The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The Unholy Consult => Topic started by: Swayal Serpent on July 31, 2017, 05:46:35 pm

Title: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: Swayal Serpent on July 31, 2017, 05:46:35 pm
He's been touched on in other threads, but I thought Shae deserved one of his own to discuss his role (or lack thereof) in TUC. Personally I was quite disappointed with his offscreen demise. He was a very powerful sorcerer and very clever as well, I was really hoping he would have something to do in TUC. The mutilated mention that Shae was the only Consult member that stood against them, and that's why they killed him. Why would Shae refuse when all the other consult joined? That being said, I actually kind of feel bad for him. Hes spent 3,000 years trying to escape damnnation, and just when things are starting to look good for him, some Dunyain come along and squash him like a bug, sending him to the outside that he dreaded so much
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: Bolivar on July 31, 2017, 06:12:04 pm


That being said, I actually kind of feel bad for him. Hes spent 3,000 years trying to escape damnnation, and just when things are starting to look good for him, some Dunyain come along and squash him like a bug, sending him to the outside that he dreaded so much

Ha, I feel the same way. I always assumed with The False Sun and the chapter excerpt that went out so many years ago that Shauriatas was being built up into this mythic figure that would have a huge role to play in the Unholy Consult.

Part of my disappointment stems from the contrast with the Prince of Nothing.  You're told all this time you're going to meet Moenghus  and then at the end you do, it's awesome, with all these lengthy passages. Here, the Consult members we've been obsessing over are only briefly seen until these random guys come out behind the curtain and even then we only get these small 60 second bursts of plot with them.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: Baztek on July 31, 2017, 06:56:35 pm
Definitely the weakest part of the books. Shauri's little larva wheel is some of the most unique horror imagery I've ever read but nope, 7 books of the euphoric dunyain enlightened by their own intelligence wasn't enough, we gotta have them infiltrate the Consult too.

The dunyain wore out their schtick quick, we don't need demonstrations of their power every time someone sneezes in Ishual's direction. Just a shame, man.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: Somnambulist on July 31, 2017, 09:47:37 pm
The mutilated mention that Shae was the only Consult member that stood against them, and that's why they killed him. Why would Shae refuse when all the other consult joined?

Shaeonanra actually answers this question himself in The False Sun.  The reason he wanted Titirga dead was because, if he had come over to the Consult, Shae would not be top dog anymore.  Titirga, being the badass he was, would have usurped Shae in a heartbeat.  Shae's ego wouldn't have that, so down Titirga went.  History repeating itself with the Dunyain.  You know, that old chestnut.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: jurble on July 31, 2017, 10:05:05 pm
Shae is right there, he's the Mutilated.  He resisted and they lost.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: Dunkelheit on July 31, 2017, 10:20:58 pm
Jurbel makes his case a little better in another thread.

Here's a crackpot question:

Are the Mutilated Shauriatus?  They all talk one-by-one and Shae's original Wretches apparently only function because they're 'shorn of passion' and what better way to describe Dunyain?  So, Shauriatus alone resisted and Shauriatus won.  The scene is a pantomime on Shae's part, flattering Kellhus' Dunyain vanity (of course the Dunyain took over the Consult).

Its a cool theory, but I don't buy it.

Also, I actually thought the Dunsolt reveal was awesome, but I never invested much energy in thinking about Shae either so.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: jurble on July 31, 2017, 10:27:03 pm
The only reason I even considered it is because Bakker says everyone apparently missed something about the Consult, especially given how we're all mocking how stupid and decrepit the original members are.  So after pondering it for a few hours, my conclusion is that Shae wasn't stupid or decrepit.   That's the subversion of expectations.  The readers, all of us, saw Aurang, Aurax and Mek and assumed Shae was one of them - dumb and basically useless.  We saw the Dunyain and we assumed they were as capable as Kellhus - as did Kellhus himself. 

Quote
lie, and the Truth spoke with but one soul.

Bakker, R. Scott. The Unholy Consult: Book Four of the Aspect-Emperor series (Aspect Emperor 4) (Kindle Location 7184). Little, Brown Book Group. Kindle Edition.

This is a pun...
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: Somnambulist on July 31, 2017, 10:41:02 pm
Fuck, I never even thought of that.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: boneclinkz on July 31, 2017, 10:44:22 pm
Shae is right there, he's the Mutilated.  He resisted and they lost.

This is good. He preserved himself using "denuded souls" in the Larvals.

Dunyain could accurately be described as such.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: Baztek on July 31, 2017, 10:49:14 pm
What honestly changes though? So shae beat out the dunyain who are now shae... okay so? Feels like we're back to where we started.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: jurble on July 31, 2017, 10:56:15 pm
What honestly changes though? So shae beat out the dunyain who are now shae... okay so? Feels like we're back to where we started.

Wasn't your complaint that the Dunyain are OP and you're sick of them?  The point is that the Dunyain lost.  They're dead, gone-zo.  The Five then Four Mutilated aren't Dunyain.  They're Shaeonanra, the most intelligent and evil guy in the history of Earwa, who now possesses the mental faculties of four living supercomputers. 
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: Baztek on July 31, 2017, 11:07:51 pm
Yeah I guess that's pretty savage but my point is the theory smells like a contrivance after-the-fact, the Dunyain were effectively dead until... we're introduced to the dunyain who we have to connect the dots aren't really dunyain so that we can finally confirm the dunyain are, in fact, dead. It's just idk, man, kinda loopy.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: jurble on July 31, 2017, 11:14:19 pm
Well, even if the Mutilated aren't Shae, the fact that the Dunyain survived and joined the Consult shouldn't be considered a contrivance.  It was a fairly common theory until TGO, in fact.  Even when Akka and Mimara came to the destroyed Ishual, the idea that the Dunyain were enslaved and taken to the Ark was a common hypothesis put forward.  This theory died down when we met the Survivor, since his description didn't indicate the Consult had any goals other than extermination.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: Swayal Serpent on July 31, 2017, 11:46:18 pm
The mutilated mention that Shae was the only Consult member that stood against them, and that's why they killed him. Why would Shae refuse when all the other consult joined?

Shaeonanra actually answers this question himself in The False Sun.  The reason he wanted Titirga dead was because, if he had come over to the Consult, Shae would not be top dog anymore.  Titirga, being the badass he was, would have usurped Shae in a heartbeat.  Shae's ego wouldn't have that, so down Titirga went.  History repeating itself with the Dunyain.  You know, that old chestnut.

Your absolutely right, I didn't think of that. But even so, it seems that if you've been alive for 3000 years, doing anything and everything in your power to avoid death because it is literally the worst thing that could ever happen to you, that you would probably back the big dogs if you had too. In fact it seems that the presence of the Dunyain was a major boone to the Consults machinations, and really would have been benificial to Shae. Ah well, I guess even after 3000 years, Shauriatas still couldn't swallow his pride
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: Swayal Serpent on July 31, 2017, 11:49:39 pm
Shae is right there, he's the Mutilated.  He resisted and they lost.

Woah, that's an awesome theory, never even crossed my mind. But iirc, Kellhus killed one of the mutilated. Obviously we know very little about soul trapping, but wouldn't destroying one of the bodies cause a major problem, if not outright kill the soul inhabiting it? I really have nothing to base that on, but I don't see any reason to have 5 host boddies unless all are necessary. But I love that theory, though it seems very unlikely, I hope its true
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: themerchant on August 01, 2017, 12:09:12 am
The only reason I even considered it is because Bakker says everyone apparently missed something about the Consult, especially given how we're all mocking how stupid and decrepit the original members are.  So after pondering it for a few hours, my conclusion is that Shae wasn't stupid or decrepit.   That's the subversion of expectations.  The readers, all of us, saw Aurang, Aurax and Mek and assumed Shae was one of them - dumb and basically useless.  We saw the Dunyain and we assumed they were as capable as Kellhus - as did Kellhus himself. 

Quote
lie, and the Truth spoke with but one soul.

Bakker, R. Scott. The Unholy Consult: Book Four of the Aspect-Emperor series (Aspect Emperor 4) (Kindle Location 7184). Little, Brown Book Group. Kindle Edition.

This is a pun...

Nice, that might be it.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: Cynical Cat on August 01, 2017, 12:29:06 am
The fear of Dunyain joining the Consult was one of Kelhus's major reasons for killing his father.  We've known about this possibility since the Thousandfold Thought and it's not like Kelhus's, Moenghus's, and Maithenet's accomplishments in the Three Seas aren't a hint that the Dunyain could potentially do this to the Consult.  My question is what about the rest of the Consult.  We see two Inchoroi, one Erratic, and some Dunyain.  What about the rest of the Mangaecca?  Where is the rest of the School that is trying to cheat death?  Only one Nonman despite the number of Erratics in their service and the effectiveness of the Inverse Fire?  The Nonmen could be too damaged, by why no other humans?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: Bolivar on August 01, 2017, 12:38:21 am


The only reason I even considered it is because Bakker says everyone apparently missed something about the Consult, especially given how we're all mocking how stupid and decrepit the original members are.  So after pondering it for a few hours, my conclusion is that Shae wasn't stupid or decrepit.   That's the subversion of expectations.  The readers, all of us, saw Aurang, Aurax and Mek and assumed Shae was one of them - dumb and basically useless.  We saw the Dunyain and we assumed they were as capable as Kellhus - as did Kellhus himself. 

Quote
lie, and the Truth spoke with but one soul.

Bakker, R. Scott. The Unholy Consult: Book Four of the Aspect-Emperor series (Aspect Emperor 4) (Kindle Location 7184). Little, Brown Book Group. Kindle Edition.

This is a pun...

(http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Billy-D_Approves.gif)
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: Inchoboi on August 01, 2017, 12:39:48 am
Spot on Jurble, I also got this feeling during my first read.

Stuff I thought while reading: Why would they expose and endanger all 5 Dunyain? I think it's a fair Dunyainly assumption that upon finding a Consult Dunyain, Khellus is going to at least tolerate some amount of an exchange of words before insta-killing, some bare minimum question asking/information gathering/plan assessing of some degree. How could he not, right?

So if these "five Dunyain" were expecting a conversation to occur here, I don't see any need for more than one Dunyain to chat with Khellus, and exposing the fact that there are more and exposing ALL of them (indeed, it appears Khellus assumes there are only these 5)  is needless/dumb/unDunyainly.

If "they" were anticipating combat I also think letting Khellus size them up isn't a very Dunyainly thing to do even if some number of them (obviously true for at least 1) could sing Sorcery (Khellus didn't see any Marks that we read about, so no reason to assume he could locate them prior to them revealing themselves, even if all are of the Few). If 4 of these Dunyain (who all know the Ark - and this room has many entrances, recall) could've prepared for a much more tactical approach, it seems in-Dunyainly to me just all walk out at once.

Even disregarding the above though, "their" speech patterns immediately confirmed for me that these "Dunyain" were Shae; it was actually their speech patterns that triggered me to more closely examine the situation and brought about my above suspicions.

Now with the death of one of his "bodies", I'm wondering how such a death will affect him (or indeed, if it even does).

Speaking of... haven't we seen Shae with ten "bodies" so far? At least in TUC, that's the number of Larval bodies in the illusion. Got a feeling as well from the word "subsume"!

Even if we assume that Dunyain bodies are in some way better than the wretches that Shae used to inhabit, such that five is "enough" to house him - would five be "enough" for Shae/the Consult overall? And back to my initial skepticism with it being stupid to reveal all five: if you were Super-Shae with Dunyain-level intelligence, would you put all five of your pieces on the table directly in front of Khellus knowing that if he manages to destroy all five, you're going straight to the hell you've been avoiding for millennia? ("You didn't like the pantomime, heeeere I aaaaam!")

Four remaining "Consult Dunyain" sounds good considering Horsemen and the number of Ajokli's horns, but does sounding likely count for much here?  Food for thought!
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: littlegrice on August 01, 2017, 12:55:06 am
Should this theory be correct, I would say that the Dunyain COULD potentially be capable of bearing the strain of an extra soul falling constantly through each of them, much the same way Kellhus can perform multiple inaudible lines to do Meta-Gnostic Cants.  Pretty badass.  And their stunted emotions would make it easier, and if they were in close to the same mental state as the Survivor(so not trully whole, but broken in some fundamental way), then even EASIER.  So sure, Shauriatas DID resist, but convinced them to allow him to join their plans. 

Only thing that I can think of off the top of my head to argue AGAINST this diabolical theory is that at least one of them used magic.  That would probably be REALLY hard(not to mention distracting) with a soul constantly tumbling through you.

Diabolically clever bastards, if this is right.  Which I am slowly beginning to think is the purely English translation of the word Dunyain (diabolically clever, that is).
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: themerchant on August 01, 2017, 01:10:31 am
The fear of Dunyain joining the Consult was one of Kelhus's major reasons for killing his father.  We've known about this possibility since the Thousandfold Thought and it's not like Kelhus's, Moenghus's, and Maithenet's accomplishments in the Three Seas aren't a hint that the Dunyain could potentially do this to the Consult.  My question is what about the rest of the Consult.  We see two Inchoroi, one Erratic, and some Dunyain.  What about the rest of the Mangaecca?  Where is the rest of the School that is trying to cheat death?  Only one Nonman despite the number of Erratics in their service and the effectiveness of the Inverse Fire?  The Nonmen could be too damaged, by why no other humans?

There's a small passage during the assault where some more of the consult appear, i can't remember names one was the lord of poison though, and some other names. The Lord of Poison was a Nonman i believe.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: CŁrťthaŮ on August 01, 2017, 01:47:01 am
I like the Mutilated/Larval idea, but I think Ajokli would have given us a more bold clue in the face of such multi-souled, hot-potato sorcerous fuckery. It seems like the kind of thing he'd notice.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: TLEILAXU on August 01, 2017, 01:53:02 am
I like the idea, since I'm also quite fond of ShaeŲnanra and I was sad to learn he was dead, but ultimately I think that the DŻnyain are themselves, the similarity being a reflection of their shared goals and nature. In a way, they are effectively (a stronger version of) ShaeŲnanra, while the real ShaeŲnanra is burning in Hell.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: generalguy on August 01, 2017, 01:56:19 am
I like the Mutilated/Larval idea, but I think Ajokli would have given us a more bold clue in the face of such multi-souled, hot-potato sorcerous fuckery. It seems like the kind of thing he'd notice.

yeah I'm 100% sure that the mutilated speaking as they do was intended to mimic the Larval contraption but there's just not enough to go on to prove that they are identical, even if it does make a lot of sense.




Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: Cynical Cat on August 01, 2017, 02:09:30 am
Quote

There's a small passage during the assault where some more of the consult appear, i can't remember names one was the lord of poison though, and some other names. The Lord of Poison was a Nonman i believe.

Yeah, some Erratics show up (who may or may not be "Consult") but I don't recall any Mangaecca.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: Baztek on August 01, 2017, 02:12:23 am
Tbh I'm not buying it. Too much of a "gotcha", too much colored string and dots being connected behind the scenes for a pretty lukewarm "twist": that it was Shae all along.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: littlegrice on August 01, 2017, 02:19:55 am
Tbh I'm not buying it. Too much of a "gotcha", too much colored string and dots being connected behind the scenes for a pretty lukewarm "twist": that it was Shae all along.

But not just Shae...Shae AND the Dunyain.  Not saying I am 100% on board with this theory either, but it would be pretty cool.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: Cynical Cat on August 01, 2017, 03:06:31 am
Tbh I'm not buying it. Too much of a "gotcha", too much colored string and dots being connected behind the scenes for a pretty lukewarm "twist": that it was Shae all along.

Bakker's tendency to do big surprise reveals and to present fairly opaque but punchy metaphors leads to a tendency for members of this board to shoot off down strange paths based some of the more unusual passages.  This forum is thick with pet theories.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: Inchoboi on August 01, 2017, 06:01:06 am
Tbh I'm not buying it. Too much of a "gotcha", too much colored string and dots being connected behind the scenes for a pretty lukewarm "twist": that it was Shae all along.

Bakker's tendency to do big surprise reveals and to present fairly opaque but punchy metaphors leads to a tendency for members of this board to shoot off down strange paths based some of the more unusual passages.  This forum is thick with pet theories.

For me that's part of the fun. I wouldn't "know" half as much as I "know" by just reading the books. It took other people's perspectives on many many things for me to reach conclusions which I've been able to accept... and yes of course, some of them turn out to be wrong. But sometimes they turn out to be right, too...

And it's great discussion either way!
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: Dunkelheit on August 01, 2017, 09:22:20 am
Woah, that's an awesome theory, never even crossed my mind. But iirc, Kellhus killed one of the mutilated. Obviously we know very little about soul trapping, but wouldn't destroying one of the bodies cause a major problem, if not outright kill the soul inhabiting it? I really have nothing to base that on, but I don't see any reason to have 5 host boddies unless all are necessary. But I love that theory, though it seems very unlikely, I hope its true

If you want to go real convoluted with it, you can say Shae inhabited the Dunyain Ajokli destroyed, so that Ajokli actually freed the Dunyain and that's why they look at each other assessing whether they others have been freed as well.

I don't buy it though. When one Dunyain starts explaining Ajoklis motivation, who is he talking to? Clearly the other Dunyains, not Kellhus. So does Shae just like talking to himself? I think them being actual Dunyain fits better.

As for their speech pattern, did anyone expect the Dunyains to talk over each other?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: Cynical Cat on August 01, 2017, 11:40:15 am
The speech is that of Dunyain talking to another Dunyain, trying to force him to yield to their circumstances.  It's not at all like Shauriatas as he's been presented in previous conversations.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: Woden on August 01, 2017, 11:54:43 am
Awesome theory but I don't buy it.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: Madness on August 01, 2017, 12:48:32 pm
Bakker's tendency to do big surprise reveals and to present fairly opaque but punchy metaphors leads to a tendency for members of this board to shoot off down strange paths based some of the more unusual passages.  This forum is thick with pet theories.

For me that's part of the fun. I wouldn't "know" half as much as I "know" by just reading the books. It took other people's perspectives on many many things for me to reach conclusions which I've been able to accept... and yes of course, some of them turn out to be wrong. But sometimes they turn out to be right, too...

And it's great discussion either way!

THICK! Like fucking weeds ;).
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: The Sharmat on August 01, 2017, 09:13:35 pm
Why do they have to destroy each other? Maybe Shauriatas is undone as Shauriatas but is now living in symbiosis as a new combined entity with the Dunyain. Maybe it's a mutual arrangement. It would explain how they could do sorcery, in any case. IIRC all the Dunyain with that potential murdered themselves in the prologue of the first book. But if they have a sorcerer's soul being utilized between them, maybe that's not an obstacle.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on August 01, 2017, 10:03:54 pm
Shae is right there, he's the Mutilated.  He resisted and they lost.

While part of me is convinced Shae is dead, I would really like for this to be the case...

Why do they have to destroy each other? Maybe Shauriatas is undone as Shauriatas but is now living in symbiosis as a new combined entity with the Dunyain. Maybe it's a mutual arrangement. It would explain how they could do sorcery, in any case. IIRC all the Dunyain with that potential murdered themselves in the prologue of the first book. But if they have a sorcerer's soul being utilized between them, maybe that's not an obstacle.

Or this, really interesting possibility there. :)
Even if those DŻnyain who were of the Few apparently committed suicide in TDTCB, it's possible there were others we didn't know about. The ones who committed suicide were those that MoŽnghus would know and be able to contact, perhaps they had offspring (around Kellhus' age?) who were still around by the time the Consult attacked Ishušl.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: The Sharmat on August 01, 2017, 10:18:01 pm
A good point.

I have to wonder about that one Dunyain that was unscarred. Where'd he come from?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: littlegrice on August 01, 2017, 10:20:58 pm
Why do they have to destroy each other? Maybe Shauriatas is undone as Shauriatas but is now living in symbiosis as a new combined entity with the Dunyain. Maybe it's a mutual arrangement. It would explain how they could do sorcery, in any case. IIRC all the Dunyain with that potential murdered themselves in the prologue of the first book. But if they have a sorcerer's soul being utilized between them, maybe that's not an obstacle.

I don't think it was the ones with the potential, just the ones he contacted, and as I remember they were all elders.  This makes(for me at least) a new question:  Who can receive dreams?  Can it only be the Few?  We know almost nothing of the Pshuke(misspelled?), and so we don't know how those Cants of Far-calling work.  All we know is the ones contacted killed themselves, and the others honored their sacrifice by not snooping.

And I firmly believe that the Dunyain would be capable of sustaining Shauriatas AND acting Dunyain normal.  The way they all came down their own steps, and stayed there, was kind of telling.  And Shauriatas ASSISTING them with Cants is a cool twist to my initial thoughts...Still not sure if this is what happened, but if it did, I can see it. 
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: Purrball on August 01, 2017, 10:23:50 pm
Tbh I'm not buying it. Too much of a "gotcha", too much colored string and dots being connected behind the scenes for a pretty lukewarm "twist": that it was Shae all along.

Bakker's tendency to do big surprise reveals and to present fairly opaque but punchy metaphors leads to a tendency for members of this board to shoot off down strange paths based some of the more unusual passages.  This forum is thick with pet theories.

every now and then someone seems to be right though. It certainly surprised me when Cnair showed up alive!
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on August 01, 2017, 10:24:27 pm
A good point.

I have to wonder about that one Dunyain that was unscarred. Where'd he come from?

It is strange that he is unscarred, because you'd think that between the attack on Ishušl and the subsequent torture endured at Golgotterath, all of them would be noticeably, well, mutilated. Maybe it's just his face that is unscarred and his scars are somewhere Malowebi wouldn't see them?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: The Sharmat on August 01, 2017, 11:17:10 pm
That would be a nice logical conclusion for the real world but since this is a book I assume we're meant to notice this and be drawn to this one untouched guy among all surviving Dunyain.

Is it possible he came to Golgotterath by an entirely different route? Hm.

How did the Consult first find Ishušl, anyway?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: Cynical Cat on August 02, 2017, 01:37:09 am
That would be a nice logical conclusion for the real world but since this is a book I assume we're meant to notice this and be drawn to this one untouched guy among all surviving Dunyain.

Is it possible he came to Golgotterath by an entirely different route? Hm.

How did the Consult first find Ishušl, anyway?

Searching obsessively since the ending of The Warrior-Prophet.  They had a lot of time and manpower.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: Somnambulist on August 02, 2017, 02:41:58 am
Just to add fuel to the Dunsult/Shauriatas gestalt idea:  Cants of Compulsion could basically rewire the Dunyain to 'agree' to house Shauriatas' soul (or whatever), creating the aforementioned construct.  I think the Larvals were more shorn of will than passion.  While the Dunyain certainly have little to no passion, they definitely have monstrous wills.  Without Compulsions, I don't see how this setup would work.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: Triskele on August 02, 2017, 03:23:37 am
Isn't it possible that Shae lives on within the larvae but just doesn't run the show anymore?  Maybe he was not very powerful anymore beyond his intellect and was de facto leader of the Consult based on intellect and the universal need to revive Mog?  Would the Dunyain even need to do anything to Shae to overcome him other than just establish themselves as the new authorities within the Ark?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: The Sharmat on August 02, 2017, 12:57:07 pm
That would be a nice logical conclusion for the real world but since this is a book I assume we're meant to notice this and be drawn to this one untouched guy among all surviving Dunyain.

Is it possible he came to Golgotterath by an entirely different route? Hm.

How did the Consult first find Ishušl, anyway?

Searching obsessively since the ending of The Warrior-Prophet.  They had a lot of time and manpower.
They don't seem to really have that much manpower from what we see in this book, though. Perhaps that's a result of Dunyain predations, but perhaps not.

I'm suggesting that maybe they found Ishušl because an exiled Dunyain found them and told them where it was.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on August 02, 2017, 01:40:14 pm
That would be a nice logical conclusion for the real world but since this is a book I assume we're meant to notice this and be drawn to this one untouched guy among all surviving Dunyain.

Is it possible he came to Golgotterath by an entirely different route? Hm.

How did the Consult first find Ishušl, anyway?

It's possible, but I don't think we have enough information on him to be able to draw further conclusions. Maybe we'll learn more about him in TNG?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: Baztek on August 02, 2017, 05:53:28 pm
So with how evasive Scott's been it's p much guaranteed Shae is in the Mutilated. I hated the Dunyain fedora tippin' their way into the Consult twist probably the most out of anyone here, so I'm glad I'm wrong, though it's still a dumb "gotcha!" that really sucks the wind out of the sails of the one book in the series titled The Unholy fuckin' Consult
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: The Sharmat on August 02, 2017, 05:56:30 pm
It's still a significant change if they're both the Dunyain and Shauriatas. Also kind of makes Shauriatas a bizarre mirror of Seswatha.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: TLEILAXU on August 02, 2017, 06:48:42 pm
Quote
Do we know the fate of Shauriatis? The Mangaecca, on the other hand, died out a long time ago.
Ok guys I'm starting to believe now. Still not entirely convinced he's cycling through the mutilated, but I definitely think we haven't seen the last of the Archidemu.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: stuslayer on August 02, 2017, 06:49:27 pm
I wonder if the Mutilated are like Shae's horcruxes. He split his soul between them making him harder to kill, and at the same time put them under Compulsion which, if memory serves, means that the subject of the Compulsion cannot tell the difference between his own thoughts and the things he is Compelled to do/say. So the Mutilated would believe that they had taken the Consult over, when actually it's the opposite, and they are there to sustain Shae until NG shuts the world...
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: The Sharmat on August 02, 2017, 07:04:52 pm
What happened to the Maengaecca?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: jurble on August 02, 2017, 07:13:03 pm
Nothing, they just died of old age presumably.  Kalbear makes an interesting observation that the meeting the Golden Room is really just the same set-up as in the False Sun.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: The Sharmat on August 02, 2017, 07:25:04 pm
So they saw no utility in recruiting more human sorcerers? Plus I figured, y'know, they can make immortal skin-spies, so it was entirely possible they could preserve people better now.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: Woden on August 02, 2017, 07:32:09 pm
Maybe the relation Shauriatis and the Mutilated is some kind of symbiosis, rather than parasitism.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: TLEILAXU on August 02, 2017, 08:47:49 pm
Quote
Shae has actually resorted to a couple of different ways to mummify his soul. Some of the Mangaecca were able to hold on for quite some time, the way I've seen it.
What did we miss?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: Asmodeus van Yakshas on August 02, 2017, 10:42:22 pm
So they saw no utility in recruiting more human sorcerers? Plus I figured, y'know, they can make immortal skin-spies, so it was entirely possible they could preserve people better now.

Well, how could they? The North is a barren wasteland and the rest of the world fears and hates the Consult. And it's not common knowledge what their goal was with genocide and the No-God, to any sorcerer of the Three Seas thinking if joining the Consult would be insane plus that everyone except the Mandate thought them dead.

Long before TUC I thought that the Consult we would meet would be much reduced compared to what they were during the apocalypse. The war made the North a barren wasteland, so where would the Consult find recruits and resources? Sranc are no engineers, and even if Shauritas managed to keep his soul from Hell it is not as if he is any position to do any actual work/research. That leaves the Consult with increasingly insane Erratics as their main force.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: The Sharmat on August 03, 2017, 03:34:43 am
They had actual agents in the Three Seas as recently as 300 years ago. Cutting all ties and going completely dark was a chosen stratagem, not something necessary. When you have people like Iyokus willingly dealing with demons for temporal power, doesn't seem like it would be that hard to seduce new talent.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: SmilerLoki on August 03, 2017, 09:03:03 am
So with how evasive Scott's been it's p much guaranteed Shae is in the Mutilated. I hated the Dunyain fedora tippin' their way into the Consult twist probably the most out of anyone here, so I'm glad I'm wrong, though it's still a dumb "gotcha!" that really sucks the wind out of the sails of the one book in the series titled The Unholy fuckin' Consult
There is still a problem with Kellhus closely scrutinizing the Dunsult and seeing them as Dunyain. He pretty much should've seen inconsistencies in their behavior if they were Compelled or under unusual strain (like sharing Shauriatas's soul among them). For example, Kellhus was able to see the illusion of Shauriatas as an illusion without ever meeting him.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: The Sharmat on August 03, 2017, 02:48:23 pm
Kellhus is in entirely new ground, gradually being possessed by Ajokli, and any inconsistencies with these Dunyain could come down to their injuries, both mental and physical.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: SmilerLoki on August 03, 2017, 02:53:54 pm
Kellhus is in entirely new ground, gradually being possessed by Ajokli, and any inconsistencies with these Dunyain could come down to their injuries, both mental and physical.
By that logic we should take as unconfirmed everything said by the Mutilated, which includes things like the origins of the Inchoroi.

Right now it all can be viewed as true only because they are saying it to Kellhus, and he should be able to recognize deception since he's their equal. Take that away, and then only "the crash space", as Bakker calls it, remains. With no information whatsoever. That's my take on it at this point.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: The Sharmat on August 03, 2017, 03:16:23 pm
It is unconfirmed. We never actually see any of this. There's no reason to suspect it's authenticity though. What would be the utility of lying about the origin of the Inchoroi for them?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: SmilerLoki on August 03, 2017, 03:29:44 pm
It is unconfirmed. We never actually see any of this. There's no reason to suspect it's authenticity though. What would be the utility of lying about the origin of the Inchoroi for them?
What would be the utility in obfuscating Shauriatas's survival...?

It's not that I can't think of something (as a matter of fact I can cook up dozens of answers to both your and my questions), it's that I think such severe overcomplification of the events based on arbitrary considering some parts of the narrative true and some false serves no purpose.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: The Sharmat on August 03, 2017, 03:32:19 pm
If Shauriatas is alive, it's either obscuring a resource they possess, or (if he's floating around in the Mutilated) self preservation. Telling Kellhus their deductions about the nature of the Consult, the No-God and the origins of the Inchoroi have utility in attempting to rationally bring him to their side, which they thought the most likely course after showing him damnation. Telling them these things loses them nothing from their view since he is in ground they've conditioned and most of these facts change nothing, apart from giving them an appearance of honest discourse.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: SmilerLoki on August 03, 2017, 03:38:20 pm
If Shauriatas is alive, it's either obscuring a resource they possess, or (if he's floating around in the Mutilated) self preservation. Telling Kellhus their deductions about the nature of the Consult, the No-God and the origins of the Inchoroi have utility in attempting to rationally bring him to their side, which they thought the most likely course after showing him damnation. Telling them these things loses them nothing from their view since he is in ground they've conditioned and most of these facts change nothing, apart from giving them an appearance of honest discourse.
Unless they are lying and there are deeper truths behind all of those things. Which is precisely what I dislike about the Shauriatas/Mutilated theory. It doesn't give us any information, it takes away information we obtained from the narrative.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: The Sharmat on August 03, 2017, 04:07:16 pm
That's fair.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: BabyKellhus on August 03, 2017, 05:17:50 pm
I don't know if this was mentioned or not, but if Shauriatas actually is the mutilated, why would he turn Aurax into a little bitch? Or was that Aurang we saw at the end of Warrior Prophet?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: The Sharmat on August 03, 2017, 05:33:14 pm
Assuming Shauriatas is the mutilated:

1. There is the possibility you imply, that Aurax has actually been like this for a very long time and his psychological condition has nothing to do with the Dunyain. Possible since he doesn't seem to get out much (Unless that was Aurax in the epilogue of Warrior Prophet). Although that raises the question of what the hell happened to him in the first place.

2. Aurax sided with the Dunyain in a failed coup and Shauriatas was very mad. This would be contingent on the variant of the theory of Shauriatas taking over the Dunyain in a hostile fashion.

3. It's some kind of trick to cozen Kellhus and Aurax isn't actually that whipped. Kellhus hasn't had a ton of practice reading Inchoroi.

Those are the only possibilities I can think of.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: TLEILAXU on August 04, 2017, 12:19:20 am
Bakker said something about Shae using a number of soul trapping techniques.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: BabyKellhus on August 04, 2017, 12:26:35 am
Yeah I have to agree, I wish we knew more about Aurax and Aurang's deal. Why would Aurang try to fend off Kellhus while Aurax was cowering behind the mutilated. I guess we can assume that Aurang went against the nutilated, but then that's extra confusing if we think Shaw is the mutilated, considering the two were lovers and they wanted Kellhus to come to the golden room.

I'm sorry, my rants lack punctuation, I get all stream of conscious like when it comes to these books haha
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: littlegrice on August 04, 2017, 12:35:37 am
Assuming Shauriatas is the mutilated:

1. There is the possibility you imply, that Aurax has actually been like this for a very long time and his psychological condition has nothing to do with the Dunyain. Possible since he doesn't seem to get out much (Unless that was Aurax in the epilogue of Warrior Prophet). Although that raises the question of what the hell happened to him in the first place.

2. Aurax sided with the Dunyain in a failed coup and Shauriatas was very mad. This would be contingent on the variant of the theory of Shauriatas taking over the Dunyain in a hostile fashion.

3. It's some kind of trick to cozen Kellhus and Aurax isn't actually that whipped. Kellhus hasn't had a ton of practice reading Inchoroi.

Those are the only possibilities I can think of.

Aurax has just become less with age, I think.  And they weren't exactly shining stars among the Inchoroi to begin with, right?

And, should this Doomsult theory hold true, then I hold that the Dunyain and Shauriatas are symbiotic, but the Dunyain still strive for domination, as always.  I think if Shauriatas is there, he is there in whispers, maybe not even spoken aloud by the Dunyain.  He has become, after so long, just another tool.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: Wilshire on August 04, 2017, 01:27:54 am
Which is precisely what I dislike about the Shauriatas/Mutilated theory. It doesn't give us any information, it takes away information we obtained from the narrative.
Yeah at some point something has to be taken at face value.  The conversations we get between dunyain, imo, are the closest we ever get to the truth about what's happening. 

Maybe shae is around still, but, what, he made a magical hologram that nobody could see? Gosh, maybe he blinded himself and learned the psuke as well :P .
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: littlegrice on August 04, 2017, 02:08:42 am
Yeah at some point something has to be taken at face value.  The conversations we get between dunyain, imo, are the closest we ever get to the truth about what's happening. 

If that conversation was truth, then why would Kellhus talk about turning the world itself into a hell for them to feast on, when Bakker specifically said he intended to save the world?

I hate arguing, but I just feel like I HAVE to ask the contrary question here.

[EDIT Madness: Fixed quote tag.]
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: lazarus on August 04, 2017, 06:27:06 am
I dislike this theory of Shae taking over Mutilated.
But Bakker is coy on Shae.
Still, it needn't be Shae that took over Mutilated.
Bakker said on AMA:
Quote
Think of the gradual possession suffered by Sorweel whilst wearing the Amiolas. Kellhus knew something was up, but the 10-sided die was cast. The great weakness of the Dunyain is the weakness discovered by Moenghus. For all the power of their intellect, their spirit is actually quite weak.
This applies to Mutilated as well!
They were tortured / had to fight Shae / had to reorganize Consult, so also distracted like Kelhus.
OK, what kind of entity could do it?
- Ajokli: doesn't make sense.
- Yatwer: doesn't make sense.
- Other gods? Husyelt? GilgaŲl? None is really foreshadoed in the books.
- Shae as ciphrang: doesn't make sense.
- A strong soul/ciphrang that died at Golgotterath?
- Kelhus himself as ciphrang (atemporal etc)?
But none of it sounds any simple.

Does anybody remember if there were any details how for instance wight-in-the-mountain took over cleric?


Ahh, I planned a nice big 1st post with some kind of sorted thoughts on TUC, but...
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: SmilerLoki on August 04, 2017, 07:50:53 am
If that conversation was truth, then why would Kellhus talk about turning the world itself into a hell for them to feast on, when Bakker specifically said he intended to save the world?
Taking into account what Bakker said about the gradual possession by Ajokli that Kellhus was suffering, it seems to me the passages about turning the world into hell belong to Ajokli (they are at the very end of the Golden Room sequence, when Ajokli is said to take over completely). Were those lines written in bold in the book?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: Hiro on August 04, 2017, 10:54:07 am
If that conversation was truth, then why would Kellhus talk about turning the world itself into a hell for them to feast on, when Bakker specifically said he intended to save the world?
Taking into account what Bakker said about the gradual possession by Ajokli that Kellhus was suffering, it seems to me the passages about turning the world into hell belong to Ajokli (they are at the very end of the Golden Room sequence, when Ajokli is said to take over completely). Were those lines written in bold in the book?

I believe so, yes.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: Madness on August 04, 2017, 01:43:59 pm
Maybe shae is around still, but, what, he made a magical hologram that nobody could see? Gosh, maybe he blinded himself and learned the psuke as well :P .

Lol, I'll just be over here quietly pimping my Shauriatas Upload Hypothesis.

If that conversation was truth, then why would Kellhus talk about turning the world itself into a hell for them to feast on, when Bakker specifically said he intended to save the world?

I hate arguing, but I just feel like I HAVE to ask the contrary question here.

I've maintained for weeks now that all dialogue past the noxious threshold that Aurang opens for Kellhus, that Malowebi warns him against, and up until Kelmomas interrupts Ajokli's God-Mode makes more sense if attributed to Ajokli rather than Kellhus.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: Somnambulist on August 04, 2017, 02:05:40 pm
Maybe shae is around still, but, what, he made a magical hologram that nobody could see? Gosh, maybe he blinded himself and learned the psuke as well :P .

Nah, Shauriatas hijacked Seswatha's mummification ritual, so it's actually him floating around through all the Mandati and Swayali, not Seswatha.  He's been there the whole time!  Fight me!
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: Madness on August 04, 2017, 02:19:52 pm
Maybe shae is around still, but, what, he made a magical hologram that nobody could see? Gosh, maybe he blinded himself and learned the psuke as well :P .

Nah, Shauriatas hijacked Seswatha's mummification ritual, so it's actually him floating around through all the Mandati and Swayali, not Seswatha.  He's been there the whole time!  Fight me!

You have to show up to Zaudunyanicon first ;).
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: H on August 04, 2017, 02:22:59 pm
I don't think Shae is the actual Muitilated.  The Mutilated are the new engines of the Consult.  Shae simply stepped back.

Why did he resist?  Because he realized that Resumption was in better hands with the Mutilated.  He allowed them to overcome him, probably because he could be a better puppet-master from the shadows, rather than an equal in plain sight.  It would be highly suspicious if he just killed himself to achieve that, so he just availed himself to DŻnyain-assisted suicide.

Shae is dead, but Shae is not gone, that's why Bakker is being coy.

Same as Kellhus being dead, but Kellhus is not gone.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: codebread on August 04, 2017, 04:12:55 pm
Shae is dead, but Shae is not gone, that's why Bakker is being coy.

Same as Kellhus being dead, but Kellhus is not gone.

In the Q&A thread I asked a question about how Bakker defines "Death" in this universe, precisely for this reason. I think I asked too late, though.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: The Sharmat on August 04, 2017, 04:27:06 pm
Maybe shae is around still, but, what, he made a magical hologram that nobody could see? Gosh, maybe he blinded himself and learned the psuke as well :P .

Nah, Shauriatas hijacked Seswatha's mummification ritual, so it's actually him floating around through all the Mandati and Swayali, not Seswatha.  He's been there the whole time!  Fight me!
That...actually makes a kind of sense.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: JRControl on August 04, 2017, 04:29:02 pm

Shae is dead, but Shae is not gone, that's why Bakker is being coy.

Same as Kellhus being dead, but Kellhus is not gone.

Really? I got the impression from all the other tidbits that Kellhus is dead dead because Dunyain are spiritually weak and thus especially at risk in the Outside. His best option being dead in the Void between and not being roasted by Yatwer or Momas.

It's very interesting that the lack of a solid identity is the key component of the Carapace. Makes me also think back to when Kelmo was playing with the bug. Ajokli was the bug after all.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: Duskweaver on August 04, 2017, 07:47:20 pm
There is still a problem with Kellhus closely scrutinizing the Dunsult and seeing them as Dunyain. He pretty much should've seen inconsistencies in their behavior if they were Compelled or under unusual strain (like sharing Shauriatas's soul among them). For example, Kellhus was able to see the illusion of Shauriatas as an illusion without ever meeting him.
Seeing through fake-Shauriatas would have been ridiculously easy for either Kellhus or Ajokli, though, even if highly distracted. The real Shauriatas would have been deeply Marked. And we know from later on when Akka first sees fake-Kellhus that the holographic projector cannot replicate the Mark.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: SmilerLoki on August 04, 2017, 07:52:16 pm
The real Shauriatas would have been deeply Marked.
While he should, by all means, have been Marked, it's actually completely unclear how that would look like considering his unorthodox method of keeping himself alive.

Oh, and also, Markless Kellhus descending to his host might have been a conscious decision to invoke religious hysteria. I haven't read that scene as confirming limits of the Dunsult's holographic projection. And if it is limited in such a way, then why try to fool Kellhus with it? Right now we attribute use of sorcery to at least one of the Dunsult. He should've seen that shortcoming.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: Walter on August 04, 2017, 07:57:29 pm
He might be the MOST marked of any being.  Like, he is literally the Cheater Of The Gods. 
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: TLEILAXU on August 04, 2017, 08:08:05 pm
Some of you guys going to Zaudunyanicon have to get Bakker drunk and make him answer this.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on August 04, 2017, 08:28:58 pm
While he should, by all means, have been Marked, it's actually completely unclear how that would look like considering his unorthodox method of keeping himself alive.

I wonder if Shauriatas' Mark would have been somewhat diluted - it's still his soul in there, so it can't be gone, but he's been using multiple bodies for millennia in order to remain alive. It's plausible it would be changed somehow.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: The Sharmat on August 04, 2017, 10:08:33 pm
Obviously Ajokli is Shauriatas.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: Madness on August 04, 2017, 11:03:01 pm
...

Duskweaver :D!

Some of you guys going to Zaudunyanicon have to get Bakker drunk and make him answer this.

Which question now?

I'm actually thinking about making a thread here to collect questions to ask him. We're hoping to video tape and post online his talk and Q&A from the Friday night.

One week from today even! Fuck, I'm been so busy recovering and living SlugLife 2.0 that I haven't even started looking forward to it yet.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: OntaSensitiveCone on August 05, 2017, 12:44:07 am
Really interesting ideas in this thread!

My $0.02:
The thing I kept wondering when seeing the Mutilated was, why are they, all but one, mutilated?

All of these possibilities seem reasonable, but they don't answer the question of why just one of them isn't scarred. Here's one answer that works for all three possibilities: the unscarred one is Shauriatis, or was Shauriatis once.

Examine the scene where Kellhus talks to the DŻnsult. One of the first things he asks is "How long did it take to purge the Thousand Thousand Halls?":

Quote
    "One thousand six-hundred and eleven days," the second figure replied. He alone appeared unscarred and intact, though his attitude was so remote as to be cruel.
    "We could not cope with the Erratics," the third added. This one bore two great scars on his head:
 the first a vaginal pit in lieu of his right eye; and the second more subtle, a slash the length of a hand-scythe, rimming the perimeter of his head from crown to throat, as if someone had abandoned an attempt to remove his face.
    "That is," the Aspect-Emperor said, "until they took you captive."

(Note that the unscarred person rather un-DŻnyainishly has an expression that looks "cruel" to Malowebi.)

That last line seems like an intentional meaning to either Shauriatis or the DŻnyain: either "until [the DŻnyain] took [you, Shauriatis] captive" or "until [the Consult] took [you, the DŻnyain] captive". Throughout this whole conversation, the assumption seems to work: the unscarred one calls to and instructs Aurang; he never talks about Shauriatis in the third person---only the others do. He's the one who says "we have scrutinized the Ark." When the DŻnyain talk about their own history, the unscarred one does not contribute; instead he talks about the progenitors.

I think all of this is consistent with the idea that the DŻnyain merged souls and subsumed Shauriatis in some fashion; when they say "So Shauriatis alone was undone." what they mean is that they broke him down until he no longer had any individual identity.

[EDIT Madness: Fixed quote tag.]
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: littlegrice on August 05, 2017, 12:50:45 am
So...new plan.  We ALL go to Zaudunyanicon, corner the man and make.  Him.  Tell.

I already told old Brandon Sanderson that if he doesn't step it up with his Stormlight Archive writing pace I was gonna have to start leaving poops in his mail box.  Bakker can get the same treatment, just in person.  Seven books is long enough.  Time for some strait answers.

Long shot here, but anybody own a polygraph machine?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: The Sharmat on August 05, 2017, 12:56:37 am
The fact that it's the unscarred one that gives the exact count of days for the fall of Ishušl makes me think even more that he joined the Consult before the others.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: themerchant on August 05, 2017, 03:27:58 am
When the hologram of shae as we know him from Akka's dream descends it speaks with 5 voices, which may or may not mean the 5 dunyain.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: TheCulminatingApe on August 05, 2017, 02:43:14 pm
The thing I kept wondering when seeing the Mutilated was, why are they, all but one, mutilated?

All of these possibilities seem reasonable, but they don't answer the question of why just one of them isn't scarred. Here's one answer that works for all three possibilities: the unscarred one is Shauriatis, or was Shauriatis once.


This could be right.  Note, of all the Dunyain that we see outside Ishual. they all are, or end up physically damaged in some way (Moenghus blind, Koringhus a 'grotesquerie', the kid with the crab hand, the four 'mutilated' Mutilated), with two exceptions - Kellhus and the unscarred one.  Which may imply some plot significance.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: Madness on August 06, 2017, 01:04:13 pm
...

Welcome to the Second Apocalypse, OntaSensitiveCone. I really like the corresponding avatar graph 8).

So...new plan.  We ALL go to Zaudunyanicon, corner the man and make.  Him.  Tell.

I already told old Brandon Sanderson that if he doesn't step it up with his Stormlight Archive writing pace I was gonna have to start leaving poops in his mail box.  Bakker can get the same treatment, just in person.  Seven books is long enough.  Time for some strait answers.

Long shot here, but anybody own a polygraph machine?

Wild guess but I'm fairly sure Bakker can beat a polygraph.

Also, everyone should come to Zaudunyanicon as much as, despite my efforts, it all solidified much later than intended.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: Cynical Cat on August 06, 2017, 07:11:28 pm
Polygraph's are really unreliable.  What they actually detect is stress and nervousness so they're fairly good at spotting lies but they also generate a lot of false positives.  There's good reasons why they are not admissible in court.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: fecklessfool on August 06, 2017, 07:14:26 pm
Did the Mutilated speak in a circular sequence?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: The Sharmat on August 06, 2017, 07:20:32 pm
Yeah they're awful. People with certain personality disorders are also prone to giving false negatives since they respond to lying differently.

Sadly some courts are now admitting neural imaging, which is even less reliable at the moment. Neurologists keep telling them no but apparently legal standards of truth and scientific one are entirely different.

Did the Mutilated speak in a circular sequence?
Yes, but it could just as easily be Dunyain being able to read each other. They're not going to have trouble avoiding talking over each other.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: fecklessfool on August 06, 2017, 08:42:43 pm
Well I was thinking more of a soul passing going through the loop in one direction. Will see if I can check whether one can trace the speaking sequence of the Mutilated, like if it's always no eyelids guy that follows no scars guy or something like that.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: Dez on August 07, 2017, 12:26:07 am
I'm on board with the Shae theory because the Mutilated themselves talk of subsuming rather than conquest. If they killed Shae and dominated the other three like they said, that's only subsuming in the most technical sense. Aurax, Aurang and Mek are all in various states of decrepitude. Not the kind of change of management that you would correct someone from calling a "conquest".

Subsume suggests a give and take. The Mutilated can be the new backbone of the Consult while at the same time having to suffer the presence of Shae as someone they can't get rid of because of same weakness of spirit that left Kellhus susceptible to Ajokli.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: OntaSensitiveCone on August 09, 2017, 03:56:45 pm
I think we can go one step further w.r.t. the idea of "subsuming". When the DŻnsult talk about this, their phrasing is interesting; they do not say "We subsumed the Consult." or "We subsumed the DŻnyain." Instead they say just "We subsumed." I think the idea is that an uncareful reader will see "We [, the DŻnyain,] subsumed [the Consult]." My impression was that it should be read as "We [, the Consult and the DŻnyain,] subsumed [each other]."
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: TwoMinutesToApocalypse on August 10, 2017, 03:42:04 am
I'm a little disappointed that I didn't get to see the real Shauriatis in all his macabre glory.  The hologram was still great and it took me a while to get it.  A lot of you guys definitely have a better grasp on these books that me and I could buy into the theory that Shauriatis and the Dunyain merged.  The use of thee word 'subsumed' means that the Consult, their ideas, and by extension Shauriatis were absorbed into a greater whole.   I'm not going to buy into any theories until I read the actual book. 

I hope that TUC is not the last we get to see of Shauriatis. Whatever form he takes in the future had better be more depraved that what we've seen in the dream and the hologram.  ShaeŲnanra is great and I just want some weirdness.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: Madness on August 11, 2017, 12:03:40 pm
Polygraph's are really unreliable. What they actually detect is stress and nervousness so they're fairly good at spotting lies but they also generate a lot of false positives.  There's good reasons why they are not admissible in court.

Yeah they're awful. People with certain personality disorders are also prone to giving false negatives since they respond to lying differently.

Sadly some courts are now admitting neural imaging, which is even less reliable at the moment. Neurologists keep telling them no but apparently legal standards of truth and scientific one are entirely different.

One of my favorite courses in school was Forensic Psychology and the bolded quotes are both scary true. If I thought I could talk to high-scoring individuals on Hare's PCL-R for any length of time without feeling like a prey, I would have pursued FP.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: Duskweaver on August 11, 2017, 02:53:08 pm
If you really want to destroy your faith in the criminal justice system, read 'The Invisible Gorilla' by Chris Chabris and Dan Simons. Even plain old witness testimony can be horrifically unreliable.

(This isn't directed to Madness, incidentally, since IIRC he's already read it.)
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: Woden on August 11, 2017, 03:16:05 pm
Do you want to utterly destroy your faith in the legal system? just work some years as a lawyer as myself.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: SmilerLoki on August 11, 2017, 07:10:31 pm
Do you want to utterly destroy your faith in the legal system? just work some years as a lawyer as myself.
Sorry, what faith in the legal system...?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: Woden on August 11, 2017, 07:55:42 pm
Do you want to utterly destroy your faith in the legal system? just work some years as a lawyer as myself.
Sorry, what faith in the legal system...?

Well said.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: Nemojbatkastle on August 16, 2017, 10:39:44 pm
Don't know if I'm behind everyone here (obviously just finished Consult), but anyone notice the way the Mutilated say they didn't conquer the Consult but subsumed it? Makes me wonder if they're holding Shae's souls like so often speculated, except they themselves remain in control. I feel like there are a lot on hints on this one.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
Post by: Wilshire on August 17, 2017, 04:30:59 pm
Could be. Clearly Aurang and Aurax were still around, perhaps Shae is still floating around somewhere.