The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The Unholy Consult => Topic started by: ThoughtsOfThelli on May 01, 2018, 01:15:53 pm

Title: Serwa seen with the Judging Eye
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on May 01, 2018, 01:15:53 pm
I'm referring to this passage:

Quote from: TUC Chapter 17
Sees a slender Ciphrang hanging as high as the future, showering the earth with death-a witch, wet with the fires of damnation, burns heaped upon burns.

I still can't understand why Serwa (who is at most 17 years old (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=2498.msg43865#new) at this point) would be so damned as to qualify as a potential Ciphrang. Sure, she is a witch, but Mimara looked at Nil'giccas, who had been using sorcery for thousands of years, with the Judging Eye and did not see him as a Ciphrang. Unlike characters such as CnaiŁr or Kosoter, Serwa isn't responsible for decades of murder, rape, torture, destruction, etc. So what exactly is the factor (or factors) that make Serwa into a potential Ciphrang?
Title: Re: Serwa seen with the Judging Eye
Post by: themerchant on May 01, 2018, 02:21:13 pm
She uses people. Her father is "Ajokli".

Would be my speculation.
Title: Re: Serwa seen with the Judging Eye
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on May 01, 2018, 02:41:53 pm
She uses people. Her father is "Ajokli".

Would be my speculation.

She does use people and is quite ruthless, but that still doesn't seem like enough for qualification as a Ciphrang...

You might be on to something with the Ajokli connection, though.
Title: Re: Serwa seen with the Judging Eye
Post by: MSJ on May 01, 2018, 02:44:46 pm
Nah, she is damned like that because of her use of sorcery. She is the 2nd most powerful sorcerer behind Kellhus on Earwa.
Title: Re: Serwa seen with the Judging Eye
Post by: themerchant on May 01, 2018, 02:47:13 pm
She uses people. Her father is "Ajokli".

Would be my speculation.

She does use people and is quite ruthless, but that still doesn't seem like enough for qualification as a Ciphrang...

You might be on to something with the Ajokli connection, though.

I'll need to revisit the Kellhus / esmenet conversation at the start of TUC, as that's where Kellhus talks about accumulating sin, and my vague memory of using people means uber sin comes from that.

Kosoter looks like a ciphrang as well and he used no sorcery (that we know of) although i think Kosoter might be a demonic replicate. 
Title: Re: Serwa seen with the Judging Eye
Post by: H on May 01, 2018, 05:38:37 pm
Any DŻnyain is de-facto damned, so I don't think it would take too much more to gain her "Ciphrang-level" damnation, which probably even just her association with, let alone relation to, Kellhus is probably more than enough.
Title: Re: Serwa seen with the Judging Eye
Post by: TLEILAXU on May 01, 2018, 08:17:31 pm
I'm referring to this passage:

Quote from: TUC Chapter 17
Sees a slender Ciphrang hanging as high as the future, showering the earth with death-a witch, wet with the fires of damnation, burns heaped upon burns.

I still can't understand why Serwa (who is at most 17 years old (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=2498.msg43865#new) at this point) would be so damned as to qualify as a potential Ciphrang. Sure, she is a witch, but Mimara looked at Nil'giccas, who had been using sorcery for thousands of years, with the Judging Eye and did not see him as a Ciphrang. Unlike characters such as CnaiŁr or Kosoter, Serwa isn't responsible for decades of murder, rape, torture, destruction, etc. So what exactly is the factor (or factors) that make Serwa into a potential Ciphrang?
It's not just about sin itself, but also about the force of will that a person possesses.
Title: Re: Serwa seen with the Judging Eye
Post by: SmilerLoki on May 01, 2018, 09:36:25 pm
It's not just about sin itself, but also about the force of will that a person possesses.
I always had a problem with that, because the whole Ajokli debacle stems from Kellhus being, essentially, weak-willed. Which is then extrapolated on the Dunyain as a whole. That includes Serwa.
Title: Re: Serwa seen with the Judging Eye
Post by: CiphrangBarbeque on May 02, 2018, 10:54:10 am
Its a very good question. With thousands of years to life, you would think a monumental figure like Nil'Giccas or Aurang could also make their way to the top of the Hell food chain..
Title: Re: Serwa seen with the Judging Eye
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on May 02, 2018, 01:15:17 pm
Nah, she is damned like that because of her uae of sorcery. She is the wnd most powerful sorcerer behind Kellhus on Earwa.

I can see where you're coming from, MSJ, but it still doesn't seem like enough to reach Ciphrang-level (as H put it). Sure, she is "wet with the fires of damnation" as Mimara described her, that does make sense. But no matter how powerful she is, the point still stands that she has been using sorcery for a maximum of 14 years (seeing as she was identified as one of the Few at age 3). Compare that to the Nonmen QŻya, how many millennia they had to hone their skills. If that was the case, Mimara would have to see Nil'giccas as a Ciphrang as well and not "just" damned.



Any DŻnyain is de-facto damned, so I don't think it would take too much more to gain her "Ciphrang-level" damnation, which probably even just her association with, let alone relation to, Kellhus is probably more than enough.

A good point, H, but wouldn't the "DŻnyain original sin" make Mimara see Koringhus as a Ciphrang too? Did you mean that the DŻnyain factor plus the use of sorcery is what pushes Serwa into Ciphrang-level damnation? If so, yes, that does make sense...
Serwa is, however, one generation removed from the "original sin", not having been born of a whale-mother like Kellhus, Koringhus or the Boy. Though I suppose "sins of the fathers" could be in play here and it wouldn't matter.



It's not just about sin itself, but also about the force of will that a person possesses.

I always had a problem with that, because the whole Ajokli debacle stems from Kellhus being, essentially, weak-willed. Which is then extrapolated on the Dunyain as a whole. That includes Serwa.

While I'm still kind of torn on this particular point, I agree with SmilerLoki here.



Its a very good question. With thousands of years to life, you would think a monumental figure like Nil'Giccas or Aurang could also make their way to the top of the Hell food chain..

Aurang and his fellow Inchoroi were designed for that very purpose, so that is certainly the case with him.
While I'm not saying that a human lifespan is not enough to attain Ciphrang-level (it certainly is, look at CnaiŁr), it does seem far less likely for a human to reach that threshold of damnation. And CnaiŁr is in his late 60s by the time Mimara looks at him with the Judging Eye, he's had decades to get to that level. Serwa hasn't.

Considering all the options that have been discussed in this thread so far, I'm starting to think that Serwa's case is indeed the result of a combination of factors that aren't present in other characters (even if I'm not still 100% satisfied with that explanation).
Title: Re: Serwa seen with the Judging Eye
Post by: BeardFisher-King on May 02, 2018, 01:38:08 pm
I'm referring to this passage:

Quote from: TUC Chapter 17
Sees a slender Ciphrang hanging as high as the future, showering the earth with death-a witch, wet with the fires of damnation, burns heaped upon burns.

I still can't understand why Serwa (who is at most 17 years old (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=2498.msg43865#new) at this point) would be so damned as to qualify as a potential Ciphrang. Sure, she is a witch, but Mimara looked at Nil'giccas, who had been using sorcery for thousands of years, with the Judging Eye and did not see him as a Ciphrang. Unlike characters such as CnaiŁr or Kosoter, Serwa isn't responsible for decades of murder, rape, torture, destruction, etc. So what exactly is the factor (or factors) that make Serwa into a potential Ciphrang?
Perhaps it's her sheer ability with the Metagnosis that marks her as Ciphrang? The Metagnosis is a more reality-altering (and hence more damning) tool than other forms of sorcery.
Title: Re: Serwa seen with the Judging Eye
Post by: H on May 02, 2018, 02:11:48 pm
A good point, H, but wouldn't the "DŻnyain original sin" make Mimara see Koringhus as a Ciphrang too? Did you mean that the DŻnyain factor plus the use of sorcery is what pushes Serwa into Ciphrang-level damnation? If so, yes, that does make sense...
Serwa is, however, one generation removed from the "original sin", not having been born of a whale-mother like Kellhus, Koringhus or the Boy. Though I suppose "sins of the fathers" could be in play here and it wouldn't matter.

I didn't put it very succinctly, but yeah my idea was that she begins with DŻnyain original sin and only digs herself further down via the meta-gnosis and her aiding and abetting Kellhus (and perhaps even proximity too).  Koringhus really hasn't actually done much personally to garner a greater level of damnation (that we know of) and arguably might have even done some redeeming things (saving the boy).  It seems plausible to me that Serwa started in the hole of generational sin and only deepened that, especially if we imagine that incest could be consider a sin by the Cubit.
Title: Re: Serwa seen with the Judging Eye
Post by: themerchant on May 02, 2018, 04:49:53 pm
Kellhus describes the union between his intellect and esme "heart" as trying to bridle a lion with string.

Remember she is half esme as well.
Title: Re: Serwa seen with the Judging Eye
Post by: SmilerLoki on May 02, 2018, 04:55:47 pm
especially if we imagine that incest could be consider a sin by the Cubit.
Moenghus Jr. isn't really Serwa's brother, though. They're not related by blood.

I mean, her sleeping with him is presented as way messed up, but I'm not buying it. Serwa sleeps with exactly two men "on-screen", both of who genuinely love her. Even more so, she herself genuinely cares about both of them. For all the manipulative stuff that's going on there, I couldn't help but feel that her choices of sexual partners are fairly healthy.

But, granted, I'm not really judgy about sex. It's consensual? Then fine. The objective moral code of Earwa is probably much more strict than my contemporary ambivalence.
Title: Re: Serwa seen with the Judging Eye
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on May 02, 2018, 05:46:54 pm
I didn't put it very succinctly, but yeah my idea was that she begins with DŻnyain original sin and only digs herself further down via the meta-gnosis and her aiding and abetting Kellhus (and perhaps even proximity too).  Koringhus really hasn't actually done much personally to garner a greater level of damnation (that we know of) and arguably might have even done some redeeming things (saving the boy).  It seems plausible to me that Serwa started in the hole of generational sin and only deepened that, especially if we imagine that incest could be consider a sin by the Cubit.


That's true about Koringhus. It would be nice if we knew what Mimara would have seen with the Judging Eye had she ever looked at, say, Maithanet, KayŻtas, Thelli or Inrilatas with it (granted, we don't know that she didn't, but it's never mentioned) to have more points of comparison. (I'm not including Kelmomas or Samarmas because of the whole No-God thing.)
Oh, the incest is also in play here, that's right. I had forgotten about that other factor. According to Sorweel, incest is very much considered a sin, though we seem to only have his opinion on the subject. I can only think of one other case, CŻ'jara-Cinmoi's parents, who were apparently both executed for their sin (that doesn't really lend itself to further conclusions, as CŻnuroi society might have had a different view of incest). But anyway, it doesn't surprise me that the Gods would view Serwa and MoŽnghus 's relationship as actual incest - and thus damn them for it - even if there is no biological relation.


Kellhus describes the union between his intellect and esme "heart" as trying to bridle a lion with string.

Remember she is half esme as well.

Serwa has a much more balanced personality than Inrilatas, but then again we can't completely exclude this as a contributing factor...



Moenghus Jr. isn't really Serwa's brother, though. They're not related by blood.

I mean, her sleeping with him is presented as way messed up, but I'm not buying it. Serwa sleeps with exactly two men "on-screen", both of who genuinely love her. Even more so, she herself genuinely cares about both of them. For all the manipulative stuff that's going on there, I couldn't help but feel that her choices of sexual partners are fairly healthy.

But, granted, I'm not really judgy about sex. It's consensual? Then fine. The objective moral code of Earwa is probably much more strict than my contemporary ambivalence.

Sure, MoŽnghus and Serwa are not biologically (half-)brother and sister, but they were raised to think of themselves as such. Kellhus has insisted that MoŽnghus is his son and a true AnasŻrimbor since day one, and that has a meaning in Ešrwa. It's not unlikely that the Gods (like Sorweel) would see it and treat it as actual biological incest.

I myself have no issues with Serwa's sexual relationships with either MoŽnghus or Sorweel (they are frankly much healthier than most of the others shown in the series, not to mention Serwa seems to be the only female character whose sexual relationships are all consensual), I am just saying that I can see how it would be considered incest in-universe, if not out of it. And yes, Ešrwa morality does seem to be quite strict, so there's that too.
Title: Re: Serwa seen with the Judging Eye
Post by: H on May 03, 2018, 10:42:56 am
Yeah, I should have put "incest" in quotes, because it is debatable if the Cubit would consider it "real" or not.  We simply don't know.  There is a fair moral case for either side, really.  The point being, of course, that Serwa is probably completely morally ambiguous in general and being that she most probably was born into some sort of "moralistic debt" it seems unlikely that she ever did enough to overcome that, let alone not descend further.
Title: Re: Serwa seen with the Judging Eye
Post by: JerakoKayne on May 03, 2018, 11:44:05 am
It's her hunger. Ciphrang are defined as Hunger. Her desires, the fulcrum of her soul (that which drives the very core of what is Serwa) is centered on using/devouring other souls. That she has not been doing this long is irrelevant; she is the type of soul that Hungers enough to feed on other souls in the Ciphrang way in the Outside.

EDIT: To elaborate, while I still hold on to this drunken thought, I was disappointed we never do get to see Kellhus under the Judging Eye. I suspect he would not be damned in the way other Dunyain are (though probably for other reasons, i.e. the Hundred's despisal?). It's a supreme self-centered nature that drives the Ciphrang. Whether his subjects are treated poorly or not doesn't matter to him, to be fair. "Good" and "evil" are irrelevant to his objectives, at least regarding the means he uses to achieve them. In the end, Kellhus can loosely be described as altruistic. His base motivations, why he went through all he did, really was to "save the world." Not because he is soft-hearted about them, but rather because he truly believes the world being Shut is a bad thing for the Dunyain mission (read: a bad thing for people not-Kellhus). He uses other people to accomplish this, but it's a meta-self interest, rather than self, that drives him.

Even his willing exile from Ishual wasn't for his own interest; it was deemed necessary for the Dunyain as a whole.

Serwa is entirely interested in Serwa, and what she can glean out of her circumstances.

Re-EDIT: Kellhus describing himself as "descending as hunger" in the Inverse Fire is an extremely blurred line between Ajokli and Kellhus. Maybe that is his damnation, if the Kellhus personality is damned?
Title: Re: Serwa seen with the Judging Eye
Post by: SmilerLoki on May 03, 2018, 07:50:01 pm
It's her hunger. Ciphrang are defined as Hunger.
Kellhus describes himself in the Outside as Hunger. Whether that constitutes Ciphrang, we have no way of knowing.

Serwa is entirely interested in Serwa, and what she can glean out of her circumstances.
I heavily dispute this. If anything, Serwa is defined by her love for her father. She follows him, she looks up to him, she always does what he says, she calls on him when she is in trouble (the light weapon incident), and even her last recorded thought is "Father!".

Yes, she rationalizes her actions and devotion to Kelmomas, but it stands hollow to me. For all her intellect, Serwa is still a child, which is best evidenced in her relationship with Sorweel. Young girls love their fathers, and she is by no means an exception.
Title: Re: Serwa seen with the Judging Eye
Post by: SuJuroit on May 04, 2018, 09:03:56 pm
Harweel claims that Kellhus is a Hunger in TJE.  Between that and Kellhus' words in TUC, I'm comfortable using the word to describe ciphrang.
Title: Re: Serwa seen with the Judging Eye
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on May 04, 2018, 09:20:38 pm
Yeah, I should have put "incest" in quotes, because it is debatable if the Cubit would consider it "real" or not.  We simply don't know.  There is a fair moral case for either side, really.  The point being, of course, that Serwa is probably completely morally ambiguous in general and being that she most probably was born into some sort of "moralistic debt" it seems unlikely that she ever did enough to overcome that, let alone not descend further.

Fair enough, I accept that explanation. After all, thinking on it, we don't even have anyone else with the same combination of factors possibly influencing her damnation (DŻnyain "original sin" + sorcery + "incest" + Thousandfold Thought). I can see why she could be damned at a "Ciphrang-level" while, say, Koringhus, isn't. (I would still love to know how Maithanet, MoŽnghus II, KayŻtas, Thelli and Inrilatas would be seen by the Judging Eye, since all of these have at least one of the factors influencing Serwa's damnation present...)


It's her hunger. Ciphrang are defined as Hunger. Her desires, the fulcrum of her soul (that which drives the very core of what is Serwa) is centered on using/devouring other souls. That she has not been doing this long is irrelevant; she is the type of soul that Hungers enough to feed on other souls in the Ciphrang way in the Outside.

Serwa is entirely interested in Serwa, and what she can glean out of her circumstances.

I'm going to respectfully disagree with you there, while I admit that Serwa does look to her own interests in occasion, she is mostly concerned with helping her father achieve his Thousandfold Thought. I do not read her as entirely self-centered at all.


I heavily dispute this. If anything, Serwa is defined by her love for her father. She follows him, she looks up to him, she always does what he says, she calls on him when she is in trouble (the light weapon incident), and even her last recorded thought is "Father!".

I agree with this, her first and foremost interest is certainly Kellhus (and his goals), not herself.


Yes, she rationalizes her actions and devotion to Kelmomas, but it stands hollow to me. For all her intellect, Serwa is still a child, which is best evidenced in her relationship with Sorweel. Young girls love their fathers, and she is by no means an exception.

I think Serwa does genuinely believe what she tells Kelmomas, or at least most of it (opinions may vary, as always). To be sure, she might actually believe it and subconsciously be devoted to Kellhus for other reasons. She has quite clearly always been his favourite child, so there's that (and yes, Kellhus' affection for his children is...debatable, but I think we can agree she is the most prized one for her usefulness).
Title: Re: Serwa seen with the Judging Eye
Post by: SmilerLoki on May 04, 2018, 09:33:14 pm
Harweel claims that Kellhus is a Hunger in TJE.  Between that and Kellhus' words in TUC, I'm comfortable using the word to describe ciphrang.
While I agree it's what Harweel meant, I don't think he and Kellhus are talking about the same thing at all. Kellhus is just clearly in possession of much more information pertaining to the Outside. His perspective is not at all equal to Harweel's, it's the difference between the informed and the uninformed here.

I think Serwa does genuinely believe what she tells Kelmomas, or at least most of it (opinions may vary, as always). To be sure, she might actually believe it and subconsciously be devoted to Kellhus for other reasons. She has quite clearly always been his favourite child, so there's that (and yes, Kellhus' affection for his children is...debatable, but I think we can agree she is the most prized one for her usefulness).
Yes, I agree, I do think she isn't lying, basically rationalizing it to herself as well.

Though I'm kinda torn about Kellhus's affections. I don't really see him as that interested in his children and their well-being. Concerning them, he always comes off like a cold-hearted bastard. But yes, he does use them as tools, and in that capacity Serwa is certainly the most useful one.
Title: Re: Serwa seen with the Judging Eye
Post by: TLEILAXU on May 05, 2018, 01:30:17 pm
It's not just about sin itself, but also about the force of will that a person possesses.
I always had a problem with that, because the whole Ajokli debacle stems from Kellhus being, essentially, weak-willed. Which is then extrapolated on the Dunyain as a whole. That includes Serwa.
Serwa isn't a full DŻnyain though. She has prodigious intellect and physical abilities, but her heart is still human. Whereas a DŻnyain heart which hungers only for the Absolute, would be more likely to just be damned, Serwa's human heart is more likely to turn her into a timeless hunger. At least that's the way I see it, but maybe the description is not so much about Serwa actually qualifying for Ciphrang-status as the pure depth of her sin, which again might be explained by all the factors already mentioned in this thread.
Title: Re: Serwa seen with the Judging Eye
Post by: Wilshire on May 07, 2018, 01:40:45 pm
My initial instinct was that it was her use of the metagnosis, but upon reflection, I don't think this is likely. I doubt, sincerely, that the use of one magic is more damning than another - sans Psuke. What's more important is effects - assuming causing deaths of thousands is worse than deaths of a single person, sorcery has a unique ability to commit sins en masse.

But, even still, Serwa hasn't been around for nearly so long as other magi, and has not spent her life warring against other men (assuming killing sranc doesn't count as sin).

My thought is that it has something to do with her personally. Thinking back to the idea that knowledge is what makes sin, Serwa is painfully aware of her actions and their repercussions. She's aware of the falseness of her father, that he isn't a god but a man playing god's game. Shes aware that all the men in the ordeal is damned and does nothing to stop or, etc. etc. Her Ciphranginess comes from her quasi-dunyain ability to know her actions

At least, that's what I'm going with.
Title: Re: Serwa seen with the Judging Eye
Post by: SuJuroit on May 07, 2018, 03:02:02 pm
Harweel claims that Kellhus is a Hunger in TJE.  Between that and Kellhus' words in TUC, I'm comfortable using the word to describe ciphrang.
While I agree it's what Harweel meant, I don't think he and Kellhus are talking about the same thing at all. Kellhus is just clearly in possession of much more information pertaining to the Outside. His perspective is not at all equal to Harweel's, it's the difference between the informed and the uninformed here.

Kellhus certainly knows more, but they're both talking about the same thing; Ciphrang are hunger.  They're defined by it, such that people who don't have any special knowledge or insight into the Outside use the word to refer to them.  Think about everything we know about Ciphrang.  Every time we see them on screen, they're lusting for souls, driven to satisfy themselves.  Ajokli's grand plot that drove the entire series was to manifest in the Inward so he could FEAST.

Remember that in the Outside, everything that makes people human is meat to them.  Meat to sate their hunger.

Quote
My thought is that it has something to do with her personally. Thinking back to the idea that knowledge is what makes sin, Serwa is painfully aware of her actions and their repercussions. She's aware of the falseness of her father, that he isn't a god but a man playing god's game. Shes aware that all the men in the ordeal is damned and does nothing to stop or, etc. etc. Her Ciphranginess comes from her quasi-dunyain ability to know her actions

I'm not sure that knowledge or ignorance of sin matters in Earwa.  Didn't Bakker tell us there was a right and a wrong way to believe/act, and if you happened to be born into the wrong religion, sucks to be you.  Whole nations would be damned, etc.   I'm more inclined to think it goes towards her actions.  Kellhus tells us that using others as tools is especially damning, and Serwa is certainly guilty of that in a big way, in addition to her mastery of sorcery.
Title: Re: Serwa seen with the Judging Eye
Post by: SmilerLoki on May 07, 2018, 03:58:47 pm
Ajokli's grand plot that drove the entire series was to manifest in the Inward so he could FEAST.
That is precisely why I made a distinction here. People talk about Ciphrang feasting on souls. They most certainly do not talk about the Gods that way, and Ajokli is a God. Now, Kellhus does refer to the Gods in all kinds of manners that mark them as no more than Ciphrang on a bigger scale, but Kellhus is the only one in-universe who does that.
Title: Re: Serwa seen with the Judging Eye
Post by: SuJuroit on May 07, 2018, 07:19:14 pm
Ajokli's grand plot that drove the entire series was to manifest in the Inward so he could FEAST.
That is precisely why I made a distinction here. People talk about Ciphrang feasting on souls. They most certainly do not talk about the Gods that way, and Ajokli is a God. Now, Kellhus does refer to the Gods in all kinds of manners that mark them as no more than Ciphrang on a bigger scale, but Kellhus is the only one in-universe who does that.

Psatma Nannaferi flat out told somebody (Meppa?) that Yatwer would eat him.  The gods also feast.

The Cishaurim, and by extension all Fanim, believe that The Hundred are nothing but upjumped Ciphrang. 
Title: Re: Serwa seen with the Judging Eye
Post by: Wilshire on May 07, 2018, 07:53:00 pm
Quote
My thought is that it has something to do with her personally. Thinking back to the idea that knowledge is what makes sin, Serwa is painfully aware of her actions and their repercussions. She's aware of the falseness of her father, that he isn't a god but a man playing god's game. Shes aware that all the men in the ordeal is damned and does nothing to stop or, etc. etc. Her Ciphranginess comes from her quasi-dunyain ability to know her actions

I'm not sure that knowledge or ignorance of sin matters in Earwa.  Didn't Bakker tell us there was a right and a wrong way to believe/act, and if you happened to be born into the wrong religion, sucks to be you.  Whole nations would be damned, etc.   I'm more inclined to think it goes towards her actions.  Kellhus tells us that using others as tools is especially damning, and Serwa is certainly guilty of that in a big way, in addition to her mastery of sorcery.

Yes, Bakker said there's objective morality and whole nations are damned because of it. In the world of TSA, I'm not sure that answer is particularly revealing.

Knowledge and ignorance are really the only things that we are shown makes sin. I think MSJ can help you out with that one ;) .

Sorcery, on the other hand, we have no idea if it makes you damned or not. We know it makes you marked, but we have less information on The Mark than we do on damnation. I suspect the two phenomenon are largely separate - it just so happens that most people use magic to kill people, and schoolmen/quya tend to be knowledgeable people. Both attributes leading to damnation - sorcery is merely the means, not the cause.
Title: Re: Serwa seen with the Judging Eye
Post by: SuJuroit on May 07, 2018, 08:55:29 pm
Quote
Knowledge and ignorance are really the only things that we are shown makes sin. I think MSJ can help you out with that one ;) .

I think sin makes sin in Earwa.  Ignorance of the sin appears to be no excuse, but ignorance seems to lead to "better" behavior and knowledge to worse.  That makes sense if using people as tools is a great sin; the less you know and understand, the harder it is to manipulate and use others. 

Quote
Sorcery, on the other hand, we have no idea if it makes you damned or not. We know it makes you marked, but we have less information on The Mark than we do on damnation. I suspect the two phenomenon are largely separate - it just so happens that most people use magic to kill people, and schoolmen/quya tend to be knowledgeable people. Both attributes leading to damnation - sorcery is merely the means, not the cause.

Yeah, it's not clear cut.  Mimara sees Akka as a blasted, charred figure, irrevocably damned.  But is that because of his Mark, or because Akka has killed many people and probably used and manipulated plenty of others in his career as a spy?  As you say, we actually know little about Damnation.  It's not clear to me what Damnation even means in the context of what Mimara sees.  We're told salvation by The Hundred is arbitrary and capricious; you merely have to be liked.  Could Gilgaol "save" a mighty warrior that killed hundreds of men and showed as Damned in Mimara's Judging Eye?  So perhaps Mimara's Eye does accurately see Damnation but everybody gets a last saving throw when they die to see if a god likes them enough to "save" them?

My gut tells me that sorcery and the Mark DO lead to Damnation because they offend the God, marring his creation, singing in his Voice.  But then, what role does the God have in Damnation?  He sleeps.  He doesn't eat in the Outside.  Are the Ciphrang (including The Hundred) and their hunger his will?
Title: Re: Serwa seen with the Judging Eye
Post by: SmilerLoki on May 08, 2018, 02:34:10 am
Psatma Nannaferi flat out told somebody (Meppa?) that Yatwer would eat him.  The gods also feast.

The Cishaurim, and by extension all Fanim, believe that The Hundred are nothing but upjumped Ciphrang.
The Fanim do not consider the Gods to be Gods, they call them demons in a religious sense, and their views on Ciphrang as actual existing entities are unknown (at least I don't currently remember them being expressed).

Psatma is a good point, yes, and she is much closer to Kellhus than Harweel because of her direct line to the divine. That said, she makes a clear distinction between the Gods and Ciphrang. She is a believer. Kellhus isn't.

My point is, when Kellhus talks about the Outside and its agencies, his words cannot be viewed in the context of common beliefs. They should be viewed metaphysically, using cutting edge knowledge about the workings of Earwa. Harweel or even the priests of the Thousand Temples can neither corroborate nor dispute Kellhus, they are not in possession of enough information to do so. Someone like Psatma is a better counterpoint, but her arguments are inherently tainted by her beliefs, which are irrational by definition. The Nonmen would also serve as a source of relevant information here.
Title: Re: Serwa seen with the Judging Eye
Post by: Wilshire on May 08, 2018, 04:19:21 pm
Psatma is a better counterpoint, but her arguments are inherently tainted by her beliefs, which are irrational by definition. The Nonmen would also serve as a source of relevant information here.
Kellhus has his own beliefs to deal with though. By the time we get to hear more in detail from him, he's basically a raving lunatic - can't decipher his own machinations from that of Ajokli.

I'm definitely inclined to take Psatma's word at the same level of Kellhus. They both have ego, and belief, expectation, and circumstance changing how they interpret and relay information to those around them (and by extension the reader).
Title: Re: Serwa seen with the Judging Eye
Post by: SuJuroit on May 08, 2018, 05:27:34 pm
Quote
The Fanim do not consider the Gods to be Gods, they call them demons in a religious sense, and their views on Ciphrang as actual existing entities are unknown (at least I don't currently remember them being expressed).

Psatma is a good point, yes, and she is much closer to Kellhus than Harweel because of her direct line to the divine. That said, she makes a clear distinction between the Gods and Ciphrang. She is a believer. Kellhus isn't.

Psatma literally states that she worships a demon when pressed by Meppa.  She justifies it via an appeal to power, but she doesn't make a clear distinction between gods and demons at all.  Only that Yatwer is the strongest demon.

Quote
My point is, when Kellhus talks about the Outside and its agencies, his words cannot be viewed in the context of common beliefs. They should be viewed metaphysically, using cutting edge knowledge about the workings of Earwa. Harweel or even the priests of the Thousand Temples can neither corroborate nor dispute Kellhus, they are not in possession of enough information to do so. Someone like Psatma is a better counterpoint, but her arguments are inherently tainted by her beliefs, which are irrational by definition. The Nonmen would also serve as a source of relevant information here.

I'm not sure I understand your point here.  Yes, it's reasonable to assume Kellhus knows more about the metaphysics of Earwa than anybody else, but what does that have to do with how and what the people of Earwa think about Ciphrang?  Perhaps they're wrong in believing Ciphrang to be hungers, although I don't think they are based on all available evidence, but they do think that.
In the WLW, we get the following from Malowebi's internal monologue;

Quote
"If he were a demon, then Zeum should arm for immediate war, now, before he achieved his immediate goals, for demons were simply Hungers from the abyss, insatiable in their pursuit of destruction."
Title: Re: Serwa seen with the Judging Eye
Post by: TaoHorror on May 08, 2018, 09:58:21 pm
Could be clues on the "equation" of salvation/damnation can be learned from the Mimarra/Koringhus exchange. He's damned in the eye and then after a time, he's not. What did he do to "earn" salvation back? He refrained from murdering her. And she forgave him. Was it the change in direction or lack of the act that saved him, both or neither? Does Mimarra ( the Eye? ) have the ability to save people? Questions ...
Title: Re: Serwa seen with the Judging Eye
Post by: TLEILAXU on May 08, 2018, 10:31:01 pm
Could be clues on the "equation" of salvation/damnation can be learned from the Mimarra/Koringhus exchange. He's damned in the eye and then after a time, he's not. What did he do to "earn" salvation back? He refrained from murdering her. And she forgave him. Was it the change in direction or lack of the act that saved him, both or neither? Does Mimarra ( the Eye? ) have the ability to save people? Questions ...
His realization that humanity, ignorance etc. is Holy and his leap of faith.
Title: Re: Serwa seen with the Judging Eye
Post by: TaoHorror on May 09, 2018, 01:49:31 am
Could be clues on the "equation" of salvation/damnation can be learned from the Mimarra/Koringhus exchange. He's damned in the eye and then after a time, he's not. What did he do to "earn" salvation back? He refrained from murdering her. And she forgave him. Was it the change in direction or lack of the act that saved him, both or neither? Does Mimarra ( the Eye? ) have the ability to save people? Questions ...
His realization that humanity, ignorance etc. is Holy and his leap of faith.
So when he grasps that understanding, he's saved, is what your saying - you can't force yourself to become ignorant, not that fast at least.
Title: Re: Serwa seen with the Judging Eye
Post by: SmilerLoki on May 09, 2018, 03:10:43 am
I'm definitely inclined to take Psatma's word at the same level of Kellhus.
Therein lies one of the problems with Bakker's plot and its interaction with the narrative structure of the series. If we consider Kellhus an unreliable narrator when it comes to metaphysics, then we have literally no revelations. Nothing is known. Same goes for the Dunsult.

But yes, you're right. I would still trust Kellhus more because his starting position was rational, though it's a moot point.

Psatma literally states that she worships a demon when pressed by Meppa.
This is not at all how I see what happens in the scene you refer to. Meppa calls Yatwer a demon (not Ciphrang). It's completely in line with his beliefs, since he is one of the Cishaurim (whose views on Ciphrang are unknown). Psatma taunts Meppa by accepting his terminology, which she then twists for the sake of psychological warfare.

I'm not sure I understand your point here.  Yes, it's reasonable to assume Kellhus knows more about the metaphysics of Earwa than anybody else, but what does that have to do with how and what the people of Earwa think about Ciphrang?
My point is, their views and Kellhus's cannot be collated to form a united perspective. Just one of the simplest things as an example. When Kellhus refers to himself in the Outside as Hunger, he might easily mean that he is going to become a God, not Ciphrang. It's completely consistent with his terminology, but not consistent with the traditional one. The traditional terminology would mean that his plan is to become a Ciphrang, since the Gods are an entirely different thing.

Perhaps they're wrong in believing Ciphrang to be hungers
Not so much plainly and strictly wrong as being less coherent and using less consistent terminology than Kellhus because of their religious views.
Title: Re: Serwa seen with the Judging Eye
Post by: Jabberwock03 on June 14, 2018, 06:29:55 pm
I see the thread derailed a little, but to answer OP :

I think intention is the main cause for her Ciphrang condition.

Because she is Dunyain, she is damned by default. Then she use metagnostic which damn her even more.
So that's already huge for the damnation part.

But, in contrary to her father, she is part Esme/human and have a heart (she does actually love). Where Kellhus is like a robot, and do horrible stuff but with no intentions (it's just the shortest path), she have to mean all the horrible stuffs she does. And that's why she is view as a deamon and not just damned... damned a lot!
Plus I tend to think that the mere possibility of what she's capable of is enough to "Ciphrangize" her even more. Like she knows she is capable of, let's say, killing an entire country to achieve her ends ; and as she has to intend it to happens...

And that would explain why Kosoter or CnaÔur are viewed as Ciphrang too (they will to do bad). But Nil'Giccas is just damned because he kind of is a good guy (non-guy?) but practiced sooooo much sorcery.

tl;dr
Good guy doing bad stuff/sorcery ==> damned
Bad guy doing bad stuff (with or without sorcery) ==> Ciphrang
Special mention to Kellhus: Neither good or bad, just acting zombie following circumstances ==> who knows?
Title: Re: Serwa seen with the Judging Eye
Post by: TLEILAXU on June 14, 2018, 11:09:31 pm
Could be clues on the "equation" of salvation/damnation can be learned from the Mimarra/Koringhus exchange. He's damned in the eye and then after a time, he's not. What did he do to "earn" salvation back? He refrained from murdering her. And she forgave him. Was it the change in direction or lack of the act that saved him, both or neither? Does Mimarra ( the Eye? ) have the ability to save people? Questions ...
His realization that humanity, ignorance etc. is Holy and his leap of faith.
So when he grasps that understanding, he's saved, is what your saying - you can't force yourself to become ignorant, not that fast at least.
Not so much his understanding itself, but more his acceptance of what had to be done.
Title: Re: Serwa seen with the Judging Eye
Post by: TheCulminatingApe on June 16, 2018, 12:32:57 pm
Damned because of how she uses Moenghus?

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