The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The Unholy Consult => Topic started by: MSJ on July 28, 2017, 09:38:56 pm

Title: [TUC Spoilers]Decapitant, Baby or his own Niché
Post by: MSJ on July 28, 2017, 09:38:56 pm
Well, from the Q&A we definitely know that Akokli cannot find Kellhus. Theories have been put forth on ways he has escaped. From Bakkers answer i am now leaning towards Decapitant. But, i also like to think that that serene place he talked to himself in his dreams is his own little niché in the Outside. That he's warring to kill the 100 and end the soul munching, rewrite the rules of the Outside, so to say. But, please, id live to hear your thoughts on where he is. Because he isnt God food, that has been confirmed. Also confirmed, is that he tricked the Trickster, as ive been saying. Sorry, Redeagl, youll be seeing more of Kellhus.

Quote from:  Jurble
Not to derail this thread, but the Baby Kellhus Theory (henceforth to be referred to as M+A=K) isn't contingent on Kellhus knowing Mimara has TJE.  Its only presumption is that Kellhus is now a baby.

If you want me to, i will go back to Westeros and here and quote your posts. You inferred that the Tapestry was proof of Baby Kellhus, it confirmed it. Mimara's baby was vorn before the rise of the No-God, so it got its soul from the Outside. The only way possible that Kellhus became Mimara's baby is if when he died he went ro the Outside and at the time of birth his soul went to the babies. I guess its plausible, but he would of had ro have known a lot about Mimara. If he knew nothing about the meaning of the Tapestry, that tells me he knew nothing of her being pregnant.

Anyhow, i am open to any all all theories and would live to hear all your ideas.

[Wilshire: Editing title slightly to remove possible spoiler content - it's getting harder to come up with good ones!]
Title: Re: Kellhus-Decapitant, Baby or his own Niché in the Outside
Post by: TheCulminatingApe on July 28, 2017, 09:57:23 pm
The only way possible that Kellhus became Mimara's baby is if when he died he went ro the Outside and at the time of birth his soul went to the babies. I guess its plausible, but he would of had ro have known a lot about Mimara. If he knew nothing about the meaning of the Tapestry, that tells me he knew nothing of her being pregnant.

Anyhow, i am open to any all all theories and would live to hear all your ideas.

Wouldn't Kellhus have seen Mimara when they met prior to the battle, or am I mis-remembering and only Achamian was there?  If they did meet, then he would know she was pregnant and may well have be able to tell it was twins (Koringhus could work this out, so presumably Kellhus could as well).
Title: Re: Kellhus-Decapitant, Baby or his own Niché in the Outside
Post by: MSJ on July 28, 2017, 10:12:16 pm
Mimara never seen him once when they joined the Ordeal, until holograph Kellhus appeared, IIRC. I could be wrong, dont think so though.
Title: Re: Kellhus-Decapitant, Baby or his own Niché in the Outside
Post by: Francis Buck's Crush on July 28, 2017, 11:25:26 pm
Mimara never seen him once when they joined the Ordeal, until holograph Kellhus appeared, IIRC. I could be wrong, dont think so though.
I think Mimara saw him in the last Whelming, though my memory is bad, he could have had already teleported by the time Mimara bypassed Kayutas and Serwa.
Title: Re: Kellhus-Decapitant, Baby or his own Niché in the Outside
Post by: MisterGuyMan on July 28, 2017, 11:37:29 pm
Bakker just confirmed that Kellhus is no baby in the Q&A. 
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Kellhus-Decapitant, Baby or his own Niché in the Outside
Post by: MSJ on July 29, 2017, 12:23:44 am
Quote from:  MGM
Bakker just confirmed that Kellhus is no baby in the Q&A.
 

I know, i asked the question. But, to believers of said theory, here is their space and chance to argue their case. :)
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Kellhus-Decapitant, Baby or his own Niché in the Outside
Post by: MisterGuyMan on July 29, 2017, 12:51:43 am
Quote from:  MGM
Bakker just confirmed that Kellhus is no baby in the Q&A.
 

I know, i asked the question. But, to believers of said theory, here is their space and chance to argue their case. :)
I would point out that Bakker has lied before.  He said Cnaür's story was done in TTT and... yeah...
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Kellhus-Decapitant, Baby or his own Niché in the Outside
Post by: MSJ on July 29, 2017, 12:54:20 am
True. Alas, i will take him at his word, this older, wiser RSB. ;)
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Kellhus-Decapitant, Baby or his own Niché in the Outside
Post by: jurble on July 29, 2017, 02:25:02 am
Look closely at what Bakker said:
Quote
Um, Kellhus is no baby.
Do you see what I see?
Quote
Kellhus is no baby.
Look closer.
Quote
no baby.

Kellhus is the No-Baby.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Kellhus-Decapitant, Baby or his own Niché in the Outside
Post by: Bolivar on July 29, 2017, 04:10:33 am
I'm not sure what to take from Bakker's "Well, Ajokli can't find him" in regards to the question he responded to. The more I thought about it today, the scene seems to confirm that the rumors are true, that the Aspect Emperor had been possessed during his incursions to the Outside. He goes from defying the Mutilated to conscripting them into some kind of dark reign of terror.
Title: Re: Kellhus-Decapitant, Baby or his own Niché in the Outside
Post by: codebread on July 29, 2017, 04:16:24 am
Mimara never seen him once when they joined the Ordeal, until holograph Kellhus appeared, IIRC. I could be wrong, dont think so though.
I think Mimara saw him in the last Whelming, though my memory is bad, he could have had already teleported by the time Mimara bypassed Kayutas and Serwa.

Kellhus appears outside the tent while Mimara is in labor (screaming her lungs out, at that) while he speaks with Akka. Esmenet appears at the end of the conversation to berate Akka for leaving, but sees Kellhus standing there.

There's no way Kellhus wasn't aware of Mimara's situation. If he didn't hear her, he certainly saw it in the faces of Akka and Esmenet.

I don't think he's the baby, though.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Kellhus-Decapitant, Baby or his own Niché in the Outside
Post by: Madness on July 29, 2017, 01:22:20 pm
Well, from the Q&A we definitely know that Akokli cannot find Kellhus. Theories have been put forth on ways he has escaped. From Bakkers answer i am now leaning towards Decapitant. But, i also like to think that that serene place he talked to himself in his dreams is his own little niché in the Outside. That he's warring to kill the 100 and end the soul munching, rewrite the rules of the Outside, so to say. But, please, id live to hear your thoughts on where he is. Because he isnt God food, that has been confirmed. Also confirmed, is that he tricked the Trickster, as ive been saying. Sorry, Redeagl, youll be seeing more of Kellhus.

Anyhow, i am open to any all all theories and would live to hear all your ideas.

To the bold, I'm not sure that's confirmed - mind you, I haven't read through the thread in full yet.

I think Mimara saw him in the last Whelming, though my memory is bad, he could have had already teleported by the time Mimara bypassed Kayutas and Serwa.

Yup. The Eye refuses to open, as far as I recall the line (and that's potentially a misquote now).

I'm not sure what to take from Bakker's "Well, Ajokli can't find him" in regards to the question he responded to. The more I thought about it today, the scene seems to confirm that the rumors are true, that the Aspect Emperor had been possessed during his incursions to the Outside. He goes from defying the Mutilated to conscripting them into some kind of dark reign of terror.

To the bold, it's been suggested that Ajokli is able to enter the World through a suitable host and only at the World's deepest topoi (Golgotterath/The Golden Room).

The contention between readers right now seems to be whether Kellhus and Ajokli made a deal or if Kellhus didn't know about Ajokli's manipulations at all.

There's no way Kellhus wasn't aware of Mimara's situation. If he didn't hear her, he certainly saw it in the faces of Akka and Esmenet.

Lol, I'd suggest that Fate/Anagke had a greater role midwifing Achamian and Mimara's journey than did Kellhus.

But I also think there are reasons we could rationalize Kellhus' conditioning of their journey that don't result in Baby-Kellhus ;).
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Kellhus-Decapitant, Baby or his own Niché in the Outside
Post by: themerchant on July 29, 2017, 05:23:10 pm
Akka and Mimara were there to get Esme to safety after what happened happened. I reckon that's the secret mission Koringhus sensed, i think it's stated explicitly in the text in TUC somewhere, about how Akka thinks he's brought Mimara to judge Kellhus but in actual fact it;s to reclaim esme.

Also read the Last Whelming chapter from Mimara;s point of view , as Kellhus looks up to her and "sees" then straight away grabs Kel and teleports through, will try and get the quote.

And in her sould she screams, open!Open! you must open!But the eyes refuses to listen.It is as stubborn as she.and her step-fathers mortal blue eyes see... before waxing sudden,shining white.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Kellhus-Decapitant, Baby or his own Niché in the Outside
Post by: MSJ on July 29, 2017, 08:00:23 pm
Quote from:  Madness
To the bold, I'm not sure that's confirmed - mind you, I haven't read through the thread in full yet.

I asked if Kellhus made it to the Outside, Bakkers response was, "Well, Ajokli cant find him."

So, we also know he's not a baby, which was straight up confirmed. His answer to my question would suggest that he did indeed trick the Trickster. Either a Decapitant or he's in his own lil niche in the Outside somewhere. Id say that the Decapitant theory is most likely.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Kellhus-Decapitant, Baby or his own Niché in the Outside
Post by: TLEILAXU on July 29, 2017, 09:36:40 pm
Given that answer and given the glossary entry on the Decapitants I think the most likely explanation is that he is hiding in the head next to Malowebi.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Kellhus-Decapitant, Baby or his own Niché in the Outside
Post by: Madness on July 30, 2017, 02:54:13 pm
Quote from:  Madness
To the bold, I'm not sure that's confirmed - mind you, I haven't read through the thread in full yet.

I asked if Kellhus made it to the Outside, Bakkers response was, "Well, Ajokli cant find him."

So, we also know he's not a baby, which was straight up confirmed. His answer to my question would suggest that he did indeed trick the Trickster. Either a Decapitant or he's in his own lil niche in the Outside somewhere. Id say that the Decapitant theory is most likely.

Given that answer and given the glossary entry on the Decapitants I think the most likely explanation is that he is hiding in the head next to Malowebi.

I don't think he tricked Ajokli or that Kellhus made a move to hide. I think he just got plain stuck in the other Decapitant.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Kellhus-Decapitant, Baby or his own Niché in the Outside
Post by: MSJ on July 30, 2017, 03:37:51 pm
How, when Kellhus clearly comes back before being choraed. Its clearly Kellhus who says, "Kel...what?" (Paraphrasing).

So at that point he wasnt in a decapitants head...correct? And, it sure seems after reading those scenes again, that he goaded Esme to release Kel. No, i think he tricked Ajokli. He has come to believe in humanity. He needed Ajokli to defeat the Consult, but was never going to allow a hell on Earth.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Kellhus-Decapitant, Baby or his own Niché in the Outside
Post by: Yellow on July 30, 2017, 07:28:05 pm
How, when Kellhus clearly comes back before being choraed. Its clearly Kellhus who says, "Kel...what?" (Paraphrasing).

I don't think that's necessarily true. It could be Ajokli pretending to be him. Before Kellhus enters the Golden Room, Malowebi notes that he does a lot of surveyors chanting. Maybe he's giving Ajokli his head. So knows, is what I'm saying. I don't don't take anything for granted any more.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Kellhus-Decapitant, Baby or his own Niché in the Outside
Post by: Yellow on July 30, 2017, 07:40:06 pm
Sorry, that was all on my phone. For surveyors, read sorcerous. Other typos also abound.

Basically, it's a good point but I assume nothing. Ajokli might not be able to find Kellhus because he's on the belt, or because he's in the Outside and the Outside is shut. I assume nothing any more!
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Kellhus-Decapitant, Baby or his own Niché in the Outside
Post by: MSJ on July 30, 2017, 08:07:31 pm
Quote from:  Yellow
I don't think that's necessarily true. It could be Ajokli pretending to be him. Before Kellhus enters the Golden Room, Malowebi notes that he does a lot of surveyors chanting. Maybe he's giving Ajokli his head. So knows, is what I'm saying. I don't don't take anything for granted any more.

No, no, no we cant go changing the rules. The Gods are blind to Kel, even Ajokli. Layers of revelation, remember thats what makes Bakker unique. Kel was never Ajokli's Narindar, thats whats so funny. Kel stopped The White-Luck Warrior because he wasnt in the timeline that Yatwer had seen to kill Kellhus. He essentially made a alternate timeline by showing up in the throne room. Same in the Golden Room. If anything, Kellhus realized this and used it to his advantage.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Kellhus-Decapitant, Baby or his own Niché in the Outside
Post by: MSJ on July 30, 2017, 09:50:24 pm
Quote from:  Yellow
Basically, it's a good point but I assume nothing. Ajokli might not be able to find Kellhus because he's on the belt, or because he's in the Outside and the Outside is shut. I assume nothing any more!

But the Outside isnt shut. Thats the point. The Outside wont be shut for a long while. The last time the No-God walked it was for 11 years. The Outside will only be shut when the population goes below 144,000. And, here's the thing, Earwa is just one continent on thus planet. There is at least two more continents, not to mention what might be beyond the great sea. So, if Kellhus is in the Outside warring against the Gods to stop munching of souls or some other plan, there is plenty of time. And, whats to say that the 144,000 prophecy is even true?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Kellhus-Decapitant, Baby or his own Niché in the Outside
Post by: Blackstone on July 30, 2017, 09:56:04 pm
Look closely at what Bakker said:
Quote
Um, Kellhus is no baby.
Do you see what I see?
Quote
Kellhus is no baby.
Look closer.
Quote
no baby.

Kellhus is the No-Baby.

Ha ha ha ha. Nice!
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Kellhus-Decapitant, Baby or his own Niché in the Outside
Post by: codebread on July 31, 2017, 01:45:42 am
Look closely at what Bakker said:
Quote
Um, Kellhus is no baby.
Do you see what I see?
Quote
Kellhus is no baby.
Look closer.
Quote
no baby.

Kellhus is the No-Baby.

Ha ha ha ha. Nice!

Yeah I felt that comment went very underappreciated  ;)
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Decapitant, Baby or his own Niché
Post by: H on July 31, 2017, 12:17:53 pm
Given that answer and given the glossary entry on the Decapitants I think the most likely explanation is that he is hiding in the head next to Malowebi.

But, to what end then?  He'd be stuck on the belt of a pillar of salt, in the Golden Room.  What would the next step be?  I doubt they would let his body just sit there...

I think if he is somewhere, he must be outside the Ark now.  Could be a case of the double-switch with the other head.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Decapitant, Baby or his own Niché
Post by: Cüréthañ on July 31, 2017, 12:47:50 pm
The Second Apocalypse needs a bit more humour in the third series.

Either we get Tiny Rick Kellhus

-or-

we get Kellhus and Malowebi's heads trying to steer a bumbling, brokedown Bashrag from Golgoteroth to Zeum in an odd couple road trip.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Kellhus-Decapitant, Baby or his own Niché in the Outside
Post by: Tyrin on July 31, 2017, 01:05:31 pm
He needed Ajokli to defeat the Consult

But Ajokli didn't defeat the Consult. In fact, if you assume Kellhus somehow orchestrated or knew about his own salting via chorae, then the Kelljokli scene makes absolutely no sense at all.

I mean, what did Ajokli accomplish? Killing one Dunyain and then allowing Kellhus to be salted? Kellhus could've managed to get himself salted quite trivially without Ajokli's intervention. The Kellhus-betraying-Ajokli interpretation only works if Ajokli actually accomplished something AND THEN was tricked by Kellhus. Since this didn't happen, we're basically left with two options: 1)Kellhus fucked up and got salted, didn't plan for this possibility and is uber-fucked (though Ajokli still can't find him) OR 2)Kellhus fucked up and got salted but has a contingency plan and is hiding, which is why Ajokli can't find him.

Kellhus realized this and used it to his advantage

But what possible "advantage" was to be gained by letting himself get salted in that moment? In the moment when Ajokli is doing his God-power asskicking, which is presumably exactly what he was supposed to be doing in this moment, what possible benefit is to be gained by stopping all of that? Kellhus could've allowed himself to be salted at any time with no help from Ajokli, and since Ajokli didn't even accomplish anything during the possession, it just makes no sense that this was all somehow intentional on Kellhus' part.

I'm not sure Kellhus is completely out of the picture, but I think it's very hard to dispute the fact that he legitimately fucked up. I think we've just been conditioned to see Kellhus never making mistakes so that some among us (I'm pointing to eternal Kellhus apologists like you, MSJ :) ) find it very hard to seriously believe that he just plain fucked up.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Decapitant, Baby or his own Niché
Post by: H on July 31, 2017, 01:15:51 pm
I'm not sure Kellhus is completely out of the picture, but I think it's very hard to dispute the fact that he legitimately fucked up. I think we've just been conditioned to see Kellhus never making mistakes so that some among us (I'm pointing to eternal Kellhus apologists like you, MSJ :) ) find it very hard to seriously believe that he just plain fucked up.

I think it is highly plausible that it is a repeat of the end Moe the Elder meets, in the sense that he failed to account for a perceptual horizon, conceded a blind-spot but dismissed it as a one that wasn't consequential.  And in the end, payed for it.  Curiously, it is possible that in the throws of Ajokli's possession, Kellhus wasn't even in control of his own body, so teleporting away might not have been an option and possibly little Kel could be outside Ajokli's power as well.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Kellhus-Decapitant, Baby or his own Niché in the Outside
Post by: SmilerLoki on July 31, 2017, 01:29:40 pm
I mean, what did Ajokli accomplish? Killing one Dunyain and then allowing Kellhus to be salted? Kellhus could've managed to get himself salted quite trivially without Ajokli's intervention. The Kellhus-betraying-Ajokli interpretation only works if Ajokli actually accomplished something AND THEN was tricked by Kellhus. Since this didn't happen, we're basically left with two options: 1)Kellhus fucked up and got salted, didn't plan for this possibility and is uber-fucked (though Ajokli still can't find him) OR 2)Kellhus fucked up and got salted but has a contingency plan and is hiding, which is why Ajokli can't find him.
I'm completely on board with this line of reasoning.

There is, though, one notable possibility. Kellhus needed Ajokli in the material world as some kind of tool (a spanner in the works, perhaps), but could only accomplish this by being possessed. From that point on he needed to end the possession, which was accomplished in the Golden Room. It's unclear that Kellhus actually wanted to defeat the Dunsult at that moment. Many of his statements seem to imply he actually wanted them to succeed, at least partially. Then it's conceivable he might use their success to his own end. Unlike devices of Tekne, which need to be scrutinized to gain understanding of them (as opposed to the Dunsult, Kellhus had no opportunity to do so), the No-God has metaphysical significance; Kellhus potentially could have surmised its nature and effect and planned for them.

The only thing that seems to contradict this theory is Kellhus's surprise when he sees Kelmomas in the Golden Room. But we can't really trust Kellhus. On the other hand, there were four other Dunyain there, who could have seen through his deception and work out his overarching plan from there.

All of this also doesn't mean Kellhus is on the side of humanity. As a Dunyain, it's very likely his goal is to master his circumstances completely.

I do think Kellhus is not done for, but next time he appears, it would be in a diminished state. By design or by contingency, though, I cannot presently say.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Decapitant, Baby or his own Niché
Post by: MSJ on July 31, 2017, 01:42:32 pm
Im not an eternal Kellhus apologist. I thought he fucked up when i read it. Look back at the first post i made after reading the book. I said as much and that he was simply dead. But, theorues abound and when i ask Bakker if Kellhus made it to the Outside he said, "Well, Ajokli cant find him.". 

Now, i 100% think things did not go the way Kellhus expected them to, or did they. One, i think Kellhus knew what Kel was that is from dialogue i Chapter 1. Why, why would he goad Esme to remove the chain? How do we explain that away? As always, things never add up all the way, either way. One thing i will tell you is i am not a Kellhus apologist. I know he is not infallible, he has done horrid things, but i do not for one second think he would let the world be turned into hell for Ajokli to save his hide. How, is that any better than just letting the No-God walk?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Decapitant, Baby or his own Niché
Post by: MSJ on July 31, 2017, 01:51:28 pm
Oh, he needed Ajokli so he wouldnt be overcome Inverse Fire and be a slave to it and automatically go over to the Dunsult.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Decapitant, Baby or his own Niché
Post by: SmilerLoki on July 31, 2017, 01:55:33 pm
Oh, he needed Ajokli so he wouldnt be overcome Inverse Fire and be a slave to it and automatically go over to the Dunsult.
That could have been accomplished just by striking a deal with Ajokli, for all we know.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Decapitant, Baby or his own Niché
Post by: Tyrin on July 31, 2017, 02:37:40 pm
Oh, he needed Ajokli so he wouldnt be overcome Inverse Fire and be a slave to it and automatically go over to the Dunsult.

Yeah that seems to be the biggest thing that Ajokli (passively) did that Kellhus needed him to do.

That could have been accomplished just by striking a deal with Ajokli, for all we know.

Possibly, though my interpretation of the scene (which could definitely be wrong) was that the reason that Kellhus saw himself "descending as hunger" was because he was seeing himself as Ajokli. Maybe that's not the case, but I think that based on everything we've seen about the Inverse Fire, it's likely that if Kellhus without possession views the Inverse Fire, he becomes a slave to damnation-avoidance since literally no one else has ever viewed it and not done the same, including the other Dunyain. Of course maybe Kellhus is just unique in his immunity to it, but it's hard to rule out Ajokli's presence being the main force behind his inoculation to the IF.

All that being said, I'm still very skeptical that the entire sum of what Kellhus hoped to achieve with his deal with Ajokli was to be immune to the Inverse Fire. While that's certainly a big benefit if that is indeed the reason for his immunity, interrupting Ajokli in the middle of his fight with the Dunsult and getting himself intentionally salted makes no sense to me.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Decapitant, Baby or his own Niché
Post by: H on July 31, 2017, 02:45:26 pm
Possibly, though my interpretation of the scene (which could definitely be wrong) was that the reason that Kellhus saw himself "descending as hunger" was because he was seeing himself as Ajokli. Maybe that's not the case, but I think that based on everything we've seen about the Inverse Fire, it's likely that if Kellhus without possession views the Inverse Fire, he becomes a slave to damnation-avoidance since literally no one else has ever viewed it and not done the same, including the other Dunyain. Of course maybe Kellhus is just unique in his immunity to it, but it's hard to rule out Ajokli's presence being the main force behind his inoculation to the IF.

All that being said, I'm still very skeptical that the entire sum of what Kellhus hoped to achieve with his deal with Ajokli was to be immune to the Inverse Fire. While that's certainly a big benefit if that is indeed the reason for his immunity, interrupting Ajokli in the middle of his fight with the Dunsult and getting himself intentionally salted makes no sense to me.

No, I also think that he knew that he couldn't beat 5 other Dûnyain, especially not on their own turf, as the horde of skin-spy Chorae holders prove.  He needed Ajokli's power there, because even the meta-Gnosis wouldn't have gotten it done.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Decapitant, Baby or his own Niché
Post by: Tyrin on July 31, 2017, 02:55:50 pm
No, I also think that he knew that he couldn't beat 5 other Dûnyain, especially not on their own turf, as the horde of skin-spy Chorae holders prove.  He needed Ajokli's power there, because even the meta-Gnosis wouldn't have gotten it done.

That's what I think as well. I think he needed Ajokli for the ass-kicking because as you say he was overmatched, which is why I think the fact that said ass-kicking was aborted by Kel's appearance means that Kellhus fucked up.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Decapitant, Baby or his own Niché
Post by: Madness on July 31, 2017, 03:26:38 pm
There is a thread (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=2257.0) for "Ajokli and the metaphysical whodunit."

It's just on the second page now because we've somehow become busy enough to have almost two pages of current topics :o!

So great 8). What a great community. They grow up so fast ;).
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Decapitant, Baby or his own Niché
Post by: MSJ on July 31, 2017, 04:48:25 pm
Ok, so he fucked up does seem to make the most sense and was what i thought after my initila read and before hearing theories. That said, Bakkkers response about Ajokli not being able to find him means his soul is somewhere other than hell. It could be in the Outside, very unlikely. Most likely, inside one of the Decapitants.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Decapitant, Baby or his own Niché
Post by: spacemost on July 31, 2017, 07:05:46 pm
Just some stray observations below, not sure what to make of them just yet:

Pg. 409 - 410
"And so life convulsed and life was expelled from the socket, drawn sheeted in blood from the suffocating real, the very muck of amniotic origin, and held exposed to the scrutiny of the cold Void, the hospice of prayer ... So that some essence might alight ... Some breath be drawn and screamed."

I think this alluding to souls entering the body at birth, specifically.

Pg. 415
"Light. Cold. Terror ... Breath. A convulsive wail of arrival ... Lost in the deluge of those departing."

The No-God has not yet resumed; a soul has entered the body of Akka and Mimara's son and it has been born.

Pg. 421 - 425
Unambiguous confirmation of the birth of the son. At this point, Kellhus has been fully subsumed by Ajokli ("[This] Is my place.")

On Page 422 we learn that there is a twin, and we know in hindsight that it will not live.

On Page 423, Malowebi spots Kelmomas threading his way towards Kellhus. On Page 426, we learn that the twin is a stillbirth. Now, I think it's safe to assume the scene in the Ark transpired quickly, with Kellhus being salted and Kelmomas tossed into the Ark, with the resumption beginning quickly enough to prevent the twin from receiving a soul. On Page 425, the Sranc "[crash] into impossible silence", which I believe indicates the rebirth of the No-God, and the stillbirth occurs after that.

Let's say Bakker was being cute with the "Kellhus is no baby" answer, I still don't see how Akka's son can possess Kellhus' soul as the body obtained its own soul prior to Kellhus being completely possessed by Ajokli, and especially if it really was Kellhus ('s soul) who uttered "K-Kel? How di-" (Pg. 443).

Then there's the line "What could not be grasped could not be broken" (Pg. 423) which appears after Ajokli/Kellhus declares "I am the Absolute", juxtaposed with Kellhus being salted after literally being grasped by a skin-spy holding a chorae.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Decapitant, Baby or his own Niché
Post by: themerchant on July 31, 2017, 07:30:03 pm
Kellhus is dead he saved himself.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Decapitant, Baby or his own Niché
Post by: littlegrice on August 01, 2017, 02:06:42 am
No, I also think that he knew that he couldn't beat 5 other Dûnyain, especially not on their own turf, as the horde of skin-spy Chorae holders prove.  He needed Ajokli's power there, because even the meta-Gnosis wouldn't have gotten it done.

That's what I think as well. I think he needed Ajokli for the ass-kicking because as you say he was overmatched, which is why I think the fact that said ass-kicking was aborted by Kel's appearance means that Kellhus fucked up.

Serwa mentions this somewhere, that her father, like all others, is over-matched.  He simply takes the battle DEEPER.  That is an important quote, I think.  We probably won't actually figure out what he did here until the No-God, but whatever it was, it was probably(as always) clever as shit.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Decapitant, Baby or his own Niché
Post by: Wilshire on January 16, 2018, 02:03:39 pm
Many things to comment on. For my sanity I'm going to make several posts.

I'm not sure Kellhus is completely out of the picture, but I think it's very hard to dispute the fact that he legitimately fucked up.
I think it is highly plausible that it is a repeat of the end Moe the Elder meets, in the sense that he failed to account for a perceptual horizon, conceded a blind-spot but dismissed it as a one that wasn't consequential.  And in the end, payed for it.
So very satisfying to read these things :) .
Thematically PON and TAE are very similar in that regard. Moenghus Sr.'s role is pretty much a Mirror of Kellhus. They are even fighting for the same side (ostesibly to save humanity so they both say), spent about 30 years in the Three Seas, got the entire world to fight a war, and in the end were killed by their own son (and didn't see it coming).

Its unfortunate though that so much of PON remains obfuscated, as it would probably serve as a nice cipher for TUC.

The Second Apocalypse needs a bit more humour in the third series.

Either we get Tiny Rick Kellhus
...
Pickel Rick Bashrag Kellhus!

Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Decapitant, Baby or his own Niché
Post by: Wilshire on January 16, 2018, 02:04:01 pm
...two options: 1)Kellhus fucked up and got salted, didn't plan for this possibility and is uber-fucked (though Ajokli still can't find him) OR 2)Kellhus fucked up and got salted but has a contingency plan and is hiding, which is why Ajokli can't find him.
I'm completely on board with this line of reasoning.
Already discuss, but quoted for context.

There is, though, one notable possibility. Kellhus needed Ajokli in the material world as some kind of tool (a spanner in the works, perhaps), but could only accomplish this by being possessed. From that point on he needed to end the possession, which was accomplished in the Golden Room.
I had not considered this. That Kellhus' goal for Ajokli, specifically, was to remove him from the outside, which he planned to do by materializing him in Earwa, which unfortunately required him to be possessed.
That does re-frame his actions a bit. Maybe then his whole goal was to switch places with Ajokli, like the heads, except that he'd now be in the Outside (descending as a hunger) and Ajokli playing Apocalypse with his Four Horseman in Earwa.
I'd still say that his returning to Earwa just in time to get salted was not part of that plan.

It's unclear that Kellhus actually wanted to defeat the Dunsult at that moment. Many of his statements seem to imply he actually wanted them to succeed, at least partially. Then it's conceivable he might use their success to his own end.
I'd have to go back to confirm, but this is also and interesting contingency. That he actually wanted the Consult to win to a degree - though ending up in the sarcophagus was also probably not part of that plan.
It certainly ties in nicely with the above - bring Ajokli into the world, have him stuck in the sarcophagus and effectively seal him into the world, giving Kellhus time to plunder the Outside.

Unlike devices of Tekne, which need to be scrutinized to gain understanding of them (as opposed to the Dunsult, Kellhus had no opportunity to do so), the No-God has metaphysical significance; Kellhus potentially could have surmised its nature and effect and planned for them.
To suggest that Kellhus hadn't pondered the No-God is ridiculous of course, so certainly he had some theories.


The only thing that seems to contradict this theory is Kellhus's surprise when he sees Kelmomas in the Golden Room. But we can't really trust Kellhus. On the other hand, there were four other Dunyain there, who could have seen through his deception and work out his overarching plan from there.
Kind of touched on this already, but in this case it seems probably that Kellhus did not intend to return to the World and get salted.
Though I'll note that Moenghus meets much the same fate - maybe Moenghs Sr. and Kellhus ghosts are sitting around a la Star Wars, continuing to usher the next generation into enlightenment....

All of this also doesn't mean Kellhus is on the side of humanity. As a Dunyain, it's very likely his goal is to master his circumstances completely.
Indeed. Kellhus', or at the very least the dunyain's, true existence is means without ends. To dominate all circumstance.

I do think Kellhus is not done for, but next time he appears, it would be in a diminished state. By design or by contingency, though, I cannot presently say.
At least some of Bakker's response to this seems relatively straightforward - he isn't dead. That Ajokli can't find him, and that he isn't dead, does not necessarily lead anywhere clear yet.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Decapitant, Baby or his own Niché
Post by: Wilshire on January 16, 2018, 02:11:09 pm
...
All that being said, I'm still very skeptical that the entire sum of what Kellhus hoped to achieve with his deal with Ajokli was to be immune to the Inverse Fire. While that's certainly a big benefit if that is indeed the reason for his immunity
...
This is, I think, full of a totally separate set of assumptions than my above post.
Here we pretty much assume that Kellhus goal was to remain in Earwa and defeat the Consult. In that case, assuring he remained immune to the effects of the IF would be paramount. If striking a deal with Ajokli was the only way to accomplish that, it might have been worth the risk. The alternative would be risking himself against the IF, and given the history of the thing, probably not a good idea.

In this case though - Kellhus for Earwa - I do doubt that was his only use for Ajokli.

No, I also think that he knew that he couldn't beat 5 other Dûnyain, especially not on their own turf, as the horde of skin-spy Chorae holders prove.  He needed Ajokli's power there, because even the meta-Gnosis wouldn't have gotten it done.

That's what I think as well. I think he needed Ajokli for the ass-kicking because as you say he was overmatched, which is why I think the fact that said ass-kicking was aborted by Kel's appearance means that Kellhus fucked up.

Yeah, something along these lines. Kellhus is powerful, but not infinitely so. He needed help in the Golden Room, and I suspect Ajokli was supposed to be his ace-in-the-hole. Unfortunately for Kellhus, things didn't go exactly as planned.

Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Decapitant, Baby or his own Niché
Post by: H on January 16, 2018, 02:17:04 pm
I had not considered this. That Kellhus' goal for Ajokli, specifically, was to remove him from the outside, which he planned to do by materializing him in Earwa, which unfortunately required him to be possessed.
That does re-frame his actions a bit. Maybe then his whole goal was to switch places with Ajokli, like the heads, except that he'd now be in the Outside (descending as a hunger) and Ajokli playing Apocalypse with his Four Horseman in Earwa.
I'd still say that his returning to Earwa just in time to get salted was not part of that plan.

Yeah, I'm not sure I can fully buy that, because if Kellhus plan was to switch places, then how does he plan to deal with Ajokli in Eärwa?  As powerful as Kellhus is, he is literally nothing to manifested Ajokli.  So, then perhaps we need to consider that Kellhus planned to exit Eärwa all along, only via something like the Diamos, rather than death.

In this case then, perhaps his idea was to then strangle out Ajokli via the Outside.  As the new "Prince of Hell" he could, possibly, re-frame it to allow Ajokli less power?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Decapitant, Baby or his own Niché
Post by: Wilshire on January 16, 2018, 02:17:19 pm
Just some stray observations below, not sure what to make of them just yet:

Pg. 409 - 410
"And so life convulsed and life was expelled from the socket, drawn sheeted in blood from the suffocating real, the very muck of amniotic origin, and held exposed to the scrutiny of the cold Void, the hospice of prayer ... So that some essence might alight ... Some breath be drawn and screamed."

I think this alluding to souls entering the body at birth, specifically.
Mimara saw her unborn children as uber-holy before birth, so two thoughts:
The unborn, unsouled, child is absolutely holy as it has absolute ignorance prior to having a soul, and is then given a soul upon birth (by Yatwer or whatever).
Or, same idea, but the soul enters just before the live birth.

Pg. 415
"Light. Cold. Terror ... Breath. A convulsive wail of arrival ... Lost in the deluge of those departing."

The No-God has not yet resumed; a soul has entered the body of Akka and Mimara's son and it has been born.

Pg. 421 - 425
Unambiguous confirmation of the birth of the son. At this point, Kellhus has been fully subsumed by Ajokli ("[This] Is my place.")

On Page 422 we learn that there is a twin, and we know in hindsight that it will not live.

On Page 423, Malowebi spots Kelmomas threading his way towards Kellhus. On Page 426, we learn that the twin is a stillbirth. Now, I think it's safe to assume the scene in the Ark transpired quickly, with Kellhus being salted and Kelmomas tossed into the Ark, with the resumption beginning quickly enough to prevent the twin from receiving a soul. On Page 425, the Sranc "[crash] into impossible silence", which I believe indicates the rebirth of the No-God, and the stillbirth occurs after that.
Great catch.

Let's say Bakker was being cute with the "Kellhus is no baby" answer, I still don't see how Akka's son can possess Kellhus' soul as the body obtained its own soul prior to Kellhus being completely possessed by Ajokli, and especially if it really was Kellhus ('s soul) who uttered "K-Kel? How di-" (Pg. 443).

Then there's the line "What could not be grasped could not be broken" (Pg. 423) which appears after Ajokli/Kellhus declares "I am the Absolute", juxtaposed with Kellhus being salted after literally being grasped by a skin-spy holding a chorae.
Since I think the whole theory ridiculous and Bakker's comment uncharacteristically clear, I've no comment for it lol. Thanks for sussing out the timeline though, very helpful.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Decapitant, Baby or his own Niché
Post by: Wilshire on January 16, 2018, 02:20:54 pm
I had not considered this. That Kellhus' goal for Ajokli, specifically, was to remove him from the outside, which he planned to do by materializing him in Earwa, which unfortunately required him to be possessed.
That does re-frame his actions a bit. Maybe then his whole goal was to switch places with Ajokli, like the heads, except that he'd now be in the Outside (descending as a hunger) and Ajokli playing Apocalypse with his Four Horseman in Earwa.
I'd still say that his returning to Earwa just in time to get salted was not part of that plan.

Yeah, I'm not sure I can fully buy that, because if Kellhus plan was to switch places, then how does he plan to deal with Ajokli in Eärwa?  As powerful as Kellhus is, he is literally nothing to manifested Ajokli.  So, then perhaps we need to consider that Kellhus planned to exit Eärwa all along, only via something like the Diamos, rather than death.

In this case then, perhaps his idea was to then strangle out Ajokli via the Outside.  As the new "Prince of Hell" he could, possibly, re-frame it to allow Ajokli less power?

The whole of what we assume to be Kellhus' plan is changed for this to make sense. Rather than trying to save humanity or really do anything with Earwa, we need to assume that his goal was to get to the outside, and perhaps his hope was actually to seal Ajokli into the World, via the sarcophagus or by the eventual success of the Consult sealing the world.

Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Decapitant, Baby or his own Niché
Post by: H on January 16, 2018, 02:39:37 pm
The whole of what we assume to be Kellhus' plan is changed for this to make sense. Rather than trying to save humanity or really do anything with Earwa, we need to assume that his goal was to get to the outside, and perhaps his hope was actually to seal Ajokli into the World, via the sarcophagus or by the eventual success of the Consult sealing the world.

Well, what we have makes little sense anyway.  It seems that Kellhus is trying to save Eärwa by selling it out to Ajokli.  We have to either believe he intended to try to trick the trickster, or that he was genuinely going to just sell the world down the river.

I'm not sure what the point of him doing anything is though if he intended to take the latter path though.  Why not just exit the world and not be bothered?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Decapitant, Baby or his own Niché
Post by: Wilshire on January 16, 2018, 02:47:53 pm
I'm not sure what the point of him doing anything is though if he intended to take the latter path though.  Why not just exit the world and not be bothered?

For the reason you pointed out, he needs Ajokli removed as he wouldn't be able to contend with him anymore than he could defeat 5 dunyain and 100 chorae skinspies by himself. Less so , probably. The whole thing would have been a gambit to remove Ajokli and buy himself time to become strong enough to either defeat him outright or to seal him away permanently. From there, he'd conquer the rest of the Outside somehow and become the God of Gods.

Assailing the Outside isn't something that can be done overnight. Maybe, for those that still want Kellhus to be the good guy, his plan was to eventually 'come back' and save the world.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Decapitant, Baby or his own Niché
Post by: TLEILAXU on January 16, 2018, 03:04:49 pm
The whole of what we assume to be Kellhus' plan is changed for this to make sense. Rather than trying to save humanity or really do anything with Earwa, we need to assume that his goal was to get to the outside, and perhaps his hope was actually to seal Ajokli into the World, via the sarcophagus or by the eventual success of the Consult sealing the world.

Well, what we have makes little sense anyway.  It seems that Kellhus is trying to save Eärwa by selling it out to Ajokli.  We have to either believe he intended to try to trick the trickster, or that he was genuinely going to just sell the world down the river.

I'm not sure what the point of him doing anything is though if he intended to take the latter path though.  Why not just exit the world and not be bothered?
From the reddit ama:
Quote
Kellhus's endgame was to prevent Resumption and save the World. He knew something was amiss, and that the closer he came to Golgotterath the more amiss it became, but he, ultimately, was every bit as blind as we are to the darkness that comes before.
Kellhus simply didn't see Ajokli coming.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Decapitant, Baby or his own Niché
Post by: Wilshire on January 16, 2018, 03:17:40 pm
I get that Tleilaxu - thanks for the quote btw - but to go down that path we need a whole different set of assumptions. We've got 3+ rabbit holes here that all require a specific set of starting conditions to enter. Bakker's comments provide a whole new backdrop that hasn't been discussed - not in this post at least.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Decapitant, Baby or his own Niché
Post by: SmilerLoki on January 16, 2018, 11:17:12 pm
I get that Tleilaxu - thanks for the quote btw - but to go down that path we need a whole different set of assumptions. We've got 3+ rabbit holes here that all require a specific set of starting conditions to enter. Bakker's comments provide a whole new backdrop that hasn't been discussed - not in this post at least.
It's because my post was made before the AMA.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Decapitant, Baby or his own Niché
Post by: Wilshire on January 17, 2018, 01:19:28 pm
I get that Tleilaxu - thanks for the quote btw - but to go down that path we need a whole different set of assumptions. We've got 3+ rabbit holes here that all require a specific set of starting conditions to enter. Bakker's comments provide a whole new backdrop that hasn't been discussed - not in this post at least.
It's because my post was made before the AMA.
Right. Nothing wrong with it, we just haven't gotten there yet (in this post).

A lot of these topics require very explicit assumptions and end up at very different conclusions. There seems to be a lot of talking past each other because of this, since people tend to think that everyone's on the same page. More often than not, I don't think that's the case - which is unfortunate because a lot of good discussion gets missed in the confusion. Just trying to facilitate :)
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Decapitant, Baby or his own Niché
Post by: MSJ on January 17, 2018, 10:06:13 pm
Quote from:  Wilshire
A lot of these topics require very explicit assumptions and end up at very different conclusions. There seems to be a lot of talking past each other because of this, since people tend to think that everyone's on the same page. More often than not, I don't think that's the case - which is unfortunate because a lot of good discussion gets missed in the confusion. Just trying to facilitate :)

Kellhus is dead but not done, is that the comment your referring too? Please elaborate Wilshire. I haven't reread the thread (sorry), I'd just like to know where your confusion/frustration is coming in? That's al.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]Decapitant, Baby or his own Niché
Post by: SmilerLoki on January 17, 2018, 11:59:31 pm
Right. Nothing wrong with it, we just haven't gotten there yet (in this post).

A lot of these topics require very explicit assumptions and end up at very different conclusions. There seems to be a lot of talking past each other because of this, since people tend to think that everyone's on the same page. More often than not, I don't think that's the case - which is unfortunate because a lot of good discussion gets missed in the confusion. Just trying to facilitate :)
No, no, it's completely fine! Just marking my page number, so to speak.