The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The Unholy Consult => Topic started by: Francis Buck on August 26, 2017, 04:13:20 am

Title: [TUC Spoilers] Esmenet the Angelic Ciphrang
Post by: Francis Buck on August 26, 2017, 04:13:20 am
Been meaning to make this thread for a while now, but I was motivated to do so after catching Duskweaver's great thread on a similar topic, but I recommend you all read if you haven't already: http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=2402.0
 (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=2402.0)

I'll keep my hypothesis short and sweet...

Esmenet is a mighty Ciphrang. Like Cnaiur, who is a veritable Prince of Hell, so too is Esemenet a "Princess of Heaven", shall we say - and perhaps our only example of the elusive "angelic Ciphrang" which RSB mentioned in an interview years ago.

Consider:

-Mimara's JE can not only see the morality of a person but also their destiny and fate in the Outside.

-It's also capable of distinguishing between someone is merely damned (or saved), and someone who is actually one of the entities dishing out the damnation (or salvation).

-Note that when Mimara sees the Scalpers, or almost anyone that's damned up until TGO/TUC, she sees their souls being passed between demons in Hell and so forth.

-In contrast, when Mimara sees Cnaiur, and later the Ordealsmen at Golgotterath, she sees them as the demons, rather than one simply being fed upon by them. This is especially true in Cnaiur's case, who's not merely a Ciphrang but a so-called Prince of Hell, and again from an AMA/Q&A with the author, we know that certain people's souls are so strong they begin to "turn" early...perhaps when they're closer to their own death?

-As we also know, the Outside and all of its inhabitants exist atemporally. People don't so much become a Ciphrang, but rather some people always were a Ciphrang.

-This could also explain some of Cnaiur -- and now perhaps Esmenet's -- more extraordinary qualities. For example, Cnaiur's in his mid 60's by TUC, yet he's physically just as powerful as he always was, perhaps even more powerful, and in addition, he seems to have not aged almost whatsoever.

Compare with Esmenet, who should be in her fifties, yet is consistently described as being just as beautiful and healthy as she was 20 years ago. There's even a sequence in TGO where Esmenet actually sort of freaks out about it and wonders what kind of "abomination" would be so unnatural. It's even more poignant when you remember how the last Empress of the Three-Seas, Istriya, also had rather unnatural beauty for her age by the end, because she actually was was an abomination who had been replaced by a skin-spy.

Finally, it seems fitting that out of the original cast of series, we get two of them who end up on opposite ends of the moral and cosmic spectrum...

ETA: Thanks to Madness for grabbing this quote from the author:

Quote from: Bakker Interview Part 2 (http://fantasyhotlist.blogspot.ca/2011/07/r-scott-bakker-interview-part-2.html)
Since only demonic (as opposed to angelic) Ciphrang can be summoned and trapped in the World, practitioners of the Daimos can never trust the reports they receive: the so-called Damnation Archives in the Scarlet Spires are rumoured to be filled with wild contradictions. The Damned themselves only know that they are damned, and never why.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Esmenet the Angelic Ciphrang
Post by: Woden on August 26, 2017, 07:16:09 am
Nice point.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Esmenet the Angelic Ciphrang
Post by: Duskweaver on August 26, 2017, 10:59:34 am
So, if Cnaiur becomes Ajokli, maybe Esmenet becomes Yatwer?

On the one hand, I hate that idea, because it screws up Ajokli's long-hinted 'special status', as well as the theme of 99 stones plus 1, if he is not the only one of the Hundred who lived as a mortal.

But on the other hand, the idea that Esme spent years believing Yatwer hunted her and her children, when she was actually Yatwer all along... that's just too cool to dismiss.

There is definitely something special about Esmenet, anyway. I'd actually not really noticed the agelessness. But she also seems able to do things that would (supposedly) get anyone else damned (being a whore and using sorcerous birth-control; razing a big chunk of Carythusal in a rage; killing Naree even though she herself saw it as morally wrong; plotting to murder her own husband), and yet still shines with the "promise of Paradise".
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Esmenet the Angelic Ciphrang
Post by: Yellow on August 26, 2017, 12:19:58 pm
Maybe that's why she's saved? Because she tried to kill Kellhus.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Esmenet the Angelic Ciphrang
Post by: Madness on August 26, 2017, 03:29:05 pm
Quote from: Bakker Interview Part 2 (http://fantasyhotlist.blogspot.ca/2011/07/r-scott-bakker-interview-part-2.html)
Since only demonic (as opposed to angelic) Ciphrang can be summoned and trapped in the World, practitioners of the Daimos can never trust the reports they receive: the so-called Damnation Archives in the Scarlet Spires are rumoured to be filled with wild contradictions. The Damned themselves only know that they are damned, and never why.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Esmenet the Angelic Ciphrang
Post by: MSJ on August 26, 2017, 05:41:52 pm
Quote from:  Duskweaver
So, if Cnaiur becomes Ajokli, maybe Esmenet becomes Yatwer?

I've had similar thoughts, though in don't believe it to be the case. But, just for the sake of thread.

Akka- Anagke/Fate
Serwa- Onkhis
Esme- Yatwer
Cnair- Gilgal
Ajokli- Kellhus and this is why he can't be found.
And there are other connections we could make, just can't think of them now. I just don't believe Cnair became Ajokli and I don't believe the what comes after determines what comes before as the universal rule of Earwa. We have too many instances of what comes before determining what comes after.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Esmenet the Angelic Ciphrang
Post by: TLEILAXU on August 26, 2017, 06:14:05 pm
Quote from:  Duskweaver
So, if Cnaiur becomes Ajokli, maybe Esmenet becomes Yatwer?

I've had similar thoughts, though in don't believe it to be the case. But, just for the sake of thread.

Akka- Anagke/Fate
Serwa- Onkhis
Esme- Yatwer
Cnair- Gilgal
Ajokli- Kellhus and this is why he can't be found.
And there are other connections we could make, just can't think of them now. I just don't believe Cnair became Ajokli and I don't believe the what comes after determines what comes before as the universal rule of Earwa. We have too many instances of what comes before determining what comes after.
It's been stated directly that Cnair becomes possessed by Ajokli in the AMA tho.
Quote
For me, personally, Cnaiur/Ajokli wading into the hoard, screaming at the Whirlwind, looking for Kellhus. I wrote the first version of that scene in my 20's if you can believe it. Countless things in my life were tied off by it.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Esmenet the Angelic Ciphrang
Post by: MSJ on August 26, 2017, 06:23:40 pm
Right possessed, so was Kellhus. And, Cnair was possessed by Gilgol in TTT. Which is why I don't believe Cnair became Ajokli. He was just useful for Ajokli at that moment.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Esmenet the Angelic Ciphrang
Post by: Yellow on August 26, 2017, 06:59:07 pm
What are you using for evidence that Cnauir was possessed by Gilgaol in TTT? That wasn't my take at all.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Esmenet the Angelic Ciphrang
Post by: Crtha on August 27, 2017, 12:32:09 am
There is a part when he stands against the Nansur where he looks like he is aspected by Gilgaol, iirc. Possession is really stretching it imo.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Esmenet the Angelic Ciphrang
Post by: MSJ on August 27, 2017, 12:54:14 am
Quote from:  Curethan
There is a part when he stands against the Nansur where he looks like he is aspected by Gilgaol, iirc. Possession is really stretching it imo.

Right, at Joktha. And, Conphas muses on how everyone seen dread Gilgol in Cnair shadow. Only, in PoN Bakker never really played with the Gods and you didn't know if possession was even possible. He even stated he intentionally wrote it this way. But, in hindsight, I'd say it was clear that he was possessed and was foreshadowing for the role the Gods would play in TAE.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Esmenet the Angelic Ciphrang
Post by: Monkhound on September 01, 2017, 03:20:25 pm
There is a part when he stands against the Nansur where he looks like he is aspected by Gilgaol, iirc. Possession is really stretching it imo.

Wasn't there also a scene where Saubon had the same with Gilgal in TWP? Thought it was even at or after Mengedda.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Esmenet the Angelic Ciphrang
Post by: MSJ on September 01, 2017, 03:25:55 pm
Quote from:  Monkhound
Wasn't there also a scene where Saubon had the same with Gilgal in TWP? Thought it was even at or after Mengedda.

I am not sure, I'd have to go back and look. I know he was made Battle Celebrant by the priests of Gilgoal though.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Esmenet the Angelic Ciphrang
Post by: Wilshire on June 10, 2019, 04:11:49 pm
Quote from:  Monkhound
Wasn't there also a scene where Saubon had the same with Gilgal in TWP? Thought it was even at or after Mengedda.

I am not sure, I'd have to go back and look. I know he was made Battle Celebrant by the priests of Gilgoal though.

Part of the issue with this early possession speculation is, as MSJ notes, is that at this point in the series we don't even know gods are real. Its written in a way that can easily be read metaphorically instead of literally.

That said, there are several moments throughout PON, usually during battles, where Gilgaol is brought up in the context of possession.

Esmenet being holy, and therefore an Angelic Ciphrang seems like a solid maybe. Mimara as the holy Prophetess, eventually becoming some kind of Holy Divinity and then raising Esmenet up to be one of her Angels seems like something that might happen.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Esmenet the Angelic Ciphrang
Post by: Jabberwock03 on November 23, 2019, 01:20:23 pm
Reading this thread, I just got a crazy idea! I don't know if anyone already thought of this in this forum, but here it is:

We know that what come after can determine what come before.
What if somehow, all the events happening in the books, ends up creating the gods, and so creating the events itself (a loop of events)?

It's probably not the case, but I can definitly picture some weird device (similar to the inversed fire, or even the fire itself somehow), created to fight the gods, fucking around with mortal souls and ending up creating ciphrangs/gods.

To put it more graphically:

The gods exist for all of times ==> The Inchoroi want to avoid damnation ==> They create devices to fight them (one of them being able to turn mortal soul in cyphrang, intentionally or not) ==> They come to Earwa ==> Books event happens ==> Books characters trying to defeat the Consult ends up being turned into gods ==> The gods exist for all of times

I love that hypothesis, even if it's a bit far stretched (plus it has some scientific basis as, from what I read, mathematicaly at least, a closed time loop would be possible).
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Esmenet the Angelic Ciphrang
Post by: Wilshire on November 26, 2019, 12:52:21 pm
That's definitely something that has been proposed in some form or another.

The nature of the gods being 'outside time' yet seeing events within it, leads to some interesting, yet endlessly regressive, thinking.

On top of the time strangeness, there's also the fact that the events in the books tend to repeat themselves, though in most cases on a larger scale. The First Apocalypse, the first Ordeal, even writ small as the Vulgar Holy War and the Holy War, not to mention all the parallels between the various Anasurimbor men.

Its a very reciprocal system, and Bakker seems very fond of characters creating their own demise. So while I'm not sure its the way the story is going necessarily, I think it would fit within the bounds of what has been set up so far - that the events in the story created the gods which in turn retroactively create the events that lead to their creation.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Esmenet the Angelic Ciphrang
Post by: H on November 27, 2019, 10:15:09 pm
Well, I don't think that the gods are eternal at all.  In fact, even Kellhus points out that they aren't eternal at all, since the horizon of their "vision" is "limited" and so he posits that this means that the No-God must, at some point, win.

There are other things as well, but as per my huge rambling threads on souls, I don't buy that the Earwan gods are eternal, or even divine at all, per se.  Rather, they are beings of a collective (or collected) subconscious, Hegelian, Geist.

In fact, this is probably why they "hunger" for experience, because they, as a-temporal, cannot experience anything.  They just simply are.  They are as they are and they are as they have always been, that is, without time experienced, everything just simply is as it is, without a "movement through" time, everything just always has been and always will be, just as it is now.

I have this hunch that if I could get the time to read Heidegger's Being and Time, there would be something in there about this.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Esmenet the Angelic Ciphrang
Post by: Dora Vee on November 28, 2019, 05:28:40 pm
But, if it's a collective consciousness, then it had to come from somewhere? The universe itself? That could be considered an "always was". 
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Esmenet the Angelic Ciphrang
Post by: H on December 02, 2019, 01:57:26 pm
But, if it's a collective consciousness, then it had to come from somewhere? The universe itself? That could be considered an "always was".
Well, maybe?  But not as I see it.  Bakker has likened Earwa itself to a mind.  I don't presuppose it always was.  It was once it was.  Before that?  Well, who knows.

I guess if we want though, we can consider something like a panpsychism argument, which is all well and good, as far as it goes.  The key though, to me, is that it isn't just consciousness, whatever that is.  The key is the self-consciousness which critically is human consciousness.  And, critically, that is what Earwan spirits are self-consciousness "objectified" in the sense of somehow being "external objects."

Like Sci usually bring up, the cosmology of Earwa is a sort of monism, it is all just different "parts" of the same thing.  There is no "separate" realm of the Outside vs. the Inside or the Real.  It is all just different relational parts of the same "system: Earwa."
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Esmenet the Angelic Ciphrang
Post by: SmilerLoki on December 05, 2019, 09:26:07 am
Indeed. The Gods are just another way of perceiving consciousness, different from what more conventional beings like Men observe. Men move through time, which creates a certain frame of reference for conscious experience. The Gods do not, and so their frame of reference is different, atemporal. The consciousness itself, though, needs not be fractured for this, only perceived as such by Men.

And I agree, atemporal doesn't mean eternal. There is a limit to their being, and this is likely why the World will be shut, i.e. "the Inchoroi must win".
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Esmenet the Angelic Ciphrang
Post by: H on December 05, 2019, 02:08:00 pm
Indeed. The Gods are just another way of perceiving consciousness, different from what more conventional beings like Men observe. Men move through time, which creates a certain frame of reference for conscious experience. The Gods do not, and so their frame of reference is different, atemporal. The consciousness itself, though, needs not be fractured for this, only perceived as such by Men.

Well, I think Subjective self-consciousness is "fractured" in the subjective experiential sense.  Because the monism "appears" as pieces of the whole.  Of course, there are no pieces, since the whole is still the whole, differentiation is a sort of experiential "illusion" of perspective.  But I pretty much agree with what you said.

Also, this is likely why the Nonmen consider the 100 as "Principles."  Because they are exactly that, conceptual "beings" (in more psychoanalytic terms, akin to Jung use, a "complex") of consciousness (self-consciousness).  They are anthropomorphic only because that is how consciousness (self-consciousness) experiences and describes them, a sort of narrative contrivance, externalized as a sort of psychological projection.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Esmenet the Angelic Ciphrang
Post by: SmilerLoki on December 05, 2019, 03:51:29 pm
Yeah, pretty much my thinking here!
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Esmenet the Angelic Ciphrang
Post by: H on December 05, 2019, 06:19:51 pm
Yeah, pretty much my thinking here!

Well, it's nice to know that jumble of jargon makes sense to anyone else, besides me, out there, haha.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Esmenet the Angelic Ciphrang
Post by: SmilerLoki on December 06, 2019, 08:55:28 am
Well, we did kill the thread for everyone else, it seems. The glamorous life of having no friends.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Esmenet the Angelic Ciphrang
Post by: H on December 06, 2019, 02:13:41 pm
Well, we did kill the thread for everyone else, it seems. The glamorous life of having no friends.
If I have a skill, it's probably at being a buzz-kill.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Esmenet the Angelic Ciphrang
Post by: Wilshire on December 06, 2019, 08:25:14 pm
Buzz-skill.

...
Am I helping?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Esmenet the Angelic Ciphrang
Post by: H on December 06, 2019, 09:50:56 pm
Buzz-skill.

...
Am I helping?
Well, you probably can't hurt more than we already have, so, yes?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Esmenet the Angelic Ciphrang
Post by: mostly.harmless on December 07, 2019, 12:45:14 am
Lol

Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Esmenet the Angelic Ciphrang
Post by: Dora Vee on December 14, 2019, 06:40:41 pm
But, if it's a collective consciousness, then it had to come from somewhere? The universe itself? That could be considered an "always was".
Well, maybe?  But not as I see it.  Bakker has likened Earwa itself to a mind.  I don't presuppose it always was.  It was once it was.  Before that?  Well, who knows.

I guess if we want though, we can consider something like a panpsychism argument, which is all well and good, as far as it goes.  The key though, to me, is that it isn't just consciousness, whatever that is.  The key is the self-consciousness which critically is human consciousness.  And, critically, that is what Earwan spirits are self-consciousness "objectified" in the sense of somehow being "external objects."

Like Sci usually bring up, the cosmology of Earwa is a sort of monism, it is all just different "parts" of the same thing.  There is no "separate" realm of the Outside vs. the Inside or the Real.  It is all just different relational parts of the same "system: Earwa."

I honestly thought of "someone's mind" when I read that and I hope that it's not. St. Elsewhere already did that and welp...it wasn't appreciated. "It was all a dream" is usually seen as a negative.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Esmenet the Angelic Ciphrang
Post by: H on December 16, 2019, 01:34:31 am
I honestly thought of "someone's mind" when I read that and I hope that it's not. St. Elsewhere already did that and welp...it wasn't appreciated. "It was all a dream" is usually seen as a negative.
I don't really think of what Bakker said as if it's "all a dream" or the like, more that the system that is Earwa is simply structured as if it was a mind.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Esmenet the Angelic Ciphrang
Post by: Wilshire on December 16, 2019, 04:19:42 pm
I honestly thought of "someone's mind" when I read that and I hope that it's not. St. Elsewhere already did that and welp...it wasn't appreciated. "It was all a dream" is usually seen as a negative.

This quote/info, from Bakker, was described in more detail in that Stuff To Blow Your Mind podcast. Having listened to it, I did not get the feeling that "it was all a dream" is anywhere near what he was going for.

More like, as H said, the metaphysical structure of Earwa and the gods are like how the mind / conscious  / subconscious interact IRL (or some version of IRL insofar as Bakker thinks it works). Similar to how the Word of Earwa functions like our IRL biblical/holy-texts show the world - full of magic and vengeful gods.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Esmenet the Angelic Ciphrang
Post by: H on December 27, 2019, 03:23:51 pm
More like, as H said, the metaphysical structure of Earwa and the gods are like how the mind / conscious  / subconscious interact IRL (or some version of IRL insofar as Bakker thinks it works). Similar to how the Word of Earwa functions like our IRL biblical/holy-texts show the world - full of magic and vengeful gods.

Well, that is a major part of the "project" in-itself, the notion of a world that "works" how we think/thought it worked.