The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => General Earwa => Topic started by: TheCulminatingApe on March 31, 2019, 06:26:37 pm

Title: Inri Sejenus
Post by: TheCulminatingApe on March 31, 2019, 06:26:37 pm
We never learn much about Inri Sejenus, do we?  Which seems a little bit suspicious given that he's the series Jesus-analogue.

The Glossaries state that he was born c.2159 (note the c. - therefore his birth is ambiguous).  This is only four years after the defeat of the No-God at Mengedda (and could be less if he was born earlier), and overlaps with the life of Seswatha, who doesn't die until 2168.

Is Sejenus therefore a byproduct of the First Apocalypse - i.e. has his mission been imparted to him by a significant survivor/survivors/protagonist, or is he a totally independent occurrence?  We know he reinterprets the Tusk, and we also know that the Consult were responsible for 'editing' the Tusk prior to the Breaking of the Gates.  What's going on?

Inri also sounds similar to Inrau - which could just be coincidence, but Inrau does seem to have a 'holier' quality than the other characters.  A thematic link?
Title: Re: Inri Sejenus
Post by: TLEILAXU on March 31, 2019, 06:58:15 pm
We never learn much about Inri Sejenus, do we?  Which seems a little bit suspicious given that he's the series Jesus-analogue.

The Glossaries state that he was born c.2159 (note the c. - therefore his birth is ambiguous).  This is only four years after the defeat of the No-God at Mengedda (and could be less if he was born earlier), and overlaps with the life of Seswatha, who doesn't die until 2168.

Is Sejenus therefore a byproduct of the First Apocalypse - i.e. has his mission been imparted to him by a significant survivor/survivors/protagonist, or is he a totally independent occurrence?  We know he reinterprets the Tusk, and we also know that the Consult were responsible for 'editing' the Tusk prior to the Breaking of the Gates.  What's going on?

Inri also sounds similar to Inrau - which could just be coincidence, but Inrau does seem to have a 'holier' quality than the other characters.  A thematic link?
Maybe the first skin spy? I don't know, there definitely has to be some kind of Consult connection.
Title: Re: Inri Sejenus
Post by: Francis Buck's Crush on April 01, 2019, 09:41:54 am
Skin spies were only created before PoN startes by a few hundred years.
Title: Re: Inri Sejenus
Post by: Wilshire on April 01, 2019, 12:08:13 pm
Skin spies were only created before PoN startes by a few hundred years.
I think the books take places around 41xx year-of-the-tusk? And skin spies are said be like 300 years old, but I can't remember where we got that information from. Was it the Mandate that discovered one? Its possible they were around for a few hundered years before humans knew about them, but probably not another 500+ years.

So probably not skin-spies.
Title: Re: Inri Sejenus
Post by: TLEILAXU on April 01, 2019, 02:20:28 pm
Skin spies were only created before PoN startes by a few hundred years.
I think the books take places around 2800 year-of-the-tusk? And skin spies are said be like 300 years old, but I can't remember where we got that information from. Was it the Mandate that discovered one? Its possible they were around for a few hundered years before humans knew about them, but probably not another 500+ years.

So probably not skin-spies.
300 years was when the mandate stopped observing Consult agents. Skin spies must've been in the making a while before that though.
Title: Re: Inri Sejenus
Post by: Wilshire on April 01, 2019, 02:35:09 pm
Skin spies were only created before PoN startes by a few hundred years.
I think the books take places around 2800 year-of-the-tusk? And skin spies are said be like 300 years old, but I can't remember where we got that information from. Was it the Mandate that discovered one? Its possible they were around for a few hundered years before humans knew about them, but probably not another 500+ years.

So probably not skin-spies.
300 years was when the mandate stopped observing Consult agents. Skin spies must've been in the making a while before that though.
Ah, that's right. We infer their existence at least by the time the Consult disappear. Its totally unreasonable to assume the Consult left the world and just sent out their new toys to do the observation solo. So they must have been around prior to that - how much is tough to guess.

They obviously didn't want to keep exposing themselves and knew that the more they showed up, the more people would believe the Mandate, so they must have been pretty motivated to find a solution. Whenever it was they discovered/made the Skin Spies, they'd need some beta testing to work out the bugs. Hard to say if that period would have been 10 years, or 1000+ years.
Title: Re: Inri Sejenus
Post by: Madness on April 01, 2019, 03:33:33 pm
They were still openly sparring with Mangaecca (which actually doesn't seem possible as our understanding of the Consult progressed over the books) like 300 years before 41xx or whatever year it is the books start (as per a random thought by Achamian in TDTCB) - edit: I based much of my first fan fiction on that exact paragraph with some assists from ZTS comments by Bakker.

I believe Inri Sejenus is born five years after the 11 Years of the Crib (the No-God's first advent).

Always been interesting thoughts about Sejenus. You'd imagine that any religion or philosophy of Earwa would have to engage and digest the fact that some kind of thing stopped birth for 11 years and that the clergy of the time felt that the Gods had abandoned Humankind. Something something the Gods punished us for our transgressions with the Apocalypse, etc, etc.

You have to imagine that the Kiunniat (sp?) tradition was ripe for reinterpretation whether there's something nefarious about Sejenus or not.

Title: Re: Inri Sejenus
Post by: Francis Buck on April 11, 2019, 05:09:45 am
I actually lean toward the "Inri was legit" side of things more than Consult trickery. I think there are actually divine messengers and prophets and stuff, I just think they're intentionally shrouded in mystery (for now, probably forever, but maybe not).

(But probably forever).
Title: Re: Inri Sejenus
Post by: Simas Polchias on April 12, 2019, 04:42:50 pm
Is it my false memory or Sejenus really ascended alive to the Nail of Heaven?
Title: Re: Inri Sejenus
Post by: Madness on April 12, 2019, 05:17:45 pm
Not false.

In-text Inrithism believes Sejenus ascended to the Nail from the Juterum (sp?) in Shimeh while, I believe, TTT Glossary suggests that he actually ascended somewhere in ruined Kyudea. Neither debate the ascension.
Title: Re: Inri Sejenus
Post by: H on April 23, 2019, 05:56:08 pm
Not false.

In-text Inrithism believes Sejenus ascended to the Nail from the Juterum (sp?) in Shimeh while, I believe, TTT Glossary suggests that he actually ascended somewhere in ruined Kyudea. Neither debate the ascension.

Of course there is no clear idea what "ascension" even means though.

I think the parallel is meant to be sort of direct to Jesus.  That is, a "prophet" who's "existence" and "essence" are necessarily confounded within the dual context of history and religious interpretation.
Title: Re: Inri Sejenus
Post by: themerchant on April 24, 2019, 12:34:27 pm
Not false.

In-text Inrithism believes Sejenus ascended to the Nail from the Juterum (sp?) in Shimeh while, I believe, TTT Glossary suggests that he actually ascended somewhere in ruined Kyudea. Neither debate the ascension.

The tractate is said to imply it was Kyudea. Going from memory.
Title: Re: Inri Sejenus
Post by: Wilshire on June 10, 2019, 03:34:09 pm
We learn of Inri early on, during which we are less likely to interpret him as a true religious figure. We don't really lean of the gods and such until later - its really not until TJE where we get the first confirmation that gods are real.

So we are likely primed to believe he's not divine.

Given the actual existence of Gods and the state of the world post-Apocalypse, it seems more likely that he was "real". Either an actual Avatar of one of the gods, or simply one of their chosen. I can't remember what exactly he reinterpreted, but that might give us a clue as to which God or Gods he was a favorite of.

Regarding Ascension, it does seem strange there are 2 areas debated to be the ascension point. That echos of religious/human debates (like whatever Church wanting it to be Our city, not Their city). It actually happening seems as likely as any other God Touched thing in Earwa. They seem to have an awful lot of agency when they want, and something like a Holy White Light lifting a person up into the Heavens and discorporating seems like something the Gods might be interested in - even if it took a joint effort to put on a show. They feed on devotion and belief, and such a feat would definitely make some hardcore believers in the "Divine".
Title: Re: Inri Sejenus
Post by: stuslayer on June 17, 2019, 03:33:00 pm
AFAIUI, The Nail of Heaven is intimated to be related to the arrival of the Inchoroi, so the idea that Inri ascends to the Nail of Heaven to my mind connects him directly to them and thus reinforces the premise that the Tusk is a tool to control and manipulate Men.
Title: Re: Inri Sejenus
Post by: Wilshire on June 17, 2019, 03:52:59 pm
I wish I knew what Bakker was driving at with Wert's History of Earwa. That the Nail is relatively new, astrologically speaking, seems to be significant... But there's no way to really ferret out why.
Title: Re: Inri Sejenus
Post by: SmilerLoki on June 17, 2019, 04:01:10 pm
I wish I knew what Bakker was driving at with Wert's History of Earwa. That the Nail is relatively new, astrologically speaking, seems to be significant... But there's no way to really ferret out why.
Yeah, it seems to be really, really vague, intentionally so. And correlation isn't causality.
Title: Re: Inri Sejenus
Post by: stuslayer on June 17, 2019, 04:21:35 pm
Inri's birth date being so vague is another pointer to me, that he was an Inchie plant. Given that there are a number of other historical figures from the period whose dates are well known, the fact that Inri is a rough date from around the end of the Years of the Crib is suspicious, and suggests that he was inserted by the Consult following the NG's failure, which prompted a new strategy from the Consult, to control from behind the veil rather than outright confrontation.

On another point, it has been mentioned elsewhere hasn't it, that the Nail arrived a short while before the arrival of the Inchies? Thought I'd read that somewhere. Perhaps the Nail is a mothership and the Ark was only a drone, being monitored from afar, and in actual fact the failure of Ark will prompt a further intervention from the mothership...
Title: Re: Inri Sejenus
Post by: Wilshire on June 17, 2019, 04:31:38 pm
Yeah its in Wert's History of Earwa that mentions the arrival of the Inchoroi, preceded by a huge blast (before the ark crashed down), which itself was preceded by the Nail appearing.

Inri came from humble origins though, during a time of relative chaos, so its not unlikely that his exact birth date is not known.

Unfortunately, the Inchoroi having access to whatever the Nail is so recently would not make much sense. There's just no way only a few thousands years ago the Inchoroi could call down either a laser strike or a teleportation beam, or even simply a spotlight, from something in geostationary orbit above Earwa.

But just because it appears to have originated from the Nail doesn't mean it did. I think some airborne Gnostic Cants might have made things appear like a person was ascending into heaven. A simple Bar of Heaven creates a beam of light from the ground to the sky. Another Cant cast within the light be be rather obscured, to where a flying Inchoroi could vaporize the body within...

I'm not sure that's any more or less likely that Inri going full Jesus and ascending into the Heavens to sit at the right hand(s) of Whatever God(s). Neither explanation is satisfactory to me.

Title: Re: Inri Sejenus
Post by: stuslayer on June 17, 2019, 04:37:08 pm
Agree on the overly destructive firepower and the possibility of confusion.

To clarify, my thought was not that the Inchies of the Ark were still in contact with the NailShip (as I am now calling it, because it sounds rock hard), rather that they had been sent on to 'prepare the way' by reduction to 144k, closing the Circle, before the Nailies come down to take over. As a sort of test of their commitment perhaps. It doesn't require them to have a direct link back to the NailShip, a brutal race can use brutal techniques with each other as well as their victims.
Title: Re: Inri Sejenus
Post by: H on June 17, 2019, 05:41:18 pm
Well, I think that it is, in no small part, an allusion by Bakker to the ancient idea of asology, in the sense that there was a belief that celestial events (like supernovea, comets and so on) marked "portenteous, or ominous" events in history.

So, there might well be some reason to be made that the pole star suddenly going (super)nova and increacing in brightness that actually is related to the Ark's arrival, or it could just be the the literary allusion to to the idea that it simply "must be" the case.

Also, it might possibly be an inversion of the idea of Star of Bethlehem, alluded to in the Hebrew bible, as what is called the Star Prophecy:

Quote
I shall see him, but not now: I shall behold him, but not nigh: there shall come a Star out of Jacob, and a Sceptre shall rise out of Israel, and shall smite the corners of Moab, and destroy all the children of Sheth.

 Numbers 24:17

In this case though, the star signals the arrival of the exact opposite of the savior, in the Ark.  And, "coincidentally" is the place to which an "alleged savior" ascends, rather than has marking his arrival.  In the end, it's likely a "trick" to get us to ascribe "meaning" based on the historical precedents of these events in our cultural history.