The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The Unholy Consult => Topic started by: littlegrice on August 03, 2017, 02:10:43 am

Title: [TUC Spoilers] Thoughts post-AMA slog/Unholy Consultation thread
Post by: littlegrice on August 03, 2017, 02:10:43 am
The RAFOs
  1.  Significance of the 4121 deaths
  2.  People of Eanna...he RAFO'ed this like 4 times
  3.  Any mention of the potential survivors of the Ordeal
  4.  The Heron Spear

Confirmed we are gonna see Meppa again.  This pleases me.

He dodged the SHIT out of the statement regarding Shauriatis' fate, while in the same breath destroyed the Mangaecca.

Best quote for me "There's the matter of the last surviving full Dunyain Anasurimbor on the loose--that's what's been commanding my attention most these days."

Also his statement that he is now an exploratory writer.  Makes me a wee bit afraid for the No-God.  The whole exploratory writing thing never really sat well with me in the epic fantasy genre.  It's why I never really enjoyed Song of Ice and Fire.  There's no fun in re-reads when the man is just making up shit as he goes.  Read it once, experience it, then on the shelf it goes, to rot forever more.

All in all, a good solid chunk of shit that confirms(to me, anyway) that some of our crackpot theories are at least swinging in the proper direction, even if they remain crackpot.  I hope he manages to get back on and put some more down, so that I can such it dry(phrasing...boom!).

[EDIT Madness: Title.]
Title: Re: Thoughs post-AMA slog
Post by: BabyKellhus on August 03, 2017, 02:22:25 am
More than anything I want to know where Kellhus went, I know Bakker says he's dead, but what about his soul? Did he achieve oblivion/absolute? My head hurts
Title: Re: Thoughs post-AMA slog
Post by: littlegrice on August 03, 2017, 02:25:55 am
More than anything I want to know where Kellhus went, I know Bakker says he's dead, but what about his soul? Did he achieve oblivion/absolute? My head hurts

Nobody in the AMA that I saw actually straight up asked Bakker where Kellhus went or why Ajokli couldn't find him, but my guess is we would be treated to a big fat RAFO.  Still, that would be nice, just as a confirmation one way or the other.
Title: Re: Thoughs post-AMA slog
Post by: TLEILAXU on August 03, 2017, 02:53:21 am
The RAFOs
  1.  Significance of the 4121 deaths
  2.  People of Eanna...he RAFO'ed this like 4 times
  3.  Any mention of the potential survivors of the Ordeal
  4.  The Heron Spear

Confirmed we are gonna see Meppa again.  This pleases me.

He dodged the SHIT out of the statement regarding Shauriatis' fate, while in the same breath destroyed the Mangaecca.

Best quote for me "There's the matter of the last surviving full Dunyain Anasurimbor on the loose--that's what's been commanding my attention most these days."

Also his statement that he is now an exploratory writer.  Makes me a wee bit afraid for the No-God.  The whole exploratory writing thing never really sat well with me in the epic fantasy genre.  It's why I never really enjoyed Song of Ice and Fire.  There's no fun in re-reads when the man is just making up shit as he goes.  Read it once, experience it, then on the shelf it goes, to rot forever more.

All in all, a good solid chunk of shit that confirms(to me, anyway) that some of our crackpot theories are at least swinging in the proper direction, even if they remain crackpot.  I hope he manages to get back on and put some more down, so that I can such it dry(phrasing...boom!).
Keep in mind Frank Herbert made up shit as he went along and it turned out fine, for the most part. The fate of Shauriatis was a pleasant surprise. Keeping my eyes open for the 4121 thing.
Title: Re: Thoughs post-AMA slog
Post by: The Sharmat on August 03, 2017, 03:28:13 am
More than anything I want to know where Kellhus went, I know Bakker says he's dead, but what about his soul? Did he achieve oblivion/absolute? My head hurts

Nobody in the AMA that I saw actually straight up asked Bakker where Kellhus went or why Ajokli couldn't find him, but my guess is we would be treated to a big fat RAFO.  Still, that would be nice, just as a confirmation one way or the other.
The way I see it the just born Ajokli as Cnair couldnt'see him because he'd just died and is in the Outside, where the newborn Ajokli is not because the No-God is around. The greater Ajokli, who is Outside, is from Cnair-Ajokli's perspective, something that has not yet happened. Of course from the Ajokli-in-the-Outside's perspective, he's always existed, long before the moment of his birth.

In a way this may mean that Cnair has actually been manipulating Kellhus for some time. Just, a "future" version of him. Ensuring his own birth then attempting to deliver him to a place where he could conquer him and the last remaining Dunyain, only to be foiled by the No-God, who he's rendered himself blind to.

Kellhus himself is presumably a great hunger in the Outside, as shown in the Inverse Fire. So no damnation at least.
Title: Re: Thoughs post-AMA slog
Post by: Baztek on August 03, 2017, 03:47:03 am
Kellhus does say he was trying to conquer Hell. Was his gambit the whole time killing two birds with one stone? Destroying the Consult and ruling hell? But how is the Eternal even a problem to begin with if Kellhus is a hunger that's supposed to conquer it, as in he must have always-already conquered it right? Were his motivations as base and uninspired as abooga wooga me am a god now? Literally final Fantasy-tier. None of this shit makes any fucking sense.
Title: Re: Thoughs post-AMA slog
Post by: littlegrice on August 03, 2017, 03:53:20 am
So Bakker straight up said Kellhus' goal was to stop the Resumption of the No-God and save the world.

"Think of the gradual possession suffered by Sorweel whilst wearing the Amiolas. Kellhus knew something was up, but the 10-sided die was cast. The great weakness of the Dunyain is the weakness discovered by Moenghus. For all the power of their intellect, their spirit is actually quite weak."

This quote indicates to me that Kellhus DIDN'T want Ajokli there, or couldn't stop him, so he maybe had to make other plans.  It also indicates(again, to me at least) that much of what Kellhus said, maybe since the very beginning of the Golden Room scenes, was all Ajokli, and not Kellhus.
Title: Re: Thoughs post-AMA slog
Post by: littlegrice on August 03, 2017, 03:55:00 am
Oh, and a side-note, would Ajokli looking into the Inverse fire just see, like a closed circuit TV broadcast of his living room?  Makes a bit more sense, then, his answer about what he observed.
Title: Re: Thoughs post-AMA slog
Post by: BabyKellhus on August 03, 2017, 04:04:27 am
Yeah and I was also thinking about the length of time that Ajokli had been potentially possessing Kellhus. I think we can assume that Ajokli was speaking to him while on the circumfix. But if Ajokli was in control why would this moments of humanity displayed by Kellhus in the last book even happen? Why would Ajokli bother pretending to care about these people? I'm so lost haha
Title: Re: Thoughs post-AMA slog
Post by: The Sharmat on August 03, 2017, 04:07:45 am
Reddit by R. Scott Bakker sounds like an interesting book I should read some time. Strange he chose to set it in the same universe as the Second Apocalypse and make it so necessary to that series' plot.
Title: Re: Thoughs post-AMA slog
Post by: Baztek on August 03, 2017, 05:18:54 am
So I guess in addition to wondering what kinda 4D chess maneuver Kellhus is aiming at whenever he opens his mouth in a normal scene we're supposed to guess he didn't want to be possessed by the demon god he made a pact with and that every word out of his mouth past some arbitrary point (shouldn't all of angogorea be a topos) is no longer him and we're supposed to somehow parse that out?

Way too convoluted man.
Title: Re: Thoughs post-AMA slog
Post by: Hiro on August 03, 2017, 07:56:40 am
The RAFOs
  1.  Significance of the 4121 deaths
  2.  People of Eanna...he RAFO'ed this like 4 times
  3.  Any mention of the potential survivors of the Ordeal
  4.  The Heron Spear

Confirmed we are gonna see Meppa again.  This pleases me.

He dodged the SHIT out of the statement regarding Shauriatis' fate, while in the same breath destroyed the Mangaecca.

Best quote for me "There's the matter of the last surviving full Dunyain Anasurimbor on the loose--that's what's been commanding my attention most these days."

Also his statement that he is now an exploratory writer.  Makes me a wee bit afraid for the No-God.  The whole exploratory writing thing never really sat well with me in the epic fantasy genre.  It's why I never really enjoyed Song of Ice and Fire.  There's no fun in re-reads when the man is just making up shit as he goes.  Read it once, experience it, then on the shelf it goes, to rot forever more.

All in all, a good solid chunk of shit that confirms(to me, anyway) that some of our crackpot theories are at least swinging in the proper direction, even if they remain crackpot.  I hope he manages to get back on and put some more down, so that I can such it dry(phrasing...boom!).
Keep in mind Frank Herbert made up shit as he went along and it turned out fine, for the most part. The fate of Shauriatis was a pleasant surprise. Keeping my eyes open for the 4121 thing.

Regarding the RAFO's, they are evocative, however, I bear in mind that RSB has apparently not planned out TNG as he had PON & TAE. So there is an ambiguous tension here.

 ;)
Title: Re: Thoughs post-AMA slog
Post by: Asmodeus van Yakshas on August 03, 2017, 08:05:25 am
After Scott's AMA (where he states quite clearly that Kellhus is dead, to stop Resumption was his goal and that TTT has run its course) I realize that I probably overestimated Kellhus. Up until now I thought all of this must be part if some convoluted Masterplan, that Kellhus who has conquered the Three Seasons and always seems to know what's going on couldn't fail so spectacularly.

What I forgot is that Kellhus has not reached the Absolute and is not a self-moving soul. He has extraordinary abilities but he is still not free from the darkness that comes before. And as he himself admits, the closer he comes to Golgotterath, the greater the darkness.
Title: Re: Thoughs post-AMA slog
Post by: Dunkelheit on August 03, 2017, 08:14:06 am
So Bakker straight up said Kellhus' goal was to stop the Resumption of the No-God and save the world.

"Think of the gradual possession suffered by Sorweel whilst wearing the Amiolas. Kellhus knew something was up, but the 10-sided die was cast. The great weakness of the Dunyain is the weakness discovered by Moenghus. For all the power of their intellect, their spirit is actually quite weak."

This quote indicates to me that Kellhus DIDN'T want Ajokli there, or couldn't stop him, so he maybe had to make other plans.  It also indicates(again, to me at least) that much of what Kellhus said, maybe since the very beginning of the Golden Room scenes, was all Ajokli, and not Kellhus.

In my opinion much of what Kellhus says makes little sense coming from Ajokli. I think the possession is not and either-or thing, more like a sliding scale. As time goes on he slides from Kellhus to Ajokli, until he is full on Ajokli with his head on fire.
Title: Re: Thoughs post-AMA slog
Post by: Moosehunter on August 03, 2017, 09:10:10 am
RAFO's from Reddit:

 1.
"Hi Scott. Big fan since i picked up the first book back in 2004. You're the only author i still purchase in print form.
About your latest book: The Unholy Consult.
I'm going to leave others to ask about the Golden Room, Kellhus/Ajokli and whether or not Shauriatus is soul disperded amongst the Dunyain.
What i really want to know is what is the significance of all the untimely deaths in 4121 and does it tie in with Kellhus training in the Daimos. Anything to do with the Decapitants.
And if you are feeling really generous, could you say if we will ever hear more of Eanna and the tribe that repudiated the Tusk.
Many thanks"

RScottBakker22
Some shrewd questions, SimilarSimian... I fear your spade has struck hard, golden RAFO.

2.
Are the gods actively at odds with one another? It seems like Ajokli and Yatwer at least are on opposite sides in this thing.
Will we see anything from the people of Eanna? I assume every child being stillborn is a global thing, and raises concerns all over. Are there any eastern Nonmen? Nonmen that were never exposed to the Womb Plague?
I feel like Zeum, as the only intact Earwan nation will play a large role in The No-God.
And one small final thing, as I was browsing the Appendices last night, I noticed that Ikurei Conphas' entry has no date of death... I'm guessing that it's just a glitch saved over from TTT appendices and never updated, but you've thrown a few curveballs that I have missed over the years.

RScottBakker22 
Yes, the Gods do strive and compete in their incomprehensible ways. Zeum has no choice but to throw off its arrogance and insularity, and as for Eanna, all I can say is RAFO.
The Conphas entry is just an oversight. Some 'errors' are intentional on my part, however. For one, prescientific encyclopedias are messy, messy things, and for another, working on the EG makes me feel like God... a cruel and wicked one.

3.
Big fan of world building, so i have to ask: What is in Eanna, and will we see it at some point. I know from a world building POV that all authors need an end to their world (this question could also be asked of Tolkien, GRRM, etc.), but the Kayarsus mountain range at the Eastern edge of your map makes me wonder about the relationship between Eanna and Earwa.
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RScottBakker22 
RAFO - the second one!
One thing I can say is that edges of my maps will never be filled in. What characterizes ancient worlds, profoundly, I think, is the degree to which they are encircled in darkness.

4.
Hey Bakker! Apperantly you have replied already to my questions in the forum so I deleted them from here. One new question now,did Serwa, Kayutas or Saccarees survive?

RScottBakker22
That would be a big fat RAFO, my friend! Unless, that is, that dumptruck I've been fearing finally finds me in the near future. In which case, they are duly dead.

5.
A question that might get a BIG RAFO: When did Ajokli and Kellhus reach an agreement? Did it ever happen or was Kellhus "ambushed" by Ajokli in the Golden Room (since it is topos it was possible for Ajokli to enter the world). I have a hard time imagining that this was what The Thousandfold Thought was supposed to lead to. If Kellhus made a bargain with Ajokli already at the circumfixion (as some suggest) it seems to me that TTT died with Moenghus and all the plans and The Great Ordeal was really the actions of an avatar of Ajokli, designed to elevate him above all other gods.

RScottBakker22
Think of the gradual possession suffered by Sorweel whilst wearing the Amiolas. Kellhus knew something was up, but the 10-sided die was cast. The great weakness of the Dunyain is the weakness discovered by Moenghus. For all the power of their intellect, their spirit is actually quite weak.

6.
Thanks for making these books my friends and I are completely obsessed with. Just have a few questions.
1) Not much info is provided regarding he breaking of the gates. When the mean of Eanna came to Earwa. Is there anyone left in Eanna? What else is happening on this world outside of Earwa and Eanna? If there are men, non-men, or other lifeforms elsewhere, can they sense Mog Pharau? Can the creators of the Ark sense him from their faraway home? We know more about the void than we do about anything beyond the Kayarsus!
2) Where is the heron spear!? I've been teased by the heron spear for 7 books. It says in the glossary that it was lost when the Scylvendi sacked Cenei. I was so sure that Cnaiur had it and was going to bring it out at the last second, but then he didn't.
3) Thanks for at least mentioning characters like Xinemus and Inrau in this latest volume. In previous volumes it really felt weird that somehow they had been completely forgotten, even though so many years had passed.

RScottBakker22
Thanks, apreche!
1) RAFO. 2) RAFO. 3) Your welcome. I agree. The texts should have been more interpolated.

End of RAFO's:

My guess is that Eanna is coming to us but we are not going to Eanna. Whether that simply entails us gaining some knowledge of what is happening/happened out there or that tribe physically coming to Earwa. I always thought it somehow pertinent that RSB left a tribe there and made sure to draw our attention to the fact that they could invade again with the destruction of the Shiradi Empire.

4121 may turn out to be Kellhus using the Daimos in some way similar to the Psukhe/Gnosis dream messages. He can move between vessels/souls but only if he is very familiar with the person (i'm really stretching here).

He seems to have made it quite clear (for RSB that is) that Ajokli has been subverting Kellhus gradually for some time. Possibly as far back as the Circumfix.

I think i'm going to start the slowest reread ever.
Title: Re: Thoughts post-AMA slog/Unholy Consultation thread
Post by: Madness on August 03, 2017, 01:46:00 pm
So Bakker straight up said Kellhus' goal was to stop the Resumption of the No-God and save the world.

"Think of the gradual possession suffered by Sorweel whilst wearing the Amiolas. Kellhus knew something was up, but the 10-sided die was cast. The great weakness of the Dunyain is the weakness discovered by Moenghus. For all the power of their intellect, their spirit is actually quite weak."

This quote indicates to me that Kellhus DIDN'T want Ajokli there, or couldn't stop him, so he maybe had to make other plans.  It also indicates(again, to me at least) that much of what Kellhus said, maybe since the very beginning of the Golden Room scenes, was all Ajokli, and not Kellhus.

Oh, and a side-note, would Ajokli looking into the Inverse fire just see, like a closed circuit TV broadcast of his living room?  Makes a bit more sense, then, his answer about what he observed.

Preach 8).

Yeah and I was also thinking about the length of time that Ajokli had been potentially possessing Kellhus. I think we can assume that Ajokli was speaking to him while on the circumfix. But if Ajokli was in control why would this moments of humanity displayed by Kellhus in the last book even happen? Why would Ajokli bother pretending to care about these people? I'm so lost haha

As Dunkelheit says above, Kellhus pretty clearly tells certain principals that the Darkness owns him the closer he gets to Golgotterath. It seems to be a gradient of agency as Kellhus nears the World's deepest Topoi.

Regarding the RAFO's, they are evocative, however, I bear in mind that RSB has apparently not planned out TNG as he had PON & TAE. So there is an ambiguous tension here.

 ;)

Classic Bakker. He's inadvertently coy, which is probably a developed habit over years of interacting with fans.

He most definitely has TNG's narrative mapped, though he's still making choices regarding presentation and style, which could drastically change how we read it.

He's also maintained for years - though it would send me really digging for an online citation (which I'll try to come back and add because it will haunt me otherwise) - that the last last scene and last last line have been written in draft for a long time.

After Scott's AMA (where he states quite clearly that Kellhus is dead, to stop Resumption was his goal and that TTT has run its course) I realize that I probably overestimated Kellhus. Up until now I thought all of this must be part if some convoluted Masterplan, that Kellhus who has conquered the Three Seasons and always seems to know what's going on couldn't fail so spectacularly.

What I forgot is that Kellhus has not reached the Absolute and is not a self-moving soul. He has extraordinary abilities but he is still not free from the darkness that comes before. And as he himself admits, the closer he comes to Golgotterath, the greater the darkness.

I believe in TGO there's a line from one of the infrequent Kellhus POVs that despite his accomplishments he's still just one intellect and two hands.

But yeah... this seems to be one of the primary frustrations pervading the online fandom right now so you're definitely not alone ;).

In my opinion much of what Kellhus says makes little sense coming from Ajokli. I think the possession is not and either-or thing, more like a sliding scale. As time goes on he slides from Kellhus to Ajokli, until he is full on Ajokli with his head on fire.

+1

He seems to have made it quite clear (for RSB that is) that Ajokli has been subverting Kellhus gradually for some time. Possibly as far back as the Circumfix.

I think i'm going to start the slowest reread ever.

If the Vision is Ajokli, It's been whispering into Kellhus' ear for long enough for Kellhus to tell Proyas in TGO that he no longer trusts his own thoughts entirely, that he made a mistake when he listened to the Vision when it told him to kill Moenghus.

Also, to the bold, that might smartest thought I've read yet since TUC's release. We'll be reading a whole new series cued as we are by TUC's Layers of Revelation.

Oh, also, also, I updated the thread title. I really don't think that readers have done justice mining the Unholy Consultation (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=2278.0) thread here yet.
Title: Re: Thoughts post-AMA slog/Unholy Consultation thread
Post by: The Sharmat on August 03, 2017, 02:38:45 pm
After Scott's AMA (where he states quite clearly that Kellhus is dead, to stop Resumption was his goal and that TTT has run its course) I realize that I probably overestimated Kellhus. Up until now I thought all of this must be part if some convoluted Masterplan, that Kellhus who has conquered the Three Seasons and always seems to know what's going on couldn't fail so spectacularly.

What I forgot is that Kellhus has not reached the Absolute and is not a self-moving soul. He has extraordinary abilities but he is still not free from the darkness that comes before. And as he himself admits, the closer he comes to Golgotterath, the greater the darkness.
This is something I think Bakker succeeded at spectacularly. The entire series builds the expectation in the reader (evne the fear, for some of them) that Kellhus is all knowing and invincible, that every single setback is actually a victory in some greater scheme. But at the same time the narrative is subtly littered with hints that he's not remotely infallible, going all the way back to that time he tripped on a rock in TTT. A giant bait in switch to reinforce the whole point of the series. The blind are blind to their blindness. Kellhus never even considered that Kelmomas could see something he could not. And just like his father, he is murdered at the culmination of his planning by a mad son.
Title: Re: Thoughts post-AMA slog/Unholy Consultation thread
Post by: The Sharmat on August 03, 2017, 02:46:09 pm
Also I guess Cnair is actually the series' principle antagonist and has been manipulating Kellhus since the start without even knowing it
Title: Re: Thoughts post-AMA slog/Unholy Consultation thread
Post by: Moosehunter on August 03, 2017, 03:39:12 pm
And just like his father, he is murdered at the culmination of his planning by a mad son.

That is very well said Sharmat. So obvious that i had overlooked it.

[EDIT Madness: Sorry, hovering. Fixed your quote tag.]
Title: Re: Thoughts post-AMA slog/Unholy Consultation thread
Post by: Redeagl on August 03, 2017, 03:58:29 pm
I only have one Thought.
Take that, Kellhus fans!
Title: Re: Thoughts post-AMA slog/Unholy Consultation thread
Post by: The Sharmat on August 03, 2017, 04:14:16 pm
Take that, Kellhus fans!
That's what you get for worshiping Kurcifra.
Title: Re: Thoughts post-AMA slog/Unholy Consultation thread
Post by: Hiro on August 03, 2017, 05:17:19 pm
And just like his father, he is murdered at the culmination of his planning by a mad son.

That is very well said Sharmat. So obvious that i had overlooked it.

[EDIT Madness: Sorry, hovering. Fixed your quote tag.]

Gotta concur with that precise observation! Beautiful pattern recognition.
Title: Re: Thoughts post-AMA slog/Unholy Consultation thread
Post by: Lonnie Slidell on August 03, 2017, 06:25:06 pm
A few thoughts:

At the beginning of The Fellowship of the Ring Frodo and Gandalf go back and forth about the fact that Bilbo did not stab Gollum when he had the opportunity to do so.  Bilbo's act of compassion eventually allows Gollum to redeem Middle Earth after the Ring masters Frodo at Amon Amarth (awesome band, by the way).  I think RSB considers himself one of Papa Tolkien's most rebellious sons, so if an act of compassion redeemed Middle Earth it's not surprising that an act of compassion should damn Earwa.  (And little Kel is a bit of a Gollum.)

I first stumbled upon Three Pound Brain while looking for a publication date for The White-Luck Warrior and decided that the fiction and non-fiction illuminate each other and should be read together.  The last line of his most recent blog post is "The semantic apocalypse isnt simply possible: its happening" so the beginning of the Second Apocalypse with the activation of the No-God and the destruction of the Great Ordeal did not come as a surprise.

In fact, given that RSB, like most fantasy fans, was raised on happy endings (from Frodo to Thomas Covenant to Shea Olmsford to Rand al'Thor to that kid from The Belgariad to Adjunct Tavore) I was proud of him for having the nerve to be as brutal to his readers as he has been to his characters (although Kellhus' betrayal of Nersei Proyas was a real gut punch).

I guess that most readers who have followed the tale through all seven books have accepted Kellhus' omnipotence, or at least his ability to master events, so we assume that he is working another angle.  It's possible he is, but based on the evidence in the text, it's possible he ran out of angles and actually failed.  If what he said to Esmenet, "you are my only darkness, wife... the only place I can hide" was sincere (whatever that means in this context) the disaster at the Ark naturally follows.

And congratulations to those of you who predicted that Little Kelmomas would find himself inside the Sarcophagus.
Title: Re: Thoughts post-AMA slog/Unholy Consultation thread
Post by: Wilshire on August 03, 2017, 06:51:50 pm
Welcome Loonie. Hope you find yourself here more often :)
Title: Re: Thoughts post-AMA slog/Unholy Consultation thread
Post by: Walter on August 03, 2017, 07:17:08 pm
One important tidbit from the AMA/Unholy Consultation is that we should have significantly less divine stuff going down in the next books.  He mentions that the Gods are all but lobotomized now that the No-God is gnawing away at the connection between Inside and Out.
Title: Re: Thoughts post-AMA slog/Unholy Consultation thread
Post by: The Sharmat on August 03, 2017, 07:21:17 pm
Well, Ajokli is actually physically walking around though, maybe? So less and simultaneously much much more godly stuff?
Title: Re: Thoughts post-AMA slog/Unholy Consultation thread
Post by: Madness on August 03, 2017, 07:21:48 pm
"Witless" is not inactive ;).

Bakker swung by the AMA link for another drive by sometime in the past couple hours. Dropped another couple nuggets including the "Shattered God."

EDIT: Ah, shit. And welcome to the Second Apocalypse, Slidell ;).
Title: Re: Thoughts post-AMA slog/Unholy Consultation thread
Post by: Likaro on August 03, 2017, 10:31:39 pm
-I think from RSB's comments we can infer that Shae is not dead. So either he completely took over the Dunyain or he is riding shotgun with them...

-Aurax could have been acting the whole time. I still think it was him at the end of the TWP. Also I still think Aurang is alive. Why make a specific point that Malowebi couldn't see what happened to him? Kell cut his wings off and tossed him down. That doesn't mean he is dead.

-One other thing that I don't think has been mentioned vis a vis the Consult's competency : the actual defensive battle plan for Golgotterath was very well done. In fact, unless Kellhus was going to pull a major coup in the golden room, the Ordeal was in huge trouble with the arrival of the Horde 2.0 AND the fact that the Consult had let their famed walls become destroyed. They were essentially trapped in a bottleneck with mostly destroyed fortifications, no food, and a huge horde of Sranc trying to get in, all while the gate into the Ark was barred and there were other baddies still in play within Golgotterath.

So in that much at least, the Consult was very competent.
Title: Re: Thoughts post-AMA slog/Unholy Consultation thread
Post by: The Sharmat on August 03, 2017, 10:59:33 pm
Also they thought they might need Kellhus to gain entry to the Ark so that makes their strategy even more awkward. They need a breach, but a very specific kind of breach.
Title: Re: Thoughts post-AMA slog/Unholy Consultation thread
Post by: Woden on August 03, 2017, 11:08:34 pm
Bakker said somewhere that Aurang is dead, if I remember correctly.
Title: Re: Thoughts post-AMA slog/Unholy Consultation thread
Post by: Likaro on August 03, 2017, 11:31:57 pm
Yeah he did say that. But Bakker also lies and makes things up as he goes as well  :P
Title: Re: Thoughts post-AMA slog/Unholy Consultation thread
Post by: Woden on August 03, 2017, 11:44:17 pm
Yes, with Bakker I know that I know nothing.
Title: Re: Thoughts post-AMA slog/Unholy Consultation thread
Post by: Baztek on August 03, 2017, 11:48:23 pm
Aurang really shouldn't have gone out like a chump. How you build up a dude for 7 books and take him out in 2 pages? I feel like Bakker was the one guy who was gonna deliver the goods since I've been feeling like tons of works lately have been guilty of this, though I can't name any off the top of my head. But nope.
Title: Re: Thoughts post-AMA slog/Unholy Consultation thread
Post by: sohorat on August 04, 2017, 12:15:35 am
Aurang was but one of many villains that were summarily chumped. 

Sos-Praniura was likewise a disappointment.

He was the Founder of the Mangaecca, and the greatest student of Gin'yursis.

I don't have the book with me at the moment, but I think in TUC he was described as the Lord of Poisons, and one of the few named Quyan Erratics that got name-checked in death.

Wouldn't that have made him Siqu, rather than student?
Title: Re: Thoughts post-AMA slog/Unholy Consultation thread
Post by: littlegrice on August 04, 2017, 12:29:24 am
Aurang really shouldn't have gone out like a chump. How you build up a dude for 7 books and take him out in 2 pages? I feel like Bakker was the one guy who was gonna deliver the goods since I've been feeling like tons of works lately have been guilty of this, though I can't name any off the top of my head. But nope.

With this fight in particular I think it was just to show how much MORE Kellhus was than literally everyone else.  The scene against Meppa was pretty awesome, but Aurang?  Ain't nobody got no time for no AURANG...And I also thought that most of the sorcerer-ie battles that were not in the POV of one of the fighters were kind of lack-luster.  No suspense, just destruction.  Except for the tumbling of the Towers.  That was awesome.
Title: Re: Thoughts post-AMA slog/Unholy Consultation thread
Post by: BabyKellhus on August 04, 2017, 12:30:04 am
On the subject of those nonmen, I'm curious about the red ghoul. I'm sure this is a fault on my reading, but everyone seems to know who he is, and I, for the life of me have no clue what his deal is.  Can a smarter person enlighten me haha?
Title: Re: Thoughts post-AMA slog/Unholy Consultation thread
Post by: Baztek on August 04, 2017, 12:32:55 am
Aurang really shouldn't have gone out like a chump. How you build up a dude for 7 books and take him out in 2 pages? I feel like Bakker was the one guy who was gonna deliver the goods since I've been feeling like tons of works lately have been guilty of this, though I can't name any off the top of my head. But nope.

With this fight in particular I think it was just to show how much MORE Kellhus was than literally everyone else.  The scene against Meppa was pretty awesome, but Aurang?  Ain't nobody got no time for no AURANG...And I also thought that most of the sorcerer-ie battles that were not in the POV of one of the fighters were kind of lack-luster.  No suspense, just destruction.  Except for the tumbling of the Towers.  That was awesome.

We've been getting that for 7 books. It just gets old.
Title: Re: Thoughts post-AMA slog/Unholy Consultation thread
Post by: littlegrice on August 04, 2017, 12:38:56 am
Aurang really shouldn't have gone out like a chump. How you build up a dude for 7 books and take him out in 2 pages? I feel like Bakker was the one guy who was gonna deliver the goods since I've been feeling like tons of works lately have been guilty of this, though I can't name any off the top of my head. But nope.

With this fight in particular I think it was just to show how much MORE Kellhus was than literally everyone else.  The scene against Meppa was pretty awesome, but Aurang?  Ain't nobody got no time for no AURANG...And I also thought that most of the sorcerer-ie battles that were not in the POV of one of the fighters were kind of lack-luster.  No suspense, just destruction.  Except for the tumbling of the Towers.  That was awesome.

We've been getting that for 7 books. It just gets old.

Yeah.  It would have been nice, I think, if the Great Ordeal(the book itself) had gone until they reached Golgotterath, and the entire Unholy Consult would have been the fight.  Way more breathing room for the epic one on ones we had been hoping for, more introspection on why the Consult did this or that.  We all have wishes, do we not?  All I can do now is make the most sense of what we have been given.
Title: Re: Thoughts post-AMA slog/Unholy Consultation thread
Post by: Likaro on August 04, 2017, 01:02:01 am
If Aurang is dead, Bakker really should have given us at least an awesome 1 full page sorcerous battle. Instead he gets one-shotted and pwned by Kellhus.

I get that Kellhus is fucking powerful. But Aurang has been around for ages and fought countless battles - he should put up more fight than Meppa.

Which I guess is par for the course with Bakker. He is a master of big picture battlefield description but has very few good individual duel scenes that I can recall.
Title: Re: Thoughts post-AMA slog/Unholy Consultation thread
Post by: Bolivar on August 04, 2017, 03:04:21 am
This morning Bakker responded to my post and blew up the simulation theory with a simple "No."

RIP threads of white

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Thoughts post-AMA slog/Unholy Consultation thread
Post by: Moosehunter on August 04, 2017, 09:21:34 am
I feel Bakker was much more forthcoming and precise in his answers during his later visit to reddit.
He really consolidated some lines of thinking for me. Looking forward to my rereads now.

The following were 2 points that i was spending a lot of time pondering and a redditor got an answer to both.


"There's a fine line between dreams lying and dreamers misinterpreting. Kellhus sent Malowebi back to punish the Satakhan for violating his treaty with the New Empire." - RSB Reddit AMA Aug 2017

Akka's dreams haven't been manipulated. He is misinterpreting.

The Malowebi/Ciphrang sent to kill the Sathakhan was simply a vehicle to get Malowebi as a POV character. Although RSB has been less than truthful (misdirection not malice) in the past, he tends to say RAFO if something may have further significance.

Kellhus is absolutely dead. It is absolutely Ajokli that has manifested in Cnaiur and he cannot find Kellhus.
Is Ajokli trapped on Earwa in a physical sense now? Has Kellhus somehow supplanted him on the outside?
Can a God be supplanted given that they are a greater shard of a whole?

A part of me thinks that we are not finished with Kellhus even though he is "dead". Another, greater part, thinks RSB is completely genuine here and that Kellhus was simply outclassed from the get go (the Circumfixtion).



Title: Re: Thoughts post-AMA slog/Unholy Consultation thread
Post by: Cynical Cat on August 04, 2017, 11:09:32 am
If Aurang is dead, Bakker really should have given us at least an awesome 1 full page sorcerous battle. Instead he gets one-shotted and pwned by Kellhus.

I get that Kellhus is fucking powerful. But Aurang has been around for ages and fought countless battles - he should put up more fight than Meppa.

Which I guess is par for the course with Bakker. He is a master of big picture battlefield description but has very few good individual duel scenes that I can recall.

I have to disagree.  We have no reason to believe that Aurang is going to stand up to the Metagnosis.  We do however, get pages of him murdering tons of Schoolmen and mortally wounding the Witch Most Holy with red hot laser death.  That's not a trivial accomplishment.
Title: Re: Thoughts post-AMA slog/Unholy Consultation thread
Post by: Woden on August 04, 2017, 11:12:17 am
But the one who blasted Serwa was a Nonman, not Aurang if I remember well.
Title: Re: Thoughts post-AMA slog/Unholy Consultation thread
Post by: Hiro on August 04, 2017, 11:12:42 am
If Aurang is dead, Bakker really should have given us at least an awesome 1 full page sorcerous battle. Instead he gets one-shotted and pwned by Kellhus.

I get that Kellhus is fucking powerful. But Aurang has been around for ages and fought countless battles - he should put up more fight than Meppa.

Which I guess is par for the course with Bakker. He is a master of big picture battlefield description but has very few good individual duel scenes that I can recall.

Well, it's Kellhus plus a growing-in-influence-Ajokli that smacks down Aurang. And remember, once upon a time there were many Inchoroi. Most of them have perished in battle. Aurang has survived for ages, but he has not been on the battlefield all that time. Kellhus plus Ajokli have been fighting battles for a few decades, since the First Holy War.

I do agree that it would have been gratifying to see a more extended battle between the two. I take thematic consolation, the darkness comes before everyone, including the Inchoroi and Kellhus.

Regarding Aurang's laser antics, using a longdistance weapon is nice, but apparently not sufficient. However, was it Aurang that wielded that laser? Wasn't it an Erratic or another?
Title: Re: Thoughts post-AMA slog/Unholy Consultation thread
Post by: Hiro on August 04, 2017, 11:21:38 am

-One other thing that I don't think has been mentioned vis a vis the Consult's competency : the actual defensive battle plan for Golgotterath was very well done. In fact, unless Kellhus was going to pull a major coup in the golden room, the Ordeal was in huge trouble with the arrival of the Horde 2.0 AND the fact that the Consult had let their famed walls become destroyed. They were essentially trapped in a bottleneck with mostly destroyed fortifications, no food, and a huge horde of Sranc trying to get in, all while the gate into the Ark was barred and there were other baddies still in play within Golgotterath.

So in that much at least, the Consult was very competent.

Good point, Likaro. After all the Consult bashing, you are right, their battle tactics turned out to be pretty good.
Title: Re: Thoughts post-AMA slog/Unholy Consultation thread
Post by: Woden on August 04, 2017, 11:28:41 am
The GTO tactics were good too. But in the end it was the random intervention of Sammie that made the difference. If Sammie didn't show up, the Ordealmen could have beaten the horde and even the scylvendi.
Title: Re: Thoughts post-AMA slog/Unholy Consultation thread
Post by: Walter on August 04, 2017, 12:44:05 pm
I mean...they had a thousand Schoolmen.  Absent the No-God's final ploy we have never seen the team with less schoolmen win.
Title: Re: Thoughts post-AMA slog/Unholy Consultation thread
Post by: Madness on August 04, 2017, 02:12:23 pm
"Kellhus sent Malowebi back to punish the Satakhan for violating his treaty with the New Empire." - RSB Reddit AMA Aug 2017

The Malowebi/Ciphrang sent to kill the Sathakhan was simply a vehicle to get Malowebi as a POV character. Although RSB has been less than truthful (misdirection not malice) in the past, he tends to say RAFO if something may have further significance.

He also later added this when asked if we'd find out what happened with Ciphrang-Malowebi/Malowebi's Head:

Quote from: Bakker (https://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/6r3hba/unholy_consultation_r_scott_bakker_bares_the_soul/dl2nqan/)
Malowebi will not rest until Likaro is punished for his treachery!
Title: Re: Thoughts post-AMA slog/Unholy Consultation thread
Post by: Moosehunter on August 04, 2017, 02:34:29 pm
"Kellhus sent Malowebi back to punish the Satakhan for violating his treaty with the New Empire." - RSB Reddit AMA Aug 2017

The Malowebi/Ciphrang sent to kill the Sathakhan was simply a vehicle to get Malowebi as a POV character. Although RSB has been less than truthful (misdirection not malice) in the past, he tends to say RAFO if something may have further significance.

He also later added this when asked if we'd find out what happened with Ciphrang-Malowebi/Malowebi's Head:

Quote from: Bakker (https://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/6r3hba/unholy_consultation_r_scott_bakker_bares_the_soul/dl2nqan/)
Malowebi will not rest until Likaro is punished for his treachery!

Is this a joke i wonder given the many "Curse Likaro"s that we read?
Title: Re: Thoughts post-AMA slog/Unholy Consultation thread
Post by: Madness on August 04, 2017, 02:38:35 pm
I think with Bakker it could go either way.

Likaro is great and Malowebi's a terrible person or we'll experience catharsis on Malowebi's behalf when Ciphrang-Malowebi guts Likaro ;).

EDIT: Though, rooting for Ciphrang-Malowebi is antithetical to humanity's war against the Mutilated. Kellhus really done fucked up there, sending a Ciphrang assassin to fuck up Zeum, one of the last main bastions of resistance.
Title: Re: Thoughts post-AMA slog/Unholy Consultation thread
Post by: themerchant on August 04, 2017, 03:11:12 pm
Nah Malowebi forgave Likaro in the golden room when he saw the horns appear.

Title: Re: Thoughts post-AMA slog/Unholy Consultation thread
Post by: Madness on August 04, 2017, 03:50:23 pm
Nah Malowebi forgave Likaro in the golden room when he saw the horns appear.

Ah, right. Still. Fuck Likaro (the character, not the member ;)).
Title: Re: Thoughts post-AMA slog/Unholy Consultation thread
Post by: The Sharmat on August 04, 2017, 04:31:10 pm
Likaro did nothing wrong.

Also the more Bakker feels the need to answer critical questions on reddit instead of in the books the less I like him and this book.
Title: Re: Thoughts post-AMA slog/Unholy Consultation thread
Post by: Walter on August 04, 2017, 04:40:53 pm
Very debatable.  Likaro seems to have been the primary proponent of Zeum not taking Kellhus seriously, which kept their forces out of the disastrous debacle of the Great Ordeal.  If so, he may actually be a hero in terms of his impact on the plausibility of civilization surviving.

I don't understand why you are reading the AMA if you like it less than the book with mysteries intact.  Seems like you should stop visiting those threads/boards and enjoy the book the way you prefer.
Title: Re: Thoughts post-AMA slog/Unholy Consultation thread
Post by: JRControl on August 04, 2017, 04:48:05 pm
I am always late to these things. I wanted to ask what Shattered the God in the first place. Though I imagine that one will be eternally unknowable.
Title: Re: Thoughts post-AMA slog/Unholy Consultation thread
Post by: SmilerLoki on August 04, 2017, 05:04:16 pm
I am always late to these things. I wanted to ask what Shattered the God in the first place. Though I imagine that one will be eternally unknowable.
We have this answer from here (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=2083.msg31821#msg31821):
Quote from: R. Scott Bakker
no, the Nonmen didn't shatter God, God did.
Title: Re: Thoughts post-AMA slog/Unholy Consultation thread
Post by: Baztek on August 04, 2017, 05:39:07 pm
Likaro did nothing wrong.

Also the more Bakker feels the need to answer critical questions on reddit instead of in the books the less I like him and this book.

lel why
Title: Re: Thoughts post-AMA slog/Unholy Consultation thread
Post by: Walter on August 04, 2017, 05:41:13 pm
There was nothing else around when the God was unshattered TO shatter it, right?  It is a whodunnit with only one suspect.
Title: Re: Thoughts post-AMA slog/Unholy Consultation thread
Post by: Baztek on August 04, 2017, 05:48:48 pm
it's clear as day the God shattering is none other than the creation of reality/subject-object/consciousness, to this day I have no idea how people think it's as banal and uninspired as "nonmen did it"
Title: Re: Thoughts post-AMA slog/Unholy Consultation thread
Post by: Cynical Cat on August 04, 2017, 05:58:41 pm
Regarding Aurang's laser antics, using a longdistance weapon is nice, but apparently not sufficient. However, was it Aurang that wielded that laser? Wasn't it an Erratic or another?

Sure an Erratic was the triggerman, but it was apparent to me the Horde-General was running that part of the show.
Title: Re: Thoughts post-AMA slog/Unholy Consultation thread
Post by: Walter on August 04, 2017, 06:25:23 pm
To the degree that anyone was.

I think Aurang's plan was, basically:

1: I sit on the Upright Horn while the Great Ordeal wrecks lower Golgotterath.  I am safe because no one in the Ordeal can fly up here, and I'm out of reach of cants.
2: The Backup Horde attacks and kills them all while I jerk off.

He only took personal action when Kellhus got the spear and destroyed the Canted Horn.  He had to, at that point.  He is the only one who can get to Kellhus, and he has to do it before he decides to chop down the Upright Horn the same way.

Fighting a stronger wizard who could use teleportation to match his flight was never part of the plan, but he couldn't get away after he jump scared Kellhus into dropping the Spear.
Title: Re: Thoughts post-AMA slog/Unholy Consultation thread
Post by: MSJ on August 04, 2017, 07:18:53 pm
What struck me and i have a hard time of making sense of, is the gradual possession of Kellhus via Ajokli. That he didn't know this would happen. Its hard for me to wrap my head around that, i mean he made a pact. I would love to know what that pact truly entailed. I would so love for Bakker to give us a conical through Kellhus of all the events post-PoN. That would be great.
Title: Re: Thoughts post-AMA slog/Unholy Consultation thread
Post by: WeAreProyas on August 04, 2017, 08:14:52 pm
A few thoughts:

At the beginning of The Fellowship of the Ring Frodo and Gandalf go back and forth about the fact that Bilbo did not stab Gollum when he had the opportunity to do so.  Bilbo's act of compassion eventually allows Gollum to redeem Middle Earth after the Ring masters Frodo at Amon Amarth (awesome band, by the way).  I think RSB considers himself one of Papa Tolkien's most rebellious sons, so if an act of compassion redeemed Middle Earth it's not surprising that an act of compassion should damn Earwa.  (And little Kel is a bit of a Gollum.)


This connection is exactly what I first thought about when reading the end of TUC. That moment of confusion by Kellhus/Ajokli when Kel gets stuffed into the sarcophagus is just the kind of WTF moment Sauron must have felt when Gollum claimed the ring.

Gollum fixation on the ring is also a good match for Kel's obsession for his mother.

I am still in that neverland of confusion that Bakker wants us to reside in on the question of good/bad Kellhus, or just good/bad in general. So I am not extending the analogy to Kellhus equals Sauron.

PS. My first post after a lifetime of being a Skin-Spy lurker.
Title: Re: Thoughts post-AMA slog/Unholy Consultation thread
Post by: The Sharmat on August 04, 2017, 10:11:29 pm
Very debatable.  Likaro seems to have been the primary proponent of Zeum not taking Kellhus seriously, which kept their forces out of the disastrous debacle of the Great Ordeal.  If so, he may actually be a hero in terms of his impact on the plausibility of civilization surviving.

I don't understand why you are reading the AMA if you like it less than the book with mysteries intact.  Seems like you should stop visiting those threads/boards and enjoy the book the way you prefer.
I'm not reading those threads or going to reddit but if I want to discuss the series I can't escape it since other people are. I think it also speaks poorly of his plotting.
Title: Re: Thoughts post-AMA slog/Unholy Consultation thread
Post by: Madness on August 04, 2017, 11:16:46 pm
Likaro did nothing wrong.

Well, he and Malowebi seem to be involved in some diplomatic power struggle for First Negotiant in Zeum. Likaro seems to have manufactured the circumstances which see Malowebi sent as Ambassador to Fanayal. Likaro seems to poison and guile for prestige where Malowebi seems to be our Zeumi Achamian.

As I said, it could go either way with Bakker. Likaro's either going to the ass Malowebi sees him as or he's going to be a great guy ;).

I am always late to these things. I wanted to ask what Shattered the God in the first place. Though I imagine that one will be eternally unknowable.

There was nothing else around when the God was unshattered TO shatter it, right?  It is a whodunnit with only one suspect.

It definitely seems to evoke and validate the piece of Fanim perspective we have regarding the Solitary God in the opening epigraph of TGO.

it's clear as day the God shattering is none other than the creation of reality/subject-object/consciousness, to this day I have no idea how people think it's as banal and uninspired as "nonmen did it"

Lol, there are a number (http://www.billstifler.org/HUM2130/files/2D-001-01-ctypes.htm) of types of creation myths. That isn't even an exhaustive list.

What struck me and i have a hard time of making sense of, is the gradual possession of Kellhus via Ajokli. That he didn't know this would happen. Its hard for me to wrap my head around that, i mean he made a pact. I would love to know what that pact truly entailed. I would so love for Bakker to give us a conical through Kellhus of all the events post-PoN. That would be great.

Unless you attribute that pact talk to Ajokli instead of Kellhus.

PS. My first post after a lifetime of being a Skin-Spy lurker.

Welcome to the Second Apocalypse, WAP. What an inspired username 8).
Title: Re: Thoughts post-AMA slog/Unholy Consultation thread
Post by: Baztek on August 04, 2017, 11:26:24 pm
The credence Bakker has given to the Fanim (the Psukhe bearing no mark, Fane calling the demonic nature of the Hundred, Meppa being all-around one of the wokest in-universe characters in the series), especially with putting that epigraph in the beginning of TGO, and with how philosophically milquetoast the alternative is ("it was the nonmen in the time before time with the candlestick"), it's pretty clear the God shattered "itself".

The only reason I don't buy the Fanim perspective on things 100% is that Mimara is seeing through to something that is somehow both the void of the Solitary God and a transcendent being of light
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Thoughts post-AMA slog/Unholy Consultation thread
Post by: Madness on August 06, 2017, 12:37:43 pm
The only reason I don't buy the Fanim perspective on things 100% is that Mimara is seeing through to something that is somehow both the void of the Solitary God and a transcendent being of light

Well, I'll leave it to the Crthas of the forum to figure out the distinctions but as a Fanim-proponent, I don't discount that Mimara's Judging Eye, Inri Sejenus' abstract God-of-Gods, and the Fanim Solitary God might in fact be the same thing.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Thoughts post-AMA slog/Unholy Consultation thread
Post by: jurble on August 07, 2017, 12:26:45 am
Yeah, it's not impossible God is both immanent and transcendent, especially when you toss in a bit of omnipotence.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Thoughts post-AMA slog/Unholy Consultation thread
Post by: Madness on August 07, 2017, 01:58:54 am
Indeed :).