The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => General Earwa => General Q&A => Topic started by: Sausuna on August 23, 2017, 01:50:58 pm

Title: Study of Aporos Among Nonmen
Post by: Sausuna on August 23, 2017, 01:50:58 pm
Hey,

I wasn't sure if this was at all a spoiler question, but let me know if I need to add any tags.

My question was about the Aporos. Do we know why Nonmen outlawed the study/practice of it?
Title: Re: Study of Aporos Among Nonmen
Post by: TaoHorror on August 23, 2017, 02:54:18 pm
I took it scared them, it did give rise to the Chorae - the Quya didn't want nothing to do with that. But I seem to remember a more specific response to it ( just can't remember ), maybe they saw or knew of a connection with that study and the techne and/or the Ishoroi and they were in conflict/war with them at the time.
Title: Re: Study of Aporos Among Nonmen
Post by: Sausuna on August 25, 2017, 01:45:02 pm
Yeah, I searched around the books more, but couldn't really find the why. Though, I always got the impression that the study was outlawed before the Inchoroi came as well. But that might have just been an assumption of mine.

People discuss wanting to know more about the Psuhke, but I think learning more about the Aporos would be interesting. Seems like it would be markless as well, no? Can't recall sorcerer's seeing anything beings 'pinpricks of oblivion'.
Title: Re: Study of Aporos Among Nonmen
Post by: JerakoKayne on September 04, 2017, 03:32:45 am
I can't remember exactly where I saw it, but I have the tickle of a memory regarding something about it being a sort of religious issue. The inference I made reading something was that it was Nonman heresy. More specifically, that the Aporos was a rejection of mainstream Cunoroi spirituality, or their notions of the gods and Outside and stuff.

That and they were filthy traitors.

Probably it was some entry in the original PoN glossary, since none of this stuff was ever clear to me, at all, in the story itself.
Title: Re: Study of Aporos Among Nonmen
Post by: Duskweaver on September 04, 2017, 11:54:52 am
IIRC, the order of events was:

1 - The Aporos is conceived of.
2 - A few Quya start experimenting with it.
3 - It is outlawed.
4 - Aporetic Quya unwilling to give up their research defect and flee to the Ark.
5 - Aporetic Quya working in the Ark create the first Chorae.

It's pretty clear that Chorae were invented after the Aporos was already forbidden and cannot therefore be the reason for the ban. It's also clear that the Aporetics defected after the ban, so that defection/treason also cannot be the reason for the ban.
Title: Re: Study of Aporos Among Nonmen
Post by: MSJ on September 04, 2017, 12:40:41 pm
One thing about that timeline does not make sense. Sarkapus. They had a huge chorae hoard, by that timeline, did the Consult give them the chorae? No, I'd say that chorae had something to do with the ban.
Title: Re: Study of Aporos Among Nonmen
Post by: SmilerLoki on September 04, 2017, 02:38:10 pm
One thing about that timeline does not make sense. Sarkapus. They had a huge chorae hoard, by that timeline, did the Consult give them the chorae? No, I'd say that chorae had something to do with the ban.
Sakarpus did not exist when Aporos was prohibited in Nonmen society, since it was way before the Breaking of the Gates.
Title: Re: Study of Aporos Among Nonmen
Post by: MSJ on September 04, 2017, 02:40:17 pm
Ok. Well wonder how that got a c horae hoard then if the Apororetic sorcerers are at the Ark?
Title: Re: Study of Aporos Among Nonmen
Post by: SmilerLoki on September 04, 2017, 02:49:23 pm
Ok. Well wonder how that got a c horae hoard then if the Apororetic sorcerers are at the Ark?
Sakarpus was probably just amassing Chorae available in the Ancient North, the same way a Three Seas nation could in the present.
Title: Re: Study of Aporos Among Nonmen
Post by: MSJ on September 04, 2017, 09:43:41 pm
[/quote= Smilerloki]Sakarpus was probably just amassing Chorae available in the Ancient North, the same way a Three Seas nation could in the present.[/quote]

I don't think so. In the the Three-Seas the are treasured. Passed from father to son, or have enormous worth to purchase one. No one has a hoard, certainly. Recall. Maithenet have the Scarlet Spires 4, and that was regarded as hugely significance. No, the TS's possess nothing compared to the board of Sarkapus.
Title: Re: Study of Aporos Among Nonmen
Post by: SmilerLoki on September 05, 2017, 04:10:40 pm
I don't think so. In the the Three-Seas the are treasured. Passed from father to son, or have enormous worth to purchase one. No one has a hoard, certainly. Recall. Maithenet have the Scarlet Spires 4, and that was regarded as hugely significance. No, the TS's possess nothing compared to the board of Sarkapus.
As far as I recall the First Holy War, there is quite a significant amount of Chorae in the Three Seas (the TTT glossary references "thousands"), and tens of thousands were manufactured during the Cuno-Inchoroi Wars. The Hoard of Sakarpus was presented as notable, but not overwhelming, considering those numbers. It's just some of many Chorae lost during the Apocalypse.
Title: Re: Study of Aporos Among Nonmen
Post by: MSJ on September 05, 2017, 06:18:51 pm
Quote from:  SmilerLoki
The Hoard of Sakarpus was presented as notable, but not overwhelming, considering those numbers.

It seemed vast enough for Kellhus to deem in necessary to have for The Ordeal. And, I think thousands and tens of thousands is quite a gap in number. And, where did you get info on the amount of c horae Sakarpus has? Notable, but not overwhelming? Never heard that before.
Title: Re: Study of Aporos Among Nonmen
Post by: SmilerLoki on September 06, 2017, 04:25:50 am
It seemed vast enough for Kellhus to deem in necessary to have for The Ordeal. And, I think thousands and tens of thousands is quite a gap in number. And, where did you get info on the amount of c horae Sakarpus has? Notable, but not overwhelming? Never heard that before.
No, no, that's not textual evidence, it's just my interpretation of Kellhus's actions. He considered the Hoard big enough to have (and why not? even 20% increase of the Ordeal's Chorae is fairly significant), but never once was it postulated in the narrative that the Hoard is something miraculous. It was always just "many Chorae in one place", but its origin isn't even discussed by the characters, which implies it's no secret in the Three Seas.

So my understanding is, the Hoard is the Chorae stores of Inweära (presumably a nation of the Ancient North), of which only the city of Sakarpus remains after the Apocalypse.
Title: Re: Study of Aporos Among Nonmen
Post by: Duskweaver on September 06, 2017, 09:47:59 am
Quote
Ok. Well wonder how that got a c horae hoard then if the Apororetic sorcerers are at the Ark?

The Consult gave loads of Chorae to the Men of Eanna prior to the Breaking of the Gates. Along with the Tusk. And the instruction from "The Gods" (*snort!*) to invade Earwa and kill the Nonmen.

All Chorae possessed by Men are ultimately gifts from the Consult. Nothing at all to do with the Siqu / Nonman Tutelage. The Aporos had been forbidden for thousands of years before the Tutelage began.
Title: Re: Study of Aporos Among Nonmen
Post by: SmilerLoki on September 06, 2017, 10:00:58 am
The Consult gave loads of Chorae to the Men of Eanna prior to the Breaking of the Gates.
I agree on all accounts except that it was even before the Consult. The Inchoroi gave Chorae and the Tusk to the Tribes of Men.

The Consult began with the School of Mangaecca breaking into the Ark and finding Aurax and Aurang.
Quote from: R. Scott Bakker, "The Unholy Consult", the Encyclopaedic Glossary, "Consult"
The Mangaecca raised Nogaral upon Viri soon after, pretending to plumb the destroyed Nonman Mansion while in fact plumbing the Upright Horn—the intact heart of the Incû-Holoinas. At some point in their exploration they discovered and awakened the Last Inchoroi, Aurax and Aurang, at which point Cet’ingira ceased being Siqu and Shaeönanra ceased being Grandmaster of the Mangaecca, and the Unholy Consult of the Halaroi, Cûnuroi, and Inchoroi was born, a pact between the most brilliant and fearsome souls of all three races, an oath to destroy the World.
Title: Re: Study of Aporos Among Nonmen
Post by: Sausuna on September 06, 2017, 12:47:36 pm
Ok. Well wonder how that got a c horae hoard then if the Apororetic sorcerers are at the Ark?
This is specifically addressed in the TUC glossary.

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Title: Re: Study of Aporos Among Nonmen
Post by: MSJ on September 06, 2017, 03:04:33 pm
Quote from:  Sausuna
This is specifically addressed in the TUC glossary.

SPOILER (click to show/hide)

Thank you!
Title: Re: Study of Aporos Among Nonmen
Post by: Duskweaver on September 07, 2017, 11:30:49 am
I agree on all accounts except that it was even before the Consult. The Inchoroi gave Chorae and the Tusk to the Tribes of Men.
...
The Consult began with the School of Mangaecca breaking into the Ark and finding Aurax and Aurang.
Yes, I was imprecise with my terms. I keep forgetting they're not technically 'The Consult' until Men join them. :)
Title: Re: Study of Aporos Among Nonmen
Post by: Cynical Cat on September 17, 2017, 07:52:49 am
The Aporos was banned to keep it out of the hands of the Inchoroi, who had been able to convince parts of Viri to ally with them and who also possessed hyper tech death rays and other pieces of sci-fi badassery.  Some Aporetics defected to the Inchoroi and made Chorae to protect their masters and arm their servants, but they only got so much mileage over the latter as Sranc and Bashrag are too stupid to be good at using Chorae.  This lead to the Inchoroi trying to subvert the human vassals of the Nonmen and the humans giving their Chorae to their Nonman masters in tribute out of fear of the Nonmen's wrath.  That in turn lead the Inchoroi to give the men beyond the gates the Tusk. 
Title: Re: Study of Aporos Among Nonmen
Post by: SmilerLoki on September 17, 2017, 03:38:20 pm
The Aporos was banned to keep it out of the hands of the Inchoroi
I actually don't remember this stated as the initial reason with any kind of clarity. As far as I remember, the information available can be interpreted as Aporos being forbidden even before the Arkfall.
Title: Re: Study of Aporos Among Nonmen
Post by: JerakoKayne on September 17, 2017, 05:01:01 pm
The basic idea is this: the Quya first developed the Aporos in the prosecution of their own
intercine wars, but it was quickly forbidden. The arrival of the Inchoroi allowed several
renegade Quya to pursue their sorcerous interrogations, leading to the production of tens of
thousands of Chorae, which were used throughout the Cuno-Inchoroi wars.
Title: Re: Study of Aporos Among Nonmen
Post by: Sausuna on September 18, 2017, 12:59:12 pm
The quote is much appreciated, Jerako! Though, the why isn't well elucidated in that statement. It sounds like either it was too devastating or perhaps sacrilege. I've had kind of a pet theory that somehow chorae relate to oblivion in a way. But yeah, it did sound like (even before) that it was banned some time ago for reasons.
Title: Re: Study of Aporos Among Nonmen
Post by: H on September 18, 2017, 03:38:06 pm
The quote is much appreciated, Jerako! Though, the why isn't well elucidated in that statement. It sounds like either it was too devastating or perhaps sacrilege. I've had kind of a pet theory that somehow chorae relate to oblivion in a way. But yeah, it did sound like (even before) that it was banned some time ago for reasons.

I always figured that it was too much of an existent threat to the Noman power balance.  Chorae were certainly a threat that could push power from Quya to Ishroi if they got their hands on them.  No doubt the Quya would not want such a dramatic shift in the balance of power.
Title: Re: Study of Aporos Among Nonmen
Post by: Sausuna on September 18, 2017, 04:52:56 pm
The quote is much appreciated, Jerako! Though, the why isn't well elucidated in that statement. It sounds like either it was too devastating or perhaps sacrilege. I've had kind of a pet theory that somehow chorae relate to oblivion in a way. But yeah, it did sound like (even before) that it was banned some time ago for reasons.

I always figured that it was too much of an existent threat to the Noman power balance.  Chorae were certainly a threat that could push power from Quya to Ishroi if they got their hands on them.  No doubt the Quya would not want such a dramatic shift in the balance of power.
I'm really conflicted and still need to look into more. I might have mentioned it elsewhere.

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Title: Re: Study of Aporos Among Nonmen
Post by: SmilerLoki on September 18, 2017, 04:59:36 pm
The word you're forgetting would be "Elision".
Title: Re: Study of Aporos Among Nonmen
Post by: Sausuna on September 18, 2017, 05:06:57 pm
The word you're forgetting would be "Elision".
Yes, thank you. Forgot one minor detail to the theory.
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Title: Re: Study of Aporos Among Nonmen
Post by: Duskweaver on September 19, 2017, 03:59:50 pm
'Elision' is most likely the act of "hiding one's Voice" (c.f. the use of the term in linguistics) from the Agencies of the Outside, rather than the act of seeking Oblivion per se. Of course, the former seems to be a necessary (but not sufficient) prerequisite for succeeding at the latter.

The Deepest Deep is doubly interesting, because in Nonman metaphysics geographic depth is associated with the past. The implication may be that the Nonmen were not always damned, and that one of the theoretical approaches to seeking Oblivion lies in recovering that lost past (perhaps by de-evolving one's soul to a pre-sapient state, hence becoming invisible to Judgement just as animals are?)