The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => General Earwa => Topic started by: Madness on August 14, 2017, 08:16:10 pm

Title: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Madness on August 14, 2017, 08:16:10 pm
Forum,

Hello, how are you? It's been a Zaudunyanicon since I read you last!

So...

I made this thread so that forum members can sound the Nine Nascenti on what they experienced at Zaudunyanicon 2017! I'm also going to make a thread about what we'd like to see at "next years" Zaudunyanicon (in perpetuity).

The Nascenti (thank you, pail) are Hand of Yawgmoth, pail, Tivadar, Camlost, arrogantfascist, mrganondorf (bakkerfans), Wilshire, and Thing called Sarcellus. Feel free to ask them "What Did You See?" ;)

Bakker's brother (of The Second Apocalypse trailer (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIciOLD3iO0) fame) recorded much of Friday night and Saturday's interactions. There also may be some forthcoming audio recordings. Among... countless other nuggets.

It was well and truly overwhelming - and I have had the benefit of previous interactions.

Friday the first hour was a very informal chat session before Bryan Bakker (Bakker's brother) formalized us into shape and the night continued as half Bakker waxing on any given number of subjects/half Q&A. A side note, Bakker is very interested in ideas for some kind of prequel novel to help "grease the stairs" into TDTCB. Friday night, the hotel restaurant opened for the 12 of us (including Bakker, his brother, and his wife) so that we could continue socializing beyond our event space time (which a number of us did until almost 2am between the bar and Wilshire's hotel room).

Saturday the group of us did breakfast (to which I was late, of course) and then chatted for a time in our event space before forming a D&D session and a crash-course of William R's "The Vulgar Holy War (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=2101.msg32096#msg32096) (which ran quite nicely up until we really got going and Bakker showed up). Bakker's brother filmed some round-table interviews across Friday night and Saturday afternoon following which Bakker signed everyone's books (including Wracu-Wilshire's entire Coffers!) and all the posters that Somnambulist generously allowed us to print (forthcoming thread about a signed poster/Zaudunyanicon 2017 patch giveaway). Then Bakker proceeded to yield us an unadulterated story Q&A that seemed to last far longer than intended (the hotel graciously allowed us the space far longer than our respectively booked times), which you can and should ply the Nascenti about.

Saturday evening, the group of us went out for dinner and then proceeded to drink/not drink and play Tak and euchre and Quarto and talk endlessly about the series, TUC, the weekend, life, the universe, and everything in Wilshire's room until about 3-4am on Sunday.

Sunday morning we met up for breakfast and then proceeded to mourn the quickness of time and wish everyone Strength on the Journey on their various slogs home.

I have plenty of pictures incoming from the Nascenti, the forthcoming polished and possibly raw recordings from Bakker the Brother, as well as possible audio recordings from the weekend to release so I will keep everyone updated.

Cheers.

And in the meantime, ply the Nascenti here!
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Hiro on August 14, 2017, 08:21:10 pm
 8)
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Madness on August 14, 2017, 08:21:44 pm
Just edited a bit but I already relayed most of this to you, Hiro :).
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Woden on August 14, 2017, 08:29:49 pm
Awesome.
 What did you see? What are you?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: MSJ on August 14, 2017, 09:17:38 pm
Did y'all find meaning?

For real though, what's the best piece of info gleaned from the man that would have us shitting and giggling.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on August 14, 2017, 09:20:53 pm
I'm also interested in knowing what you guys learned from the Q&A, anything surprising/intriguing that hadn't come up before in the AMA?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: codebread on August 15, 2017, 02:52:22 am
Were there any notable Freudian slips on Bakker's part about things we aren't supposed to know yet?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: H on August 15, 2017, 12:25:24 pm
Glad to hear it went well and sorry that I couldn't make it.

Perhaps next year...
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Wilshire on August 15, 2017, 12:31:29 pm
Were there any notable Freudian slips on Bakker's part about things we aren't supposed to know yet?

I don't think so.

Bakker seemed pretty ready to talk about whatever we asked about. Just a couple RAFO's, and explicitly "no questions about halos". Other than that, he seemed happy to indulge us.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: TLEILAXU on August 15, 2017, 01:17:43 pm
So... was anything revealed about the fate of Shaeönanra?
And did anybody ask about Kellhus telling Proyas that the Inchoroi must win at some point :D?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Madness on August 15, 2017, 03:59:05 pm
Awesome.
 What did you see? What are you?

Lol, I think I've described a portion of what I saw above.

Seriously, brain just feels overloaded right now - though that could have been the beers as well.

After this weekend, I am the Lesser Madness living and dreaming and hoping while the Greater Madness plays its game ;).

Did y'all find meaning?

For real though, what's the best piece of info gleaned from the man that would have us shitting and giggling.

I feel like there was a pretty extensive conversation regarding morality on Friday night. One great line that got a laugh, I think, was "Would you ask Mohammad to rewrite the Quran?"

I'm also interested in knowing what you guys learned from the Q&A, anything surprising/intriguing that hadn't come up before in the AMA?

- "Kellhus is dead but not done."
- I missed a couple portions of Saturday but as I have always a big proponent of Fanimry it was relayed to me later that no in-world interpretation about the state of the World, the Outside, and the reality of Earwa is right; Memgowa, then Ajencis have come up with the best interpretations but Fane is among the most wrong.

Broke my heart, though Meppa is definitely alive and his story continues in TNG.

Also, Sarl's story continues in TNG!

Plenty of others but I will let others divulge as the Nascenti all take time to digest.

Bakker seemed pretty ready to talk about whatever we asked about. Just a couple RAFO's, and explicitly "no questions about halos". Other than that, he seemed happy to indulge us.

I was, of course, very pleased to hear about this about the halo questions ;).

So... was anything revealed about the fate of Shaeönanra?
And did anybody ask about Kellhus telling Proyas that the Inchoroi must win at some point :D?

Others can answer better than I but we brought up the theories his Q&A/AMA answers about Shauriatas had spawned and it's a big ol' RAFO.

I don't think we got a chance to query regarding "the Inchoroi must win."
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: pail on August 15, 2017, 04:04:13 pm
Good overview Madness, but, among other things, you didn't even mention The Crabiciad...
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Madness on August 15, 2017, 04:16:28 pm
Lmao, Camlost spelled it the Crabiqiad in a text yesterday ;).

But you know my story, I'm more than happy to let the other Nascenti field these questions and their impressions for themselves.

Coming from me it's just easily dismissed - not that I won't be posting as much as I possibly can over the next week (though I'm finally hoping to finish TUC ;)!).
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: pail on August 15, 2017, 04:19:37 pm
True, we all know you're full of shit, Madness.

Crabiqiad, I like it.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Madness on August 15, 2017, 04:21:28 pm
True, we all know you're full of shit, Madness.

Exactly :D.

Also, I found that article Bakker was talking about Friday: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/09/has-the-smartphone-destroyed-a-generation/534198/
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Hiro on August 15, 2017, 04:22:22 pm
More cool stuff... thanks for sharing.

Sarl -   :o - with Kosoter...?

What about the tapestries, any light on the meaning and whereabouts of the Ekkinū, for instance?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on August 15, 2017, 04:25:20 pm
- "Kellhus is dead but not done."

I wonder if that means we'll see Kellhus in the Outside as it has been suggested (or the Baby Kellhus theory is not truly dead after all... :P).


- I missed a couple portions of Saturday but as I have always a big proponent of Fanimry it was relayed to me later that no in-world interpretation about the state of the World, the Outside, and the reality of Earwa is right; Memgowa, then Ajencis have come up with the best interpretations but Fane is among the most wrong.

Broke my heart, though Meppa is definitely alive and his story continues in TNG.

That's an interesting revelation, I was never particularly attached to Fanimry myself but I wasn't expecting that.
Glad to know Meppa is definitely still alive. :)


Also, Sarl's story continues in TNG!

Oh, wow, can you believe I had almost forgotten about him by this point? Having him show up again will be entertaining for sure.


Good overview Madness, but, among other things, you didn't even mention The Crabiciad...

The epic tale of how Crabicus/the Boy will save the World single-handedly? ;)
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Yellow on August 15, 2017, 04:39:55 pm
Kellhus, Shauriatis, Halos, Fanimry. All fucking amazing.

If you guys ever want to do this in the UK, I'm in!
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Bolivar on August 15, 2017, 04:47:26 pm
Pictures!

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Madness on August 15, 2017, 04:49:31 pm
MG just sent me a bunch and Tivadar is likewise forwarding some along! There will be many pictures to come. Not to mention cuts of footage that Bakker the Brother took over the two days.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: H on August 15, 2017, 05:29:16 pm
- I missed a couple portions of Saturday but as I have always a big proponent of Fanimry it was relayed to me later that no in-world interpretation about the state of the World, the Outside, and the reality of Earwa is right; Memgowa, then Ajencis have come up with the best interpretations but Fane is among the most wrong.

I know I posted (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=782.msg22384#msg22384) it before and I think I talked about it in a cast, but indeed, I never bought Fane's interpretation as being "correct."
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Redeagl on August 15, 2017, 05:35:53 pm
Awesome.
 What did you see? What are you?

Lol, I think I've described a portion of what I saw above.

Seriously, brain just feels overloaded right now - though that could have been the beers as well.

After this weekend, I am the Lesser Madness living and dreaming and hoping while the Greater Madness plays its game ;).

Did y'all find meaning?

For real though, what's the best piece of info gleaned from the man that would have us shitting and giggling.

I feel like there was a pretty extensive conversation regarding morality on Friday night. One great line that got a laugh, I think, was "Would you ask Mohammad to rewrite the Quran?"

I'm also interested in knowing what you guys learned from the Q&A, anything surprising/intriguing that hadn't come up before in the AMA?

- "Kellhus is dead but not done."
- I missed a couple portions of Saturday but as I have always a big proponent of Fanimry it was relayed to me later that no in-world interpretation about the state of the World, the Outside, and the reality of Earwa is right; Memgowa, then Ajencis have come up with the best interpretations but Fane is among the most wrong.

Broke my heart, though Meppa is definitely alive and his story continues in TNG.

Also, Sarl's story continues in TNG!

Plenty of others but I will let others divulge as the Nascenti all take time to digest.

Bakker seemed pretty ready to talk about whatever we asked about. Just a couple RAFO's, and explicitly "no questions about halos". Other than that, he seemed happy to indulge us.

I was, of course, very pleased to hear about this about the halo questions ;).

So... was anything revealed about the fate of Shaeönanra?
And did anybody ask about Kellhus telling Proyas that the Inchoroi must win at some point :D?

Others can answer better than I but we brought up the theories his Q&A/AMA answers about Shauriatas had spawned and it's a big ol' RAFO.

I don't think we got a chance to query regarding "the Inchoroi must win."
Haha, even Bakker doesn't know the Truth about Kellhus.

Also, wasn't Meppa right about the Hundred being demons?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: jurble on August 15, 2017, 06:41:12 pm
He's not wrong that the Gods have the same qualities as Ciphrang, they're just bigger.  But the fundamental part of the Fanim worldview is that God exists apart from Creation and that the Outside isn't the 'real' afterlife, but is Hell and the real afterlife is something believers in Fanimry can attain by escaping the Outside and its demons.   So in practicality the Fanim are trying to achieve Oblivion like the Nonmen, but for completely wrong reasons and under incorrect assumptions (that there exists an afterlife beyond the Outside).
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Woden on August 15, 2017, 07:11:47 pm
Some quotes of Memgowa to clarify things:

“The vulgar think the God by analogy to man and so worship Him in the form of the Gods. The learned think the God by analogy to principles and so worshp Him in the form of Love or Truth. But the wise think the God not at all. They know that thought, which is finite, can only do violence to the God, who is infinite.”

That thought is near the Kellhus talk about God as a It.

"If the immutable appears recast, then you yourself have been transformed."

And the immutable appears recast to me - is not the Consult trying to recast the immutable?

“In life, your soul is but the extension of your body, which reaches inwards until it finds its centre in spirit. In death, your body is but the extension of your soul, which reaches outward until it finds its circumference in flesh. In both instances, all things appear the same. Thus are the dead and the living confused

WOW.

“If all human events possess purpose, then all human deeds possess purpose. And yet when men vie with men, the purpose of no man comes to fruition: the result always falls somewhere in between. The purpose of deeds, then, cannot derive from the purposes of men, because all men vie with all men. This means the deeds of men must be willed by something other than men. From this it follows that we are all slaves. Who then is our Master?”

THIS.

"Souls can no more see the origins of their thought than they can see the backs of their heads or the insides of their entrails. And since souls cannot differentiate what they cannot see, there is a peculiar sense in which the soul cannot self-differentiate. So it is always, in a peculiar sense, the same time when they think, the same place where they think, and the same individual who does the thinking. Like tipping a spiral on its side until only a circle can be seen, the passage of moments always remains now, the carnival of spaces always sojourns here, and the succession of people always becomes me. The truth is, if the soul could apprehend itself the way it apprehended the world -- if it could apprehend its origins -- it would see that there is no now, there is no here, and there is no me. In other words, it would realize that just as there is no circle, there is no soul."

Again: THIS.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: codebread on August 15, 2017, 07:42:03 pm
Any theories on why questions about halos are forbidden, besides the obvious lack of clarification around them throughout the series?

Also, what prompted him to say that? Did someone ask about them first or did he simply say "no questions about halos" before the Q&A began?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: dharmakirti on August 15, 2017, 07:48:19 pm
It sounds like a great time was had. 

I really wanted to go and I feel bad that my inability to plan more than a day or two ahead got in the way of doing something that would have meant a lot to me. 


Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Wilshire on August 15, 2017, 07:53:39 pm
Also, what prompted him to say that? Did someone ask about them first or did he simply say "no questions about halos" before the Q&A began?

Somewhere near the start of Friday Q/A somone asked a questions about something, Kellhus maybe?, and in the answers he tacked on "and no questions about halos" - that is my vague memory. Good thing I got recordings and we won't have to rely on my shit memory once we type it up.

-And no, I have no intention of posting the recordings. Some moments were not for the rest of you. Come to the next one ;) . Bakker the Younger will be posting plenty of stuff for you all eventually, and we'll be posting pictures. I've got a great one of him signing the Coffers :D .
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Redeagl on August 15, 2017, 07:59:12 pm
Nobody asked about Likaro?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Spooky on August 15, 2017, 08:03:46 pm
Also, what prompted him to say that? Did someone ask about them first or did he simply say "no questions about halos" before the Q&A began?

Somewhere near the start of Friday Q/A somone asked a questions about something, Kellhus maybe?, and in the answers he tacked on "and no questions about halos" - that is my vague memory. Good thing I got recordings and we won't have to rely on my shit memory once we type it up.

-And no, I have no intention of posting the recordings. Some moments were not for the rest of you. Come to the next one ;) . Bakker the Younger will be posting plenty of stuff for you all eventually, and we'll be posting pictures. I've got a great one of him signing the Coffers :D .

Petty. Almost nauseatingly similar to jealous small-minded disciples hoarding their master's words for temporal power.  This author, future Zaudunyani cons and this work will not be served by secrecy of any kind.  Martin, Abercrombie and Rothfuss are most well served by fans shouting to the heaven's and across reddit anytime they get a chance to hear thoughts from their favorite scribe.

Get out of the way and spread the word.

Edit(s): Added the damage to future cons and grammar.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Swayal Serpent on August 16, 2017, 04:00:50 am
Also, what prompted him to say that? Did someone ask about them first or did he simply say "no questions about halos" before the Q&A began?

Somewhere near the start of Friday Q/A somone asked a questions about something, Kellhus maybe?, and in the answers he tacked on "and no questions about halos" - that is my vague memory. Good thing I got recordings and we won't have to rely on my shit memory once we type it up.

-And no, I have no intention of posting the recordings. Some moments were not for the rest of you. Come to the next one ;) . Bakker the Younger will be posting plenty of stuff for you all eventually, and we'll be posting pictures. I've got a great one of him signing the Coffers :D .

Petty. Almost nauseatingly similar to jealous small-minded disciples hoarding their master's words for temporal power.  This author, future Zaudunyani cons and this work will not be served by secrecy of any kind.  Martin, Abercrombie and Rothfuss are most well served by fans shouting to the heaven's and across reddit anytime they get a chance to hear thoughts from their favorite scribe.

Get out of the way and spread the word.

Edit(s): Added the damage to future cons and grammar.

I don't think that's entirely fair. Wilshire has already been kind enough to share alot with us, and will probably continue to share with us. While I do.wish that he would share the recording, he has no obligation to, and I understand why he wouldn't. Bakker probably told the nascenti to keep certain things confidential to avoid spoilers for the rest of us
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Monkhound on August 16, 2017, 05:40:05 am
Kellhus, Shauriatis, Halos, Fanimry. All fucking amazing.

If you guys ever want to do this in the UK, I'm in!

Same here: The UK would require lot less planning ahead than Canada  ;D
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: solipsisticurge on August 16, 2017, 06:02:29 am
Again, sad I had to miss this, but reality does not cooperate with desires. (Neither does my daughter, haha.)

Glad for the confirmation Meppa is alive, and hoping the Psukhe will be further explored in TNG. Not surprised Fane's interpretation is inaccurate, but sorcery with no Mark still makes me want to know more.

Also confirms my ideas regarding Kellhus in TNG. I've not thought he was going to make a glorious return on horseback through Gnostic-Daimotic-Dunyain trickery, but all his mucking about with the Outside, damnation, empires, et al, had to yield some contingencies that have not yet been explored, whether planned in advance as a post-failure eventuality by the man himself, or seized by the mighty Likaro and exploited to new ends in the Second Apocalypse.

Can't wait for whatever audio/video does make its way up here!
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: themerchant on August 16, 2017, 12:02:10 pm
Also, what prompted him to say that? Did someone ask about them first or did he simply say "no questions about halos" before the Q&A began?

 Some moments were not for the rest of you.

ah look a new clique lol
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Woden on August 16, 2017, 01:34:41 pm
Living in the other side of the world is indeed my fault. ;D
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Hand of Yawgmoth on August 16, 2017, 02:48:56 pm
Bakker was nonplussed by the name Crabbicus, and he seemed almost offended that we've starting calling the first book of TNG The Crabiqiad.

He still seemed surprised at the idea of Baby Kellhus and that people read so much into it.

Cnaiur's possession by Ajokli, stumbling blind into the Whirlwind, has been in the plan for decades.

Bakker was genuinely upset when we showed him all the typos in TUC as proof that Overlook is doing a poor job.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: codebread on August 16, 2017, 02:51:32 pm
Bakker was nonplussed by the name Crabbicus, and he seemed almost offended that we've starting calling the first book of TNG The Crabiqiad.

He still seemed surprised at the idea of Baby Kellhus and that people read so much into it.

Cnaiur's possession by Ajokli, stumbling blind into the Whirlwind, has been in the plan for decades.

Bakker was genuinely upset when we showed him all the typos in TUC as proof that Overlook is doing a poor job.

This is what I was hoping for in this thread :) Thanks for sharing!
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Wilshire on August 16, 2017, 03:25:09 pm
Also, what prompted him to say that? Did someone ask about them first or did he simply say "no questions about halos" before the Q&A began?

 Some moments were not for the rest of you.

ah look a new clique lol
lmao. Yes yes, let me hold my privilege over you.
Nah I just meant it was a fairly personal setting and some moments beyond the book discussion were just conversational. And besides, I'm encouraging the rest of you to come 'next year'. At least I didn't call for a media blackout since we didn't sell enough tickets ;) .

Who knows how many hidden cliques there are here, ya know? ARC readers, manuscript readers, these Nascenti, etc. We've got titles and groups for those who need be separated from the rest (or do we??). To cull the willing from the herd, as it were ;) . That's how we maintain our control, separating everyone into isolated cells and pitting them against eachother. *maniacal laugh*.

Oh, who was it, Tividar I think, late one night said something to the effect of "Wilshire I thought you'd be more of an asshole". This greatly amused me. Defying expectations is favorite :D. (Tividar if you remember exactly what you said, please quote for me lol).
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Wilshire on August 16, 2017, 03:27:43 pm
Sorry not current in this thread. Did anyone mention meta-meta-gnostic sorcery yet? Basically Super Saiyan 3.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: codebread on August 16, 2017, 03:40:46 pm
Sorry not current in this thread. Did anyone mention meta-meta-gnostic sorcery yet? Basically Super Saiyan 3.

Is this an actual (theoretical) thing?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Madness on August 16, 2017, 03:52:25 pm
...

Nice, Woden!

Somewhere near the start of Friday Q/A somone asked a questions about something, Kellhus maybe?, and in the answers he tacked on "and no questions about halos" - that is my vague memory. Good thing I got recordings and we won't have to rely on my shit memory once we type it up.

I think this was the start of Saturday's post-signing, informal Q&A.

-And no, I have no intention of posting the recordings. Some moments were not for the rest of you. Come to the next one ;) . Bakker the Younger will be posting plenty of stuff for you all eventually, and we'll be posting pictures. I've got a great one of him signing the Coffers :D .

Plus Tivadar, HOY, or I need to polish the recordings and pass them by Bakker, which will take time.

I'm working on presentable transcripts shortly. There's a lot of content for the Nascenti to share over the days and weeks to come.

Petty. Almost nauseatingly similar to jealous small-minded disciples hoarding their master's words for temporal power.  This author, future Zaudunyani cons and this work will not be served by secrecy of any kind.  Martin, Abercrombie and Rothfuss are most well served by fans shouting to the heaven's and across reddit anytime they get a chance to hear thoughts from their favorite scribe.

Get out of the way and spread the word.

Edit(s): Added the damage to future cons and grammar.

Well, I mean... we're going to share everything we can probably. The audio recording might be a sticking issue but Bakker the Brother got most of the same stuff captured on video.

I don't think that's entirely fair. Wilshire has already been kind enough to share alot with us, and will probably continue to share with us. While I do.wish that he would share the recording, he has no obligation to, and I understand why he wouldn't. Bakker probably told the nascenti to keep certain things confidential to avoid spoilers for the rest of us

There are definitely stories that only seem right to hear from TMH. Some deeply personal and intense conversations were had among the group of us.

Bakker was nonplussed by the name Crabbicus, and he seemed almost offended that we've starting calling the first book of TNG The Crabiqiad.

Yeah, he didn't like that at all... but it's such a good name and consistent with Bakker's words so far about TNG. You can't call it the Sagas, tell us the Crabicus' story might be a whole book, and then not have us use the naming conventions provided to us so far.

I'll bet it's a McCarthy thing: the Boy was to rename Nameless, I suppose.

Cnaiur's possession by Ajokli, stumbling blind into the Whirlwind, has been in the plan for decades.

Drafted in his early twenties, even :o!

Bakker was genuinely upset when we showed him all the typos in TUC as proof that Overlook is doing a poor job.

Indeed, though, post-Zaudunyanicon, he thinks he figured out what happened...

ah look a new clique lol

lmao. Yes yes, let me hold my privilege over you.
Nah I just meant it was a fairly personal setting and some moments beyond the book discussion were just conversational. And besides, I'm encouraging the rest of you to come 'next year'. At least I didn't call for a media blackout since we didn't sell enough tickets ;).

Lmao.

Who knows how many hidden cliques there are here, ya know? ARC readers, manuscript readers, these Nascenti, etc. We've got titles and groups for those who need be separated from the rest (or do we??). To cull the willing from the herd, as it were ;) . That's how we maintain our control, separating everyone into isolated cells and pitting them against eachother. *maniacal laugh*.

Oh, who was it, Tividar I think, late one night said something to the effect of "Wilshire I thought you'd be more of an asshole". This greatly amused me. Defying expectations is favorite :D. (Tividar if you remember exactly what you said, please quote for me lol).

Lmao, as I said, if you're an asshole, I can't imagine there's a word harsh enough for me.

Sorry not current in this thread. Did anyone mention meta-meta-gnostic sorcery yet? Basically Super Saiyan 3.

Nah, but seems opportune to do so - though, if it comes from me it's 60% less true 100% of the time, so I'm going to continue to let others share their unique reality-tunnels.

Plus be going through the audio to transcribe so at least then I'll be able to source proof.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: H on August 16, 2017, 04:03:48 pm
Sorry not current in this thread. Did anyone mention meta-meta-gnostic sorcery yet? Basically Super Saiyan 3.

Is this an actual (theoretical) thing?

Well, I don't see why not.  I mean, there shouldn't be a theoretical limit to how many things you don't say.

Of course, there is a practical limit to those by individual, but who knows what it would be...
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Redeagl on August 16, 2017, 04:07:02 pm
Crabicus story might be a whole book, huh?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Wilshire on August 16, 2017, 04:14:25 pm
Also, what prompted him to say that? Did someone ask about them first or did he simply say "no questions about halos" before the Q&A began?

Somewhere near the start of Friday Q/A somone asked a questions about something, Kellhus maybe?, and in the answers he tacked on "and no questions about halos" - that is my vague memory. Good thing I got recordings and we won't have to rely on my shit memory once we type it up.

-And no, I have no intention of posting the recordings. Some moments were not for the rest of you. Come to the next one ;) . Bakker the Younger will be posting plenty of stuff for you all eventually, and we'll be posting pictures. I've got a great one of him signing the Coffers :D .

Petty. Almost nauseatingly similar to jealous small-minded disciples hoarding their master's words for temporal power.  This author, future Zaudunyani cons and this work will not be served by secrecy of any kind.  Martin, Abercrombie and Rothfuss are most well served by fans shouting to the heaven's and across reddit anytime they get a chance to hear thoughts from their favorite scribe.

Get out of the way and spread the word.

Edit(s): Added the damage to future cons and grammar.
Oh, lol, sorry I missed this. Even if you are serious, you were invited the same as everyone else. Come 'next year' and do as you will.
And you're always welcome to make your own forum, develop your own relationships, forge your own community, make your own plans with Bakker, and hold your own fun gatherings. I'd imagine they'd be much better than the shit we've been able to pull together - let's be honest, Zaudunyanicon was a failure (really guys, 9 people?), so make a better one next year. I'd much rather go to one or watch the video than have to plan it.

Or stay here and wait for whatever scraps drop from 'jealous small-minded disciples' lol. As always, thanks for commenting, every bit helps spread the word :) .
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Redeagl on August 16, 2017, 04:14:35 pm
Also, what prompted him to say that? Did someone ask about them first or did he simply say "no questions about halos" before the Q&A began?

Somewhere near the start of Friday Q/A somone asked a questions about something, Kellhus maybe?, and in the answers he tacked on "and no questions about halos" - that is my vague memory. Good thing I got recordings and we won't have to rely on my shit memory once we type it up.

-And no, I have no intention of posting the recordings. Some moments were not for the rest of you. Come to the next one ;) . Bakker the Younger will be posting plenty of stuff for you all eventually, and we'll be posting pictures. I've got a great one of him signing the Coffers :D .

Petty. Almost nauseatingly similar to jealous small-minded disciples hoarding their master's words for temporal power.  This author, future Zaudunyani cons and this work will not be served by secrecy of any kind.  Martin, Abercrombie and Rothfuss are most well served by fans shouting to the heaven's and across reddit anytime they get a chance to hear thoughts from their favorite scribe.

Get out of the way and spread the word.

Edit(s): Added the damage to future cons and grammar.
Well to be fair, Spooky is kind of correct on this.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Redeagl on August 16, 2017, 04:18:01 pm
Also, what prompted him to say that? Did someone ask about them first or did he simply say "no questions about halos" before the Q&A began?

Somewhere near the start of Friday Q/A somone asked a questions about something, Kellhus maybe?, and in the answers he tacked on "and no questions about halos" - that is my vague memory. Good thing I got recordings and we won't have to rely on my shit memory once we type it up.

-And no, I have no intention of posting the recordings. Some moments were not for the rest of you. Come to the next one ;) . Bakker the Younger will be posting plenty of stuff for you all eventually, and we'll be posting pictures. I've got a great one of him signing the Coffers :D .

Petty. Almost nauseatingly similar to jealous small-minded disciples hoarding their master's words for temporal power.  This author, future Zaudunyani cons and this work will not be served by secrecy of any kind.  Martin, Abercrombie and Rothfuss are most well served by fans shouting to the heaven's and across reddit anytime they get a chance to hear thoughts from their favorite scribe.

Get out of the way and spread the word.

Edit(s): Added the damage to future cons and grammar.
Oh, lol, sorry I missed this. Even if you are serious, you were invited the same as everyone else. Come 'next year' and do as you will.
And you're always welcome to make your own forum, develop your own relationships, forge your own community, make your own plans with Bakker, and hold your own fun gatherings. I'd imagine they'd be much better than the shit we've been able to pull together - let's be honest, Zaudunyanicon was a failure (really guys, 9 people?), so make a better one next year. I'd much rather go to one or watch the video than have to plan it.

Or stay here and wait for whatever scraps drop from 'jealous small-minded disciples' lol. As always, thanks for commenting, every bit helps spread the word :) .
Zaudunyannicon wasn't a failure, it was just something for fun and if you had that then it was a success :)
However, the "come next year" logic is flawed. As not everyone is a millionaire who lives in the house next to Bakker and have infinite free time.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Wilshire on August 16, 2017, 04:20:21 pm
Sorry not current in this thread. Did anyone mention meta-meta-gnostic sorcery yet? Basically Super Saiyan 3.

Is this an actual (theoretical) thing?

Well, I don't see why not.  I mean, there shouldn't be a theoretical limit to how many things you don't say.

Of course, there is a practical limit to those by individual, but who knows what it would be...

I was being kinda tongue-in-cheek with the description, but apparently Kellhus' "markless" magic - like him levitating at the last whelming (Kelmomas said he couldn't see him doing sorcery) had nothing to do with Ajokli. All Kellhus magic all the way.

Kellhus has learned so much about sorcery that he has developed some magics that are, more or less, indistinguishable from the world.

That's got a whole lot of implications.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Madness on August 16, 2017, 04:25:44 pm
It's difficult for me to fathom - excepting Thing called Sarcellus' points regarding e-tone in the Building Better Communities (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=2270.0) thread - why these conversations degenerate so.

I will divulge everything up to, including, and probably surpassing everything everyone else shares. As anyone who knows me, knows that I think I do anything that I type, say, or share a disservice because apparently any information coming from me is somehow tainted.

I will be typing up a transcript of most of what is recorded. I won't be sharing audio recordings unless Bakker gives his say so. That simple.

Zaudunyannicon wasn't a failure, it was just something for fun and if you had that then it was a success :)
However, the "come next year" logic is flawed. As not everyone is a millionaire who lives in the house next to Bakker and have infinite free time.

It's a joke from Zaudunyanicon, Redeagl. There's no guarantee we'll ever pull this off again and I've given months of advance warning, even if Bakker didn't confirm online, publicly, until a number of weeks ago (despite my consistent nagging) yet a large number of readers decided that the perpetual "Next Year" was a better time to get on board.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Sausuna on August 16, 2017, 04:37:39 pm
Sorry not current in this thread. Did anyone mention meta-meta-gnostic sorcery yet? Basically Super Saiyan 3.

Is this an actual (theoretical) thing?

Well, I don't see why not.  I mean, there shouldn't be a theoretical limit to how many things you don't say.

Of course, there is a practical limit to those by individual, but who knows what it would be...

I was being kinda tongue-in-cheek with the description, but apparently Kellhus' "markless" magic - like him levitating at the last whelming (Kelmomas said he couldn't see him doing sorcery) had nothing to do with Ajokli. All Kellhus magic all the way.

Kellhus has learned so much about sorcery that he has developed some magics that are, more or less, indistinguishable from the world.

That's got a whole lot of implications.
I wonder what he might have learned had he spent time searching into the Uncreated Creation that The Artisan was long looking into.

And really, sometimes I think Shaeonanra could have learned a lot if he spent his time studying the Amiolas. The description of it in the glossary makes one wonder the effect of putting it on a being without a soul.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Wilshire on August 16, 2017, 04:40:40 pm
Zaudunyannicon wasn't a failure, it was just something for fun and if you had that then it was a success :)
However, the "come next year" logic is flawed. As not everyone is a millionaire who lives in the house next to Bakker and have infinite free time.
While I do enjoy being a strikingly handsome individual who's job is simply to watch my money make little money babies, I hope you know that the 'next year' thing is a mostly a joke (as was the first half of this sentence). It took plenty of efforts to plan and a bit of money to boot, not to mention basically forcing Bakker to show up. In the last 5 years Bakker has been to a total of 2 places for TSA, including Zaudunyanicon, and both were no farther than an afternoon drive form his house.

Hopefully we're able to get him to come out more often, but I'm (we're) nobody, and I think people somehow forget that. We couldn't even afford to pay him for his time. And just like our poorly produced podcasts, I do sincerely hope people get tired of us and decide to make something great. There are fans, I'm sure, that are professional event planers, professional podcasters or youtubers, etc. Unfortunately for you all, you're stuck with me and Madness until you get up and do it yourself. A line cook and a consultant that do this for fun in whatever few hours of free time we have between jobs.

I'm not at all bothered by people wanting more, or disparaging me even, because again I agree that the stuff we do here is a joke. I'm seriously just here to have fun, and I do. But I'm pretty much a selfish jackass. This is what you get with a guy like me (laughably) in charge of this circus.

If we want to spend a bunch of time talking about how much I suck, lets do it, but realize that we already lost the Q/A thread for people attacking Bakker until he left.
Or perhaps the community will choose to suggest we talk about Zaudunyanicon instead, I'll leave it up to you guys (as, again, I did in the Q/A).
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Wilshire on August 16, 2017, 04:45:14 pm
I wonder what he might have learned had he spent time searching into the Uncreated Creation that The Artisan was long looking into.

And really, sometimes I think Shaeonanra could have learned a lot if he spent his time studying the Amiolas. The description of it in the glossary makes one wonder the effect of putting it on a being without a soul.

I was thinking the same thing. Maybe there is magic that can't be undone by chorae, as are some (all?) of Emilidis (spelling) artifacts.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Madness on August 16, 2017, 04:46:51 pm
...

(http://www.prisonfreak.com/foro/images/smilies/121.gif)
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: themerchant on August 16, 2017, 04:49:03 pm
I think both sides might be taking this too personally.

I apologise for my comment about cliques,it was just a joking response to the wording, i'm rarely serious and was also going to make a joke about how 9 out 13 of "us" made it (bakker's dozen).

Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Redeagl on August 16, 2017, 04:49:42 pm
Zaudunyannicon wasn't a failure, it was just something for fun and if you had that then it was a success :)
However, the "come next year" logic is flawed. As not everyone is a millionaire who lives in the house next to Bakker and have infinite free time.
While I do enjoy being a strikingly handsome individual who's job is simply to watch my money make little money babies, I hope you know that the 'next year' thing is a mostly a joke (as was the first half of this sentence). It took plenty of efforts to plan and a bit of money to boot, not to mention basically forcing Bakker to show up. In the last 5 years Bakker has been to a total of 2 places for TSA, including Zaudunyanicon, and both were no farther than an afternoon drive form his house.

Hopefully we're able to get him to come out more often, but I'm (we're) nobody, and I think people somehow forget that. We couldn't even afford to pay him for his time. And just like our poorly produced podcasts, I do sincerely hope people get tired of us and decide to make something great. There are fans, I'm sure, that are professional event planers, professional podcasters or youtubers, etc. Unfortunately for you all, you're stuck with me and Madness until you get up and do it yourself. A line cook and an engineer that do this for fun in whatever few hours of free time we have between jobs.

I'm not at all bothered by people wanting more, or disparaging me even, because again I agree that the stuff we do here is a joke. I'm seriously just here to have fun, and I do. But I'm pretty much a selfish jackass. This is what you get with a guy like me (laughably) in charge of this circus.

If we want to spend a bunch of time talking about how much I suck, lets do it, but realize that we already lost the Q/A thread for people attacking Bakker until he left.
Or perhaps the community will choose to suggest we talk about Zaudunyanicon instead, I'll leave it up to you guys (as, again, I did in the Q/A).
Well, I am a fool for not using my sarcasm detector :(
Wilshire, you underestimate yourself and Madness. While a professional sound engineer Bakker fan may make a better podcast, I would still prefer Madness and Wilshire's broken ones. Why?  Because you have the most important "ingredient" that others will not. Passion for the series, loyalty to the fans.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: themerchant on August 16, 2017, 04:49:56 pm
It will be markless sorcery indistinguishable from creation, the same way emilidis tried to create an object the same way.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Redeagl on August 16, 2017, 04:52:12 pm
I think both sides might be taking this too personally.

I apologise for my comment about cliques,it was just a joking response to the wording, i'm rarely serious and was also going to make a joke about how 9 out 13 of "us" made it (bakker's dozen).
It isn't really a serious discussion, Merchant :) . It's just a joke that went without me noticing and Wilshire kindly explained it.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: themerchant on August 16, 2017, 04:55:34 pm
I think both sides might be taking this too personally.

I apologise for my comment about cliques,it was just a joking response to the wording, i'm rarely serious and was also going to make a joke about how 9 out 13 of "us" made it (bakker's dozen).
It isn't really a serious discussion, Merchant :) . It's just a joke that went without me noticing and Wilshire kindly explained it.

Good :D
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Sausuna on August 16, 2017, 04:56:56 pm
It will be markless sorcery indistinguishable from creation, the same way emilidis tried to create an object the same way.
Which leads into even more interesting lines of thought.
The Psukyhe leaves no mark, yet the users are still vulnerable to Chorae. Whereas some artifacts made by Emilidis are immune to Chorae. Which leaves one to wonder what uniquely about these artifacts allows them to be immune.

I can't recall if his artifacts left the mark as well or not, though I feel like they didn't.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: SmilerLoki on August 16, 2017, 04:57:24 pm
@ Madness, Wilshire

Guys, I really think that you've already done enough. No reason at all to feel bad if some things don't work out or are less than perfect. What we can (and do) have is great. Yet all Men desire more, 'tis a universal truth, but you aren't responsible for sating their thirst. What you do is a courtesy, and I very much appreciate it.

Martin level of community has its many perks, but lacks things possible for smaller groups.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Wilshire on August 16, 2017, 05:05:49 pm
I think both sides might be taking this too personally.

I apologise for my comment about cliques,it was just a joking response to the wording, i'm rarely serious and was also going to make a joke about how 9 out 13 of "us" made it (bakker's dozen).


Jokes on jokes ;)
9/13 is, in fact, pretty good, lol.

And I wasn't fishing for compliments - No kindness on the slog! (but much appreciated anyway)

And 4 responses in that amount of time is an insane amount of participation for us. Good enough for me: further discussion about how handsome and cool I am will be moved to the Building Better Communities thread.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Redeagl on August 16, 2017, 05:09:03 pm
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Wilshire on August 16, 2017, 05:16:41 pm
It will be markless sorcery indistinguishable from creation, the same way emilidis tried to create an object the same way.
Which leads into even more interesting lines of thought.
The Psukyhe leaves no mark, yet the users are still vulnerable to Chorae. Whereas some artifacts made by Emilidis are immune to Chorae. Which leaves one to wonder what uniquely about these artifacts allows them to be immune.

I can't recall if his artifacts left the mark as well or not, though I feel like they didn't.

This reminds me of a one off comment. Titirga, his power, and his weirdly washed out mark, was because he was wielding some version of the Puske.

Give what we know now, how Fane and his teachings are (unfortunately) very far from the truth, I'm going to assume that their 'marklessness' has nothing to do with the Solitary God or their religion.

From that, something important is happening here with this super-gnosis thing, Emilidis, and the psuke. Something about being able to see the Onta allowing sorcery, but blindness allowing you to truly see creation. Something about how a deep intellectual understanding of the world/creation allows you to create truely as the world was created, be it psuke or gnosis.

---
Redeagl, I know you were joking, but I wasn't, so into the thread it went ;) No hard feelings.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: H on August 16, 2017, 05:28:18 pm
I was being kinda tongue-in-cheek with the description, but apparently Kellhus' "markless" magic - like him levitating at the last whelming (Kelmomas said he couldn't see him doing sorcery) had nothing to do with Ajokli. All Kellhus magic all the way.

Kellhus has learned so much about sorcery that he has developed some magics that are, more or less, indistinguishable from the world.

That's got a whole lot of implications.

Well, there really isn't anything to keep Kellhus from spiking the Meta-Gnosis with the Psūkhe, besides the fact that he still has his eyes.  Yet, from the lesson of Titirga, while it helps to be blind in developing the Water, the Psūkhe can still be used while sighted.  Perhaps Kellhus was on the trail of the Psūkhe and in the last encounter with Meppa he discovered the last few things he needed to know in order to wield it.  We simply don't know how things would work together, because no one, besides Kellhus, really knows (much) more than one of the Gnosis/Anagogis/Psūkhe.  Further adding the Daimos complicates things even more so.

Perhaps even Titirga could have devised something like this, had he lived longer.  Then again, he didn't have the Meta-Gnosis, so we don't know how many "inutterals" he could muster.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Gnostic Cants on August 16, 2017, 05:33:51 pm

- "Kellhus is dead but not done."


Wonder if Bakker is seeding this idea with his talk about "Gin'yursis" becoming a Ciphrang. Or if Kellhus' head was the decapitant he put on Malowebi's body (I don't think the latter is true, but it's an outside thought I've had).

Also, about halos -- in the tower, we see holograms at work (with the No-God return masquerading as Kellhus transcendent)... wondering if Kellhus figure out something similar. The floating without using sorcery piece strikes me as similar.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Sausuna on August 16, 2017, 05:36:16 pm
I was being kinda tongue-in-cheek with the description, but apparently Kellhus' "markless" magic - like him levitating at the last whelming (Kelmomas said he couldn't see him doing sorcery) had nothing to do with Ajokli. All Kellhus magic all the way.

Kellhus has learned so much about sorcery that he has developed some magics that are, more or less, indistinguishable from the world.

That's got a whole lot of implications.

Well, there really isn't anything to keep Kellhus from spiking the Meta-Gnosis with the Psūkhe, besides the fact that he still has his eyes.  Yet, from the lesson of Titirga, while it helps to be blind in developing the Water, the Psūkhe can still be used while sighted.  Perhaps Kellhus was on the trail of the Psūkhe and in the last encounter with Meppa he discovered the last few things he needed to know in order to wield it.  We simply don't know how things would work together, because no one, besides Kellhus, really knows (much) more than one of the Gnosis/Anagogis/Psūkhe.  Further adding the Daimos complicates things even more so.

Perhaps even Titirga could have devised something like this, had he lived longer.  Then again, he didn't have the Meta-Gnosis, so we don't know how many "inutterals" he could muster.
Well, the biggest issue with Kellhus using the Psūkhe would be the same issue Moėnghus has, no?

Whenever I thought about Titirga, I always figured he was using aspects of the Psūkhe by accident. That he using the Gnosis while adding in his passion semi-learned from his youthful period of blindness. 
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: codebread on August 16, 2017, 06:40:16 pm
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Wilshire on August 16, 2017, 06:42:29 pm
Kellhus is much more than his father, but that's not the point. He isn't wielding the psuke as the Cishaurim would have understood it. First, he's not blind, but beyond that he likely (imo) is doing something with his understanding of creation more similar to Emilidis than Moenghus.

Then again, if its straight psuke, levitating a meter above the ground isn't something I'd call an exceptional dispensation of power. Perhaps it is the puske, and he is limited to part tricks like making his voice loud and floating a cubit off the ground.

---
Thanks codebread. Moved to the other post ;) .
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Gnostic Cants on August 16, 2017, 06:50:08 pm
The epic tale of how Crabicus/the Boy will save the World single-handedly? ;)

I guffawed out loud at the pun here. I share an office with two other people, who happened to be talking to two other people in here. They all looked at me like I'm crazy (I've had my headphones on, trying to ignore them and look like I'm working and not reading all of Bakker's AMA posts).

Anyway, thanks for the clever post TOT.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on August 16, 2017, 07:02:36 pm
The epic tale of how Crabicus/the Boy will save the World single-handedly? ;)

I guffawed out loud at the pun here. I share an office with two other people, who happened to be talking to two other people in here. They all looked at me like I'm crazy (I've had my headphones on, trying to ignore them and look like I'm working and not reading all of Bakker's AMA posts).

Anyway, thanks for the clever post TOT.

You're welcome, Gnostic Cants. I couldn't resist, puns make everything better, TSA included. :P Sorry about that one slight moment of embarrassment, though.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Sausuna on August 16, 2017, 07:07:27 pm
Kellhus is much more than his father, but that's not the point. He isn't wielding the psuke as the Cishaurim would have understood it. First, he's not blind, but beyond that he likely (imo) is doing something with his understanding of creation more similar to Emilidis than Moenghus.

Then again, if its straight psuke, levitating a meter above the ground isn't something I'd call an exceptional dispensation of power. Perhaps it is the puske, and he is limited to part tricks like making his voice loud and floating a cubit off the ground.

---
Thanks codebread. Moved to the other post ;) .
Do expressions of the Psūkhe inherently cause glowing eyes/mouth and singing? I honestly can't recall. Not to say this can't be some other unique expression of markless magic he does. But I just find the idea that it directly relates to the Psūkhe to seem hard to fit in.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Wilshire on August 16, 2017, 07:11:28 pm
A glowing forehead, I do believe, not mouth and eyes.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Gnostic Cants on August 16, 2017, 07:32:50 pm
The epic tale of how Crabicus/the Boy will save the World single-handedly? ;)

I guffawed out loud at the pun here. I share an office with two other people, who happened to be talking to two other people in here. They all looked at me like I'm crazy (I've had my headphones on, trying to ignore them and look like I'm working and not reading all of Bakker's AMA posts).

Anyway, thanks for the clever post TOT.

You're welcome, Gnostic Cants. I couldn't resist, puns make everything better, TSA included. :P Sorry about that one slight moment of embarrassment, though.

As small price to pay, friend.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: codebread on August 16, 2017, 08:46:05 pm
Bakker was nonplussed by the name Crabbicus, and he seemed almost offended that we've starting calling the first book of TNG The Crabiqiad.

Yeah, he didn't like that at all... but it's such a good name and consistent with Bakker's words so far about TNG. You can't call it the Sagas, tell us the Crabicus' story might be a whole book, and then not have us use the naming conventions provided to us so far.

I'll bet it's a McCarthy thing: the Boy was to rename Nameless, I suppose.


Hearing Bakker's reactions to this stuff is fascinating to me. I wonder if he's kicking himself for not making things more clear in retrospect, or if he's upset that we have the gall to name and theorize like that.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Woden on August 16, 2017, 08:50:43 pm
I find this totally amusing (begging Bakker pardon for that).
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Wilshire on August 17, 2017, 11:39:48 am
"nonplussed" - more like totally disgusted at the mere thought of 'crabicus', which pail then compounded with 'crabiciad' for the title. A bit of merriment at Bakker's expense.

And yes, I believe the nameless child is supposed to remain nameless.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: themerchant on August 17, 2017, 01:37:56 pm
Well in TGO there was all this stuff about even Dunyain being "born on a path" so therefore they just follow the path (through Koringhus PoV), with crabicus he has no path, Koringhus told him everything he taught him was a lie. So i imagine Bakker will riff with that.

Obviously Bakker's point is more nuanced than not being on a path anymore.

Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Hand of Yawgmoth on August 17, 2017, 02:47:40 pm
I don't think any Nascenti have brought this up:

There were a couple deleted scenes from TGO's bacchanal where the Mandate schoolmen believed they were Seswatha. We see it happen first with Saccarees, and then it spreads to the rest of them who have partaken of the feast. Eskales is made temporary grand-master (as was apparently planned from early on), and he is among the few who fasted rather than partake in the Meat.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Madness on August 17, 2017, 03:00:48 pm
I don't think any Nascenti have brought this up:

There were a couple deleted scenes from TGO's bacchanal where the Mandate schoolmen believed they were Seswatha. We see it happen first with Saccarees, and then it spreads to the rest of them who have partaken of the feast. Eskales is made temporary grand-master (as was apparently planned from early on), and he is among the few who fasted rather than partake in the Meat.

Indeed. MG reading them to us late-night Saturday was great... his damn sweet, preacher-like, sermon-lending voice ;).

There's also a small Seswatha scene that was subtly changed from TGO draft to TGO canon artifact - though Wilshire is the only one who can share as I bequeathed him my draft for the coffers (which all of TSAs treasures are now signed!).
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Redeagl on August 17, 2017, 03:18:19 pm
I think deleted scenes won't be canon.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: MSJ on August 17, 2017, 03:21:48 pm
Quote from:  Madness
I feel like there was a pretty extensive conversation regarding morality on Friday night. One great line that got a laugh, I think, was "Would you ask Mohammad to rewrite the Quran?

Yea, I would be a little pissed with alot of people's reaction as well. I was about to post a long post at Westeros when Redeagl was fighting away, its just not worth the effort or the inevitable fighting afterwards.

But, before I even began TDCTB back in 11'-12', I knew of or at least seen TSTSNBN being used in Bakker threads. So, before I even read the series, I knew there was a 3rd series already planned. Everyone seems to forget this somehow.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Madness on August 17, 2017, 03:32:26 pm
I think deleted scenes won't be canon.

Of course they aren't, which is why Wilshire has long-admonished me not to talk about them and why I go through pains to forget them. We debate the canonical texts as everyone has them.

Though, this becomes complicates, as the Nascenti learned, when Bakker himself asked to have the italics sections of Neuropath removed from one printing to another...

...

...

Yeah... as someone who watched it happen over the years, the evidence is a post and Bakker comment on TPB describing himself as "completing the story" as he saw it at seventeen. Somehow those two one-offs have overcome all the other comments Bakker made over the years preceding and thereafter regarding The-Book-That-Shall-Not-Be-Named, then The-Series-That-Shall-Not-Be-Named.

If nothing else, I think I can say the Nascenti came away from Zaudunyanicon expecting the story to be just as awesome and dense and convoluted as we're used to, if only now trusting the Greater Bakker rather than the Lesser Bakker to tell it and shepherd us through The Second Apocalypse.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Madness on August 17, 2017, 03:35:37 pm
@ Madness, Wilshire

Guys, I really think that you've already done enough. No reason at all to feel bad if some things don't work out or are less than perfect. What we can (and do) have is great. Yet all Men desire more, 'tis a universal truth, but you aren't responsible for sating their thirst. What you do is a courtesy, and I very much appreciate it.

Martin level of community has its many perks, but lacks things possible for smaller groups.

Thanks, SmilerLoki :).
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Wilshire on August 17, 2017, 03:52:45 pm
I think deleted scenes won't be canon.
By definition even, something that was removed from the story prior to its publication is explicitly not canon.

But that said, we write our own realities ;) . The fact of the matter is that there are words from outside the published text that we use to interpret the world. Be them our own words, other posters here, those in Bakker's confidece like Wert, Bakker himself, and even deleted scenes.

As an example, The Rape of Omindale has had significant impacts of our understand of the Anasurimbor family and has cast new light and new shadows on the story for years. Is it canon? I'd argue that its not, but that doesn't stop it from being important to some, vital even for the understanding of  how the greater Earwa world works.

And since the proverbial cat is out of its sorcerous-shielding-anasurimbor/yatwer-bag, here goes. Feel free to ignore my musings on bits of text that might not even exist ;)
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Baztek on August 17, 2017, 06:39:49 pm
Wait, wait, so the Fanim are among the most wrong? Tbh I considered them the one safe harbor in the ocean of crackpottery, and now I just don't know what to think anymore.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Wilshire on August 17, 2017, 06:44:22 pm
Wait, wait, so the Fanim are among the most wrong? Tbh I considered them the one safe harbor in the ocean of crackpottery, and now I just don't know what to think anymore.
Yeah sorry man. I always thought that, since they clearly lost, that they'd end up on the 'right' end of the spectrum.
This is apparently not the case.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Rots on August 17, 2017, 07:15:59 pm
Thanks for the info and reflections from Zaudunyanicon. Im sure it would hvae been interesting to see things through my own eyes. Subject/object, and all that. Sometimes being a Bakker fan is a slog - he does not endear himself or make it easy and that is obviously perfectly fine as he can do what he wants. Im still, to use a term in this thread, nonplussed about TUC and i dont see that changing. If nothing else its simply a bad title and doesnt jive w/the material in the way that hte other 6 titles and books do, imho.

Also, shocked that hes shocked that the editing is so poor. Doesnt he get a production copy of the book before anyone? The editing was basically atrocious for TUC. Regardless, good job @Madness & Wilshire for setting this up. impressive work recruiting a recalcitrant Bakker to come out and press the flesh a little.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Wilshire on August 17, 2017, 07:27:21 pm
Im sure it would hvae been interesting to see things through my own eyes.
It always is.

Subject/object, and all that. Sometimes being a Bakker fan is a slog - he does not endear himself or make it easy and that is obviously perfectly fine as he can do what he wants.
I'm of the opinion that his skill at getting in his own way is without equal. A sharpshooter when aiming at his foot.
It would be great if he was more available, but he's no Lawrence or Abercrombie so we're stuck with what we got lol.

Im still, to use a term in this thread, nonplussed about TUC and i dont see that changing.
...
Also, shocked that hes shocked that the editing is so poor. Doesnt he get a production copy of the book before anyone? The editing was basically atrocious for TUC.

We joked about him having a kind of 'battered wife' syndrome regarding his relationship with Overlook. He seems to think they can do no wrong, and has never looked for a better offer (imo, for fear of rejection).
He did comment specifically on not reading the 'final print'. By the time it hits the shelves, he's had to read the final manuscript several times already, let alone all the hours he has spent writing and re-writing. He was fairly enraged at realizing none of the line edits that we handed him, that he subsequently spent time correcting, didn't make it into the book.

But I suspect nothing will change. He'll call Overlook, get blown off, back-justify that it was somehow his mistake, and we'll have Overlook again for the next books. This already happened with TGO, and it got worse in TUC, so I suspect we're still at the top of the slide.

Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Sausuna on August 17, 2017, 08:02:46 pm
If nothing else its simply a bad title and doesnt jive w/the material in the way that hte other 6 titles and books do, imho.
What would you have named it? Seemed fitting enough to me compared to the other titles.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Wolfdrop on August 17, 2017, 09:11:09 pm
Did he give a reason for the Mandate scenes being removed?

I missed Eskeles in TGO, and him appearing so emmaciated without anything prior seemed a bit...off? And he changed from Thanteus Eskeles to Teüs in TUC.

They would have been awesome additions to TGO and TUC.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Hand of Yawgmoth on August 17, 2017, 09:23:36 pm
Did he give a reason for the Mandate scenes being removed?

I missed Eskeles in TGO, and him appearing so emmaciated without anything prior seemed a bit...off? And he changed from Thanteus Eskeles to Teüs in TUC.

They would have been awesome additions to TGO and TUC.

He had to trim things down, and he decided that those scenes didn't do enough to serve the story. (I see his point and think he could have done with cutting a little more of Agongorea, but those particular scenes really pulled their weight).

Teus is just a short form of Thanteus, though that is a strange thing to do for a family name.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Redeagl on August 17, 2017, 11:58:21 pm
That was a damn epic scene. The mandate being Seswatha and all. Thanks for that Wilshire and Madness. Btw, about the canon argument: I just meant not to take the deleted scenes are confirmed, since they didn't really happen. But it is a nice bonus to get.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Wolfdrop on August 18, 2017, 10:22:00 am
Quote
Teus is just a short form of Thanteus, though that is a strange thing to do for a family name.

I thought that too, just seems weird that it's the only instance in the entire series I can remember where the dimunuitive has been derived from their family name.

Proyas - Prosha
Cnaiur - Nayu
Achamian - Akka
Esmenet - Esmi
Mimara - Mim
Eskeles - ...Teus?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: themerchant on August 18, 2017, 11:52:26 am
I knew it had happened as Saccarees tells Akka it's the reason that no one that touched Ses's heart knew who they were, they all thought they were seswatha. So they couldn't explain about the cure for sranc ingestion. Akka asks him why he didn't tell everyone.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: H on August 18, 2017, 11:57:58 am
Isn't the "Seswatha incident" yet another instance where Akka's likening of the soul opening to the Outside under the duress of madness seems factual?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: SmilerLoki on August 18, 2017, 12:00:55 pm
Isn't the "Seswatha incident" yet another instance where Akka's likening of the soul opening to the Outside under the duress of madness seems factual?
I'm of the opinion that the mechanics of Seswatha's heart and the ritual associated with it are very deliberately not elaborated upon at all in the series. There is a revelation there, but it's extremely hard to speculate about its nature, since relevant information is basically non-existent.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Rots on August 18, 2017, 12:03:11 pm
We joked about him having a kind of 'battered wife' syndrome regarding his relationship with Overlook. He seems to think they can do no wrong, and has never looked for a better offer (imo, for fear of rejection).

This is unfortunate. As i get older i see that all of us, regardless of intellect or education level, is susceptible to a legion
of doubts and irrationalities.

What would you have named it? Seemed fitting enough to me compared to the other titles.

The Horns of Golgotterath - Denotes that all the action is in the Ark but doesnt tease out the Consult in a way that
was never delivered upon, again, imho

[EDIT Madness: Fixed quote tags.]
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: themerchant on August 18, 2017, 01:47:42 pm
Isn't the "Seswatha incident" yet another instance where Akka's likening of the soul opening to the Outside under the duress of madness seems factual?

It does seem that way. I take it we're talking about the scene were cnaiur recollects akka taking a piece of parchment and putting holes on it and laying it on water? Cnaiur discards it cause Kellhus seems to contradict it all. But then Kellhus was probably wrong as Koringhus muses.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: H on August 18, 2017, 02:43:11 pm
It does seem that way. I take it we're talking about the scene were cnaiur recollects akka taking a piece of parchment and putting holes on it and laying it on water? Cnaiur discards it cause Kellhus seems to contradict it all. But then Kellhus was probably wrong as Koringhus muses.

Yeah, that's the one.

And Kellhus is mad, we know this.  He even admits it.  He simply can't fathom how mad he is, mainly because he is mad.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Wilshire on August 18, 2017, 03:10:24 pm
It does seem that way. I take it we're talking about the scene were cnaiur recollects akka taking a piece of parchment and putting holes on it and laying it on water? Cnaiur discards it cause Kellhus seems to contradict it all. But then Kellhus was probably wrong as Koringhus muses.

Yeah, that's the one.

And Kellhus is mad, we know this.  He even admits it.  He simply can't fathom how mad he is, mainly because he is mad.

Isn't there some quote as well that mentions how the mad always think themselves sane?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: H on August 18, 2017, 04:10:53 pm
Isn't there some quote as well that mentions how the mad always think themselves sane?

Quote
“Some souls are broken in such a way as to think themselves whole,” he said. “The more they are flawed, the more they presume their own perfection.”

Kellhus to little Kel in chapter 1 of TUC.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Wilshire on August 18, 2017, 05:01:50 pm
You're great H :) , thank you.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: pail on August 18, 2017, 07:57:18 pm
Some more nuggets that may not have been posted yet:

Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Woden on August 18, 2017, 08:24:25 pm
Wow, very interesting.

Any hint if "The Crabiqiad" (lol) will be all devoted to Crabby or will have a glimpse at least of what happened to the others?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: pail on August 18, 2017, 09:07:37 pm
Any hint if "The Crabiqiad" (lol) will be all devoted to Crabby or will have a glimpse at least of what happened to the others?

My understanding is that it's just Crabby. In fact, Bakker actually said the other reason he wants to make Crabiqiad the first book is how much it will piss off people who are waiting for a follow-up to the ending of TUC.

Though, this becomes complicates, as the Nascenti learned, when Bakker himself asked to have the italics sections of Neuropath removed from one printing to another...

What I understood from Bakker was slightly different: Not that he wanted the section removed, but that the publisher wanted a "lighter" book so he consented to having the italic section and the afterword removed in order for them to buy it.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Woden on August 18, 2017, 09:15:30 pm
Any hint if "The Crabiqiad" (lol) will be all devoted to Crabby or will have a glimpse at least of what happened to the others?

My understanding is that it's just Crabby. In fact, Bakker actually said the other reason he wants to make Crabiqiad the first book is how much it will piss off people who are waiting for a follow-up to the ending of TUC.

HAHAHA. What a wicked sense of humor.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: solipsisticurge on August 18, 2017, 09:48:35 pm
Perhaps Kellhus' interest in the Psukhe liesi n breaking it apart and analyzing it more so than directly wielding it, knowing the inherent Dunyain limitations with it. It's entirely possible that Fane stumbled upon a sorcery approved of by the gods through feeling, despite his intellectual analysis of the World's metaphysics failing to hit the mark.

Given Bakker's comment that the World is conscious and the Outside unconscious, and comments elsewhere that the Gods despise premeditation (seemingly favoring going with emotion rather than rationality in any pursuit), it wouldn't surprise me that the Psukhe, based on feeling, harbors some truth of the Outside independent of Fane's rational, thought-out doctrine concerning it. Kellhus could well have been exploring a way to subvert this, to hide thought as emotion or some such, and needed to pick apart the Psukhe to see precisely when in its process it is either hidden from or approved by the divine.

Could it also be more timey-wimey bullshit? Does the Water, or emotion itself, somehow lie outside of eternity as perceived by the Gods? (The latter I consider less likely, as the Gods are far from blind to motivations and emotional states. "Judge us according to our temptations," and all that.)

All of this would require Kellhus to give a damn about damnation, which remains to be seen.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: solipsisticurge on August 18, 2017, 09:51:02 pm
Quote
    Bakker actually said the other reason he wants to make Crabiqiad the first book is how much it will piss off people who are waiting for a follow-up to the ending of TUC.

Possibly the most Bakker thing ever, though I do agree that putting his tale at the end of the series if he plays no crucial role in the resolution of the Second Apocalypse would render it an afterthought. Perhaps an "interquel" within the series, so as not to give the finger to fans who've slogged this far?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Woden on August 18, 2017, 09:59:03 pm
It seems that "The Crabiqiad" would send our mighty hero Crabby far away of the theatre of the rest of events. Maybe Crabby is going to Zeüm, curse Likaro.
If not, why don't put Crabby and the rest together as in TAE series? why separate them at all?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: solipsisticurge on August 19, 2017, 01:10:33 am
It seems that "The Crabiqiad" would send our mighty hero Crabby far away of the theatre of the rest of events. Maybe Crabby is going to Zeüm, curse Likaro.
If not, why don't put Crabby and the rest together as in TAE series? why separate them at all?

As Zeum will have an important role to play, and Crabicus will apparently not, this seems contradictory.

More likely to my mind he bolts toward Eanna, which got a RAFO but no firm statement of importance to the next series. It would also be the most logical direction if one wished to fuck off and avoid the whole Apocalypse travail, which seems to be Crabby's basic take on strategy at this point.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Yellow on August 19, 2017, 07:10:05 am
Any hint if "The Crabiqiad" (lol) will be all devoted to Crabby or will have a glimpse at least of what happened to the others?

My understanding is that it's just Crabby. In fact, Bakker actually said the other reason he wants to make Crabiqiad the first book is how much it will piss off people who are waiting for a follow-up to the ending of TUC.

As much as I trust Bakker's ability to write an interesting tale, I just don't find Crabicus interesting. I hope he doesn't go so OTT-Bakkerish in his impishness that he writes a disconnected story that holds no significance to the wider story, or his series will suffer as a result of it. Pissing people off is fine (even me :P), but I hope he doesn't do the series a disservice.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Woden on August 19, 2017, 07:18:15 am
I agree, if Crabicus story is totally unrelated with the second apocalypse it's less interesting to me.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Madness on August 19, 2017, 04:04:43 pm
...

Thank, pail :).

What I understood from Bakker was slightly different: Not that he wanted the section removed, but that the publisher wanted a "lighter" book so he consented to having the italic section and the afterword removed in order for them to buy it.

Thanks for posting this, pail.

Any hint if "The Crabiqiad" (lol) will be all devoted to Crabby or will have a glimpse at least of what happened to the others?

My understanding is that it's just Crabby. In fact, Bakker actually said the other reason he wants to make Crabiqiad the first book is how much it will piss off people who are waiting for a follow-up to the ending of TUC.

As much as I trust Bakker's ability to write an interesting tale, I just don't find Crabicus interesting. I hope he doesn't go so OTT-Bakkerish in his impishness that he writes a disconnected story that holds no significance to the wider story, or his series will suffer as a result of it. Pissing people off is fine (even me :P), but I hope he doesn't do the series a disservice.

I suppose I can hint the Crabiqiad does include a number of other established loose ends. Classic Bakker promotion. The story is much less disconnected from events as he seems to think and other narrative strands might not be as limited in scope or word count as he made seem.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: codebread on August 19, 2017, 04:28:03 pm
That's good to hear, Madness.

I'm very interested in the Kellhus / Ajokli revelation. It's nice to have it confirmed that the Circumfixion was the root of Kellhus' madness and undoing. Was anything else revealed about the nature of the Kellhus / Ajokli relationship?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Woden on August 19, 2017, 04:34:04 pm
...

Thank, pail :).

What I understood from Bakker was slightly different: Not that he wanted the section removed, but that the publisher wanted a "lighter" book so he consented to having the italic section and the afterword removed in order for them to buy it.

Thanks for posting this, pail.

Any hint if "The Crabiqiad" (lol) will be all devoted to Crabby or will have a glimpse at least of what happened to the others?

My understanding is that it's just Crabby. In fact, Bakker actually said the other reason he wants to make Crabiqiad the first book is how much it will piss off people who are waiting for a follow-up to the ending of TUC.

As much as I trust Bakker's ability to write an interesting tale, I just don't find Crabicus interesting. I hope he doesn't go so OTT-Bakkerish in his impishness that he writes a disconnected story that holds no significance to the wider story, or his series will suffer as a result of it. Pissing people off is fine (even me :P), but I hope he doesn't do the series a disservice.

I suppose I can hint the Crabiqiad does include a number of other established loose ends. Classic Bakker promotion. The story is much less disconnected from events as he seems to think and other narrative strands might not be as limited in scope or word count as he made seem.

Excellent.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Ciogli on August 20, 2017, 02:17:35 am
The one thing that kind of concerns me is the length of the story, if the entirety of the second apocalypse can contained within one book than that is disappointing. The second apocalypse is the true story we have been waiting on this entire time, the story literally starts with the first apocalypse and the remnants of the Kuniuri in Ishual. The first apocalypse took over a decade to run its course, earlier Bakker was talking about how the story mirror each other and so I was hoping the second apocalypse would be as long as the first. I was thinking that the No-God series should be as long as the other two series combined, the PON is the story of the Holy War, the AE is the story of the Great Ordeal, both of these conflicts were little more than a year long. So is was thinking the No-God would be more books than each of the preceding series.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Yellow on August 20, 2017, 10:03:40 am
While I'm not particularly bothered about it in the way you are, I think on the AMA Bakker said something about it being 2,3 or more books. So he hasn't actually devoted yet and you may get your wish!

I think it'll probably come down to whether a publisher wants to pay him to do it.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Madness on August 20, 2017, 12:59:50 pm
I think the uncertainty on his part arises from stylistic choices he has yet to make.

I think if money wasn't an object - even in part - that he knows how he wants to write TNG. But some sort of compromise is necessary should he desire economic success.

It actually surprises me that he is as daunted as he seems by the story going forward, especially given some juicier parts of Friday/Saturday (at least regarding what I was fixating on as salient). I think he's got a perfectly good tale - like PON/TAE respectively - that he can chop into an interwoven story.

Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Madness on August 20, 2017, 01:09:46 pm
Oh - and another thing.

I made a "I've watched too many shitty horror b-movies" comment in TUC subforum regarding the violence in TUC not bothering me, like at all (which is awful because Bakker put me on "obscenity patrol" - though as mentioned in-thread, the Ordeal Bacchanal chapters were cut down considerably on the recommendations of a long-time beta reader (not me, I'm new)).

Bakker mentioned on Friday night that his wife and him love watching horror b-movies and I died when he was talking about the one where the guy wants to/is forced to eat another guy's dick...
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: TLEILAXU on August 20, 2017, 09:19:44 pm
Ajokli had no relationship with Kellhus prior to the Circumfixion. It was at the Circumfixion that Kellhus's mind was broken down close enough to madness that the Outside was able to slip in. Unless the timelessness of the Gods allows Ajokli's influence to extend back in time, this implies Kellhus's haloes are NOT related to Ajokli![/li][/list]
Did Bakker himself imply this or is this how you interpret it? Interesting nonetheless. I always assumed it was something produced by the divine agency puppeteering him. What could it then be?

The No-God series will contain 1-2 books which follow up on what happens in the Three Seas following the resurrection of the No-God. The other book will be the story of Crabicus (obviously, this book will be known as The Crabiqiad). This will most likely be the first book in the No-God. He wasn't sure about the order, but he was leaning this way because if he finished the story of the Three Seas first, it would make the story of Crabicus feel like an extra tale tacked on to the end of a complete series. These details made it sound, to me, like Crabicus will not have a major role in the fate of the world, which will play out in the other one or two books.

The one thing that kind of concerns me is the length of the story, if the entirety of the second apocalypse can contained within one book than that is disappointing. The second apocalypse is the true story we have been waiting on this entire time, the story literally starts with the first apocalypse and the remnants of the Kuniuri in Ishual. The first apocalypse took over a decade to run its course, earlier Bakker was talking about how the story mirror each other and so I was hoping the second apocalypse would be as long as the first. I was thinking that the No-God series should be as long as the other two series combined, the PON is the story of the Holy War, the AE is the story of the Great Ordeal, both of these conflicts were little more than a year long. So is was thinking the No-God would be more books than each of the preceding series.
So if the stories are mirrors of each other, maybe Crabicus will encounter some kind of sect in the middle of the Apocalypse as his young forefather did all those years ago...
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Redeagl on August 21, 2017, 12:27:37 am
Ajokli had no relationship with Kellhus prior to the Circumfixion. It was at the Circumfixion that Kellhus's mind was broken down close enough to madness that the Outside was able to slip in. Unless the timelessness of the Gods allows Ajokli's influence to extend back in time, this implies Kellhus's haloes are NOT related to Ajokli![/li][/list]
Did Bakker himself imply this or is this how you interpret it? Interesting nonetheless. I always assumed it was something produced by the divine agency puppeteering him. What could it then be?

The No-God series will contain 1-2 books which follow up on what happens in the Three Seas following the resurrection of the No-God. The other book will be the story of Crabicus (obviously, this book will be known as The Crabiqiad). This will most likely be the first book in the No-God. He wasn't sure about the order, but he was leaning this way because if he finished the story of the Three Seas first, it would make the story of Crabicus feel like an extra tale tacked on to the end of a complete series. These details made it sound, to me, like Crabicus will not have a major role in the fate of the world, which will play out in the other one or two books.

The one thing that kind of concerns me is the length of the story, if the entirety of the second apocalypse can contained within one book than that is disappointing. The second apocalypse is the true story we have been waiting on this entire time, the story literally starts with the first apocalypse and the remnants of the Kuniuri in Ishual. The first apocalypse took over a decade to run its course, earlier Bakker was talking about how the story mirror each other and so I was hoping the second apocalypse would be as long as the first. I was thinking that the No-God series should be as long as the other two series combined, the PON is the story of the Holy War, the AE is the story of the Great Ordeal, both of these conflicts were little more than a year long. So is was thinking the No-God would be more books than each of the preceding series.
So if the stories are mirrors of each other, maybe Crabicus will encounter some kind of sect in the middle of the Apocalypse as his young forefather did all those years ago...

I LOVE this!
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: solipsisticurge on August 21, 2017, 05:47:23 am
So if the stories are mirrors of each other, maybe Crabicus will encounter some kind of sect in the middle of the Apocalypse as his young forefather did all those years ago...

"As long as men live, there are crimes!"
"No, child," the severed head spoke with wonder, salted Emperor falling from its lips. "Only so long as men serve Likaro."
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: TLEILAXU on August 21, 2017, 12:17:59 pm
PERFECT
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Sausuna on August 21, 2017, 12:28:09 pm
I honestly wouldn't mind Crabbicus not interacting too heavily with the Second Apocalypse proper, as it were, or not being super heavily involved. I always think the Dunyain sections were especially interesting to read and really liked The Survivor's stuff (whose name I can't remember). As long as his intents aren't like a certain other semi-Dunyain child then I think it'll be an interesting read.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: H on August 21, 2017, 12:35:20 pm
So an unnamed kind, lose in a semi-tame, semi-wild setting?

The Crabiqid is Bakker's Blood Meridian.  He will meet Sarl (as the Judge).  Or didn't Bakker say that Kosoter isn't done yet?  Then he is the Judge.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: solipsisticurge on August 22, 2017, 07:49:30 am
So an unnamed kind, lose in a semi-tame, semi-wild setting?

The Crabiqid is Bakker's Blood Meridian.  He will meet Sarl (as the Judge).  Or didn't Bakker say that Kosoter isn't done yet?  Then he is the Judge.

If this isn't how it actually plays out, I vote we crowdfund Bakker writing this as an alternate story.

I honestly wouldn't mind Crabbicus not interacting too heavily with the Second Apocalypse proper, as it were, or not being super heavily involved. I always think the Dunyain sections were especially interesting to read and really liked The Survivor's stuff (whose name I can't remember). As long as his intents aren't like a certain other semi-Dunyain child then I think it'll be an interesting read.

It would be interesting to see an intellect that profound, but untrained and not set down the predetermined Dunyain course, take stock of the world as-is and begin to make alterations as able. What motivates a Dunyain not trained toward domination and mastery of circumstance?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Madness on August 22, 2017, 05:54:32 pm
As per Bakkerfans:

(https://scontent-yyz1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-0/s600x600/20953741_1990158627922185_4352959388037247938_n.jpg?oh=9975df35f2a678d8f3dd284ca291c665&oe=5A1959E2)
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Woden on August 22, 2017, 06:11:57 pm
Omg. Excellent.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: pail on August 23, 2017, 01:56:43 am
- "Kellhus is dead but not done."

To elaborate further: Bakker confirmed that Kellhus is dead but he is not in the Outside.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Woden on August 23, 2017, 06:45:57 am
Truly? He could be in the Outside and not done too.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Madness on August 23, 2017, 02:32:48 pm
(https://scontent-ort2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/20992658_1990491094555605_2249475503007077756_n.jpg?oh=d9eddeca0265e02c40323b49481ead7d&oe=5A5F3764)

A personalized The Court of Broken Knives (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/32469783-the-court-of-broken-knives) from Anna Smith Spark presented to Bakker at Zaudunyanicon.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Madness on August 25, 2017, 01:43:52 pm
The (Now Signed) Somnambulist poster's and Somnambulist/Thing called Sarcellus patches going out to the winners of the giveaway!:

(https://scontent-yyz1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/21034450_1990894804515234_9066925676846953789_n.jpg?oh=28a6b0c4a6c180352ad0542bcceb5821&oe=5A27643D)

(https://scontent-yyz1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/20992642_1990894797848568_406609943786184459_n.jpg?oh=af5b0bd2cc74d62974d8dba4535e4656&oe=5A17326D)

(https://scontent-yyz1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/21032783_1990894801181901_8034302348273329167_n.jpg?oh=651b1e5bba92590e5443ab4276b93589&oe=5A189775)

(https://scontent-yyz1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/20953965_1990894837848564_2617854689824295435_n.jpg?oh=9ee263bc5a706748d5ac1b1cb5a72af3&oe=5A2F788F)

Bakker and Wilshire's Coffers! - minus his 1st/1sts of Disciple of the Dog and Neuropath? (And their corresponding ARCs?) Also guest appearence by William R's The Vulgar Holy War prototype:

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Madness on August 27, 2017, 04:05:39 pm
(https://scontent-yyz1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/21150430_1992152187722829_789217756150341115_n.jpg?oh=9f88f91f714cf6a41ba3a9928d3cc03e&oe=5A25C488)

MG!
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Duskweaver on August 28, 2017, 11:33:07 am
Is that Serwa just to the right, there? :P
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Wilshire on August 28, 2017, 04:41:33 pm
Is that Serwa just to the right, there? :P

Obviously the physical model he used to developed the character description, and just as obviously not the intellectual model. [Edit: Wait, Serwe or Serwa? I literally always get the names messed up. Either way, Mrs. Bakker is a lovely and intelligent lady *foot-in-mouth moment*.].
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Woden on August 28, 2017, 05:43:10 pm
Can we expect some metagnosis in the next Zaudunyanicon? :P
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Madness on August 28, 2017, 10:13:01 pm
Is that Serwa just to the right, there? :P

Either way, Mrs. Bakker is a lovely and intelligent lady.

Big ol' +1. Also, we wouldn't have Bakker's writing at all if she didn't support him so she's the real MVP.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Duskweaver on August 29, 2017, 01:27:24 pm
For the record, I did mean Serwa. I assumed she was responsible for all those Surillic Points floating up near the ceiling... ;)
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: themerchant on August 29, 2017, 02:13:12 pm
(https://scontent-ort2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/20992658_1990491094555605_2249475503007077756_n.jpg?oh=d9eddeca0265e02c40323b49481ead7d&oe=5A5F3764)

A personalized The Court of Broken Knives (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/32469783-the-court-of-broken-knives) from Anna Smith Spark presented to Bakker at Zaudunyanicon.

What's the significance of Bakker signing that particular book, is the author a forum member? Also should i be reading the book?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: MSJ on August 29, 2017, 02:34:15 pm
Facebook member, and yes you should read it. 1st in a trilogy, I enjoyed it.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Madness on August 29, 2017, 05:34:20 pm
For the record, I did mean Serwa. I assumed she was responsible for all those Surillic Points floating up near the ceiling... ;)

Just MG's terrible angle on reality - The J.J. Abrams of Zaudunyanicon Photographers ;).

What's the significance of Bakker signing that particular book, is the author a forum member? Also should i be reading the book?

Facebook member, and yes you should read it. 1st in a trilogy, I enjoyed it.

I was going to say, I know that Redeagl and MSJ enjoyed it and H didn't so much.

The author is a member of the Grimdark Fiction Readers & Writers group on Facebook, apparently has industry connections from heaven as her recent appearances with a variety of Fantasy icons at Worldcon suggests, and counts Bakker a primary influences regarding her own writing.

Today's Zaudunyanicon morsel:

(https://scontent-yyz1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/21192286_1993091694295545_4800751542981327029_n.png?oh=a1857faac2df71f8994bc3149c66712c&oe=5A5F6CE0)

Bakker and me! Gall, do I look stupid clean-shaven and without my requisite "Who Are The Dunyain?" snap-back..
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Madness on September 02, 2017, 06:02:03 pm
(https://scontent-yyz1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/21230983_1994935557444492_2024900638076630156_n.jpg?oh=7076bb711cb860c5bfc1e1c320f3b088&oe=5A154073)

Bakker talking on the Friday night, Tim Horton's in hand. A good portion of the video will be from Friday, no doubt.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Hand of Yawgmoth on September 04, 2017, 12:35:31 am
Bakker is such a big silly Canadian. His "eh" game could use some work, but the Tim Hortons makes up for it.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: MSJ on September 08, 2017, 08:41:19 pm
Quote from:  Madness
I was going to say, I know that Redeagl and MSJ enjoyed it and H didn't so much.

The author is a member of the Grimdark Fiction Readers & Writers group on Facebook, apparently has industry connections from heaven as her recent appearances with a variety of Fantasy icons at Worldcon suggests, and counts Bakker a primary influences regarding her own writing.

I'll admit her book wasn't revolutionary, and had many plot holes and armour. That being said, it has potential. And, when it comes to fantasy I'm not hard to please and think the story has alot of room to grow. Its nothing like Bakker if that's what people are wondering. But, it's got potential and her writing wasn't jarring and kept me interested. 3 1/2 out of 5.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Wolfdrop on September 22, 2017, 09:15:42 am
Was the audio/video of this uploaded somewhere? Or any of the responses for the Q and A?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Wilshire on September 22, 2017, 11:52:33 am
Not yet, or not that I'm aware of. Sorry Wolfdrop, the world conspires against us currently.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Madness on September 23, 2017, 01:36:44 am
Was the audio/video of this uploaded somewhere? Or any of the responses for the Q and A?

We're waiting on audio transcripts to be approved by Bakker. It'll likely be some more weeks at this rate. Straight up audio is likely a no-go, unless the Nascenti want to share their private recordings at their own discretion. Bakker the Brother has basically shelved any video for the time being...

I still have more pictures to share and, while MG, Wilshire, and I seem more busy than "usual," there are six other Nascenti to ping and quiz if you're curious about their Erratic recollections.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: TaoHorror on September 25, 2017, 12:47:49 am
So will there be a ZCon next year or was all that chatter just bullshit? I wanna go!
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Madness on September 25, 2017, 05:26:38 pm
"Next year," whenever that may be...

I'm sure the Ishoiya crowd and now the Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon will try and get together in 2018. Whether than includes Bakker or not, I couldn't be sure. I was literally after him as far back as Sep 2016 for August 2017 and it wasn't until a week or two beforehand that he confirmed publicly.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Wilshire on September 29, 2017, 02:27:12 pm
So will there be a ZCon next year or was all that chatter just bullshit? I wanna go!
I dunno if the economics, let alone everything else, will work out such that we can do it that often - both for the planers and the attendees.

If I were being honest, I'd say hoping for something the next time there is a book release wouldn't be totally outlandish but still perhaps not necessarily a distinct possibility.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon
Post by: Madness on October 01, 2017, 12:41:31 am
If I were being honest, I'd say hoping for something the next time there is a book release wouldn't be totally outlandish but still perhaps not necessarily a distinct possibility.

Good rule of thumb.