The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => General Earwa => Topic started by: Swayal Serpent on June 01, 2018, 07:21:35 am

Title: [TUC Spoiler] Esmenet and the JE
Post by: Swayal Serpent on June 01, 2018, 07:21:35 am
Sorry if this has been brought up before, but I haven't seen much about it. After finishing a reread of TUC I remembered that Esmi is not damned according to TJE. Why in the world would she not be damned? She's done some horrible things, and Yatwer wanted her dead too. The only reasons I can think of would be that either Mimara's forgiveness saved her, or her hatred of Kellhus changed Yatwers mind. Both seem like weak theories, but I can't see any other reason she wouldn't be damned

Sent from my SM-J327T using Tapatalk

Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] Esmenet and the JE
Post by: TLEILAXU on June 01, 2018, 11:04:54 am
Yatwer didn't want her dead. IIRC she was prepared to throw a chorae at Kellhus during the end of TGO.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] Esmenet and the JE
Post by: Swayal Serpent on June 01, 2018, 12:47:38 pm
Yatwer didn't want her dead. IIRC she was prepared to throw a chorae at Kellhus during the end of TGO.
I'll have to go back and check to make sure, but there were multiple times that the WLW "saw himself" killing Esmenet. Im on the road so I don't have any physical copies with me, but I'm positive that Issiral was going to kill Esmenet too. As for the chorae, that whole seen was a bit confusing. I thought the walls of the palace had chorae built inside of them, and the earthquake causes one to nearly hit Kellhus

Sent from my SM-J327T using Tapatalk

Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] Esmenet and the JE
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on June 01, 2018, 01:14:26 pm
Sorry if this has been brought up before, but I haven't seen much about it. After finishing a reread of TUC I remembered that Esmi is not damned according to TJE. Why in the world would she not be damned? She's done some horrible things, and Yatwer wanted her dead too. The only reasons I can think of would be that either Mimara's forgiveness saved her, or her hatred of Kellhus changed Yatwers mind. Both seem like weak theories, but I can't see any other reason she wouldn't be damned

First of all, I'm just going to point out that (as far as we know for now) the Judging Eye, despite being associated with pregnant women, is not linked to Yatwer. The Judging Eye is supposedly the point of view of the God (not one of the Gods).
Now, why is Esmenet saved? That is a great question, and one we don't know the answer to. Like you said, she is no innocent - the massacre of innocents in Carythusal when Mimara was found particularly stands out. There are many theories why Esmenet is saved (or seems to be from the JE's perspective, in the very least), but yes, nothing has been denied or confirmed here. I'll let everyone who has good explanations weight in, I can't really come up with a decent theory of my own here.


Yatwer didn't want her dead. IIRC she was prepared to throw a chorae at Kellhus during the end of TGO.

TLEILAXU is right here, Yatwer's target was Kellhus. Esmenet (or any of their children for that matter) were just collateral damage. Esmenet made a deal with Yatwer's own White-Luck Warrior to kill her husband (who only survived because Kelmomas' sudden appearance interfered with the WLW, with Kelmomas being invisible to the Gods and all).


I'll have to go back and check to make sure, but there were multiple times that the WLW "saw himself" killing Esmenet. Im on the road so I don't have any physical copies with me, but I'm positive that Issiral was going to kill Esmenet too. As for the chorae, that whole seen was a bit confusing. I thought the walls of the palace had chorae built inside of them, and the earthquake causes one to nearly hit Kellhus

I think it's more along the lines that the WLW saw Esmenet dead, not that he killed/would kill her himself. I always assumed he saw her dying in the collapse of the Andiamine Heights during the earthquake (you know, like Thelli - the WLW didn't kill her either, not directly at least). Kelmomas' interference caused both Kellhus and Esmenet to survive that moment.
As for the Chorae, I don't remember the details...might need to reread that part.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] Esmenet and the JE
Post by: H on June 01, 2018, 02:16:57 pm
I need to give this more though and to look more into in along the reread, but the Cubit really does care about ignorance as a key tenant.  I believe, if I remember correctly, that Kellhus purposely keeps Esmenet ignorant of a number of things to protect her.  And he was right to do so.

Also, I'm not sure that Yatwer's favor, or disfavor, can transgress The Cubit.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] Esmenet and the JE
Post by: Swayal Serpent on June 01, 2018, 03:03:14 pm

Yatwer didn't want her dead. IIRC she was prepared to throw a chorae at Kellhus during the end of TGO.

TLEILAXU is right here, Yatwer's target was Kellhus. Esmenet (or any of their children for that matter) were just collateral damage. Esmenet made a deal with Yatwer's own White-Luck Warrior to kill her husband (who only survived because Kelmomas' sudden appearance interfered with the WLW, with Kelmomas being invisible to the Gods and all).


I'll have to go back and check to make sure, but there were multiple times that the WLW "saw himself" killing Esmenet. Im on the road so I don't have any physical copies with me, but I'm positive that Issiral was going to kill Esmenet too. As for the chorae, that whole seen was a bit confusing. I thought the walls of the palace had chorae built inside of them, and the earthquake causes one to nearly hit Kellhus

I think it's more along the lines that the WLW saw Esmenet dead, not that he killed/would kill her himself. I always assumed he saw her dying in the collapse of the Andiamine Heights during the earthquake (you know, like Thelli - the WLW didn't kill her either, not directly at least). Kelmomas' interference caused both Kellhus and Esmenet to survive that moment.

Oh I see what your saying. It's very difficult to tell what's going on in Issiral's head. And I suppose Yatwer might not have anything to do with TJE in the first place

Sent from my SM-J327T using Tapatalk

Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] Esmenet and the JE
Post by: MSJ on June 01, 2018, 07:07:17 pm
Quote from:  H
I need to give this more though and to look more into in along the reread, but the Cubit really does care about ignorance as a key tenant.  I believe, if I remember correctly, that Kellhus purposely keeps Esmenet ignorant of a number of things to protect her.  And he was right to do so.

Also, I'm not sure that Yatwer's favor, or disfavor, can transgress The Cubit.

To the bold, you're correct. We see throughout the series several times that ignorance is holy. But, the real proof lie in what Koringhus tells us right before his leap.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] Esmenet and the JE
Post by: H on June 04, 2018, 11:54:10 am
To the bold, you're correct. We see throughout the series several times that ignorance is holy. But, the real proof lie in what Koringhus tells us right before his leap.

Yeah, Koringhus tells us a lot of important information about the Cubit, but it's hard to make out some of it, because he is literally insane at that point.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] Esmenet and the JE
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on June 04, 2018, 06:48:31 pm
I need to give this more though and to look more into in along the reread, but the Cubit really does care about ignorance as a key tenant.  I believe, if I remember correctly, that Kellhus purposely keeps Esmenet ignorant of a number of things to protect her.  And he was right to do so.

Also, I'm not sure that Yatwer's favor, or disfavor, can transgress The Cubit.

I remember that, I just didn't go into more detail because a) it hasn't been fully confirmed (not that many things get a clear-cut explanation in this series, but you get what I mean) and b) I also want to "save" it for a more detailed discussion/analysis later on (it will be a while before the current forum reread reaches TGO, though).

Agree with you on Yatwer, though I wouldn't completely exclude a connection between her and the Judging Eye, because of its link to pregnant women and stillbirths. We have no evidence of this (and I don't think we will, with Yatwer effectively out of the picture during the Second Apocalypse), but it's not that implausible to me.


Oh I see what your saying. It's very difficult to tell what's going on in Issiral's head. And I suppose Yatwer might not have anything to do with TJE in the first place

Issiral's POV can be quite confusing. I had to reread specific passages to get a better picture of what happened at the end of TGO, and I'm still missing some details there.

Like I said in my reply to H above, while we have no reason to think Yatwer has a connection to the Judging Eye, it doesn't mean that there isn't one. Yatwer just has no impact on whether Mimara would see Esmenet (or anyone else) as saved.


To the bold, you're correct. We see throughout the series several times that ignorance is holy. But, the real proof lie in what Koringhus tells us right before his leap.

Yeah, Koringhus tells us a lot of important information about the Cubit, but it's hard to make out some of it, because he is literally insane at that point.

A detailed reread of the chapters Koringhus appears in is needed, at least in my case. Not sure if I'm going to wait for the forum reread to get there (the TGO reread will take place approximately between January and May 2020 by my calculations)...but then again, it's likely that we won't yet have a new book to discuss by the time it ends, so why not?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] Esmenet and the JE
Post by: Swayal Serpent on June 04, 2018, 06:57:45 pm
Quote from:  H
I need to give this more though and to look more into in along the reread, but the Cubit really does care about ignorance as a key tenant.  I believe, if I remember correctly, that Kellhus purposely keeps Esmenet ignorant of a number of things to protect her.  And he was right to do so.

Also, I'm not sure that Yatwer's favor, or disfavor, can transgress The Cubit.

To the bold, you're correct. We see throughout the series several times that ignorance is holy. But, the real proof lie in what Koringhus tells us right before his leap.
I believe there is a Bakker quote somewhere that says something along the lines of "Serwe is a cipher for the morality of the series." At the time, I took it to mean that Serwe was right about Kellhus being a prophet, but in light of recent revelations, it would make more sense that he was referring to her innocence and ignorance. I wonder what mimara would see if she saw Serwe with TJE

Sent from my SM-J327T using Tapatalk

Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] Esmenet and the JE
Post by: MSJ on June 04, 2018, 07:12:13 pm
Quote from:  SwayaliSerpent
I believe there is a Bakker quote somewhere that says something along the lines of "Serwe is a cipher for the morality of the series." At the time, I took it to mean that Serwe was right about Kellhus being a prophet, but in light of recent revelations, it would make more sense that he was referring to her innocence and ignorance. I wonder what mimara would see if she saw Serwe with TJE?

Yep, we went over that quite thoroughly in our last reread.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] Esmenet and the JE
Post by: TLEILAXU on June 04, 2018, 09:53:33 pm
Quote from:  H
I need to give this more though and to look more into in along the reread, but the Cubit really does care about ignorance as a key tenant.  I believe, if I remember correctly, that Kellhus purposely keeps Esmenet ignorant of a number of things to protect her.  And he was right to do so.

Also, I'm not sure that Yatwer's favor, or disfavor, can transgress The Cubit.

To the bold, you're correct. We see throughout the series several times that ignorance is holy. But, the real proof lie in what Koringhus tells us right before his leap.
I believe there is a Bakker quote somewhere that says something along the lines of "Serwe is a cipher for the morality of the series." At the time, I took it to mean that Serwe was right about Kellhus being a prophet, but in light of recent revelations, it would make more sense that he was referring to her innocence and ignorance. I wonder what mimara would see if she saw Serwe with TJE

Sent from my SM-J327T using Tapatalk
I'm inclined to believe she would see what Kellhus told Proyas. Damnation.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] Esmenet and the JE
Post by: MSJ on June 04, 2018, 10:00:04 pm
Quote from:  TLEILAXU
I'm inclined to believe she would see what Kellhus told Proyas. Damnation.

Think so?

We can point to many cases where Kellhus is wrong...all throughout the series. Hell, @Locke has a great thread around here pointing out all such instances. I tend to believe that the "common" people got it right and revere her as a holy figure...
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] Esmenet and the JE
Post by: Swayal Serpent on June 04, 2018, 10:04:33 pm
Quote from:  H
I need to give this more though and to look more into in along the reread, but the Cubit really does care about ignorance as a key tenant.  I believe, if I remember correctly, that Kellhus purposely keeps Esmenet ignorant of a number of things to protect her.  And he was right to do so.

Also, I'm not sure that Yatwer's favor, or disfavor, can transgress The Cubit.

To the bold, you're correct. We see throughout the series several times that ignorance is holy. But, the real proof lie in what Koringhus tells us right before his leap.
I believe there is a Bakker quote somewhere that says something along the lines of "Serwe is a cipher for the morality of the series." At the time, I took it to mean that Serwe was right about Kellhus being a prophet, but in light of recent revelations, it would make more sense that he was referring to her innocence and ignorance. I wonder what mimara would see if she saw Serwe with TJE

Sent from my SM-J327T using Tapatalk
I'm inclined to believe she would see what Kellhus told Proyas. Damnation.
Ah yes, I forgot about that. Although it is possible that Kellhus only said that to condition Proyas. He needed to turn Proyas into an unbeliever, and telling him Serwe is damned would be a good way to cement Proyas' disbelief

Sent from my SM-J327T using Tapatalk

Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] Esmenet and the JE
Post by: SmilerLoki on June 04, 2018, 10:09:44 pm
(and I don't think we will, with Yatwer effectively out of the picture during the Second Apocalypse)
I would like to know why many people think that the Gods are out of the picture while the No-God is active. They are not at all out of anything, they just can't act against the No-God effectively (they can still wreak havoc for other reasons, for example). The faculties of the Gods are impaired by the System, but they are not completely nullified until the world is successfully shut.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] Esmenet and the JE
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on June 04, 2018, 10:14:20 pm
I believe there is a Bakker quote somewhere that says something along the lines of "Serwe is a cipher for the morality of the series." At the time, I took it to mean that Serwe was right about Kellhus being a prophet, but in light of recent revelations, it would make more sense that he was referring to her innocence and ignorance. I wonder what mimara would see if she saw Serwe with TJE

At the risk of derailing the thread (though maybe not, as this is still about the JE), you have no idea how much I've wished Mimara (or someone else with the Eye) had been a POV during PON ever since we started the forum reread. Even considering Mimara can only look at so many people with the JE, I'd still be very, very curious to see how she would have seen characters such as Serwë or Conphas, or even characters she actually saw during TAE (Cnaiür, Esmenet...) to see if a particular person is always seen the same way through the JE. I actually brought up this last particular point in the Quorum the other day. I think it could ultimately work one of two ways: a) as the God is outside of time, any particular person would always look the same when seen by the JE at any point in their life (as their life "would have already been lived" in the eyes of the God); b) the God is outside of time, but the person with the JE is human, and so that "warps" what they see, which can change with time. There are just so many possibilities...


Yep, we went over that quite thoroughly in our last reread.

Probably something that merits further discussion when it comes up in this new reread...


I'm inclined to believe she would see what Kellhus told Proyas. Damnation.

Think so?

We can point to many cases where Kellhus is wrong...all throughout the series. Hell, @Locke has a great thread around here pointing out all such instances. I tend to believe that the "common" people got it right and revere her as a holy figure...

I'm not so sure she would be damned either. I mean, she could be (I could see reasoning for both damnation and salvation), but I agree with MSJ in that we should take Kellhus' opinions with a grain of salt (heh).


Ah yes, I forgot about that. Although it is possible that Kellhus only said that to condition Proyas. He needed to turn Proyas into an unbeliever, and telling him Serwe is damned would be a good way to cement Proyas' disbelief

This is a very plausible possibility.


I would like to know why many people think that the Gods are out of the picture while the No-God is active. They are not at all out of anything, they just can't act against the No-God effectively (they can still wreak havoc for other reasons, for example). The faculties of the Gods are impaired by the System, but they are not completely nullified until the world is successfully shut.

They aren't completely nullified, sure, but their role in the story becomes much more limited after the rise of the No-God. I would be surprised if they happened to have as much of an influence in the story in TNG as they did in TAE (with the exception of Ajokli, perhaps).
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] Esmenet and the JE
Post by: Swayal Serpent on June 04, 2018, 10:15:32 pm


Quote from:  SwayaliSerpent
I believe there is a Bakker quote somewhere that says something along the lines of "Serwe is a cipher for the morality of the series." At the time, I took it to mean that Serwe was right about Kellhus being a prophet, but in light of recent revelations, it would make more sense that he was referring to her innocence and ignorance. I wonder what mimara would see if she saw Serwe with TJE?

Yep, we went over that quite thoroughly in our last reread.

Oh ok, sorry if I've been bringing up old topics. I drive trucks cross country, so I've been listening to the audiobooks lately. It's tough to analyze when your driving a big rig lol

Sent from my SM-J327T using Tapatalk

Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] Esmenet and the JE
Post by: MSJ on June 04, 2018, 10:19:31 pm
Didnt mean to cut your speculation off, just was pointing you to some good convo on the subject. But, yes, Bakker said Serwe was a cipher and it hits home with Koringhus's revelations, so to say.

ETA: it might have not been in the reread, but in TGO's ARC(advanced reading copy) discussion.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] Esmenet and the JE
Post by: SmilerLoki on June 04, 2018, 10:20:09 pm
They aren't completely nullified, sure, but their role in the story becomes much more limited after the rise of the No-God. I would be surprised if they happened to have as much of an influence in the story in TNG as they did in TAE (with the exception of Ajokli, perhaps).
This is a pretty big exception, though. And there are just so many ways to weave the Gods into the narrative that I have serious doubts they won't play a notable role.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] Esmenet and the JE
Post by: Swayal Serpent on June 04, 2018, 10:25:12 pm
Didnt mean to cut your speculation off, just was pointing you to some good convo on the subject. But, yes, Bakker said Serwe was a cipher and it hits home with Koringhus's revelations, so to say.
Well thank you for the reccomendation. I didn't know there was a community re read going on, I'll check out that topic

Sent from my SM-J327T using Tapatalk

Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] Esmenet and the JE
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on June 04, 2018, 10:27:45 pm
Oh ok, sorry if I've been bringing up old topics. I drive trucks cross country, so I've been listening to the audiobooks lately. It's tough to analyze when your driving a big rig lol

There's still much to discuss on this particular topic, though, so by all means carry on. ;) I wasn't around when most of the Serwë discussion took place either, so I think there's always a chance one or more of us can come up with something new here.


This is a pretty big exception, though. And there are just so many ways to weave the Gods into the narrative that I have serious doubts they won't play a notable role.

Alright, I admit that it is (Ajokli is always a notable exception when compared to the other Gods, anyway). That was mostly my opinion on the Gods' roles in TNG, I might end up being completely mistaken on that. :)
I feel confident that Yatwer is probably not going to get heavily involved, though. She had her role to play in TAE, and as the Mother of Birth, her influence likely won't be felt for quite a while in-universe (again, just my opinion).
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] Esmenet and the JE
Post by: MSJ on June 04, 2018, 10:28:55 pm
Quote from:  SmilerLoki
I would like to know why many people think that the Gods are out of the picture while the No-God is active. They are not at all out of anything, they just can't act against the No-God effectively (they can still wreak havoc for other reasons, for example). The faculties of the Gods are impaired by the System, but they are not completely nullified until the world is successfully shut.

Me too. Its always baffled me that so many seem to think them mute. I agree they might not have as big a role (I tend to think Kellhus will fill most of that vacuum.), but they'll certainly still be in play.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] Esmenet and the JE
Post by: MSJ on June 04, 2018, 10:51:32 pm
Here's the passage from TGO where Koringhus defined the Cubit, or rather what made the Cubit approve. If its not a tee-total definition of Serwe, I dont know what is. You can go before and after this passage and see once he deduced this, then the Cubit (Eye) approved of him.

Quote
And so it was with the Absolute. Surrender. Forfeiture. Loss … At last he understood what made these things holy. Loss was advantage. Blindness was insight, revelation. At last he could see it—the sideways step that gave lie to Logos.
Zero. Zero made One.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] Esmenet and the JE
Post by: TaoHorror on June 05, 2018, 01:54:49 am
Here's the passage from TGO where Koringhus defined the Cubit, or rather what made the Cubit approve. If its not a tee-total definition of Serwe, I dont know what is. You can go before and after this passage and see once he deduced this, then the Cubit (Eye) approved of him.

Quote
And so it was with the Absolute. Surrender. Forfeiture. Loss … At last he understood what made these things holy. Loss was advantage. Blindness was insight, revelation. At last he could see it—the sideways step that gave lie to Logos.
Zero. Zero made One.

( scratching my head ) ... so accepting ignorance as holy and being ignorant is equivalent to the Cubit? Getting why ignorance saves the soul saves those who gain this insight as well?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] Esmenet and the JE
Post by: MSJ on June 05, 2018, 02:56:05 am
Its not equal to the Cubit, it what the Eye, the view of the God, finds holy. Blindness, equals ignorance. Surrender...forfeit, those are synonyms with innocence. That's why Kornghus was found saved in the very next scene. You have to read it all to get the gist, I'm not quoting a half a chapter...

And yea, its why Kellhus keeps Esme ignorant of what he does. Finds her pure, calls her the World. He knows its what saves you, and when Mimara looks on Esme, well, she's saved right?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] Esmenet and the JE
Post by: MSJ on June 05, 2018, 03:16:44 am
Ok, ill go a little more in depth so...(you're not scratching your head). ;)

A paragraph or two before that quote is this one. And, you have to know the Eye is open watching Koringhus through all of this.

Quote
The Survivor drew a sleeve across his hideousness, looked to him, his son. The Legion-within howled and clamoured, stamped and spit. Only now did he understand …
Ignorance. Only ignorance had sealed the interval between them. Only blindness, the wilful idiocy that was worldborn love.

Then directly after my first quote, scene cut, then this.

Quote
The Eye watches. Approves.

Now, remember before all of this Koringhus and every other Dûnyain is damned by the Eye. So, this is proof that whatever watches from Mimara, the Eye, the Cubit, the God, whatever you wanna call it, offers salvation. Koringhus went from damned to being approved, by Just understanding the Eye/Cubit. Its proof in my book, Qirri high or no...

ETA: in my book, Koringhus sees farther than Kellhus. Can see its his only chance at salvation, and makes the leap...the leap, that is his.

ETAA: not only understanding. The Eye sees that he loves his son, also. He has a heart, isn't just a ruthless Dûnyain. Take in the whole chapter: Demua Mountains, TGO and you'll get a better grasp at what happens.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] Esmenet and the JE
Post by: MSJ on June 05, 2018, 04:05:40 am
Just reread that whole chapter. Great f'n chapter. I love how Akka reacts after the Leap. Funny. He says to Mimara, "I told you, I told you not to give him any!". Then, grumpy with Mimara he answers the Boy about which way they go, and says, "That way Boy....The world ends that way!" Humour mixed with foreshadowing, good stuff.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] Esmenet and the JE
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on June 05, 2018, 08:38:47 pm
And yea, its why Kellhus keeps Esme ignorant of what he does. Finds her pure, calls her the World. He knows its what saves you, and when Mimara looks on Esme, well, she's saved right?

I thought Serwë was the one referred to as "the World", was Esmenet ever called this? I honestly can't remember...


Ok, ill go a little more in depth so...(you're not scratching your head). ;)

A paragraph or two before that quote is this one. And, you have to know the Eye is open watching Koringhus through all of this.

Quote
The Survivor drew a sleeve across his hideousness, looked to him, his son. The Legion-within howled and clamoured, stamped and spit. Only now did he understand …
Ignorance. Only ignorance had sealed the interval between them. Only blindness, the wilful idiocy that was worldborn love.

Then directly after my first quote, scene cut, then this.

Quote
The Eye watches. Approves.

Now, remember before all of this Koringhus and every other Dûnyain is damned by the Eye. So, this is proof that whatever watches from Mimara, the Eye, the Cubit, the God, whatever you wanna call it, offers salvation. Koringhus went from damned to being approved, by Just understanding the Eye/Cubit. Its proof in my book, Qirri high or no...

ETA: in my book, Koringhus sees farther than Kellhus. Can see its his only chance at salvation, and makes the leap...the leap, that is his.

ETAA: not only understanding. The Eye sees that he loves his son, also. He has a heart, isn't just a ruthless Dûnyain. Take in the whole chapter: Demua Mountains, TGO and you'll get a better grasp at what happens.

I had completely forgotten that the JE had "approved" of Koringhus' realization. Then we do have proof that X person seen with it can appear different over time, change from regular damnation to "Ciphrang-level", from damned to saved, etc.
It's very tragic and yet heartwarming, Koringhus sees he has now been redeemed from the "Dûnyain original sin" and chooses to end his life right there, before he slips back into the damnation of his ancestors. He really is such a great character, even if he's just around for a couple of chapters.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] Esmenet and the JE
Post by: MSJ on June 05, 2018, 08:46:20 pm
Quote from:  ThoughtsofThelli
I thought Serwë was the one referred to as "the World", was Esmenet ever called this? I honestly can't remember...

I thought something to that effect, or close enough, at the beginning of TUC...
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] Esmenet and the JE
Post by: MSJ on June 05, 2018, 09:04:20 pm
Quote from:  ThoughtsofThelli
I had completely forgotten that the JE had "approved" of Koringhus' realization. Then we do have proof that X person seen with it can appear different over time, change from regular damnation to "Ciphrang-level", from damned to saved, etc.
It's very tragic and yet heartwarming, Koringhus sees he has now been redeemed from the "Dûnyain original sin" and chooses to end his life right there, before he slips back into the damnation of his ancestors. He really is such a great character, even if he's just around for a couple of chapters.

Did you reread the chapter? There are some really great quotes in that chapter, can't wait 2 years til we get there!! You got the "99 stones and the type of birds he killed", which I think an allegory for the series in some way. And, "The Heaper of the Dead", which really got a shock from everyone. Overall, just jammed packed of good nuggets, like, I thought, everything in TGO.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] Esmenet and the JE
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on June 05, 2018, 11:05:55 pm
I thought something to that effect, or close enough, at the beginning of TUC...

I'll see if I can find it when I'm a bit more clear-headed (it's getting kind of late over here). ;)


Did you reread the chapter? There are some really great quotes in that chapter, can't wait 2 years til we get there!! You got the "99 stones and the type of birds he killed", which I think an allegory for the series in some way. And, "The Heaper of the Dead", which really got a shock from everyone. Overall, just jammed packed of good nuggets, like, I thought, everything in TGO.

Sadly, I didn't (yet), I was going on from your comments/quotes and what I remember from that chapter. I'm trying to resist skipping ahead in the reread and try to keep it at the 1 chapter/week pace, but TGO is so far away I might just have to reread it. (I'll probably have forgotten everything again by the time TGO comes along in the reread. :P)
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] Esmenet and the JE
Post by: MSJ on June 05, 2018, 11:13:53 pm
Quote
Not even just the Amiolas, all of them, apparently! Which is intriguing, to say the least.

I don't remember the quote, thank you. Interesting.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] Esmenet and the JE
Post by: TLEILAXU on June 06, 2018, 12:07:29 am
Here's the passage from TGO where Koringhus defined the Cubit, or rather what made the Cubit approve. If its not a tee-total definition of Serwe, I dont know what is. You can go before and after this passage and see once he deduced this, then the Cubit (Eye) approved of him.

Quote
And so it was with the Absolute. Surrender. Forfeiture. Loss … At last he understood what made these things holy. Loss was advantage. Blindness was insight, revelation. At last he could see it—the sideways step that gave lie to Logos.
Zero. Zero made One.
Beautiful chapter really. Loss is holy.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] Esmenet and the JE
Post by: MSJ on June 06, 2018, 06:28:00 am
Quote from: TLEILAXU
Beautiful chapter really. Loss is holy.

👍
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] Esmenet and the JE
Post by: SmilerLoki on June 08, 2018, 06:08:03 pm
This thread really made me wonder if being taken in by one of the Gods after death qualifies as "saved" for the Judging Eye.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] Esmenet and the JE
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on June 08, 2018, 06:58:26 pm
This thread really made me wonder if being taken in by one of the Gods after death qualifies as "saved" for the Judging Eye.

I wonder if there is a middle ground between "damned" and "saved" (or a different category altogether?), because it would make sense in the cases of those people taken to specific Gods' corners of the Outside.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] Esmenet and the JE
Post by: TLEILAXU on June 09, 2018, 12:13:46 am
This thread really made me wonder if being taken in by one of the Gods after death qualifies as "saved" for the Judging Eye.
Saved, no doubt. It's a human subroutine, recall. You'll spend eternity in your Mother's warm arms etc.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] Esmenet and the JE
Post by: SmilerLoki on June 09, 2018, 04:59:35 pm
This thread really made me wonder if being taken in by one of the Gods after death qualifies as "saved" for the Judging Eye.
Saved, no doubt. It's a human subroutine, recall. You'll spend eternity in your Mother's warm arms etc.
That clashes with the fact that some people in the Ordeal are saved by the Gods while Mimara sees them all as damned. Now, she might not have seen those saved, since she has just one pair of eyes, but the workings of damnation and salvation are still very unclear.

Also, this is in part where my doubt comes from. The Gods are connected to humanity. What about the God, who allegedly is behind the Judging Eye?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoiler] Esmenet and the JE
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on June 09, 2018, 06:15:23 pm
This thread really made me wonder if being taken in by one of the Gods after death qualifies as "saved" for the Judging Eye.
Saved, no doubt. It's a human subroutine, recall. You'll spend eternity in your Mother's warm arms etc.
That clashes with the fact that some people in the Ordeal are saved by the Gods while Mimara sees them all as damned. Now, she might not have seen those saved, since she has just one pair of eyes, but the workings of damnation and salvation are still very unclear.

Also, this is in part where my doubt comes from. The Gods are connected to humanity. What about the God, who allegedly is behind the Judging Eye?

If I remember correctly, Mimara never looked at any of the 2 people we know for sure were saved by particular Gods (Sorweel and Sosering Rauchurl, saved by Yatwer and Gilgaöl respectively) with the JE. I might be wrong, though? I don't think anyone else was specified as being saved by X God, they were just damned.

I don't think people saved by one of the Hundred would really count as "saved" either, that's why I think there might be a separate category altogether (or they're just a subset of damnation).

We shouldn't assume that Yatwer's corner of the Outside, for instance, is a pleasant heaven-like place, either. Yatwer, as the Mother of Birth, could embody the warm and loving aspect of a mother goddess but also the cruel, vengeful one (something directly addressed by Psatma Nannaferi in the books).