The Second Apocalypse

Miscellaneous Chatter => Philosophy & Science => Topic started by: sciborg2 on April 07, 2019, 05:07:55 pm

Title: The ancient philosophers and "anagogic power"?
Post by: sciborg2 on April 07, 2019, 05:07:55 pm
Interesting excerpt from The Golden Chain- An Anthology of Pythagorean and Platonic Philosophy (http://www.worldwisdom.com/public/viewpdf/default.aspx?article-title=Introduction_to_The_Golden_Chain_by_Algis_Uzdavinys.pdf)

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The  fall  in  philosophical  insight,  as  well  as  the  mission  of  the  superior  souls  sent  down  to  recall  corrupted  souls  to  the  divine  abode, was exemplified in the Phaedrus of Plato. Thus even Socrates, who  described  philosophy  as  a  kind  of  divinely  inspired  madness  (mania),  was  referred  to  as  a  savior  by  Hermeias  of  Alexandria.  According  to  him,  Socrates  had  been  sent  down  to  the  world  of  becoming as a benefit to mankind and to turn souls—each in a dif­ferent way—to philosophy. Not only Pythagoras, Archytas, Socrates, and  Plato,  but  also  later  philosophers  such  as  Ammonius  Saccas,  Plotinus,  Porphyry,  Iamblichus  and  Syrianus  were  “companions  of  the gods” (apadous theon andras) and belonged to the revelatory and soteriological tradition of philosophy, the main principles of which were  received  from  daemons  and  angels.  Such  men  were  ranked  with  divine  beings  and  called  “daemonic”  by  the  Pythagoreans.  They were members of the divine choir, free from subjection to the body and “instructed by the divine” (theodidaktos). Thus philosophy was  “sent  down”  along  with  those  who  preserved  intact  their  pure  vision of the gods in the heavenly procession (or the solar boat of Osiris-Ra,  to  express  the  matter  in  Egyptian  terms),  who  were  the  providential  agents  of  Eros  and  the  inspired  interpreters  of  the  noetic realities. They were the keepers of anagogic power, because dialectic and discursive thought were regarded as necessary aspects of  the  ascent.  According  to  Hermeias,  true  philosophers  were  divine-like  souls  who  derived  their  wisdom  from  the  immaterial  realm  and  then  translated  it  to  fallen  souls—those  who  ought  to  regrow their wings through the complete course of purification and recollection of their archetypal origins.
Title: Re: The ancient philosophers and "anagogic power"?
Post by: sciborg2 on April 07, 2019, 05:14:43 pm
Here's the Wikipedia entry for Anagoge (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anagoge):

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Anagoge (ἀναγωγή), sometimes spelled anagogy, is a Greek word suggesting a "climb" or "ascent" upwards. The anagogical is a method of mystical or spiritual interpretation of statements or events, especially scriptural exegesis, that detects allusions to the afterlife.[1]

Certain medieval theologians describe four methods of interpreting the scriptures: literal/historical, tropological, allegorical, and anagogical. Hugh of St. Victor, in De scripturis et scriptoribus sacris, distinguished anagoge, as a kind of allegory, from simple allegory.[2] He differentiated in the following way: in a simple allegory, an invisible action is (simply) signified or represented by a visible action; Anagoge is that "reasoning upwards" (sursum ductio), when, from the visible, the invisible action is disclosed or revealed.[3]

The four methods of interpretation point in four different directions: The literal/historical backwards to the past, the allegoric forwards to the future, the tropological downwards to the moral/human, and the anagogic upwards to the spiritual/heavenly.

Makes me wonder if there's more to Anagogis - I always wonder if there really is a Gnostic Daimos, given that it seems to me the Outside would fall beyond the remit of the precise description the Gnosis offers. Seems to me anything of the Outside (which is Inside in some sense iirc?) can only be grasped/leashed by way of analogy, in the way an engineer can master the external but it takes a poet to try and make a leap into the Abyss of the Internal toward the indirectly approachable but never achievable Zero-Person view....
Title: Re: The ancient philosophers and "anagogic power"?
Post by: Madness on April 07, 2019, 05:52:03 pm
I do believe there is a ZTS quote (badly paraphrashing) that suggests that Nonmen experimented with harnessing 'agencies' with the Gnosis but then said "better not."
Title: Re: The ancient philosophers and "anagogic power"?
Post by: sciborg2 on April 07, 2019, 06:22:19 pm
I do believe there is a ZTS quote (badly paraphrashing) that suggests that Nonmen experimented with harnessing 'agencies' with the Gnosis but then said "better not."

I know Bakker has mentioned the possibility of a Gnostic Daimos, but the way he said it - IIRC - was rather cagey. I can't help but suspect there was an attempt to use the Gnosis to leash entities in the Outside but it did not yield the expected results.

OTOH I could be off the mark and the Gnostic Gnosis is better in conjuration/summoning just as it (seemingly?) outclasses the other ways of magic in everything else. My only caveat is that Kellhus seems to have made no effort to develop a Gnostic Daimos, unless I missed something substantial in TUC?

edit: Also all the "head on a pole" stuff seemed to relying on analogy/symbolism rather than the geometries of the Gnosis...
Title: Re: The ancient philosophers and "anagogic power"?
Post by: Madness on April 07, 2019, 06:49:04 pm
Cagey. Lol.

Kellhus wasn't a part of the mass TTT/TUC Ciphrang summoning, right?

There a number of bullet points to discern there aren't there. This might collapse the answers as to whether Kellhus or a Nonman Quya could summon one of the names Hundred (and I am one of the rare assholes who can leak things but I am of FB's opinion that The Carathayan short opens up a lot of the world regarding TNG and Kellhus' "dead but not done" status.
Title: Re: The ancient philosophers and "anagogic power"?
Post by: Madness on April 07, 2019, 06:50:23 pm
Whah whah. Editing on mobile is inconceivable.
Title: Re: The ancient philosophers and "anagogic power"?
Post by: themerchant on April 08, 2019, 09:22:52 pm
It's in the UC appendix under "inversions" is it not? The area of the daimos concerned with going to the outside.

outlawed by the thousand temples, eschewed by the Mandate, Inversions are the most feared discipline of the Daimos,especially within the Scarlett Spires.

Suggest it can be done but isn't done.
Title: Re: The ancient philosophers and "anagogic power"?
Post by: Redeagl on April 08, 2019, 09:49:27 pm
The whole forum in mobile is inconceivable.
Title: Re: The ancient philosophers and "anagogic power"?
Post by: TLEILAXU on April 08, 2019, 10:22:24 pm
I do believe there is a ZTS quote (badly paraphrashing) that suggests that Nonmen experimented with harnessing 'agencies' with the Gnosis but then said "better not."

I know Bakker has mentioned the possibility of a Gnostic Daimos, but the way he said it - IIRC - was rather cagey. I can't help but suspect there was an attempt to use the Gnosis to leash entities in the Outside but it did not yield the expected results.

OTOH I could be off the mark and the Gnostic Gnosis is better in conjuration/summoning just as it (seemingly?) outclasses the other ways of magic in everything else. My only caveat is that Kellhus seems to have made no effort to develop a Gnostic Daimos, unless I missed something substantial in TUC?

edit: Also all the "head on a pole" stuff seemed to relying on analogy/symbolism rather than the geometries of the Gnosis...
It could be that the theorems of the gnosis just can't accurately describe Godlings from the Outside, similar to how science can't really explain why kids love cinnamon crunch.
Title: Re: The ancient philosophers and "anagogic power"?
Post by: sciborg2 on April 08, 2019, 11:47:40 pm
I do believe there is a ZTS quote (badly paraphrashing) that suggests that Nonmen experimented with harnessing 'agencies' with the Gnosis but then said "better not."

I know Bakker has mentioned the possibility of a Gnostic Daimos, but the way he said it - IIRC - was rather cagey. I can't help but suspect there was an attempt to use the Gnosis to leash entities in the Outside but it did not yield the expected results.

OTOH I could be off the mark and the Gnostic Gnosis is better in conjuration/summoning just as it (seemingly?) outclasses the other ways of magic in everything else. My only caveat is that Kellhus seems to have made no effort to develop a Gnostic Daimos, unless I missed something substantial in TUC?

edit: Also all the "head on a pole" stuff seemed to relying on analogy/symbolism rather than the geometries of the Gnosis...
It could be that the theorems of the gnosis just can't accurately describe Godlings from the Outside, similar to how science can't really explain why kids love cinnamon crunch.

That's pretty much how I see it, but I am not sure that's what Bakker intended. We also know that birth control is made by witches - is that a magic the Gnosis could accomplish? I suspect not given that human knocked up a Nonmen chick...

This might be another case of interacting with the Outside via analogy since as per Akka each human consciousness is a penetration of the Outside into the "mundane" universe.
Title: Re: The ancient philosophers and "anagogic power"?
Post by: H on April 09, 2019, 11:56:35 am
Well, if Kellhus figured it was easier to do with the actual Diamos, then likely it really was, since no one seems to ever have had more Gnostic power than him.

Perhaps it's a case that the Gnosis' "formal" power is exactly that, too formal to do much in the abstract realm of the Outside.  Perhaps even, Yatwer (and the rest of the 100) are not even "formal" entities, as we would imagine, for example, the Solitary God would be (was it to exist).
Title: Re: The ancient philosophers and "anagogic power"?
Post by: Wilshire on April 09, 2019, 02:30:53 pm
So a gnostic equivalent ... Jiamos? (A->D and G->J are the same distance on the alphabet) ... would potentially only summon something without analogy - if it did work you'd be summoning the One God, or some actual real god (The Gods Themselves), as opposed to the analogous gods (god of birth, god of war, etc.)

Title: Re: The ancient philosophers and "anagogic power"?
Post by: H on April 09, 2019, 03:04:41 pm
So a gnostic equivalent ... Jiamos? (A->D and G->J are the same distance on the alphabet) ... would potentially only summon something without analogy - if it did work you'd be summoning the One God, or some actual real god (The Gods Themselves), as opposed to the analogous gods (god of birth, god of war, etc.)

Well, as much as I can't elucidate it properly, I do think there is a "difference" between the abstract notion of a vector and the abstract notion of a daemon.
Title: Re: The ancient philosophers and "anagogic power"?
Post by: Wilshire on April 09, 2019, 03:16:49 pm
So Kellhus could only  summon Laplace's Demon?
Title: Re: The ancient philosophers and "anagogic power"?
Post by: H on April 09, 2019, 03:58:21 pm
So Kellhus could only  summon Laplace's Demon?

Well, if he could have, he probably would have, so...

(I actually don't think Laplace's Demon would know all that much in Earwa anyway, because the Outside is likely not corpuscular.)
Title: Re: The ancient philosophers and "anagogic power"?
Post by: sciborg2 on April 09, 2019, 07:25:52 pm
So Kellhus could only  summon Laplace's Demon?

Well, if he could have, he probably would have, so...

(I actually don't think Laplace's Demon would know all that much in Earwa anyway, because the Outside is likely not corpuscular.)

Also what comes After determines what comes Before. Final Causation even beyond Aquinas boi!
Title: Re: The ancient philosophers and "anagogic power"?
Post by: Wilshire on April 09, 2019, 07:32:40 pm
I mean Laplace's Demon is basically the Thousandfold Thought with a little more data. Neither work in Earwa  in an absolute sense ;)
Title: Re: The ancient philosophers and "anagogic power"?
Post by: sciborg2 on April 09, 2019, 08:42:56 pm
I mean Laplace's Demon is basically the Thousandfold Thought with a little more data. Neither work in Earwa  in an absolute sense ;)

I'm not so sure about that. There was a running theory that all the rational explanations Kellhus had for why the Dunyain could read faces and the like were actually rationalizations for what was a "numinous" power.
Title: Re: The ancient philosophers and "anagogic power"?
Post by: H on April 09, 2019, 09:22:46 pm
I mean Laplace's Demon is basically the Thousandfold Thought with a little more data. Neither work in Earwa  in an absolute sense ;)

I'm not so sure about that. There was a running theory that all the rational explanations Kellhus had for why the Dunyain could read faces and the like were actually rationalizations for what was a "numinous" power.

The thing is, of course, that we can't know.  I do rate it more plausible that such was "mundane" but there is no way to prove it one way or the other, or even determine if one is or is not more plausible.
Title: Re: The ancient philosophers and "anagogic power"?
Post by: sciborg2 on April 09, 2019, 09:40:05 pm
I mean Laplace's Demon is basically the Thousandfold Thought with a little more data. Neither work in Earwa  in an absolute sense ;)

I'm not so sure about that. There was a running theory that all the rational explanations Kellhus had for why the Dunyain could read faces and the like were actually rationalizations for what was a "numinous" power.

The thing is, of course, that we can't know.  I do rate it more plausible that such was "mundane" but there is no way to prove it one way or the other, or even determine if one is or is not more plausible.

I kinda suspect we can make an educated guess based on the text, in the same way that (IMO anyway) the correct metaphysics for the Bakkerverse is Monadic Idealism of some variety (at least as a description for the Inside).

Maybe my memory is off but weren't there a few conclusions of the TTT that seemed beyond algorithmic? Going back to the OP perhaps the Dunyain unwittingly did managed to move higher up the "Golden Chain" - and thus increase their "Psi" power - but their entire project was a dead [end] in terms of reaching the Absolute.
Title: Re: The ancient philosophers and "anagogic power"?
Post by: Wilshire on April 10, 2019, 12:20:33 pm
Maybe my memory is off but weren't there a few conclusions of the TTT that seemed beyond algorithmic? Going back to the OP perhaps the Dunyain unwittingly did managed to move higher up the "Golden Chain" - and thus increase their "Psi" power - but their entire project was a dead [end] in terms of reaching the Absolute.
Getting off topic a bit to the original post but ... oh well.

Anything supernatural allegedly done/predicted  by TTT is heavily speculative with minimal support from the text. The words only reflect that its an extension of the probability trance. Definitely possible to speculate that there's more, but I wouldn't say its really support without a lot of stretching.

If you think a function is linear, you're not likely going to be able to properly describe a quartic function - though you can still be correct locally with a small enough range. So does the probability trance become TTT when the missing variables of magic, history, war, and the consult become known - it just takes a lot longer to  graph by hand ;), taking a lot of meditative time to grasp. Probably helps a lot if someone points out that maybe your linear function isn't so correct as you thought.
Title: Re: The ancient philosophers and "anagogic power"?
Post by: sciborg2 on April 10, 2019, 07:26:32 pm
Maybe my memory is off but weren't there a few conclusions of the TTT that seemed beyond algorithmic? Going back to the OP perhaps the Dunyain unwittingly did managed to move higher up the "Golden Chain" - and thus increase their "Psi" power - but their entire project was a dead [end] in terms of reaching the Absolute.
Getting off topic a bit to the original post but ... oh well.

Anything supernatural allegedly done/predicted  by TTT is heavily speculative with minimal support from the text. The words only reflect that its an extension of the probability trance. Definitely possible to speculate that there's more, but I wouldn't say its really support without a lot of stretching.

If you think a function is linear, you're not likely going to be able to properly describe a quartic function - though you can still be correct locally with a small enough range. So does the probability trance become TTT when the missing variables of magic, history, war, and the consult become known - it just takes a lot longer to  graph by hand ;), taking a lot of meditative time to grasp. Probably helps a lot if someone points out that maybe your linear function isn't so correct as you thought.

How does one even accurately project probabilities or do curve fitting for final causes, where the goal determines the preceding causal path?

I think at the point one accepts at least two types of causation at work, Efficient & Final, probabilities would only be at most half the story?
Title: Re: The ancient philosophers and "anagogic power"?
Post by: Wilshire on April 10, 2019, 07:47:42 pm
I think at the point one accepts at least two types of causation at work, Efficient & Final, probabilities would only be at most half the story?
I dont think at the point of TTT either Anasurimbor had accepted more than 1 type of causation, so the question doesn't really apply.
Title: Re: The ancient philosophers and "anagogic power"?
Post by: sciborg2 on April 10, 2019, 08:35:33 pm
I think at the point one accepts at least two types of causation at work, Efficient & Final, probabilities would only be at most half the story?
I dont think at the point of TTT either Anasurimbor had accepted more than 1 type of causation, so the question doesn't really apply.

Isn't the acceptance that [what] comes after determining what comes before an acceptance of Final Cause in addition to the usual Efficient Cause?

Isn't the acceptance of "What comes After can Determine what comes Before" an acceptance of Final Cause in addition to the usual Efficient Cause?

(Honest question, I may be misremembering Khellus's thinking of the causation issue)
Title: Re: The ancient philosophers and "anagogic power"?
Post by: Wilshire on April 11, 2019, 06:09:47 pm
That sounds correct, so ... yes? Admittedly I'm not sure exactly what you mean with all those terms though lol.
Title: Re: The ancient philosophers and "anagogic power"?
Post by: sciborg2 on April 11, 2019, 08:32:50 pm
That sounds correct, so ... yes? Admittedly I'm not sure exactly what you mean with all those terms though lol.

Oh I just mean the following:

Efficient Causation: A -causes-> B -causes-> C

Final Causation A -causes-> B, rather than anything else, because there is a future end that is directing the A->B relation to some event.
Title: Re: The ancient philosophers and "anagogic power"?
Post by: TaoHorror on April 11, 2019, 09:53:16 pm
That sounds correct, so ... yes? Admittedly I'm not sure exactly what you mean with all those terms though lol.

Oh I just mean the following:

Efficient Causation: A -causes-> B -causes-> C

Final Causation A -causes-> B, rather than anything else, because there is a future end that is directing the A->B relation to some event.

I think I'm following - could you provide an example? Doesn't have to be in the book, but fill in A, B and C - only if you feel like it, not trying to dump work on you.
Title: Re: The ancient philosophers and "anagogic power"?
Post by: sciborg2 on April 11, 2019, 11:15:27 pm
That sounds correct, so ... yes? Admittedly I'm not sure exactly what you mean with all those terms though lol.

Oh I just mean the following:

Efficient Causation: A -causes-> B -causes-> C

Final Causation A -causes-> B, rather than anything else, because there is a future end that is directing the A->B relation to some event.

I think I'm following - could you provide an example? Doesn't have to be in the book, but fill in A, B and C - only if you feel like it, not trying to dump work on you.

Efficient Cause would be Kellhus realizing that if he says something manipulative to someone they'll do what he wants because his words cause the correct path of mental causation in his victims. Or to keep it fully physical, if a brick hits a window that will cause the window to shatter.

Final Cause would be events twisting themselves so that the No God rises, because that even[t] must happen. So possibilities are constrained to ensure the No God rises. In a more general sense Final Cause is the constraint that keeps events from degenerating into pure chaos - so whatever it is that constrains a probability cloud that denotes the particle's possible positions could be thought of as a kind of Final Cause...[and if you believe in mental causation our ends determine our bodily movements and thus could be another kind of Final Cause.]
Title: Re: The ancient philosophers and "anagogic power"?
Post by: Wilshire on April 12, 2019, 12:47:08 pm
So to me it sounds like:
Final Cause says Future Events that have not yet happened actually cause Present/Past Events.

Which to me is basically pure Fate, without freewill. You can't change events because they are set in stone by the final outcome.

I don't think that's how Earwa works, but some combination of Efficient and Final Cause. (this ignoring the fact of course that its a book, and Bakker is the final cause lol).
Title: Re: The ancient philosophers and "anagogic power"?
Post by: sciborg2 on April 12, 2019, 04:22:33 pm
So to me it sounds like:
Final Cause says Future Events that have not yet happened actually cause Present/Past Events.

Which to me is basically pure Fate, without freewill. You can't change events because they are set in stone by the final outcome.

I don't think that's how Earwa works, but some combination of Efficient and Final Cause. (this ignoring the fact of course that its a book, and Bakker is the final cause lol).

Oh I agree it's some kind of combination. The characters can eat, shit, fuck as they please and [so on] as the Bios allows so long as the decisions concerning the No God's resurrection come to pass.
Title: Re: The ancient philosophers and "anagogic power"?
Post by: TheCulminatingApe on April 14, 2019, 07:39:43 pm
from Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegorical_interpretation_of_the_Bible (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegorical_interpretation_of_the_Bible)
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Anagogic interpretation: dealing with the future events of Christian history (eschatology) as well as heaven, purgatory, hell, the last judgement, the General Resurrection and second Advent of Christ, etc. (prophecies)...

The literal teaches what God and our ancestors did,
The allegory is where our faith and belief is hid,
The moral meaning gives us the rule of daily life,
The anagogy shows us where we end our strife

Heaven, hell judgement, resurrection and eschatology seem well in keeping with the subject matter of TSA.

From Dictionary.com https://www.dictionary.com/browse/anagogic (https://www.dictionary.com/browse/anagogic)
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anagogic or anagogical

adjective
of or relating to an anagoge.
Psychology . deriving from, pertaining to, or reflecting the moral or idealistic striving of the unconscious: anagogic image; anagogic interpretation

and https://www.dictionary.com/browse/anagoge (https://www.dictionary.com/browse/anagoge)
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anagoge or anagogy
noun
a spiritual interpretation or application of words, as of Scriptures.
a form of allegorical interpretation of Scripture that seeks hidden meanings regarding the future life

From encyclopedia.com https://www.encyclopedia.com/medicine/psychology/psychology-and-psychiatry/anagogical-interpretation (https://www.encyclopedia.com/medicine/psychology/psychology-and-psychiatry/anagogical-interpretation)
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ANAGOGICAL INTERPRETATION

The idea of "anagogical interpretation"—a kind of interpretation which moves, according to the Robert dictionary, "from a literal to a mystical meaning"—derives from theology. An anagoge is a mystical interpretation that implies spiritual elevation, convergence towards a universal symbolic meaning, and an ecstatic feeling. The notion was promoted by Herbert Silberer, author of Hidden Symbolism of Alchemy and the Occult Arts (1914/1971).

Anagogical interpretation relates to the "functional phenomenon" that Silberer defined on the basis of his observation of hypnagogic processes. Silberer described three levels of symbolization: somatic, material, and functional. The "functional phenomenon" pertains to the capacity for symbolic generalization: it facilitates the shift from "material" symbolization of the particular contents of thought to a general symbolization, in images, affects, tendencies, intentions, and complexes that reflect the structure of the psyche.

In psychoanalytic treatment, anagogical interpretation aims at strengthening the tendency to form more and more universal symbols, whose ethical value is also reinforced. Silberer claimed that the functional phenomena were bolstered in the course of an analysis.

This idea of interpretation as a generalizing idealization in the here and now is at odds with the Freudian conception based on the personal dimension, the erogenous zones, and deferred action. Freud recognized the utility of Silberer's hypotheses for explaining the formation of ideas and the dramatic character of dreams, but he criticized his extension of it to the technique of interpretation (as did Ernest Jones, who likened Silberer's approach to Jung's). Freud further rebuked Silberer for falling prey to the defense mechanisms of rationalization and reaction-formation.

From Oxford Reference http://www.oxfordreference.com/view/10.1093/oi/authority.20110803095410410 (http://www.oxfordreference.com/view/10.1093/oi/authority.20110803095410410)
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In psychoanalysis, a mode of interpretation of dreams, myths, and other symbolic representations in order to reveal their higher allegorical or spiritual meaning. It is considered to be the opposite of ordinary analytic interpretation, which on the contrary reduces such material to its basic and often sexual content. Carl Gustav Jung (1875–1961) incorporated anagogic interpretation into his analytical psychology, but Sigmund Freud (1856–1939) rejected it as merely a reversion to pre-analytic notions (‘Dreams and Telepathy’, 1922, Standard Edition, XVIII, pp. 197–220, at p. 216). [From Greek anagoge a lifting up, from ana up + agein to lead]

Do Akka's Dreams therefore have a meaning over and above recollections of the Apocalypse?  And does the fact they the Dreams change, reflect changes in the Outside (presumably Kellhus up to something)?
Title: Re: The ancient philosophers and "anagogic power"?
Post by: TheCulminatingApe on April 14, 2019, 07:59:39 pm
Makes me wonder if there's more to Anagogis - I always wonder if there really is a Gnostic Daimos, given that it seems to me the Outside would fall beyond the remit of the precise description the Gnosis offers. Seems to me anything of the Outside (which is Inside in some sense iirc?) can only be grasped/leashed by way of analogy, in the way an engineer can master the external but it takes a poet to try and make a leap into the Abyss of the Internal toward the indirectly approachable but never achievable Zero-Person view....

It could be that the theorems of the gnosis just can't accurately describe Godlings from the Outside, similar to how science can't really explain why kids love cinnamon crunch.

If the Outside is the place where 'circumstances yield more and more to desire', and where the more more powerful entities of the Outside dwell in "sub-realities" that conform to their desires' (both quotes from TUC Glossary), then it would seem to be difficult to be able for the Gnosis to 'say' anything abstract about it.  You can have an abstract desire (eg happiness), but what represents that desire will inevitably vary from individual to individual - if you are to conjure happiness, that must relate to your subjective desire (i.e. what makes you happy).  Equally if you are going to summon a Ciphrang, you must surely be summoning the individual Ciphrang in question, and not an abstract concept. 
Title: Re: The ancient philosophers and "anagogic power"?
Post by: sciborg2 on April 15, 2019, 04:58:10 pm
Makes me wonder if there's more to Anagogis - I always wonder if there really is a Gnostic Daimos, given that it seems to me the Outside would fall beyond the remit of the precise description the Gnosis offers. Seems to me anything of the Outside (which is Inside in some sense iirc?) can only be grasped/leashed by way of analogy, in the way an engineer can master the external but it takes a poet to try and make a leap into the Abyss of the Internal toward the indirectly approachable but never achievable Zero-Person view....

It could be that the theorems of the gnosis just can't accurately describe Godlings from the Outside, similar to how science can't really explain why kids love cinnamon crunch.

If the Outside is the place where 'circumstances yield more and more to desire', and where the more more powerful entities of the Outside dwell in "sub-realities" that conform to their desires' (both quotes from TUC Glossary), then it would seem to be difficult to be able for the Gnosis to 'say' anything abstract about it.  You can have an abstract desire (eg happiness), but what represents that desire will inevitably vary from individual to individual - if you are to conjure happiness, that must relate to your subjective desire (i.e. what makes you happy).  Equally if you are going to summon a Ciphrang, you must surely be summoning the individual Ciphrang in question, and not an abstract concept. 

This is how I see it as well - though you introduce what seems to me a really interesting point. The Gnosis has so much power within the "mundane" part of reality, the "Inside", because that aspect of God's dreaming is cogent/ordered and aligns well with God's rational and thus mathematical aspect.

Or did I misunderstand?
Title: Re: The ancient philosophers and "anagogic power"?
Post by: Frankly Bucked on April 15, 2019, 05:00:35 pm
The real question is, how does Roko's Basilisk stack up against the No-God?
Title: Re: The ancient philosophers and "anagogic power"?
Post by: sciborg2 on April 15, 2019, 07:32:29 pm
The real question is, how does Roko's Basilisk stack up against the No-God?

Did God lose Himself in the “labyrinth of the continuum”? (http://critique-of-pure-interest.blogspot.com/2017/03/leibnizs-question-crisis-of-physicalism_63.html)

Quote
A second reason why I like this theory is that it enables us to explain why the universe is not perfect, despite being the mathematical image of ASA (or ‘God’ if you prefer). For, as Turing showed (as part of his proof of the undecidability of the halting problem), by far most of the real numbers are uncomputable and therefore transcendental. This means that their decimal expansions cannot be generated by any algorithm. Thus, from the perspective of algorithmic information theory, their decimal expansions are totally random. In being aware of the continuum, therefore, ASA is aware of something that is for the most part unordered, a kind of primordial chaos. ASA’s attempt to find patterns in the continuum (in order to mirror itself in those patterns) must therefore be extraordinarily difficult, indeed virtually impossible, since the ordered part of the continuum is infinitesimally small compared to the unordered part. In fact, if one could randomly pick out a real number (say, by pricking somewhere in the real number line with an infinitely sharp needle), the probability of getting an uncomputable number is approximately 1 (cf. Chaitin 2005: 113)! Perhaps this explains why the universe, despite being an image of ASA, is not perfect? It must, after all, be close to impossible for ASA to find order in the continuum.
Title: Re: The ancient philosophers and "anagogic power"?
Post by: TheCulminatingApe on April 15, 2019, 08:32:20 pm
This is how I see it as well - though you introduce what seems to me a really interesting point. The Gnosis has so much power within the "mundane" part of reality, the "Inside", because that aspect of God's dreaming is cogent/ordered and aligns well with God's rational and thus mathematical aspect.

Or did I misunderstand?

I'd say the Gnosis works with (or on) objective reality, rather than with subjective perceptions of reality. 
Title: Re: The ancient philosophers and "anagogic power"?
Post by: TLEILAXU on April 15, 2019, 08:52:27 pm
The real question is, how does Roko's Basilisk stack up against the No-God?

Did God lose Himself in the “labyrinth of the continuum”? (http://critique-of-pure-interest.blogspot.com/2017/03/leibnizs-question-crisis-of-physicalism_63.html)

Quote
A second reason why I like this theory is that it enables us to explain why the universe is not perfect, despite being the mathematical image of ASA (or ‘God’ if you prefer). For, as Turing showed (as part of his proof of the undecidability of the halting problem), by far most of the real numbers are uncomputable and therefore transcendental. This means that their decimal expansions cannot be generated by any algorithm. Thus, from the perspective of algorithmic information theory, their decimal expansions are totally random. In being aware of the continuum, therefore, ASA is aware of something that is for the most part unordered, a kind of primordial chaos. ASA’s attempt to find patterns in the continuum (in order to mirror itself in those patterns) must therefore be extraordinarily difficult, indeed virtually impossible, since the ordered part of the continuum is infinitesimally small compared to the unordered part. In fact, if one could randomly pick out a real number (say, by pricking somewhere in the real number line with an infinitely sharp needle), the probability of getting an uncomputable number is approximately 1 (cf. Chaitin 2005: 113)! Perhaps this explains why the universe, despite being an image of ASA, is not perfect? It must, after all, be close to impossible for ASA to find order in the continuum.
How does that quote stack up if reality is discrete, i.e. plank length?
Title: Re: The ancient philosophers and "anagogic power"?
Post by: sciborg2 on April 16, 2019, 12:38:18 am
This is how I see it as well - though you introduce what seems to me a really interesting point. The Gnosis has so much power within the "mundane" part of reality, the "Inside", because that aspect of God's dreaming is cogent/ordered and aligns well with God's rational and thus mathematical aspect.

Or did I misunderstand?

I'd say the Gnosis works with (or on) objective reality, rather than with subjective perceptions of reality. 

But isn't the objective reality the perception of God who dreamed up the universe and the Outside?

Or are we agreeing here but I'm too dumb to see it?

=-=-=

The real question is, how does Roko's Basilisk stack up against the No-God?

Did God lose Himself in the “labyrinth of the continuum”? (http://critique-of-pure-interest.blogspot.com/2017/03/leibnizs-question-crisis-of-physicalism_63.html)

Quote
A second reason why I like this theory is that it enables us to explain why the universe is not perfect, despite being the mathematical image of ASA (or ‘God’ if you prefer). For, as Turing showed (as part of his proof of the undecidability of the halting problem), by far most of the real numbers are uncomputable and therefore transcendental. This means that their decimal expansions cannot be generated by any algorithm. Thus, from the perspective of algorithmic information theory, their decimal expansions are totally random. In being aware of the continuum, therefore, ASA is aware of something that is for the most part unordered, a kind of primordial chaos. ASA’s attempt to find patterns in the continuum (in order to mirror itself in those patterns) must therefore be extraordinarily difficult, indeed virtually impossible, since the ordered part of the continuum is infinitesimally small compared to the unordered part. In fact, if one could randomly pick out a real number (say, by pricking somewhere in the real number line with an infinitely sharp needle), the probability of getting an uncomputable number is approximately 1 (cf. Chaitin 2005: 113)! Perhaps this explains why the universe, despite being an image of ASA, is not perfect? It must, after all, be close to impossible for ASA to find order in the continuum.
How does that quote stack up if reality is discrete, i.e. plank length?

Oh I barely think I understand the quote or the essay itself...so not sure if it would make a difference?
Title: Re: The ancient philosophers and "anagogic power"?
Post by: Frankly Bucked on April 16, 2019, 10:25:26 pm
The real question is, how does Roko's Basilisk stack up against the No-God?

Did God lose Himself in the “labyrinth of the continuum”? (http://critique-of-pure-interest.blogspot.com/2017/03/leibnizs-question-crisis-of-physicalism_63.html)

Quote
A second reason why I like this theory is that it enables us to explain why the universe is not perfect, despite being the mathematical image of ASA (or ‘God’ if you prefer). For, as Turing showed (as part of his proof of the undecidability of the halting problem), by far most of the real numbers are uncomputable and therefore transcendental. This means that their decimal expansions cannot be generated by any algorithm. Thus, from the perspective of algorithmic information theory, their decimal expansions are totally random. In being aware of the continuum, therefore, ASA is aware of something that is for the most part unordered, a kind of primordial chaos. ASA’s attempt to find patterns in the continuum (in order to mirror itself in those patterns) must therefore be extraordinarily difficult, indeed virtually impossible, since the ordered part of the continuum is infinitesimally small compared to the unordered part. In fact, if one could randomly pick out a real number (say, by pricking somewhere in the real number line with an infinitely sharp needle), the probability of getting an uncomputable number is approximately 1 (cf. Chaitin 2005: 113)! Perhaps this explains why the universe, despite being an image of ASA, is not perfect? It must, after all, be close to impossible for ASA to find order in the continuum.

Hm, very interesting indeed. Any chance you could elaborate on --


Oh I barely think I understand the quote or the essay itself...so not sure if it would make a difference?

-- ah, welp. Something to mull over!

(#Team No-God)
Title: Re: The ancient philosophers and "anagogic power"?
Post by: sciborg2 on April 16, 2019, 11:28:11 pm
The real question is, how does Roko's Basilisk stack up against the No-God?

Did God lose Himself in the “labyrinth of the continuum”? (http://critique-of-pure-interest.blogspot.com/2017/03/leibnizs-question-crisis-of-physicalism_63.html)

Quote
A second reason why I like this theory is that it enables us to explain why the universe is not perfect, despite being the mathematical image of ASA (or ‘God’ if you prefer). For, as Turing showed (as part of his proof of the undecidability of the halting problem), by far most of the real numbers are uncomputable and therefore transcendental. This means that their decimal expansions cannot be generated by any algorithm. Thus, from the perspective of algorithmic information theory, their decimal expansions are totally random. In being aware of the continuum, therefore, ASA is aware of something that is for the most part unordered, a kind of primordial chaos. ASA’s attempt to find patterns in the continuum (in order to mirror itself in those patterns) must therefore be extraordinarily difficult, indeed virtually impossible, since the ordered part of the continuum is infinitesimally small compared to the unordered part. In fact, if one could randomly pick out a real number (say, by pricking somewhere in the real number line with an infinitely sharp needle), the probability of getting an uncomputable number is approximately 1 (cf. Chaitin 2005: 113)! Perhaps this explains why the universe, despite being an image of ASA, is not perfect? It must, after all, be close to impossible for ASA to find order in the continuum.

Hm, very interesting indeed. Any chance you could elaborate on --


Oh I barely think I understand the quote or the essay itself...so not sure if it would make a difference?

-- ah, welp. Something to mull over!

(#Team No-God)

Ah you should ask your question - if I can't answer it now I might later, or more likely another person might have a clue.
Title: Re: The ancient philosophers and "anagogic power"?
Post by: H on April 17, 2019, 04:21:27 pm
So to me it sounds like:
Final Cause says Future Events that have not yet happened actually cause Present/Past Events.

Which to me is basically pure Fate, without freewill. You can't change events because they are set in stone by the final outcome.

I don't think that's how Earwa works, but some combination of Efficient and Final Cause. (this ignoring the fact of course that its a book, and Bakker is the final cause lol).

Oh I agree it's some kind of combination. The characters can eat, shit, fuck as they please and [so on] as the Bios allows so long as the decisions concerning the No God's resurrection come to pass.

Well, doesn't Final Cause essentially supersede?

In fact, is this not what a "narrative" essentially is?  (Maybe?)
Title: Re: The ancient philosophers and "anagogic power"?
Post by: sciborg2 on April 20, 2019, 03:36:07 am
So to me it sounds like:
Final Cause says Future Events that have not yet happened actually cause Present/Past Events.

Which to me is basically pure Fate, without freewill. You can't change events because they are set in stone by the final outcome.

I don't think that's how Earwa works, but some combination of Efficient and Final Cause. (this ignoring the fact of course that its a book, and Bakker is the final cause lol).

Oh I agree it's some kind of combination. The characters can eat, shit, fuck as they please and [so on] as the Bios allows so long as the decisions concerning the No God's resurrection come to pass.

Well, doesn't Final Cause essentially supersede?

In fact, is this not what a "narrative" essentially is?  (Maybe?)

Yeah I think so...Bakker always said the World conspires and is a character. Some ancient Greeks - IIRC following Aristotle - thought of final causes as inherent to the nature of entities/objects in the world. That is, in a micro-sense, the Final Cause of all things determining their Material, Formal, and Efficient Causes of the animals/objects/persons.

In a macro-sense it could be that the Final Cause of Earwa is the "salvation history" of the Bakkerverse, that just as the World sets the ends of all within its embrace God set a Final Cause for the World itself. Aristotle, IIRC, thought of the Prime Mover as the Perfection/Good to which all mortal things moved toward. So then in turn the Final Cause of Earwa is the axis on which the rest of the Inside (at the least) may turn.

Realization of Earwa-as-Axis-Mundi may be how the Progenitors of the Inchoroi ended up finding Earwa. It might be possible to use machine learning or some other pattern recognition process to fill in the missing causal vector. You cannot trace final causes in the usual scientific way of determining interest-relative causation. or so I suspect, but you can potentially map the influence of Final Causes and then subsequently use that as the basis of the compass to find the Promised Land...or maybe that's all BS...

I don't know if Bakker thought of all this in quite these terms, but I do suspect he went back to the Ancient Greeks and at the least the European Idealists for his metaphysics.
Title: Re: The ancient philosophers and "anagogic power"?
Post by: H on April 22, 2019, 09:41:48 pm
Yeah I think so...Bakker always said the World conspires and is a character. Some ancient Greeks - IIRC following Aristotle - thought of final causes as inherent to the nature of entities/objects in the world. That is, in a micro-sense, the Final Cause of all things determining their Material, Formal, and Efficient Causes of the animals/objects/persons.

In a macro-sense it could be that the Final Cause of Earwa is the "salvation history" of the Bakkerverse, that just as the World sets the ends of all within its embrace God set a Final Cause for the World itself. Aristotle, IIRC, thought of the Prime Mover as the Perfection/Good to which all mortal things moved toward. So then in turn the Final Cause of Earwa is the axis on which the rest of the Inside (at the least) may turn.

Realization of Earwa-as-Axis-Mundi may be how the Progenitors of the Inchoroi ended up finding Earwa. It might be possible to use machine learning or some other pattern recognition process to fill in the missing causal vector. You cannot trace final causes in the usual scientific way of determining interest-relative causation. or so I suspect, but you can potentially map the influence of Final Causes and then subsequently use that as the basis of the compass to find the Promised Land...or maybe that's all BS...

I don't know if Bakker thought of all this in quite these terms, but I do suspect he went back to the Ancient Greeks and at the least the European Idealists for his metaphysics.

Well, in a way, Final Cause, as much as we really don't think of it as such, is the "main cause."  Think about it in terms of making something.  Like, the Final Cause of a chair is the whole reason a chair exists.  Final Cause is "almost" a way that "future" dictates that "past."  Rather, it is the conditioning of the imagined future onto the present which then dictates the progression of past to present and then so then future.
Title: Re: The ancient philosophers and "anagogic power"?
Post by: sciborg2 on April 23, 2019, 02:02:05 am
Yeah I think so...Bakker always said the World conspires and is a character. Some ancient Greeks - IIRC following Aristotle - thought of final causes as inherent to the nature of entities/objects in the world. That is, in a micro-sense, the Final Cause of all things determining their Material, Formal, and Efficient Causes of the animals/objects/persons.

In a macro-sense it could be that the Final Cause of Earwa is the "salvation history" of the Bakkerverse, that just as the World sets the ends of all within its embrace God set a Final Cause for the World itself. Aristotle, IIRC, thought of the Prime Mover as the Perfection/Good to which all mortal things moved toward. So then in turn the Final Cause of Earwa is the axis on which the rest of the Inside (at the least) may turn.

Realization of Earwa-as-Axis-Mundi may be how the Progenitors of the Inchoroi ended up finding Earwa. It might be possible to use machine learning or some other pattern recognition process to fill in the missing causal vector. You cannot trace final causes in the usual scientific way of determining interest-relative causation. or so I suspect, but you can potentially map the influence of Final Causes and then subsequently use that as the basis of the compass to find the Promised Land...or maybe that's all BS...

I don't know if Bakker thought of all this in quite these terms, but I do suspect he went back to the Ancient Greeks and at the least the European Idealists for his metaphysics.

Well, in a way, Final Cause, as much as we really don't think of it as such, is the "main cause."  Think about it in terms of making something.  Like, the Final Cause of a chair is the whole reason a chair exists.  Final Cause is "almost" a way that "future" dictates that "past."  Rather, it is the conditioning of the imagined future onto the present which then dictates the progression of past to present and then so then future.

Yeah it's a good way to resolve the free will vs destiny problem of Earwa. There is an End to History, but as a Final Cause it is similar not only to the ends of the physical world but also to how the ends of the ensouled mortals determine their bodies' movements.

And b/c the Bakkerverse is Idealistic & Panpsychic (at least if the Monadology theory is correct) one could even say the ends of "physicalist" entities is exactly akin to the ends of the ensouled.

What comes After does determine what comes Before, just not in the sense of the Future being extant in the Block Universe sense.
Title: Re: The ancient philosophers and "anagogic power"?
Post by: Frankly Bucked on April 23, 2019, 06:29:52 am
Ah you should ask your question - if I can't answer it now I might later, or more likely another person might have a clue.

Hah, well I guess start from the beginning and go from there, because most of that is lost on me unfortunately. Interesting post, though!

Yeah I think so...Bakker always said the World conspires and is a character. Some ancient Greeks - IIRC following Aristotle - thought of final causes as inherent to the nature of entities/objects in the world. That is, in a micro-sense, the Final Cause of all things determining their Material, Formal, and Efficient Causes of the animals/objects/persons.

In a macro-sense it could be that the Final Cause of Earwa is the "salvation history" of the Bakkerverse, that just as the World sets the ends of all within its embrace God set a Final Cause for the World itself. Aristotle, IIRC, thought of the Prime Mover as the Perfection/Good to which all mortal things moved toward. So then in turn the Final Cause of Earwa is the axis on which the rest of the Inside (at the least) may turn.

Realization of Earwa-as-Axis-Mundi may be how the Progenitors of the Inchoroi ended up finding Earwa. It might be possible to use machine learning or some other pattern recognition process to fill in the missing causal vector. You cannot trace final causes in the usual scientific way of determining interest-relative causation. or so I suspect, but you can potentially map the influence of Final Causes and then subsequently use that as the basis of the compass to find the Promised Land...or maybe that's all BS...

I don't know if Bakker thought of all this in quite these terms, but I do suspect he went back to the Ancient Greeks and at the least the European Idealists for his metaphysics.

Well, in a way, Final Cause, as much as we really don't think of it as such, is the "main cause."  Think about it in terms of making something.  Like, the Final Cause of a chair is the whole reason a chair exists.  Final Cause is "almost" a way that "future" dictates that "past."  Rather, it is the conditioning of the imagined future onto the present which then dictates the progression of past to present and then so then future.

Yeah it's a good way to resolve the free will vs destiny problem of Earwa. There is an End to History, but as a Final Cause it is similar not only to the ends of the physical world but also to how the ends of the ensouled mortals determine their bodies' movements.

And b/c the Bakkerverse is Idealistic & Panpsychic (at least if the Monadology theory is correct) one could even say the ends of "physicalist" entities is exactly akin to the ends of the ensouled.

What comes After does determine what comes Before, just not in the sense of the Future being extant in the Block Universe sense.

Hm, this is all quite interesting. I've previously tried (and failed) in expressing my belief about the concept that the No-God is less "something the Inchoroi summon into the World" than it is "something that comes to the World, and happens to be facilitated by things like the Inchoroi".

To put it another way, the coming of the No-God is comparable to something like, say, Ragnarok or heat death -- it is an inevitability of Earwa's (meta)physics that the No-God rise, or perhaps more specifically, that it fulfills the "prophecy" of purging the World of all but the 144,000 souls doomed to survive (is that a prophecy? who foretold it?).

In this sense, and assuming I'm right (which is a big assumption, I'm not even assuming it lol), does this mean that the No-God then could be said to act as a Final Cause?

Because it seems to me that the No-God doesn't just get summoned all willy-nilly, but that it was deliberately trying  to get into the World.

It also sorta jives with the strange revelation by Kellhus about the fact that one day, the Inchoroi must win (which, to me, is another way of saying the No-God must rise).

But, why must the Inchoroi win, if not to summon the No-God and bring about the Eschaton?
Title: Re: The ancient philosophers and "anagogic power"?
Post by: Wilshire on April 23, 2019, 11:19:01 am
The 144k was Ganus(sp?) The Blind, it was a chapter header, and it sounded like it was relating events about the inchoroi homeworld,

Kellhus equated the Inchoroi winning and the No-God rising/winning. I'm not so sure these two are the same. The two seem intertwined, but as the Consult does not control the NG and it seems to otherwise do whatever it wants, I don't necessarily believe they are on the same team.

I see the NG as more of a force of nature than a conscious entity. Like an earthquake - the pressure builds and builds until some breaks loose and unleashes all the stored up energy.
Title: Re: The ancient philosophers and "anagogic power"?
Post by: sciborg2 on April 23, 2019, 01:49:40 pm
When you say pressure builds, are you saying causality in the Bakkerverse can be understood just in the usual A -> B -> C sense?

Or is the pressure building because Time moves toward the End dictated by the Final Cause? I suspect that Bakker had a connection between authorial intent and Final Cause of the Bakkerverse through its own Salvation History. From what I've been taught about Salvation History, everything bends toward the return of Christ to Earth at which point "anything can happen".

Similarly, we've reach the end of Bakker's planned storyline with the rise of the No-God - which may be the end of Fate on Earwa.
Title: Re: The ancient philosophers and "anagogic power"?
Post by: H on April 23, 2019, 01:59:51 pm
Similarly, we've reach the end of Bakker's planned storyline with the rise of the No-God - which may be the end of Fate on Earwa.

Well, since I've taken a likening to Bakker via Hegel (in Heidegger's language), I don't think it's far fetched to entertain the posibility that the "trilogy" (that is, PoN, tAE and TNG) are akin to Hegel's thesis, antithesis, synthesis.  Which, Hegel actuallyed never used those terms, rather, concrete, abstract, absolute (not a coincidence in my mind).

So, I don't think we are at the end, rather we are at the inflection point here.  What is the synthesis?  A partly meaningful world?  I don't think the thrid part is simply the enumeration of the No-God's "victory" rather it would be something like Mimara's genesis into the vessel of synthesis.
Title: Re: The ancient philosophers and "anagogic power"?
Post by: sciborg2 on April 23, 2019, 03:15:09 pm
Apologies but I'm gonna need a review of Hegel and his relation to the Bakkerverse...
Title: Re: The ancient philosophers and "anagogic power"?
Post by: H on April 23, 2019, 03:21:40 pm
Apologies but I'm gonna need a review of Hegel and his relation to the Bakkerverse...

Well, at base level, where we arrived at in my "Souls" thread is sort of a bad take on actual Hegel.  I too though really need to brush up more on his actual philosophy myself.
Title: Re: The ancient philosophers and "anagogic power"?
Post by: Madness on April 24, 2019, 11:21:25 am
World-Soul and Kahiht (sp?) have some obvious one-to-one relationships to Hegel.

Drive-by interjection ;).