The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The Unholy Consult => Topic started by: MSJ on February 15, 2018, 07:21:27 pm

Title: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: MSJ on February 15, 2018, 07:21:27 pm
This is a quote from the Con. Bakker confirmed his death, but still must have some sort of role to play. I started the thread because if like to hear everyone's thought on what this could possibly constitute. Here's a few of my thoughts I've had on it.

Most likely: Kellhus is simply in the other decapitant. And might have simply put off the possibility of damnation for the time being.

My crazy theory: He's in "a" decapitant. The mysterious deaths of "I forget the year but a poster here remarkably found them in the glossary", and he created a "network" to move around with the decapitants. Kinda like Shae, but not. Basically, I think he has more than the two decapitants and has strategically placed them.

I don't find the above likely, its just a thought. But, I'd love to hear other idea's on what this could possibly mean. Oh, and Bakker did confirm he is not in the Outside. Maybe one can't take Bakker for his word and he is wily when answering questions. But, for this thread, he is dead and not done and isn't on the Outside. What ya think about it?
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: Wilshire on February 15, 2018, 08:14:44 pm
Really thinking on it ... "Dead but not done"

Difficult to say. Probably something along two fronts. One is that 'not done' means that he has plans and machinations in the works that are still in play. The other front is the idea that Ajokli can't find him in the outside. So 'not done' might also be (either/or) that he's in limbo somewhere. Limbo could be 'the space between the gods'/'oblivion', could be be ascended into Absolute status above and beyond Ajokli and his Outside (Outside the Outside, as it were), or it could be something of him existing in the mundane world somehow (Pokemon Heads, though seemingly ridiculous, are a compelling option).
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: MSJ on February 15, 2018, 08:23:43 pm
Quote from:  Wilshire
that he's in limbo somewhere. Limbo could be 'the space between the gods'/'oblivion', could be be ascended into Absolute status above and beyond Ajokli and his Outside (Outside the Outside, as it were)

I love this. It also fits with my idea of Kelhus having created a "niche" where he basically hiding from Ajokli, gods and all. I've put forth that idea before.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: Wolfdrop on February 16, 2018, 11:41:25 am
My gut response is that he's in the other Decapitant, based on evidence, but I can't really see it being the case. Logistically, that's now a hanging prison attached to a salt statue right at the top of the world's most unassailable fortress and in the hands of the Consult.

When Malowebi got the chop the Decapitant took on his appearance and he it's. I was guessing this was the case with Kellhus and Ajokli. The other Decapitant is mentioned once as having a "line of iron horns jutting from black hair" and I'm sure once more it's noted as specifically having four horns. So that would seem to explain the appearance swap, with Ajokli taking Kellhus's face before revealing his own one when it erupts into flames and he fully takes over.

But something about that theory just doesn't sit right with me.

I'm inclined to believe it's more his plans and machinations the "dead but not done" relates to, but tbh I'm hoping for baby Kellhus as an Alia analogue being the case...
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: Wilshire on February 16, 2018, 12:34:49 pm
as an Alia analogue being the case...

Its Akka's baby, not Kellhus. Give the poor old man some credit - call it baby Kellhus is like when Kellhus named Serwe's son Moenghus. Its just mean! :P

But also yes, Alia resurgence would be great.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: MSJ on February 16, 2018, 03:26:18 pm
I think Wolfdrop is talking about the actual "baby Kellhus" theory. You know, how Sark said, " sometimes souls bounce and the old man ends up behind the eyes of a babe.". That's what he meant I believe, that Kellhus is soul actually went into Akka and Mimara's baby.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: H on February 16, 2018, 03:42:12 pm
I think it is highly plausible that Kellhus soul is simply too "strong" to simply be devoured by a ciphrang, captured by one of the 100, and certainly not balanced enough to find Oblivion.  So, he is probably there, somewhere, in the Outside now, doing who the hell knows what.  I'd think that's what "dead but not done" would mean to me.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: MSJ on February 16, 2018, 03:47:55 pm
Quote from:  H
I think it is highly plausible that Kellhus soul is simply too "strong" to simply be devoured by a ciphrang, captured by one of the 100, and certainly not balanced enough to find Oblivion.  So, he is probably there, somewhere, in the Outside now, doing who the hell knows what.  I'd think that's what "dead but not done" would mean to me.

Exactly, my "niche" theory you've seen me tout. That the tree and the priest is actually his self, a place he cannot be touched. Think about it, it has no resemblance to the descriptions of the Outside we get in TGO.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: H on February 16, 2018, 04:35:28 pm
Exactly, my "niche" theory you've seen me tout. That the tree and the priest is actually his self, a place he cannot be touched. Think about it, it has no resemblance to the descriptions of the Outside we get in TGO.

Right, highly plausible.  Also consider things such as the Head-on-a-Pole, which, my own pet theory would "predict" only protects him being alive, but speaks to the fact that Kellhus (at least) was able to "inhabit" the Outside in a different way than anyone else we know of, or at least not be subject to it in the same way.  So, considering he managed to at least learn a great deal of the Daimos, if not Master it, means that he must know the peril of his soul and so him having some kind of contingency plan in place is plausible.

There, of course, is the Moe the Elder arguement, that Kellhus could not plan for everything, and planning for failure is a waste, because you've already failed at that point, but I think Bakker's comment that Kellhus "isn't done" belies that as implausible.  Kellhus was definitely not perfect, but I think he was iteratively better than Moe.  There were just things he couldn't know and couldn't know he didn't know.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: Doulou on February 17, 2018, 06:00:31 pm
Bakker said the following in regard to souls -

"The problems souls encounter in the Outside is that they're puny, and so find themselves trapped in intentional realities belonging to infernal and divine agencies. This is why powerful souls (think Gin'yursis) often carve out different fates after death."

It will be interesting to see what Kellhus spirit is capable of, he has immense intelligence, but Bakker has specifically said the Dunyain are spiritually weak.

Right, highly plausible.  Also consider things such as the Head-on-a-Pole, which, my own pet theory would "predict" only protects him being alive, but speaks to the fact that Kellhus (at least) was able to "inhabit" the Outside in a different way than anyone else we know of, or at least not be subject to it in the same way.  So, considering he managed to at least learn a great deal of the Daimos, if not Master it, means that he must know the peril of his soul and so him having some kind of contingency plan in place is plausible.

I like this train of thought. I think having actually walked the infernal deep Kellhus we can safely assume he has used this insight to "avoid" going to hell. 
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: MSJ on February 18, 2018, 12:22:03 am
Nice thoughts Doulou! Really fits with my "niche" thoughts. I'd still like to think those mysterious deaths and the decapitants. Which is more wishful thinking.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: H on February 19, 2018, 12:00:13 pm
Well, the Glossary "head swapping" incident sure seems like a tantalizing clue, but we really don't know what it means, if anything.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: MSJ on February 19, 2018, 11:25:41 pm
Well, the Glossary "head swapping" incident sure seems like a tantalizing clue, but we really don't know what it means, if anything.

Correct. But that combined with the series of deaths, is the stuff of theory legend!!!!!
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: Madness on February 21, 2018, 02:37:05 pm
as an Alia analogue being the case...

But also yes, Alia resurgence would be great.

Except, sadly, on the AMA Bakker was somehow surprised regarding the Qirri/Mimara's baby Spice/Alia connection :(.

...

Welcome to the Second Apocalypse, Doulou. Apologies, glad you finally made it ;).

Well, the Glossary "head swapping" incident sure seems like a tantalizing clue, but we really don't know what it means, if anything.

Correct. But that combined with the series of deaths, is the stuff of theory legend!!!!!

Honestly - not reflecting any impressions Bakker's given me about TNG, truly in nerdanel territory here - FB makes a great case for Kellhus collecting Decapitants and Malowebi's tale explicitly shows a head being swapped out to no one's notice at least once. Shortly after reading TUC draft (or even TGO ARC) MG even suggested that Kellhus escaped in Ciphrang-Malowebi. It'd be extremely fun to read about Kellhus escaping death - albeit for a time - in the various Ciphrang-Characters he's littered around akin to Seswatha forestalling his own death via the Grasping/Mandate.

EDIT: But to reaffirm, I believe Bakker was more suggesting that, to paraphrase myself, the Ministrate has a scroll that reads "break, in event of my death" from Kellhus. I really want a Ministrate Atrocity Tale at least. The Winter Soldier of Earwa stories.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: MisterGuyMan on March 18, 2018, 11:22:42 pm
Your lack of faith in Kellhus is disturbing.

I'm firmly planting my flag in the camp of Kellhus still being the major player.  Here's why.

1.  Kellhus saw himself within the inverse fire, not as fodder, but descending as hunger.
2.  Nauir was described as a Prince of Hell by the judging eye because some souls were too powerful.
3.  All the gods exist outside of time in some fashion.  So once you're a God, you've always been a God since even before the beginning of the series.
4.  Nothing that has happened so far, contradicts TTT as outlined between Kellhus and his father Moe.
5.  In the conversations between Khell and the unnamed outside entity, the outside entity says he wars with the God and to draw him out he needs to raze the fields.  Khell says he is the one who tends the fields (paraphrasing here).

So all signs point to Kellhus being some demon.  He's a hunger in the outside, not food.  So that means he's *always* been around.  I suspect he's the outside entity Kellhus has been communing with and has been using his mortal past self as a tool.  Moe's version of TTT specifically outlined how premeditated disasters would keep piling on TGO.  Kellhus sees farther but we're never actually told that he would reverse the disasters for TGO.  I believe in his own Dunyain way, Kellhus, as an Outside entity, would do what he does and use anything and everything including himself.  The endgoal is to take down the God.

I think of the meta clues of the series.  If the last series is just the downfall of mankind, there's no narrative there.  It's just losing and there's no point in extending the series.  Since we know Bakker was going to end the series with AE, the closest way to end the series while having leeway to extend it by a few books is a bootstrap paradox.  Originally the series ends with Kellhus completing a temporal loop, becoming the God he's always been the entire series.  The extended series draws this process out.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: Wilshire on March 19, 2018, 02:32:29 pm
Your lack of faith in Kellhus is disturbing.
Good. ;)

1.  Kellhus saw himself within the inverse fire, not as fodder, but descending as hunger.
Assuming it was Kellhus doing the seeing and not Ajokli, blah blah blah, then yeah that's pretty strong evidence that his future in the Outside (should his soul get there) would not be one of the nameless tortured souls.

2.  Nauir was described as a Prince of Hell by the judging eye because some souls were too powerful.
Described as Prince of Hell certainly. Not to prove or disprove anything, but I'm wondering generally if there was a 'because' clearly written in the book? The two halves of the above point are true independently, I'm just wondering if they were ever presented together like that.

3.  All the gods exist outside of time in some fashion.  So once you're a God, you've always been a God since even before the beginning of the series.
Pretty straightforward there - as straightforward as a-temporal beings existing in a linear time universe are straightforward, lol.

4.  Nothing that has happened so far, contradicts TTT as outlined between Kellhus and his father Moe.
Any chance you can clarify this? What TTT was outline and not contradicted?

IIRC, TTT as presented by Moenghus was immediately co-opted by Kellhus, so in that sense Moeghus' TTT was destroyed utterly from the second Kellhus entered Kyudia. I'm guessing you meant that in a more general sense - so what generally is TTT you're referring too?


5.  In the conversations between Khell and the unnamed outside entity, the outside entity says he wars with the God and to draw him out he needs to raze the fields.  Khell says he is the one who tends the fields (paraphrasing here).
I always took this to contradict your main point here. It seemed to me that Kellhus' "but I tend the fields" was a defiant statement - basically saying "You cannot burn the fields as long as I am tending them".

But that Unnamed Entity is curious. It would be strange, from a plot/worldbuilding/thematic sense, to add in such a character with no background into book 6, not mention it again until book 8 and have it be some random God bent of usurping The God. Doesn't make sense. It almost certainly has to be someone (something) we've seen already.

Moe's version of TTT specifically outlined how premeditated disasters would keep piling on TGO.  Kellhus sees farther but we're never actually told that he would reverse the disasters for TGO.
Same question above, is that really what Moe tells us about TTT? I don't remember that being the case. I thought all we really got was something like 'the holy was was necessary to unite humanity under one banner so that an army could be raised to contest the Consult before the No God awakens'.

Not that this diminishes your overall point though.

I suspect he's the outside entity Kellhus has been communing with and has been using his mortal past self as a tool. 
...
I believe in his own Dunyain way, Kellhus, as an Outside entity, would do what he does and use anything and everything including himself.  The endgoal is to take down the God.
I think that conclusion follows the assumptions laid out above, and if this is how things turn out I won't be disappointed.

I do think a slight correction though: taking down God is a stepping stone. Kellhus' goal is to become The Absolute self moving soul, and the only way to do that is to have no darkness preceding him, which means he must become The God (therefore killing it to replace)


I think of the meta clues of the series.  If the last series is just the downfall of mankind, there's no narrative there.  It's just losing and there's no point in extending the series.  Since we know Bakker was going to end the series with AE, the closest way to end the series while having leeway to extend it by a few books is a bootstrap paradox.  Originally the series ends with Kellhus completing a temporal loop, becoming the God he's always been the entire series.  The extended series draws this process out.

I've been thinking about the story structure, or 'meta clues' a lot lately. There's a lot of theories out there that are at least internally consistent, but that don't really fit into what I'd describe as the theme (or worldbuilding, or plot development ... whatever).

I will correct one thing there though, the series was never to end with TAE - he only ever said he'd be satisfied being able to tell the story through TAE even if he never got to do the rest. There was always TNG (in its initial inception, TSA was a 3 book series, TNG as book 3).

For what its worth, I think you're right that if the story is planned to continue on as it has been, placing Kellhus in the Outside is probably the most viable way to continue on. That said, I suspect that the final few books in TNG series will be structured vastly differently to the previous books. More of an extended epilogue than anything else. Its for that reason that I don't believe we'll ever know who the Unnamed Entity is, or what Kellhus' final fate truly was. Again, that doesn't make your conclusion any less valid, I just don't see us getting an answer.

Cheers MGM :). Nice to read you again.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: H on March 21, 2018, 10:53:09 am
I always took this to contradict your main point here. It seemed to me that Kellhus' "but I tend the fields" was a defiant statement - basically saying "You cannot burn the fields as long as I am tending them".

But that Unnamed Entity is curious. It would be strange, from a plot/worldbuilding/thematic sense, to add in such a character with no background into book 6, not mention it again until book 8 and have it be some random God bent of usurping The God. Doesn't make sense. It almost certainly has to be someone (something) we've seen already.

I still think Ajokli is the most likely suspect here.

Wasn't it stated somewhere else that the other 99 war with Ajokli?  Or him with them?

I mean, even at face value, the idea for one of the 100 to seize control of the "granary" makes perfect sense as does the idea that it would be Ajokli, since something like hell is his domain.  Unfortunately, I don't think we'll ever get anything more than circumstantial evidence on this.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: Wilshire on March 21, 2018, 11:27:50 am
Ajokli is the other obvious contender for the title.

I really wish we had more info to go with though.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: MSJ on March 21, 2018, 04:13:31 pm
If its Ajokli then it leans credence to Ajokli is Kellhus theories. Kellhus is speaking to what look likes himself in those scenes.

I'm still sticking to my guns and say its Kellhus's little niche hidden away from all the Gods. Remember, once he dies and becomes a God/Ciphrang then he can affect events all throughout time. It almost fits too well for the TT, for it not to be Kellhus. Though, its more likely wishful thinking.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: Wilshire on March 21, 2018, 04:21:09 pm
Its compelling, though to me more if Kellhus doesn't know its himself.

I'm not sure Ciphrang operate on the whole a-temporal scale. I always thought that was part of their lesser-demon-ness. Similar to how I don't think simply being in the Outside (Kellhus via Diamos) lets whoever it is to see all of time. I generally like the idea of certain souls becoming powerful enough in life to be Ciphrang once they die, but there's got to be something that separates the various 'power levels' of the outside. Controlling a whole corner of subjective reality space is one thing certainly, but seeing fully/deeply into the Inside and seeing 'all time', as well as being able to manipulate it in whatever fashion, all seem like things I'd ascribe to only Gods rather than all Ciphrang.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: MSJ on March 21, 2018, 04:28:24 pm
Quote from:  Wilshire
Its compelling, though to me more if Kellhus doesn't know its himself.

Of course. And in book Kellhus definitely had no clue. The tend the fields line, is a hint that it could be true.

Quote
I'm not sure Ciphrang operate on the whole a-temporal scale. I always thought that was part of their lesser-demon-ness. Similar to how I don't think simply being in the Outside (Kellhus via Diamos) lets whoever it is to see all of time. I generally like the idea of certain souls becoming powerful enough in life to be Ciphrang once they die, but there's got to be something that separates the various 'power levels' of the outside. Controlling a whole corner of subjective reality space is one thing certainly, but seeing fully/deeply into the Inside and seeing 'all time', as well as being able to manipulate it in whatever fashion, all seem like things I'd ascribe to only Gods rather than all Ciphrang.

I agree. But, if Bakker describes Kellhus's use of sorcery as to that of the God, he is definitely more than a Ciphrang. I'd say, his many trips through the Outside via the Diamos he definitely made contingencies. Now, if he's hidden in the Outside, a corner to his self, I don't know about how the timeline thing would work. Definitely interesting to think on.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: TheCulminatingApe on March 30, 2018, 07:17:51 pm
The most mundane interpretation would be that he is dead and gone, but 'lives on' through his influence on others as a religious figure.  I suspect there's more to it than that though.

Difficult to say. Probably something along two fronts. One is that 'not done' means that he has plans and machinations in the works that are still in play. The other front is the idea that Ajokli can't find him in the outside. So 'not done' might also be (either/or) that he's in limbo somewhere. Limbo could be 'the space between the gods'/'oblivion', could be be ascended into Absolute status above and beyond Ajokli and his Outside (Outside the Outside, as it were), or it could be something of him existing in the mundane world somehow (Pokemon Heads, though seemingly ridiculous, are a compelling option).
Probably both.  Suspect he has set things in motion that are still in play, and that whilst physically dead, his soul is still active as an independent player.

Bakker said the following in regard to souls -

"The problems souls encounter in the Outside is that they're puny, and so find themselves trapped in intentional realities belonging to infernal and divine agencies. This is why powerful souls (think Gin'yursis) often carve out different fates after death."

It will be interesting to see what Kellhus spirit is capable of, he has immense intelligence, but Bakker has specifically said the Dunyain are spiritually weak.

1.  Kellhus saw himself within the inverse fire, not as fodder, but descending as hunger.
2.  Nauir was described as a Prince of Hell by the judging eye because some souls were too powerful.

So all signs point to Kellhus being some demon.  He's a hunger in the outside, not food. 

I think of the meta clues of the series.  If the last series is just the downfall of mankind, there's no narrative there.  It's just losing and there's no point in extending the series. 

This seems the most likely explanation to me.  There's also a point made by Proyas (can't remember whether its in TGO or TUC) something along the lines of "Kellhus is responsible for more deaths than anyone who has ever lived".  He's also got millions to transgress scripture, and many thousand to engage in Sranc eating and cannibalism. 
Mimara had 'never seen one so damned' as Cnaiur.  I would say Kellhus is damned on another level of magnitude.
Spiritually, the books imply strongly that he feels love, and may not be the typical Dunyain in this respect.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: Cuttlefish on August 06, 2018, 08:27:59 pm
Spiritually, the books imply strongly that he feels love, and may not be the typical Dunyain in this respect.

The Dunyain all feel love though; at the very least, emotions. Moenghus confirms it that the Dunyain have been unable to completely breed out emotions, and we have examples like the Survivor, who saves the crab handed boy despite he is a defective, because it's his son. Kellhus is clearer in this respect, because so many years later, he has completely abandoned the Dunyain ideology; they all have after contact with the outside world, realizing that it was all built on a lie. Why else would the Mutiliated strive to save their souls, when for a thousand years, they've denied their very existence? Because they're afraid!
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: Wilshire on August 07, 2018, 03:41:44 pm
Re: Mutilated Machinations

Just want to throw out that they might not give a damn about their souls, or even believe in them, but simply belive the shortest path to being a self moving soul is to remove the original movers from the game.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: Cuttlefish on August 07, 2018, 06:40:06 pm
Re: Mutilated Machinations

Just want to throw out that they might not give a damn about their souls, or even believe in them, but simply belive the shortest path to being a self moving soul is to remove the original movers from the game.

I don't believe so; they seemed genuine, when they believed witnessing his own suffering in the Inverse Fire could make Kellhus defect. Clearly, they thought it is traumatizing enough to influence another Dunyain.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: Wilshire on August 07, 2018, 06:53:44 pm
A Dunyain more than any other would take advantage of the sharpest tool with which to make their point, but that doesn't suddenly mean they shed two thousand years of conditioning. Ultimately, every Dunyain we see is the same. They all pursue what they believe to be the shortest path to the Absolute. Moenghus picked TTT, died, Kellhus picked magic, died, Koringhus typical dunyain stuff but encountered TJE, died, Mutilated picked Tekne, some died and some lived.

The Boy is the only one left untested, but it appears that the Mutilated (by happenstance or virtue) appear to be the only ones left on the path, making theirs the shortest lol.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: themerchant on August 09, 2018, 10:42:02 pm
Perhaps Kellhus has managed to get Ajokli stuck in Earwa and at the same time got sent to hell and supplants him.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: TaoHorror on August 10, 2018, 02:27:57 am
Perhaps Kellhus has managed to get Ajokli stuck in Earwa and at the same time got sent to hell and supplants him.

That would be wicked!
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: BeardFisher-King on August 10, 2018, 04:48:42 am
Perhaps Kellhus has managed to get Ajokli stuck in Earwa and at the same time got sent to hell and supplants him.

That would be wicked!
Kellhus, upon arriving in Hell:

"Listen up! I am here to chew bubblegum and feast on souls, and I am all out of bubblegum!"
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: TaoHorror on August 10, 2018, 02:25:12 pm
Perhaps Kellhus has managed to get Ajokli stuck in Earwa and at the same time got sent to hell and supplants him.

That would be wicked!
Kellhus, upon arriving in Hell:

"Listen up! I am here to chew bubblegum and feast on souls, and I am all out of bubblegum!"

Roddy Ronnie Piper - RIP
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: Francis Buck on August 13, 2018, 10:08:08 am
Perhaps Kellhus has managed to get Ajokli stuck in Earwa and at the same time got sent to hell and supplants him.

I dig this. Very clever idea and would seem too explain several things...

Too early in the morning for me to wrap my around head the causal/atemporal ramifications of this if it is true.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: Cuttlefish on August 23, 2018, 01:13:12 pm
Re: Mutilated Machinations

Just want to throw out that they might not give a damn about their souls, or even believe in them, but simply belive the shortest path to being a self moving soul is to remove the original movers from the game.

About this, I found an interesting passage from the last book of the first trilogy, where Kellhus predicts what his father would do if he came to realize he was damned:

Kellhus looked to the haloes about his hands. The crimes youve committed, Father the sins When you learn of the damnation that awaits you, when you come to believe, you will be no different from the Inchoroi. As Dnyain, you will be compelled to master the consequences of your wickedness. Like the Consult, you will come to see tyranny in what is holy And you will war as they war.

Kellhus fell back into himself, opened his deeper soul to the details of his fathers nearly naked form, assessing, appraising. The strength of limbs. The speed of reflexes.

 Must move quickly.

To shut the World against the Outside, the pale lips said. To seal it through the extermination of mankind

As Ishul is shut against the Wilderness, Kellhus replied.

 For the Dnyain, it was axiomatic: what was compliant had to be isolated from what was unruly and intractable. Kellhus had seen it many times, wandering the labyrinth of possibilities that was the Thousandfold Thought: The Warrior-Prophets assassination. The rise of Anasrimbor Monghus to take his place. The apocalyptic conspiracies. The counterfeit war against Golgotterath. The accumulation of premeditated disasters. The sacrifice of whole nations to the gluttony of the Sranc. The Three Seas crashing into char and ruin.

The Gods baying like wolves at a silent gate.

Perhaps his father had yet to apprehend this. Perhaps he simply couldnt see past the arrival of his son. Or perhaps all thisthe accusations of madness, the concern over his unanticipated turnwas simply a ruse. Either way, it was irrelevant.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: Cuttlefish on August 25, 2018, 01:09:27 pm
Thinking more on Bakker's statement, I think I get a sense of what was the point throughout. I think the Great Ordeal was designed to fail from the getgo. Kellhus himself says to Proyas that the Consult, at one point, must win - and that what they do here rewrites the Hundred. He then explains himself to the Mutiliated as an Inverse Prophet (which, in my understanding, is supposed to be a prophet sent by mankind to the gods, as opposed to sent to mankind by the gods); he not only delivers one of the Gods, Ajokli, into defeat at the hands of the Unholy Consult (possibly even death), but also makes the Judging Eye itself acknowledge the existence of No-God. Maybe now the Gods have to take notice, realizing the power of the absence that No-God represents.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: SmilerLoki on August 25, 2018, 03:17:18 pm
Thinking more on Bakker's statement, I think I get a sense of what was the point throughout. I think the Great Ordeal was designed to fail from the getgo. Kellhus himself says to Proyas that the Consult, at one point, must win - and that what they do here rewrites the Hundred. He then explains himself to the Mutiliated as an Inverse Prophet (which, in my understanding, is supposed to be a prophet sent by mankind to the gods, as opposed to sent to mankind by the gods); he not only delivers one of the Gods, Ajokli, into defeat at the hands of the Unholy Consult (possibly even death), but also makes the Judging Eye itself acknowledge the existence of No-God. Maybe now the Gods have to take notice, realizing the power of the absence that No-God represents.
The God, who is presumably behind the Eye (and who is somewhat at odds with the Zero-God as outlined in The Survivor's revelation), is not one of the Gods, has a different nature, and therefore there is no reason to think He (It?) was ever blind to the No-God. On the matter of Ajokli, he is most certainly not dead, since he possessed Cnaiur after the events in the Golden Room.

I also don't see how he was defeated. He might not have achieved all of his goals, but he did get into the World, which is a big win. Assuming, of course, he is able to stay there, now that Kellhus is not supporting him with the Daimos.

[EDIT]
Oh, and also getting into the World and being kicked out of the Golden Room by Kelmomas did nothing to help Ajokli see the No-God.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: themerchant on August 25, 2018, 04:08:21 pm
Also remember the Dunyain Ajokli killed was right in the middle of saying how Ajokli is actually hiding from his brothers and sisters as he is being hunted by them.

Plus the gods weren't against Kellhus they were against Ajokli who was possessing Kellhus. As they can't see the No-God just Ajokli trying to get into the "inside".
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: Cuttlefish on August 25, 2018, 04:33:34 pm
Thinking more on Bakker's statement, I think I get a sense of what was the point throughout. I think the Great Ordeal was designed to fail from the getgo. Kellhus himself says to Proyas that the Consult, at one point, must win - and that what they do here rewrites the Hundred. He then explains himself to the Mutiliated as an Inverse Prophet (which, in my understanding, is supposed to be a prophet sent by mankind to the gods, as opposed to sent to mankind by the gods); he not only delivers one of the Gods, Ajokli, into defeat at the hands of the Unholy Consult (possibly even death), but also makes the Judging Eye itself acknowledge the existence of No-God. Maybe now the Gods have to take notice, realizing the power of the absence that No-God represents.
On the matter of Ajokli, he is most certainly not dead, since he possessed Cnaiur after the events in the Golden Room.

(...)

[EDIT]
Oh, and also getting into the World and being kicked out of the Golden Room by Kelmomas did nothing to help Ajokli see the No-God.

And didn't Cnair basically walk into No-God, as I recall?

The God, who is presumably behind the Eye (and who is somewhat at odds with the Zero-God as outlined in The Survivor's revelation), is not one of the Gods, has a different nature, and therefore there is no reason to think He (It?) was ever blind to the No-God.
[/quote]

There is no reason to think it isn't, though. We don't even quite know the nature of relationship between the Hundred and the Absolute; I think the priests suggest that he is basically a sum of them.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: Cuttlefish on August 25, 2018, 04:42:41 pm
Also remember the Dunyain Ajokli killed was right in the middle of saying how Ajokli is actually hiding from his brothers and sisters as he is being hunted by them.

Plus the gods weren't against Kellhus they were against Ajokli who was possessing Kellhus. As they can't see the No-God just Ajokli trying to get into the "inside".

I don't know, is it explicitly stated that the Gods hunted Kellhus because of Ajokli? That might've been a factor, but I don't suppose they take kindly to a false prophet, either.

Another thing to consider for what Kellhus intends is, what are the end possibilities?

a) The Consult wins, the world is shut through genocide - he is clearly opposed to this, I think that's pretty clearly established, going as back as the Warrior-Prophet.

b) Ajokli turns the world into a living hell. He might actually be up for this; it seemed that way in the last book. Maybe not, though?

c) Status quo. The world persists, the playground of cruel gods who impose arbitrary and restrictive rules upon humanity. The "good" ending, not so good.

We don't fully understand what Kellhus's relationship with Ajokli is, but in trying to prevent the destruction of the world, he wouldn't be inclined to return things to the way they were - at least I suppose not, because it's fairly miserable for mankind and Kellhus included.

There is, IIRC, no indication during the first trilogy that he made contact with Ajokli - he states that it is No-God who speaks to him. And yet, he is assured in the knowledge that he is not damned, as he no longer considers himself a Dunyain and believes the knowledge of their own damnation makes Dunyain a threat to the Thousandfold Thought. I think there is a Kellhus in-between the forces at play, be they Ajokli, the Consult or the Hundred, who may be playing a long con on all of them.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: SmilerLoki on August 25, 2018, 04:59:24 pm
And didn't Cnair basically walk into No-God, as I recall?
Indeed he did, and Cnaiur's body was destroyed, just as Kellhus's was before. But Ajokli evidently didn't die when Kellhus did, so it stands to reason that destruction of possessed body doesn't destroy him.

There is no reason to think it isn't, though.
There is in the sense that Absolute ([EDIT] it's probably better to call it the God of Gods, just so not to confuse it with the Absolute of the Dunyain) is also atemporal, so seeing the No-God at the end of TUC means the God sees/has seen it always.

I don't know, is it explicitly stated that the Gods hunted Kellhus because of Ajokli?
Not to my knowledge, no.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: Cuttlefish on August 25, 2018, 05:51:45 pm
Indeed he did, and Cnaiur's body was destroyed, just as Kellhus's was before. But Ajokli evidently didn't die when Kellhus did, so it stands to reason that destruction of possessed body doesn't destroy him.

Ajokli wasn't inhabiting Kellhus when he died, though. And it wasn't No-God that killed Kellhus, it was a Chorae. He might've still survived the encounter, but he definitely witnessed the No-God.

And another interesting bit is that, when Cnair is possessed by Ajokli, he is uttering his usual boasts of vengeance against Kellhus, but when Kellhus was possessed, it seemed like it was Ajokli speaking. Unless, when Cnair's the host, it is Ajokli who is swearing vengeance against Kellhus.

]
There is in the sense that Absolute ([EDIT] it's probably better to call it the God of Gods, just so not to confuse it with the Absolute of the Dunyain) is also atemporal, so seeing the No-God at the end of TUC means the God sees/has seen it always.

That's an interesting thought, and the Godliest God might've chosen not to intervene in the First Apocalypse so as to not change the sequence of events leading it into seeing the No-God, and therefore becoming aware of it.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: SmilerLoki on August 25, 2018, 06:11:33 pm
Ajokli wasn't inhabiting Kellhus when he died, though. And it wasn't No-God that killed Kellhus, it was a Chorae. He might've still survived the encounter, but he definitely witnessed the No-God.
Yes, Ajokli was "short-circuited" by the proximity to the No-God in the form of Kelmomas. When Ajokli-Cnaiur walked into the Whirlwind, the same thing should have happened the moment he came into the No-God's direct area of influence. If he didn't, then just the body was destroyed (by the Whirlwind, without getting directly influenced by the No-God), and Ajokli can hop between them even when forced out, like he hopped from Kellhus to Cnaiur.

And another interesting bit is that, when Cnair is possessed by Ajokli, he is uttering his usual boasts of vengeance against Kellhus, but when Kellhus was possessed, it seemed like it was Ajokli speaking. Unless, when Cnair's the host, it is Ajokli who is swearing vengeance against Kellhus.
At some point I speculated that the host influences Ajokli's personality, so Ajokli-Kellhus is not completely the same as Ajokli-Cnaiur. The nature and goals of the Trickster are preserved, but some quirks of the host's personality also play a part. Like, for example, Kellhus's scheming or Cnaiur's hatred. Other people went even farther, postulating that it was the "birth" of Ajokli the Trikster and at the same time Prince of Hate as he's described in the books. It invokes atemporality in exactly the same way you did below.

That's an interesting thought, and the Godliest God might've chosen not to intervene in the First Apocalypse so as to not change the sequence of events leading it into seeing the No-God, and therefore becoming aware of it.
It's really hard to speculate about the God of Gods, since Bakker expressed very strange views on the subject through Kellhus (his talks with Proyas). I'm completely unsure whether the concept of causality, for example, is at all relevant when we're talking about the God of Gods.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: Cuttlefish on August 25, 2018, 06:35:54 pm
Yes, Ajokli was "short-circuited" by the proximity to the No-God in the form of Kelmomas. When Ajokli-Cnaiur walked into the Whirlwind, the same thing should have happened the moment he came into the No-God's direct area of influence. If he didn't, then just the body was destroyed (by the Whirlwind, without getting directly influenced by the No-God), and Ajokli can hop between them even when forced out, like he hopped from Kellhus to Cnaiur.

Just why Ajokli stopped inhabiting Kellhus isn't clear to me; it seemed like he was shocked at being approached by something he did not see coming (though whether it was Kellhus who was shocked or Ajokli, that wasn't really clear either).

However, Cnair comes far more closer to No-God. This is the book section:

The Whirlwind blotted all Creation before him, blowing bodies outward and sucking bodies up as it advanced. A million blasting needles sheared the scars from his skin, leaving his windward surfaces striped in living fire. And they roiled like burning grease within him, the indignities he had suffered, the grudges and grievances he bore! Such a toll as only murder could redeem!

SHOW THYSELF SO THAT I MIGHT STRIKE THEE!

Skin pealed back from tissue, sloughed as parchment. Bleeding was struck into mist.
WHAT DO YOU SEE?

Even as it blinded the wind laid bare, exposing structures, devouring them, displaying the lurid layers beneath. With Hells own eyes, Cnair urs Skitha peered up into the void and saw nothing.
REVEAL! REVEAL THYSELF!
Flesh disintegrated. A vicious black climbed over all things, grew numb.

WHAT AM I?


"With hell's own eyes", he looks at No-God, and sees nothing... which is in keeping with the idea that the Gods can't see him. But unless Ajokli is the runt of the litter, the god of stupidity or the intellect of gods work in different ways, he should be able to realize something is up with the No-God.

Assuming he didn't die, of course. Unlike Kellhus's death, there is no indication that he actually left Cnair at this point. But that's a rather useless argument, because Bakker's prose was frustratingly vague towards the end of this book.


At some point I speculated that the host influences Ajokli's personality, so Ajokli-Kellhus is not completely the same as Ajokli-Cnaiur. The nature and goals of the Trickster are preserved, but some quirks of the host's personality also play a part. Like, for example, Kellhus's scheming or Cnaiur's hatred. Other people went even farther, postulating that it was the "birth" of Ajokli the Trikster and at the same time Prince of Hate as he described in the books. It invokes atemporality in exactly the same way you did below.

That's a bit anti-climactic, isn't it, that a God should insert himself into the story in like, two chapters of the book, and be born through it? I'm more inclined to believe that Ajokli is better disposed towards connecting to Kellhus and Cnair because his realm is deception and hatred, than being born out of them. Though he could perhaps be an amalgation of the two, I don't find it likely that he gained his definining attributes through a few minutes of contact to two mortals (if they are, at all!)

It's really hard to speculate about the God of Gods, since Bakker expressed very strange views on the subject through Kellhus (his talks with Proyas). I'm completely unsure whether the concept of causality, for example, is at all relevant when we're talking about the God of Gods.

Well, we can discern a few things. Both Kellhus and Koringhus, possessing probably the two greatest intellects in the series, grasp the nature of the God of Gods through distinct means, and their understanding of it seems to match each other. Both of them, for example, point out that the idea it has human features (as in, emotions), is faulty.

Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: SmilerLoki on August 25, 2018, 07:12:59 pm
Just why Ajokli stopped inhabiting Kellhus isn't clear to me; it seemed like he was shocked at being approached by something he did not see coming (though whether it was Kellhus who was shocked or Ajokli, that wasn't really clear either).
The Gods cannot exist in the presence of the No-God or its seed, in this case Kelmomas. It's the same as with the White-Luck Warrior being killed both times when Kelmomas appeared nearby in a crucial moment. The White-Luck Warrior required the divine, a facet of Yatwer, to function. It's that facet that was exorcised by Kelmomas. Ajokli was exorcised from Kellhus the same way.

I'll try to find a better answer in Bakker's posts. Right now I can give you confirmation that Ajokli is alive and also an answer to your question about him inferring the existence of the No-God:
http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=2278.msg36488#msg36488

[EDIT] Here it is:
Quote from: R. Scott Bakker
Kelmomas is the No-God, and as such invisible to the Gods. He stands outside the outside. This is why he short-circuits both incarnations of the White-Luck Warrior. And this is why he short-circuits Ajokli/Kellhus. This is why only Kellhus is salted.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/6r3hba/unholy_consultation_r_scott_bakker_bares_the_soul/dl24wvn/

However, Cnair comes far more closer to No-God.
Not at all. When the Whirlwind is active, the No-God is high up in the sky, significantly higher than a sorcerer can walk on echoes of the ground. Cnaiur approached the Whirlwind on foot. He was much farther from the Sarcophagus than Kellhus was from Kelmomas in the Golden Room.

That's a bit anti-climactic, isn't it, that a God should insert himself into the story in like, two chapters of the book, and be born through it?
I, too, dislike it, but that is not an argument.

Though he could perhaps be an amalgation of the two, I don't find it likely that he gained his definining attributes through a few minutes of contact to two mortals (if they are, at all!
It is, though, the only time we see a God enter the World wholly and possessing mortals as his vessels.

Well, we can discern a few things. Both Kellhus and Koringhus, possessing probably the two greatest intellects in the series, grasp the nature of the God of Gods through distinct means
I strongly dispute this. However smart they might be, being finite compared to infinity means they are infinitely far away from grasping the God of Gods. They might understand the concept better than other characters, true, but grasping the nature of the God is another thing entirely.

and their understanding of it seems to match each other
I also feel that their understanding of the God differs significantly, just as their actions are not the same. Koringhus embraces Zero, while Kellhus - well, we don't know what exactly Kellhus did, but my money's on Metagnosis, which is a fractional thing, infinitely removed from the God.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: SmilerLoki on August 25, 2018, 09:27:09 pm
Oh, and there is another thing I forgot to mention. Not one of the Gods, atemporal beings, can die (at least not in a straightforward way). Dying for them would mean never existing in the first place, which would result in a completely different series. So the fact that Ajokli was mentioned in the past indicates that he's still alive in the present. By extension that would mean that Ajokli still retains all of his influence in the Outside while being in the World.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: themerchant on August 26, 2018, 03:40:56 am
It's not stated in explicitly in the text but to me it seems obvious the gods are hunting Ajokli (as kellhus) that's why they say he is a demon the deep, it's also explained in the Sorweel WLW sequences when he speaks to his mother and she explains sometimes a hunger from the deep escapes into the world etc, then the Dunyain deducing that the gods are hunting Ajokli and he is hiding from them.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: dragharrow on September 13, 2018, 01:58:34 pm
Sorry to go back to the beginning of the thread but I have to hear more about this!

This is a quote from the Con. Bakker confirmed his death, but still must have some sort of role to play. I started the thread because if like to hear everyone's thought on what this could possibly constitute. Here's a few of my thoughts I've had on it...

... Oh, and Bakker did confirm he is not in the Outside. Maybe one can't take Bakker for his word and he is wily when answering questions. But, for this thread, he is dead and not done and isn't on the Outside. What ya think about it?

What? He did? Kellhus is not in the outside?

There is zero chance that Kellhus getting burned up by a Chorae would be enough to deliver him to total oblivion. Plus Bakker saying he's not done means that's not really an option anyway. So if he's not in the outside then that confirms that he's got a dirty trick going on with the Daimos or the Ciphrang heads or whatever.

That's really interesting. When did Bakker confirm that? I had totally assumed that Kellhus was falling on the hells as a conquering hunger like he says.

I guess that still leaves that he's cheated his way into some kind of limbo or personal demesne but even that would be in the outside I would think. So hard Daimos trickery that keeps his soul on the inside seems to be by far the most likely option by far. Weird
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: Wilshire on September 13, 2018, 02:07:11 pm
FWIW "dead but not done" to mean can only mean that kellhus is dead in literally every possible sense of the world, but that he still has plans in action. I am certain there will be no further actions committed by kellhus, because yes, the chorae destroyed him utterly. The further clarification that he is 'not in the outside' confirms this beyond questioning.

Kellhus has gone the way of his father before him - dead, removed from the story, but with some simmering pots left on the oven that might still finish even postmortem without further interaction.

Zaudunyanicon is from whence the referenced information came - that thing some of us put together and got Bakker to show up and talk at last summer.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: Cyx on September 13, 2018, 04:43:23 pm
Where does Bakker confirm he isn't in the Outside?

I get that Ajokli seemingly can't find him...  that doesn't necessarily mean K isn't Outside.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: themerchant on September 13, 2018, 04:47:05 pm
Yeah this is something i've been wondering about.

How do we know Ajokli can even sense the outside with the No-god active.

Just cause Ajokli is looking for Kellhus doesn't mean he isn't in the outside. Although he is probably in a head.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: SmilerLoki on September 13, 2018, 04:51:35 pm
How do we know Ajokli can even sense the outside with the No-god active.
The world is not closed yet. Ajokli is a being of the Outside, without access to it, he shouldn't exist, the way I understand it.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: TaoHorror on September 13, 2018, 05:34:27 pm
Kellhus has gone the way of his father before him - dead, removed from the story, but with some simmering pots left on the oven that might still finish even postmortem without further interaction.

Where's his soul? Destroyed? Food in Hell? Other? I don't recall salting destroying a soul, but it's been a while since I've read the books.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: Wilshire on September 13, 2018, 05:38:11 pm
Isn't there something about chorae destroying souls? Maybe I made it up lol. If not, I don't know where Kellhus went :P .
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: SmilerLoki on September 13, 2018, 06:46:12 pm
Isn't there something about chorae destroying souls? Maybe I made it up lol. If not, I don't know where Kellhus went :P .
I remember nothing like this. They are just fatal for sorcerers in a fancy way.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: H on September 13, 2018, 07:56:23 pm
Isn't there something about chorae destroying souls? Maybe I made it up lol. If not, I don't know where Kellhus went :P .

There is the unresolved issue of the second Decapitant.  We know, from what he does to Malowebi, that there is a functional use, they aren't mere trophies or decorations.  It's plausible he was not really even in the Golden Room, at least, not his soul.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: dragharrow on September 14, 2018, 05:29:50 am
Isn't there something about chorae destroying souls? Maybe I made it up lol. If not, I don't know where Kellhus went

no way. Chorae do not destroy a soul and remove it from the game. If they did that would undermine the main metaphysical tension that drives all the factions in the story to go to war over damnation.

We have two inchoroi left, both mages through grafting. The entire purpose of the inchoroi's millennia long campaign through space was to avoid hell.

If they could pick up a chorae and have it incinerate their soul and send them to oblivion instead of hell they would have done it on the spot. They could have skipped all the nonsense with the apocalypses and the no god and just disappeared. No eternity in hell so all good. Maybe they slightly prefer the idea of killing the gods and living forever on Earwa as immortal bio freaks, but that's just a preference. Their guiding purpose is avoiding hell and they'd be happy to die on the spot if it meant avoiding damnation. Or similarly, think of all the failed attempts the nonmen investigated to find oblivion over hell.

In the books, lots of people are concerned by the likelihood they'll go to hell but mages are even more concerned. They fear they'll be damned the worst. If being burnt up by a chorae let you avoid that, then every mage would chill out about their eternal damnation, and also be obsessed with making sure the way they died was by chorae. Every school would have a ritual where old mages get chorae-ed to make sure they go to oblivion instead of hell. We don't see any of that. Akka talks constantly about how he's going to end up in hell, and he never says anything to indicate that he'd prefer dying by chorae than old age, for example.

FWIW "dead but not done" to mean can only mean that kellhus is dead in literally every possible sense of the world, but that he still has plans in action. I am certain there will be no further actions committed by kellhus, because yes, the chorae destroyed him utterly. The further clarification that he is 'not in the outside' confirms this beyond questioning.

I feel like it's the opposite. There's no way Kellhus found the rare treasure of oblivion.

-Either he's full on dead and he's in hell in the outside being munched on by demons.
-Or he's full on dead and he's in the outside munching on demons.
-Or he's not really dead, and he pulled some Daimos bullshit to keep himself on the inside. Maybe in the decapitant like people are saying.

But I always thought the idea that Kellhus cheated and is still in the inside in the decapitant or whatever was super crazy. I definitely thought he was done, at least story wise. He's dead and he's not going to be a driving factor anymore. But that requires him going to hell.

So if Bakker says he's not in the outside, that seems like a big reveal to me. That seems to strongly indicate that it's daimos trickery of some kind.


Kellhus has gone the way of his father before him - dead, removed from the story, but with some simmering pots left on the oven that might still finish even postmortem without further interaction.

Moenghus is definitely in the outside though. He's in hell getting eaten by demons. He didn't slip by the metaphysics and make it to oblivion.


Zaudunyanicon is from whence the referenced information came - that thing some of us put together and got Bakker to show up and talk at last summer.

Aw man, that's awesome. I really wish I could have made it. That sounds so fun
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: TaoHorror on September 14, 2018, 12:39:33 pm
They could have skipped all the nonsense with the apocalypses and the no god ...

"nonsense" ... love how you put it like that  ;D

Aw man, that's awesome. I really wish I could have made it. That sounds so fun

Agreed - I will definitely make the next one if/when it materializes. I'm much more comfortable and confident with my dietary conditions which made me too uneasy to make the trip, the wonderful support by this group notwithstanding.

I think many ( all? ) of us, whether we want to admit it or not, want to see more Kellhus in the next reads - it's more than just "liking" or "rooting" for the guy - he was the focus of 7 books! That's a serious commitment from the readers, so I don't beat myself up hoping he's more "not done" than "dead". That said, I'll accept whatever is coming.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: themerchant on September 14, 2018, 05:08:41 pm
How do we know Ajokli can even sense the outside with the No-god active.
The world is not closed yet. Ajokli is a being of the Outside, without access to it, he shouldn't exist, the way I understand it.

It is to souls though, Mimara second baby was still born, the soul that encounters him goes no further.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: SmilerLoki on September 14, 2018, 07:32:25 pm
It is to souls though, Mimara second baby was still born, the soul that encounters him goes no further.
It's a strange thing. Yes, the No-God does something with birth, though we don't know what. But just by being there it doesn't close the world. Sorcery is contingent on the Outside and still works, the Gods are able to act and were able in the First Apocalypse, I'm pretty sure Ciphrang can still be summoned, and also, as dragharrow succinctly put it above, if it was enough for the No-God to just exist to prevent souls from going to Hell (or, much less likely, Heaven), the whole Apocalypse and 144k thing would've been totally unnecessary.

Considering all of this, I don't think it is correct to say that the world is closed in any way.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: MSJ on September 14, 2018, 10:14:18 pm
Quote from:  SmilerLoki
It's a strange thing. Yes, the No-God does something with birth, though we don't know what. But just by being there it doesn't close the world. Sorcery is contingent on the Outside and still works, the Gods are able to act and were able in the First Apocalypse, I'm pretty sure Ciphrang can still be summoned, and also, as dragharrow succinctly put it above, if it was enough for the No-God to just exist to prevent souls from going to Hell (or, much less likely, Heaven), the whole Apocalypse and 144k thing would've been totally unnecessary.

Considering all of this, I don't think it is correct to say that the world is closed in any way.

All of that is true, just I have a thought on the above bolded. It's said/prophesied that once the population is below 144,000 then Earwa is shut from the Outside. Hence, the No-God. The means to reduce the population to below 144,000. That is the plan of the Consult/Mutilated, to free themselves of damnation. That number was never needed to raise the No-God, it is the goal.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: SmilerLoki on September 14, 2018, 10:23:34 pm
That number was never needed to raise the No-God, it is the goal.
It wasn't my intention to imply that this number is needed to raise the No-God. My personal understanding as of right now is, when the number is reached, the effect of the No-God will reach some kind of critical mass and change the world. The Consult expects this change to shut the world from the Outside.

In essence, the number is just a technical threshold in the System that is the No-God.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: MSJ on September 14, 2018, 11:55:56 pm
@SmilerLoki, I wasn't implying that you meant that. Sorry, if it sounded that way. ;)

But, over the years discussing these books, many are confused as to what the prophecy about 144,000 was about. Just read a few threads and you'll get what I'm talking about.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: SmilerLoki on September 15, 2018, 12:58:22 am
But, over the years discussing these books, many are confused as to what the prophecy about 144,000 was about. Just read a few threads and you'll get what I'm talking about.
My understanding of your post also was, it might be that the No-God itself is just a tool to reduce the population to the blessed 144k, with no other function. Which would mean the 144k is what needs to be achieved, not the No-God. Personally, i don't think so, as I've outlined above. But that's in no way certain, and is mainly based on the fact that the existence of the No-God even without the world being reduced to the 144k has a certain effect on the great cycle of souls, which involves the Outside. Additionally, there is that whole "invisible to the Gods" thing.

I take into account the facts themerchant have presented, but we differ in the level of significance we ascribe them.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: themerchant on September 15, 2018, 03:04:13 am
It is to souls though, Mimara second baby was still born, the soul that encounters him goes no further.
It's a strange thing. Yes, the No-God does something with birth, though we don't know what. But just by being there it doesn't close the world. Sorcery is contingent on the Outside and still works, the Gods are able to act and were able in the First Apocalypse, I'm pretty sure Ciphrang can still be summoned, and also, as dragharrow succinctly put it above, if it was enough for the No-God to just exist to prevent souls from going to Hell (or, much less likely, Heaven), the whole Apocalypse and 144k thing would've been totally unnecessary.

Considering all of this, I don't think it is correct to say that the world is closed in any way.

It stops all souls from going to the outside though.

The No-god has a shelf-life, exposing the code allows the no-god to make permanent the effect.

What do you think "the soul that encounters him goes no further" means in your context?

Obviously this is all speculation as no one really knows. For the purpose of debate i'll assume my weighting is correct (probably isn;t)
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: SmilerLoki on September 15, 2018, 04:10:25 am
It stops all souls from going to the outside though.
It certainly would be one interpretation of that line. But the issue is, in the infamous Dream Celmomas believed himself to be carried to Gilgaol's Heaven, which is in contention with the proposed interpretation.

[EDIT] I really dislike that Dream since it contradicts many things that would otherwise be all but set in stone.

[EDIT] And also the one where the Heron-Spear misses.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: MSJ on September 15, 2018, 02:18:15 pm
Quote from:  SmilerLoki
My understanding of your post also was, it might be that the No-God itself is just a tool to reduce the population to the blessed 144k, with no other function. Which would mean the 144k is what needs to be achieved, not the No-God. Personally, i don't think so, as I've outlined above. But that's in no way certain, and is mainly based on the fact that the existence of the No-God even without the world being reduced to the 144k has a certain effect on the great cycle of souls, which involves the Outside. Additionally, there is that whole "invisible to the Gods" thing.

Bakker said in a Q&A that when the Inchies inoculated the Nonmen and it resulted in the death of the females;  that they then found a dread function for the No-God. I assume that means that no births will occur during the rise of the No-God.

I have seen theories upon theories about 144,000. It's the only reason I mentioned it. One, that during Akka's dream where Nayu is a wretch in line, being led to the Golden Room, that the Consult was feeding the No-God. And, once it had 144,000 souls it would rise. We now know that's patently false.

The Outside is not shut, correct. Bakker has even stated that the gods can function, as you've said. But, the No-God has stopped the cycle of souls, hence the still births. To shut the Outside, it would seem that the No-Gods purpose is to whittle the population down to 144,000. It's like a threshold needed to shut the Gods off from the Inside (Earwa).

Again, I never expect to get the how's of things, only the why's.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: themerchant on September 15, 2018, 05:49:41 pm
It stops all souls from going to the outside though.
It certainly would be one interpretation of that line. But the issue is, in the infamous Dream Celmomas believed himself to be carried to Gilgaol's Heaven, which is in contention with the proposed interpretation.

[EDIT] I really dislike that Dream since it contradicts many things that would otherwise be all but set in stone.

[EDIT] And also the one where the Heron-Spear misses.

Yeah we have some competing evidence and no idea how much weight to put on each.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: themerchant on September 15, 2018, 05:54:11 pm
It stops all souls from going to the outside though.
It certainly would be one interpretation of that line. But the issue is, in the infamous Dream Celmomas believed himself to be carried to Gilgaol's Heaven, which is in contention with the proposed interpretation.



Although the dragon said to seswatha that the No-god ate his soul. or tasted it, something like that. Although that's from the dreams as well, so just as unreliable. Plus it seems that might not have been Gilgaol but Ajokli.

I'm not too wedded to any interpetation but for the purpose of testing theories it's good to air them and see who can spot inconsistencies or add other titbits to make it more robust.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: SmilerLoki on September 15, 2018, 08:07:01 pm
Although the dragon said to seswatha that the No-god ate his soul. or tasted it, something like that.
Skafra was even more cute about it, the exact quote is:
Quote from: R. Scott Bakker, "The Warrior-Prophet", Chapter One, Anserca
hath tasted thy King’s passing, and he saith, ‘It is done.’
That doesn't necessarily mean the No-God in any way claimed Celmomas's soul, it might only mean that it was aware of his passing away.

Also, there is this tidbit from TTT's Glossary:
Quote from: R. Scott Bakker, "The Thousandfold Thought", Encyclopedic Glossary
“[The] soul that encounters Him passes no further.”—A line from The Sagas referring to the Battleplain and the belief that all those who perish there remain trapped.
It outright states that this saying refers specifically to the Mengedda Plains, which is a known topos. Might be it's not that people who died there are trapped because of the No-God, it's that the Outside leaks in there, and with it the souls of those who died in the numerous battles of Mengedda.

I'm not too wedded to any interpetation but for the purpose of testing theories it's good to air them and see who can spot inconsistencies or add other titbits to make it more robust.
Surely!
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: Wilshire on September 17, 2018, 12:11:49 pm
Also, there is this tidbit from TTT's Glossary:
Quote from: R. Scott Bakker, "The Thousandfold Thought", Encyclopedic Glossary
[The] soul that encounters Him passes no further.A line from The Sagas referring to the Battleplain and the belief that all those who perish there remain trapped.
It outright states that this saying refers specifically to the Mengedda Plains, which is a known topos. Might be it's not that people who died there are trapped because of the No-God, it's that the Outside leaks in there, and with it the souls of those who died in the numerous battles of Mengedda.

Definitely an important footnote. We often use that line as gospel to be applied unilaterally, and the fact of still-born births during the NG reign as proof. The importance of that quote and the specificity is that the two are not necessarily connected.

Not necessarily disconnected either ;)
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: TLEILAXU on September 17, 2018, 07:47:32 pm
I think it's reasonable to take the statement about passing no further at face value, especially regarding later quotes such as "you seek to starve the Gods" etc.
However, as Smiler also mentioned, the dreams add uncertainty about all this, especially given the possible ambiguity regarding whether it's actually Gilgal we see or Ajokli. I actually asked Bakker about this in the AMA and this was his answer
Quote
The Trickster is as eternal as any of the other Gods.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: SmilerLoki on September 18, 2018, 12:44:27 am
"you seek to starve the Gods"
I always took that to mean after the world is shut. I.e. the world is shut, no souls go to the Outside, the Gods are starving.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: TaoHorror on September 18, 2018, 02:19:31 am
I think it's reasonable to take the statement about passing no further at face value, especially regarding later quotes such as "you seek to starve the Gods" etc.
However, as Smiler also mentioned, the dreams add uncertainty about all this, especially given the possible ambiguity regarding whether it's actually Gilgal we see or Ajokli. I actually asked Bakker about this in the AMA and this was his answer
Quote
The Trickster is as eternal as any of the other Gods.

Could the dreams have changed due to reality being rewritten? Given TWLW failing several times and the disruptions from lil' Kell may have rewritten the god(s) and they intervened differently in the past - like the Heron Spear now missing, etc. Which is interesting, if the Spear missed, what undid TNG the first time ...
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: SmilerLoki on September 18, 2018, 02:28:20 am
Could the dreams have changed due to reality being rewritten? Given TWLW failing several times and the disruptions from lil' Kell may have rewritten the god(s) and they intervened differently in the past - like the Heron Spear now missing, etc. Which is interesting, if the Spear missed, what undid TNG the first time ...
That would be contingent on the Dreams being atemporal, which we have no way to confirm or refute.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: TaoHorror on September 18, 2018, 12:14:45 pm
Could the dreams have changed due to reality being rewritten? Given TWLW failing several times and the disruptions from lil' Kell may have rewritten the god(s) and they intervened differently in the past - like the Heron Spear now missing, etc. Which is interesting, if the Spear missed, what undid TNG the first time ...
That would be contingent on the Dreams being atemporal, which we have no way to confirm or refute.

Not necessarily, though I'm no expert to timelessness, ofc. If reality was changed in the past, could be the things dreamed about changed, therefore the dreams are updated ( but this timelessness stuff is a rabbit hole, then Akka would have always dreamed the updated dreams and not recall them ever being different, etc ).
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: SmilerLoki on September 18, 2018, 12:59:24 pm
Not necessarily, though I'm no expert to timelessness, ofc. If reality was changed in the past, could be the things dreamed about changed, therefore the dreams are updated ( but this timelessness stuff is a rabbit hole, then Akka would have always dreamed the updated dreams and not recall them ever being different, etc ).
I believe we have a breakdown of communication somewhere. Reality doesn't change, the atemporal perspective changes. Like what happened with both White-Luck Warriors. What they saw from the atemporal perspective changed, but reality always had only one iteration.

[EDIT] Thinking more on it, the Dreams also perceive the No-God, which shouldn't be possible for something that has the atemporal perspective of the Outside, which is the thing that changes.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: Wilshire on September 18, 2018, 01:29:56 pm
What they saw from the atemporal perspective changed, but reality always had only one iteration.

FWIW, this is not what most people seem to be saying when talking about this subject. In fact, this may be the first time I've seem someone specifically say that reality exists as a stable fixture and remains unchanged.

So there is definitely miscommunication going on.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: SmilerLoki on September 18, 2018, 01:35:39 pm
FWIW, this is not what most people seem to be saying when talking about this subject. In fact, this may be the first time I've seem someone specifically say that reality exists as a stable fixture and remains unchanged.

So there is definitely miscommunication going on.
I outlined my thoughts on this matter (and some others) in a semi-concise fashion here:
http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=2267.msg37243#msg37243
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: Wilshire on September 18, 2018, 02:05:37 pm
As so you did
From:
Reply #32 on: August 04, 2017, 06:10:25 pm
with baztek and duskweaver.
Good stuff ;) , right around the time you registered... Oh, it was your first post thread even.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: SmilerLoki on September 18, 2018, 02:16:28 pm
Good stuff ;) , right around the time you registered... Oh, it was your first post thread even.
It's less impressive considering the fact that I've only created one thread to date. Though I do seem to advertise it more recently.

It's good to see some conclusions withstanding the trials of time. Of course, that's not to say anything is set in stone.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: Francis Buck on September 26, 2018, 07:02:07 pm
no way. Chorae do not destroy a soul and remove it from the game. If they did that would undermine the main metaphysical tension that drives all the factions in the story to go to war over damnation.

We have two inchoroi left, both mages through grafting. The entire purpose of the inchoroi's millennia long campaign through space was to avoid hell.

If they could pick up a chorae and have it incinerate their soul and send them to oblivion instead of hell they would have done it on the spot. They could have skipped all the nonsense with the apocalypses and the no god and just disappeared. No eternity in hell so all good. Maybe they slightly prefer the idea of killing the gods and living forever on Earwa as immortal bio freaks, but that's just a preference. Their guiding purpose is avoiding hell and they'd be happy to die on the spot if it meant avoiding damnation. Or similarly, think of all the failed attempts the nonmen investigated to find oblivion over hell.

I feel like it's the opposite. There's no way Kellhus found the rare treasure of oblivion.


-Either he's full on dead and he's in hell in the outside being munched on by demons.
-Or he's full on dead and he's in the outside munching on demons.
-Or he's not really dead, and he pulled some Daimos bullshit to keep himself on the inside. Maybe in the decapitant like people are saying.

But I always thought the idea that Kellhus cheated and is still in the inside in the decapitant or whatever was super crazy. I definitely thought he was done, at least story wise. He's dead and he's not going to be a driving factor anymore. But that requires him going to hell.

So if Bakker says he's not in the outside, that seems like a big reveal to me. That seems to strongly indicate that it's daimos trickery of some kind.

Agreed on all of this. I had pondered the Chorae possibility before -- wherein, perhaps, no one knew the annihilating effects of chorae -- but it simply lowers the stakes far, far too dramatically.

My thoughts are also identical regarding Kellhus. If he's not in the Outside, he's either in Oblivion or, somehow, still within the World. But having thought on it (since learning he wasn't in the Outside) I don't buy for one second that Kellhus got into Oblivion. Far too easy of a fate for him.

I actually have thread on this exact topic I'm working on but still haven't finished (it's gargantuan), but one of the things I've considered for quite a while is that when Kellhus went into the Outside and "seized the head on the pole", he indadvertantly fucked up something about the causality of his soul, in such in a manner that he is now forever doomed to live in the World (as some kind of disembodied spirit or something, a wight maybe, or a perhaps a "spirit" akin to Shauriatas).

I've also considered that, since the head on a pole seems to at least have connotations of a "sentience" which resides "behind the head", particularly considering RSB's Blind Brain Theory and his twisted version of "It thinks, therefore I am."

Who/what that "sentient head on the pole" might be I am not sure -- the God of Gods, perhaps -- or maybe Seswatha?

I find the latter is especially interesting given that text actually uses the term "Seswatha Homunculus"...

From wiki:
Quote
The assumption here is that there is a "little man" or "homunculus" inside the brain "looking at" the movie.The reason why this is a fallacy may be understood by asking how the homunculus "sees" the internal movie. The obvious answer is that there is another homunculus inside the first homunculus's "head" or "brain" looking at this "movie". But that raises the question of how this homunculus sees the "outside world". To answer that seems to require positing another homunculus inside this second homunculus's head, and so forth. In other words, a situation of infinite regress is created. The problem with the homunculus argument is that it tries to account for a phenomenon in terms of the very phenomenon that it is supposed to explain.

Could Kellhus, perhaps in a mistaken attempt to "come before his soul", have actually created a scenario in which he is now the homunculus?

It would be a fitting fate for the character, trapped in the World forever (and also invoking Luciferian or Satanic myth wherein Lucifer is cast down to the earth for all time, since he covets dominion over the material world). Just think of the Mandate catechism:

"Though you forfeit your soul, you gain the World."


Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: Francis Buck on September 26, 2018, 07:08:33 pm
no way. Chorae do not destroy a soul and remove it from the game. If they did that would undermine the main metaphysical tension that drives all the factions in the story to go to war over damnation.

We have two inchoroi left, both mages through grafting. The entire purpose of the inchoroi's millennia long campaign through space was to avoid hell.

If they could pick up a chorae and have it incinerate their soul and send them to oblivion instead of hell they would have done it on the spot. They could have skipped all the nonsense with the apocalypses and the no god and just disappeared. No eternity in hell so all good. Maybe they slightly prefer the idea of killing the gods and living forever on Earwa as immortal bio freaks, but that's just a preference. Their guiding purpose is avoiding hell and they'd be happy to die on the spot if it meant avoiding damnation. Or similarly, think of all the failed attempts the nonmen investigated to find oblivion over hell.

I feel like it's the opposite. There's no way Kellhus found the rare treasure of oblivion.


-Either he's full on dead and he's in hell in the outside being munched on by demons.
-Or he's full on dead and he's in the outside munching on demons.
-Or he's not really dead, and he pulled some Daimos bullshit to keep himself on the inside. Maybe in the decapitant like people are saying.

But I always thought the idea that Kellhus cheated and is still in the inside in the decapitant or whatever was super crazy. I definitely thought he was done, at least story wise. He's dead and he's not going to be a driving factor anymore. But that requires him going to hell.

So if Bakker says he's not in the outside, that seems like a big reveal to me. That seems to strongly indicate that it's daimos trickery of some kind.

Agreed on all of this. I had pondered the Chorae possibility before -- wherein, perhaps, no one knew the annihilating effects of chorae -- but it simply lowers the stakes far, far too dramatically.

My thoughts are also identical regarding Kellhus. If he's not in the Outside, he's either in Oblivion or, somehow, still within the World. But having thought on it (since learning he wasn't in the Outside) I don't buy for one second that Kellhus got into Oblivion. Far too easy of a fate for him.

I actually have a thread on this exact topic I'm working on but still haven't finished (it's gargantuan), but one of the things I've considered for quite a while is that when Kellhus went into the Outside and "seized the head on the pole", he indadvertantly fucked up something about the causality of his soul, in such in a manner that he is now forever doomed to live in the World (as some kind of disembodied spirit or something, a wight maybe, or a perhaps a "spirit" akin to Shauriatas).

I've also pondered about how the head on a pole seems to at least have connotations of a "sentience" which resides "behind the head", particularly considering RSB's Blind Brain Theory, invoking his twisted version of "It thinks, therefore I am."

Who/what that "sentient head on the pole" might be I am not sure -- the God of Gods, perhaps...or maybe Seswatha?

I find the latter an especially interesting candidate given that the text actually uses the term "Seswatha Homunculus"...

From wiki:
Quote
The assumption here is that there is a "little man" or "homunculus" inside the brain "looking at" the movie. The reason why this is a fallacy may be understood by asking how the homunculus "sees" the internal movie. The obvious answer is that there is another homunculus inside the first homunculus's "head" or "brain" looking at this "movie". But that raises the question of how this homunculus sees the "outside world". To answer that seems to require positing another homunculus inside this second homunculus's head, and so forth. In other words, a situation of infinite regress is created. The problem with the homunculus argument is that it tries to account for a phenomenon in terms of the very phenomenon that it is supposed to explain.

Could Kellhus, perhaps in a mistaken attempt to "come before his soul", have actually created a scenario in which he is now the homunculus (which so far as we know is in fact trapped in the World)?

It would be a fitting fate for the character, trapped in the World forever (and could be compared to certain Luciferian myth, wherein Lucifer is cast down to the earth for all time, since he covets dominion over the material world). Just think of the Mandate catechism:

"Though you forfeit your soul, you gain the World."

I'm actually more drawn to the idea that Kellhus, rather than find some rest or even damnation in the Outside, instead actually acquires a perverse semblance of immortality, and even becoming the "prime mover of souls", but in turn also succumbs to a fate potentially worse than death from which he has no hope of escape.

"The Logos is without beginning or end."
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: BeardFisher-King on October 01, 2018, 03:15:11 am
I actually have a thread on this exact topic I'm working on but still haven't finished (it's gargantuan), but one of the things I've considered.....
That, sir, is what's known in the broadcasting biz as a "deep tease"! Can't wait!!
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: dragharrow on November 12, 2018, 11:27:49 am
It's a strange thing. Yes, the No-God does something with birth, though we don't know what. But just by being there it doesn't close the world.

Wait I think we do know and I think it does close the world. My assumption was that Mimara's child was the last that will be born until the No God dies (it just slipped through before the No God started). Or much more unlikely, that Mimara's child is a strange exception, and it passed through the gates based on some metaphysical power we are yet to understand.

We do know what the No God does to birth. While it exists it blocks any soul from coming into the world. It is said many times that during the last rise of the No God, every single baby was born stillborn. The "meat" still worked so the baby's body grew in the womb and the mother went into labor. But with the No God active, no new souls could enter the world. So every single baby was born without a soul, therefore, they were stillborn. 

This is talked about a lot. That every baby for... I forget but I think like 8 years... is born stillborn, explicitly because of the No God being active. And there's lots of talk of the No God shutting the gates between the inside and the outside. Cleary for the input the effect is no new babies - what it means for the output is still unclear. When the No God is up I don't know what happens to people who die. Hopefully oblivion I suppose. But since the Inchoroi don't immediately kill themselves when they get the No God going, I think we can safely assume that it isn't oblivion waiting for those who die under its reign.

Sorcery is contingent on the Outside and still works

I don't know that sorcery is contingent on the outside the way souls being born or leaving is. I think sorcerers convince "the ground", not the
gods. Not exactly what the difference is but they aren't identical.

the Gods are able to act and were able in the First Apocalypse, I'm pretty sure Ciphrang can still be summoned

Can they? They are briefly perceived I think but I seem to remember a lot of talk of the Gods being abnormally distant, almost unreachable. And I don't think we have any references to Ciphrang in the first apocalypse

Considering all of this, I don't think it is correct to say that the world is closed in any way.

What about all the references to the No God blocking out the gods. Or being the "bone to choke them". I think he closes the basic soul i/o gate. But to fully close them off forever they need the 144k thing.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: SmilerLoki on November 12, 2018, 01:55:49 pm
Wait I think we do know and I think it does close the world.
It starts that process, yes. It doesn't complete it instantly. Just like you said, the Inchoroi didn't immediately kill themselves the moment the No-God was operational.

We do know what the No God does to birth.
I believe you misunderstood my point. We know the evident effect of the No-God on birth, that was never in question. We don't know how that effect is achieved. Is it purely a Tekne thing? Is it a metaphysical thing? TUC makes a strong case of it being a disruption of the Great Cycle of Souls (whatever that is), but what kind of disruption? Achieved by what means?

This is what I meant by saying we don't know what the No-God does to birth. The point is, we don't know the metaphysical significance of the No-God and its effect, we merely assume the significance exists. The Consult thinks the No-God will help them achieve their goals, but we have no idea how, from their perspective, it's going to do that, not to mention whether they are right to believe so (though so far they seem to be the best at predicting the No-God and its actions).

I don't know that sorcery is contingent on the outside the way souls being born or leaving is. I think sorcerers convince "the ground", not the gods. Not exactly what the difference is but they aren't identical.
I believe sorcery is absolutely contingent on the Outside, because its timeless nature allows what comes after determine what comes before. This ties into the Survivor's revelations. Also, just to be clear, the Gods and the Outside are in no way synonymous. Sorcery has nothing to do with the Gods (unlike Psatma and the White-Luck Warrior's abilities).

And yes, so far the Outside seems to be more than sorcery and the Great Cycle of Souls.

Can they? They are briefly perceived I think but I seem to remember a lot of talk of the Gods being abnormally distant, almost unreachable. And I don't think we have any references to Ciphrang in the first apocalypse

Concerning Ciphrang, I was speculating. But the way I understand things, nothing should prevent them from being summoned.

Concerning the Gods, I can offer, for example, this quote of Bakker's as evidence:
http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=2278.msg36488#msg36488

In essence, the Gods are impaired by their blindness, but they are not immediately rendered powerless by the Resumption. For that, the System must run its course completely, it appears.

I think there was something in the series itself about the Gods hearing their followers fine during the First Apocalypse, but not being able to understand what's happening due to being blind to the No-God (important, specifically the No-God, not the world around it, even when the System is active). Alas, I'm going to be hard-pressed to find it at the moment.

What about all the references to the No God blocking out the gods. Or being the "bone to choke them". I think he closes the basic soul i/o gate. But to fully close them off forever they need the 144k thing.
It's exactly what I meant, the process is started, but not (yet) completed.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: dragharrow on November 13, 2018, 08:24:02 am
Wait I think we do know and I think it does close the world.
It starts that process, yes. It doesn't complete it instantly. Just like you said, the Inchoroi didn't immediately kill themselves the moment the No-God was operational.
We do know what the No God does to birth.
I believe you misunderstood my point. We know the evident effect of the No-God on birth, that was never in question. We don't know how that effect is achieved. Is it purely a Tekne thing? Is it a metaphysical thing? TUC makes a strong case of it being a disruption of the Great Cycle of Souls (whatever that is), but what kind of disruption? Achieved by what means?

You're right, I did misunderstand your point. That is all very fair.

This is what I meant by saying we don't know what the No-God does to birth. The point is, we don't know the metaphysical significance of the No-God and its effect, we merely assume the significance exists. The Consult thinks the No-God will help them achieve their goals, but we have no idea how, from their perspective, it's going to do that, not to mention whether they are right to believe so (though so far they seem to be the best at predicting the No-God and its actions)

I'm in total agreement. As far as I know we don't even have any information as to how the Inchoroi received the prophesies that they base all of this on. Their intergalactic quest that drove them to murder the inhabitants of all of these different planets must have been driven by a prophesy that claimed that doing so could close the cycle and save their souls - meaning they have to have received it long before they found Earwa. They must have gotten it out in the depths of unenchanted space. How, and in what way did that happen?

I wish we had learned more about the metaphysics of the Inverse Flame in the last book. It appears to be an object of the Tekne, one that predates the Inchoroi gaining access to sorcery, yet it interfaces with the outside and hell in some way. I'd love details on the metaphysics of a Tekne artifact that can do that.

I don't know that sorcery is contingent on the outside the way souls being born or leaving is. I think sorcerers convince "the ground", not the gods. Not exactly what the difference is but they aren't identical.
I believe sorcery is absolutely contingent on the Outside, because its timeless nature allows what comes after determine what comes before. This ties into the Survivor's revelations. Also, just to be clear, the Gods and the Outside are in no way synonymous. Sorcery has nothing to do with the Gods (unlike Psatma and the White-Luck Warrior's abilities).

Fair enough, well said.

This is a little off topic but relevant. Do you think that the "specialness" of Earwa predates the not-special rest of the universe? Or is Earwa's strange metaphysical nature secondary? Something strange that happened to a part of an already existing normal planet in a normal universe?

I always kind of assumed that Earwa was the "center" and probably the beginning of this world. And that that's why it's special. It's unique metaphysics a product of it's special role in the universe. Maybe I've failed to really considered the possibility that the metaphysics of Earwa are something created. A change to the status quo.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: SmilerLoki on November 13, 2018, 09:57:39 am
I wish we had learned more about the metaphysics of the Inverse Flame in the last book. It appears to be an object of the Tekne, one that predates the Inchoroi gaining access to sorcery, yet it interfaces with the outside and hell in some way. I'd love details on the metaphysics of a Tekne artifact that can do that.
It's precisely because such a Tekne artifact exists that I think the Progenitors had a theoretical understanding of damnation and the Outside from the Tekne point of view. I don't think it's prophesy, I think it's a scientific theoretical framework supported be experimental work. Since they were able to create the Inverse Fire, which does interface with the Outside, that framework appears to be workable at least to an extent.

This could be completely wrong, though. It's only my understanding up to this point.

This is a little off topic but relevant. Do you think that the "specialness" of Earwa predates the not-special rest of the universe? Or is Earwa's strange metaphysical nature secondary? Something strange that happened to a part of an already existing normal planet in a normal universe?
The way I think about it is centered around the timeless nature of the Outside phenomena. Let's consider the Judging Eye, for example. Mimara has it because at some point she is going to have a stillborn child. It doesn't matter when, be it in the past, present, or future, the result, the Eye, is there for all of her life as far as we know. It's the same with Earwa as a whole: whatever makes it special created a timeless phenomena. Whenever that happened (in the past, present, or future), the result is there always. I also feel Kellhus's "the Inchoroi must win" sentiment is closely related to this line of thinking.

This is also why I think that the fall of the No-God in the First Apocalypse might be closely related to the events of the Second Apocalypse, being also of timeless nature. This is, of course, pure speculation.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: MSJ on November 13, 2018, 06:31:23 pm
Quote from:  SmilerLoki
It's precisely because such a Tekne artifact exists that I think the Progenitors had a theoretical understanding of damnation and the Outside from the Tekne point of view. I don't think it's prophesy, I think it's a scientific theoretical framework supported be experimental work. Since they were able to create the Inverse Fire, which does interface with the Outside, that framework appears to be workable at least to an extent.

There was always the line of thinking that it was just a goad. But, I think Kellhus seeing himself as a hunger, puts that theory to rest.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: H on November 13, 2018, 06:56:45 pm
There was always the line of thinking that it was just a goad. But, I think Kellhus seeing himself as a hunger, puts that theory to rest.

That fact that what it shows you is true doesn't mean it isn't a goad though.  It being The Goad only speaks to the likely fact that while it shows you a truth, that doesn't have to be The Truth.  In other words, it will show almost everyone as Damned, but that doesn't mean no one could be saved.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: SmilerLoki on November 13, 2018, 07:00:18 pm
There was always the line of thinking that it was just a goad. But, I think Kellhus seeing himself as a hunger, puts that theory to rest.
That's why I'm not sure about the aforementioned framework being completely workable. It might be incomplete, with the Inchoroi being just one more experiment. Then the Inverse Fire cannot be seen as conclusive proof of anything.

But I doubt it's going to be relevant.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: H on November 13, 2018, 08:07:59 pm
That's why I'm not sure about the aforementioned framework being completely workable. It might be incomplete, with the Inchoroi being just one more experiment. Then the Inverse Fire cannot be seen as conclusive proof of anything.

But I doubt it's going to be relevant.

It's proof that Damnation is real.  It just doesn't mean that Damnation is certain.  But with the propensity for souled things to want to maintain Identity, it is the Goad, because the only way out of the whole trap is the give up/in.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: MSJ on November 13, 2018, 08:48:52 pm
Quote from:  H
That fact that what it shows you is true doesn't mean it isn't a goad though.  It being The Goad only speaks to the likely fact that while it shows you a truth, that doesn't have to be The Truth.  In other words, it will show almost everyone as Damned, but that doesn't mean no one could be saved.

Right, exactly what we learn through Koringhus. What I was actually meaning, was I never expected for anyone to actually see themselves in the IF.

I thought it purely a goad. A Tekne invention that showed what hell might be like. I was very surprised when Kellhus seen himself. So, I imagine "some" link to the Outside does exist.

Maybe not? Maybe Kellhus seen what he wanted to see. Who knows? His is the only experience we actually get any description of basically. Maybe you see what you want. I do understand your explanation, though.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: SmilerLoki on November 13, 2018, 09:29:38 pm
It's proof that Damnation is real.  It just doesn't mean that Damnation is certain.  But with the propensity for souled things to want to maintain Identity, it is the Goad, because the only way out of the whole trap is the give up/in.
If we consider the Inchoroi themselves an experiment, nothing the Inverse Fire shows is proof of anything, since in that framework it would be designed specifically to show the Inchoroi only what they need to see for the experiment to run its course. Then Kellhus's statement might be seen as confirming this exact point of view since he, not being part of the experiment, saw something different. The others, whose experiences correlated with the Inchoroi's, might fall into the framework of the experiment for a variety of reasons (for example, because of their prolonged interaction with the Inchoroi or being hand-picked by them).

This is why i think it might not be relevant. It's too specific, even convoluted.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: TLEILAXU on November 14, 2018, 01:12:46 am
Of course it's a goad! Because it shows you what the Gods have in store for you in the wonderful afterlife.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: dragharrow on November 14, 2018, 01:37:56 am
It's precisely because such a Tekne artifact exists that I think the Progenitors had a theoretical understanding of damnation and the Outside from the Tekne point of view. I don't think it's prophesy, I think it's a scientific theoretical framework supported be experimental work. Since they were able to create the Inverse Fire, which does interface with the Outside, that framework appears to be workable at least to an extent.

This could be completely wrong, though. It's only my understanding up to this point.

Yeah, I agree that the progenitors of the Inchoroi had to have some knowledge of the existence of damnation and the outside from their Tekne. Otherwise the Inchoroi would not know about it and there would be no reason for their quest.

I still kind of like the idea I tried to sell for how the Inverse Fire worked (before we had seen it) that the Inchoroi were developing some kind of deep freeze suspended animation technology in order to put people under for lengthy space trips. But when frozen the subject was essentially dead, went to hell, and then when they were reconstituted and woke up they got yanked out of hell and back into the inside. I like the idea of a bunch of Inchoroi test subjects waking up screaming about how they just spent eternity in the pit of fire.

I don't think it's prophesy,

The Inchoroi do refer to it as prophesy. The bird synthese says something like: we must observe all the prophesies, even the false ones. I get that that isn't conclusive. Their knowledge could originate from pure science and have become prophesy in its transmission. I'm trying to imagine what that science would have looked like.

The way I think about it is centered around the timeless nature of the Outside phenomena. Let's consider the Judging Eye, for example. Mimara has it because at some point she is going to have a stillborn child. It doesn't matter when, be it in the past, present, or future, the result, the Eye, is there for all of her life as far as we know. It's the same with Earwa as a whole: whatever makes it special created a timeless phenomena. Whenever that happened (in the past, present, or future), the result is there always. I also feel Kellhus's "the Inchoroi must win" sentiment is closely related to this line of thinking.

This is also why I think that the fall of the No-God in the First Apocalypse might be closely related to the events of the Second Apocalypse, being also of timeless nature. This is, of course, pure speculation.

I basically buy all of that in terms of the time element, but I think my question is still something different. I've always assumed that the whole universe hangs on Earwa. Even if it's true that there's some kind of weird time thing going on where - A therefore B, B therefore C, C therefore A - I still think that the genesis and primacy of Earwa is relevant.

It's a little hard to talk about because of the time thing but I guess I've always assumed that the Outside proceeds the Inside. In all senses.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: SmilerLoki on November 14, 2018, 05:30:07 am
The Inchoroi do refer to it as prophesy. The bird synthese says something like: we must observe all the prophesies, even the false ones. I get that that isn't conclusive. Their knowledge could originate from pure science and have become prophesy in its transmission. I'm trying to imagine what that science would have looked like.
I always took it as them encountering prophesy specifically in Earwa, because it's possible there, since the connection to the Outside is stronger. Once encountered, though, the Inchoroi incorporated prophesy into their designs.

It's a little hard to talk about because of the time thing but I guess I've always assumed that the Outside proceeds the Inside. In all senses.
The time element is crucial, because it rejects the notion of primacy altogether. It doesn't exist from the timeless perspective.

I also think there is no precedence of the Outside over the Inside or vice versa, they are part of the same construct and intrinsically reliant on one another. As in there is no one without the other.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: dragharrow on November 14, 2018, 08:10:12 am
The Inchoroi do refer to it as prophesy. The bird synthese says something like: we must observe all the prophesies, even the false ones. I get that that isn't conclusive. Their knowledge could originate from pure science and have become prophesy in its transmission. I'm trying to imagine what that science would have looked like.

I always took it as them encountering prophesy specifically in Earwa, because it's possible there, since the connection to the Outside is stronger. Once encountered, though, the Inchoroi incorporated prophesy into their designs.

Possibly. I'm not sure I buy it. That line seems to reference the existence of at least one prophesy that the Inchoroi care about that we have not even heard of. I kind of think it suggests the existence of numerous prophesy's that the Inchoroi follow and we have never heard of.

It's a little hard to talk about because of the time thing but I guess I've always assumed that the Outside proceeds the Inside. In all senses.
The time element is crucial, because it rejects the notion of primacy altogether. It doesn't exist from the timeless perspective.

No come on, that's not true. I get what you are saying, from an ultimate position, looking on the time stream from a "sideways" position, then yes, it is timeless and primacy doesn't exist.

But there are plenty of things in the second trilogy where we can say more about the time elements than just: well this happened because this, etc. There are areas where you can make comments about the way time has become tangled up. You could draw a time weirdness map of the books and it would not be identical to a standard map of the events depicted. The additional information that would appear in the time weirdness map makes questions like primacy relevant.

I also think there is no precedence of the Outside over the Inside or vice versa, they are part of the same construct and intrinsically reliant on one another. As in there is no one without the other.

So there can't be more than one inside then? I don't think there is but I think there easily could be. I think that's the best way of describing my understanding of the outside being prime. I've always thought of the inside as a just a bubble created by the gods in the outside. A place with rules that allow for a greater "clarity of souls". Created that they might eat our smoke.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: SmilerLoki on November 14, 2018, 03:42:30 pm
Possibly. I'm not sure I buy it. That line seems to reference the existence of at least one prophesy that the Inchoroi care about that we have not even heard of. I kind of think it suggests the existence of numerous prophesy's that the Inchoroi follow and we have never heard of.
Also a possibility. My understanding is in no way confirmed.

There are areas where you can make comments about the way time has become tangled up. You could draw a time weirdness map of the books and it would not be identical to a standard map of the events depicted. The additional information that would appear in the time weirdness map makes questions like primacy relevant.
Not from the metaphysical perspective, no. Since in Earwa powerful agencies are active simultaneously all throughout time, its non-linearity from the point of view of mortals is a given. I believe you refer, at least in part, to the events beyond the scope of the Gods' vision. Like the failure of the first White-Luck Warrior, which in retrospect created Sorweel before said failure. But the moment the change of the eternal transpired, Yatwer always knew her first vessel was going to fail, yet at the same time the vessel already existed, so it has always existed and been part of Yatwer's plan. Nonetheless, since it wasn't sufficient to deal with Kellhus, her plan now included a second vessel. Of course, for her it was always so.

So there can't be more than one inside then?
That depends. Since the context of the Outside is intrinsically connected to the context of the Inside, and the absence of time is the absence of space the way we understand it (speed of traveling is a function of time, so without time there is merely untraversable distance/difference between concepts, if you will), I'm inclined to consider the Outside uniform throughout the universe and the same as it is in Earwa. If there were other Gods, or if the Gods were different for other races, Men would encounter it in their interaction with them, because the Gods are unchanging, eternal. Since we know the Gods only as human Gods (for example, they don't seem to have that high of an opinion about Nonmen), I believe this is their only nature. In essence, that's what makes Earwa special: it shapes the Outside and is in turn shaped by the Outside, thus creating a feedback loop that imposes Earwan rules on the universe.

So, could there be, for example, other dimensions? Sure, but that wouldn't be very relevant for the rules of the story, just like other planets weren't relevant. Earwa is where the shaping happens. That's why the No-God must rise there, among other things.

I've always thought of the inside as a just a bubble created by the gods in the outside.
Now this is a strange notion. The Gods didn't create anything, the God of Gods did, which is a separate entity that we know almost nothing about.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: themerchant on November 14, 2018, 07:37:13 pm
I've always thought that the outside was another dimension that we physically can't turn and walk into. That's why Bakker uses Orthogonal, the outside is everywhere length breadth height and time are like a 5th dimension. The Ciphrang godling in the arc just had the ability to move in that direction and go back to the outside. Also since it's at Orthogonal to time as well that means can see all time as well. If you imagine a 2D creature or an ant on a huge mobius loop, walking for ever. It would look to the ant it was walking in a straight line. but to someone able to perceive 3 dimensions it would actually be walking in a figure of 8 as we could see the whole.

Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: H on November 14, 2018, 07:52:41 pm
I've always thought that the outside was another dimension that we physically can't turn and walk into. That's why Bakker uses Orthogonal, the outside is everywhere length breadth height and time are like a 5th dimension. The Ciphrang godling in the arc just had the ability to move in that direction and go back to the outside. Also since it's at Orthogonal to time as well that means can see all time as well. If you imagine a 2D creature or an ant on a huge mobius loop, walking for ever. It would look to the ant it was walking in a straight line. but to someone able to perceive 3 dimensions it would actually be walking in a figure of 8 as we could see the whole.

I don't think they have to be mutually elusive though.  As in, the Outside can be both an inter-subjective sapce and also "Orthogonal" to physical space.  It doesn't really square up for the Outside to be akin to a physical space to me, but it also shares a number of characteristics similar to a physical space.  I think that kind of paradoxical nature is exactly what Bakker was aiming at.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: SmilerLoki on November 14, 2018, 08:11:50 pm
I've always thought that the outside was another dimension that we physically can't turn and walk into. That's why Bakker uses Orthogonal, the outside is everywhere length breadth height and time are like a 5th dimension. The Ciphrang godling in the arc just had the ability to move in that direction and go back to the outside. Also since it's at Orthogonal to time as well that means can see all time as well. If you imagine a 2D creature or an ant on a huge mobius loop, walking for ever. It would look to the ant it was walking in a straight line. but to someone able to perceive 3 dimensions it would actually be walking in a figure of 8 as we could see the whole.
I feel such a representation fails to capture other properties of time, like, for example, ability to change spatial position, since from our perspective propagation of events is possible (because time exists). Now, let's say it doesn't. From that point of view everything is eternally the same, every action happens simultaneously, every change is already seen as done. It's not even that everything happens concurrently, to be precise, it's like the existence is static, already including everything it can include. The notions of past, present, and future are only relevant when human perspective encounters actions of such timeless agencies. They, on the other hands, see humans differently, as a sum of everything they are, were, will be and do, have done, will do.

In essence, the difference is not in dimensions, it's in frame of reference.

At least this is my current line of thinking.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: H on November 14, 2018, 08:43:25 pm
Well, I think a major portion of why the Outside can't just be "another dimension" is that, if it were, it makes very little sense that it could be "closed off."  I mean, it could be, but I think the whole aim of the 144k, the No-God and the Consult/Progenitor plan is that the "reality" of the Outside can be rewritten, in the right circumstances, when only the proscribed number of survivors are present and in a place where "meaning" is malleable.

I guess we could recapitulate the famous question as: if every Souled thing was dead, is there an Outside?  I think, confusingly enough, the answer is both yes and no.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: SmilerLoki on November 14, 2018, 09:02:31 pm
Well, I think a major portion of why the Outside can't just be "another dimension" is that, if it were, it makes very little sense that it could be "closed off."  I mean, it could be, but I think the whole aim of the 144k, the No-God and the Consult/Progenitor plan is that the "reality" of the Outside can be rewritten, in the right circumstances, when only the proscribed number of survivors are present and in a place where "meaning" is malleable.
That's my take on it as well.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: themerchant on November 15, 2018, 05:49:16 am
When Saubon dies he falls and stops and hell rises up to meet him all indicating to me a direction and movement in that direction. Same with how hell is described within the arc how there is torsion which again implies direction and twisting in some dimension.

This is a good example of what i was trying to say with dimensions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0WjV6MmCyM

Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: SmilerLoki on November 15, 2018, 12:36:50 pm
When Saubon dies he falls and stops and hell rises up to meet him all indicating to me a direction and movement in that direction. Same with how hell is described within the arc how there is torsion which again implies direction and twisting in some dimension.

This is a good example of what i was trying to say with dimensions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0WjV6MmCyM
I understand what you mean, but our minds would see dimensions even if there is none (even in reality), since they are wired that way, or, more specifically, since this framework of understanding is taught in school, which is why it's useful for explaining concepts to readers. But it's not the only way, and a limited one at that. The Outside is a place of souls, which aren't a physical concept. It's more to do with philosophy and the notion of thought than with the concept of physical space.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: H on November 15, 2018, 02:28:47 pm
I understand what you mean, but our minds would see dimensions even if there is none (even in reality), since they are wired that way, or, more specifically, since this framework of understanding is taught in school, which is why it's useful for explaining concepts to readers. But it's not the only way, and a limited one at that. The Outside is a place of souls, which aren't a physical concept. It's more to do with philosophy and the notion of thought than with the concept of physical space.

Well, one issue of trying to conceptualize the Outside as a "dimension" is that it does not map to physical dimensions in any 1:1 way.  In fact, it specifically does not map onto the axis of time or space, because it, at best, would be mapped below these things.  That is to say, it is not a "higher order" but a "lower" one, where time and space are not distinct.  Of course, the paradox seeps in here, where there are analogies of time and space within the Outside, but again, those don't match the same things on the Inside.

Basically, along the lines of the Koringhus Revelations, the Outside is more akin to a singularity than it is to a 4th (or Nth) dimension.  Being a singularity though, of course, paradoxes not only abound, they are part and parcel of it's structure and nature.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: SmilerLoki on November 15, 2018, 02:39:47 pm
Well, one issue of trying to conceptualize the Outside as a "dimension" is that it does not map to physical dimensions in any 1:1 way.  In fact, it specifically does not map onto the axis of time or space, because it, at best, would be mapped below these things.  That is to say, it is not a "higher order" but a "lower" one, where time and space are not distinct.  Of course, the paradox seeps in here, where there are analogies of time and space within the Outside, but again, those don't match the same things on the Inside.

Basically, along the lines of the Koringhus Revelations, the Outside is more akin to a singularity than it is to a 4th (or Nth) dimension.  Being a singularity though, of course, paradoxes not only abound, they are part and parcel of it's structure and nature.
We're on the same page about it, then! It's nice to know I'm not the only one who sees it this way.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: H on November 15, 2018, 03:03:14 pm
We're on the same page about it, then! It's nice to know I'm not the only one who sees it this way.

In the "old days" having been "raised" on reading White Wolf RPG books, I conceived of the Outside as a "Shadowlands" akin to what is in the game system of Wraith: The Oblivion.  That is, a world mapped over the world, separate yet connected, but "mirrored" in a way.  Any notion of that though is really shattered by Koringhus' revelations and by the views we get of it via Kellhus short forays into it.

If we were to consider the entirety of Bakker-verse a sphere (which it specifically is not, but just for the sake of illustrating this idea) then the Outside is what is inside the sphere.  In "reality" there is no "space" there just as there is no sphere.  Of course, this analogy fails to capture numerous things, but it does encapsulate the space-that-is-not-space aspect of that paradoxical nature of the Outside.  The Outside is far more a "place" in the Platonic sense than it is a "physical" one.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: themerchant on November 15, 2018, 03:31:59 pm
When Saubon dies he falls and stops and hell rises up to meet him all indicating to me a direction and movement in that direction. Same with how hell is described within the arc how there is torsion which again implies direction and twisting in some dimension.

This is a good example of what i was trying to say with dimensions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0WjV6MmCyM
I understand what you mean, but our minds would see dimensions even if there is none (even in reality), since they are wired that way, or, more specifically, since this framework of understanding is taught in school, which is why it's useful for explaining concepts to readers. But it's not the only way, and a limited one at that. The Outside is a place of souls, which aren't a physical concept. It's more to do with philosophy and the notion of thought than with the concept of physical space.

Well it's the product of Bakker's mind , the video i posted actually shows we wouldn't see the higher dimensions with our minds, unless in specific circumstances.

Kellhus explains the soul using dimensions as well to Akka, imagine you could get the depth of an ocean "inside" you. Also the 5th dimension would be like looking at time from a singularity. You'd see the heat death of the universe from start to finish. The whole pattern would be laid out.

"Kellhus nodded, his expression at once cryptic and bemused. "Imagine," he said, "that you could take the Great Ocean, in all its immensity, and fold it into the form and proportion of a man. There are depths, Akka, that go in rather than down in without limit. What you call the Outside lies within us, and it's everywhere. This is why, no matter where we stand, it's always here. No matter where we dare tread, we always stand in the same place."
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: SmilerLoki on November 15, 2018, 03:52:56 pm
Well it's the product of Bakker's mind , the video i posted actually shows we wouldn't see the higher dimensions with our minds, unless in specific circumstances.
We'll get an approximation, just like we get an approximation of the world around us right now. The mind needs to cook up its reality, it's what it's there for.

The main problem with the dimensional approach is the fact that time is not a spatial dimension. Minkowski space accounts for it to an extent (here I'm fast reaching the limit of my expertise, unfortunately), but I'm unsure the whole "coordinate system" thing is constructive for the purposes of philosophy. It's certainly constructive for the purposes of calculating a plethora of physical phenomena in existing models, though.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: themerchant on November 15, 2018, 04:22:05 pm
Well it's the product of Bakker's mind , the video i posted actually shows we wouldn't see the higher dimensions with our minds, unless in specific circumstances.
We'll get an approximation, just like we get an approximation of the world around us right now. The mind needs to cook up its reality, it's what it's there for.

The main problem with the dimensional approach is the fact that time is not a spatial dimension. Minkowski space accounts for it to an extent (here I'm fast reaching the limit of my expertise, unfortunately), but I'm unsure the whole "coordinate system" thing is constructive for the purposes of philosophy. It's certainly constructive for the purposes of calculating a plethora of physical phenomena in existing models, though.

I'm not really stating the properties of the dimension, as they are completely arbitrary anyway, it's a way to think of where the outside is in relation to our physical forms. It's 90 degrees in a direction our physical forms can't go. Via magic or death though we can move in those directions. Hence why Kellhus doesn't physically enter the outside. his soul does. His actual body just has it eyes rolled up in his head.

The outside doesn't have to be Euclidean in property.

Although as Robert Penrose said "Space and time are not concepts that can be considered independently of one another"
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: SmilerLoki on November 15, 2018, 04:38:04 pm
I'm not really stating the properties of the dimension, as they are completely arbitrary anyway, it's a way to think of where the outside is in relation to our physical forms. It's 90 degrees in a direction our physical forms can't go. Via magic or death though we can move in those directions. Hence why Kellhus doesn't physically enter the outside. his soul does. His actual body just has it eyes rolled up in his head.
Ah, sorry, that is certainly a valid explanatory device, and I agree with the resulting description.

Although as Robert Penrose said "Space and time are not concepts that can be considered independently of one another"
Oh yes, this is why I very much like this "timeless" thought experiment in TSA.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: themerchant on November 15, 2018, 05:10:54 pm
I'm not really stating the properties of the dimension, as they are completely arbitrary anyway, it's a way to think of where the outside is in relation to our physical forms. It's 90 degrees in a direction our physical forms can't go. Via magic or death though we can move in those directions. Hence why Kellhus doesn't physically enter the outside. his soul does. His actual body just has it eyes rolled up in his head.
Ah, sorry, that is certainly a valid explanatory device, and I agree with the resulting description.

Although as Robert Penrose said "Space and time are not concepts that can be considered independently of one another"
Oh yes, this is why I very much like this "timeless" thought experiment in TSA.

Yeah just stating how i rationalise it in my head. As to where it is. I don't have the philosophical knowledge to add much to it's properties bar parroting lines from the book, which are vague and scarce.

As you stated it's no surprise my brain uses this model as a couple of decades ago i did my undergraduate in physics although i never went on to work in the industry.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: Wilshire on November 28, 2018, 01:22:24 pm
If we were to consider the entirety of Bakker-verse a sphere (which it specifically is not, but just for the sake of illustrating this idea) then the Outside is what is inside the sphere.  In "reality" there is no "space" there just as there is no sphere.  Of course, this analogy fails to capture numerous things, but it does encapsulate the space-that-is-not-space aspect of that paradoxical nature of the Outside.  The Outside is far more a "place" in the Platonic sense than it is a "physical" one.

I'm going to attempt to adopt this way of thinking. My present model was the Outside being ... outside the sphere-that-is-earwa. It being actually being inside is more clever though.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: H on November 28, 2018, 02:21:54 pm
I'm going to attempt to adopt this way of thinking. My present model was the Outside being ... outside the sphere-that-is-earwa. It being actually being inside is more clever though.

Consider Akka's analogy about "madness" being pin-pricks through the "surface" of the world from the Outside.  In that case, the "water" that leaks out is inside that surface, or better yet, consider that it is contained within that "surface."  In reality, the "place" of the Outside is more like a singularity than it is like a plane or sphere, that touches all point on the Inside, while simultaneously not actually having any dimension (only appearing to have some).

It's not really something that makes any sense in Euclidean geometrical terms, except in the sense that Zero, the origin, touches all quadrants of "space" while also not actually being a "space" at all.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: Wilshire on November 28, 2018, 03:12:03 pm
I'm going to attempt to adopt this way of thinking. My present model was the Outside being ... outside the sphere-that-is-earwa. It being actually being inside is more clever though.

Consider Akka's analogy about "madness" being pin-pricks through the "surface" of the world from the Outside.  In that case, the "water" that leaks out is inside that surface, or better yet, consider that it is contained within that "surface."  In reality, the "place" of the Outside is more like a singularity than it is like a plane or sphere, that touches all point on the Inside, while simultaneously not actually having any dimension (only appearing to have some).

It's not really something that makes any sense in Euclidean geometrical terms, except in the sense that Zero, the origin, touches all quadrants of "space" while also not actually being a "space" at all.

I get the limitations, but it seems a useful inversion of the snowglobe-world I was envisioning. Though in that case, too, you could say Akka's analogy works the same if the snowglobe was filled with a gas and the outside a liquid that seeps in through cracks... But the other way is more satisfying somehow.

Though it does cause issues with the pervasiveness of the Outside beyond Earwa. Not sure that squares with me.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: H on November 28, 2018, 03:43:28 pm
I get the limitations, but it seems a useful inversion of the snowglobe-world I was envisioning. Though in that case, too, you could say Akka's analogy works the same if the snowglobe was filled with a gas and the outside a liquid that seeps in through cracks... But the other way is more satisfying somehow.

Though it does cause issues with the pervasiveness of the Outside beyond Earwa. Not sure that squares with me.

Well, one reason why I tend to think of it as "inside" as opposed to "outside" real-space, is that since it has no dimension, it doesn't make much sense that the Outside would then envelop the Inside.  Instead, it makes more sense to me that the Outside, as a space which is not space, that is the absence of space, would be "inside" although that is an arbitrary Euclidean designation that really doesn't mean anything.  It only serves to illustrate that no matter where you are on the Inside, you are equidistant from the Origin, the Zero-Space of the Outside (the whole of the Outside, singularity as it is).
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: Wilshire on November 28, 2018, 03:54:07 pm
Wouldn't The God be the singularity middle, with the 100 some shell around it, Inside being a shell beyond that?

And then, kind of like the optic nerve obscuring your vision, the Outside could have a somewhat fixed blindspot that they didn't know existed.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: SmilerLoki on November 28, 2018, 04:30:02 pm
Wouldn't The God be the singularity middle, with the 100 some shell around it
That does seem to make the most sense as the current inferred structure of the Outside. The Gods are fractions, and between them is the Cubit (the Zero-God).

Now, I reserve my judgment about the God of Gods. Not enough data to make predictions that stand up to any kind of scrutiny.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: H on November 28, 2018, 04:48:40 pm
Wouldn't The God be the singularity middle, with the 100 some shell around it, Inside being a shell beyond that?

And then, kind of like the optic nerve obscuring your vision, the Outside could have a somewhat fixed blindspot that they didn't know existed.

Well, is there really a "middle" of a singularity?  If the space is no-space, then there really isn't a bottom, middle or top.  In the zero-space that is the Outside, I don't think there is any dimensionality except the perceived differentiation that somehow "endures."  So, it's really a "perceptual space" rather than a physical space.  That is, sort of a Platonic Idea Space, rather than an actual Dimensional Space.

So, it's not really nested, I don't think.  The God is everything.  Literally.  The Hundred are just parts of God.  All souls are parts of God.  The whole singularity is God.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: Wilshire on November 28, 2018, 06:44:00 pm
I singularity has an event horizon - but what I meant is that The God would be your singularity no-space, the 100 being not so infinite would be outside of it, in the same manner that the inside is outside the outside...
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: H on November 28, 2018, 07:27:28 pm
I singularity has an event horizon - but what I meant is that The God would be your singularity no-space, the 100 being not so infinite would be outside of it, in the same manner that the inside is outside the outside...

Well, I think this is where the analogy fails quite dramatically.  I use singularity because it is the closest conception I could devise for what a "space" that is "collapsed" would be.  Whatever the Outside is, it likely has no "event horizon" because it has no gravity or anything.  It has no physical substance or physical parallel.  It is likely just an inter-subjective "idea" of "space."  So, it has no event horizon, in the same way that the mathematical concept of a prime number doesn't either.

The Hundred are not infinite, you are right, and an Erwan soul is also not infinite, because they imagine themselves separate from the infinite nature of God.  The Hundred could return to their infinite state, should they relinquish their foolish notion that they are separate from God.  But they don't, which is exactly why they exist.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: Francis Buck on December 20, 2018, 02:32:39 am
I feel relatively confident that the God-of-Gods and the Cubit/Zero-God are the same thing. The only reason I think there's the level of confusion here is because the most in-depth description of the God-of-Gods we get is from Koringhus, a Dunyain, who very explicitly isn't thinking about/framing the God-of-Gods the way a human would, but rather from the perspective of a Dunyain. I think trying to divy up all these interpretations (God, God-of-Gods, Zero-God, the Cubit) into distinct entities is actually part of the "lesson" of Koringhus, and also hits thematically, on the entire concept of Mimara being a vessel for the God. Kellhus actually seems like an example of this -- he states to Proyas/Akka (can't remember which) that the GoG is merely the "witless sum", while also claiming to the Mutilated that he is an Inverse Prophet -- bringing word of Man from the Temporal to the Eternal. Yet it is Mimara who is ACTUALLY doing this (and indeed this dovetails with her belief that she actually is what Kellhus claims to be). 

This also comes down to how I imagine the Gods/Outside and their utilization of a human vessel in the World. I tend to think that trying to envision the Outside as any kind of "dimension" analogous to something in our world may be a bit "overthinking" it, perhaps. The Outside seems like an amalgamation of a Noosphere and theological ideas of the Pleroma.

Specifically on the Gods and their use of Vessels, this to me seems like RSB's implementation of the ambiguity of the Soul or Consciousness which is prominent throughout the series, but finds itself most apparent when we look at Vessels.

Basically, the "Outside" really is just sort of the "Inside" -- that is, inner space, the Noospheric subjective realm, in contrast to the actual Outer Space (the Void) that is literally outside of Earwa. And so when it comes to Vessels -- Psatma, Cnaiur and Kellhus, Mimara, and in a weird way even Kelmomas -- there is no actual difference between the Soul of a Vessel acting is it would, and the Vessel's "possession" (an imprecise term, according to Oinaral, and I think he's right) by a deity.

In other words, a person doesn't become a Vessel for a God because the God just picked that person. Rather, one becomes a Vessel for a God when the nature of their Soul is in unity with agency from the Outside, including their thoughts and feelings (their Desires, which I suspect is the real spiritual weakness of the Dunyain). All of which, again, are elements of what we could call the Inside, or the Inner Space. So, Kellhus and Cnaiur becomes Vessels for Ajokli because the quality of their Souls coincide with the qualities of Ajokli. Same with Psatma and Yatwer, same with Mimara and the God-of-Gods.

This resolves conundrums like "is Mimara actually granting Absolution, or is the God?" The answer to this (or any other similar scenario -- Kellhus and Cnaiur with Ajokli, for example) is that it's literally both at the same time, because they're actually the same thing.

It also applies even down to the No-God and Kelmomas. The No-God doesn't choose Kelmomas to be its Vessel any more or less than the other Gods "choose" their Vessels. The Gods simply manifest in those Souls which coincide with their own, and vice versa.

Lastly, I think the folks theorizing that Inchoroi Progenitors knew of Damnation/the Outside but simply viewed it in scientific rather than spiritual terms are on the right track. The glossary for TUC supports this pretty well, wherein the Inverse Fire is described as something like a Post-Material Interface Device or something (can't remember the exact wording), but to me -- along with the other stuff people have brought up -- pretty clearly implies that the Inchoroi did not view any of the metaphysical aspects of the Universe in a spiritual manner until they actually got to Earwa, where they directly witnessed the way meaning takes precedence over existence in a more extreme capacity than they previously thought (likely the most immediate indicator being the observation of sorcery as used by the Nonmen).
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: H on December 21, 2018, 02:33:45 pm
I feel relatively confident that the God-of-Gods and the Cubit/Zero-God are the same thing. The only reason I think there's the level of confusion here is because the most in-depth description of the God-of-Gods we get is from Koringhus, a Dunyain, who very explicitly isn't thinking about/framing the God-of-Gods the way a human would, but rather from the perspective of a Dunyain. I think trying to divy up all these interpretations (God, God-of-Gods, Zero-God, the Cubit) into distinct entities is actually part of the "lesson" of Koringhus, and also hits thematically, on the entire concept of Mimara being a vessel for the God. Kellhus actually seems like an example of this -- he states to Proyas/Akka (can't remember which) that the GoG is merely the "witless sum", while also claiming to the Mutilated that he is an Inverse Prophet -- bringing word of Man from the Temporal to the Eternal. Yet it is Mimara who is ACTUALLY doing this (and indeed this dovetails with her belief that she actually is what Kellhus claims to be). 

Yes, I think I was sort of getting at this in my other thread, about the nature of souls.  That is, the God-of-gods and the Cubit are the same thing, but essentially, from different "perspectives."  Perhaps perspective is not the right word, but the first the comes to mind.  Rather, they might be, what we could call different conceptual ideas of the same thing.  The same goes for Zero in this context.  Being the God-of-gods is the transcendent "thing" from which transcendent things issue forth.  The Cubit is the self-same "nature" being that all transcendent natures are of the nature of the God-of-gods.  Zero is the Unity concept, in mathematical terms, how you calculate infinity by division.

In other words, a person doesn't become a Vessel for a God because the God just picked that person. Rather, one becomes a Vessel for a God when the nature of their Soul is in unity with agency from the Outside, including their thoughts and feelings (their Desires, which I suspect is the real spiritual weakness of the Dunyain). All of which, again, are elements of what we could call the Inside, or the Inner Space. So, Kellhus and Cnaiur becomes Vessels for Ajokli because the quality of their Souls coincide with the qualities of Ajokli. Same with Psatma and Yatwer, same with Mimara and the God-of-Gods.

This resolves conundrums like "is Mimara actually granting Absolution, or is the God?" The answer to this (or any other similar scenario -- Kellhus and Cnaiur with Ajokli, for example) is that it's literally both at the same time, because they're actually the same thing.

Right, this is why I equate Mimara with Christ, in my mind.  Because it's the same sort of dual-nature and I don't think that it could have been done "accidentally" by Bakker.

As for the "spiritual weakness" of the Dunyain, I think it runs even deeper.  Because the problem of the Logos is that is cannot ever approach Zero, because it is running directly in the opposite direction.  How do you "calculate infinity?"  The Logos presents the idea of acquisition, addition.  More knowledge, more power, growing the Self to incorporate more of the world. This is not possible, because the Infinite God is divided Infinitely, so no addition of fractions can practically achieve the whole.  Koringhus, on the other hand, through loss, calculates the Infinite God exactly by division, (The Self)/0.

The rest of the Dunyain can never take this step, because the Logos is patterned directly against loss, especially the loss of the Self, because losing the Self would mean losing the Logos, and a la Decartes' sort of reasoning, that is all there is.  Recall from where the word Logos comes to us, in the real world: "En arkhi n ho lgos, ka ho lgos n prs tn then, ka thes n ho lgos." (In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.)  So, the Word(s) are the God to the Dunyain.  To lose the intellect, that is The Mind, they would lose themselves and then what?

Koringhus realizes the "sideways step" that is the way out of that trap, that is, Zero, the Unity.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: SmilerLoki on December 21, 2018, 03:20:15 pm
Zero is the Unity concept, in mathematical terms, how you calculate infinity by division.
The problem with this line of thinking is that it is factually incorrect. You don't mathematically or logically (on this level it is the same thing) calculate infinity by dividing by zero.

Division by zero is not infinity, it is undefined. To understand this we should remember that division is defined (axiomatically) as the inverse operation to multiplication. The properties of multiplication include multiplying by zero, which always equals zero whatever the other factor is. So, when we try to divide by zero, we simply cannot do this for any other number than zero, because multiplication by zero always produces zero and division is the inverse operation to multiplication by definition, which means it cannot be applied in a way that contradicts the properties of multiplication. When we divide zero by zero, the answer is likewise undefined, because any number multiplied by zero produces zero, so we cannot know what the other factor might have been.

This is why the whole Zero thing reads strange to me, and mostly makes me think Bakker just doesn't understand math well enough.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: H on December 21, 2018, 03:40:44 pm
This is why the whole Zero thing reads strange to me, and mostly makes me think Bakker just doesn't understand math well enough.

Well, yes, but we are talking about the math of souls, which is like "real world" math, but it isn't actually real math at all.

So, while division by zero in "real math" is not an actual question that division can answer (and so, is undefined), the answer to the metaphysical question of how many Zeros are in One is probably Infinity.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: SmilerLoki on December 21, 2018, 03:53:33 pm
So, while division by zero in "real math" is not an actual question that division can answer (and so, is undefined), the answer to the metaphysical question of how many Zeros are in One is probably Infinity.
Um, no. It's one of the logical ways to understand division by zero, actually. It goes something like this. If you divide something by an extremely large number, you get a very small number. If you divide the same something by a smaller number, you get a bigger result than the one of the first division. If you divide something by one, you get that exact something. If you divide something by a number smaller than one, the result would be bigger than the initial something. The closer the divisor gets to zero, the bigger the quotient will become. It follows, then, that if the divisor is zero, the quotient becomes infinity.

This explanation is absolutely logical, was tried in real math, and discarded because of the contradiction I outlined in my previous post. While logical, it contradicts the definitions of the operations it involves.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: H on December 21, 2018, 04:01:39 pm
This explanation is absolutely logical, was tried in real math, and discarded because of the contradiction I outlined in my previous post. While logical, it contradicts the definitions of the operations it involves.

Right, division doesn't include a provision for an "answer" to division by zero.  Again, what we are answering is a metaphysical question, via terms that are somewhat mathematical.  Sure, my use of the word calculate is incorrect, but we are bath saying the same thing in reality.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: SmilerLoki on December 21, 2018, 04:05:04 pm
Right, division doesn't include a provision for an "answer" to division by zero.  Again, what we are answering is a metaphysical question, via terms that are somewhat mathematical.  Sure, my use of the word calculate is incorrect, but we are bath saying the same thing in reality.
Also not really. We still need to define our terms, if we aren't using the established mathematical ones. This is where we should start, then, before making any conclusions. So, when you say "division" and "zero", what exactly do you mean?
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: H on December 21, 2018, 04:25:44 pm
Also not really. We still need to define our terms, if we aren't using the established mathematical ones. This is where we should start, then, before making any conclusions. So, when you say "division" and "zero", what exactly do you mean?

If a soul and the gods are parts of The God-of-gods, then I "define" them as "divisions" of the God-of-gods.  The "trouble" here, is that metaphysically (and practically) you can't really divide infinity at all.  So, the "parts" of the infinite God are in turn infinite.

What Koringhus is actually presenting is really not division in the strict mathematical sense, but rather, a way to try to understand the "infinite nature" of the transcendental.  "Zero" is the "placeholder" for the idea of Infinite through no differentiation.

So, I guess it could be said that what Koringhus is presenting, would be the metaphysical idea that the Infinite God is comprised of the Infinite parts of It's Infinite nature.  What each part "imagines" though is that they are distinct parts, what Koringhus proposes, is that this is an illusion that Damns.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: SmilerLoki on December 21, 2018, 04:35:42 pm
If a soul and the gods are parts of The God-of-gods, then I "define" them as "divisions" of the God-of-gods.  The "trouble" here, is that metaphysically (and practically) you can't really divide infinity at all.  So, the "parts" of the infinite God are in turn infinite.

What Koringhus is actually presenting is really not division in the strict mathematical sense, but rather, a way to try to understand the "infinite nature" of the transcendental.  "Zero" is the "placeholder" for the idea of Infinite through no differentiation.

So, I guess it could be said that what Koringhus is presenting, would be the metaphysical idea that the Infinite God is comprised of the Infinite parts of It's Infinite nature.  What each part "imagines" though is that they are distinct parts, what Koringhus proposes, is that this is an illusion that Damns.
A concise way to put it, and close to my understanding. But it has just so. Many. Contradictions. First of all, the parts are demonstrably not infinite, at least not in any fashion that we can measure. But if they were, why would they think themselves finite? Why would it be framed as sin, not to mention matter at all? What of the differences between the parts, since Men are clearly not equal to the Gods?

And the main question is, how does infinity create an illusion of finiteness? I'm not at all sure this one can actually be reconciled, since it combines two directly opposing elements into one.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: H on December 21, 2018, 04:48:06 pm
A concise way to put it, and close to my understanding. But it has just so. Many. Contradictions. First of all, the parts are demonstrably not infinite, at least not in any fashion that we can measure. But if they were, why would they think themselves finite? Why would it be framed as sin, not to mention matter at all? What of the differences between the parts, since Men are clearly not equal to the Gods?

And the main question is, how does infinity create an illusion of finiteness? I'm not at all sure this one can actually be reconciled, since it combines two directly opposing elements into one.

Well, yes, it's all a paradox.  Even a paradox of paradoxes.  Bakker doesn't set out to resolve them, I don't think, he even adds to them.

We actually don't know the nature of a soul in Erwa, so we don't know that the parts are finite, really.  See my thread in the General section, for example.  Why do they think themselves finite though?  Well, perspective, I think is the only answer I can come up with.  Limited perspective and the temporal nature of experience.

I think that Sin is just generally what happens when the "soul" cannot rejoin whatever the "natural state" (a near meaningless statement, but there it is) of the Infinite God.  It gets tossed around, used and abused by the other "souls" (gods and ciphrang).

The question of how is an ever bigger Pandora's box of paradox that I'm not sure I can answer at the moment.  I'd think it has to do with the finite nature of the Body, over the infinite nature of the "soul" though.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: SmilerLoki on December 21, 2018, 04:52:06 pm
Well, perspective, I think is the only answer I can come up with.  Limited perspective and the temporal nature of experience.
I don't see this being reconciled with their supposed infinite nature.

It gets tossed around, used and abused by the other "souls" (gods and ciphrang).
Who don't get abused themselves, at least not that we know of, which looks like a contradiction.

I'd think it has to do with the finite nature of the Body, over the infinite nature of the "soul" though.
And again I don't think infinity and finiteness can exist in the same entity.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: H on December 21, 2018, 05:04:09 pm
Well, I think that the only real answer to all of that is, "paradox."

This is why, in the other thread (and in some real-life things like Gnosticism) there is the "need" for a three part "solution."  That being, the Body, the Mind and the Spirit.  That helps to resolve some of the tension between parts, but indeed, paradox still abounds.  I don't there is a fully logical way to solve it, honestly.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: SmilerLoki on December 21, 2018, 05:37:29 pm
Well, I think that the only real answer to all of that is, "paradox."

This is why, in the other thread (and in some real-life things like Gnosticism) there is the "need" for a three part "solution."  That being, the Body, the Mind and the Spirit.  That helps to resolve some of the tension between parts, but indeed, paradox still abounds.  I don't there is a fully logical way to solve it, honestly.
Probably not, not fully. But there might by a way of furthering our understanding of those concepts still. As of right now I'm not sure of how it should be formulated, though. It might be that the problems we see are artifacts of our preconceptions about reality.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: TaoHorror on December 22, 2018, 12:07:19 am
"Zero" is the "placeholder" for the idea of Infinite through no differentiation.

So "Zero" more as a place or state than a value. By reaching, learning, becoming more, chasing the infinite, we are distancing ourselves from the Cubit thereby making it more likely we'll be damned ( unable to "find" our way back ).
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: TLEILAXU on December 22, 2018, 01:35:20 am
Personally I feel Bakker just thought Zero-God sounded cool.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: TaoHorror on December 22, 2018, 02:58:17 am
Personally I feel Bakker just thought Zero-God sounded cool.

For a long time I thought most of the stuff I was reading was just some very cool shit  :D

Before joining this community, I thought having the Mark/being too smart making you damned was R's commentary/criticism of modern day devotees having to dumb themselves down to adhere to their faith, a sarcastic nod to only the ignorant could be saved as it requires, intentional or not, refuting truths to make it work.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: H on December 26, 2018, 01:56:37 pm
"Zero" is the "placeholder" for the idea of Infinite through no differentiation.

So "Zero" more as a place or state than a value. By reaching, learning, becoming more, chasing the infinite, we are distancing ourselves from the Cubit thereby making it more likely we'll be damned ( unable to "find" our way back ).

Something along those lines.  Recall that Koringhus uses the term "Zero" because he expressly "distrusts" Akka's definition: God.  That is, Koringhus distrusts the idea of the "personality" of God and trusts more an abstract concept.  In a way, this is a "more" true representation of God, even if the actual mathematical aspect fails basic math.

The biggest "aim" of it is to highlight that to take your "place" in the scheme of the infinite is not a process of gain, as the Logos would have it, rather is the hallmark of loss.  Of course, this is spiced with the realization that there is no "you" and that individuality is part of what needs to be abandoned.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: TaoHorror on December 26, 2018, 03:37:51 pm
"Zero" is the "placeholder" for the idea of Infinite through no differentiation.

So "Zero" more as a place or state than a value. By reaching, learning, becoming more, chasing the infinite, we are distancing ourselves from the Cubit thereby making it more likely we'll be damned ( unable to "find" our way back ).

Something along those lines.  Recall that Koringhus uses the term "Zero" because he expressly "distrusts" Akka's definition: God.  That is, Koringhus distrusts the idea of the "personality" of God and trusts more an abstract concept.  In a way, this is a "more" true representation of God, even if the actual mathematical aspect fails basic math.

The biggest "aim" of it is to highlight that to take your "place" in the scheme of the infinite is not a process of gain, as the Logos would have it, rather is the hallmark of loss.  Of course, this is spiced with the realization that there is no "you" and that individuality is part of what needs to be abandoned.

Still confused with "loss" - I think I've interpreted that incorrectly as loss being suffering/pain/actually losing something/someone and/or loss of love or loved ones. The context with which loss is discussed here makes me think it's something else, like loss of identity or consciousness?
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: H on December 26, 2018, 10:59:44 pm
Still confused with "loss" - I think I've interpreted that incorrectly as loss being suffering/pain/actually losing something/someone and/or loss of love or loved ones. The context with which loss is discussed here makes me think it's something else, like loss of identity or consciousness?

Well, loss is just what I imagine to be a major part of the role of the Logos.  That is, the Logos is something that "positively" "builds."  So, forging your identity is something of a loss.  Even though, if you imagine it differently, it's could actually be considered a "return."  So, it depends on how you want to frame the approaching an Infinite God.  Since Koringhus is pretty intent on refuting the Logos and the path of the Logos, I'd tend to frame it as a "loss," that is a "negation" of the "positive," or perhaps more accurately, the synthetically generative role of The Mind, Reason or Logos.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: Wilshire on January 09, 2019, 04:03:52 pm
"Zero" is the "placeholder" for the idea of Infinite through no differentiation.

So "Zero" more as a place or state than a value. By reaching, learning, becoming more, chasing the infinite, we are distancing ourselves from the Cubit thereby making it more likely we'll be damned ( unable to "find" our way back ).

Something along those lines.  Recall that Koringhus uses the term "Zero" because he expressly "distrusts" Akka's definition: God.  That is, Koringhus distrusts the idea of the "personality" of God and trusts more an abstract concept.  In a way, this is a "more" true representation of God, even if the actual mathematical aspect fails basic math.

The biggest "aim" of it is to highlight that to take your "place" in the scheme of the infinite is not a process of gain, as the Logos would have it, rather is the hallmark of loss.  Of course, this is spiced with the realization that there is no "you" and that individuality is part of what needs to be abandoned.

Curiously the opposite of traditional religious concepts - where suicide leads irrevocable damnation. In this case, seemingly according to Koringhus, it might be the only way to avoid damnation.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: TaoHorror on January 09, 2019, 04:16:44 pm
"Zero" is the "placeholder" for the idea of Infinite through no differentiation.

So "Zero" more as a place or state than a value. By reaching, learning, becoming more, chasing the infinite, we are distancing ourselves from the Cubit thereby making it more likely we'll be damned ( unable to "find" our way back ).

Something along those lines.  Recall that Koringhus uses the term "Zero" because he expressly "distrusts" Akka's definition: God.  That is, Koringhus distrusts the idea of the "personality" of God and trusts more an abstract concept.  In a way, this is a "more" true representation of God, even if the actual mathematical aspect fails basic math.

The biggest "aim" of it is to highlight that to take your "place" in the scheme of the infinite is not a process of gain, as the Logos would have it, rather is the hallmark of loss.  Of course, this is spiced with the realization that there is no "you" and that individuality is part of what needs to be abandoned.

Curiously the opposite of traditional religious concepts - where suicide leads irrevocable damnation. In this case, seemingly according to Koringhus, it might be the only way to avoid damnation.

Well, it is the fast track back home given this cubit stuff.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: Simas Polchias on February 27, 2019, 01:51:05 pm
Logistically, that's now a hanging prison attached to a salt statue right at the top of the world's most unassailable fortress and in the hands of the Consult.

Is not that somehow similar to a situation in which the mutilated started? Prisoners of the Consult, neck-deep in the enemy's territory and plans. If Kellhus would hi-jack the body of a random skinspy or even one of the mutilated, that is where his magnificent bastard villain anti-hero hero card will play in it's full strength. The plan A is to crush the inhabitants of the Arc with sheer power of sorceror schools. The plan B is to ruin them from within when they finially considered themselves victors.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: Wilshire on February 27, 2019, 04:04:52 pm
Logistically, that's now a hanging prison attached to a salt statue right at the top of the world's most unassailable fortress and in the hands of the Consult.

Is not that somehow similar to a situation in which the mutilated started? Prisoners of the Consult, neck-deep in the enemy's territory and plans. If Kellhus would hi-jack the body of a random skinspy or even one of the mutilated, that is where his magnificent bastard villain anti-hero hero card will play in it's full strength. The plan A is to crush the inhabitants of the Arc with sheer power of sorceror schools. The plan B is to ruin them from within when they finially considered themselves victors.
That does seem to be the way things lean towards.

Besides, the Dunyain seem to struggle with non-logical paths, and specifically Madness and Hatred. They also suffer from an over abundance of confidence and an inability to see flaws in their plans. Also also the inherent instability of a massive amount of assumptions based on increasingly finer and finer statistical models utilizing smaller and smaller groups...

All combined to indicate that some totally bonkers suicide-resurrection thing with low low likelihood of succeeding would be exactly the type of thing a traditional cadre of dunyain would fall victim too. Its just like Moe Sr. writ large, misunderstanding Kellhus'  Madness.

The question really is whether or not Kellhus was able to circumnavigate the influence of Ajokli and the other hundred.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: TLEILAXU on February 27, 2019, 04:11:25 pm
Logistically, that's now a hanging prison attached to a salt statue right at the top of the world's most unassailable fortress and in the hands of the Consult.

Is not that somehow similar to a situation in which the mutilated started? Prisoners of the Consult, neck-deep in the enemy's territory and plans. If Kellhus would hi-jack the body of a random skinspy or even one of the mutilated, that is where his magnificent bastard villain anti-hero hero card will play in it's full strength. The plan A is to crush the inhabitants of the Arc with sheer power of sorceror schools. The plan B is to ruin them from within when they finially considered themselves victors.
That does seem to be the way things lean towards.

Besides, the Dunyain seem to struggle with non-logical paths, and specifically Madness and Hatred. They also suffer from an over abundance of confidence and an inability to see flaws in their plans. Also also the inherent instability of a massive amount of assumptions based on increasingly finer and finer statistical models utilizing smaller and smaller groups...

All combined to indicate that some totally bonkers suicide-resurrection thing with low low likelihood of succeeding would be exactly the type of thing a traditional cadre of dunyain would fall victim too. Its just like Moe Sr. writ large, misunderstanding Kellhus'  Madness.

The question really is whether or not Kellhus was able to circumnavigate the influence of Ajokli and the other hundred.
Bros... Kellhus is dead. He failed. Ajokli failed. He might've been a prodigy among Dnyain but there are FOUR of them left ruling the Consult. It's not going to happen.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: H on February 27, 2019, 04:32:15 pm
I don't think the "point" of Kellhus' failure is that he comes back to life or anything.  But Bakker's "dead not done" statement likely means that he will still be influential on events even from a discorporate Outside state.

He might well be King of the Ciphrang and I don't think it's clear how that would work out.  He might even be a Ciphrang capable of still preforming Sorcery or something.  Who knows.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: Wilshire on February 27, 2019, 05:17:10 pm
Well Bakker's comments are always of dubious usefulness, if not outright misleading (intentionally or unintentionally). Still fun to speculate.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: H on February 27, 2019, 05:46:20 pm
Well Bakker's comments are always of dubious usefulness, if not outright misleading (intentionally or unintentionally). Still fun to speculate.

Right, I mean, I just take it as a very basic level meaning of, "Kellhus will still be a factor in the story."

That could be anything from just people remembering him, to things he had already in motion playing out, to literal resurrection.

Given that I am biased and don't think Kellhus is the series' "Christ-figure" I stop short of buying the resurrection angle though.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: Francis Buck on March 13, 2019, 12:29:45 am
I think the role of Kellhus going forward will be minimal in quantity, but profound in consequence. By the time of TUC, Kellhus possesses such power and knowledge of the World that literally the only thing that can stop him is literally the No-God (and in my view Ajokli was just as blindsided as Kellhus, though IMO when mortals become the Vessel for a God it's not that the deity is really even "overtaking" the mortal per se, but that the mortal's intent is in unison with deity in question). 

And the phrase "Dead but no done" is something I can't help but take rather seriously in a series where death is not, in fact, the end. This is bolstered even further by the confirmation that Kellhus ISN'T in the Outside, since the only option is that he now remains in the World somehow (we can rule out Oblivion for the moment, since then Kellhus would be well and truly "done").
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: TaoHorror on March 13, 2019, 01:26:22 am
I think the role of Kellhus going forward will be minimal in quantity, but profound in consequence. By the time of TUC, Kellhus possesses such power and knowledge of the World that literally the only thing that can stop him is literally the No-God (and in my view Ajokli was just as blindsided as Kellhus, though IMO when mortals become the Vessel for a God it's not that the deity is really even "overtaking" the mortal per se, but that the mortal's intent is in unison with deity in question). 

And the phrase "Dead but no done" is something I can't help but take rather seriously in a series where death is not, in fact, the end. This is bolstered even further by the confirmation that Kellhus ISN'T in the Outside, since the only option is that he now remains in the World somehow (we can rule out Oblivion for the moment, since then Kellhus would be well and truly "done").

It's possible his "not done" refers to his TTT/plans, but I agree, he's somewhere ( I thought he went into a decapitant after I finished reading it, before discussing here in TSA, but that idea I think has been vetted against - been awhile since our last discussion this, memory is hazy ).
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: Francis Buck's Crush on March 13, 2019, 06:36:30 am
^ Bakker said that the TTT has " run it's course".
https://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/6r3hba/unholy_consultation_r_scott_bakker_bares_the_soul/dl2tau4/
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: MisterGuyMan on March 18, 2019, 05:41:44 pm
^ Bakker said that the TTT has " run it's course".
https://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/6r3hba/unholy_consultation_r_scott_bakker_bares_the_soul/dl2tau4/
Just wanted to add my take on this.  TTT as originally envisioned by Moe had the Great Ordeal encountering setback after setback and would eventually meet with disaster.  So from a broad perspective, Kell's handling of TGO is still on track.  That's why I think TTT wasn't ever overturned.  Kell might have brought it further but the actual plan still went through to completion. 

I also cite the unnamed entity again.  To fight the God one must raze the fields.  So TTT is also on the same path as the entity's war with the God.

Anyway what do people have to say about this very early quote from Baker?
But it was the innocence part, that struck me as the most significant and the most
redemptive. Without giving too much away, there is a manner in which Serwe is the most
important character in the book.

Unless Serwe does something else in the next series or is representative of some meta Outside shenanigans, I don't see how she can in any way be the most important character.  So I'm making a leap here and saying her outright faith in Kell is somehow important.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: Wilshire on March 18, 2019, 06:15:34 pm
I think you've misinterpreted Moe's TTT. I don't think we ever found out Moe's ultimate goal/predictions specifically, but IIRC he largely couldn't predict much of anything past the Circumfixtion, but essentially knew without Kell he'd fail, so hoped Kell would make it alive to him, unite humanity under one religion (the specific one was irrelevant) then rise up to challenge the Consult before it was too late.

Kellhus' "takeover" of the Thought was basically removing Moe from the plan and re-formulating it with this own flare. In specifics it might have been different but in generalities it was mostly the same. The Thought was constructed

Generally speaking, I think most of everything Bakker has ever said is either purposefully misleading (recent stuff in the last few years), or unaware of the specifics (older info from way back) which is now irrelevant or largely misleading. Regarding Serwe, whatever she was supposed to be, I think it was intended to be very clear by now. Thus, I think Serwe's whole thing was being the sympathetic catalyst which ends up uniting all of humanity against the consult. Yes, that's mundane and uninteresting, but I think that's all there is too it - things aren't always as complicated as we make them out to be.

Keep in mind his Serwe comments were largely as a rebuttal to the online stuff happening surrounding him at the time. I think Bakker has shown time and again a pretty extreme misunderstanding of the people he's talking to or trying to reach out too, and most probably (imo) the serwe comment was worded very poorly to begin with and is now taken out of context in the Earwa online noosphere.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: Rots on April 12, 2019, 07:14:17 pm
@Wilshire - i agree w/your comments re: Bakker. At this point i find him to be an intentionally undependable narrator of his own story in a lot of ways. Im sure he would tell me that my loss of faith in him would be his goal and that i am now better off.

Ill buy whatever, if anything, comes next but im much more neutral towards the author and thus the work.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: BeardFisher-King on April 12, 2019, 08:49:59 pm
@Wilshire - i agree w/your comments re: Bakker. At this point i find him to be an intentionally undependable narrator of his own story in a lot of ways. Im sure he would tell me that my loss of faith in him would be his goal and that i am now better off.

Ill buy whatever, if anything, comes next but im much more neutral towards the author and thus the work.
This really resonates with me, Rots. Similarly, I no longer completely trust Bakker as a story-teller, and, as you note, that's probably the position in which he wants to place his readers. It's a very modern, or perhaps even a modernist approach to fiction.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: Madness on April 13, 2019, 12:16:46 pm
Generally speaking, I think most of everything Bakker has ever said is either purposefully misleading (recent stuff in the last few years), or unaware of the specifics (older info from way back) which is now irrelevant or largely misleading. Regarding Serwe, whatever she was supposed to be, I think it was intended to be very clear by now. Thus, I think Serwe's whole thing was being the sympathetic catalyst which ends up uniting all of humanity against the consult. Yes, that's mundane and uninteresting, but I think that's all there is too it - things aren't always as complicated as we make them out to be.

Keep in mind his Serwe comments were largely as a rebuttal to the online stuff happening surrounding him at the time. I think Bakker has shown time and again a pretty extreme misunderstanding of the people he's talking to or trying to reach out too, and most probably (imo) the serwe comment was worded very poorly to begin with and is now taken out of context in the Earwa online noosphere.

Cue FB's Earwa's Original Sin commentary. Though, I personally think "something something pure ignorance" is more her narrative antecedent and I've always liked that "the reader has Serwe in their hands and Kellhus in their heads" (badly paraphrased) quote, as per those aforementioned out of text contemporary commentaries.

@Wilshire - i agree w/your comments re: Bakker. At this point i find him to be an intentionally undependable narrator of his own story in a lot of ways. Im sure he would tell me that my loss of faith in him would be his goal and that i am now better off.

Ill buy whatever, if anything, comes next but im much more neutral towards the author and thus the work.

Nice to see you around again, Rots. It would be nice to communicate in The Agora sometime, given my lack of time to post in the past two years :( (though, I'm working on it).

@Wilshire - i agree w/your comments re: Bakker. At this point i find him to be an intentionally undependable narrator of his own story in a lot of ways. Im sure he would tell me that my loss of faith in him would be his goal and that i am now better off.

Ill buy whatever, if anything, comes next but im much more neutral towards the author and thus the work.
This really resonates with me, Rots. Similarly, I no longer completely trust Bakker as a story-teller, and, as you note, that's probably the position in which he wants to place his readers. It's a very modern, or perhaps even a modernist approach to fiction.

He claims to have avoided the postmodernist pitfalls a la Gene Wolfe, BFK, but I'm never sure.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: Francis Buck on April 15, 2019, 04:25:29 pm
He claims to have avoided the postmodernist pitfalls a la Gene Wolfe, BFK, but I'm never sure.

The Wolfe only prepares those pitfalls, it is the reader who stumbles!

It is the reader who stumbles.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: Wilshire on April 15, 2019, 04:39:29 pm
He claims to have avoided the postmodernist pitfalls a la Gene Wolfe, BFK, but I'm never sure.

The Wolfe only prepares those pitfalls, it is the reader who stumbles!

It is the reader who stumbles.

Well I find Wolfe unreadable. Not sure if that says anything about either though.
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: H on April 16, 2019, 07:36:40 pm
He claims to have avoided the postmodernist pitfalls a la Gene Wolfe, BFK, but I'm never sure.

The Wolfe only prepares those pitfalls, it is the reader who stumbles!

It is the reader who stumbles.

What is the supposed this supposed "post-Modern pitfall" that Wolfe allegedly falls into? 

Genuinely wondering,
Anonymous Armchair Philosopher
Title: Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
Post by: Wilshire on April 18, 2019, 03:00:42 pm
RIP Gene Wolfe btw, he died this week. :(