The Second Apocalypse
Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The Unholy Consult => Topic started by: Yellow on August 06, 2017, 04:03:08 pm
-
Guys, first up, I'm on holiday and on my phone so it's difficult to read the TWO PAGES of new content :P So, if this is being discussed already then please somebody link me to it!
OK, from my read of the AMA, there were two direct questions regarding whether Ajokli was sending the visions. The first asked if it was Ajokli, and Bakker replied with "that would certainly seem to be a safe supposition". The second time asked if Ajokli had been talking to Kellhus since the Circumfix and the reply was "that which comes after determines that which comes before". Paraphrasing both times, sorry.
I note he does not say "yes" in either case.
I don't believe it's Ajokli at all. I'm not letting go of the Outside Kellhus theory unless it's prized from my child dead hands. Thoughts?
-
Guys, first up, I'm on holiday and on my phone so it's difficult to read the TWO PAGES of new content :P So, if this is being discussed already then please somebody link me to it!
OK, from my read of the AMA, there were two direct questions regarding whether Ajokli was sending the visions. The first asked if it was Ajokli, and Bakker replied with "that would certainly seem to be a safe supposition". The second time asked if Ajokli had been talking to Kellhus since the Circumfix and the reply was "that which comes after determines that which comes before". Paraphrasing both times, sorry.
I note he does not say "yes" in either case.
I don't believe it's Ajokli at all. I'm not letting go of the Outside Kellhus theory unless it's prized from my child dead hands. Thoughts?
Interesting. I read both those statements as confirmation that it *is* Ajokli.
- safe supposition ---> I take that as a gentle yes.
- that which comes after determines that which comes before ---> What comes after is Ajokli possessing Kellhus, what comes before is Ajokli sending Kellhus visions.
-
I believe that's definitely what he *wanted* us to take from that.
-
If we assume Bakker is demonstrating excellent use of "political truth telling," who might be the author of the visions?
Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
-
Outside Kellhus!
I always felt the individual in the visions was calm, collected, rational. Not traits I associate with Ajokli, from what we've seen of him so far.
-
I felt RSB was giving us a yes on it being Ajokli. In much the way that Kelmommas was always the No God because he eventually became the NG, I believe Kellhus was always possessed by Ajokli because he was eventually possessed by Ajokli.
Still.......i never trust RSB:-)
Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk
-
Outside Kellhus!
I always felt the individual in the visions was calm, collected, rational. Not traits I associate with Ajokli, from what we've seen of him so far.
Seemingly calm, at times. But if Ajokli is Cnaiür I think the "legs crossed like a monk, slouched forward like an ape" (or however it went) descriptor is pretty apt imagery to sum up Cnaiür's conflict.
-
Seemingly calm, at times. But if Ajokli is Cnaiür I think the "legs crossed like a monk, slouched forward like an ape" (or however it went) descriptor is pretty apt imagery to sum up Cnaiür's conflict.
I must have read that final scene different than some of you. I never took it as Cnaüir becoming Ajokli. I took it as Cnaüir being inhabited by Ajokli, then dying from the Whirlwind. So, I don't think Cnaüir is Ajokli not at all.
And, Bakker's answer to who Kellhus sees in his visions, is misdirection 100%. Thats Kellhus and Im not moving from that stance.
-
Guys, first up, I'm on holiday and on my phone so it's difficult to read the TWO PAGES of new content :P
It's great, isn't it 8)?
Interesting. I read both those statements as confirmation that it *is* Ajokli.
- safe supposition ---> I take that as a gentle yes.
- that which comes after determines that which comes before ---> What comes after is Ajokli possessing Kellhus, what comes before is Ajokli sending Kellhus visions.
+1
-
Seemingly calm, at times. But if Ajokli is Cnaiür I think the "legs crossed like a monk, slouched forward like an ape" (or however it went) descriptor is pretty apt imagery to sum up Cnaiür's conflict.
I must have read that final scene different than some of you. I never took it as Cnaüir becoming Ajokli. I took it as Cnaüir being inhabited by Ajokli, then dying from the Whirlwind. So, I don't think Cnaüir is Ajokli not at all.
Wait, I think we're confused, or maybe I am at least. People think Cnaiur IS Ajokli? That doesn't make any sense. Cnaiur is just crazy. Ajokli is an all seeing god that changes the laws of physics. Ajokli inhabits Cnaiur and walks into the whirlwind. For that brief moment, they are the same, but otherwise separate entities.
And, Bakker's answer to who Kellhus sees in his visions, is misdirection 100%. Thats Kellhus and Im not moving from that stance.
Though the secret of battle is unconquerable belief, it seldom leads to enlightenment :) . You'll come around one of these days, we just need to find the right lever with which to move the world.
-
Ajokli is an all seeing god that changes the laws of physics. Ajokli inhabits Cnaiur and walks into the whirlwind. For that brief moment, they are the same, but otherwise separate entities.
I might contest "all seeing" but otherwise +1. As per Kellhus as well, methinks, though profgrape have debated the particulars of that to no conceded end.
-
"all seeing" then ;)
-
And then, Mr. Smartypants ;)?
-
Wait, I think we're confused, or maybe I am at least. People think Cnaiur IS Ajokli? That doesn't make any sense. Cnaiur is just crazy. Ajokli is an all seeing god that changes the laws of physics. Ajokli inhabits Cnaiur and walks into the whirlwind. For that brief moment, they are the same, but otherwise separate entities.
Not necessarily. If Kelmomas is TNG and has always been, why can't Cnaiur be Ajokli (and have always been)? Ajokli is the Prince of Hate, Cnaiur is 'already a Prince in Hell,' and what human hates more than Cnaiur? Ajokli is described as sometimes a companion to the Gods, and sometimes an adversary. Cnaiur has also been companion and adversary to the nations of men. Trickster? Maybe... he's clever and crazy as fuck, leading to erratic behavior. Dunno, to me, it would make a kind of sense if Cnaiur turned out to be Ajokli, or at least could have assumed that mantle. Kellhus' argument that their actions re-write the Outside could lend some weight to the Cnaiur is Ajokli theory. (hearty shrugs)
-
I think also what gets people to think Ajokli is Cnaüir is Bakkers comment that what comes after determines what comes before. Now, we know that this is true in Earwa, but is it true of all instances?
Lets see. We have Seswatha and the 1st Apocalypse preceding the Mandate. Nonmen proceeding Men and many other instances in sure I could come up with. My point though,is that what comes before does, in fact, determine what comes after in many cases in the books, in world. So, I think, that both are true. Just that what comes after is in fact true also and allows Bakker to bend the rules. Which is fine, we've speculated that this was so many times.
Let's take Kellhus for example, if what comes after is only true, then he was always possessed by Ajokli...and I don't think the text holds that up. I think somewhere along the lines of him working the Diamos is when it started, I don't agree that it was on the Circumfix.
If you look at Bakkers answers on the AMA and Q&A he is a variable Ajokli himself. When asked who Kellhus sees in his vision was Ajokli, his answer was, "Thats a good proposition."(paraphrasing). He will lead you down a path of your own liking, just like Cnaüir.
-
So.... does Ajokli finally see the No-Godthrough Cnauirs eyes? This is a big deal going into the third series, right?
I am still confused on how little Celmomas could have always been the No God, because if he made a deal with Ajokli early on then the Gods surely can see him. I assumed Celmomas just fit the lineage well enough and that the Consult wanted to wait and see what Kellhus would do before unleashing the No-God, (since any of the Dunyain could have fit that place.)
-
(since any of the Dunyain could have fit that place.)
Not just any of the Dunyain. only an Anasurinbor can fuel the NoGod.
-
are not all dunyain Anasurimbor? I thought they just took the namesake of the "boy who lived" prince who was left at IshuaL?
-
are not all dunyain Anasurimbor? I thought they just took the namesake of the "boy who lived" prince who was left at IshuaL?
The boy opened the gates of Ishual to the original Dûnyain refugees. They probably taught him afterwards or his descendants ( AKA Kellhus, Moe, Koringhus etc.... ) .
-
Koringhus muses on the Anasûrimbor as the most promising of the 12 'germs'. The dunyain clearly are practicing an Earwan form of eugenics, and seemingly focus on the paternal line of descent.
The most important thing here, I think, is that the Anasûrimbor line has the rare distinction of both Halaroi and Ishroi ancestors, thus intersecting the two ensouled races on Earwa.
-
Koringhus muses on the Anasûrimbor as the most promising of the 12 'germs'. The dunyain clearly are practicing an Earwan form of eugenics, and seemingly focus on the paternal line of descent.
The most important thing here, I think, is that the Anasûrimbor line has the rare distinction of both Halaroi and Ishroi ancestors, thus intersecting the two ensouled races on Earwa.
A big problem has arisen for this theory. The Rape of Omindalea might not be canon at all or not entirely. Is it anywhere in the actually included in the published books Glossaries, and if it is, then to what extent? Because we now have Bakker telling us that Men-Nonmen hybrids are sterile. So the fact that a house-slave conceived by Sanna-Jephera, Omindalea's son, might not be, well, factual.
Also Bakker has stated (https://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/6r3hba/unholy_consultation_r_scott_bakker_bares_the_soul/dl248c3/) that not even all Anasurimbor would make the No-God function. He was emphasizing the peculiarity of Kelmomas's mind/identity as the quality that allowed him to complete the No-God's circuit. So the importance of the lineage is now very much in question for me.
-
Huh, well maybe he changed his mind since writing and disseminating that timeline with the rape of Omandelia. Maybe he's just being contradictory to evoke mystery.
Kelmomas is certainly and odd kid, but we have no similar peculiarities hinted about about Nau-Cayuti or Kellhus. Of course, the Consult tortured the heck out of Nau Cayuti for five long years before they decided to chuck him in the carapace, they never thought there was anything that special about him. Yet the Mutilated talk like it's fairly obvious that Nau Cayuti was the appropriate Subject and seem to have based their strategy on using Kellhus as the proper replacement. Were the Gods blind to Nau Cayuti? Maybe. Are they blind to Kellhus? Nah.
I guess I can see maybe three similarities between these three Subjects that we could say have been sufficiently foreshadowed.
1) They are Anasurimbor and Ancestor Lists are Very Important.
2) They are all genetic prodigies and/or mad.
3) They represent the hope of their peoples. (Yeah this one is pretty weak)
The other option is to accept that the Mutilated based their strategy on the Celmomman prophecy showing Kellhus as the Harbinger. Which seems pretty dumb tbh, seeing as Kelmomas isn't in it.
Aside: Isn't it also weird that it's the C and K's in the glossary that get switched up. Then we have (C)elmomas and (K)elmomas. 2spooky Bakker!
-
The other option is to accept that the Mutilated based their strategy on the Celmomman prophecy showing Kellhus as the Harbinger. Which seems pretty dumb tbh, seeing as Kelmomas isn't in it.
I feel there is something relevant with prophecies here.
-
The Rape of Omindalea might not be canon at all or not entirely. Is it anywhere in the actually included in the published books Glossaries, and if it is, then to what extent?
It's mentioned in both glossaries as the name of the event that brought an end to the Tutelage, but with no details.
-
The Rape of Omindalea might not be canon at all or not entirely. Is it anywhere in the actually included in the published books Glossaries, and if it is, then to what extent?
It's mentioned in both glossaries as the name of the event that brought an end to the Tutelage, but with no details.
Thank you! That's what I remembered myself, but I wasn't completely certain.
-
The other option is to accept that the Mutilated based their strategy on the Celmomman prophecy showing Kellhus as the Harbinger. Which seems pretty dumb tbh, seeing as Kelmomas isn't in it.
Well, Kelmomas would be in it, no? Isn't the entire Celmoman prophecy just that an Anasurimbor would return at the end of the world? And Kelmomas is an Anasurimbor. I think they legit believed Kellhus was the No-God, but were willing to accept the idea that Kelmomas might be as a sort of backup. And given his 'I told you they can't see me' line, that'd be a good piece of information to go off of.
I think it kind of went that the Mutilated assumed it was Kellhus based off the prophecy and bloodline. But then when they managed to capture Kellhus and heard his claims about being blind to the gods, figured they might as well try to see if Kellhus would work, but would use Kelmomas all the same if not.
I had the feeling for a long time that Nau Cayuti was meant to be the subject that would be the No-God, but I always thought something unique about his torment related it (so I had a crack-pot theory Kellhus was working with the Consult to torment all the Ordealsmen to recreate that to make a No-God). Anyway! Really have to wonder what about Nau Cayuti that would make him so special. I might need to reread his dream scenes.
-
I had the feeling for a long time that Nau Cayuti was meant to be the subject that would be the No-God, but I always thought something unique about his torment related it (so I had a crack-pot theory Kellhus was working with the Consult to torment all the Ordealsmen to recreate that to make a No-God). Anyway! Really have to wonder what about Nau Cayuti that would make him so special. I might need to reread his dream scenes.
Bakker acknowledged that my thinking that the suitability to operate the Sarcophagus (i.e. become the No-God) is a reflection of closely mirroring the soul of an original insertant.
So, we should ask, who would that have been? My guess is an actual Progenitor. Their sin, recall is being too close to Absolute. So, therefor, only a soul sufficiently close to the Absolute is a candidate.
-
I had the feeling for a long time that Nau Cayuti was meant to be the subject that would be the No-God, but I always thought something unique about his torment related it (so I had a crack-pot theory Kellhus was working with the Consult to torment all the Ordealsmen to recreate that to make a No-God). Anyway! Really have to wonder what about Nau Cayuti that would make him so special. I might need to reread his dream scenes.
Bakker acknowledged that my thinking that the suitability to operate the Sarcophagus (i.e. become the No-God) is a reflection of closely mirroring the soul of an original insertant.
So, we should ask, who would that have been? My guess is an actual Progenitor. Their sin, recall is being too close to Absolute. So, therefor, only a soul sufficiently close to the Absolute is a candidate.
I recall seeing that answer. I was just under the impression that Nau Cayuti was the original insertant in that context. I don't remember how you phrased the question when I saw it, though, for some reason I thought it was about why was Kelmomas fine.
The theory seems reasonable, though I would still question how Kelmomas would fit. I'm not sure where he stands in comparison to the Absolute that might be similar to where Nau Cayuti was. Or (if the Mutilated truly believed) where Kellhus stood towards it.
-
I had the feeling for a long time that Nau Cayuti was meant to be the subject that would be the No-God, but I always thought something unique about his torment related it (so I had a crack-pot theory Kellhus was working with the Consult to torment all the Ordealsmen to recreate that to make a No-God). Anyway! Really have to wonder what about Nau Cayuti that would make him so special. I might need to reread his dream scenes.
Bakker acknowledged that my thinking that the suitability to operate the Sarcophagus (i.e. become the No-God) is a reflection of closely mirroring the soul of an original insertant.
So, we should ask, who would that have been? My guess is an actual Progenitor. Their sin, recall is being too close to Absolute. So, therefor, only a soul sufficiently close to the Absolute is a candidate.
I recall seeing that answer. I was just under the impression that Nau Cayuti was the original insertant in that context. I don't remember how you phrased the question when I saw it, though, for some reason I thought it was about why was Kelmomas fine.
The theory seems reasonable, though I would still question how Kelmomas would fit. I'm not sure where he stands in comparison to the Absolute that might be similar to where Nau Cayuti was. Or (if the Mutilated truly believed) where Kellhus stood towards it.
Yeah, perhaps my question wasn't as succinct as it could have been. It's plausible that this means the Kel was near to Nau, but I thought I by framing it inside a question of "other worlds" it would mean more about the pre-Eärwa insertents, however, that might not be a Bakker took it.
-
Yeah, perhaps my question wasn't as succinct as it could have been. It's plausible that this means the Kel was near to Nau, but I thought I by framing it inside a question of "other worlds" it would mean more about the pre-Eärwa insertents, however, that might not be a Bakker took it.
Considering that the Dunsult refer to the No-God as "the prosthesis" of the Ark, and the Ark itself had functioned fully before the Earwan crash-landing, it can't be said with certainty that the No-God existed pre-Earwa.
-
@H - I think that raises an interesting question as to whether or not beings of others worlds take the shape of Men or not. Always wondered if the origin of life would ever be explored (given what interesting tidbits there are for the origin of Non-men). Or if aliens also shared the same gods (given we know the Inchoroi creators had a form of worship and were damned). Either way, somehow both Nau Cayuti and Kelmomas shared something beyond blood in regards to their minds that made them suitable. As I said, I just struggle to see what that might be, given they vary greatly in several regards.
Yeah, perhaps my question wasn't as succinct as it could have been. It's plausible that this means the Kel was near to Nau, but I thought I by framing it inside a question of "other worlds" it would mean more about the pre-Eärwa insertents, however, that might not be a Bakker took it.
Considering that the Dunsult refer to the No-God as "the prosthesis" of the Ark, and the Ark itself had functioned fully before the Earwan crash-landing, it can't be said with certainty that the No-God existed pre-Earwa.
Wouldn't it have to have existed? The Dunyain acknowledge the No-God is necessary for shutting the Outside and the Inchoroi (or was it that one Wracu) note how they reduced several worlds before. Wouldn't that imply they must have used the No-God in those attempts?
-
Considering that the Dunsult refer to the No-God as "the prosthesis" of the Ark, and the Ark itself had functioned fully before the Earwan crash-landing, it can't be said with certainty that the No-God existed pre-Earwa.
Well, something like it must have, because Ark is dead, yet something must still be able to read the code-flash in the 144k solution (otherwise the whole plan is pointless). So, either Ark did before (via unknown mechanism) or the Sarcophagus did all along, just as a part (not separate) from Ark itself. My hunch was the the thing we know of was more probable (but indeed, we can't know).
-
Wouldn't it have to have existed? The Dunyain acknowledge the No-God is necessary for shutting the Outside
For them, in their current situation. It doesn't necessarily mean that it was so before, when the Ark was operational.
and the Inchoroi (or was it that one Wracu) note how they reduced several worlds before.
That was Wutteat at the end of TWLW.
So, either Ark did before (via unknown mechanism) or the Sarcophagus did all along, just as a part (not separate) from Ark itself. My hunch was the the thing we know of was more probable (but indeed, we can't know).
While a very big fan of the Law of Conservation of Detail, I just don't see why would they then specifically refer to the No-God as "the prosthesis". With the Ark being dead, the System doesn't work the way it did. This whole "using souls to complete the No-God's circuit" thing seems decidedly ad hoc to me. Even more so, it's described as ad hoc, at the end requiring the cunning of Men (the original Consult) to be completed.
This, in turn, raises the question of what the Ark actually is. Or was (?).
-
Wouldn't it have to have existed? The Dunyain acknowledge the No-God is necessary for shutting the Outside
For them, in their current situation. It doesn't necessarily mean that it was so before, when the Ark was operational.
Perhaps. I think the question remains one way or another, what unique aspect of even Nau-Cayuti, allowed him (and later Kelmomas) to become the No-God where those thrown in for over a thousand years were insufficient. I can buy the idea that Ark served the function of the No-God and they didn't have one before. But it still doesn't answer what about Nau-Cayuti worked.
-
Perhaps. I think the question remains one way or another, what unique aspect of even Nau-Cayuti, allowed him (and later Kelmomas) to become the No-God where those thrown in for over a thousand years were insufficient. I can buy the idea that Ark served the function of the No-God and they didn't have one before. But it still doesn't answer what about Nau-Cayuti worked.
In the recent AMA Bakker was talking - very vaguely, I must note - about Kelmomas's lack of identity. The problem with that notion for me resides in the fact that Kelmomas wasn't behaving like someone who has no self. He was narrow-minded, possibly schizophrenic, but still a person with his own desires and aspirations. That's why I'm loath to discuss this aspect of the series. It very well might be that Bakker has some point in mind (which is logically structured, if obfuscated, in the narrative), but I just don't see it because my understanding of fundamental things defining human behavior differs from his.
-
Wouldn't it have to have existed? The Dunyain acknowledge the No-God is necessary for shutting the Outside
For them, in their current situation. It doesn't necessarily mean that it was so before, when the Ark was operational.
Perhaps. I think the question remains one way or another, what unique aspect of even Nau-Cayuti, allowed him (and later Kelmomas) to become the No-God where those thrown in for over a thousand years were insufficient. I can buy the idea that Ark served the function of the No-God and they didn't have one before. But it still doesn't answer what about Nau-Cayuti worked.
+1. Those other victims were surely brutalized in the same way as Nau Cayuti.
In the interest of provoking more discussion it might be worth noting that the only confirmation of the Mutilated's assertion that it was NC in NoGod1.0 is Akka's dream. We still don't have the vaguest clue where that information comes from ... and we know that they have contradicted themselves before - when Anaxophus did not use the Heron Spear ... and so the DreamsFromTheSheath may not be trustworthy. No idea where to take this train of thought from here, but...
Celmomas has got a lot more similarities with his (K) namesake, twinsouled, dead-brother, direct lineage. Perhaps he is the key here.
-
Bakker answered this in the AMA and the Q&A thread. Nau-Cayuti and Kelmomas have the same brain structure as the original insertant (who was lost during Arkfall).
-
Bakker answered this in the AMA and the Q&A thread. Nau-Cayuti and Kelmomas have the same brain structure as the original insertant (who was lost during Arkfall).
Well, I read through both of those and must've missed that.
Perhaps this is what you mean?
Quote from: H on July 29, 2017, 06:57:10 am
I don't have a question prepared on short notice, so the first thing that comes to mind is to ask about Ark. It was my presumption that the No-God apparatus (the sarcophagus) functioned differently before Ark-fall. My supposition would be then that while Ark was fully functional, the souls of the Progenitors would have been contained therein, meaning that on other worlds, it would have been unnecessary to find a suitable surrogate. Of course, the presumption then would be that what makes a soul a suitable alternative is not specifically Anisûrimbor blood, but rather similarity to the Progenitors. Could this be an accurate summation?
Plug and play, basically. Having lost the original store of circuits, the Consult had no choice but to keep rummaging through the heap the World provided. The Anasurimbor, for whatever reason, have proven apt historically.
Doesn't seem that cut and dried to me.
-
Bakker answered this in the AMA and the Q&A thread. Nau-Cayuti and Kelmomas have the same brain structure as the original insertant (who was lost during Arkfall).
I would modify this slightly in that he said an original insertant, not the original insertant, so I don't think there was only one of them.
EDIT - fixed the tag.
-
Bakker answered this in the AMA and the Q&A thread. Nau-Cayuti and Kelmomas have the same brain structure as the original insertant (who was lost during Arkfall).
The full quote (https://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/6r3hba/unholy_consultation_r_scott_bakker_bares_the_soul/dl486zk/) is as follows:
The Consult was obsessed because of Moenghus's discovery of their skin-spies. No part of Earwa's native population enjoys any 'technological advantage' in any gunpowdery sense. And lastly, it's not the blood that enables the Carapace, its the ability of the brain to functionally emulate that of an original Insertant.
It doesn't reference Arkfall or Ark in any way.
-
Bakker answered this in the AMA and the Q&A thread. Nau-Cayuti and Kelmomas have the same brain structure as the original insertant (who was lost during Arkfall).
I would modify this slightly in that he said an[/] original insertant, not the original insertant, so I don't think there was only one of them.
Yes
Bakker answered this in the AMA and the Q&A thread. Nau-Cayuti and Kelmomas have the same brain structure as the original insertant (who was lost during Arkfall).
The full quote (https://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/6r3hba/unholy_consultation_r_scott_bakker_bares_the_soul/dl486zk/) is as follows:
The Consult was obsessed because of Moenghus's discovery of their skin-spies. No part of Earwa's native population enjoys any 'technological advantage' in any gunpowdery sense. And lastly, it's not the blood that enables the Carapace, its the ability of the brain to functionally emulate that of an original Insertant.
It doesn't reference Arkfall or Ark in any way.
The quote quoted by Curethan Quote from: H on July 29, 2017, 06:57:10 am
I don't have a question prepared on short notice, so the first thing that comes to mind is to ask about Ark. It was my presumption that the No-God apparatus (the sarcophagus) functioned differently before Ark-fall. My supposition would be then that while Ark was fully functional, the souls of the Progenitors would have been contained therein, meaning that on other worlds, it would have been unnecessary to find a suitable surrogate. Of course, the presumption then would be that what makes a soul a suitable alternative is not specifically Anisûrimbor blood, but rather similarity to the Progenitors. Could this be an accurate summation?
Plug and play, basically. Having lost the original store of circuits, the Consult had no choice but to keep rummaging through the heap the World provided. The Anasurimbor, for whatever reason, have proven apt historically.
This original store of circuits must've been lost during Arkfall. At least that's the way I see it.
-
This original store of circuits must've been lost during Arkfall. At least that's the way I see it.
I've read it as the No-God itself being the ad hoc replacement for those circuits, hence the insertants with less than obvious properties.
[edit] Oh, another consideration just came to me. The Sarcophagus is human-shaped, while the Inchoroi aren't, and had been even less initially.
-
Thanks for the quote, Tleilaxu, I did miss that one. Your speculation makes a lot more sense now. :)
-
I wonder if System Resumption would have happened if Kellhus has actually gotten inside. For all we know he might have died like the majority of those who are tossed in.
-
Being one of the two whose questions on the AMA are referenced in the OP, my take, for what it's worth, is that the Vision (at least the one in GTO) is not Ajokli. I rather feel that the Vision is an outlet for Kellhus' actual being a Prophet and that he chose, for whatever reasons, to ignore and mistrust this experience and to do some demon negotiations instead.
The entity that I believe was actually Ajokli in the text, is "the most crocodilian of the Sons".
That said, a couple of related inconsistencies/questions are present, some of which have been partly addressed in this topic:
- Nau-Cayuti is not a direct ancestor of Kellhus (unless he meant that in a more general way)
- Bakker does at one point claim that Anasurimbors are important as circuits, but in another place claims that not the bloodline but the identity-ambiguity is important. Certainly not all of the Anasurimbors were identity-ambigious and if we trust Akka's dreams not even Nau-Cayuti had any such condition (this is not to say that Akka's dreams should be taken at face value of course).
- More importantly though, what at all is the entire reasoning, motivation and connection to reality of the Celmomian prophecy? Again, if we take Akka's dreams as somewhat authoritative, then it comes from either Gilgaol or Ajokli. Gilgaol can't perceive the No-God and the Apocalypse, meaning it sounds pointless for him to send any such prophecies about the end of the world. Ajokli has SOME motivation to set this entire charade up, since he's in the present and in the past at the same time, but then why the hell do the Mutilated take this seriously at all? If Akka's dreams are not authoritative and something entirely else is going on with the Celmomian prophecy, then why don't we know about it? Narrative wise it would make better sense to let us in the know, no?
-
Being one of the two whose questions on the AMA are referenced in the OP, my take, for what it's worth, is that the Vision (at least the one in GTO) is not Ajokli. I rather feel that the Vision is an outlet for Kellhus' actual being a Prophet and that he chose, for whatever reasons, to ignore and mistrust this experience and to do some demon negotiations instead.
The entity that I believe was actually Ajokli in the text, is "the most crocodilian of the Sons".
+1
And, I think that is the outlet in which we'll see Kellhus going forward.
-
- Nau-Cayuti is not a direct ancestor of Kellhus (unless he meant that in a more general way)
- but then why the hell do the Mutilated take this seriously at all?
Question - Do you know Anasurimbor Ganrelka II relation to Celmomas II? All I saw was that he was his successor, wasn't sure if he was specifically a son or what all. But I assume it was a general note regardless.
As for The Mutilated taking the prophecy seriously point, sometimes I think it just relates to being somewhat unclear on what will work as well. It seemed like they wanted to try Kellhus and Kelmomas was a backup plan. 'We need a soul, Nau-Cayuti worked before out of tens of thousands, there is a prophecy about his bloodline returning...'
I have to wonder if Celmomas having a prophecy featuring Kellhus around his death might actually be Kellhus trying to reach from the Outside to the Now. I mean, we already now the Outside has a very, very strange relationship with time. But I feel like Saubon seeing his own death before and after might relate to this if Akka's dreams have some truth.
-
Is this all going to end up with Kellhus making some sort of time loop?
-
Prophecy is a time loop by nature. If we trust Akka's dream, Celmommas saw Kellhus as he is in the future, decapitated and all.
-
Prophecy is a time loop by nature. If we trust Akka's dream, Celmommas saw Kellhus as he is in the future, decapitated and all.
Remember that the No-God can disrupt eternity tho.
-
Yep, the Nogod might be responsible.
I should also mention that I meant to say 'decapitants', burrito correct had other plans.
Edit; ffs, autocorrect
-
Yep, the Nogod might be responsible.
I should also mention that I meant to say 'decapitants', burrito correct had other plans.
Edit; ffs, autocorrect
Totally off-topic, but 'burrito correct' is pretty hilarious.
-
Don't argue with the burrito man
-
That's such gold.
-
+1 for the "most crocodilian of the Sons" being Ajokli, especially as it matches Cnaiur's swazond.
Even though the Gods cannot see the No-God, they can still identify those mortals who were most prominent in the world right before it all went dark from their PoV. So if, from Gilgaol's PoV, the final Apocalypse looks like Kellhus ruling the World, marching a huge army into the North and then *bang!* the Outside is shut off, he's going to make the assumption that Kellhus is to blame and try to avert it through Celmomas' dying vision. The similarities of the two situations (massive army called the Great Ordeal, led by an Anasurimbor, getting slaughtered in the North of Earwa) presumably made it easier for Gilgaol to get the message through at that precise moment.
The vision is not Gilgaol saying, "Here's the schmuck who will unleash/become the No-God." He's saying, "No-God? WTF is that? Everything is fine in your time period, so quit yer whining. Now listen, here's the guy you need to worry about. The real Apocalypse is something to do with him."