The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => The No-God => Topic started by: Lonnie Slidell on October 02, 2017, 12:33:51 am

Title: Achamian as the most powerful sorcerer left alive in the Three Seas.
Post by: Lonnie Slidell on October 02, 2017, 12:33:51 am
It occurred to me while listening to Scott on this podcast:
http://www.stufftoblowyourmind.com/podcasts/consciousness-and-consult.htm
that Drusas Achamian is (assuming he survived the Second Apocalypse) the most powerful sorcerer left alive on humanity's side in the Three Seas and will be the de facto leader of humanity in the war against the Unholy Consult and the forces of the No-God.  So far leadership has not been his forte.  How do you assess his chances?  Do any of us expect him to rise to the challenge?
Title: Re: Achamian as the most powerful sorcerer left alive in the Three Seas.
Post by: MSJ on October 02, 2017, 01:31:53 am
This is the assumption I made in another thread. He is definitely the most powerful sorcerer left alive, unless some Quya are still around.

The Dreams will aid him in leading humanity and finding the key to defeating TNG. And, I don't think it's the Heron Spear either. I think the dream at the end of TTT proves that. Others might not agree, but I think that the Heron Spear had nothing to do with the death of TNG. Here's why. Why would the progenitors create the Carapace and have it be vulnerable to technology they have? No, I think Mimara or maybe Meppa will be key to killing TNG.

But, yes, I think Akka will do just fine rallying humanity. He has a lot on his side. He is the last of the Mandate, who warned humanity for years while being ridiculed. Now, they will seek the sage advice of a Mandate sorcerer. And, I expect his dreams to be integral in the survival of humanity.
Title: Re: Achamian as the most powerful sorcerer left alive in the Three Seas.
Post by: TaoHorror on October 02, 2017, 03:27:28 am
Well, since I'm wrong just about everything - it won't be what I think, which is the only chance they ( humanity ) have is to come together to fight TNG ( Svylvendi, any/all remaining Sorcerers, Zeum, religious leaders, et al ). Knowing Bakker, he'll have Akka hunted, blamed for the failure of TGO ( maybe given his public rejection of Kelhus ) and humanity will fall into civil war before any kind of resistance/plan is cooked up. And when/if there is another "Ordeal" to take TNG on, there will still be power plays, betrayals, deception among the players involved with some fucked up god hunting the leader, etc.
Title: Re: Achamian as the most powerful sorcerer left alive in the Three Seas.
Post by: Sausuna on October 02, 2017, 12:46:39 pm
Here's why. Why would the progenitors create the Carapace and have it be vulnerable to technology they have?
Possibly because the risk to the Carapace was lower when Ark worked properly (might never leave orbit during exterminations). They might have developed the weapons of light prior to conceiving the No-God and thought it best to send their best weaponry along as well. After all, soggomant is thought impenetrable by man, but a weapon of light may do so. Had Kellhus defeated the Consult, they might have been able to cut apart Ark like a roast turkey at Thanksgiving. Why give the only weapons that could hurt their space ship as well?
Title: Re: Achamian as the most powerful sorcerer left alive in the Three Seas.
Post by: TLEILAXU on October 02, 2017, 07:23:31 pm
I think he has good chances of rallying some survivors to weather the incoming mass genocide and eventually repopulate the world after it has been shut.
Title: Re: Achamian as the most powerful sorcerer left alive in the Three Seas.
Post by: Sausuna on October 02, 2017, 07:46:24 pm
I think he has good chances of rallying some survivors to weather the incoming mass genocide and eventually repopulate the world after it has been shut.
Well, that's assuming people can have children after the world is shut. I'm not sure if there is anything commenting on the matter, but it wouldn't surprise me if shutting it would prevent that.
Title: Re: Achamian as the most powerful sorcerer left alive in the Three Seas.
Post by: Redeagl on October 02, 2017, 09:02:32 pm
Good thread. I approve.
Title: Re: Achamian as the most powerful sorcerer left alive in the Three Seas.
Post by: TaoHorror on October 03, 2017, 03:34:02 am
I think he has good chances of rallying some survivors to weather the incoming mass genocide and eventually repopulate the world after it has been shut.
Well, that's assuming people can have children after the world is shut. I'm not sure if there is anything commenting on the matter, but it wouldn't surprise me if shutting it would prevent that.

Well, if dispatching TNG doesn't revitalize fertility, then it is OVER already. That one effect alone dooms humanity same as the non-men. Doesn't make sense to me - kinda makes the 144,000 ceiling odd given it'll come to that naturally if there is no way humans can propagate; TNG could just wait it out.
Title: Re: Achamian as the most powerful sorcerer left alive in the Three Seas.
Post by: Sausuna on October 03, 2017, 04:15:56 am
I think he has good chances of rallying some survivors to weather the incoming mass genocide and eventually repopulate the world after it has been shut.
Well, that's assuming people can have children after the world is shut. I'm not sure if there is anything commenting on the matter, but it wouldn't surprise me if shutting it would prevent that.

Well, if dispatching TNG doesn't revitalize fertility, then it is OVER already. That one effect alone dooms humanity same as the non-men. Doesn't make sense to me - kinda makes the 144,000 ceiling odd given it'll come to that naturally if there is no way humans can propagate; TNG could just wait it out.
I mean, the No-God's continued existence doesn't seem necessary to keeping the world shut, since we know the No-God seemingly can only exist for so long from what Bakker said (he made a comment on it once, if I remember correctly, that the No-God had a time limit of sorts). I'm not saying killing the No-God wouldn't restore child birth, that's assumedly been the case before. But I mean if it manages to succeeded shutting the world.
Title: Re: Achamian as the most powerful sorcerer left alive in the Three Seas.
Post by: TLEILAXU on October 03, 2017, 02:12:34 pm
Why would the world being shut stop people from having children?
Title: Re: Achamian as the most powerful sorcerer left alive in the Three Seas.
Post by: H on October 03, 2017, 02:24:03 pm
Why would the world being shut stop people from having children?

Plausibly, no souls out means no souls in.
Title: Re: Achamian as the most powerful sorcerer left alive in the Three Seas.
Post by: Sausuna on October 03, 2017, 02:48:17 pm
Why would the world being shut stop people from having children?
I'd note again that I'm merely speculating.
But from what I recall (as with everything, I'd have to double check) that the end of TUC referenced the 'cycle of souls'. Then one could take the idea of daimotic metaphysics, that all souls occupy one place, seemingly related to The Outside or linked/related to it. And in Cants of Calling that sleeping people have a connection to the Outside.

My point being, I'm of the mindset that interfering with how souls leave the world may very well interfere with how they enter it.
Title: Re: Achamian as the most powerful sorcerer left alive in the Three Seas.
Post by: TLEILAXU on October 03, 2017, 04:22:26 pm
Why would the world being shut stop people from having children?

Plausibly, no souls out means no souls in.

Why would the world being shut stop people from having children?
I'd note again that I'm merely speculating.
But from what I recall (as with everything, I'd have to double check) that the end of TUC referenced the 'cycle of souls'. Then one could take the idea of daimotic metaphysics, that all souls occupy one place, seemingly related to The Outside or linked/related to it. And in Cants of Calling that sleeping people have a connection to the Outside.

My point being, I'm of the mindset that interfering with how souls leave the world may very well interfere with how they enter it.
But you don't need souls anymore after the world of shut. They're a part of Eärwan metaphysics. After the Outside has been shut you arrive in a world like our world.
Title: Re: Achamian as the most powerful sorcerer left alive in the Three Seas.
Post by: H on October 03, 2017, 04:29:28 pm
But you don't need souls anymore after the world of shut. They're a part of Eärwan metaphysics. After the Outside has been shut you arrive in a world like our world.

Plausible, but we don't know what happens once the world is closed.

Sure, souls aren't needed, but the birth of souled being might be contingent upon the Cycle of Souls.  So, the No-God stopping the Cycle could be why there were no births during it's presence.  Once the world is shut, we don't know, but if the end result is like the means, it could be that no souled beings will ever be born alive.
Title: Re: Achamian as the most powerful sorcerer left alive in the Three Seas.
Post by: Sausuna on October 03, 2017, 04:46:05 pm
But you don't need souls anymore after the world of shut. They're a part of Eärwan metaphysics. After the Outside has been shut you arrive in a world like our world.
As H says, that's possible. But it seems unlikely to me.

Can living beings exist without souls? Sure, we have skin-spies and scranc, for instance. Can men be born without souls? I've seen no evidence of that so far. Seemingly all men have been born with souls and can even live without a proper body (the Amoilas, Shae's strange contraption, somewhat of Malowebi in the Decapitant, and so on). But assuming sealing the world breaks the cycle of souls, it would make more sense to me that men simply cannot make more men, not that birth would continue in a new way. Especially given the effect of the No-God.
Title: Re: Achamian as the most powerful sorcerer left alive in the Three Seas.
Post by: MSJ on October 03, 2017, 04:48:49 pm
Well, we know from the Sagas the there was only stillbirths during the rise of the No-God. Now, we have to take Bakkers comments regarding this subject. That when the Inchies have the Nonmen the inoculation, they discovered the side effect of the womb-plague on accident. That in turn they used it as a side effect of the No GOd. So, it might not be the shutting of souls from TNG rise the creates the stillbirth, but What they learned from the inoculation. Just throwi my that out there.
Title: Re: Achamian as the most powerful sorcerer left alive in the Three Seas.
Post by: H on October 03, 2017, 04:58:59 pm
Well, we know from the Sagas the there was only stillbirths during the rise of the No-God. Now, we have to take Bakkers comments regarding this subject. That when the Inchies have the Nonmen the inoculation, they discovered the side effect of the womb-plague on accident. That in turn they used it as a side effect of the No GOd. So, it might not be the shutting of souls from TNG rise the creates the stillbirth, but What they learned from the inoculation. Just throwi my that out there.

Well, partially, yeah, the Womb-Plague was a happy accident, in the sense that they didn't know in developing the Inoculation that it would sterilize the population.  What they realized though was that this partially fulfilled a role the No-God would play.  So, while I had read Bakker's comment differently at first, the Womb-Plague is totally independent of the No-God, really, just a way to crudely approximate it's effect.
Title: Re: Achamian as the most powerful sorcerer left alive in the Three Seas.
Post by: TLEILAXU on October 03, 2017, 05:01:50 pm
But you don't need souls anymore after the world of shut. They're a part of Eärwan metaphysics. After the Outside has been shut you arrive in a world like our world.

Plausible, but we don't know what happens once the world is closed.

Sure, souls aren't needed, but the birth of souled being might be contingent upon the Cycle of Souls.  So, the No-God stopping the Cycle could be why there were no births during it's presence.  Once the world is shut, we don't know, but if the end result is like the means, it could be that no souled beings will ever be born alive.

But you don't need souls anymore after the world of shut. They're a part of Eärwan metaphysics. After the Outside has been shut you arrive in a world like our world.
As H says, that's possible. But it seems unlikely to me.

Can living beings exist without souls? Sure, we have skin-spies and scranc, for instance. Can men be born without souls? I've seen no evidence of that so far. Seemingly all men have been born with souls and can even live without a proper body (the Amoilas, Shae's strange contraption, somewhat of Malowebi in the Decapitant, and so on). But assuming sealing the world breaks the cycle of souls, it would make more sense to me that men simply cannot make more men, not that birth would continue in a new way. Especially given the effect of the No-God.
Keep in mind that Eärwan metaphysics are strange and arbitrary and dependent on Divine wills. Breaking the cycle of souls -> no more humans can be born because humans are ensouled beings in the World, but after the Outside is shut, and the Gods cease to exist (in a sense, as they have never existed in the first place), there's no such thing as a soul anymore.
It also doesn't make sense from a story-telling perspective since the World being shut is supposed to be analogous to our own crash-space.
Title: Re: Achamian as the most powerful sorcerer left alive in the Three Seas.
Post by: H on October 03, 2017, 05:05:58 pm
Keep in mind that Eärwan metaphysics are strange and arbitrary and dependent on Divine wills. Breaking the cycle of souls -> no more humans can be born because humans are ensouled beings in the World, but after the Outside is shut, and the Gods cease to exist (in a sense, as they have never existed in the first place), there's no such thing as a soul anymore.
It also doesn't make sense from a story-telling perspective since the World being shut is supposed to be analogous to our own crash-space.

That could be true, or that the allegory ends with our species ending, because meaningful beings have no place in a meaningless world.
Title: Re: Achamian as the most powerful sorcerer left alive in the Three Seas.
Post by: TLEILAXU on October 03, 2017, 05:09:46 pm
Keep in mind that Eärwan metaphysics are strange and arbitrary and dependent on Divine wills. Breaking the cycle of souls -> no more humans can be born because humans are ensouled beings in the World, but after the Outside is shut, and the Gods cease to exist (in a sense, as they have never existed in the first place), there's no such thing as a soul anymore.
It also doesn't make sense from a story-telling perspective since the World being shut is supposed to be analogous to our own crash-space.

That could be true, or that the allegory ends with our species ending, because meaningful beings have no place in a meaningless world.
Unless you are willing/capable of reaching for the Absolute.
Title: Re: Achamian as the most powerful sorcerer left alive in the Three Seas.
Post by: Sausuna on October 03, 2017, 05:21:12 pm
But you don't need souls anymore after the world of shut. They're a part of Eärwan metaphysics. After the Outside has been shut you arrive in a world like our world.

Plausible, but we don't know what happens once the world is closed.

Sure, souls aren't needed, but the birth of souled being might be contingent upon the Cycle of Souls.  So, the No-God stopping the Cycle could be why there were no births during it's presence.  Once the world is shut, we don't know, but if the end result is like the means, it could be that no souled beings will ever be born alive.

But you don't need souls anymore after the world of shut. They're a part of Eärwan metaphysics. After the Outside has been shut you arrive in a world like our world.
As H says, that's possible. But it seems unlikely to me.

Can living beings exist without souls? Sure, we have skin-spies and scranc, for instance. Can men be born without souls? I've seen no evidence of that so far. Seemingly all men have been born with souls and can even live without a proper body (the Amoilas, Shae's strange contraption, somewhat of Malowebi in the Decapitant, and so on). But assuming sealing the world breaks the cycle of souls, it would make more sense to me that men simply cannot make more men, not that birth would continue in a new way. Especially given the effect of the No-God.
Keep in mind that Eärwan metaphysics are strange and arbitrary and dependent on Divine wills. Breaking the cycle of souls -> no more humans can be born because humans are ensouled beings in the World, but after the Outside is shut, and the Gods cease to exist (in a sense, as they have never existed in the first place), there's no such thing as a soul anymore.
It also doesn't make sense from a story-telling perspective since the World being shut is supposed to be analogous to our own crash-space.
I don't necessarily agree, unless you have more wording than I do. What gives you reason to think the Outside being shut means the Gods cease to exist? Several times Shutting the World has been referenced to as 'starving the Gods' and they would be 'howling at the gates'. Kellhus also described it as 'striking the Outside from the hip of the Real.' I take it to mean the Outside will be separated from the world, but not that the Outside will cease to exist entirely.
Title: Re: Achamian as the most powerful sorcerer left alive in the Three Seas.
Post by: H on October 03, 2017, 05:30:18 pm
Unless you are willing/capable of reaching for the Absolute.

If such a thing is even possible.  The fact that the Progenitors failed means it could be impossible.  Sort of like approaching absolute zero.  Close is possible, but nearly impossible to make that last jump.
Title: Re: Achamian as the most powerful sorcerer left alive in the Three Seas.
Post by: TLEILAXU on October 03, 2017, 06:07:09 pm
But you don't need souls anymore after the world of shut. They're a part of Eärwan metaphysics. After the Outside has been shut you arrive in a world like our world.

Plausible, but we don't know what happens once the world is closed.

Sure, souls aren't needed, but the birth of souled being might be contingent upon the Cycle of Souls.  So, the No-God stopping the Cycle could be why there were no births during it's presence.  Once the world is shut, we don't know, but if the end result is like the means, it could be that no souled beings will ever be born alive.

But you don't need souls anymore after the world of shut. They're a part of Eärwan metaphysics. After the Outside has been shut you arrive in a world like our world.
As H says, that's possible. But it seems unlikely to me.

Can living beings exist without souls? Sure, we have skin-spies and scranc, for instance. Can men be born without souls? I've seen no evidence of that so far. Seemingly all men have been born with souls and can even live without a proper body (the Amoilas, Shae's strange contraption, somewhat of Malowebi in the Decapitant, and so on). But assuming sealing the world breaks the cycle of souls, it would make more sense to me that men simply cannot make more men, not that birth would continue in a new way. Especially given the effect of the No-God.
Keep in mind that Eärwan metaphysics are strange and arbitrary and dependent on Divine wills. Breaking the cycle of souls -> no more humans can be born because humans are ensouled beings in the World, but after the Outside is shut, and the Gods cease to exist (in a sense, as they have never existed in the first place), there's no such thing as a soul anymore.
It also doesn't make sense from a story-telling perspective since the World being shut is supposed to be analogous to our own crash-space.
I don't necessarily agree, unless you have more wording than I do. What gives you reason to think the Outside being shut means the Gods cease to exist? Several times Shutting the World has been referenced to as 'starving the Gods' and they would be 'howling at the gates'. Kellhus also described it as 'striking the Outside from the hip of the Real.' I take it to mean the Outside will be separated from the world, but not that the Outside will cease to exist entirely.
It's how I interpret things based on all kinds of things, such as the very wording in "starving" the Gods, but also the part about the No-God/Ark changing eternity,
Quote
The Gods are pretty much witless now. Imagine a virus erasing your memories and your meta-memories simultaneously. Theological Alzheimers.
etc. The way I see it, the World being shut would mean the Gods being erased.

Unless you are willing/capable of reaching for the Absolute.

If such a thing is even possible.  The fact that the Progenitors failed means it could be impossible.  Sort of like approaching absolute zero.  Close is possible, but nearly impossible to make that last jump.
I'm not sure they failed in the context of the books, but yes surely it's hard to see how we could ever escape the chains of causaility in this world.
Title: Re: Achamian as the most powerful sorcerer left alive in the Three Seas.
Post by: Madness on October 03, 2017, 06:26:33 pm
Tangent aside, on topic, I'll contest the opening post.

While Achamian will certainly be one of the most accomplished sorcerers remaining, I'm Team Serwa and really hope she has survived. Also, Achamian is the Prophetess' first Disciple. Achamian will follow Mimara and who knows what where she might lead.

Otherwise, given that TNG begins a few weeks after the disaster at Golgotterath and many of our previous principles are all with the retreating Ordeal, they aren't going to be doing much to coordinate and lead the remaining pockets of humanity.
Title: Re: Achamian as the most powerful sorcerer left alive in the Three Seas.
Post by: Sausuna on October 03, 2017, 06:32:53 pm
But you don't need souls anymore after the world of shut. They're a part of Eärwan metaphysics. After the Outside has been shut you arrive in a world like our world.

Plausible, but we don't know what happens once the world is closed.

Sure, souls aren't needed, but the birth of souled being might be contingent upon the Cycle of Souls.  So, the No-God stopping the Cycle could be why there were no births during it's presence.  Once the world is shut, we don't know, but if the end result is like the means, it could be that no souled beings will ever be born alive.

But you don't need souls anymore after the world of shut. They're a part of Eärwan metaphysics. After the Outside has been shut you arrive in a world like our world.
As H says, that's possible. But it seems unlikely to me.

Can living beings exist without souls? Sure, we have skin-spies and scranc, for instance. Can men be born without souls? I've seen no evidence of that so far. Seemingly all men have been born with souls and can even live without a proper body (the Amoilas, Shae's strange contraption, somewhat of Malowebi in the Decapitant, and so on). But assuming sealing the world breaks the cycle of souls, it would make more sense to me that men simply cannot make more men, not that birth would continue in a new way. Especially given the effect of the No-God.
Keep in mind that Eärwan metaphysics are strange and arbitrary and dependent on Divine wills. Breaking the cycle of souls -> no more humans can be born because humans are ensouled beings in the World, but after the Outside is shut, and the Gods cease to exist (in a sense, as they have never existed in the first place), there's no such thing as a soul anymore.
It also doesn't make sense from a story-telling perspective since the World being shut is supposed to be analogous to our own crash-space.
I don't necessarily agree, unless you have more wording than I do. What gives you reason to think the Outside being shut means the Gods cease to exist? Several times Shutting the World has been referenced to as 'starving the Gods' and they would be 'howling at the gates'. Kellhus also described it as 'striking the Outside from the hip of the Real.' I take it to mean the Outside will be separated from the world, but not that the Outside will cease to exist entirely.
It's how I interpret things based on all kinds of things, such as the very wording in "starving" the Gods, but also the part about the No-God/Ark changing eternity,
Quote
The Gods are pretty much witless now. Imagine a virus erasing your memories and your meta-memories simultaneously. Theological Alzheimers.
etc. The way I see it, the World being shut would mean the Gods being erased.
But even that quote is only relating to the God's memories and awareness more than their existence. We might just have to agree to disagree, but the language seems to much more imply mere separation to me- striking from the hip, shutting the world, starving at the gates. None of these things imply destruction to me. Nor some sort of temporal change that would also rewrite the history of existence. This is even assuming on your part from where souls come from, which also seems equally unclear.
Title: Re: Achamian as the most powerful sorcerer left alive in the Three Seas.
Post by: Swayal Serpent on October 10, 2017, 12:56:34 am
sorry if this is off topic a bit, but did i miss something? I thought that Sacarees was still very much alive at the end of TUC. I know theres a good chance he died in the chaos at golgotterath, but as far as we know hes still breathing. So, isnt sacarees the most powerful schoolman left? And thats assuming Serwa didnt make it, which I think is unlikely
Title: Re: Achamian as the most powerful sorcerer left alive in the Three Seas.
Post by: MSJ on October 10, 2017, 09:36:56 am
Quote from:  Swayal
sorry if this is off topic a bit, but did i miss something? I thought that Sacarees was still very much alive at the end of TUC. I know theres a good chance he died in the chaos at golgotterath, but as far as we know hes still breathing. So, isnt sacarees the most powerful schoolman left? And thats assuming Serwa didnt make it, which I think is unlikely.


I think he might be alive, but, Akka would utterly ruin him...utterly. I don't care if he uttered a Meta cant or not. Akka underestimates himself, along with everyone else. Akka will cause ruin!
Title: Re: Achamian as the most powerful sorcerer left alive in the Three Seas.
Post by: Madness on October 10, 2017, 03:56:22 pm
sorry if this is off topic a bit, but did i miss something? I thought that Sacarees was still very much alive at the end of TUC. I know theres a good chance he died in the chaos at golgotterath, but as far as we know hes still breathing. So, isnt sacarees the most powerful schoolman left? And thats assuming Serwa didnt make it, which I think is unlikely

I think he might be alive, but, Akka would utterly ruin him...utterly. I don't care if he uttered a Meta cant or not. Akka underestimates himself, along with everyone else. Akka will cause ruin!

Lol, right, Saccarees. Wow, I just noticed how awkward those two Es are.

Humanity in Earwa needs all the help it can get. But the retreating Ordeal probably isn't going to impact the defense of the Three Seas, given that TNG picks up weeks after TUC.
Title: Re: Achamian as the most powerful sorcerer left alive in the Three Seas.
Post by: Sausuna on October 10, 2017, 04:03:32 pm
sorry if this is off topic a bit, but did i miss something? I thought that Sacarees was still very much alive at the end of TUC. I know theres a good chance he died in the chaos at golgotterath, but as far as we know hes still breathing. So, isnt sacarees the most powerful schoolman left? And thats assuming Serwa didnt make it, which I think is unlikely

I think he might be alive, but, Akka would utterly ruin him...utterly. I don't care if he uttered a Meta cant or not. Akka underestimates himself, along with everyone else. Akka will cause ruin!

Lol, right, Saccarees. Wow, I just noticed how awkward those two Es are.

Humanity in Earwa needs all the help it can get. But the retreating Ordeal probably isn't going to impact the defense of the Three Seas, given that TNG picks up weeks after TUC.
Well, if Serwa survived, she can teleport (along with a couple others). And Saccarees theoretically can try. Otherwise, probably not. I doubt the others even have the means of survival for the journey back. Unless they grabbed some Quya corpses to burn.
Title: Re: Achamian as the most powerful sorcerer left alive in the Three Seas.
Post by: Madness on October 10, 2017, 04:27:52 pm
Well, if Serwa survived, she can teleport (along with a couple others). And Saccarees theoretically can try. Otherwise, probably not. I doubt the others even have the means of survival for the journey back. Unless they grabbed some Quya corpses to burn.

There is the possibility some of the Quya survived the Battle as well?
Title: Re: Achamian as the most powerful sorcerer left alive in the Three Seas.
Post by: Sausuna on October 10, 2017, 05:34:45 pm
Well, if Serwa survived, she can teleport (along with a couple others). And Saccarees theoretically can try. Otherwise, probably not. I doubt the others even have the means of survival for the journey back. Unless they grabbed some Quya corpses to burn.

There is the possibility some of the Quya survived the Battle as well?
Not quite what I meant. I mean that the chance of survival for an ordinary Ordealsman would probably be to burn and eat a Quya. Though, assuming they want to chance 'The Ash' instead of 'The Meat'. But yes, I suppose it is possible some Quya survived. But I rank it unlikely as even the organized Sorcerers were ravaged by the organization of the No-God Horde. Their disorder would likely make retreat difficult.

Though, I suppose the No-God is the worst horrible memory any of them might have faced before. So it could refocus them, perhaps.
Title: Re: Achamian as the most powerful sorcerer left alive in the Three Seas.
Post by: Madness on October 12, 2017, 05:48:42 pm
Well, if Serwa survived, she can teleport (along with a couple others). And Saccarees theoretically can try. Otherwise, probably not. I doubt the others even have the means of survival for the journey back. Unless they grabbed some Quya corpses to burn.

There is the possibility some of the Quya survived the Battle as well?
Not quite what I meant. I mean that the chance of survival for an ordinary Ordealsman would probably be to burn and eat a Quya. Though, assuming they want to chance 'The Ash' instead of 'The Meat'. But yes, I suppose it is possible some Quya survived. But I rank it unlikely as even the organized Sorcerers were ravaged by the organization of the No-God Horde. Their disorder would likely make retreat difficult.

Though, I suppose the No-God is the worst horrible memory any of them might have faced before. So it could refocus them, perhaps.

Lol, I'd imagine the Nonmen wouldn't be thrilled with Achamian's use of Nil'giccas and Cu'jara Cinmoi before him, much less if he disseminated that knowledge to the Ordeal.

+1 on the thought regarding the No-God snapping the Cunoroi back to present.
Title: Re: Achamian as the most powerful sorcerer left alive in the Three Seas.
Post by: Lonnie Slidell on November 30, 2017, 06:01:38 pm
Philosophical zombies, anyone?  A world that was shut might simply become like our world, inhabited by beings who are sentient but have no souls.
Title: Re: Achamian as the most powerful sorcerer left alive in the Three Seas.
Post by: Wilshire on November 30, 2017, 06:38:58 pm
Philosophical zombies, anyone?  A world that was shut might simply become like our world, inhabited by beings who are sentient but have no souls.
p-zombies have been brought up several times before, but I'm not the person to have that conversation (I don't get it).  You're on the right track though, I think.
Title: Re: Achamian as the most powerful sorcerer left alive in the Three Seas.
Post by: TaoHorror on December 01, 2017, 03:15:44 am
Hmm, think I'm getting lost with the recent comments ( which is quite in character for those of you who know me ). Are we saying that if the world is "shut", the remaining denizens won't have a soul anymore ( ergo, p-zombies )? I just thought the souls would be "trapped" on Earwa - where else would they go if they couldn't reach the Outside?
Title: Re: Achamian as the most powerful sorcerer left alive in the Three Seas.
Post by: Wilshire on December 06, 2017, 07:52:27 pm
I believe the train of thought is this:

Gods make Meaning, Meaning makes Sorcery. No Gods, no Meaning, no Magic.
In the same vein, The Outside makes Souls, Souls inhabit Bodies. No Outside, no souls.

I'm not sure that makes sense either - but that seems to be what people are saying, maybe.
Title: Re: Achamian as the most powerful sorcerer left alive in the Three Seas.
Post by: MSJ on December 06, 2017, 09:17:09 pm
Quote from:  Wilshire
I believe the train of thought is this:

Gods make Meaning, Meaning makes Sorcery. No Gods, no Meaning, no Magic.
In the same vein, The Outside makes Souls, Souls inhabit Bodies. No Outside, no souls.

I'm not sure that makes sense either - but that seems to be what people are saying, maybe.

I won't argue you're line of thinking, it makes sense and seems obviously....correct. But, while the Womb Plague is happening, the Outside has never been shut. Not now, not during the First Apocalypse.

I think Bakker's answer about when the Inchies inoculated the Nonmen and "found" that the side effect killed women, "the found a crude tool for at least part of the No-Gods function.'. Its why I can't reckon that last part of the statement. No Outside, no souls. Because, the Outside isn't shut. Its something else. What? I've no clue, but it goes directly in with TNG and is, imho, a bio-weapon of some sort.
Title: Re: Achamian as the most powerful sorcerer left alive in the Three Seas.
Post by: Wilshire on December 07, 2017, 12:20:53 pm
MSJ, I don't think p-zombies (which I don't understand anyway) are different than the mechanisms used for shutting the world. Like, an effect of what happens post-Consult victory.

I also think you're combining two separate events. There's the time that the Inchoroi killed all the women, and the time that all human babies were born sterile. The first event the Inchoroi physically "inoculated" all the non-people to make them immortal - and it killed the women. The second event, something weird happened connected to the rise of the No-God, and all babies were born dead.

Not that this is the right thread, lol, but you don't think the dead babies are a meta-physical phenomenon? You think its strictly biological - some kind of world wide virus (or whatever) that kills all the unborn?
Title: Re: Achamian as the most powerful sorcerer left alive in the Three Seas.
Post by: Moosehunter on December 07, 2017, 01:59:37 pm
Quote

Not that this is the right thread, lol, but you don't think the dead babies are a meta-physical phenomenon? You think its strictly biological - some kind of world wide virus (or whatever) that kills all the unborn?

I've always suspected that Bakker didn't think this one through when he came up with it.

Is the world sealed when we reach 144k souls remaining or is it permanently closed when we reach that figure?

The fact (well, according to the dragon) that souls "pass no further" when the No God is active suggests that the Outside is closed immediately upon resumption. If souls cannot get out then possibly souls cannot get in and that is why all babies are stillborn.

However i would not have thought that souls were linked to consciousness given that the weapons races are conscious but soulless , and some nonmen are still conscious but their souls have achieved oblivion. I may have misinterpreted the nonman part however.

Do souled races operate to different rules? Did Bakker mistakenly not flesh out the idea properly during the PON trilogy? Or is it intentionally vague? I really wouldn't care what the answer was if i thought we would ever get an answer.
Title: Re: Achamian as the most powerful sorcerer left alive in the Three Seas.
Post by: Wilshire on December 07, 2017, 02:05:20 pm
Comes down to the age old question, what is the no-god? Many think its some kind of soul vacuum. Given TUC, at least Ajokli was able to very directly interact with Celmomas, so it seems that while the no-god interrupts the outside in some way due to the whole no babies thing, the Gods are still able to interact. And, obviously, magic still works too. So its not a simple open/close dichotomy - probably something more like a bad connection to a cellphone tower. You can still get service, but its intermittent and/or weak.
Title: Re: Achamian as the most powerful sorcerer left alive in the Three Seas.
Post by: MSJ on December 07, 2017, 02:29:43 pm
I actually have no dann clue. I'm actually with Moosehunter. Because, Bakker's answer suggests that from the Inoculation, the Consult found a "dread weapon for at least part of the No Gods function.". I can't reckon the the text with that answer. I'm with you, the text seems to suggest metaphysical, Bakker's answer though physical. To me, they don't align and its why I take every answer from Bakker with a grain of salt. Cool answer to a question, doesn't back itself up in the text and we get a lot of those. :shrugs:

I've been trying to parse between the two for a long time now. And, again, I think Bakker is more Ajokli than Kellhus...
Title: Re: Achamian as the most powerful sorcerer left alive in the Three Seas.
Post by: MSJ on December 07, 2017, 02:58:53 pm
By the way, I don't mean to insult Bakker's intelligence, I think that's unquestioned. Its just I don't think he ever expected this level of scrutiny. He has ALOT of cool ideas, that never get fleshed out. "No questions about haloes!", to me, is a misdirection on his part. He ain't answering it until he has the proper answer.

I'm sorry to put it this way. But, I've been around a lot of very intelligent human beings and when they underestimate you, they think they can Bullshit you. That's my vibe. I think everything from the metaphysical to the physical is intentionally vague and contradictory that he thought we'd be confounded and overlook, or forget. Thats the only way I can reckon most of his answers to questions, against the text. Then some make sense. Which confuses the fuck all outta me. So, I know the man is unquestionably intelligent.
Title: Re: Achamian as the most powerful sorcerer left alive in the Three Seas.
Post by: Wilshire on December 07, 2017, 03:53:58 pm
I actually have no dann clue. I'm actually with Moosehunter. Because, Bakker's answer suggests that from the Inoculation, the Consult found a "dread weapon for at least part of the No Gods function."
That's what I'm saying - the Inoculation was a drug of some description the Inchoroi used on the Nonmen. This is not the same thing as the womb plague.

"dread weapon for at least part of the no gods function" - I don't know the context of this, so correct me if I'm wrong. To me "dread weapon" is an indication that the Inoculation, which killed half the nonmen and stopping them from breeding, helped accomplish the 144k goal. The 144k being 'part of the no gods function'.

All of that is physical/biological/mundane warfare. Remember the No-God wasn't even in play during the Inoculation. The Inchoroi still hadn't realized that their 144k plan needed something more - specifically the No-God - to shut the world (which is why it hadn't worked prior to earwa).

I can't reckon the the text with that answer. I'm with you, the text seems to suggest metaphysical, Bakker's answer though physical. To me, they don't align and its why I take every answer from Bakker with a grain of salt. Cool answer to a question, doesn't back itself up in the text and we get a lot of those. :shrugs:

I still think you're confusing two separate things as one event. The Womb Plague only happened when the No-God came, and has nothing to do with the inoculation. Unless the quote is specifically referring to the Womb Plague and not the inoculation, I don't see the conflict.

Bakker...

I think he spent a lot of time and effort preserving the mystery and probably will never want to do a 'tell all Q/A'. His answers are to vaguely clear up mistakes/miscommunication without giving it away. A magic trick only works if you can see the magician but don't know the trick - so if Bakker reads a question and realizes that the curtain was still down when he did the trick, he tries to tell us what we should have seen, which isn't to say he's giving an answer.

Hopefully that makes sense. The text is unquestionably supposed to be a riddle or some kind, and it also unquestionably has mistakes and wasn't executed perfectly. Asking for answers puts him in a awkward position of trying to re-explain what he was trying to do without giving away the secret. So yeah, his answers are cagey and often unsatisfying.

Also, I think he expected scrutiny, but doubt he expected that he himself would have to answer to it lol. So his words end up being a bit of a contradictory mess. A cagey off-the-cuff answer isn't going to be as fleshed out as his books, and he often ends up making the confusion worse . I give him the benefit of the doubt though -definitely possible that he's just a dick ;).
Title: Re: Achamian as the most powerful sorcerer left alive in the Three Seas.
Post by: MSJ on December 07, 2017, 04:10:59 pm
Lol. I don't think he's a dick. I just think if he doesn't have something fleshed out, he'll toss you scraps and expect you to be satisfied.  When its all too fucking complicated, to make sense to my tiny brain.

The haloes. You know where I think he ducked up and can't reckon an answer? The skin-spy. How can the skin-spy recreate it? Then someone as holy as Mimara having haloes, but different color? I think any answer he gives will breakdown because an unsouled being had the effect. Just my opinion.

No, I'm not conflating two seperate events. What I took from his answer was that the Inchies found out something they could use, in part, with the No-God. Two separate events, sure. But, his answer makes it seem if they found a way to accomplish the no babies part, that's the implication I got from the question and the answer. 
Title: Re: Achamian as the most powerful sorcerer left alive in the Three Seas.
Post by: TLEILAXU on December 07, 2017, 05:02:50 pm
I actually have no dann clue. I'm actually with Moosehunter. Because, Bakker's answer suggests that from the Inoculation, the Consult found a "dread weapon for at least part of the No Gods function."
That's what I'm saying - the Inoculation was a drug of some description the Inchoroi used on the Nonmen. This is not the same thing as the womb plague.

"dread weapon for at least part of the no gods function" - I don't know the context of this, so correct me if I'm wrong. To me "dread weapon" is an indication that the Inoculation, which killed half the nonmen and stopping them from breeding, helped accomplish the 144k goal. The 144k being 'part of the no gods function'.

All of that is physical/biological/mundane warfare. Remember the No-God wasn't even in play during the Inoculation. The Inchoroi still hadn't realized that their 144k plan needed something more - specifically the No-God - to shut the world (which is why it hadn't worked prior to earwa).
What makes you think that? Ark was in control before the crash, why would you assume it didn't know about the No-God? This is what Aurang says in The False Sun:

Quote
“Other Grounds?” Titirga cried with a derisive bark, and why not? when the Ground was by definition the basis of everything. It was just as Aurax had said. Truth becomes ignorance when Men make gods of Deceit.

“I know how this sounds,” Shaeönanra said. “But what of the Ark? The Inchoroi? They prove the existence of other Grounds, do they not? Grounds like our own!”

“Noooo…” the glistening Inchoroi rasped, speaking an archaic intonation of Ihrimsu, his inhuman voice falling like a flake of ice upon sweaty skin. He had stepped into Shaeönanra’s blind flank and now loomed over him, his frame a sleek motley, like fish skinned and sutured together. “Not like your own.”

The Hero-Mage fairly gaped at the creature.

“It speaks to me.”

“This Ground …” Aurang continued, oblivious to his transgression. “This Ground is the one Promised. Salvation lies within your grasp. Salvation in this life…”
Title: Re: Achamian as the most powerful sorcerer left alive in the Three Seas.
Post by: Wilshire on December 07, 2017, 05:16:16 pm
What does that show? The Inchoroi probably thought every planet was the promised land.
Granted, no other planet has sorcery, which makes Earwa special, but even then that doesn't point to knowing anything of the No-God. If they knew of it, they'd have tried to use it, and even if they did knew and did try to make it work, it never turned on, so I'm sure they long since abandoned it.

No. The No-God was new to Earwa.
Title: Re: Achamian as the most powerful sorcerer left alive in the Three Seas.
Post by: TLEILAXU on December 07, 2017, 05:49:50 pm
What does that show? The Inchoroi probably thought every planet was the promised land.
Granted, no other planet has sorcery, which makes Earwa special, but even then that doesn't point to knowing anything of the No-God. If they knew of it, they'd have tried to use it, and even if they did knew and did try to make it work, it never turned on, so I'm sure they long since abandoned it.

No. The No-God was new to Earwa.
That's not all what I interpret. I see this as Eärwa literally being special, which is also probably the reason why Ark crashed. Something about this world sets it apart from the rest of the universe. They used the No-God on other worlds, but were unable to shut off the Outside. Also, take Bakkers comment about the No-God and e.g. Kelmomas:
"And lastly, it's not the blood that enables the Carapace, its the ability of the brain to functionally emulate that of an original Insertant." How would there be an original Insertant if Ark didn't know about the No-God? It was an extension of itself, as the Mutilated also mention.
Title: Re: Achamian as the most powerful sorcerer left alive in the Three Seas.
Post by: Wilshire on December 07, 2017, 06:12:39 pm
That's not all what I interpret. I see this as Eärwa literally being special,
agreed. I'm not arguing that Earwa isn't special, but that they likely thought every one was special - else why bother exterminating them.

which is also probably the reason why Ark crashed.
Could be. No issues there.

Something about this world sets it apart from the rest of the universe.
Right, that's pretty obvious.

They used the No-God on other worlds,
No idea how you got to that conclusion.

but were unable to shut off the Outside.
Right.

Also, take Bakkers comment about the No-God and e.g. Kelmomas:
"And lastly, it's not the blood that enables the Carapace, its the ability of the brain to functionally emulate that of an original Insertant."
Did he say original "insertant"? I thought he said original creators. Doesn't matter though:

How would there be an original Insertant if Ark didn't know about the No-God? It was an extension of itself, as the Mutilated also mention.
You answered your own question. The Ark is the No-God, but something something Earwa short circuited it. The Ark was the original insertant, in that, the Ark was basically the original no-god. The Sarcophagus is a stripped down version that can move around without using all the power of several suns. ... In essence, we're both right?

The No-God needed something to approximate the Ark brain so it could move around without the ark directing it ... directly. My present guess is that the ark via neuropuncture took a brain that was close enough, did some rewiring to approximate itself, and sent its baby out into the word to kill all humans.

I maintain that the Inchoroi didn't know anything of the No-God. They're a dumb weapon race with little idea of what the Ark was doing or wanted. Shae and the Consult created the No-God as we know it. Shae being a big key here, as he was smarter than all the living inchoroi, and apparently smarter than most any man in history save the dunyain. I assume given that the original NG had the chorae, that it was a tekne creation.

At any rate, imo the inoculation was a bioweapon the inchoroi made with the tekne.
The womb plague was something different related to the rise of the no-god.
Title: Re: Achamian as the most powerful sorcerer left alive in the Three Seas.
Post by: TLEILAXU on December 07, 2017, 06:36:30 pm
Did he say original "insertant"? I thought he said original creators. Doesn't matter though:

How would there be an original Insertant if Ark didn't know about the No-God? It was an extension of itself, as the Mutilated also mention.
You answered your own question. The Ark is the No-God, but something something Earwa short circuited it. The Ark was the original insertant, in that, the Ark was basically the original no-god. The Sarcophagus is a stripped down version that can move around without using all the power of several suns. ... In essence, we're both right?

The No-God needed something to approximate the Ark brain so it could move around without the ark directing it ... directly. My present guess is that the ark via neuropuncture took a brain that was close enough, did some rewiring to approximate itself, and sent its baby out into the word to kill all humans.

I maintain that the Inchoroi didn't know anything of the No-God. They're a dumb weapon race with little idea of what the Ark was doing or wanted. Shae and the Consult created the No-God as we know it. Shae being a big key here, as he was smarter than all the living inchoroi, and apparently smarter than most any man in history save the dunyain. I assume given that the original NG had the chorae, that it was a tekne creation.

At any rate, imo the inoculation was a bioweapon the inchoroi made with the tekne.
The womb plague was something different related to the rise of the no-god.
He did say Insertant. Also, here's a quote from the Unholy Consultation thread.

I don't have a question prepared on short notice, so the first thing that comes to mind is to ask about Ark.  It was my presumption that the No-God apparatus (the sarcophagus) functioned differently before Ark-fall.  My supposition would be then that while Ark was fully functional, the souls of the Progenitors would have been contained therein, meaning that on other worlds, it would have been unnecessary to find a suitable surrogate.  Of course, the presumption then would be that what makes a soul a suitable alternative is not specifically Anisûrimbor blood, but rather similarity to the Progenitors.  Could this be an accurate summation?


Plug and play, basically. Having lost the original store of circuits, the Consult had no choice but to keep rummaging through the heap the World provided. The Anasurimbor, for whatever reason, have proven apt historically.
I take this to mean Ark produced these circuits to power the carapace. Also, if the No-God wasn't known then why wouldn't Bakker refute it in this quote? And why would the mutilated consider the Object i.e. the Carapace and extension of the Ark's will if the Object and the No-God arising when an insertant is inserted were unknown to it?

Shae's genius was somehow figuring either that the Carapace needed to be restored for success, and/or how to restore it, aside from the missing circuit-connector.

Yes I agree that the womb-plague was a separate thing, a coincidence that helped reduce the number of souls toward that 144k goal.
Title: Re: Achamian as the most powerful sorcerer left alive in the Three Seas.
Post by: Wilshire on December 07, 2017, 06:50:20 pm
He did say Insertant.
Fair enough.

Also, if the No-God wasn't known then why wouldn't Bakker refute it in this quote?
That's not a rabbit hole I care to go down. Bakker said what he said. Speculating on his intent and his reasons doesn't interest me, sorry.

And why would the mutilated consider the Object i.e. the Carapace and extension of the Ark's will if the Object and the No-God arising when an insertant is inserted were unknown to it?
What TUC's consult know, is not what The Consult of past know, nor is the Old Consult the same as the Inchoroi. The Inchoroi just did what they were told and knew very little of anything.

Shae's genius was somehow figuring out the No-God needed to be restored.

That it incorporated a bunch of chorae makes me believe it had something specific to do with Earwa/Magic/Consult. I realize that contradicts what I said earlier -
 I just think it took Shae and all his understanding to invent it.Maybe the Dunyain improved on the design to make it work properly with the boostrapped chorae version...

There might be a quote somewhere that mentions the Consult discovering plans for the no god in the ship...

Yes I agree that the womb-plague was a separate thing, a coincidence that helped reduce the number of souls toward that 144k goal.
That was mostly to close out the other conversation with MSJ, but I'm glad someone agrees with me though :).
Title: Re: Achamian as the most powerful sorcerer left alive in the Three Seas.
Post by: MSJ on December 07, 2017, 08:55:48 pm
http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=1865.0

I don't how you Can't get that from his answers and the question. My perspective, I mean. I can't see it any other way, that's just me though.
Title: Re: Achamian as the most powerful sorcerer left alive in the Three Seas.
Post by: SmilerLoki on December 08, 2017, 04:33:49 am
http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=1865.0

I don't how you Can't get that from his answers and the question. My perspective, I mean. I can't see it any other way, that's just me though.
I originally interpreted that post of Bakker the same way you do, but now I also see that it can be interpreted to mean that the No-God existed previously and served the purpose of reducing any living population to the 144k, and so without it the Inchoroi of old needed some cruder methods of committing genocides. And lo and behold, the Womb Plague.

I honestly can't tell which interpretation is more likely considering the information available, so this is probably the point when we find ourselves requiring additional clarification from Bakker.
Title: Re: Achamian as the most powerful sorcerer left alive in the Three Seas.
Post by: TaoHorror on December 08, 2017, 03:45:34 pm
http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=1865.0

I don't how you Can't get that from his answers and the question. My perspective, I mean. I can't see it any other way, that's just me though.
I originally interpreted that post of Bakker the same way you do, but now I also see that it can be interpreted to mean that the No-God existed previously and served the purpose of reducing any living population to the 144k, and so without it the Inchoroi of old needed some cruder methods of committing genocides. And lo and behold, the Womb Plague.

I honestly can't tell which interpretation is more likely considering the information available, so this is probably the point when we find ourselves requiring additional clarification from Bakker.

I summon and he returns! Missed you, SL!

Before all of this rich discussion - I had the (mis)understanding TNG was was part of the plan all along ( i.e. was used in other worlds ). But I agree with Wilshire, they probably ( were all told ) every world they eradicated was special per his point.

Now after reading through all of this, I see hints/evidence from Baker, et al that either could be possible. Even the original insertant reference could be stretched to still refer to someone from Earwa before NC ... by all appearances, to me, it seems TNG was used throughout the galaxy, it broke on its way into Earwa with the "original insertant" no longer living, they repair TNG and then find a lucky candidate to power/use it. A big question is why NC and Kel resembled those candidates. Just random luck? Someone goosing their souls on the way in?
Title: Re: Achamian as the most powerful sorcerer left alive in the Three Seas.
Post by: MSJ on December 08, 2017, 08:00:44 pm
Quote from:  TaoHorror
Now after reading through all of this, I see hints/evidence from Baker, et al that either could be possible. Even the original insertant reference could be stretched to still refer to someone from Earwa before NC ...

Not buying that.

Quote
by all appearances, to me, it seems TNG was used throughout the galaxy, it broke on its way into Earwa with the "original insertant" no longer living, they repair TNG and then find a lucky candidate to power/use it.

Imho, this is what most assuredly happened. Aurax and Aurang are the sole survivors of a technology advanced race. They weren't in charge of the Tekne or the NG. They didn't even understand it. Thats why it took so long to ressurect and needed the aide of Shae. Its also why I took Bakker's answer to mean they "found" a way to accomplish at least part of the NG's function. As I said, I don't see what else you can take away from that Q&A.
Title: Re: Achamian as the most powerful sorcerer left alive in the Three Seas.
Post by: SmilerLoki on December 08, 2017, 11:52:50 pm
I summon and he returns! Missed you, SL!
Thank you for the kind words! I wasn't gone, I just wasn't posting. I'm actually an accomplished lurker.