The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => General Earwa => Topic started by: Old Gnostic Fool on March 21, 2018, 12:17:38 am

Title: POV's in TGO/TUC
Post by: Old Gnostic Fool on March 21, 2018, 12:17:38 am
I noticed that the PON wiki doesn't have them up on it's page so I'd like to confirm them. I've already read the books, but I just want to make sure I didn't miss anything and maybe even add them to the Wiki in the future.

TGO:

Achamian
Mimara
Korringhus
Sorweel
Serwa
Proyas
Saubon
Kellhus
Esmenet
Kelmomas
Malowebi
Issiral (White Luck Warrior)

TUC:

Achamian
Mimara
Esmenet
Kelmomas
Sorweel
Proyas
Moenghus
Malowebi/Ciphrang
Serwa
Kalakiol (another Ciphrang)
Aurang
Cnaiur? (was that his POV at the end)
Sacarees? (Did we get his POV during the battle?)


Am I'm missing anything? I hope this topic is in the right forum as the books have been out for quite a while now.
Title: Re: POV's in TGO/TUC
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on March 21, 2018, 12:47:08 am
I think the Boy has one or two sections from his POV at the end of TGO. Otherwise, it seems right to me. :)

Feel free to add them to the wiki whenever you want to, it definitely needs more work and all help is appreciated. ;)
Title: Re: POV's in TGO/TUC
Post by: TLEILAXU on March 21, 2018, 01:28:07 am
Doesn't Psatma Nannaferi have some povs in TGO too? Or am I misremembering?
Title: Re: POV's in TGO/TUC
Post by: Old Gnostic Fool on March 21, 2018, 01:45:16 am
Doesn't Psatma Nannaferi have some povs in TGO too? Or am I misremembering?

I don't think so. She had a few in TJE and one in TWLW, but that's about it.
Title: Re: POV's in TGO/TUC
Post by: Old Gnostic Fool on March 21, 2018, 01:46:43 am
I think the Boy has one or two sections from his POV at the end of TGO. Otherwise, it seems right to me. :)

Feel free to add them to the wiki whenever you want to, it definitely needs more work and all help is appreciated. ;)

I don't remember the Boy having a POV in TGO. I always thought it was Korringhus the whole way through, but I could be misremembering.
Title: Re: POV's in TGO/TUC
Post by: TLEILAXU on March 21, 2018, 01:56:11 am
I think the Boy has one or two sections from his POV at the end of TGO. Otherwise, it seems right to me. :)

Feel free to add them to the wiki whenever you want to, it definitely needs more work and all help is appreciated. ;)

I don't remember the Boy having a POV in TGO. I always thought it was Korringhus the whole way through, but I could be misremembering.
There's one when he's escaping from the Scylvendi and the thing impersonating SerwŽ.
Title: Re: POV's in TGO/TUC
Post by: Old Gnostic Fool on March 21, 2018, 09:52:35 pm
Is that in the TGO?
Title: Re: POV's in TGO/TUC
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on March 21, 2018, 09:56:35 pm
I don't remember the Boy having a POV in TGO. I always thought it was Korringhus the whole way through, but I could be misremembering.
There's one when he's escaping from the Scylvendi and the thing impersonating SerwŽ.

That's the one. :)


Is that in the TGO?

Yes, close to the end.

I remembered something else, in TUC there is also at least one section (though I think it's only the one) from the point of view of Mirshoa, the young Ainoni who first finds Skuthula.
Title: Re: POV's in TGO/TUC
Post by: Old Gnostic Fool on March 21, 2018, 10:20:49 pm
I don't remember the Boy having a POV in TGO. I always thought it was Korringhus the whole way through, but I could be misremembering.
There's one when he's escaping from the Scylvendi and the thing impersonating SerwŽ.

That's the one. :)


Is that in the TGO?

Yes, close to the end.

I remembered something else, in TUC there is also at least one section (though I think it's only the one) from the point of view of Mirshoa, the young Ainoni who first finds Skuthula.

I completely missed that. Finding out the minor POV's is always a blast. PON was awash in them, but I feel like they are mostly non-existent in AE, with some exceptions in the final volume.
Title: Re: POV's in TGO/TUC
Post by: Old Gnostic Fool on March 25, 2018, 08:50:58 pm
I was checking out the PON wiki yesterday and I found a few from The Judging Eye that I don't seem to recall.

It says that the White Luck Warrior has one in this novel. I think he was introduced in the selfsame novel WLW.
Who are the Scribe and Sranc that are also mentioned?
I'm guessing the Traveller refers to the prologue, where it is assumed that Sarl is the one in question.

http://princeofnothing.wikia.com/wiki/The_Judging_Eye_(Book)


Title: Re: POV's in TGO/TUC
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on March 25, 2018, 08:59:03 pm
I was checking out the PON wiki yesterday and I found a few from The Judging Eye that I don't seem to recall.

It says that the White Luck Warrior has one in this novel. I think he was introduced in the selfsame novel WLW.
Who are the Scribe and Sranc that are also mentioned?
I'm guessing the Traveller refers to the prologue, where it is assumed that Sarl is the one in question.

http://princeofnothing.wikia.com/wiki/The_Judging_Eye_(Book)

While my wiki edits haven't extended to book and POV pages yet, I can confirm that the White-Luck Warrior is indeed a POV character in TJE (I noticed that during my recent rework of the character list). He is "possessed" by the White-Luck and leaves his house and family just immediately before the whole building (neighbourhood?) collapses and kills everyone inside.

Can't remember where the Scribe and the Sranc come into play, but I can check if you want to.

I agree with you in that the Traveller refers to the prologue character. As far as I remember it was never confirmed that it was Sarl... I don't think it is him, because Sarl later mentions to Achamian he has been with the Captain since (at least) the time of the Holy War.
Title: Re: POV's in TGO/TUC
Post by: Old Gnostic Fool on March 26, 2018, 03:43:06 am
I was checking out the PON wiki yesterday and I found a few from The Judging Eye that I don't seem to recall.

It says that the White Luck Warrior has one in this novel. I think he was introduced in the selfsame novel WLW.
Who are the Scribe and Sranc that are also mentioned?
I'm guessing the Traveller refers to the prologue, where it is assumed that Sarl is the one in question.

http://princeofnothing.wikia.com/wiki/The_Judging_Eye_(Book)

While my wiki edits haven't extended to book and POV pages yet, I can confirm that the White-Luck Warrior is indeed a POV character in TJE (I noticed that during my recent rework of the character list). He is "possessed" by the White-Luck and leaves his house and family just immediately before the whole building (neighbourhood?) collapses and kills everyone inside.

Can't remember where the Scribe and the Sranc come into play, but I can check if you want to.

I agree with you in that the Traveller refers to the prologue character. As far as I remember it was never confirmed that it was Sarl... I don't think it is him, because Sarl later mentions to Achamian he has been with the Captain since (at least) the time of the Holy War.

Thanks a lot.

It would be nice to see the POV section extended for TGO and TUC. In fact, TGO doesn't even have it's own page until now.

Who is the character who gets possessed by the White luck in TJE. Even though I only read the series a few months ago, I don't remember anything close to that scene. It's probably my fault, as I tend to miss some of the more obvious things.

I guess it's already time for a reread. ;D
Title: Re: POV's in TGO/TUC
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on March 26, 2018, 10:17:46 am
Thanks a lot.

It would be nice to see the POV section extended for TGO and TUC. In fact, TGO doesn't even have it's own page until now.

Who is the character who gets possessed by the White luck in TJE. Even though I only read the series a few months ago, I don't remember anything close to that scene. It's probably my fault, as I tend to miss some of the more obvious things.

I guess it's already time for a reread. ;D

I will try to add those updates to the wiki when I can. ;)

We never know the actual name of the man who becomes the first White-Luck Warrior, he is just referred to as such and later as Issiral.

To be sure, it's a short passage, so it's not hard to forget it's there. :) But rereads are always a good way to find things you hadn't noticed before!
Title: Re: POV's in TGO/TUC
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on March 26, 2018, 02:13:55 pm
Just remembered - the Scribe refers to that letter at the very beginning of TJE (even before the Prologue). I think most people tend to forget about that one, I certainly did.

EDIT: The Sranc part is also at the beginning, I was being foolish and looking for it later in the book. It's a section in the Prologue immediately before the Traveller POV.
Title: Re: POV's in TGO/TUC
Post by: Old Gnostic Fool on March 27, 2018, 12:23:18 am
Thanks a lot.

It would be nice to see the POV section extended for TGO and TUC. In fact, TGO doesn't even have it's own page until now.

Who is the character who gets possessed by the White luck in TJE. Even though I only read the series a few months ago, I don't remember anything close to that scene. It's probably my fault, as I tend to miss some of the more obvious things.

I guess it's already time for a reread. ;D

I will try to add those updates to the wiki when I can. ;)

We never know the actual name of the man who becomes the first White-Luck Warrior, he is just referred to as such and later as Issiral.

To be sure, it's a short passage, so it's not hard to forget it's there. :) But rereads are always a good way to find things you hadn't noticed before!

I'll have to look into it, as I always thought that Issiral was the first WLW.

I'm also not too sure if I got all the POV's for TUC entirely nailed down, due to the constantly changing narrative used throughout the battle of Golgotterath.

Was the Mandate grandmaster (Sacarees) a POV or were those sections part of the omniscient narrator perspective.
Title: Re: POV's in TGO/TUC
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on March 27, 2018, 11:04:35 am
I'll have to look into it, as I always thought that Issiral was the first WLW.

I think I wasn't clear in my last post(s), sorry about that. I meant that the man with the TJE POV who became the first WLW was Issiral, it's just that he probably was named something else before becoming the WLW (and we never learn what his original name might have been). Issiral is almost certainly not his actual name...


I'm also not too sure if I got all the POV's for TUC entirely nailed down, due to the constantly changing narrative used throughout the battle of Golgotterath.

Was the Mandate grandmaster (Sacarees) a POV or were those sections part of the omniscient narrator perspective.

I had exactly the same problem when skimming through TUC looking for POVs that might have been missed.

I'm guessing you're referring to that section where Saccarees and KayŻtas find out Skuthula is guarding the Intrinsic Gate? I couldn't figure out if it was a Saccarees POV or an omniscient one. Seems a bit too specific to be omniscient, but then again, it doesn't seem to have any particular passages that indicate that it's from Saccarees' POV... (I would probably go with omniscient in this case.)

I also noticed that one section where Ussiliar and his Shrial Knights find Serwa after she's hit with the pulse from the Sun Lance. Seems like it could be from Ussiliar's POV at first glance, but there don't seem to be clear indicators that it is either.
Title: Re: POV's in TGO/TUC
Post by: MSJ on March 27, 2018, 01:42:40 pm
Quote from:  ToT
I think I wasn't clear in my last post(s), sorry about that. I meant that the man with the TJE POV who became the first WLW was Issiral, it's just that he probably was named something else before becoming the WLW (and we never learn what his original name might have been). Issiral is almost certainly not his actual name...

Issiral was the name of the Priest of Ajokli the WLW killed right before Esme had the meeting with the Priest. The WLW became the Priest of Ajokli, ergo Issiral.
Title: Re: POV's in TGO/TUC
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on March 27, 2018, 04:04:40 pm
Issiral was the name of the Priest of Ajokli the WLW killed right before Esme had the meeting with the Priest. The WLW became the Priest of Ajokli, ergo Issiral.

Okay, somehow I managed to forget this detail. (I feel dumb.) Still, the original man was not named Issiral, that's what I'm trying to get at.
Title: Re: POV's in TGO/TUC
Post by: Wilshire on March 29, 2018, 04:13:30 pm
So we don't know his name? The name of the man that abandoned his family to the collapsing tenement building and was subsequently anointed by Psatma?
Title: Re: POV's in TGO/TUC
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on March 29, 2018, 04:46:07 pm
So we don't know his name? The name of the man that abandoned his family to the collapsing tenement building and was subsequently anointed by Psatma?

I don't think we do, if you or someone else finds that information, feel free to prove me wrong. :)
Title: Re: POV's in TGO/TUC
Post by: Old Gnostic Fool on March 29, 2018, 10:39:49 pm
I'll have to look into it, as I always thought that Issiral was the first WLW.

I think I wasn't clear in my last post(s), sorry about that. I meant that the man with the TJE POV who became the first WLW was Issiral, it's just that he probably was named something else before becoming the WLW (and we never learn what his original name might have been). Issiral is almost certainly not his actual name...

Not at all. I read it again and perfectly understood what you meant. The mistake was entirely mine.

I'm also not too sure if I got all the POV's for TUC entirely nailed down, due to the constantly changing narrative used throughout the battle of Golgotterath.

Was the Mandate grandmaster (Sacarees) a POV or were those sections part of the omniscient narrator perspective.

I had exactly the same problem when skimming through TUC looking for POVs that might have been missed.

I'm guessing you're referring to that section where Saccarees and KayŻtas find out Skuthula is guarding the Intrinsic Gate? I couldn't figure out if it was a Saccarees POV or an omniscient one. Seems a bit too specific to be omniscient, but then again, it doesn't seem to have any particular passages that indicate that it's from Saccarees' POV... (I would probably go with omniscient in this case.)

I also noticed that one section where Ussiliar and his Shrial Knights find Serwa after she's hit with the pulse from the Sun Lance. Seems like it could be from Ussiliar's POV at first glance, but there don't seem to be clear indicators that it is either.

Yes, I'm refering to the section where Saccarees and Kayutas find Skuthula guarding the gate. I fully understand the confusion as it can be very hard to pin things down sometimes, especially when no internal monologues are present to clear up any doubts and Bakker is known for using an omniscient narrator to describe battle scenes.

Cnaiur is another peculiar case as we do see him march towards the Apocalypse at the very end. That's one section I'll have to go over again as I think I missed out on the little details, though I do believe it was his POV.

I'm also certain that Kalakiol (Ciphrang) and Aurang get their own POV's here, albeit brief ones.

Had it not been for the PON wiki, I would have missed out on the fact that Yatwer got her own tiny POV in TWLW.  ;D

Title: Re: POV's in TGO/TUC
Post by: Wilshire on April 25, 2018, 02:43:09 pm
Thanks SmilerLoki. I deleted the spam account and your comment since it no longer applies - don't want anyone to think Old Gnostic Fool is a spam account lol.
Title: Re: POV's in TGO/TUC
Post by: natanaj on April 27, 2018, 01:52:30 am
I have to say I really enjoyed the Moengus chapters. Especially the second person one. Why was it second person though?

Sent from my SM-J700T using Tapatalk

Title: Re: POV's in TGO/TUC
Post by: Dora Vee on April 27, 2018, 03:19:10 am
Second person tends to give a narrative an ethereal feel. I used to despise it, until I actually read a fanfic that used second person.
Title: Re: POV's in TGO/TUC
Post by: TLEILAXU on April 27, 2018, 01:43:54 pm
I actually can't remember the Yatwer POV at all... gonna have to make up for that.
Title: Re: POV's in TGO/TUC
Post by: Francis Buck on April 29, 2018, 08:29:37 pm
Not sure if you're counting Achamian's Dreams as POVs, but if you are then you can add Nau-Cayuti to the list. Also there's a Sranc POV very briefly somewhere in TWLW, where Soma is talking to one.

ETA: Nevermind, just saw you're only doing TGO/TUC.
Title: Re: POV's in TGO/TUC
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on April 30, 2018, 06:30:42 pm
Second person tends to give a narrative an ethereal feel. I used to despise it, until I actually read a fanfic that used second person.

I agree - it wouldn't work so well if it was used often in the series, but it being used just twice(?) makes it work effectively.
Title: Re: POV's in TGO/TUC
Post by: Old Gnostic Fool on May 14, 2018, 12:36:29 am
Not sure if you're counting Achamian's Dreams as POVs, but if you are then you can add Nau-Cayuti to the list. Also there's a Sranc POV very briefly somewhere in TWLW, where Soma is talking to one.

ETA: Nevermind, just saw you're only doing TGO/TUC.

Well I only mentioned the last two books because they are not covered by the PON wiki, but if something is missing from any of the others, I'd like to know that as well.

I was also trying to follow the format presented by the wiki, which excludes the POV dreams altogether.  If we include Nau-Cayuti, then we need to consider Seswatha as well from all the previous dreams present throughout the series.
Title: Re: POV's in TGO/TUC
Post by: Old Gnostic Fool on May 14, 2018, 12:43:34 am
I actually can't remember the Yatwer POV at all... gonna have to make up for that.

It's quite easy to miss. The wiki was especially helpful in reminding me of all the small ones scattered throughout the series.
Title: Re: POV's in TGO/TUC
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on May 14, 2018, 11:29:28 am
Well I only mentioned the last two books because they are not covered by the PON wiki, but if something is missing from any of the others, I'd like to know that as well.

Actually, that is a good idea, I'll try to check if something is missing as the current reread goes along.


I was also trying to follow the format presented by the wiki, which excludes the POV dreams altogether.  If we include Nau-Cayuti, then we need to consider Seswatha as well from all the previous dreams present throughout the series.

While we technically do have the POVs of Seswatha, Nau-CayŻti and Celmomas (am I missing anyone?) via the Dreams, they're not really direct POVs as the others are, as the main POV character is still Akka. They're more like secondary POVs. Maybe we could add them to the POV lists in the wiki as something like "Seswatha (in Achamian's Dreams)" or "Seswatha (secondary POV)"?
Title: Re: POV's in TGO/TUC
Post by: Old Gnostic Fool on May 15, 2018, 02:40:08 am
Well I only mentioned the last two books because they are not covered by the PON wiki, but if something is missing from any of the others, I'd like to know that as well.

Actually, that is a good idea, I'll try to check if something is missing as the current reread goes along.


I was also trying to follow the format presented by the wiki, which excludes the POV dreams altogether.  If we include Nau-Cayuti, then we need to consider Seswatha as well from all the previous dreams present throughout the series.

While we technically do have the POVs of Seswatha, Nau-CayŻti and Celmomas (am I missing anyone?) via the Dreams, they're not really direct POVs as the others are, as the main POV character is still Akka. They're more like secondary POVs. Maybe we could add them to the POV lists in the wiki as something like "Seswatha (in Achamian's Dreams)" or "Seswatha (secondary POV)"?

That's a good idea. I only remember those three from the dreams, so I'm not too sure if anyone is missing. We never get Serwa's POV when she's dreaming but I doubt it would involve anyone other than Seswatha.
Title: Re: POV's in TGO/TUC
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on May 15, 2018, 04:29:12 pm
That's a good idea. I only remember those three from the dreams, so I'm not too sure if anyone is missing. We never get Serwa's POV when she's dreaming but I doubt it would involve anyone other than Seswatha.

I'll do that for each of the books when I can, then. :)
I don't remember any other POV with the Dreams either.
In TWP (or is it TTT?) Akka talks to Nautzera in the middle of a Dream, but if I remember correctly, Akka is the POV there and not Nautzera. Do Nautzera's POV sections ever include a Dream? Like you said, Serwa's POV never actually includes her experiencing the Dreams, we only hear about them via Sorweel's POV. As far as I remember, there are no other POV characters that have actually touched Seswatha's Heart.
Title: Re: POV's in TGO/TUC
Post by: Swayal Serpent on May 16, 2018, 03:30:43 am
Has anyone mentioned Saccarees POV in TGO? He had a small section when Aurang arrives at Dagliash. He tried to challenge Aurang while channeling Seswatha until Aurang left
Title: Re: POV's in TGO/TUC
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on May 16, 2018, 10:50:01 am
Has anyone mentioned Saccarees POV in TGO? He had a small section when Aurang arrives at Dagliash. He tried to challenge Aurang while channeling Seswatha until Aurang left

I think you're right, no one seems to have mentioned that one yet. I had completely forgotten, but he did have a "direct" POV in TGO (as in, one that isn't an omniscient POV that could be mistaken as his), unlike in TUC.
Title: Re: POV's in TGO/TUC
Post by: Old Gnostic Fool on May 20, 2018, 12:25:19 am

I'll do that for each of the books when I can, then. :)
I don't remember any other POV with the Dreams either.
In TWP (or is it TTT?) Akka talks to Nautzera in the middle of a Dream, but if I remember correctly, Akka is the POV there and not Nautzera. Do Nautzera's POV sections ever include a Dream?

It was at the beginning of TTT and it was from Achamian's POV. Nautzera only gets one section in TTT where Maithanet arrives to expose the skin spy. I know he has one in TDTCB, but I read that one  a while back so I don't remember what that section involves.

 
Quote
Like you said, Serwa's POV never actually includes her experiencing the Dreams, we only hear about them via Sorweel's POV. As far as I remember, there are no other POV characters that have actually touched Seswatha's Heart.

Serwa's POV's in TGO happen while she's being held hostage at Ishterebinth and in TUC during the battle against the Wracu. She describes some of her dreams to Sorweel when he questions her, but that is never done durin her POV.

I don't think anyone else has touched Seswatha's heart. It's  a shame we never got Eskeles as a POV as I would have like to know more about him.
Title: Re: POV's in TGO/TUC
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on May 20, 2018, 12:15:43 pm
It was at the beginning of TTT and it was from Achamian's POV. Nautzera only gets one section in TTT where Maithanet arrives to expose the skin spy. I know he has one in TDTCB, but I read that one a while back so I don't remember what that section involves.

Ah, so I was remembering correctly, it was actually Akka's POV.
Nautzera does have a section in TDTCB (we covered that chapter in the reread a few weeks back), but it mainly consists on his conversation with Simas after Akka leaves, so no Dreams there.


Serwa's POV's in TGO happen while she's being held hostage at Ishterebinth and in TUC during the battle against the Wracu. She describes some of her dreams to Sorweel when he questions her, but that is never done durin her POV.

I don't think anyone else has touched Seswatha's heart. It's  a shame we never got Eskeles as a POV as I would have like to know more about him.

Yes, exactly, when we finally get into Serwa's head, we never get the chance to see some actual Dreams from her perspective. What a shame. It would be interesting to see the Dreams from a woman's POV, too, aside from all the rest. If she does end up surviving, I hope we finally get some Dreams in her POV in TNG (that assuming she remains a POV character - I see no reason why she wouldn't if she lives, but you never know).

No other POV characters seem to have touched Seswatha's heart. There are quite a few Mandate sorcerers and Swayali witches in the Great Ordeal that are given names during TAE, but I don't think we ever get a POV from any of them (if we do get a section or two, it doesn't involve Dreams anyway).

And I agree about Eskeles, it's disappointing how he just vanishes from the narrative while Sorweel is in Ishterebinth, then comes back and has a few scenes in TUC, only to get killed by Skuthula. I would have liked to know more too.

I really hope Akka - and maybe Serwa - aren't the only Mandati/Swayali to survive the events of the end of TUC. These people have had Seswatha's Dreams for years (in the case of the witches, whose School is quite recent) or decades (most of the Mandate sorcerers), you'd think we'd see the reactions and thoughts of at least a few when confronted with the Second Apocalypse actually becoming a reality.
Title: Re: POV's in TGO/TUC
Post by: Wilshire on July 22, 2019, 05:25:22 pm
Eskeles being one of the ones that was fat on purpose and then starved to remain sane, is definitely a big miss in the narrative. Its something that could have been fleshed out (no pun intended) a lot more but seems to have been left on the cutting room floor.