly, because error/omission free encyclopedia are the product of the Enlightenment. Pre-Enlightenment compendiums are gloriously messy things, and now that we're staring down the barrel of AI editing, the messiness of these books will telegraph their humanity all the more.

That said, Glimir/Alamir is likely a continuity error.
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: Walter on July 31, 2017, 04:43:44 pm
Can you tell us what Maithanet was trying to say to Esmenet when he died?
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: Likaro on July 31, 2017, 05:07:55 pm
Scott, thank you so much for your works. Truly it is amongst the best epic fantasy has to offer. Congrats on finishing this arc (or ark if you will ).

TUC hit me like a punch to the guts. I figured the No-God was getting resurrected one way or another, but I still wasn't prepared for that brutal ending. I actually felt depressed the whole day after finishing it! So Bravo on that.


1. If the No-God 2.0 doesn't have Chorae attached to the carapace, why didn't Akka just blast the thing into oblivion at that moment where it's revealed to him?

2. Are Ajokli and the Gods still completely unaware of things with the Consult/No-God? Doesn't Ajokli have enough information now to infer that there are things that he cannot see ? I mean he was briefly right there interacting with the DunSult so he has to have some clue about whats going on. Or the God's just not reason that way?

3. It seems kind of foolish that the Consult would bring Dunyain back as prisoners. Was it simple arrogance that made them feel safe in doing so, or are you actually kind of saying that the Consult brain trust isn't that great and has degraded?

4. The Inchoroi are immortal in their physical bodies and were able to do the same for the Nonmen. Why were they not able to do that for Shaeonanra, a human? Why did he have to resort to that complicated and cumbersome method of soul trapping for staying alive?

5. Is/was Kelmomas one of the few?

Thank you!
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: Anwurat on July 31, 2017, 05:15:27 pm
Thanks for your answer.

If it's not too much to ask, can you clarify anything about Kellhus' vision on the circumfix? The monk and the beast inverted, the woman's hip, the tree, etc., what do those things mean? And was it actually the No-God that spoke to Kellhus on the circumfix or Ajokli?
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: Woden on July 31, 2017, 05:21:29 pm
And the halos? Any clue about them?
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: spacemost on July 31, 2017, 06:24:19 pm
I believe the Temple Prayer appears at least twice in this book -- does the line "Judge us not according to our trespasses / But according to our temptations" provide any meaningful insight into how salvation and damnation actually function in the world of the novels?

e.g. in the eyes of the gods, would you be better off as a reluctant prostitute than as a lustful but otherwise faithful husband?
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: C'jara-Cinmoi on July 31, 2017, 07:31:50 pm

1. I should not expect Earwa to be perfectly thought out in every respect, since no writer is God, but there seem to be actualized philosophical principles in the world of the Second Apocalypse. Some of them are created by the Tekne (the Inverse Fire and the No-God), some have unknown origin (the Outside, possibly the Judging Eye), and some are sorcerous (Chorae, though I feel only to an extent). This troubles me since there are no real world alternatives to such things, and so I can't relate. Which means any kind of logical reasoning about the nature of the world of Earwa is fundamentally flawed (more than usual), because those are things in themselves, working as you want them to or as needed for the narrative. Could you comment on this issue?

2. In my opinion, there is (after the end of "The Unholy Consult") one and only one undoubtedly heroic character in the Second Apocalypse and that character is Anasurimbor Serwa. She was, of course, by no means perfect, but her intentions and actions (as I see them, and my sight is also by no means perfect) speak for themselves. She followed her father, because she wanted to save the world. She battled the Horde and suffered hardships of the Great Ordeal. She lived through Ishterebinth. She saved Moenghus. She was capable of love, and loved Sorweel. She mourned him when he died. She saved Mimara, Achamian, and Esmenet before attending to her mission, which makes her human as opposed to Kellhus. Oh, and she also killed a dragon with all its retinue. A dragon that kept the entirety of the Great Ordeal at bay. Some people argue that your books are misogynistic. And yet the most heroic character in them is a woman. Are you laughing now? I know I would be, quite evilly so!

1) The incompatibility between meaning (intentionality, in philosopher jargon) and mechanism is the crux from which the whole book hangs: the books simply inherit this incompatibility, exacerbate it with an eye for exploring its texture and implication.

2) A couple evil cackles, here and there. In terms of the extra-textual arguments I made criticizing feminist piety back when, I feel vindicated in a number of different respects. Not only has serious discussion allowed biological differences back to the table, there seems to a growing recognition that the movement needs to fundamentally retool its messaging mechanisms: I've had the strange experience of watching feminists interviewed arguing that the shame tactics so effective in the twentieth century now simply aggravate the problem. That's all for the good, though I fear that progressivism faces almost insurmountable headwinds given the way connectivity empowers extremisms of all stripes. The turn of political events in the US haunts me... to the point of developing a Cassandra complex.

As for the story, Serwa and Mimara were always in the cards, as was the democratization of sexual violence. Since the point was to cue outrage, to trick readers into making the same kinds of snap moral judgments and rationalizations that appall them in the text, I don't look at coming to the conclusion as any kind of moral vindication or ingroup credentializing. The point all along was that rationality flies out the window once our outrage buttons have been pushed, and that this applies universally, which is to say, as readily to liberals as to conservatives.
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: C'jara-Cinmoi on July 31, 2017, 07:42:38 pm
Shrewd observation regarding Kelmomas (I wasn't sure anyone would pick up on the conversation in the tent), though it isn't bicameralism so much as the absence of identity that's the crux.
Does that means he is in some sense like a Sranc? Is that why the Gods can't see him?

Also, can you expand a bit on what is meant by "You realized the Mission was not to master Cause via Logos, but to master Cause via Cause, to endlessly refashion the Near to consume and incorporate the Far." ? Does it mean that more and more elaborated machinery will converge to a self-moving soul?

Bicameralism applies more to the structure of the World and Outside than Kel. I see him as lacking any stable identity, personhood, as opposed to being soulless.

More like converge with a self-moving universe.
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: C'jara-Cinmoi on July 31, 2017, 07:48:03 pm
Will you explore the mechanism that allowed Inaru to reach from the void in a dream and tell Akka about the Consult.

Was it Onkis that told Inaru to run? (the first series seems to have loads of wee interactions that could be interpreted as "god whispers")

What did he find in Uncle Holy Quarters?

The skin-spy with a soul, Old Father Moenghus made him didn't he? So that Maitha could unveil him and gain the mandate trust?

I honestly can't remember well enough to be sure I'm not just bullshitting regarding the first three questions. The thing called Simas, however, is a creature of the Consult.
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: C'jara-Cinmoi on July 31, 2017, 07:54:28 pm

2. C'naiur's fate: I thought this was an obvious case of inverted-ascension (inverted because Ajokli exists across the age, despite his temporal genesis occurring at the end of a frame of existence).

The Most Violent of Men becoming the Prince of Hate was a stunning scene.

But based on other readers' reactions I'm quite alone on that and so, I'm probably wrong about it.
Could you comment on that scene and C'naiur's AE storyline in general?

3. Would you say that Koringhus, Mimara and the Inverse Fire were intended to reveal the veracity of Oblivion, Redemption and Damnation or should readers consider these scenes with suspicion?

I actually have a version of that final Cnaiur scene that's more than twenty years old - it's been baked in since the very beginning. For me, it's always been a kind of bookend for the series, the becoming infernal/geological of the hate that initially preserved him, but leaves him hijacked and blind at the end.

Everything should be viewed with suspicion, but I think it's nice how our end in this world, oblivion, is the most unlikely/ambiguous in the World.
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: C'jara-Cinmoi on July 31, 2017, 07:56:23 pm
Did we see any of the Mutilated in previous books?

Not that I recall, no. I feel muddy on this simply because the original beginning of TDTCB featured a lot more facetime with the brethren.
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: C'jara-Cinmoi on July 31, 2017, 07:59:30 pm
On the Nonmen,  is that the last we will see of them or do the Cunuroi have one final hand to play?

At last! I made past the point where I'm rehearsing lost answers. It's been driving me nuts, constantly going forward, scratching my head, wondering whether I'd already answered these Qs or not.

The Nonmen are far from finished.
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: C'jara-Cinmoi on July 31, 2017, 08:02:46 pm
Is the caged Dnyain a defective? "on a voice like bundled reeds" <- was he in the process of getting his larynx removed when the Consult attacked?

There's countless ways to damage a larnyx with sorcery and Sranc flying around.
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: C'jara-Cinmoi on July 31, 2017, 08:09:10 pm
According to a Google search the epub of the unholy consult was posted on a certain forum on July 7th around 2pm. So yeah, at this point any remotely known book will be pirated on release pretty much. There is really no point trying to stop that.

It's a culture thing, like not littering or farting on elevators. The more one dreads being called a Yar, the fewer Yars there will be. At this point, it's the only thing I can see making a real difference for midlisters. We must condition this ground!
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: TheCulminatingApe on July 31, 2017, 08:10:42 pm

In Prince of Nothing, there is a scene where Conphas describes war as intellect, and then later on, another scene where Cnaiur describes war as conviction.  Given this, should we see one of the key themes of the entire Second Apocalypse as a contrast and/or conflict between rationality and faith, and/or their implications?

Many of the words used to describe the in-story concepts have more than one meaning in English. With that in mind, how important to the overall story arc is the spiritual/religious meaning of gnosis?

Should we read anything into the use of the word jihad for the Fanim holy wars?

Are the head-fucking scenes a direct message from the author to the reader? ;)

How much is the Earwa No-God influenced by Karl Barth's concept of the No-God?

A large part of the project deals with problematizing both rationality and faith in light of their mandatory nature, the fact that we have no bloody choice but to live life through them--as well as how both are bound to ultimately let us down, despite their proximal power.

Both gnosis and jihad plug into the conceptual imaginary of the series in largely retail ways.

As a rewriting writer, you hover over the text too long not to become wicked in some small way.

I've never read a lick of Barths.

Thanks, Scott
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: TheCulminatingApe on July 31, 2017, 08:12:01 pm
In TTT, Kellhus says the Mangaecca squat, chanting about Aurang's real body to relay him to the Synthese.  But, the Consult's Brain Trust seems to be restricted to just Mek, Shauriatus, Aurang and Aurax (and then the Mutilated).  Were there any other Minds among the Consult for the past 2 millenia or has it just been those four?  If so, given their .. dilapidated status how did Consult programs like breeding the Inversi actually function?  How did they manage it with so little sane manpower? 

Your second question leads me to believe that pretty much everyone has missed a certain boat, in which case, I can only say, RAFO!


Ark?
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: C'jara-Cinmoi on July 31, 2017, 08:12:52 pm

It's time to do what web-comic authors do - stick books on your site for free and sell t-shirts, hats and stickers.  Circumfix bumper stickers will out-number Jesus fish in a few years.  Or instead of Calvin peeing decals, we can have Aurang ejaculating.  The possibilities are endless.

I would sooner shit in my own mouth with my dog's asshole.

Old fashioned that way, I guess. All I know is that the farther thoughts of commerce are from my mind, the sweeter the spice flows.
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: C'jara-Cinmoi on July 31, 2017, 08:21:17 pm
1. Do you have a Patreon? I am aware of other mid and even A-list writers who are using these as a means of securing a stable income between books. It's also an interesting way to let your readers invest in you, as opposed to only consuming that which you produce (I'm not sure if this distinction makes the idea more or less attractive). But I would certainly contribute a few dollars a month if you had one.


My wife mentioned this to me a couple months back and a bolt of terror went up my spine. For whatever reason, self-promotion is indistinguishable from self-hatred for me. It's hard to explain, but I am genuinely ENSLAVED by all this stuff. I've spent decades now, trying to batter and berate myself into a more 'well rounded' human, but now that I've turned 50, I've resigned myself to being honest to my two-dimensional nature, and just to write whatever must be written.
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: C'jara-Cinmoi on July 31, 2017, 08:23:47 pm
Can you tell us what Maithanet was trying to say to Esmenet when he died?

Kill Kelmomas!
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: themerchant on July 31, 2017, 08:24:02 pm
Will you explore the mechanism that allowed Inaru to reach from the void in a dream and tell Akka about the Consult.

Was it Onkis that told Inaru to run? (the first series seems to have loads of wee interactions that could be interpreted as "god whispers")

What did he find in Uncle Holy Quarters?

The skin-spy with a soul, Old Father Moenghus made him didn't he? So that Maitha could unveil him and gain the mandate trust?

 The thing called Simas, however, is a creature of the Consult.

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooo there goes my theory lol.

Is Moe senior dead?
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: themerchant on July 31, 2017, 08:30:02 pm
1. Do you have a Patreon? I am aware of other mid and even A-list writers who are using these as a means of securing a stable income between books. It's also an interesting way to let your readers invest in you, as opposed to only consuming that which you produce (I'm not sure if this distinction makes the idea more or less attractive). But I would certainly contribute a few dollars a month if you had one.


My wife mentioned this to me a couple months back and a bolt of terror went up my spine. For whatever reason, self-promotion is indistinguishable from self-hatred for me. It's hard to explain, but I am genuinely ENSLAVED by all this stuff. I've spent decades now, trying to batter and berate myself into a more 'well rounded' human, but now that I've turned 50, I've resigned myself to being honest to my two-dimensional nature, and just to write whatever must be written.

Sell some atrocity tales on Amazon I'm sure you must have some ideas. Your personal preferences would allow you to do that at least? Plus we get more stories :D
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: jurble on July 31, 2017, 08:40:54 pm
In TTT, Kellhus says the Mangaecca squat, chanting about Aurang's real body to relay him to the Synthese.  But, the Consult's Brain Trust seems to be restricted to just Mek, Shauriatus, Aurang and Aurax (and then the Mutilated).  Were there any other Minds among the Consult for the past 2 millenia or has it just been those four?  If so, given their .. dilapidated status how did Consult programs like breeding the Inversi actually function?  How did they manage it with so little sane manpower? 

Your second question leads me to believe that pretty much everyone has missed a certain boat, in which case, I can only say, RAFO!


Ark?

See, the mind goes to Ark when one hears boat, but we're told Ark is dead or at least brain-dead.  The answer seems to be something we should've picked up on, so now I'm wondering if I need to reread the Synthese scenes.  Maybe they aren't what they seem? Or, all the Erratics actually just function inside the Ark.  It's a massive source of trauma for the Non-men.  Maybe, inside, it's not just Mek that's whole, but the whole gaggle of them.  They fall back into their memories of fighting through the Ark and regain some measure of sanity - enough to breed Sranc or do whatever intelligent labor is required inside the Ark.


It's time to do what web-comic authors do - stick books on your site for free and sell t-shirts, hats and stickers.  Circumfix bumper stickers will out-number Jesus fish in a few years.  Or instead of Calvin peeing decals, we can have Aurang ejaculating.  The possibilities are endless.

I would sooner shit in my own mouth with my dog's asshole.

Old fashioned that way, I guess. All I know is that the farther thoughts of commerce are from my mind, the sweeter the spice flows.

RIP my dreams of owning Sranc action-figures.  But... if you ever change your mind, it's incredible the sort of money people can make off of merchandise even with a small fan-base.  Twitch streamers (a concept that's .... too difficult to explain if you're unfamiliar with it), whose audience only typically only numbers in a few thousand, can make livable incomes off stupid shirts.
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: C'jara-Cinmoi on July 31, 2017, 08:42:49 pm

1. If the No-God 2.0 doesn't have Chorae attached to the carapace, why didn't Akka just blast the thing into oblivion at that moment where it's revealed to him?

2. Are Ajokli and the Gods still completely unaware of things with the Consult/No-God? Doesn't Ajokli have enough information now to infer that there are things that he cannot see ? I mean he was briefly right there interacting with the DunSult so he has to have some clue about whats going on. Or the God's just not reason that way?

3. It seems kind of foolish that the Consult would bring Dunyain back as prisoners. Was it simple arrogance that made them feel safe in doing so, or are you actually kind of saying that the Consult brain trust isn't that great and has degraded?

4. The Inchoroi are immortal in their physical bodies and were able to do the same for the Nonmen. Why were they not able to do that for Shaeonanra, a human? Why did he have to resort to that complicated and cumbersome method of soul trapping for staying alive?

5. Is/was Kelmomas one of the few?


1) Shock. Incredulity. You need to keep two voices straight in your head, and he couldn't even keep his feet working in tandem.

2) Thinking from an atemporal POV gives me a headache. Ajokli 'knows' (whatever this means from an eternal POV), but it takes juice, divine intervention, steering the space-time continuum this way and that, and the No-God has begun gnawing at the joists between the temporal and eternal.

3) Hmmm. I'm beginning to suspect that something rather significant has gone unrecognized. Either way, humility is not among the many virtues enjoyed by the Consult.

4) Because only Aurax and Aurang were left.

5) He can see sorcery, yes.
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: Woden on July 31, 2017, 08:44:17 pm
I'd kill for a horde of sranc figurines, muahahaha. And I'm sure I'm not the only one.
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: Punkhazard on July 31, 2017, 09:00:06 pm
Will Zeum feature prominently in The No-God?
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: themerchant on July 31, 2017, 09:05:27 pm
I'd kill for a horde of sranc figurines, muahahaha. And I'm sure I'm not the only one.

No way, think about what they'll actually look like. You'd get the jail for owning them lol
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: Hiro on July 31, 2017, 09:16:15 pm
I'd kill for a horde of sranc figurines, muahahaha. And I'm sure I'm not the only one.

No way, think about what they'll actually look like. You'd get the jail for owning them lol

Well. They would be nice in porcelain!
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: TLEILAXU on July 31, 2017, 09:24:01 pm
Whale-mother action figures or riot.
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: MSJ on July 31, 2017, 09:28:41 pm
If your not just being funny about what Maithenet was trying to say to Esme, "Kill Kelmommas", then it begs the question why didnt Kellhus? He surely knew the same and even says as much in Chapter 1. It cannot be because of his love for Esme, i cannot buy that! (Me. The guy for 2 years who has said emotions are what has guided Kellhus and the TTT.)

He had to know Kelmommas was the No-God, had to. He seemed to goad Esme into releasing him. You dont have to say im right, but did i pick up on some breadcrumbs at least?
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: themerchant on July 31, 2017, 09:32:55 pm
Whale-mother action figures or riot.

Heron-spear glass bong please.
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: Hiro on July 31, 2017, 09:36:16 pm
Whale-mother action figures or riot.

Heron-spear glass bong please.

Carapace, fully openable and floatable. With Kelmomas and Nau-Cayuti action figurines that fit inside. With mail-in tags to complete the set with a Whirlwind diorama.
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: themerchant on July 31, 2017, 09:37:58 pm
Whale-mother action figures or riot.

Heron-spear glass bong please.

Carapace, fully openable and floatable. With Kelmomas and Nau-Cayuti action figurines that fit inside. With mail-in tags to complete the set with a Whirlwind diorama.

LMAO , perfect. I'll take two :D
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: jurble on July 31, 2017, 09:54:22 pm
Here's a crackpot question:

Are the Mutilated Shauriatus?  They all talk one-by-one and Shae's original Wretches apparently only function because they're 'shorn of passion' and what better way to describe Dunyain?  So, Shauriatus alone resisted and Shauriatus won.  The scene is a pantomime on Shae's part, flattering Kellhus' Dunyain vanity (of course the Dunyain took over the Consult).   And, we the readers held the same conceits as Kellhus... we didn't see it either.

Edit:
Quote
l and the Truth spoke with but one soul.

Bakker, R. Scott. The Unholy Consult: Book Four of the Aspect-Emperor series (Aspect Emperor 4) (Kindle Location 7184). Little, Brown Book Group. Kindle Edition.

So... this quote is a pun... isn't it. -_-.
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: locke on July 31, 2017, 11:02:30 pm
In The Thousandfold Thought, Kellhus looks at his halos and names them, "The Light of Delusion". Was this a subtle hint that they are literally 'The Light of Ajokli (the deceiver)'?

Was the scene with Serwe's burning heart at the end of The Warrior Prophet possible because of Ajokli's intervention through Kellhus?

Did Cleric retrieve the qirri made from you from the statue of Cujara Cinmoi he encountered in Cil Aujis? Or was he just carrying it with him all these millennia?

Wutteat calls Nil Giccas a "clever Ishroi" when Nil Giccas claims "hell sustains him from within".  What does that mean?

Speaking of, is it pronounced Nil Geek-us or Nil Gick-us?

A lot of people are saying Kelmomas effectively has (and has always had) "invisible to all the gods in all times" superpowers?  Is that correct? that seems... excessive... to me.

I really loved the book. I loved that the chosen one seems to have failed. I have some quibbles (mainly I wanted to see the resolution of the Ishterebinth fight scene cliffhangered at the end of The Great Ordeal, like a TV show with no budget to show us the showdown, it's such a let down to miss this sequence), but for the most part I very much enjoyed the novel and the resolution to this series.

Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: Crtha on July 31, 2017, 11:15:32 pm
I like that crackpot, Jurble.

Hearkening back to my second question, I'm curious whether there is a difference between the Redemption the Judging Eye sees for Esme and the interventional Redemption the Hundred can grant?

Also, it seems given that the demonstrated Redemption (where Gods intervene) trumps whatever damnation a soul's intentionality has earned. Are all experiences remembered by the World independent of the fate of individual souls? Like some part of those Redeemed by the Gods stays in the Hells while their ego is restored in paradise? It sometimes seems to me the Outside is more like a drain for subjective experiences shorn from souls than an eternal destination. Any comment?
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: Callan S. on July 31, 2017, 11:54:18 pm
There's no money in books Callan.  It's all in shirts and stickers.  You think it was the book sales or even her movie cut that made Rowling a billionaire?  Nope, it was the swag.

Is being a billionare the goal? You can own a yacht without being a billionare, let alone simply be a crazy social change mediator and running a family.
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: Callan S. on August 01, 2017, 12:06:09 am
With Sorweel, did the white luck warrior condition activate at some point, or was it there all along and  we were left thinking he had a face painted on him, but actually he was going through a deterministic path all that time (or fatalistic, as you've described it before) - really Sorweel was a face painted on the determined path?

[Edited to add an actual book question! :) ]

At the risk of alienating my favorite author, I'm firmly believe piracy is a bogeyman used by large media companies.

I've read a lot of studies on the issue and if you throw out the media sponsored ones and the ones that equate each pirated copy to a lost sale, the actual effect of piracy isn't bad and even has positive benefits.

In other words, big media are skewing results in order to minimize their profits... The only universe in which this argument could have bite is one where humans are hardwired to rationalize guilt

How would skewing results reduce their actual profits?

I'm skeptical on the whole piracy effect as well (I don't pirate, just to be clear) - I'd like to see some science done on it -  if forced, whether they'd buy the book if they had no other access to it. I suspect many pirates have a hording condition - they don't read what they download (they can download more than they could read in a lifetime, after all), they just sit on it, like a dragon on its horde. Madly collecting meaning. But maybe some science would show they do read en masse and would pay en masse. Given the money in the various media industries, it's surprising they haven't paid what would be a relative pittance to run some science on this.
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: Wilshire on August 01, 2017, 02:08:08 am
Obviously you guys will do what you want, but for me it seems like asking an artist if he thinks he should not get paid seems to lead to an obvious answer.

If it were me, I'd concentrate on asking questions we as a community might struggle to answer about TSA. As Scott said, he won't be hanging around forever... But, your call folks.
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: obstinate on August 01, 2017, 02:38:28 am
For whatever reason, self-promotion is indistinguishable from self-hatred for me. It's hard to explain, but I am genuinely ENSLAVED by all this stuff.
I can't cast stones. We all have our neuroses.

What do you think about the perspective of the folks rooting for the Consult? I can see an argument -- the Outside seems to be net negative for the souls trapped in the universe of Earwa. Like the mother who takes the knife to her baby's throat when the Sranc attack, the case could be made that the Consult are doing the world a favor.

Right now, all is undetermined. The final fate of the world is looking grim (the above perspective notwithstanding), but there are many threads that might bear out to "save" Earwa from the No-God. At the end of the series of the same name, will we know with greater certainty, whether humanity on Earwa is on the fast train to extinction?

Also, will we ever find out what Kellhus' true mission was/is? Dunyain are mission, and it seems that I cannot even have an inkling of the man until I know his ultimate end. The Thousandfold Thought, yes, but what is it? Will we ever know with more certainty than today?
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: TLEILAXU on August 01, 2017, 03:20:57 am
Otherwise, who said anything about putting the genie in back in the box? It's about creating a culture that maximizes the number of people who do pay, and dispelling the ridiculous argument that giving away free content actually increases the amount of money ALL artists receive. It may help certain artists in certain circumstances, the same way giving away Toyotas at hockey games helps sell Toyotas. It's proselytizing Yars like you, the ones who think returning to the age patronage is good, 'natural,' and that the vast explosion of professionalized creativity arising out of IP was 'unnatural,' 'oppressive,' bad--YOU are the virus, the one slowly ensuring every piece of content is selling something other than itself, via patronage obligations, or product placement, or the simple terror of doing anything different as a profession.
I'm guilty of plenty of pirating myself, but I do agree with this. Leave patreon for youtube "content producers". Also, what's a Yar?

On topic: Why did Kellhus say to Proyas that the Inchoroi must win? Was he arguing from the perspective of the Consult?
Also, if the 100 are re-written in the shadow of Golgotterath, does that mean that if the World is closed to the Outside, the Gods will cease to exist as they have always not existed?
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: Crtha on August 01, 2017, 03:23:38 am
Yar = contemptuous term for pirates.

edit: can you comment on Anjencis' take on the Ark? Specifically I'm interested in the implication (even assuming he is completely wrong about the Ark and astrophysics) that there are no other planets in the Earwan solar system.
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: jurble on August 01, 2017, 03:34:53 am
On topic: Why did Kellhus say to Proyas that the Inchoroi must win? Was he arguing from the perspective of the Consult?


This is straightforward in the text.  Earwa is a world where everything has already happened, forward and backward in time.  So the fact that the Gods can't see the Ark or the Consult implies that they succeed at some point in the future.  It's the same reason why the Gods can't see Kelmomas.
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: Crtha on August 01, 2017, 03:48:06 am
This is straightforward in the text.  Earwa is a world where everything has already happened, forward and backward in time.  So the fact that the Gods can't see the Ark or the Consult implies that they succeed at some point in the future.  It's the same reason why the Gods can't see Kelmomas.

Except the way the gods intercede to alter the flow of history (and fail) implies that is only true in the Outside. Same with the way that prophecy effects the past. It's a real brain-bender and is not that straightforward to many of us.
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: jurble on August 01, 2017, 04:01:48 am
Nah, see the Gods see the world fixed in time and the world is fixed in time.  It's just that the Gods are blind dumbos.  The world is like.. a series of books (to extend a metaphor Kalbear used on Westeros) everything is written.  But the Gods have Volume 1 and the No-God stole Volume 2 (and onwards) from the shelf - and the Gods, lacking Reason, don't realize what's going on and assume the series ends in Volume 1, even though the rest of the books still exist.  The analogy sorta fails in that.... Volume 1 has invisible text... that only the Living can read.. because the Consult is using invisible ink... that they got in Volume 2.  But THE GOD can also read the invisible ink (but his fractured portions can't.  Ajokli notices the weird gaps in the text, though).

Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: fecklessfool on August 01, 2017, 04:33:00 am
Was Esmenet actually Kellhus' darkness?
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: Callan S. on August 01, 2017, 04:53:52 am
I actually have a version of that final Cnaiur scene that's more than twenty years old - it's been baked in since the very beginning. For me, it's always been a kind of bookend for the series, the becoming infernal/geological of the hate that initially preserved him, but leaves him hijacked
Is that what you meant when you'd previously said Cnaiurs arc was done?

I thought that was a dirty, dirty lie :p then I wondered if you meant done as a human.
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: Triskele on August 01, 2017, 05:01:42 am
Scott - I bought a nice, crisp hardback this week and have mowed through it.  I have a quick comment which is that, in the past year, I've reread The Great Ordeal a few times and am more impressed with it each time.  At the moment it might be my favorite book of yours.

I am sure I will continue to reread The Unholy Consult and will have questions stemming from that, but the one that I want to ask right now, while it stems from this book, reaches back to the very beginning of the story, and it is this:  when Kellhus first encounters a Nonman in the woods said Nonman (Mek, presumably) says something to the effect of "I have fought for and against the No-God in the wars that authored this wilderness (big paraphrase)."  That suggested to me that it could have been the No-God that fought on two opposite sides rather than the speaking Nonman erratic.  This seems more plausible now that we know that Nau-Cayuti was the first iteration of the No-God.  Was this a deliberate clue all along about the identity of the first No-God? 

ETA:  I'm not even certain that I didn't try to ask this in another thread at some point, erratic as I myself have become. 
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: Callan S. on August 01, 2017, 05:16:22 am
1. Do you have a Patreon? I am aware of other mid and even A-list writers who are using these as a means of securing a stable income between books. It's also an interesting way to let your readers invest in you, as opposed to only consuming that which you produce (I'm not sure if this distinction makes the idea more or less attractive). But I would certainly contribute a few dollars a month if you had one.


My wife mentioned this to me a couple months back and a bolt of terror went up my spine. For whatever reason, self-promotion is indistinguishable from self-hatred for me. It's hard to explain, but I am genuinely ENSLAVED by all this stuff. I've spent decades now, trying to batter and berate myself into a more 'well rounded' human, but now that I've turned 50, I've resigned myself to being honest to my two-dimensional nature, and just to write whatever must be written.
It's funny, I think of myself as a more mercenary soul in contrast. Worse, I actually want to explore these economic vices and thumb screws - a kind of 'Grim Buck' genre. I think I started out as a teen, making up a Gambit rip off called Debt, who could only kinetically charge objects people cared about (thus money was something best used as a weapon - so he was generally broke. But sentimental items blow up good as well...) and the Lone Shark, mercenary chartered accountant, violently readjusting the fiscal balance sheets of the world where debt has been sold over and over until the very fist person who owed the debt now owns it...somehow. Weird years latter seeing this debt selling thing actually happening. Anyway, that's my plug, now buy my stickers, ya'll! lol! Sorry, wanted a chin wag and I'm never gunna get to Zaudunyanicon! And the contrasting fiscal rejection fascinates me.

Edit: I think I just clicked on the mention of Akka having to keep two voices in his head at once to do magic and Kelmomas having two souls and being invisible to the gods. Yerp, took me awhile!
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: SmilerLoki on August 01, 2017, 05:55:22 am
@C'jara-Cinmoi

Thank you for your answers to my questions and those of others! It's all very helpful and exciting.
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: Hoary on August 01, 2017, 08:51:41 am
If we don't start paying for books we'll soon start getting books with LITERAL pop up ads... And there goes the last huff of breath of the literary world.

A few questions:

1. How does Serwa know about the 100 stones? Did she commune in some way with the absolute?

2. If Kelmomas was always the No-God, and yet to BECOME the No-God he needed to be the No-God to begin with, otherwise he would have died on the way (or Kellhus would, as he wouldn't be able to stop the WLW). So is this not a paradox? Or is this some kind of loop outside regular time?

3. Why is Ajokli hunted by the other gods? I think it was said that he sees things they do not, but what is it that makes them want to destroy him so badly?

Thanks again for answering questions, this really helps and increases my appreciation.
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: Crtha on August 01, 2017, 09:07:40 am
1. How does Serwa know about the 100 stones? Did she commune in some way with the absolute?

Ooh, that was such a nice leitmotif. Koringhus had one hundred revelations, the last one delivered him to Oblivion. He also had one hundred stones, the last one saved his son. Serwa faces one hundred chorae, the last one punishes her. One hundred Gods, the last one betrays them all.
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: Hoary on August 01, 2017, 09:12:20 am
1. How does Serwa know about the 100 stones? Did she commune in some way with the absolute?

Ooh, that was such a nice leitmotif. Koringhus had one hundred revelations, the last one delivered him to Oblivion. He also had one hundred stones, the last one saved his son. Serwa faces one hundred chorae, the last one punishes her. One hundred Gods, the last one betrays them all.

Haha, that's true.
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: H on August 01, 2017, 10:22:59 am
Scott - I bought a nice, crisp hardback this week and have mowed through it.  I have a quick comment which is that, in the past year, I've reread The Great Ordeal a few times and am more impressed with it each time.  At the moment it might be my favorite book of yours.

I am sure I will continue to reread The Unholy Consult and will have questions stemming from that, but the one that I want to ask right now, while it stems from this book, reaches back to the very beginning of the story, and it is this:  when Kellhus first encounters a Nonman in the woods said Nonman (Mek, presumably) says something to the effect of "I have fought for and against the No-God in the wars that authored this wilderness (big paraphrase)."  That suggested to me that it could have been the No-God that fought on two opposite sides rather than the speaking Nonman erratic.  This seems more plausible now that we know that Nau-Cayuti was the first iteration of the No-God.  Was this a deliberate clue all along about the identity of the first No-God? 

ETA:  I'm not even certain that I didn't try to ask this in another thread at some point, erratic as I myself have become. 

Considering this is probably my favorite line in the series, I do recall that Scott said previously that this was mostly just a sort of typo, it should really have said Consult where it says No-God.  But we can also just chock that up to Mek being crazy and misspeaking too, if we really want to.
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: C'jara-Cinmoi on August 01, 2017, 01:00:53 pm
Will Zeum feature prominently in The No-God?

It has no choice.
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: C'jara-Cinmoi on August 01, 2017, 01:06:38 pm
If your not just being funny about what Maithenet was trying to say to Esme, "Kill Kelmommas", then it begs the question why didnt Kellhus? He surely knew the same and even says as much in Chapter 1. It cannot be because of his love for Esme, i cannot buy that! (Me. The guy for 2 years who has said emotions are what has guided Kellhus and the TTT.)

He had to know Kelmommas was the No-God, had to. He seemed to goad Esme into releasing him. You dont have to say im right, but did i pick up on some breadcrumbs at least?

Why see Kellhus' abilities as cosmic rather than relative to the worldborn? He is 'much seeing,' not all seeing, and what lies closest is very often the most difficult to see. (You could say I've hung a whole theory of consciousness about that fact!)
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: C'jara-Cinmoi on August 01, 2017, 01:08:01 pm
Here's a crackpot question:

Are the Mutilated Shauriatus?  They all talk one-by-one and Shae's original Wretches apparently only function because they're 'shorn of passion' and what better way to describe Dunyain?  So, Shauriatus alone resisted and Shauriatus won.  The scene is a pantomime on Shae's part, flattering Kellhus' Dunyain vanity (of course the Dunyain took over the Consult).   And, we the readers held the same conceits as Kellhus... we didn't see it either.

Edit:
Quote
l and the Truth spoke with but one soul.

Bakker, R. Scott. The Unholy Consult: Book Four of the Aspect-Emperor series (Aspect Emperor 4) (Kindle Location 7184). Little, Brown Book Group. Kindle Edition.

So... this quote is a pun... isn't it. -_-.

RAFO
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: Walter on August 01, 2017, 01:08:27 pm
I'm aware that a question about 'The No-God' is obviously treading on the ground of spoilers...but I gotta ask.

Will the readers make the acquaintance of the notorious fool...Likaro?
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: Madness on August 01, 2017, 01:15:52 pm
(click to show/hide)
...

...
...

I haven't been following the thread so I'm not sure where this has gone off the rails as I'm not doing more than a cursory follow. I won't tolerate a derail of this type though, especially not in this thread.

I'm all for asking Bakker if he wants to participate in threads on topic but I'd prefer if neither of you, author or fan, hijack this thread. I don't mind the heat, and in fact prefer fierce conversation, but I'm sure both parties can work to mediate the personal slights in their responses.

I doubt there's more than a handful of pirates on this website, if some innocents do give pirates traffic citing passages from the books online. Statistics from the music industry also suggest that the majority of pirates are people who wouldn't or can't buy the product in the first place. The implication that anyone can straight convert the numbers involved in piracy directly into sales is false.

Keep it classy, Second Apocalypse.
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: H on August 01, 2017, 01:18:46 pm
Keep it classy, Second Apocalypse.

I second this.  I think everyone's position is pretty well laid out and no one is particularly interested in changing views.

Let's move on.
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: profgrape on August 01, 2017, 02:54:20 pm
Scott, thanks for taking the time to answer our questions!  The Unholy Consult was one of the most emotionally impactful works of fiction I've ever encountered; there were several parts where I was so drained that I had to put the book down for the day (clearly no Dunyain blood here).

A couple of questions on the Erratics serving Golgotterath:

1. Does the IF help to "ground" Erratics?  While there are a couple of moments where Mek's attention drifts away during his confrontation with Kellhus, he seemed fairly with it compared to Nin'Ciljaris.

2. Is Nin'Sariccas, the Nonmen Emissary to the Great Ordeal, going to turn up at some point?  I was surprised that he didn't appear in TGO or TUC.
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: Likaro on August 01, 2017, 04:17:37 pm
Hopefully we are done with the piracy debate. Verily,

"I say unto you my brothers, he that pillages of the works both sacred and profane shall be judged in the Outside...and his soul shall rot- eternally."

Fifth Gospel of Inri Sejenus, attributed

I bought three copies to do my part for the cause. Scott, I do wish however you could stomach just a middling level of promotion. Your website doesn't even announce you have a new book out. Those of us that have eaten of the Sranc cannot get enough and are rabid for the books, but the unwashed hordes of the Orthodox may not even be aware of the new book or why they should read the series in the first place. We are spreading the UnHoly Gospel with fire and sword but it takes time... and ever are men keen to cling to their shitty fantasy novels.

Couple more questions Scott

1. Was Kellhus rocking Malowebi on his hip for an important reason at the end there? Or was it just a nice way of us having a narrative view of the events?

2. Was Kellhus' true intent to let Ajokli free and turn the world into a living hell?

3. Can the God or the aspects of the God die or be killed?

4. Will Eanna or other continents become involved in the next series?

5. Will we find out more about Seswatha in the next series? Is he in Hell in the current time? (Please continue with the dreams as they are some of your best scenes)

6. In regards to Sorweel, I thought you were setting things up with the Amiolas and all that that he had converted to the Kellhus cause. Then he seems to do a 180 back to Yatwer assassin and we know what happens then. What pushed him back the other way so quickly? I felt kind of confused by that transition. I was hoping he and Serwa would be the power couple in the next series. Alas.

7. What happened to the little kid at the end of Thousand Fold Thought?

8. Why was Emilidis trying to get into Golgotterath when the Dragon got him?

9. Was Aurang using Aporetic wards when Kellhus took him down?

Thanks!

Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: jurble on August 01, 2017, 04:35:19 pm
9. Was Aurang using Aporetic wards when Kellhus took him down?

This was something I was wondering as well (he says he practices other Arcana in TWP and Saccarees spells dissipate against his wards), but I was planning on saving it for the AMA tomorrow to help bolster the comment count :O.
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: Wilshire on August 01, 2017, 04:42:50 pm
Yeah we all wish that Likario, but we have our own agency as well. We built this TSA forum on our own, someone else built the PoN wikia, and others the reddit page, facebook page, wikipedia, wikiquote, etc. There's a thread encouraging people to review the book(s), we make podcasts, people are attempting to create boardgames and RPG rulesets, there's a TUC trailer someone on facebook made...

Heck, one year we even printed a few hundred "Who are the Dunyain" bookmarks and slipped them into every fantasy publication we could find. (Years later, at least one forum member found this place through those, imo that's a win).

I've asked a few times if anyone planned on updating the official website. I even put together half a demo on Wix before I got bored, its not hard, but the keys to that door are held by Scott's  'website guy' that "maintains" the official site - another dead place ;) .

So there's plenty we can do, though gestures from Bakker like being here (Thanks again!), doing AMA, etc. do help tremendously.

"We've" been of the opinion for years now that if Scott won't do it, we'll do our damnedest, even should we have to drag him along kicking and screaming :) . Zaudunyanicon was planned and paid for before we ever got a commitment from Scott - who graciously isn't charging us for his time .

Maybe we should set up a swag shop - not sure what we'd do with the proceeds as we've never made (or asked for) a single dime. Though some of these things to cost a few bucks to run, its not like we've actually done or created anything (my opinion at least) - its all derivative from TSA obviously. Though then I'd have to pay income taxes on any profits... might be worth figuring out though if it'd help the cause.

There is a donate button on the official rscottbakker website should you feel compelled.

Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: H on August 01, 2017, 04:52:50 pm
This was something I was wondering as well (he says he practices other Arcana in TWP and Saccarees spells dissipate against his wards), but I was planning on saving it for the AMA tomorrow to help bolster the comment count :O.

You know, I spent literally years trying to understand how Aurang could know both Aporetic and the Gnosis on the strength of that "other Arcana" comment, only to realize I critically misunderstood what he said.  I am pretty sure now what he means is that it is easy to walk through Wards when the person who cast them is busy casting other magic.  In other words, Akka's Wards are not very effective while he is training Kellhus.

I do still wonder if someone could know both the Aporetics and the Gnosis though.
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on August 01, 2017, 05:41:00 pm
(Just my luck, I am gone for 4 days and C'jara-Cinmoi himself descends to the forum to answer questions...)

Anyway, I would like to join everyone in thanking Scott for these amazing series. I've only been a fan for less than a year, but it has been a throughly enjoyable experience so far.

I have a few questions as well (I had more, but these are the ones I haven't seen answered yet):
-Was Mimara's 6-month long pregnancy deliberate?
-Will we ever find out what Aulisi's fate was?
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: Dunkelheit on August 01, 2017, 07:43:07 pm
This is straightforward in the text.  Earwa is a world where everything has already happened, forward and backward in time.  So the fact that the Gods can't see the Ark or the Consult implies that they succeed at some point in the future.  It's the same reason why the Gods can't see Kelmomas.

Except the way the gods intercede to alter the flow of history (and fail) implies that is only true in the Outside. Same with the way that prophecy effects the past. It's a real brain-bender and is not that straightforward to many of us.

I agree with Jurble. Everything has already happened forward and back in time, including the actions of the gods. Yatwer makes the first White Luck thinking it has 100% chance of succeeding, once it fails she and the future she sees changes so she pick Sorweel to finish the job. But she has already picked out Sorweel before the first one fails! So even if she couldn't foresee the future where the first White Luck fails, it was still doomed to fail, otherwise the updated version of Yatwer (the one that knows the White Luck failed) wouldn't have picked Sorweel. So it seems like there is one future bound to happen, even if the gods can't see it.

See? Super straight forward. (jk)
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: Callan S. on August 01, 2017, 07:48:18 pm
It wouldn't be a Bakker thread if it didn't gnarl its way off in a direction random and kinda making sense at the same time!! Plus more posts popped up while I typed this, so...

As for your analogy you're ignoring a vital difference.  Yes, I do go to a grocery store and pay for my groceries.  If I took them without paying, that's theft.  The difference here is that no physical copy is actually taken.  Suppose we developed the technology to just replicate food like in Star Trek.  Would that be stealing?  That's a closer analogy than stealing food at a supermarket.
A physical copy is indeed taken? Digitizing isn't supernatural.

And star trek doesn't explain if people it's setting have to pay for the energy of replication, or if they have some kind of socialist (or something like that) system that would actual support an author and his/her family, rather than leave them to the winds of the open market.

Assuming star trek has some kind of 'look after each other' system, you seem to be treating it that being able to copy books means we have that benefit of the star trek world as well? As if social care goes hand in hand with technology? It sounds like a faith in technology.


ThoughtsofThelli,

You managed to plot out the number of months of the pregnancy? The detective skills of some fantasy readers is amazing :)
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on August 01, 2017, 09:45:54 pm
ThoughtsofThelli,

You managed to plot out the number of months of the pregnancy? The detective skills of some fantasy readers is amazing :)

Back when I first read the series, I was curious about when Mimara would give birth (also as a way to try to figure out how much time TUC would span). I noticed that the chapter in which she had sex with Achamian took place in early spring of 4132. Come TUC, she gave birth in early autumn of 4132, so she was only pregnant for around 6 months (and I don't think it's a matter of seasons being longer in Erwa, because looking back at PON Serw was pregnant from spring to winter of 4111).
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: bridgeburner on August 01, 2017, 09:50:22 pm
Would The Judging Eye be able to see Kelmomas? If he is invisible to the gods, and the Judging Eye is (I think?) a manifestation of the gods or one god or the god of gods, then would he be invisible to it?
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: Madness on August 01, 2017, 10:52:09 pm
I created a new thread for the content derailing this thread, Midlist Authors & Online Piracy (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=2310.0).

I'll probably even join in on the conversation if it continues therein. I've always enjoyed sounding Bakker on a variety of subjects but the growing back and forth really takes away from fans who simply want to take the opportunity to ask questions.

Cheers.
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: codebread on August 02, 2017, 12:42:52 am
Thanks, Madness.

If it's not too late to ask anything with the AMA being tomorrow and all...

How would you define death in the context of TSA's universe? It's something that I've been curious about considering the physics we've seen. Perhaps this is a question with an obvious answer, but I'm curious to hear your thoughts on it. We know that Heaven and Hell (for lack of better words) exist, as well as "Oblivion". We know that when a person "dies" in the physical sense their soul moves on to another place and continues to experience things, good or bad. Is death the act of your soul moving to one of these places (i.e leaving your body permanently), or is death simply related only to a creature's physical form, regardless of where the soul goes (i.e what happened to Malowebi)? Is there a form of soul "death" (moving to Oblivion, perhaps)?

Would Malowebi still be considered "alive" because he has a consciousness (his soul?) tied to the world?


Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: MisterGuyMan on August 02, 2017, 01:56:12 am
(click to show/hide)
I'm still currently trying to see how feasible it would be to attend Zauduyanicon or BakkerCon! on as I prefer to call it.  I'm hoping this disagreement won't prevent you from signing my books.

[I edited out the paragraphs here since they pertain to our private Piracy argument and posted the complete reply in Madness' new thread.]

With respect, and this is a self serving request, I ask that you reconsider your stance on alternate sources of revenue if this issue really concerns you.  I'm trying to bridge our disagreement into a productive request.  There were a handful of people here already showing interest in action figures.  The custom Kellhus figure I mentioned earlier will probably cost me over $500 to make and that's largely because you pay a premium for custom work if there's no official stuff to buy.  I would support you via patron if you ever decided to go that route.  Wilshire was upgrading your books into these awesome leatherbound and I said I would only sign up for a set  if you would agree to sign them as a semi official first edition collector set.  Your fans are dying to support you if you let us.

Consider this an olive branch.  I feel l have supported my position enough [refer to Madness' new thread if you wish] so you can at least see where I stand even though I know we will continue to disagree.  I firmly believe consumers generally want to and continue to prove even today that they do prefer to support creators.
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: Dunkelheit on August 02, 2017, 10:58:37 am
Would The Judging Eye be able to see Kelmomas? If he is invisible to the gods, and the Judging Eye is (I think?) a manifestation of the gods or one god or the god of gods, then would he be invisible to it?
The is a scene in TUC where it does. It sees the whirlwind.
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: bridgeburner on August 02, 2017, 03:40:54 pm
Would The Judging Eye be able to see Kelmomas? If he is invisible to the gods, and the Judging Eye is (I think?) a manifestation of the gods or one god or the god of gods, then would he be invisible to it?
The is a scene in TUC where it does. It sees the whirlwind.

I'm trying to find this scene. I went back and re-read the scene where Mimara first appears at the Umbilicus and there is a scene (though it's from Kel's POV) and it mentions that she seems not to see him at first, seems to look through him, and then she slowly smiles as if he suddenly appears (maybe the Judging Eye closing?). So I think that answers my question. If you happen to find the scene where she sees the whirlwind when looking at him I'd be interested. Thanks.
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: Redeagl on August 02, 2017, 09:30:46 pm
The AMA is finished, but I am still hungry. I hope Bakker will return to serve some Meat. In this case; Can you confirm or deny that Likaro will appear on-screen ( well,on-page in this case)  in TNG?
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: Sausuna on August 16, 2017, 05:59:56 pm
Would The Judging Eye be able to see Kelmomas? If he is invisible to the gods, and the Judging Eye is (I think?) a manifestation of the gods or one god or the god of gods, then would he be invisible to it?
The is a scene in TUC where it does. It sees the whirlwind.

I'm trying to find this scene. I went back and re-read the scene where Mimara first appears at the Umbilicus and there is a scene (though it's from Kel's POV) and it mentions that she seems not to see him at first, seems to look through him, and then she slowly smiles as if he suddenly appears (maybe the Judging Eye closing?). So I think that answers my question. If you happen to find the scene where she sees the whirlwind when looking at him I'd be interested. Thanks.
I think this might be a reference to when she sees the No-God after he descends from the Ark under an illusion. She's the only one who can seemingly see through said illusion.
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: EkyannusIII on August 30, 2017, 05:01:07 pm
Meat can be hard on the digestion, I know. I have a little salad I can offer, for those suffering more extreme bowel cramps.

Was Maithanet damned?
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: EkyannusIII on August 30, 2017, 05:55:20 pm
Meat can be hard on the digestion, I know. I have a little salad I can offer, for those suffering more extreme bowel cramps.

Some attachments FYI

(http://imgur.com/a/92S7K)




(http://imgur.com/a/lnvKb)
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: EkyannusIII on September 01, 2017, 05:14:03 pm
Does Kellhus meet Koringhus in the Outside?  How about Inri Sejenus?
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: EkyannusIII on September 01, 2017, 05:16:44 pm
One of the other Dunyain at the end is mentioned as having no scars. I consider that ominous since even Koringhus, no slouch, had been badly cut up by the end of the purging of the Thousand Thousand Halls.  Are we seeing a Dunyain more capable then Koringhus and Kellhus?
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: MSJ on September 01, 2017, 06:22:33 pm
Quote
Does Kellhus meet Koringhus in the Outside?  How about Inri Sejenus?

If you take my take on it and Kellhus is the figure in his dreams, maybe he could summon who he chooses to his domain. Or....as Sarl says, "Sometimes the dead bounce and end up behind the eyes of babes!" I'm telling you, the Baby Kellhus theory is making more and more sense. Think on it.
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: EkyannusIII on December 14, 2017, 07:51:14 pm
ANSWER ME BAKKER
Title: Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
Post by: Wilshire on December 14, 2017, 08:23:01 pm
ANSWER ME BAKKER
Sir, please step calmly away from the whirlwind ...