The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => The No-God => Topic started by: profgrape on September 01, 2017, 07:57:19 pm

Title: Perspective and answers to open questions
Post by: profgrape on September 01, 2017, 07:57:19 pm
In PON and TAE, many of the biggest questions were answered in the confrontations between Dunyain: Kellhus and Moneghus; and Kellhus and the Mutilated.  His was the perspective of revelation.

Given that there are still a number of open questions in TNG, how do you all think we'll get the answers in a post-Kellhus world?  From whom (and through whom) are we going to get these answers, especially from the Mutilated?
Title: Re: Perspective and answers to open questions
Post by: MSJ on September 01, 2017, 08:49:05 pm
Quote from:  Profgrape
Given that there are still a number of open questions in TNG, how do you all think we'll get the answers in a post-Kellhus world?

Kellhus is dead.....but not done. ;) 
Title: Re: Perspective and answers to open questions
Post by: Redeagl on September 02, 2017, 12:34:05 am
Quote from:  Profgrape
Given that there are still a number of open questions in TNG, how do you all think we'll get the answers in a post-Kellhus world?

Kellhus is dead.....but not done. ;) 
I don't think he will be talking to important people as if he had run the whole thing anymore.... That status is not his. It's time for our hero to shine, one of only two characters to appear in TDTCB and survive all the way..... Drusas Achamian.
Title: Re: Perspective and answers to open questions
Post by: MSJ on September 02, 2017, 04:48:45 am
Quote from:  Redeagl
I don't think he will be talking to important people as if he had run the whole thing anymore.... That status is not his. It's time for our hero to shine, one of only two characters to appear in TDTCB and survive all the way..... Drusas Achamian.

I'd love for Akka to be the hero. I just don't see it playing out that way....entirely.
Title: Re: Perspective and answers to open questions
Post by: Redeagl on September 02, 2017, 01:30:40 pm
Quote from:  Redeagl
I don't think he will be talking to important people as if he had run the whole thing anymore.... That status is not his. It's time for our hero to shine, one of only two characters to appear in TDTCB and survive all the way..... Drusas Achamian.

I'd love for Akka to be the hero. I just don't see it playing out that way....entirely.
Eärwa needs a Mandate schoolman to save it from an Apocalypse. Like the First one. Who better than Akka?  Come, MSJ, you need to embrace the Kellhus hate. Soon, young MSJ will be one of us and the "Kellhus is still alive!!!" rebellion will be crushed.
Title: Re: Perspective and answers to open questions
Post by: Madness on September 02, 2017, 06:10:00 pm
Malowebi's head is still just hanging on Salt-Kellhus in the Golden Room?

Also, I think it's probably going to be a pretty interesting juxtaposition going forward regarding the Mutilated, especially, as the reader knows about them but the characters do not...
Title: Re: Perspective and answers to open questions
Post by: Yellow on September 02, 2017, 07:08:11 pm
Malowebi's head is still just hanging on Salt-Kellhus in the Golden Room?

Also, I think it's probably going to be a pretty interesting juxtaposition going forward regarding the Mutilated, especially, as the reader knows about them but the characters do not...

On a tangent... I hate it in fiction (books or films) when the reader knows more than the characters. I spend the entire time waiting for them to catch up.

I think the main reason the second half of the Wheel of Time fell away in dramatic tension was primarily a result of this very problem. 
Title: Re: Perspective and answers to open questions
Post by: Duskweaver on September 02, 2017, 07:11:30 pm
Also, I think it's probably going to be a pretty interesting juxtaposition going forward regarding the Mutilated, especially, as the reader knows about them but the characters do not...
On a similar note, the characters presumably all believe Kellhus is in the Carapace. The only people who know it's Kelmomas in there are in the Golden Room. I wonder if that will be significant?
Title: Re: Perspective and answers to open questions
Post by: Duskweaver on September 02, 2017, 07:13:20 pm
On a tangent... I hate it in fiction (books or films) when the reader knows more than the characters.
But the reader/watcher always knows more than some characters, unless it's a single-viewpoint work. Seems a weird thing to get upset about.
Title: Re: Perspective and answers to open questions
Post by: Madness on September 02, 2017, 07:33:07 pm
Also, I think it's probably going to be a pretty interesting juxtaposition going forward regarding the Mutilated, especially, as the reader knows about them but the characters do not...

On a similar note, the characters presumably all believe Kellhus is in the Carapace. The only people who know it's Kelmomas in there are in the Golden Room. I wonder if that will be significant?

Indeed. It should certainly colour all discourse regarding the No-God 2.0 going forward.
Title: Re: Perspective and answers to open questions
Post by: Duskweaver on September 02, 2017, 07:59:36 pm
With any other author, I would confidently predict that discovering what's in the box (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLDhMU5JvMk) would be the key to defeating the No-God. But this is Bakker, so I suspect the revelation, if it comes at all, will turn out to be entirely unhelpful. :P
Title: Re: Perspective and answers to open questions
Post by: MSJ on September 02, 2017, 08:05:35 pm
Great movie! That scene crushed me.
Title: Re: Perspective and answers to open questions
Post by: TLEILAXU on September 03, 2017, 12:24:58 am
I suspect/hope Meppa will be a POV character detailing what's happening in the Three Seas.
Title: Re: Perspective and answers to open questions
Post by: MSJ on September 03, 2017, 01:10:22 am
In the little Skype session we just had, I suggested that from one of Akka's "new" dreams that the heron spear isn't what killed TNG. I would theorize that Mimara or Meppa speaking with God's own voice (Psukhe) would be its undoing.

[EDIT Madness: Fixed.]
Title: Re: Perspective and answers to open questions
Post by: Redeagl on September 03, 2017, 01:57:10 am
In the little Skype session we just had, I suggested that from one of Anna's "new" dreams that the heron spear isn't what killed TNG. I would theorize that Mimara or Meppa speaking with God's own voice (Psukhe) would be its undoing.
It wasn't Skype nor did you say anything about Anna's dreams....

Serious reply: Meppa killing the new NG also crossed my mind. Remember that the characters think that the NG is Kellhus.
Title: Re: Perspective and answers to open questions
Post by: Madness on September 03, 2017, 07:37:31 pm
*Akka, I so beg the Almighty Wilshire and Dear Madness to fix this feature to edit from my phone, and quote for that matter... If not possible, I guess I start proofreading my dann posts. SMH

We're trying, friend.

Though, rule of thumb, always read your posts before posting ;).
Title: Re: Perspective and answers to open questions
Post by: Duskweaver on September 04, 2017, 11:38:12 am
Though, rule of thumb, always read your posts before posting ;).
Read them, and then copy them to your clipboard, because the forum is hungry and likes to randomly eat posts. Especially the long, insightful ones you spent ages composing. Speaking from bitter experience here. :)
Title: Re: Perspective and answers to open questions
Post by: TaoHorror on September 04, 2017, 06:46:08 pm
I think POV from The Mutilated and TNG would be so cool in the next series. Akka's a bitch, he ain't saving no one, let alone himself ( here's hopin' he gets "run" over on his way out of town ). Mimara, Crab, Meppa, Moe and Serwa ( if she's alive ) ... all good candidates to do what needs doin'. Hell, I would even take Aurax to save the day over Akka. He's all Dear me, I'm the harbinger of the Apocalypse, waaaaaaa! Do something about it, you old fuck - don't recall you jumping in to fight - coulda wipped out some nasty Gnostic shit on the Horde/Bashrags, but noooo, think I'll just be sittin' by the ladies, crying in my beer. Fuck you, man. Bakker said he was bashed up, not able to even walk well ( hence, not thinking of taking Mog out when he was presented without Chorae protection ), but if he was already fighting he could've just sent his pretty geometries on over to the Carapace and be done with it.

Oh, wait, that would mean no more books - ok, Akka, I forgive ya, I need more of this depraved ecstasy to keep me going.
Title: Re: Perspective and answers to open questions
Post by: Redeagl on September 05, 2017, 04:21:04 pm
A Mutilated PoV would be intriguing, but too revealing?
Title: Re: Perspective and answers to open questions
Post by: TaoHorror on September 05, 2017, 05:31:26 pm
Ah, maybe - could be done with "art". Don't need them mulling over the grand plan to yield so much, but at least some flashbacks to the Ishual battle ( technically a "war" if we consider the Dunyain hold to be a "country", it was sovereign ). That whole Shrieker v Dunyain labyrinthine thing would've been tasty to read about.
Title: Re: Perspective and answers to open questions
Post by: Madness on September 08, 2017, 02:10:52 am
Ah, maybe - could be done with "art". Don't need them mulling over the grand plan to yield so much, but at least some flashbacks to the Ishual battle ( technically a "war" if we consider the Dunyain hold to be a "country", it was sovereign ).

This is the quote I was looking for in another thread but it serves a purpose here. Apparently, their POV was already featured in TDTCB drafts (or at least that's what I took from it):

Did we see any of the Mutilated in previous books?

Not that I recall, no. I feel muddy on this simply because the original beginning of TDTCB featured a lot more facetime with the brethren.

That whole Shrieker v Dunyain labyrinthine thing would've been tasty to read about.

Yeah, that's definitely a short story he should feature...
Title: Re: Perspective and answers to open questions
Post by: solipsisticurge on September 10, 2017, 07:20:38 pm
A Mutilated PoV would be intriguing, but too revealing?
It would be silly, but perhaps they keep Malowebi around on the salty emperor statue commemorating Resumption, and he can continue his role as eyes and ears without comprehension or explanation. Or Aurax POV could serve the same purpose, again with limited ability to grasp what was being conveyed.

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Title: Re: Perspective and answers to open questions
Post by: profgrape on September 11, 2017, 04:31:16 pm
A Mutilated PoV would be intriguing, but too revealing?
It would be silly, but perhaps they keep Malowebi around on the salty emperor statue commemorating Resumption, and he can continue his role as eyes and ears without comprehension or explanation. Or Aurax POV could serve the same purpose, again with limited ability to grasp what was being conveyed.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


I'm hoping that Malowebi will continue as a POV (I could never get enough "curse Likaro" insults).  But given what happened with Ajokli, you'd think that the Mutilated wouldn't be too keen on keeping the Decapitants in place.

The more I think about it, the more I wonder if Crabicus will be the POV that confronts the Mutilated.  He could wind up being the only person who heads toward Golgatterath at this point.
Title: Re: Perspective and answers to open questions
Post by: solipsisticurge on September 11, 2017, 05:19:51 pm
Definitely possible. Would also make for a nice inversion of history; the last bastard Anasurimbor stumbles upon the fortress redoubt of the Dunyain, a distorted reflection two millennia in the making. Not sure how it ties into Cranny's story being cut off from the rest of the series, though - having the final confrontation with the big bad isn't really isolated from the larger story. Unless we assume Bakker was lying or utilizing legalistic truth-telling.

Since TNG only exists to assuage readers and provide a more traditional narrative closure, Moenghus striking down the Consult with the Scylvendi might be the most satisfying. Demon Cnaiur laughs as his son (his PROOF) rids the world of the menace that ruined his entire life.

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Title: Re: Perspective and answers to open questions
Post by: Madness on September 13, 2017, 01:24:51 am
Definitely possible. Would also make for a nice inversion of history; the last bastard Anasurimbor stumbles upon the fortress redoubt of the Dunyain, a distorted reflection two millennia in the making. Not sure how it ties into Crabby's story being cut off from the rest of the series, though - having the final confrontation with the big bad isn't really isolated from the larger story. Unless we assume Bakker was lying or utilizing legalistic truth-telling.

I think Bakker just hasn't made some structural narrative decisions yet. He seems pretty set on what he wants to tell just not how he wants to tell it. I don't think the Crabikiad will be separate from the established set/character sandbox so much as he seems to be uncertain about the Boy's appeal.

As it stands, he's already admitted that the Boy survives, Meppa survives, a portion of the Great Ordeal retreats and probably includes Serwa (thus likely Kayutas), Achamian, Esmenet, and Mimara. Moenghus seems to escape unscathed with the entirety of the Scylvendi to side as he will. Zeum is definitely still to play a part and Ciphrang-Malowebi and Malowebi's head are out there. I can't tell from all that if Bakker thinks the Boy just isn't as interesting as the rest of the arcs or if it can't be successfully interleaved with those arcs or those other arcs can't stand alone, etc, etc.

Since TNG only exists to assuage readers and provide a more traditional narrative closure.

I disagree with this entirely. Bakker's had TNG's arcs planned and at least the last scenes and lines of TNG drafted for time. I think the problem for us, as MG and FB have offered to me separately regarding TNG as humanity's swan song, is that I can't imagine what Bakker's readerly catharsis might look like, which as per TUC's end has effected readers and the possible need for cognitive closure already suggests.
Title: Re: Perspective and answers to open questions
Post by: solipsisticurge on September 13, 2017, 02:27:42 am
I was referring to what I'd read somewhere, that the series was originally going to conclude in its entirety with the end of TUC, but Bakker later decided against this. That the purpose of additional story is to provide more traditionally satisfying closure is (possibly incorrect) inference on my part.

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Title: Re: Perspective and answers to open questions
Post by: TLEILAXU on September 13, 2017, 02:46:24 am
The only closure I need is knowing what happened to my beloved Shaeönanra.
Title: Re: Perspective and answers to open questions
Post by: Madness on September 13, 2017, 06:43:19 pm
I was referring to what I'd read somewhere, that the series was originally going to conclude in its entirety with the end of TUC, but Bakker later decided against this. That the purpose of additional story is to provide more traditionally satisfying closure is (possibly incorrect) inference on my part.

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Yeah, I mean neither Bakker nor Overlook has done that misconception any favours but it seems to me a version of internet goobly-gook/telephone game/chinese whispers/whatever.

Wilshire and I have quoted the links to cite a number of times around the forum so I'd have to go digging but as far as I can tell the only comment Bakker made about TUC "completing his original [17-year old] vision" or whathaveyou was on his blog in the past couple years. Bakker's been talking about The-Book-That-Shall-Not-Be-Named and then The-Series-That-Shall-Not-Be-Named as far back as 04/05 when TDTCB/TWP were coming out. By my reading, we should attribute the addition of TNG to the "original vision" as contemporary of before TDTCB was ever published (which, holy shit, was when Bakker was in his early thirties)... a narrative addition he made between the ages of 17 and 35, not between 35-50.

I think, too many of the small-subset of readers online perceive TNG as superfluous while the above accounting clearly argues otherwise.
Title: Re: Perspective and answers to open questions
Post by: TaoHorror on September 22, 2017, 03:16:13 pm
Is it possible Kel saw his doom in that room? Bringing the head as a trojan horse type move, leaving an operative in his wake to finish the job. Why else bring him? Seems like a tight plan to introduce a spy into the room, otherwise why have him? My first read was that was why he brought him, as backup.
Title: Re: Perspective and answers to open questions
Post by: profgrape on September 23, 2017, 12:04:43 pm
Is it possible Kel saw his doom in that room? Bringing the head as a trojan horse type move, leaving an operative in his wake to finish the job. Why else bring him? Seems like a tight plan to introduce a spy into the room, otherwise why have him? My first read was that was why he brought him, as backup.
Agreed.  While Kellhus' vision was clouded, he always liked to have a lot of pieces in reserve.

At first I thought Malo was along to record what happened; he is the Witness, after all. But once we saw that he couldn't really communicate, that was out.

Title: Re: Perspective and answers to open questions
Post by: Duskweaver on September 23, 2017, 02:25:59 pm
There's also the issue that Kellhus (or Ajokli) instructs Malowebi not to look into the IF. If Malowebi is irrelevant to Kellhus' (or Ajokli's) plans at that point, why bother to ensure he remains untainted by the Goad?
Title: Re: Perspective and answers to open questions
Post by: TaoHorror on September 25, 2017, 12:46:01 am
Exactly
Title: Re: Perspective and answers to open questions
Post by: profgrape on September 25, 2017, 08:21:15 pm
There's also the issue that Kellhus (or Ajokli) instructs Malowebi not to look into the IF. If Malowebi is irrelevant to Kellhus' (or Ajokli's) plans at that point, why bother to ensure he remains untainted by the Goad?
Good point.  You'd figure that Kellhus has the pick of the litter when it comes to Decapitants.  So the very fact that he chose Malowebi, let alone making sure he wasn't corrupted by the Goad, matters.

To me, it all points to the fact that Kellhus knew he'd fail.  The bit in TUC where he talks about how the very fact of the Gods' blindness means someday, somehow, the Consult wins and the NG walks.  That he didn't know how things would play out wouldn't stop him from having some kind of plan, right?

Title: Re: Perspective and answers to open questions
Post by: MSJ on September 25, 2017, 08:26:56 pm
This is all fine and dandy. But, what will Kellhus do trapped in the head of Malowebi, laying on the floor of the Golden Room? Is the demon Malowebi, who was instructed to return to Kellhus when through with the Zeumi, is on his way back to his Master? How does he get into the GR? Or, will they (CONSULT) simply discard the salted remains of Kellhus? It can work if demon Malowebi makes it back to Kellhus, though.
Title: Re: Perspective and answers to open questions
Post by: profgrape on September 25, 2017, 08:59:43 pm
This is all fine and dandy. But, what will Kellhus do trapped in the head of Malowebi, laying on the floor of the Golden Room? Is the demon Malowebi, who was instructed to return to Kellhus when through with the Zeumi, is on his way back to his Master? How does he get into the GR? Or, will they (CONSULT) simply discard the salted remains of Kellhus? It can work if demon Malowebi makes it back to Kellhus, though.
To be clear, I don't think Kellhus is trapped in Malo's head.  Or at least, I didn't until you mentioned it... ;-)

All joking aside, "dead but not done" is more about Kellhus' plans surviving his death.  Not saying he had it all figured out.  But I think that several of his machinations (Akka/Mimara, for example), have yet to show their true purpose.
Title: Re: Perspective and answers to open questions
Post by: Sausuna on September 26, 2017, 12:32:43 pm
This is all fine and dandy. But, what will Kellhus do trapped in the head of Malowebi, laying on the floor of the Golden Room? Is the demon Malowebi, who was instructed to return to Kellhus when through with the Zeumi, is on his way back to his Master? How does he get into the GR? Or, will they (CONSULT) simply discard the salted remains of Kellhus? It can work if demon Malowebi makes it back to Kellhus, though.
To be clear, I don't think Kellhus is trapped in Malo's head.  Or at least, I didn't until you mentioned it... ;-)

All joking aside, "dead but not done" is more about Kellhus' plans surviving his death.  Not saying he had it all figured out.  But I think that several of his machinations (Akka/Mimara, for example), have yet to show their true purpose.
I mean, this is Kellhus we're talking about here. He actually travelled to the hells and struck deals with a god. If anyone is going to be able to say 'death is just a setback', then it'd be him.
Title: Re: Perspective and answers to open questions
Post by: Madness on September 26, 2017, 04:15:18 pm
There's also the issue that Kellhus (or Ajokli) instructs Malowebi not to look into the IF. If Malowebi is irrelevant to Kellhus' (or Ajokli's) plans at that point, why bother to ensure he remains untainted by the Goad?
Good point.  You'd figure that Kellhus has the pick of the litter when it comes to Decapitants.  So the very fact that he chose Malowebi, let alone making sure he wasn't corrupted by the Goad, matters.

As per FB, it seems like Kellhus was collecting Decapitants beyond the two on his girdle. And good call, boys, on Ajokli or Kellhus instructing Malowebi to not look at the Goad.

To be clear, I don't think Kellhus is trapped in Malo's head.  Or at least, I didn't until you mentioned it... ;-)

Lol, kind of aside since we're chatting but as I've said I think Kellhus is trapped in the other Decapitant.

I mean, this is Kellhus we're talking about here. He actually travelled to the hells and struck deals with a god. If anyone is going to be able to say 'death is just a setback', then it'd be him.

I'm clearly in the minority but again I think Ajokli, not Kellhus, had to strike "pacts with the Pit."
Title: Re: Perspective and answers to open questions
Post by: Sausuna on September 26, 2017, 05:36:37 pm
I'm clearly in the minority but again I think Ajokli, not Kellhus, had to strike "pacts with the Pit."
Eh, I think that's possible, but it doesn't fit for me on a few levels. The first being that a god like Ajokli wouldn't necessarily need to make pacts with hell being that he is a god. Though, that's obviously much more at question given we don't know the precise nature of the outside realms and those who rule them. But I would think he would have his own realm.

But that aside, his discussion of the pacts is followed closely by 'which is why they needed me, inverse prophet, etc.' Would make me think he at least was speaking as himself still.
Title: Re: Perspective and answers to open questions
Post by: TLEILAXU on September 26, 2017, 08:12:35 pm
Ajokli also says that the Inverse Fire is but a window into his house.
Title: Re: Perspective and answers to open questions
Post by: Madness on September 27, 2017, 03:27:30 pm
Eh, I think that's possible, but it doesn't fit for me on a few levels. The first being that a god like Ajokli wouldn't necessarily need to make pacts with hell being that he is a god. Though, that's obviously much more at question given we don't know the precise nature of the outside realms and those who rule them. But I would think he would have his own realm.

Well, we're told through PON and TTT Glossary that Ajokli is not like the other Hundred - how, why, etc, we don't know. But it implies that he interacts with the world and Outside as distinct from the agency, behaviours, etc, expressed by the other Gods.

But that aside, his discussion of the pacts is followed closely by 'which is why they needed me, inverse prophet, etc.' Would make me think he at least was speaking as himself still.

Yeah, profgrape and I have debated and tried to reconcile the particulars a number of times. The only - admittedly weak - conjecture I can offer is that Ajokli-through-Kelllhus retains Kellhus' persona/faculties/memories, whatever?

Ajokli also says that the Inverse Fire is but a window into his house.

My italics. Gall... finally. It's like I've been speaking gibberish this whole time.
Title: Re: Perspective and answers to open questions
Post by: H on September 27, 2017, 05:20:01 pm
I'm clearly in the minority but again I think Ajokli, not Kellhus, had to strike "pacts with the Pit."

In this case, to what end?  Why would Ajokli need pacts in the place where he (presumably) wields maximal power?

I thought it would be Kellhus would "struck pacts" via the Daimos (a la the "head-on-a-pole" scenes in TGO).
Title: Re: Perspective and answers to open questions
Post by: Sausuna on September 27, 2017, 05:41:13 pm
Well, we're told through PON and TTT Glossary that Ajokli is not like the other Hundred - how, why, etc, we don't know. But it implies that he interacts with the world and Outside as distinct from the agency, behaviours, etc, expressed by the other Gods.
Sure, that was the main reason I give it a 'maybe'. We don't quite know the exact nature of Ajokli as of yet.

Quote
Yeah, profgrape and I have debated and tried to reconcile the particulars a number of times. The only - admittedly weak - conjecture I can offer is that Ajokli-through-Kelllhus retains Kellhus' persona/faculties/memories, whatever?
It can be either way, hard to say. To me I think it didn't kick over until close at the end of his talking. But there isn't a clear determining aspect of it.


@H - I would think it depends on the nature of Ajokli. As Madness denotes, he is described in a lot of ways, sometimes as a 'companion to the Gods' or something. It seems possible that he could have maybe been a soul turned ciphrang turned god. In which case, he'd have to deal.
Title: Re: Perspective and answers to open questions
Post by: MSJ on September 27, 2017, 08:24:05 pm
I've got threads on Ajokli somewhere around here and many posts. I believed him very important to the story, for many of the reason giving above. The Cnauir became Ajokli is nice thematically. Mimara saw the Prince of Hate, One of Ajokli's monikers. I just don't really believe it.

Matter of fact, I've thought this for sometime, I just can't square it within the text. When Ajokli is described, it's as a trickster, companion to the Gods, one that will lie to you, cheat and steal to get what he wants. He's known to give his Narindar's the power they need, only to take it all away when they need it most.

Doesn't sound like Cnauir to me. A man who is bound by honor and such. A great warrior who seeks vengeance. But Kellhus? Oh yes. Ajokli and Kellhus share many, many traits. Look at how he won the Three-Seas and became Aspect-Emperor. He lied, cheated and stole his way into power. Hell he murdered his own flesh and blood. If we look at what comes after determines what comes before, well, Ajokli and Kellhus kinda fusing together makes plenty of sense. I just can't square it, as I said through the text. If Ajokli just doesn't understand that Kellhus and him are one entity now would be the only way.
Title: Re: Perspective and answers to open questions
Post by: MSJ on September 27, 2017, 08:30:48 pm
Sorry for double-post, can't edit.

Also, the Head on a pole scene would explain why he is viewed as a companion to the Gods. Yes, I say that Ajokli being Kellhus is much more likely than Cnauir and even have some textual evidence it could be the case. Its just hard to square the last bit where he is looking for Kellhus and can't find him. Unless that is, they are one and the same and Ajokli can't comprehend how that is. Its why he can't find him.
Title: Re: Perspective and answers to open questions
Post by: Sausuna on September 27, 2017, 08:43:27 pm
Sorry for double-post, can't edit.

Also, the Head on a pole scene would explain why he is viewed as a companion to the Gods. Yes, I say that Ajokli being Kellhus is much more likely than Cnauir and even have some textual evidence it could be the case. Its just hard to square the last bit where he is looking for Kellhus and can't find him. Unless that is, they are one and the same and Ajokli can't comprehend how that is. Its why he can't find him.
I was about to say, I have a hard time squaring either of them being Ajokli unless they would somehow both be him. His reputation has him being too tricky for me to think him just Cnauir and his appearance/possessing Cnauir and other titles make him seem too angry/emotional/greedy to be just Kellhus. But both? I could maybe see it then.

The main catch I have with Kellhus is still the weird temporal stuff as well. The fact that Kellhus seemingly encountered Ajokli prior to TUC, then was possessed in TUC, then Ajokli was banished, Kellhus died, then also become eternal Ajokli. Just seems strange than say Kelmomas who seemingly follows a more understandable temporal loop of always being the NoGod. This is less me arguing this as a roadblock, more just the fact that I hate time stuff in most settings.
Title: Re: Perspective and answers to open questions
Post by: MSJ on September 27, 2017, 08:44:32 pm
Quote from:  Sausuna
@H - I would think it depends on the nature of Ajokli. As Madness denotes, he is described in a lot of ways, sometimes as a 'companion to the Gods' or something. It seems possible that he could have maybe been a soul turned ciphrang turned god. In which case, he'd have to deal.

Let me make it clear that Kellhus is Ajokli isn't something I'm 100% promoting. But, your quote above gives it even more credence. Kellhus struck deals with the pit via the Daimos, Head on the pole, companion to the Gods. He roamed hell and returned, again, companion to the Gods. As i said, they share many traits. And Madness's not about them fusing together in a sense, might be literally. It could again why we have trouble telling when one starts talking in the Golden Room. It could explain how Bakker says that as he neared the Golden Room he became more and more inhabited by Ajokli. Well, hell, he could be just became Ajokli.
Title: Re: Perspective and answers to open questions
Post by: MSJ on September 27, 2017, 08:52:21 pm
@Sausuna, yep it's hard to square either and I definitely like that they could be both, your explanation about their traits makes sense. I'm with you though, it's very hard to square it within the text. But, clues giving to who Ajokli is, makes the theorizing of it, very enticing!
Title: Re: Perspective and answers to open questions
Post by: TaoHorror on September 28, 2017, 01:43:42 am
The thought on the other decapitant is Kel, is the thinking that he arranged an escape path in case things got hairy ( which they did when he was surrounded by 100 chorae wielding Consult )? So when he was salted, he saved himself? Bakker says he's dead, count on it, so I think inhabiting the severed head would be a death thwarting move ... but the other head seems significant in the read, for sure. If not Kel, then who?

The whole Ajokoli thing should square in the next read - just too opaque at this point in the story to understand what exactly happened and who Ajokoli possessed, etc. My take is the possession is invited by the host and Cnair's "hate" equivalent to an invite. But I'm not putting any chips on anything at this point.
Title: Re: Perspective and answers to open questions
Post by: Madness on September 29, 2017, 04:09:54 pm
In this case, to what end?  Why would Ajokli need pacts in the place where he (presumably) wields maximal power?

What if Ajokli doesn't wield maximal power in the Hells, given his drive to effect the same on Earwa's plane? It's something I haven't teased out yet and has been difficult to do so because so few are considering this line of thought. Perhaps even if he is akin to Hel or Hades, more powerful Ciphrang than himself exist?

Also, H, you'll really enjoy the portion of that latest Stuff to Blow Your Mind regarding the Gods and their relation to the World.

It can be either way, hard to say. To me I think it didn't kick over until close at the end of his talking. But there isn't a clear determining aspect of it.

What tips me a bit is that Malowebi sees this same marring reflection over both Kellhus' head and the other Decapitant but only sees it on the other Decapitant shortly before Ajokli goes goes full Ghost-Rider God-Mode - he sees the marring earlier looking at Kellhus through the reflection of the Ark's surface - which suggests that Ajokli's dialogue extends further than his explicit reveal.

Sorry for double-post, can't edit.

Also, the Head on a pole scene would explain why he is viewed as a companion to the Gods. Yes, I say that Ajokli being Kellhus is much more likely than Cnauir and even have some textual evidence it could be the case. Its just hard to square the last bit where he is looking for Kellhus and can't find him. Unless that is, they are one and the same and Ajokli can't comprehend how that is. Its why he can't find him.
I was about to say, I have a hard time squaring either of them being Ajokli unless they would somehow both be him. His reputation has him being too tricky for me to think him just Cnauir and his appearance/possessing Cnauir and other titles make him seem too angry/emotional/greedy to be just Kellhus. But both? I could maybe see it then.

Circa. TGO Q&A Bakker did make comments about individuals like Cnaiur, or perhaps Kosoter, who become akin to walking Topos in life (though, I'd have to go digging for that comment). Kellhus is even moreso a Topos to Earwa for Ajokli than Cnaiur is - Kellhus (until the Mutilated-forthcoming, I suppose) was the true most-violent-of-all-men (or Proyas, poor bastard).

The thought on the other decapitant is Kel, is the thinking that he arranged an escape path in case things got hairy ( which they did when he was surrounded by 100 chorae wielding Consult )? So when he was salted, he saved himself? Bakker says he's dead, count on it, so I think inhabiting the severed head would be a death thwarting move ... but the other head seems significant in the read, for sure. If not Kel, then who?

profgrape had plans to make a thread about some of these considerations... profgrape ;)?
Title: Re: Perspective and answers to open questions
Post by: profgrape on September 29, 2017, 07:22:04 pm
profgrape had plans to make a thread about some of these considerations... profgrape ;)?
profgrape still has plans... stay tuned...
Title: Re: Perspective and answers to open questions
Post by: H on October 02, 2017, 10:48:30 am
What if Ajokli doesn't wield maximal power in the Hells, given his drive to effect the same on Earwa's plane? It's something I haven't teased out yet and has been difficult to do so because so few are considering this line of thought. Perhaps even if he is akin to Hel or Hades, more powerful Ciphrang than himself exist?

Also, H, you'll really enjoy the portion of that latest Stuff to Blow Your Mind regarding the Gods and their relation to the World.

It's possible that for some some reason, he is actually more powerful in Eärwa than he is in the Outside (which could partly explain why he does what he does at all, really).

I listened to about half that podcast, but the volume was so low, it was nearly impossible to hear what Bakker was saying most of the time on my phone.  I do have half an idea what they were talking about in the beginning, because years ago I did read Jaynes' Origins of Consciousness.
Title: Re: Perspective and answers to open questions
Post by: Madness on October 03, 2017, 06:11:19 pm
It's possible that for some some reason, he is actually more powerful in Eärwa than he is in the Outside (which could partly explain why he does what he does at all, really).

Hmm... making a thread :).
Title: Re: Perspective and answers to open questions
Post by: Duskweaver on October 04, 2017, 02:54:49 pm
If you have been so thoroughly conditioned that your soul moves entirely at the will of another, then is your soul not merely an extension of the soul of your manipulator? Are you not a part of him just as much as his own hand? If so, then Cnaiur is a limb of Kellhus, Kellhus a limb of Ajokli, and Ajokli a divine mantle taken up by Cnaiur-Conditioned-by-Kellhus. Then all three are the same soul, and Possession and Apotheosis are the same thing.

Ajokli is both the Trickster and the Prince of Hate. The Prince hates because he is the Trickster's mark. Both are part of the same story, just like Br'er Rabbit and Br'er Fox. The story is their shared soul. It's also a circuit of Watcher and Watched. The Prince hates the Trickster because he sees him for what he really is.
Title: Re: Perspective and answers to open questions
Post by: profgrape on October 04, 2017, 03:04:40 pm
If you have been so thoroughly conditioned that your soul moves entirely at the will of another, then is your soul not merely an extension of the soul of your manipulator? Are you not a part of him just as much as his own hand? If so, then Cnaiur is a limb of Kellhus, Kellhus a limb of Ajokli, and Ajokli a divine mantle taken up by Cnaiur-Conditioned-by-Kellhus. Then all three are the same soul, and Possession and Apotheosis are the same thing.

Ajokli is both the Trickster and the Prince of Hate. The Prince hates because he is the Trickster's mark. Both are part of the same story, just like Br'er Rabbit and Br'er Fox. The story is their shared soul. It's also a circuit of Watcher and Watched. The Prince hates the Trickster because he sees him for what he really is.
This is awesome, Duskweaver.  Ajokli as Trickster/Mark (or Anansi/Leopard if you prefer) reminds me a lot of the duality with Kelmomas and Sarmamas. 
Title: Re: Perspective and answers to open questions
Post by: Madness on October 04, 2017, 05:41:05 pm
If you have been so thoroughly conditioned that your soul moves entirely at the will of another, then is your soul not merely an extension of the soul of your manipulator? Are you not a part of him just as much as his own hand? If so, then Cnaiur is a limb of Kellhus, Kellhus a limb of Ajokli, and Ajokli a divine mantle taken up by Cnaiur-Conditioned-by-Kellhus. Then all three are the same soul, and Possession and Apotheosis are the same thing.

Ajokli is both the Trickster and the Prince of Hate. The Prince hates because he is the Trickster's mark. Both are part of the same story, just like Br'er Rabbit and Br'er Fox. The story is their shared soul. It's also a circuit of Watcher and Watched. The Prince hates the Trickster because he sees him for what he really is.

Lol, as I said, on fire, Duskweaver ;).

Though, in an other other thread, I do wish to claim again that it would seem that Ajokli has access to Kellhus and Cnaiur specifically in range of Golgotterath's Topos because they are winner and runner-up of the Most Damned Soul award.
Title: Re: Perspective and answers to open questions
Post by: Francis Buck on October 19, 2017, 07:38:00 pm
Not sure if it's been brought up, but a further possible indicator that Kellhus = Ajokli is the fact that Ajokli is the "faithless husband" of Gierra, who could align with Esmenent.

I'm not fully in the Kellhus = Ajokli idea, but I think there's a kernel of something there. I personally am further inclined toward Ajokli being "Seswatha", but even that I'm not certain of by any means. I do think that Seswatha is one or more of the God-like entities we know of -- the Meta-God as mentioned in the Last Whelming, or the God of Gods.
Title: Re: Perspective and answers to open questions
Post by: Yellow on October 20, 2017, 06:39:40 am
I've always had this weird feeling that Onkis is Serwe, due to the description of Onkis from the TTT glossary, which reminds me of the way that men fetishize Serwe:

Quote
The Goddess of hope and aspiration... she is portrayed as a prophetess, not of the future, but of the motivations of Men...

and from this entry in the PoN wiki (http://princeofnothing.wikia.com/wiki/Onkis#cite_note-ttt10-2) on Onkis:

Quote
Her idol depicts the severed head of a beautiful woman upon a copper tree.[3]

In the Irreüma in Sumna, her idol is described as:

“The idol worked in white marble, eyes closed with the sunken look of the dead. At first glance she appeared to be the severed head of a woman, beautiful yet vaguely common, mounted on a pole. Anything more than a glance, however, revealed the pole to be a miniature tree, like those cultivated by the ancient Norsirai, only worked in bronze. Branches poked through her parted lips and swept across her face—nature reborn through human lips. Other branches reached behind to break through her frozen hair.”[2]

Emphasis is mine. The description of being "beautiful yet vaguely common" completely describes Serwe in my mind, since she was a slave. Also, isn't the Copper Tree the symbol of the Kuniuric Anasurimbor (as well as Siol, of course), and wasn't Serwe sacrificed on the Circumfix (i.e. Kellhus' "tree"), and didn't the vision that comes to Kellhus while he's on the Circumfix involve the figure sitting beneath a tree? I'm not saying Serwe was the figure, just that Serwe, Kellhus, the figure, and the tree (and therefore Onkis?) are all linked.

Also, the link to the head on the pole is incredibly frustrating. I asked Bakker whether Onkis was the head on the pole in TGO, but he said it wasn't. It must, surely must have something to do with it though, right?

Title: Re: Perspective and answers to open questions
Post by: TLEILAXU on October 20, 2017, 07:29:33 am
Unlikely, given that Serwë is burning in hell.
Title: Re: Perspective and answers to open questions
Post by: Yellow on October 20, 2017, 08:13:01 am
Says Kellhus. The later books stress that pre-meditation is the key to damnation. Serwe was naive and submissive... Maybe Kellhus lies.
Title: Re: Perspective and answers to open questions
Post by: Francis Buck on October 30, 2017, 02:03:12 am
Ah, the Cipher of Serwe...

Considering most of Earwa (which is full of naive, ignorant people) is Damned, the idea that Serwe is also -- unfairly -- Damned, does not strike me as an unrealistic possibility.

My thoughts? In the Circumfix, Serwe was the Jesus figure, and Kellhus was her Prophet, not the other way around as most presume.

Afterall, the one miracle in the series occurred there, and it was SERWE's --no Kellhus's -- heart that Kellhus inexplicably retrieved, the blood dripping from it literally cracking the ground.

Wonder whatever happened to that heart...
Title: Re: Perspective and answers to open questions
Post by: JerakoKayne on October 30, 2017, 06:53:28 am
This is perhaps my greatest question, regarding this series. Damn near everyone is damned (pardon the pun). Everyone. Save perhaps jealous favorites? Extratextual comments (and I haven't seen them all) seemed to be a very dismissive suggestion that the Gods are, quite simply,  "capricious". If there's more to it, I'm interested, but otherwise "salvation" seems no more than a whim, so far.

I wonder how much of it is that, in the author's view anyway, everything's just fuckin damned anyway. We have textual reason enough for that; the Gods have a feast. But why are people even saved, except that it feels good? What the fuck does "salvation" matter, to a soul such the author's to whom salvation seems meaningless? Is there even meaning in looking for it, or is the philosophy presented just self-effacing nihilism?
Title: Re: Perspective and answers to open questions
Post by: Madness on November 04, 2017, 04:53:46 pm
This is perhaps my greatest question, regarding this series. Damn near everyone is damned (pardon the pun). Everyone. Save perhaps jealous favorites? Extratextual comments (and I haven't seen them all) seemed to be a very dismissive suggestion that the Gods are, quite simply,  "capricious". If there's more to it, I'm interested, but otherwise "salvation" seems no more than a whim, so far.

I wonder how much of it is that, in the author's view anyway, everything's just fuckin damned anyway. We have textual reason enough for that; the Gods have a feast. But why are people even saved, except that it feels good? What the fuck does "salvation" matter, to a soul such the author's to whom salvation seems meaningless? Is there even meaning in looking for it, or is the philosophy presented just self-effacing nihilism?

Of the three options Bakker mentioned long ago on ZTS, Redemption is the only one we haven't seen born out in text - as Bakker confirmed that that one Nonman Erratic in TUC did.
Title: Re: Perspective and answers to open questions
Post by: Yellow on November 04, 2017, 06:26:42 pm
What about Esmenet?
Title: Re: Perspective and answers to open questions
Post by: Madness on November 04, 2017, 06:36:27 pm
We just don't know what the Judging Eye is yet.

It's fairly clear to me that Mimara's arc in TAE is about a "Prophetess Coming-Of-Age" story (as is Achamian's the "moving from the doubter to Wizard" narrative). Overly simplifying but TJE is about wanting to be a Witch more than anything. WLW she has some serious Judging Eye moments that she obviously hadn't experience before and has to digest, along with the dispersing the Wight of the Mountain. In TGO she settles Achamian's debate about Judging Eye vs. Dunyain and that Dunyain subsequently claims, in second person even, that she is the key to All-Things (bp). In TUC, she recognizes that her place is among the Damned and that the Ordeal and its horror is hers.

So in the case of Mimara seeing Esmenet as "saved," I just think we're supposed to know what that means by the end of TAE.
Title: Re: Perspective and answers to open questions
Post by: Dora Vee on November 04, 2017, 08:43:17 pm
I think Esmenet and Sorweel count as among the saved. So, that's Salvation. Redemption is something different. Why would you need to redeem someone like Sorweel?
Title: Re: Perspective and answers to open questions
Post by: Madness on November 05, 2017, 03:28:23 am
One of the aphorisms that opens The False Sun, as well as the passage of Kellhus in the Outside in TGO, seem to suggest that the Heavens and Hells are of the same... taste.
Title: Re: Perspective and answers to open questions
Post by: natanaj on May 10, 2018, 08:19:20 pm
Tbh I just thought it was because even though kellhus is a cold-hearted mofo, he still feels a bit of empathy.

Sent from my SM-J700T using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Perspective and answers to open questions
Post by: stuslayer on May 17, 2018, 06:59:16 pm
Here's a thought - and I haven't looked through any other threads to see if it's already been thought of so apologies if it has. What if Kel's continued presence after TUC (dead but not done) is to become the life dreamed of by Metagnostic sorcerers, replacing Seswatha? Maybe this is how he will continue to direct the men of the Circumfix during TNG?
Title: Re: Perspective and answers to open questions
Post by: MSJ on May 17, 2018, 07:09:28 pm
👆, Very clever! I have never, ever heard that before...anywhere.
Title: Re: Perspective and answers to open questions
Post by: stuslayer on May 17, 2018, 07:25:04 pm
Thanks!  ;D Now I feel like I belong here!
Title: Re: Perspective and answers to open questions
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on May 17, 2018, 07:29:19 pm
Here's a thought - and I haven't looked through any other threads to see if it's already been thought of so apologies if it has. What if Kel's continued presence after TUC (dead but not done) is to become the life dreamed of by Metagnostic sorcerers, replacing Seswatha? Maybe this is how he will continue to direct the men of the Circumfix during TNG?

I love this idea, even if I don't think it's very likely it will happen. After all, Kellhus would have had to leave an artifact of some sort for this to work, like Seswatha did. What do you propose this was, and how/when could it have happened? (Not trying to shoot down your theory, just genuinely curious about how it could work.)

If it does happen, I do wonder if an Akka parallel would pop up down the line, subverting the "Kellhus never shits spends several days thinking about twigs and fish" idea. ;)
Title: Re: Perspective and answers to open questions
Post by: stuslayer on May 17, 2018, 07:44:17 pm
Well, I think there are a number of options. It could be the 2nd Decapitant, retrieved by Serwa in the pandemonium during Resumption. Or perhaps a piece of Kel's salted corpse. Or perhaps Serwe's heart, that has unbeknownst to us been sequestered in the home of the Metagnostic sorcerers. Or even Kel has ousted Seswatha and replaced him in the Dreams directly, and Achamian will be the first to Dream Kellhus.
Title: Re: Perspective and answers to open questions
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on May 17, 2018, 10:17:34 pm
Well, I think there are a number of options. It could be the 2nd Decapitant, retrieved by Serwa in the pandemonium during Resumption. Or perhaps a piece of Kel's salted corpse. Or perhaps Serwe's heart, that has unbeknownst to us been sequestered in the home of the Metagnostic sorcerers. Or even Kel has ousted Seswatha and replaced him in the Dreams directly, and Achamian will be the first to Dream Kellhus.

Ah, the second Decapitant - that hadn't occurred to me, but it makes sense. The Decapitant seems, to me, to be the more likely possibility of the 3 you pointed out. It'd be quite hard for "Team Kellhus" to get a hold of his salted corpse now, since it's right in the stronghold of the Consult. And who even knows where Serwë's heart could be right now if it was preserved somehow (Carythusal? The Mandate took residence there post-Shimeh if I remember correctly, would make thematic sense).
Achamian would be in for quite a surprise if this theory turns out to be true and he suddenly finds himself having a Dream from Kellhus' POV...
Title: Re: Perspective and answers to open questions
Post by: MSJ on May 18, 2018, 01:43:33 am
Quote from:  ThoughtofThelli
And who even knows where Serwë's heart could be right now if it was preserved somehow (Carythusal? The Mandate took residence there post-Shimeh if I remember correctly, would make thematic sense).
Achamian would be in for quite a surprise if this theory turns out to be true and he suddenly finds himself having a Dream from Kellhus' POV...

Nah, Serwe heart was burn up at the Circumfix, did you mean Seswatha? Could be Kellhus seen all he needed to know when doing his knife trick on Akka. I agree, it would likely be the decapitant. Damn, I love this, therefore will not come true. ;) 
Title: Re: Perspective and answers to open questions
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on May 18, 2018, 11:15:10 am
Nah, Serwe heart was burn up at the Circumfix, did you mean Seswatha? Could be Kellhus seen all he needed to know when doing his knife trick on Akka. I agree, it would likely be the decapitant. Damn, I love this, therefore will not come true. ;)

I thought we didn't know what had happened to it after Kellhus pulled it from his chest. Guess I completely forgot about it being burned, then...
Then the Decapitant really is the most likely possibility. Though I still think that Carythusal and the Mandate might be involved if Kellhus did indeed follow Seswatha's example. There might be something there, I don't know, instructions, or just information of some kind about the process.
That's just one of the TSA rules, MSJ. If you really want it to happen, it probably won't. ;) It's right there next to "think of the worst thing that could possibly happen, that's probably it" and "if you like this character, they're probably going to die horribly".
Title: Re: Perspective and answers to open questions
Post by: MSJ on May 18, 2018, 08:20:01 pm
Quote from:  ThoughtsofThelli
ThelliI thought we didn't know what had happened to it after Kellhus pulled it from his chest. Guess I completely forgot about it being burned, then...

When Kellhus is cut down from the Circumfix, he pulls "a heart" from his chest and it burst into flames. Now, many have said it was Serwe's. All kinds of speculation on this on here. But, consensus seems to be, he realized that everything was everything, and kinda went to the Outside and actually grasped Serwe's heart. Theres way better explanations than that, just the gist.
Title: Re: Perspective and answers to open questions
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on May 18, 2018, 11:29:24 pm
When Kellhus is cut down from the Circumfix, he pulls "a heart" from his chest and it burst into flames. Now, many have said it was Serwe's. All kinds of speculation on this on here. But, consensus seems to be, he realized that everything was everything, and kinda went to the Outside and actually grasped Serwe's heart. Theres way better explanations than that, just the gist.

I agree with the theory that it was Serwë's, I just didn't remember the part where it burst into flames (that's what rereads are for, when we get there!). :)