The Second Apocalypse
Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The Unholy Consult => Topic started by: Hogman on August 20, 2017, 10:50:50 am
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I can't find a thread anywhere that discusses the thing we've all missed, so this is it.
In the Unholy Consultation thread, Bakker says the following:
In TTT, Kellhus says the Mangaecca squat, chanting about Aurang's real body to relay him to the Synthese. But, the Consult's Brain Trust seems to be restricted to just Mek, Shauriatus, Aurang and Aurax (and then the Mutilated). Were there any other Minds among the Consult for the past 2 millenia or has it just been those four? If so, given their .. dilapidated status how did Consult programs like breeding the Inversi actually function? How did they manage it with so little sane manpower?
Your second question leads me to believe that pretty much everyone has missed a certain boat, in which case, I can only say, RAFO!
3. It seems kind of foolish that the Consult would bring Dunyain back as prisoners. Was it simple arrogance that made them feel safe in doing so, or are you actually kind of saying that the Consult brain trust isn't that great and has degraded?
3) Hmmm. I'm beginning to suspect that something rather significant has gone unrecognized. Either way, humility is not among the many virtues enjoyed by the Consult.
I've been pondering this for a few days, and I have a theory. It goes like this:
The original Dunyain were composed of an Anasurimbor, and some "refugees". Who were these refugees? My theory is that they were agents of the Consult, whose mission was to protect the Anasurimbor until such a time as the Consult were strong enough to resurrect the No God. Since they were able to activate the sarcophagus with Nau Cayuti, they believed one of his descendants would be able to do the same. Some or all of the refugees/Dunyain have been working with the Consult the whole time, communicating with them via sorcery. This was why sorcery was considered blasphemous by the Dunyain - so the Anasurimbor would never be able to work out that the communication was taking place.
This would appear to answer both points above, namely that the extra brainpower was coming from the Dunyain, and the Dunyain were taken to the Ark not as prisoners but as comrades. We found out right at the end of TUC that at least one of the Dunyain possessed sorcery, which was already implied anyway by the fact that Kellhus considered them any kind of a threat. Maybe they knew sorcery all along?
Any thoughts on this theory? Any other theories? I have one big hole in mine that I can't fill: At the end of one of the books (the WLW?) the Consult are torturing people to try to find out what the Dunyain are. It appears they genuinely don't know of their existence.
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Any thoughts on this theory? Any other theories? I have one big hole in mine that I can't fill: At the end of one of the books (the WLW?) the Consult are torturing people to try to find out what the Dunyain are. It appears they genuinely don't know of their existence.
Koringhus also doesn't remember any infighting between the Dunyain in his recollections of the fall of Ishual, while it should've happened if some Dunyain were traitors. It's also hard to believe the Dunyain wouldn't have discerned hidden agendas among themselves for so long.
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The Bardic Priest has always stuck in my mind as a Consult agent...
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What boat could be that certain one that Bakker mentioned?
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What boat could be that certain one that Bakker mentioned?
I don't know. The Boatman in Ishterebinth? Something to do with the Sranc population evolution in the Western Yimaleti mountains?
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What boat could be that certain one that Bakker mentioned?
I'm actually very confused as to him being literal or figurative here.
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I like the theory, but in none of the scenes where we get the Inchoroi they never mention something similar to this. And the Consult spent a great deal of time searching for Ishual in TWP-TTT. I would think they would have said something like
"Ah yes a ember, do you think that time has come you pretty pretty skin spy?
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I can't find a thread anywhere that discusses the thing we've all missed, so this is it.
I think the first thread (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=2301.0) went quickly off the rails so I support the reset but it's because its on the third page.
Three pages of contemporary threads. What a great time :)!
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My guess to the thing we missed is Ark and its capabilities. Just the fact that it could synthesize believable representations of Shauriutas and Kellhus mean it's still got some serious processing power left.
Also, the bit about the NG being a "prosthesis" suggests that the NG's abilities are tied to Ark.
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I don't have my TGO copy with me just now, but maybe there's something on Kellhus's monologue/ speech on the ship built by the just before Dagliash that we've missed? Anyway, I'll have a look when I'm home.
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I'm surprised people think RSB is referring to an actual boat. Surely it's just a figure of speech.
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I'm surprised people think RSB is referring to an actual boat. Surely it's just a figure of speech.
It wouldn't be the first time in history that a literal interpretation gives an actual hint ;)
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I'm surprised people think RSB is referring to an actual boat. Surely it's just a figure of speech.
+1
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I had a bit of a think on this and have arrived at an answer that I think is satisfactory.
To begin, there are two things we can infer from Bakker's statements here;
1. He thinks it is something fairly obvious that many have missed.
2. It's not important enough for him to instantly clarify it.
For me, this induction rules out convoluted theories that defy contradiction like the one Hogman puts forward.
A far more straightforward explanation that follows from the points that Bakker is responding to is that the membership of the Consult is more fluid than people are assuming.
Their history actually points towards them being a lot more active in recruiting than simply maintaining the core membership. Ieva, the Aporetics, the Mangaecca, the Bardic Priest and other operatives who did things like destroying the White Fleet. For whatever reason, it seems like they haven't managed the trick of a generic method to provide immortality for humans.
I think they mostly are happy to get important people to join their gang. Aurang has powerful methods of seduction, and if they can get someone to look at the Inverse Fire then they are pretty much on the team. Seems reasonable to think they were confident the Dunyain they got into the Golden Room would join, and Shauriatus was simply jealous of his position as top dog (as per his internal monologue in The False Sun).
Following on from this thought, I really want to know who the Spearman in TUC was. I imagine if he was a sixth Mutilated, Kellhus would have been alerted to them before he entered the Golden Room.
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I've been pondering this for a few days, and I have a theory. It goes like this:
The original Dunyain were composed of an Anasurimbor, and some "refugees". Who were these refugees? My theory is that they were agents of the Consult, whose mission was to protect the Anasurimbor until such a time as the Consult were strong enough to resurrect the No God. Since they were able to activate the sarcophagus with Nau Cayuti, they believed one of his descendants would be able to do the same. Some or all of the refugees/Dunyain have been working with the Consult the whole time, communicating with them via sorcery. This was why sorcery was considered blasphemous by the Dunyain - so the Anasurimbor would never be able to work out that the communication was taking place.
This would appear to answer both points above, namely that the extra brainpower was coming from the Dunyain, and the Dunyain were taken to the Ark not as prisoners but as comrades. We found out right at the end of TUC that at least one of the Dunyain possessed sorcery, which was already implied anyway by the fact that Kellhus considered them any kind of a threat. Maybe they knew sorcery all along?
Any thoughts on this theory? Any other theories? I have one big hole in mine that I can't fill: At the end of one of the books (the WLW?) the Consult are torturing people to try to find out what the Dunyain are. It appears they genuinely don't know of their existence.
1. The Dunyain stumble upon Ishual, and thusly the last bastard Anasurimbor. Kind of strange the Consult would have knowledge of the redoubt (though possible, I suppose.) If they did, why not just have the Anasurimbor brought to them if they're concerned with the bloodline? Even in Ishual, a random earthquake, fire or plague could annihilate their best known chance at resurrecting the No-God. Why not lock him away in the Ark and keep cloning/Tekne-breeding him until needed?
2. Bakker said (in the AMA I believe) that the Dunyain were refugees, angry at irrationality and magic for destroying their lives. I see no reason to question this.
3. The Mutilated are heavily scarred and ruined from the fighting at Ishual, and, as pointed out above, Koringhus makes no comment concerning traitors in their midst. Ergo, they were wounded severely fighting Sranc and Ishroi, which makes little sense if they were secret allies.
All that said, I could be wrong - wouldn't be the first time where this series is concerned! But I think our boat lies elsewhere. (Though I do wonder at a canon version of the Dunyain's pre-Ishual origins... perhaps a future Atrocity Tale, if it isn't pertinent to TNG?)
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I'm pretty sure the Spearman was simp,y referred to as an Erattic after Kellhus beats him.
I had been hoping for a big name.
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Huh, is that so? I wouldn't trust an erratic with it.
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For me, this induction rules out convoluted theories that defy contradiction
I feel the need to second this statement.
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I'm pretty sure the Spearman was simp,y referred to as an Erattic after Kellhus beats him.
I had been hoping for a big name.
I re-read the section after someone pointed it out earlier (because I kept thinking it was Aurang). It was referred to as an Erattic.
As to Hogman's points.
- I think the first reference really is just in regards to Ark. That the ship was at least somehow playing a role, in spite of dying. Or at least the machinery was allowing them to do more than their meager numbers.
- As to this point, I feel a lot less confident. But I think it might be the idea that Shauriatas might be within the Mutilated. Given his penchant for soul trapping magics, their spiritual strength, and their speaking in turn that the mage used in his other multi-vessel? I think it was suppose to be vaguely hinted as a possibility.
Second possibility, they wanted the Dunyain to join them. Ultimately it is very much a good thing to have four super-intelligent thought dancers at the fore. They were able to start grasping the Tekne, they beat Kellhus (in a manner of speaking), and brought back the No-God. One could debate how much they played into it, but the Consult needs all the help they can get, given the way two of their main members were whipped. Whether or not the Dunyain think they've subsumed the Consult, ultimately it is to the benefit of the surviving members.
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What boat could be that certain one that Bakker mentioned?
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I'm on board with Ark still having some degree of capacity, but I think another factor could be the Inverse Fire. It appears to have the ability to sooth Erratics and bring them back to some semblance of sanity and lucidity, at least temporarily. Mek essentially says as much in his scene with Kellhus. So perhaps the Consult simply exposes their Erratics to the Inverse Fire when they need some extra brainpower or flunkies who can function at a higher level than Sranc or Skinspies.
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I'm on board with Ark still having some degree of capacity, but I think another factor could be the Inverse Fire. It appears to have the ability to sooth Erratics and bring them back to some semblance of sanity and lucidity, at least temporarily. Mek essentially says as much in his scene with Kellhus. So perhaps the Consult simply exposes their Erratics to the Inverse Fire when they need some extra brainpower or flunkies who can function at a higher level than Sranc or Skinspies.
well yeah if the one thing that jogs memories is trauma then seeing your own damnation has to rank up there
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Something I missed in the first read-through: In the first chapter, Serwa recalls Seswatha wearing the Amiolas three times. She calls Immiricas' soul "the Goad" to remind the one wearing it of Hate. It therefore seems to fulfil the same function as the Inverse Fire, while at the same time referencing Ajokli.
No exact idea what this means though.
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I did note, as I was finishing the book, that apparently Malowebi suggests the Mbimayu have a chronicle of various soul-trapping/forestalling Damnation attempts across history.
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I'm on board with Ark still having some degree of capacity, but I think another factor could be the Inverse Fire. It appears to have the ability to sooth Erratics and bring them back to some semblance of sanity and lucidity, at least temporarily. Mek essentially says as much in his scene with Kellhus. So perhaps the Consult simply exposes their Erratics to the Inverse Fire when they need some extra brainpower or flunkies who can function at a higher level than Sranc or Skinspies.
Inverse-Fire->calmed Erratics is one of the ideas that crossed my mind in the previous threads. But I'm not too certain about it, because like Curethan said, it's something that should 'obvious', but the only evidence we have for it is Mek's reaction to the Fire. I myself have no idea what Bakker might consider to be the (supposedly) obvious answer. The author's PoV isn't the same as the readers.
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There was a scene from the Nau-Cayuti dreams where he sees a bunch of Nonmen staring into the fire in the Golden Room, if I recall correctly.