The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => The No-God => The Crabikiad => Topic started by: JerakoKayne on December 20, 2017, 05:02:00 am

Title: Crabby Fails
Post by: JerakoKayne on December 20, 2017, 05:02:00 am
...the Dunyain at least!

He was explicity told just before Koringhus' death that "everything I have taught you is a lie". And for whatever reason, he was defective in the first place.

Crabby is not Dunyain. Thoughts?
Title: Re: Crabby Fails
Post by: TaoHorror on December 20, 2017, 08:45:40 pm
Crab has captured our imaginations ( well, at least mine, but from context of others discussions I'll extend it to the group as a whole ). Bakker left it so wide open, his significance could be damn near anything from almost nothing to the savior of the world. He is genetically Dunyain - just don't know what the significance of that if not Dunyain raised ... but he was Dunyain raised ( i.e. raised by a Dunyain ), just not by a society of Dunyain ... again, not sure what that will mean. I've ( bragged? ) about not having expectations about the next books, but I am excited about what will become of our little uber-man. The implications/possibilities are so cool, I do hope it's something wild/impactful. You're suggesting he's not Dunyain? I say he is, but as with any transplant, can't say for sure what he'll specifically be given his "upbringing" wasn't classic Dunyain. Will he leverage disparate psychological prowess over others? I think so, but in a unique way with a unique flavor ( Bakker gives us clues he's got game ). So I guess the answer to your query is, sorta.

And to add, the Dunyain "tests" are highly suspect in my book in regards to their "accuracy" of detecting defectives - at least I would likely disagree with their aims/conclusions. Just because someone ain't quick on anything ( thought/speed ), that doesn't preclude them from an achievement that dwarfs all others. So labeling him defective means little to me as to his capabilities. I suspect the Dunyain inadvertently selected for weaknesses they might have not known about because of it. Additionally, we now get to see how a Dunyain will develop in the outside world, bypassing the trauma of exposure to it at a late age - the world does a good job of challenge/growth/vetting people, who knows what they miss by that lack of exposure. Could be the stuff of legends. And for all we know the bar for defective could be quite low and they're measuring in millimeters, the cat could well not be all that different from his ancestors/brothers. "ooooh, you missed 1 question out of the 143,968 questions on the test, fuck you, you're dead".

One last thing ( apologies for all the edits, I'm multi-tasking, but your post lured me in ) ... are you asking if he can fill the shoes of a Dunyain or will he be sociopathological as a Dunyain? That will be interesting to see how much of that is genetic selection vs environment/upbringing ... I don't know ( yet ).
Title: Re: Crabby Fails
Post by: TLEILAXU on December 20, 2017, 11:14:36 pm
The boy is "defective" in spirit, not necessarily in intellect...
Title: Re: Crabby Fails
Post by: Cuttlefish on December 21, 2017, 09:39:37 am
I thought he was defective due to his hand? He was only a baby when Koringhus took him, his defect was known as a baby - long before anything beyond physical could be established.
Title: Re: Crabby Fails
Post by: H on December 21, 2017, 12:28:25 pm
I thought he was defective due to his hand? He was only a baby when Koringhus took him, his defect was known as a baby - long before anything beyond physical could be established.

Yeah, this is what I felt as well.

All Dunyain are "defective in spirit" though.  Crabby is Dunyain by birth (a product of their breeding) but not by training, that is the distinction to be made I'd think.
Title: Re: Crabby Fails
Post by: Cuttlefish on December 21, 2017, 01:15:10 pm
I thought he was defective due to his hand? He was only a baby when Koringhus took him, his defect was known as a baby - long before anything beyond physical could be established.

Yeah, this is what I felt as well.

All Dunyain are "defective in spirit" though.  Crabby is Dunyain by birth (a product of their breeding) but not by training, that is the distinction to be made I'd think.


Indeed, he has all the genetical superiority of the Dunyain, but very little of their ideology (probably even less than that since his dad told him it was all a lie before he died). He might grow up to be a hero or a villain in personality, and possess the Dunyain intellect.

The degree to which he has Dunyain skills is debatle, though. I don't think he could master people like his grandfather, though. Kellhus's flashbacks reveal that he went through special training to read expressions, and the crab handed boy never did. There was also that bit about him shedding the emotions he wears too early, that Koringhus remarks on warning him about.
Title: Re: Crabby Fails
Post by: TLEILAXU on December 21, 2017, 02:16:00 pm
I thought he was defective due to his hand? He was only a baby when Koringhus took him, his defect was known as a baby - long before anything beyond physical could be established.
It's his emotions.

I thought he was defective due to his hand? He was only a baby when Koringhus took him, his defect was known as a baby - long before anything beyond physical could be established.

Yeah, this is what I felt as well.

All Dunyain are "defective in spirit" though.  Crabby is Dunyain by birth (a product of their breeding) but not by training, that is the distinction to be made I'd think.
I mean from a DŻnyain point of view.
Title: Re: Crabby Fails
Post by: Cuttlefish on December 21, 2017, 02:26:57 pm
I thought he was defective due to his hand? He was only a baby when Koringhus took him, his defect was known as a baby - long before anything beyond physical could be established.
It's his emotions.

I thought he was defective due to his hand? He was only a baby when Koringhus took him, his defect was known as a baby - long before anything beyond physical could be established.

Yeah, this is what I felt as well.

All Dunyain are "defective in spirit" though.  Crabby is Dunyain by birth (a product of their breeding) but not by training, that is the distinction to be made I'd think.
I mean from a DŻnyain point of view.

Where are you getting that emotions thing? He was literally a baby when he was declared a defective, and saved by Koringhus. His defect seemed to be clearly his hand.
Title: Re: Crabby Fails
Post by: MSJ on December 21, 2017, 03:31:24 pm
But, all the Survivor taught him was a lie. The Dunyain were so wrong about the world it was there downfall.

I say its a good thing he didn't receive the training. And, its gonna be very interesting indeed how he turns out. Remember, he oout ran a Skin-Spy.... So, the physical abilities are gonna be there along with being of the few.(maybe?)
Title: Re: Crabby Fails
Post by: TLEILAXU on December 21, 2017, 04:37:57 pm
I thought he was defective due to his hand? He was only a baby when Koringhus took him, his defect was known as a baby - long before anything beyond physical could be established.
It's his emotions.

I thought he was defective due to his hand? He was only a baby when Koringhus took him, his defect was known as a baby - long before anything beyond physical could be established.

Yeah, this is what I felt as well.

All Dunyain are "defective in spirit" though.  Crabby is Dunyain by birth (a product of their breeding) but not by training, that is the distinction to be made I'd think.
I mean from a DŻnyain point of view.

Where are you getting that emotions thing? He was literally a baby when he was declared a defective, and saved by Koringhus. His defect seemed to be clearly his hand.
Some quotes:
Quote
The child was defective, as the Assessor had predicted.
Quote
They would have cracked open his skull, had Ishušl not fallen. The boy would have been pinned as all other Defectives were pinned to the subtlety of some forbidden affect, strapped for the scrutiny of others, nailed as if a drying hide to the outer expression of some inner frailty.
Quote
There was more horror than concern in their faces when his eyes fluttered open. The boy especially.
Quote
The boy clutches his tunic with both hands, hale and halved. He cannot help himself. He is defective.
Title: Re: Crabby Fails
Post by: Wilshire on December 21, 2017, 05:10:45 pm
Looks like while they Dunyain know some baseline of feelings remain, there is a certain threshold that is 'too much', and apparently they are able to accurately predict from infants (or however early on) which ones will likely be defective as adults. So rather than spending 10 years training them, they  pre-select them from a young age with some degree of accuracy and discard those who don't pass. Time is of the essence .
Title: Re: Crabby Fails
Post by: Cuttlefish on December 21, 2017, 05:46:39 pm
I thought he was defective due to his hand? He was only a baby when Koringhus took him, his defect was known as a baby - long before anything beyond physical could be established.
It's his emotions.

I thought he was defective due to his hand? He was only a baby when Koringhus took him, his defect was known as a baby - long before anything beyond physical could be established.

Yeah, this is what I felt as well.

All Dunyain are "defective in spirit" though.  Crabby is Dunyain by birth (a product of their breeding) but not by training, that is the distinction to be made I'd think.
I mean from a DŻnyain point of view.

Where are you getting that emotions thing? He was literally a baby when he was declared a defective, and saved by Koringhus. His defect seemed to be clearly his hand.
Some quotes:
Quote
The child was defective, as the Assessor had predicted.
Quote
They would have cracked open his skull, had Ishušl not fallen. The boy would have been pinned as all other Defectives were pinned to the subtlety of some forbidden affect, strapped for the scrutiny of others, nailed as if a drying hide to the outer expression of some inner frailty.
Quote
There was more horror than concern in their faces when his eyes fluttered open. The boy especially.
Quote
The boy clutches his tunic with both hands, hale and halved. He cannot help himself. He is defective.

Yeah, it appears you're right! Apparently it was a "prediction". Pretty interesting shit, I missed it and immediately thought he was defective because of his hand.
Title: Re: Crabby Fails
Post by: MSJ on December 21, 2017, 06:26:08 pm
Quote from:  Cuttlefish
Yeah, it appears you're right! Apparently it was a "prediction". Pretty interesting shit, I missed it and immediately thought he was defective because of his hand.

Yea, I might be making it up in my mind, but I think there is a passage that describes his hand as loped off. I think the Srancy got to him a bit.
Title: Re: Crabby Fails
Post by: Francis Buck on January 09, 2018, 12:27:47 am
Crab has captured our imaginations ( well, at least mine, but from context of others discussions I'll extend it to the group as a whole ). Bakker left it so wide open, his significance could be damn near anything from almost nothing to the savior of the world. He is genetically Dunyain - just don't know what the significance of that if not Dunyain raised ... but he was Dunyain raised ( i.e. raised by a Dunyain ), just not by a society of Dunyain ... again, not sure what that will mean. I've ( bragged? ) about not having expectations about the next books, but I am excited about what will become of our little uber-man. The implications/possibilities are so cool, I do hope it's something wild/impactful. You're suggesting he's not Dunyain? I say he is, but as with any transplant, can't say for sure what he'll specifically be given his "upbringing" wasn't classic Dunyain. Will he leverage disparate psychological prowess over others? I think so, but in a unique way with a unique flavor ( Bakker gives us clues he's got game ). So I guess the answer to your query is, sorta.

And to add, the Dunyain "tests" are highly suspect in my book in regards to their "accuracy" of detecting defectives - at least I would likely disagree with their aims/conclusions. Just because someone ain't quick on anything ( thought/speed ), that doesn't preclude them from an achievement that dwarfs all others. So labeling him defective means little to me as to his capabilities. I suspect the Dunyain inadvertently selected for weaknesses they might have not known about because of it. Additionally, we now get to see how a Dunyain will develop in the outside world, bypassing the trauma of exposure to it at a late age - the world does a good job of challenge/growth/vetting people, who knows what they miss by that lack of exposure. Could be the stuff of legends. And for all we know the bar for defective could be quite low and they're measuring in millimeters, the cat could well not be all that different from his ancestors/brothers. "ooooh, you missed 1 question out of the 143,968 questions on the test, fuck you, you're dead".

One last thing ( apologies for all the edits, I'm multi-tasking, but your post lured me in ) ... are you asking if he can fill the shoes of a Dunyain or will he be sociopathological as a Dunyain? That will be interesting to see how much of that is genetic selection vs environment/upbringing ... I don't know ( yet ).

I agree with this by and large. As powerful as the Dunyain are, it seems clear at this stage of the series (to me, anyway) that much of what made the Dunyain so special came at the cost of numerous things, mainly being extremely vulnerable upon leaving Ishual and also their naivete of the World in general (a perfect barricade is also perfect blindness).

I also think that the entire Ansaurimbor lineage has the "defect" of being prone to love (this is just my random headcanon at the moment), even including Kellhus to a degree.Taking Kellhus as an example, he has numerous moments of fleeting passions (almost always with regard to Esmenet), and I also think that Kellhus is totally genuine with Proyas when he says "he isn't sure he's even capable of love".

Basically, I think Kellhus (and other Dunyain, maybe in particular the Ansaurimbor) does experience something akin to "love", it's just much different from the way human experiences it, and furthermore Kellhus himself (and probably most other pure-blooded Dunyain) would contextualize the experience in a completely different way. When Kellhus tells Emsi that she is his "only darkness, and the only place he can hide", I think that's basically Dunyain-speak for love-as-known-by-a-Dunyain.

However, I also think a major point of the series is to attempt dispell the notion that things like love, compassion, empathy, etc. are "weaknesses" or flaws of some kind. And that's where I think Crabicus will come into play -- due his unique upbringing and early exposure to the World, I think he may end up being the most  "balanced" of the Dunyain, in terms of combining all the superhuman faculties without losing sight of the HUMAN part of superhuman.

I could also see Crabby becoming the new version of Inri Sejenus. Somewhere in PON, Kellhus mentions how Inri came after the Second Apocalypse, when the World's wounds were in need of mending, while Kellhus himself came before in order to make Men more warlike (which he did end up following through on, even if it ultimately was not enough).

Given that Crabby also has the insights learned from his pops (which I think are legit), and given the theme of love/compasson/etc. not always being the weaknesses, it seems liable that Crabby may end up reforming religions and so forth, perhaps one that is truer to the actual metaphysics at work.

Ultimately I think the series was always intended to have Dunyain fighting on both sides of the spectrum -- the Mutilated, who represent a Dunyain that has quashed all human feelings in pursuit of their goals, and the others such as Serwa, Kayutas, Crabicus, and so forth (ironically even Kelmomas, as it turned out, though he "matured" a bit too late it would seem) who have enough humanity left in themselves to actually care about the survival of the species. 
Title: Re: Crabby Fails
Post by: H on January 09, 2018, 03:10:20 pm
Well, certainly by the way Bakker framed the book, saying that he would write it first because otherwise it would seem to just be a useless adendum (or something like that) would seem to proscribe to me a very strict Blood Meridian-esque role for Crabby.  It simply isn't a story of Crabby "winning" or anything of the like, it's a document of Crabby's journey.

Just like the kid in Blood Meridian, it's not about what he might or might not achieve.  It's more about what he encounters, what he experiences, not him taking some premier role in world events.  In the end, he probably ends up being one of the many nameless numerous dead.
Title: Re: Crabby Fails
Post by: SuJuroit on April 05, 2018, 06:07:04 pm
I think TLEILAXU has it right in that Crabicus is defective because he cannot manage his emotions within "acceptable" Dunyain parameters.  I agree with Wilshire that the Dunyain apparently have the capacity to make such determinations while children are still essentially infants, and those determinations are reasonably accurate. 

I remember posting a while ago that the Anasurimbor line in general seems to be undergoing a sort of degeneration from Dunyanic ideals as we progress through the story.  Moenghus Sr. was a Dunyain's Dunyain, a true son of Ishual in pretty much every way.  When his children failed to meet spec, he drowned them.  Welp.

Kellhus on the other hand harbored feelings for Esmenet, and regardless of how he personally felt about his children, he at the very least coddled them out of regard for her.  Inrilatus was merely imprisoned instead of summarily killed.  Kelmomas was spared multiple times for Esme's sake. 

Koringhus, although a prodigy among the Dunyain, went so far as to risk his life repeatedly to save his infant son.  His defective son.  There's no evidence of any other Dunyain doing anything like that, and Koringhus himself regards the decision as a sort of inexplicable madness. 

And Crabicus is, by Dunyain standards, defective.  He cannot control his emotions.  He loves.
Title: Re: Crabby Fails
Post by: Wilshire on June 12, 2019, 05:22:31 pm
TH, I like how you've detailed the boy as pretty much a blank slate. There really is a huge amount he could accomplish.

Btw, didn't Esmi call her defective monster children that were born dead or drowned, The Nameless Ones? The Boy is another Nameless One...
Title: Re: Crabby Fails
Post by: Cuttlefish on July 15, 2019, 05:47:18 pm
I think TLEILAXU has it right in that Crabicus is defective because he cannot manage his emotions within "acceptable" Dunyain parameters.  I agree with Wilshire that the Dunyain apparently have the capacity to make such determinations while children are still essentially infants, and those determinations are reasonably accurate. 

I remember posting a while ago that the Anasurimbor line in general seems to be undergoing a sort of degeneration from Dunyanic ideals as we progress through the story.  Moenghus Sr. was a Dunyain's Dunyain, a true son of Ishual in pretty much every way.  When his children failed to meet spec, he drowned them.  Welp.

Kellhus on the other hand harbored feelings for Esmenet, and regardless of how he personally felt about his children, he at the very least coddled them out of regard for her.  Inrilatus was merely imprisoned instead of summarily killed.  Kelmomas was spared multiple times for Esme's sake. 

Koringhus, although a prodigy among the Dunyain, went so far as to risk his life repeatedly to save his infant son.  His defective son.  There's no evidence of any other Dunyain doing anything like that, and Koringhus himself regards the decision as a sort of inexplicable madness. 

And Crabicus is, by Dunyain standards, defective.  He cannot control his emotions.  He loves.

I disagree with the notion that Anasurimbor line is increasingly degenerating from the Dunyain ideals, as kind of a genetical evolution. It is Moenghus himself that explains the Dunyain are not free from the causality, that though they've bred most emotions out, some still have stuck with them; I agree that Moenghus remained true to the Dunyain ideals throughout his stay in the outside while Kellhus has completely let them go, but I believe this is a consequence of the different conditions that have affected them; Kellhus, delivered to the Gnosis and reaching the truth (or near approximation) of the metaphysical forces that govern Earwa, understands the folly of the shortest path far more clearly than Moenghus, limited by his conditions, could.

To Koringhus, the realization that he saved the defective child because it is his son (and he loves him) comes much after the fact of saving him, and after a decade or so of constant exertion and creeping insanity - he is broken, not because he is genetically degenerating, but because the conditions the world impose upon him break away his Dunyain spirit; it's worth noting that Kellhus's emotionality begins to manifest itself fairly early on in the series of novels, such as when he spares CnaiŁr out of pity, or when he feels a shortness of breath that puzzles him when Esmenet's life is put in danger. It's also mentioned, if I recall correctly, that some of the Dunyain were so overwhelmed when the Consult first besieged Ishual, that they simply stopped functioning - I think these Dunyain belong to the weakest lines of Dunyain, as opposed to Anasurimbor, "the most promising of the twelve germs" as described Koringhus.

In summary, I don't think the Anasurimbor split with the Dunyain ideology is a product of generational differences, but merely the unique conditions they find themselves in. I think if Moenghus, straight out of Ishual, was thrust in the exact same scenario as Kellhus, he'd largely, if not entirely, end up in the same place. Same goes for Koringhus.
Title: Re: Crabby Fails
Post by: Wilshire on July 15, 2019, 06:03:40 pm
The trouble is, we can either say that Moenghus and Kellhus basically had the same path and ended up in much different places, or that Kellhus' ground was thoroughly conditioned such that the play Kellhus ended up had little to do with him at all. In the latter case, you can't draw any conclusions about what Kellhus might have done if left to his own devices.

But, I like SuJuroit's conclusions better than "random circumstance". It seems to be part of the worldbuilding that the Anasurimbor are special. Moenghus was exiled rather than killed, and he chose not to kill himself or isolate himself, but rather returned to the world in order to influence history. Kellhus drifted farther, even if pressed by Moenghus, to the point of doing something categorically dismissed as impossible by Moenghus - ending in Moenghus' ultimate death (at the hands of his son). Kellhus in tern meets his end for the same weakness really - that he didnt account for insanity of his son, leading to his death.

Koringhus is a pretty extreme example of anything, and difficult to conclude much. However, his decision to save his son was instinctual. This is telling - the first thing he did was to save his son.

Its a peculiar trait of the True Ishual Anasurimbor Dunyain. Though its tangential, Koringhus ultimately goes mad Because of his son, that love. This time his son doesnt literally kill him, but the Qirri shoves a crazy man over the edge, and that mental state can be blamed pretty squarely on The Nameless One.

Its a repeating historical chain of events. Should The Nameless One have a son, I do imagine it will lead to his death.

Now, is that generational drift? Hmm, maybe not. Its not really "getting worse", just fathers sparing their sons. But I do think it is something unique about the Anasurimbor, or the Dunyain Anasurimbor.
Title: Re: Crabby Fails
Post by: SmilerLoki on July 15, 2019, 06:22:39 pm
I would like to note that there is no explanation as to why the crab-handed child was found defective by the Dunyain. So it seems rather counterproductive to start building theories with assuming the cause of it. There is nothing to support such assumptions.
Title: Re: Crabby Fails
Post by: Wilshire on July 15, 2019, 06:30:20 pm
I would like to note that there is no explanation as to why the crab-handed child was found defective by the Dunyain. So it seems rather counterproductive to start building theories with assuming the cause of it. There is nothing to support such assumptions.

Just as likely that the Dunyain Pragma were tired of their prodigal sons turning into patricidal crazy people bent on destroying Ishual. ;)
Title: Re: Crabby Fails
Post by: SmilerLoki on July 15, 2019, 07:02:43 pm
Just as likely that the Dunyain Pragma were tired of their prodigal sons turning into patricidal crazy people bent on destroying Ishual. ;)
You stole the words right out of my mouth!
Title: Re: Crabby Fails
Post by: Wilshire on July 15, 2019, 07:32:18 pm
Just as likely that the Dunyain Pragma were tired of their prodigal sons turning into patricidal crazy people bent on destroying Ishual. ;)
You stole the words right out of my mouth!
Pragma meeting: Ok ok. Fool me once, impossible. Fool me twice, shame on you. Fool me thrice, we fucked up big ... genocide should fix the problem.
Title: Re: Crabby Fails
Post by: H on July 15, 2019, 08:41:16 pm
Koringhus is a pretty extreme example of anything, and difficult to conclude much. However, his decision to save his son was instinctual. This is telling - the first thing he did was to save his son.

Its a peculiar trait of the True Ishual Anasurimbor Dunyain. Though its tangential, Koringhus ultimately goes mad Because of his son, that love. This time his son doesnt literally kill him, but the Qirri shoves a crazy man over the edge, and that mental state can be blamed pretty squarely on The Nameless One.

Its a repeating historical chain of events. Should The Nameless One have a son, I do imagine it will lead to his death.

Hmm, that is a fair point, but I think there is a different way to read Koringhus, where he actually isn't insane.  Rather, he is the most sane of all of them.

I mean, his "dividing" of himself is a bit pathological, but it does not seem to lead him to any detrimental behavior (yeah, wait).  In fact, it seems to be part of what keeps him, and the child, alive.  Granted, eventually he does kill himself, but only after the realization about the detrimental, essential lies, that he was raised on.

So, in the questio for Absolute Freedom, he does take the one act that would have him be absolutely free.  Because all other actions would still have, at least, adhered to Rule Zero.  Which is actually the rule he was following all along, in saving the boy.  The Dunyain actually went right not wrong with Koringhus, because he is able to replace Rule One with Rule Zero, on the fly.  Something that, it seems from Koringhus' description of what the other Dunyain did during the assault, it seems few to none were able to do, that is, adapt.

This is part of what Koringhus says, in his revelations under Mimara's Eye.  That the Absolute, that is, perhaps Absolute Freedom, is not a passive thing.  It's not a state to reach, it's a radical action.  Not only that, but he takes the radical action the worked toward the survival of the child and not himself.  That is, he places another rule even before Rule Zero, because he, in the same sort of sense that Moe the Elder realizes, is that he is not the "future."

Of course, Moe and Kellhus do both die "hand the hands" of their sons, but also, Moe and Kellhus die due to critical misapprehentions about the Outside.  Moe in thinking that it does not matter and Kellhus in thinking it was a thing that could be harness and/or bested.  Koringhus seems, at least to me, to suffer neither of those.  He sees the lie his own self was built on and takes the only path he could to radical freedom, that is, to the thing closest to the Absolute.
Title: Re: Crabby Fails
Post by: Cuttlefish on July 17, 2019, 12:05:44 pm
I think it's wrong to assume that it was Kellhus who was bested by his son; it was Ajokli. Kellhus himself seems fairly aware of his son; he successfully identifies himself while leaving the imperial capital (Momemn, I think? It's been a while) for everything he has done, he successfully identifies that his son truly believed Sorweel to be intent on killing him. He can read Kelmomas like he can read anyone; the trouble is, it is the Gods (whose very existence is anathema to the Dunyain) who are blind to him, and ultimately, it is one of them that gets jumped by Kelmomas, leaving Kellhus exposed to be killed. It is ironic that, after two series of books of realizing that everything the Dunyain were built upon was false, to ultimately be deceived by the "true" powers he has acquired, a situation that he could've survived had he remained a full Dunyain and therefore alert to everything (assuming, of course, that as a full Dunyain, he'd still have ended up in the same situation to begin with as opposed to joining the Consult).
Title: Re: Crabby Fails
Post by: H on July 17, 2019, 12:29:16 pm
But Kellhus had the chance the end little Kel and did not.  So, in some way, Kellhus is indeed responsible for his own undoing.  I don't really see it as Ajokli being the reason Kellhus did not kill him right there.

Like I said though, I do think Kellhus was "blinded" in a way by the idea that he could "control" the Outside, or at least, bend it to his will.
Title: Re: Crabby Fails
Post by: Wilshire on July 17, 2019, 02:08:59 pm
But Kellhus had the chance the end little Kel and did not.  So, in some way, Kellhus is indeed responsible for his own undoing.
This is the key. While Ajokli might have been the downfall, it was ultimately Kellhus who chose not to kill his mad son, who he knew was mad. Its almost a direct parallel to Moenghus/Kellhus ;) . Moe was in abject denial of the bare obvious fact that Kellhus was insane (from his perspective at least) right up until he died.
Title: Re: Crabby Fails
Post by: H on July 17, 2019, 02:54:30 pm
This is the key. While Ajokli might have been the downfall, it was ultimately Kellhus who chose not to kill his mad son, who he knew was mad. Its almost a direct parallel to Moenghus/Kellhus ;) . Moe was in abject denial of the bare obvious fact that Kellhus was insane (from his perspective at least) right up until he died.

Well, I think the thing is, to me, both Moe and Kellhus were sort of decent "Bayesians" there, from a certain perspective.  In fact, I think Moe and Kellhus did rather "rational" things, considering the given factors.  However, debatably, Moe was "right" and Kellhus was "wrong" in sowing their undoings though.  As if, I think Moe was "right" to ceed the "iterative ground" because he got himself into a sort of "dead end."  But Kellhus, he just plain makes a mistake.  He figures that the the relative weight of hurting Esmenet (which is a "known") is greater than the weight of leaving little Kel alive (an "unknown," in the sense of what would happen then).  So, I think it was a "sane" choice, forsaking the evil one knows, versus something wholly unknown.  But ultimately totally incorrect, because one, little Kel is a total loose cannon, which means the prospective downside is near infinity, where the prospective downside of hurting Esmenet is "known."

In this sense, Kellhus does, to me, fail the "spiritual" test at hand.  So, in a way, Kellhus makes a sort of Pascal's Wager and bets on the wrong horse.  This speaks (to me) of Kellhus just flatly being "too rational."  He thinks, "well, how could not eliminating little Kel could hurt me?  I see nothing, therefore he cannot."  I simply just don't see Kellhus as insane at all.  And well, I don't think little Kel is either, give his circumstances, but that is a whole different thing...
Title: Re: Crabby Fails
Post by: Wilshire on July 17, 2019, 03:45:59 pm
Both Kellhus and Kelmomas hear voices in their head that tell them to kill their fathers.

Yes, granted, I think you're otherwise correct. While Moenghus probably didnt choose to die, he did recognize that he made a mistake and needed help. Even if he properly accounted for Kellhus' path and insanity, and eventually his own death, I don't think he would have changed much.

Kellhus, OTOH, fell into a similar trap of allowing the gods to overcome him. The difference with Kelmomas though is that Kellhus definitely would have killed him if he realized that not doing so would lead to his death.

So there's a difference, but its minimal. Both Moe/Kell made a mistake (psuke, thaumaturgy?/other) which backed them into a corner, let their insane patricidal-voices-in-their-head sons live, leading to their eventual death.

The Koringhus->mistake->patricide doesn't really follow, but if I torture the logic enough I can make it fit :P. Mistake, yes, patricide-voices are really suicidal-voices. Oh well.
Title: Re: Crabby Fails
Post by: H on July 17, 2019, 04:32:03 pm
So there's a difference, but its minimal. Both Moe/Kell made a mistake (psuke, thaumaturgy?/other) which backed them into a corner, let their insane patricidal-voices-in-their-head sons live, leading to their eventual death.

The Koringhus->mistake->patricide doesn't really follow, but if I torture the logic enough I can make it fit :P. Mistake, yes, patricide-voices are really suicidal-voices. Oh well.

Yeah, I think, to me, that minimal difference is that Moe's mistake was "less avoidable" since he didn't really have much of a different path, once he made the wrong choices.  Kellhus though, it at least seems, could have chosen differently at that moment, he just didn't.  Now, that characterization is totally dependent on how we choose to view the Ajokli confounding influence though.  I just choose to not see that particular choice, to let Kel live, as really being "influenced" by the Ajokli-taint.

However, I actually don't think Koringhus is insane, or even made a mistake, besides the srot of "unavoidable" one he made of accepting the Dunyain principles he was raised on.  But even then, being cloistered in a monastery with no outside contact and living a life that is totally Conditioned, he was likely being as "good a Bayesian" as he could be.  And, in light of what happened, he did what he  "had to" to survive (and ensure the survival of his "genetic legacy").  His "compartmentalization" or "personality fracturing" likely was somewhat pathological, but, to me, really a sane act of survival, as it really was not maladaptive, but seems to have been at least somewhat beneficial.

In the end, Koringhus makes the most "sane" choice.  Realizing his "usefulness" has been expended, he takes the only path he can for "real" transcendental (or Absolute, if you will) Freedom.
Title: Re: Crabby Fails
Post by: themerchant on July 20, 2019, 03:51:58 pm
How do we know Kellhus has failed. Perhaps he planned past a defeat.

When Iyokus is speaking to Akka when he has him captured he states that Skuarus planned past a defeat which is a sign of true intelligence.
Title: Re: Crabby Fails
Post by: Cuttlefish on July 20, 2019, 08:03:39 pm
What I mean by "it was Ajokli that was defeated", was that at Kellhus's death, it's Ajokli who is affected by Kelmomas, not Kellhus.

And it's arguable that Sorweel could've and would've killed Kellhus without Kelmomas's influence, so Kellhus sparing him in Esmenet's behalf got him further. He could've killed him afterwards, but what precise reason did he have? Outwardly, Kelmomas was never a threat to Kellhus.

And I don't think it's comparable, what happened with Moenghus. Moenghus couldn't have killed Kellhus even if he wanted (and Kellhus speculates that he'd try; he speculates on an alternative scenario where Moenghus, being Dunyain still, is inevitably converted to the Consult, kills Kellhus, takes his place as the prophet, and leads the world to slaughter); Kellhus possessed sight as a physical advantage, and though he hadn't yet reached the full height of his power, he was still the stronger magician with the Gnosis. So, for Moenghus, it wasn't a choice.

How do we know Kellhus has failed. Perhaps he planned past a defeat.

He says something like "the Consult has to win" to Proyas before he dies, and Bakker himself said "Kellhus is dead, but not done". So, perhaps, the ground the world has to thread without Kellhus is still conditioned by him! Kellhus's conversation with Moenghus implied to me that he sought something "more" for humanity, by mentioning sharing the truth with them, though Moenghus immediately dismisses the possibility. Perhaps, he seeks to break the cycle of monstrous morality that grips Earwa, of gods who feast on the souls of almost *everyone*.

Though, his reaction to being defeated in the end seemed to be of genuine shock, so I don't know how much he expected what went down.
Title: Re: Crabby Fails
Post by: Madness on July 21, 2019, 12:09:50 pm
Wb, Cuttlefish. Love the posts.

Two thoughts.

I think Sorweel would've succeeded exactly as he saw it with Serwa killing him. Bakker did tell me "all bets are off" when he handed me the draft for TUC and I legit read that portion thinking it was real the first time.

Secondly, Kellhus arguably actually enacts his visions of Moenghus' takeover. The Ordeal *is* led to "salt and butchery," even though I would argue Kellhus did have "noble" intentions [and didn't manufacture the Ordeal's various crises]. Paved roads to hell and all that ;).
Title: Re: Crabby Fails
Post by: TheCulminatingApe on July 21, 2019, 06:37:31 pm
How do we know Kellhus has failed. Perhaps he planned past a defeat.

When Iyokus is speaking to Akka when he has him captured he states that Skuarus planned past a defeat which is a sign of true intelligence.

That's a good spot re Skauras.

What I mean by "it was Ajokli that was defeated", was that at Kellhus's death, it's Ajokli who is affected by Kelmomas, not Kellhus.

And it's arguable that Sorweel could've and would've killed Kellhus without Kelmomas's influence, so Kellhus sparing him in Esmenet's behalf got him further. He could've killed him afterwards, but what precise reason did he have? Outwardly, Kelmomas was never a threat to Kellhus.

And I don't think it's comparable, what happened with Moenghus. Moenghus couldn't have killed Kellhus even if he wanted (and Kellhus speculates that he'd try; he speculates on an alternative scenario where Moenghus, being Dunyain still, is inevitably converted to the Consult, kills Kellhus, takes his place as the prophet, and leads the world to slaughter); Kellhus possessed sight as a physical advantage, and though he hadn't yet reached the full height of his power, he was still the stronger magician with the Gnosis. So, for Moenghus, it wasn't a choice.

Ajokli being 'exorcised' does lead directly to Kellhus' death.  He is at best surprised by Kelmomas being there, and cannot deal with the skin-spies (and perhaps may be over-matched by four Dunyain and a large number of skin-spies in any case).  Kellhus has lost the advantage that he got from being possessed by a God.  He has arguably lost any choice as to the outcome of events.
Title: Re: Crabby Fails
Post by: TheCulminatingApe on July 21, 2019, 06:54:26 pm
He says something like "the Consult has to win" to Proyas before he dies, and Bakker himself said "Kellhus is dead, but not done". So, perhaps, the ground the world has to thread without Kellhus is still conditioned by him! Kellhus's conversation with Moenghus implied to me that he sought something "more" for humanity, by mentioning sharing the truth with them, though Moenghus immediately dismisses the possibility. Perhaps, he seeks to break the cycle of monstrous morality that grips Earwa, of gods who feast on the souls of almost *everyone*.

Though, his reaction to being defeated in the end seemed to be of genuine shock, so I don't know how much he expected what went down.

Kellhus has surely left conditioned ground behind.  He has rewritten Scripture, and is surely going to be seen as some sort of holy figure in the Three Seas. The Akka/ Mimara plotline seems like a set-up.  He also sent the Ciphrang off to Zeum.  He's taken virtually the entire military and sorcerous leadership of the Three Seas and must have known that a huge proportion would die on the Ordeal.

Secondly, Kellhus arguably actually enacts his visions of Moenghus' takeover. The Ordeal *is* led to "salt and butchery," even though I would argue Kellhus did have "noble" intentions [and didn't manufacture the Ordeal's various crises]. Paved roads to hell and all that ;).

He certainly does appear to enact his vision of what Meonghus woudl do.
Kellhus' thoughts in TTT are:
"For the Dunyain it was axiomatic: what was compliant had to be isolated from was unruly and intractable. Kellhus had seen it many times, wandering the labyrinth of possibilities that was the Thousandfold Thought:  The Warrior-Prophet's assassination.  The rise of Anasurimbor Moenghus to take his place.  The apocalyptic conspiracies.  The counterfeit war against Golgotterath.  The accumulation of premeditated disasters.  The sacrifice of whole nations to the gluttony of the Sranc.  The Three Seas cashing into char and ruin.
The Gods baying like wolves at a silent gate
".

Going by the events of TAE, we can only conclude that Kellhus either has planned past defeat at Golgotterath - or that his plan was to bring Ajokli into the World as stated in TUC, in which case he failed.  I would guess the former (especially given his comments to Proyas).

But - I'm pretty sure events have not worked out as Kellhus intended.  He doesn't know and cannot foresee everything, whether or not he thinks he can (and indeed as the writing leads us as readers to think he can at times).  He has his limits based on what he is - still a human being, although a very gifted one.
Title: Re: Crabby Fails
Post by: TheCulminatingApe on July 21, 2019, 07:41:05 pm
But - I'm pretty sure events have not worked out as Kellhus intended.  He doesn't know and cannot foresee everything, whether or not he thinks he can (and indeed as the writing leads us as readers to think he can at times).  He has his limits based on what he is - still a human being, although a very gifted one.

Kelmomas popping up and 'getting rid' of Ajokli, certainly seem to have thrown him.  As per my earlier post, he seems to have lost control of events at this point.  His attempts to condition the ground inside the Ark don't seem to have worked out - or have been rendered impotent by the unforeseen circumstances of Kelmomas being the No-God.