The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => The Prince of Nothing => The Thousandfold Thought => Topic started by: What Came Before on April 25, 2013, 06:11:59 pm

Title: Seswatha's Escape
Post by: What Came Before on April 25, 2013, 06:11:59 pm
Quote from: Truth Shines
I'm putting this topic here since this first appears in TTT.

I'm referring to the episode where Seswatha was nailed to the wall of Dagliash, "tacked to ponder the glory of the Consult."  Did I miss something?  When and how was he captured?  And how did he survive and escape?  Anyone remember reading anything about that?
Title: Re: Seswatha's Escape
Post by: What Came Before on April 25, 2013, 06:12:06 pm
Quote from: lockesnow
Didn't Mekeritrig let him down?
Title: Re: Seswatha's Escape
Post by: What Came Before on April 25, 2013, 06:12:13 pm
Quote from: Madness
I can't recall correctly - which is odd - but I feel like lockesnow's right.

I just don't remember where we heard that or if it was just Westeros speculation canonized in our minds...
Title: Re: Seswatha's Escape
Post by: What Came Before on April 25, 2013, 06:12:29 pm
Quote from: Wilshire
I was never a part of Westeros, and I cannot remember a single instance or depiction of Seswatha being let down. Though I'm not implying that I didn't miss it, which is surely possible.
Title: Re: Seswatha's Escape
Post by: What Came Before on April 25, 2013, 06:12:42 pm
Quote from: Truth Shines
Quote from: Madness
I can't recall correctly - which is odd - but I feel like lockesnow's right.

I just don't remember where we heard that or if it was just Westeros speculation canonized in our minds...

I'm thinking the latter here.

Cet'ingira put the Agonic collar on Seswatha and tortured the hell out of him to get the location of the Heron Spear.  I don't recall reading anything about letting Seswatha go.  Given how important Seswatha was, it was just hard for me to imagine the Consult letting him slip away.  You'd think he would have gotten the VIP shuttle straight to Golgotterath.
Title: Re: Seswatha's Escape
Post by: What Came Before on April 25, 2013, 06:12:56 pm
Quote from: Madness
I don't think anyone is meant to leave the Wall of the Dead, homies.

Seswatha got down, somehow, and continued on to be a G.

Struck a deal?

Fought his way out?

Appealled to the lighter side of Cet'ingira's madness?
Title: Re: Seswatha's Escape
Post by: What Came Before on April 25, 2013, 06:13:03 pm
Quote from: Wilshire
maybe its just a metaphor and they let people down all the time if they dont die.

"Well times up, your free to go."
Title: Re: Seswatha's Escape
Post by: What Came Before on April 25, 2013, 06:13:10 pm
Quote from: lockesnow
Maybe Seswatha lied?

Maybe Nau Cayuti's torture was transposed into this scene, so all the horror he experienced at the hands of the Consult--the emotional impact of that--was channeled into this invented scene of Seswatha's.
Title: Re: Seswatha's Escape
Post by: What Came Before on April 25, 2013, 06:13:17 pm
Quote from: Callan S.
Quote from: Madness
Appealled to the lighter side of Cet'ingira's madness?
Possibly he offered so much more to remember, alive.


Quote from: Wilshire
maybe its just a metaphor and they let people down all the time if they dont die.

"Well times up, your free to go."
"Always look on the bright side of life *whistle*"
Title: Re: Seswatha's Escape
Post by: What Came Before on April 25, 2013, 06:13:31 pm
Quote from: Wilshire
Quote from: Callan S.
"Always look on the bright side of life *whistle*"

This. This exactly.
Title: Re: Seswatha's Escape
Post by: What Came Before on April 25, 2013, 06:13:36 pm
Quote from: Borric
Maybe he had help from a Wathi doll  :D
Title: Re: Seswatha's Escape
Post by: What Came Before on April 25, 2013, 06:13:44 pm
Quote from: Callan S.
Batman.

The goddamn Batman!
Title: Re: Seswatha's Escape
Post by: What Came Before on April 25, 2013, 06:13:52 pm
Quote from: Eramun
Quote
Quote from: lockesnow
Maybe Seswatha lied?

Maybe Nau Cayuti's torture was transposed into this scene, so all the horror he experienced at the hands of the Consult--the emotional impact of that--was channeled into this invented scene of Seswatha's.

Isn't there some speculation as to who fathered Cayuti in the Judging Eye, when Akka's dreams expand/evolve more and more?

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Seswatha's Escape
Post by: What Came Before on April 25, 2013, 06:14:00 pm
Quote from: Madness
I can't remember the thread right now - I'm almost sure one thread discusses, not as its theme, but in detail some thoughts on Nau-Cayuti's lineage.

The question as I remember it came down to whether there is evidence that the Anasurimbors were of the Few before Seswatha slept with Celmomas' Queen.
Title: Re: Seswatha's Escape
Post by: What Came Before on April 25, 2013, 06:14:08 pm
Quote from: Wilshire
This might be the droid you are looking for:
http://secondapocalypse.forumer.com/infidelity-and-the-high-kings-of-kuniuri-t1209317-10.html
Title: Re: Seswatha's Escape
Post by: What Came Before on April 25, 2013, 06:14:14 pm
Quote from: Madness
Thank you, good sir.
Title: Re: Seswatha's Escape
Post by: Triskele on November 29, 2013, 07:04:39 am
I reread a little tidbit that I think I've read before but had not properly pondered.

Supposedly all of the copies of The Sagas were at Sauglish, and all but one were destroyed when the city was sacked.  The one that was not was delivered by Seswatha to the scribes of the Three Seas.  Uh...could not Seswatha have written history how he wanted on his journey?
Title: Re: Seswatha's Escape
Post by: locke on November 29, 2013, 07:25:59 am
well or twist it and let go of the semantics of 'book'

And think, Nil Giccis supplied four copies of the the Isuphyris to Sauglish:

Translation, nil giccis sent four nonmen eljus to curate a library. ;)
Title: Re: Seswatha's Escape
Post by: Madness on November 29, 2013, 01:43:38 pm
Uh...

I reread a little tidbit that I think I've read before but had not properly pondered.

Supposedly all of the copies of The Sagas were at Sauglish, and all but one were destroyed when the city was sacked.  The one that was not was delivered by Seswatha to the scribes of the Three Seas.  Uh...could not Seswatha have written history how he wanted on his journey?

Brilliant and...

well or twist it and let go of the semantics of 'book'

And think, Nil Giccis supplied four copies of the the Isuphyris to Sauglish:

Translation, nil giccis sent four nonmen eljus to curate a library. ;)

Brilliant.

Thanks you two.
Title: Re: Seswatha's Escape
Post by: Borque on November 29, 2013, 03:29:06 pm
Supposedly all of the copies of The Sagas were at Sauglish, and all but one were destroyed when the city was sacked.  The one that was not was delivered by Seswatha to the scribes of the Three Seas.  Uh...could not Seswatha have written history how he wanted on his journey?
Yes. Yes, he could have. I like this idea.

Only, it was the Isûphiryas and not the Sagas that he saved a copy of. Which means that he possibly has rewritten ancient Nonman history, not his own.
Title: Re: Seswatha's Escape
Post by: Wilshire on November 29, 2013, 03:46:50 pm
All good things.

Its all about the Darkness that Comes Before isn't it? This is why one must come before ALL things to become Absolute. Otherwise, you can't ever be sure you arn't still somehow controlled by what came before you.
Title: Re: Seswatha's Escape
Post by: Triskele on November 29, 2013, 06:26:09 pm
Yes. Yes, he could have. I like this idea.

Only, it was the Isûphiryas and not the Sagas that he saved a copy of. Which means that he possibly has rewritten ancient Nonman history, not his own.

If that is so, there's an error on the wiki timeline online.  That's where I stumbled upon this, and it said that it was The Sagas.  Anyone got their TTT appendix handy to clarify?
Title: Re: Seswatha's Escape
Post by: Borque on November 29, 2013, 07:14:30 pm
Yes. Yes, he could have. I like this idea.

Only, it was the Isûphiryas and not the Sagas that he saved a copy of. Which means that he possibly has rewritten ancient Nonman history, not his own.

If that is so, there's an error on the wiki timeline online.  That's where I stumbled upon this, and it said that it was The Sagas.  Anyone got their TTT appendix handy to clarify?
Checked the appendix now. It is the Isûphiryas. It's in the Isûphiryas entry.
Title: Re: Seswatha's Escape
Post by: Triskele on November 29, 2013, 07:53:09 pm
Well, thanks for getting to the bottom of it.  Not quite as cool of a theory in light of that, but I suppose it still remains possible that Seswatha could have fucked with history.  Perhaps not to the same magnitude that it could have been with The Sagas.
Title: Re: Seswatha's Escape
Post by: Madness on November 29, 2013, 08:07:51 pm
I think it's a pretty key variable, Trisk. And it's going to become even more apparent in TUC when we're subjected to society's individual-held common conceptions of Nonmen.

I mean, the Mandate and Swayal at least dream the Dreams to corroborate some of it. But now we have another possible historical deception to flog endlessly :)).

Think. Everytime a character wonders after the Nonmen we can cry false!

Wow... is it wrong of me to want to make a drinking game for TSA? Lol - play socially with the audiobooks ;).
Title: Re: Seswatha's Escape
Post by: Borque on November 29, 2013, 09:13:25 pm
I mean, the Mandate and Swayal at least dream the Dreams to corroborate some of it.
But Seswatha selected, and possibly edited, the dreams too. So nothing is certain.
Title: Re: Seswatha's Escape
Post by: Madness on November 29, 2013, 09:45:11 pm
Excellent. Sweet, sweet ambiguity.

Lol - I'd love to see Achamian dream those Dreams. Seswatha editing the Isûphiryas or, better yet, the preparing of his Heart for Grasping :o...
Title: Re: Seswatha's Escape
Post by: Triskele on November 29, 2013, 10:09:23 pm
Yeah, we might be getting inconsistent dreams and inconsistent histories from Seswatha's hand.  All bets are off.
Title: Re: Seswatha's Escape
Post by: Borque on November 29, 2013, 10:43:14 pm
I love the idea of Seswatha potentially being a bad guy, and that we still don't even know who the f the heroes are. Good work, Mr Bakker.
Title: Re: Seswatha's Escape
Post by: Francis Buck on November 30, 2013, 11:56:24 pm
It's one of my more cherished pet-theories
(click to show/hide)
, and then realized that the Consult was more or less correct in their goal of wanting to stop it, at least in spirit, but he had a better way of going about it; the Dunyain. The Dunyain, however, by their nature, would "forget" about the past (and the Gnosis), so he had to create the Mandate so that the history would be remembered. Eventually the two would cross paths (see: Akka and Kellhus) and combine their purposes. Seswatha wants to end damnation, but he also wants to stop the Consult.
Title: Re: Seswatha's Escape
Post by: Triskele on December 01, 2013, 01:31:16 am
It's one of my more cherished pet-theories that Seswatha looked into the Inverse Fire and saw what Damnation was, and then realized that the Consult was more or less correct in their goal of wanting to stop it, at least in spirit, but he had a better way of going about it; the Dunyain. The Dunyain, however, by their nature, would "forget" about the past (and the Gnosis), so he had to create the Mandate so that the history would be remembered. Eventually the two would cross paths (see: Akka and Kellhus) and combine their purposes. Seswatha wants to end damnation, but he also wants to stop the Consult.


It's like Seswatha grasped the Millionfold Thought. 
Title: Re: Seswatha's Escape
Post by: Francis Buck on December 01, 2013, 02:03:47 am
How do you mean?
Title: Re: Seswatha's Escape
Post by: Triskele on December 01, 2013, 03:27:29 am
How do you mean?

Just joking about how far into the future Seswatha would have needed to have seen to plan the Dunyain and the Mandate meeting up 2,000 years later.
Title: Re: Seswatha's Escape
Post by: Francis Buck on December 01, 2013, 04:21:49 am
How do you mean?

Just joking about how far into the future Seswatha would have needed to have seen to plan the Dunyain and the Mandate meeting up 2,000 years later.

Hah, true enough. Just to be clear, I certainly should've mentioned that I was presuming the Seswatha homunculus still possesses sufficient volition to guide the Mandate towards the necessary direction (which I definitely think is happening on some level). This works with Kellhus hypnotizing Akka ("I must speak with him"). As far as we've been told, Kellhus does indeed speak with Seswatha, or something reminiscent of him, and from that he's granted the Gnosis, which unless Kellhus is lying (always a possibility), means that in some way Seswatha willingly gave the Gnosis to a Dunyain. It also has ties with Akka's ambiguous and timely dreams. As Bakker said (not verbatim), we should be more concerned with the timing of the dreams, rather than the content, so much. Which, to me, implies that Seswatha is on some level intentionally guiding what dreams Akka has, in order for him to properly grasp the situation at hand and act accordingly. This also works with Fate and Akka. There's nothing special about him, really. He was simply the right man in the right place at the right time. He's the one that Seswatha needed to enact the plan (whatever it is), the one who happened to fill the right set of circumstances. And this, too, ties into an idea others have proposed (that I very much like) regarding Kellhus being the Messiah; it's not something a particular person was necessarily destined for, but instead it's a set a parameters that, once filled, makes that person the Messiah. Or in Akka's case, the Whoreson of Fate, the Chosen One of Seswatha.
Title: Re: Seswatha's Escape
Post by: Madness on December 01, 2013, 01:39:18 pm
It's one of my more cherished pet-theories that Seswatha looked into the
(click to show/hide)
, at least in spirit, but he had a better way of going about it; the Dunyain.

FB, I'm not sure how we should distinguish the Atrocity Tales but spoiler warning (this is TTT). Just notation. Thread's been good.
Title: Re: Seswatha's Escape
Post by: Francis Buck on December 01, 2013, 03:17:31 pm
It's one of my more cherished pet-theories that
(click to show/hide)
, and then realized that the Consult was more or less correct in their goal of wanting to stop it, at least in spirit, but he had a better way of going about it; the Dunyain. The Dunyain, however, by their nature, would "forget" about the past (and the Gnosis), so he had to create the Mandate so that the history would be remembered. Eventually the two would cross paths (see: Akka and Kellhus) and combine their purposes. Seswatha wants to end damnation, but he also wants to stop the Consult.
Title: Re: Seswatha's Escape
Post by: Madness on December 01, 2013, 03:35:01 pm
Lol, I've assumed you meant to hit modify and modified your original post accordingly ;).
Title: Re: Seswatha's Escape
Post by: mrganondorf on February 20, 2014, 04:16:02 am
i have nothing to add about how ses escaped, but one thing sticks out to me about this event: what about compulsions?

we know akka resisted the scarlet spires compulsions because of seswathat within, but how did it go with seswatha? 

possibilities:
1) ses told them everything because there is no way to resist compulsions other than being possessed by an ancient and powerful sorcerer (would he have planned for this eventuality?)
2) ses resists the compulsions via superior skills - would be the first we know of
3) ses resists the compulsion via possession - who moves the unmoved mover?
4) ses was not compelled - why would mekeritrig miss this opportunity? he's already got the collar on him

i think this is significant because i'm counting on someone in tuc or later to appear compelled but really be free, cast doubt on the efficacy of compulsions