The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => The Prince of Nothing => The Thousandfold Thought => Topic started by: What Came Before on April 25, 2013, 06:41:14 pm

Title: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: What Came Before on April 25, 2013, 06:41:14 pm
Quote from: The Sharmat
Anyone ever noticed this passage: "He (Moenghus) raised a cloth, pressed it into the pit of his eyes. When he withdrew it, two rose-coloured stains marked the fabric."

If this guy is a Cishaurim, he's been eyeless for years. Why then are his sockets bleeding?
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: What Came Before on April 25, 2013, 06:41:21 pm
Quote from: Sideris
Well, he was eyeless when he spoke to Xerius, and that was two years previous in the timeline. Empty sockets could weep blood, me thinks.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: What Came Before on April 25, 2013, 06:41:27 pm
Quote from: lockesnow
well of course he is.  When he left Ishual, he joined a Scranc community and 'rode' them all the way south to the Scylvendi.  He undoubtedly learned the Sranc language in an hour or two, raped a few Sranc men, children and women a few hours after that, and thus seized control of the group.  He also probably learned about the Inchoroi from the Sranc, long before Kellhus did, but no one ever seems to consider much of this gap between Ishual and Utemot for Moenghus, even though that gap nearly killed Kellhus (who traveled a journey that is mysterious and suspicious for its complete lack of Sranc).
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: What Came Before on April 25, 2013, 06:41:35 pm
Quote from: Madness
Very good point, lockesnow. The Sranc do possess a modicum of society.

Also, Cnaiur comments in his TDTCB flashback of aiding Moenghus in patricide that it was strange that Sranc kept a prisoner.

Though, my personal interpretation until now had been that Moenghus had barely managed to convince them to let him live.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: What Came Before on April 25, 2013, 06:41:41 pm
Quote from: Callan S.
Some wounds don't heal.

Or can be opened again. As a proof.

Not saying it couldn't be a fabrication. Just saying to walk the probability trance and walk down both probabilities.

But to bank against one path, the issue Kellhus estimated what that Moenghus had traveled down a dead end path in losing his eyes - he could no longer see into other men, nor had the waters to make a replacement magic, presumably. That's why he wasn't ultra controlling after all these years (merely triggering a holy war). Moenghus, a Dunyain, actually failed in his mission. No small event.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: What Came Before on April 25, 2013, 06:41:47 pm
Quote from: The Sharmat
Quote from: Sideris
Well, he was eyeless when he spoke to Xerius, and that was two years previous in the timeline. Empty sockets could weep blood, me thinks.
Unless 'Mallahet' was a counterfeit Moenghus.

And Kellhus' journey wasn't Sranc free at all. Cnaiur found him amongst Sranc corpses and the remains of his escort.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: What Came Before on April 25, 2013, 06:41:53 pm
Quote from: Sideris
Mm, perhaps it was a replacement.

But as for Kellhus' flight from Atrithau to the Utemot lands, yeah, he arrived in Atrithau more or less okay after fleeing the battle with the Nonman, but it seemed quite the hellish ride from then on. Wasn't the burial mound surrounded with deep ranks of corpses? Not just a littering here and there but literal piles of dead Sranc. I'd say he encountered plenty.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: What Came Before on April 25, 2013, 06:42:00 pm
Quote from: lockesnow
Quote from: The Sharmat
Quote from: Sideris
Well, he was eyeless when he spoke to Xerius, and that was two years previous in the timeline. Empty sockets could weep blood, me thinks.
Unless 'Mallahet' was a counterfeit Moenghus.

And Kellhus' journey wasn't Sranc free at all. Cnaiur found him amongst Sranc corpses and the remains of his escort.
love the Nerdanel esque idea that Mallahet was a counterfeit moenghus.  Perhaps Moe never lost his eyes at all. ;)

Kellhus journey was Sranc free through the most Sranc infested lands he traveled.  From Ishual to Atraithau there are no human habitations, the lands ought to be overrun with Sranc.  Leweth lived at the outskirts of Atraithau territory.  Atraithau is the 'beginning' of human habitation, it's only after he and Leweth encounter Sranc and then on his journey from Atraithau to the Utemot that he encounters Sranc.

(question was Conphas a prisoner of the Fanim at some point in childhood?)

The first crucial event of the holy war is the war that neutralizes the Scylvendi.  Moenghus could be guiding the council of war that unmans Cnaiur, specifically to unman Cnaiur so as to send him back home appropriately conditioned to leave his home with Kellhus in a year or two.

From the battlefield, Moenghus scampers up towards Ishual.  Once he's past the glacier, he can start sending dreams.  He assaults them with dreams until Kellhus leaves.  Once Kellhus is safely away he demolishes Ishual and kills everyone inside.

Then he returns to Kellhus, who he figures would be stuck at a stream or something, and yup, Kellhus is stuck at a little creek for a couple days.  Moenghus keeps the Sranc away and shadows Kell all the way down to Leweth.  Once he makes sure that Leweth will take over, he scampers off to round up a herd of Sranc. 

Now the real question in this particular heresy is whether or not Moe was conspiring with Mek or not?  Perhaps Mek was attracted to the area by all the odd Sranc behavior, perhaps he and Moe had a powwow scheduled?  In any event, Mek not killing Kell, instead just blasting him away with a concussive blast was... interesting.  I'm presuming some conspiracy between Mek and Moe, and Moe wanted Kell educated/disillusioned. 

Moe then left instructions with the Sranc to herd Kell to the Utemot and then skedaddled back to civilization to do his mallahet powow with the Emperor.  (it's possible Moe helped herd Kell to Cnaiur, but I think he may have left Sranc in charge of that).  Once together, Moe & Cnaiur really have no choice but head to the emperor, which, it just so happens that the holy war events that Moe and Maithanet have put together are gathering there as well.  But getting Kell to the Utemot is extremely difficult with way too many variables to believe that Moe would leave the path as unconditioned as it seems to the reader (and Kellhus) on the first pass to be.  But when you consider the coincidences was this path really unconditioned?  Does it have the hallmarks of a Dunyain conditioned path?  Or does it have the hallmarks of the world conspiring?:

1)Kell encountered no Sranc through his wilderness journey, his first encounter is with another human.

2)Kell is brought to the point of death only to be fortuitously rescued and nursed back to health by a lonely hermit who can give a fairly good preliminary lesson on the world (and language) without ever threatening Kell's life.  had Kell arrived in Atrithau he'd have probably been killed outright on general suspicion etc.

3) Kell encounters Sranc that herd him to a nonman mansion with a copper tree.  At the nonman mansion is THE nonman, Mekeritrig himself.  Mek chooses to duel with Kellhus, and then lets Kellhus go.  A prize like the Anasurimbor returning and he just lets him go? suspicious.

4) Kell travels from Atraithau to Utemot.  Everyone dies.  Every Sranc chasing him dies and he nearly dies on the tomb of Cnaiur's father: almost like he was positioned with extreme care and forethought.  Cnaiur is strangely drawn to the tomb that day...

5) Cnaiur's world and people have been effectively destroyed, essentially freeing Cnaiur, if properly motivated, to take Kellhus to the rest of the holy war.  And the proper motive was provided by the dreams in the first place that drove Kellhus to leave Ishual, the opportunity for revenge on Moenghus.

It's all a very conditioned path:  And the author even tells us repeatedly through Kellhus' pov that Kellhus continually perceives himself to be walking conditioned ground.  But the author tells us that later, few people apply the principle backwards.

The most basic question is: Why would Moenghus condition the entire holy war but leave Kellhus' path to the holy war entirely unconditioned and subject to the slightest whim of circumstance to go entirely wrong?  If Moenghus conditioned the holy war he absolutely must have conditioned every step of Kellhus path to get to the war.  Just apply Kellhus conclusions backwards and you realize how much Moe must have been involved in getting Kell to the holy war.

Crackpot: Moe decided to hide in Ishual, and per Nerdanel, he's been directing things from there ever since, he hid himself behind water in the cave with kellhus, and the entire time was just projecting himself onto a cishaurim servant/body double: same with Mallahet.  Think of it as the meta-water.  If the Cish can do the stuff Mallahet showed off, Moe should be able to make it go meta.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: What Came Before on April 25, 2013, 06:42:08 pm
Quote from: Curethan
Moenghus was very likely sending Cnaiur dreams - Cnaiur awakens from a dream of Moe when he sets out to his father's cairn.  But Moe couldn't assault Ishual via dreams, because they killed all the dunyain that he could contact when Khellus left. (You have to know someone to contact them via the cants).

Imo, sranc are more likely to be found on the borders, there they can inflict the violence they were made for.  Prior to that its a question of some sranc crossing Khellus' trail... the north is a big place and sranc seem to like crawling down holes when they aren't hunting (see TJE).

Moenghus has form for acting through agents and staying in the shadows.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: What Came Before on April 25, 2013, 06:42:14 pm
Quote from: jogrady
Xerius, when being told by his mother how foolish it was to send Conphas against the Scylvandi, says(thinks) that he knows his plan would succeed with "impossible certainty". And it must succeed in order for Cnaiur and Kell to enter the south and subsequent holy war. Moe?
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: What Came Before on April 25, 2013, 06:42:21 pm
Quote from: Sideris
Wouldn't that fit more under the feelings of the world conspires? I mean, you could use Moe as a boogeyman and have the Holy War start screaming, 'Moe wills it!' in their charges. :P
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: What Came Before on April 25, 2013, 06:42:27 pm
Quote from: lockesnow
Quote from: Sideris
Wouldn't that fit more under the feelings of the world conspires? I mean, you could use Moe as a boogeyman and have the Holy War start screaming, 'Moe wills it!' in their charges. :P
That's the question right? The book more or less tells us the world conspires.  The book also tells us that Moe had one project for twenty years, creating a holy war so that Kellhus could take over.

That makes me question, if Moe conditioned the ground such that The Entire World was primed for Kellhus ascension, why would he leave Kellhus' path to the Holy War Unconditioned?

Why go to all that effort at constructing the holy war, to leave the most important piece completely subject to chance?   Why leave Kellhus to the whims of "the world conspires" when he did not leave the world itself to conspire?
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: What Came Before on April 25, 2013, 06:42:32 pm
Quote from: The Sharmat
I have created a monster.

Don't see how Moenghus could send Cnaiur dreams though. Unless the Psukhe functions differently in this regard, you have to both know the dreamer AND where they are while they're dreaming. As the Scylvendi are nomads, Moenghus would have no way of knowing where within the Utemot territories Cnaiur was.

I find the idea of a meta-Psukhe interesting (though I'd like to come up with an alternate name. The meta prefix is too analytical for the Psukhe), but since intellect isn't the key to the Psukhe I don't see why Moenghus would be any more likely to uncover such a thing than any other Cishaurim.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: What Came Before on April 25, 2013, 06:42:38 pm
Quote from: lockesnow
Quote from: The Sharmat
I have created a monster.

Don't see how Moenghus could send Cnaiur dreams though. Unless the Psukhe functions differently in this regard, you have to both know the dreamer AND where they are while they're dreaming. As the Scylvendi are nomads, Moenghus would have no way of knowing where within the Utemot territories Cnaiur was.

Moe could send him dreams if he was there at the Utemot and knew exactly where Nayu was.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: What Came Before on April 25, 2013, 06:42:43 pm
Quote from: Curethan
Moe gave us the tidbit that he had to know the dreamers.  We don't know how the psukhe version of dream comunication might differ from the gnostic cants in other ways.  Remember that wasname (the Zuem sorcerer) used artefacts to help with his comms so he could do it awake...  and Moeghus excelled at that particular skillset of the Psukhe.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: What Came Before on April 25, 2013, 06:42:48 pm
Quote from: lockesnow
ahh, but we don't know for certain that Moe did not excel at all the skillsets of the Psukhe.  That's just a Kellhus conjecture we take for fact.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: What Came Before on April 25, 2013, 06:42:55 pm
Quote from: Curethan
True, just speculating on his dream manipulation skill set. 

Seems unlikely that Moe would have great power in the Psukhe based on what we know of how it works and I don't see any profit or reason for Moe to hide his strength if it were greater than he presented.  If he had secretly mastered the other metaphysics despite being blind, he would bear the Mark, so that seems unlikely too.
I think it most likely that he could have deepened the arts that he could use (like dream walking) beyond what he admitted or we were shown.
Certainly Kellhus didn't risk a sorcerous showdown...

If you look at how Kellhus accessed Akka's inner Seswatha and how his dreams changed after that, we can't really rule out any level of dream manipulation imo. 
Dream communication + cants of compulsion + dunyain manipulation = endless manipulatitive possibilities.
Add to that the uncertain status of prophecy (predictions of the future born of darkness invisible to the consious mind) and how that might be connected to dreams and outside agencies and that really is an open question.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: What Came Before on April 25, 2013, 06:43:01 pm
Quote from: Sideris
Quote from: lockesnow
Quote from: Sideris
Wouldn't that fit more under the feelings of the world conspires? I mean, you could use Moe as a boogeyman and have the Holy War start screaming, 'Moe wills it!' in their charges. :P
That's the question right? The book more or less tells us the world conspires.  The book also tells us that Moe had one project for twenty years, creating a holy war so that Kellhus could take over.

That makes me question, if Moe conditioned the ground such that The Entire World was primed for Kellhus ascension, why would he leave Kellhus' path to the Holy War Unconditioned?

Why go to all that effort at constructing the holy war, to leave the most important piece completely subject to chance?   Why leave Kellhus to the whims of "the world conspires" when he did not leave the world itself to conspire?

Because the author wills it!
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: What Came Before on April 25, 2013, 06:43:07 pm
Quote from: lockesnow
Quote from: Sideris
Because the author wills it!
Which I've always thought was one of the meta-concepts of the series, Bakker playing with the willful suspension of disbelief when engaging in an entirely fictive world.  The things we are willing to believe in a fiction universe are tools to exploit in showing us the deceptions we depend upon, right?

Our willingness to read Bakker's novels is proof of our complicity and guilt.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: What Came Before on April 25, 2013, 06:43:13 pm
Quote from: Callan S.
Quote
why would he leave Kellhus' path to the Holy War Unconditioned?

Why go to all that effort at constructing the holy war, to leave the most important piece completely subject to chance? Why leave Kellhus to the whims of "the world conspires" when he did not leave the world itself to conspire?
I don't really understand that last sentence?

And in terms of the path to the holy war, well, Moe screwed up on losing his eyes. Why can he just condition anything he wants.

Besides, if Kelhus fell, he could provoke others to leave (well, till he ran out of Dunyain he knew of).

It'd be funny if, secretly, some other Dunyain had left before, carked it and Moe has gone 'Ah screw it, I'll settle for my son then'. Or there's a pile of frozen dunyain under various tree's, that Lewith (right spelling), imperceptive oaf, didn't find!
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: What Came Before on April 25, 2013, 06:43:18 pm
Quote from: Imparrhas
Quote from: lockesnow
(question was Conphas a prisoner of the Fanim at some point in childhood?)
He was a ward slash hostage.

Quote from: lockesnow
If Moenghus conditioned the holy war he absolutely must have conditioned every step of Kellhus path to get to the war.
I don't see any reason to think otherwise.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: What Came Before on April 25, 2013, 06:43:31 pm
Quote from: lockesnow
Quote from: Imparrhas
Quote from: lockesnow
(question was Conphas a prisoner of the Fanim at some point in childhood?)
He was a ward slash hostage.

I thought so.  Doesn't that indicate then that Moe probably had access to Conphas as well as Fanayal?  The circumstances of the Scylvendi destruction as a result of Conphas' insights (insights implanted by Moe), are perfectly timed for Kellhus and for the holy war.

That even brings into question Cnaiur's survival, he was so well positioned, and heard so perfectly that it made him an absolutely perfectly forged tool for Kellhus to use.  Could Moe have been at Kiyuth, directing events from both sides as well as positioning Cnaiur for Kellhus?  Some of the ways Cnaiur is cut down in the council of war by the other chieftans now seem suspicious to me.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: What Came Before on April 25, 2013, 06:43:35 pm
Quote from: lockesnow
Quote from: Imparrhas
Quote from: lockesnow
(question was Conphas a prisoner of the Fanim at some point in childhood?)
He was a ward slash hostage.

I thought so.  Doesn't that indicate then that Moe probably had access to Conphas as well as Fanayal?  The circumstances of the Scylvendi destruction as a result of Conphas' insights (insights implanted by Moe), are perfectly timed for Kellhus and for the holy war.

That even brings into question Cnaiur's survival, he was so well positioned, and heard so perfectly that it made him an absolutely perfectly forged tool for Kellhus to use.  Could Moe have been at Kiyuth, directing events from both sides as well as positioning Cnaiur for Kellhus?  Some of the ways Cnaiur is cut down in the council of war by the other chieftans now seem suspicious to me.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: What Came Before on April 25, 2013, 06:43:41 pm
Quote from: Curethan
Conphas was very likely conditioned by Moe as part of the TTT - don't forget he forged the holy war.  This is explicit by both Moe and Kellhus' admission.
This is a branch of speculation I have been down before.  Moe (as Mallahet) was present at the court of the Fanim lord that 'fostered' Conphas.

I don't really see why 'the world conspires' should neccesarily mean anything more than another way of saying that men are relatively powerless before the weight of history.  A conspiricy necesitates other conspiritors anyway, surely?
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: What Came Before on April 25, 2013, 06:43:47 pm
Quote from: lockesnow
perhaps, but isn't fate often conflated with 'the world' as well?  So to say The world conspires is similar to saying "fate conspires".  So I guess I'm saying that "fate" is legion and may not therefore need other conspirators.

Speaking of Conphas, isn't it fascinating that the two world born men who most effectively resisted Kellhus were men who were conditioned by Moe first?
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: What Came Before on April 25, 2013, 06:43:53 pm
Quote from: Twooars
The destruction of the Scylvendi at Kiyuth was not essential for Kellhus to join and lead the holy war, IMO. My understanding was that Moenghus realized that he cannot possibly condition every step of the way for Kellhus. He depended on Kellhus being Dunyain enough to overcome circumstances as and when they arose. Kellhus gambles (or makes educated guesses) on quite a few things (choosing Cnaiur over Conphas, Saubon and the Shrial knights, revealing himself to the skin spies, the Carathay desert), which means Moenghus relied on him to improvise at many points during his journey. If Moenghus conditioned everything, Kellhus would have had to follow just one path, with no choices to speak of. Cnaiur was crucial to Kellhus in a lot of ways, but the point of Kellhus being Dunyain is that he would have found another way if for eg. Conphas ended up leading the holy war. And I don't see why Conphas needed to be conditioned, if anything he was the only one in the entire series who was completely resistant to conditioning by Kellhus, so how is it likely that he was conditioned by Moenghus?
Besides, the description of the probability trance implies that the Dunyain can't really plan the fine details, so there is no way Moenghus could have conditioned Cnaiur to chance upon a wounded Kellhus. The probability trance does not work like that, IMO.
But I quite like the 'world conspires' angle (which might mean 'fate' or the Gods influencing fate)...
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: What Came Before on April 25, 2013, 06:43:58 pm
Quote from: lockesnow
Quote from: Twooars
Moenghus could have conditioned Cnaiur to chance upon a wounded Kellhus. The probability trance does not work like that, IMO.
But I quite like the 'world conspires' angle (which might mean 'fate' or the Gods influencing fate)...

My assertion is that Moenghus shadowed Kellhus' entire journey from Ishual to the Utemot.  He was there at the Utemot, thus the dream to Cnaiur to visit his fathers grave.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: What Came Before on April 25, 2013, 06:44:04 pm
Quote from: Curethan
Didn't need to shadow Cnaiur if he had some meta-psukhe analogue of Kellhus' firewatching. 
I would speculate the ability to see what people are up to via extended dream manipulation, because that was one of his areas of greatest facility with the Psukhe.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: What Came Before on April 25, 2013, 06:44:10 pm
Quote from: Curethan
Quote from: Twooars
The destruction of the Scylvendi at Kiyuth was not essential for Kellhus to join and lead the holy war, IMO. My understanding was that Moenghus realized that he cannot possibly condition every step of the way for Kellhus.

Except Kiyuth was an essential part of the inception of the holy war.  The Nansur gambled their entire military strength in order to free their harrassed borders so that they could provision and lead the expedition to regain their lands from the Fanim.  If Conphas had failed, then so would the holy war.  Also note that Conphas' intel and insights that allowed him to defeat the Scylvendi came from his time with Kascamandi.

Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: What Came Before on April 25, 2013, 06:44:47 pm
Quote from: Imparrhas
Quote from: Twooars
My understanding was that Moenghus realized that he cannot possibly condition every step of the way for Kellhus.
Yeah, I think conditioning ground means building many contingency plans, not predicting how everything will play out exactly. We know from Kel's povs that the Probability Trance is still limited by how many variables play a part in deciding the outcome and how many of those are known to the Ment...Dunyain. I assume most of Moe's plans never happened because they were there to catch possibilities that never happened.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: What Came Before on April 26, 2013, 04:07:03 pm
Quote from: The Sharmat
When did Moenghus have time to do all this traveling? Unless the Psukhe has some equivalent of the metagnostic cant of transposition it seems quite improbable he could be in so many places at once. It's understandable given the narrative, but I think fans of this series give the Dunyain entirely too much credit. They're human, for all their protestations. Just with a very narrow set of alleles and tons of conditioning. They make errors. And they aren't omniscient.

How did Moenghus know Kellhus would make it to him? He didn't. But it was the most likely chain of events that could lead to the goal he sought. The shortest of all possible paths he could see. It's a probability trance, not a certainty trance. And besides, Kellhus is a Dunyain too. Easier for things to work out when you have one working on both ends.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: What Came Before on April 26, 2013, 04:07:13 pm
Quote from: Twooars
Quote from: Curethan
Except Kiyuth was an essential part of the inception of the holy war.  The Nansur gambled their entire military strength in order to free their harrassed borders so that they could provision and lead the expedition to regain their lands from the Fanim.  If Conphas had failed, then so would the holy war.  Also note that Conphas' intel and insights that allowed him to defeat the Scylvendi came from his time with Kascamandi.

Freeing borders wasn't really the concern of Xerius/Conphas when they planned the Kiyuth expedition... they wanted to use the victory there as a lever to make Conphas the leader of the holy war. Conphas says,
Quote
the glorious victory we've just won, is nothing more than the first engagement of the Holy War?... Whether the Holy War is the Shriah's or no is the very point at issue
. And Xerius provisioned the vulgar holy war while the Kiyuth battle/seige was in progress, so clearly, provisioning (= mainly food, other essentials) the holy war was not directly affected by availability of manpower. Also, Istriya notes how Xerius planned the Kiyuth battle to free manpower from the borders, but considering the number of nations involved in the holy war, would the absence of the Nansur have made a big difference? I don't think so.

The point of Moenghus summoning Kellhus is that a Dunyain can assess circumstances and improvise in a way that worldborn men cannot. If Moenghus could direct events so closely and accurately, he might as well have worked with Maithanet instead of summoning Kellhus all the way from Ishual (which has so many more variables to take care of).
And Conphas learnt warfare from Skauras as he was his ward, not Kascamandri. Mallahet/Moenghus is more likely to be in Shimeh, not in Shigek, so unlikely to have conditioned Conphas. And as I said earlier, the peculiar psyche of Conphas makes him so eminently unconditionable that it is hard to believe that Moenghus could have conditioned him early in life.

Bottomline, while Bakker leaves some things unexplained and ambiguous, I don't think he is going for an unreliable narrator theme. When Kellhus explains Moenghus' motivations at the end of TTT, I think it is only a storytelling device to make the revelations seem more readable, not an attempt to foreshadow secret machinations by moenghus. So I am inclined to take what Kellhus surmises about Moenghus as Fact. This doesn't mean that there isn't more to Moenghus than Kellhus surmised, it just means that when Kellhus thinks that Moenghus failed to do something, he probably was right. for eg. Moenghus' probability trance really failed him (when it came to Kellhus convincing the ruling caste members of the holy war about his prophet-hood).
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: What Came Before on April 26, 2013, 04:07:23 pm
Quote from: Twooars
Quote from: The Sharmat
It's understandable given the narrative, but I think fans of this series give the Dunyain entirely too much credit.

Exactly. Take the circumfixion sequence for example. Kellhus
1. tries to kill Sarcellus - fails
2. Uses Achamian to convince the great names - fails
3. manipulates Cnaiur - almost fails, but succeeds only because of a freak occurrence (distraction of the skin spy by Gotian)

How then did Moenghus make sure that Kellhus would get to the holy war safely? Well, IMO, Moenghus couldn't be absolutely sure. He just thought it would be likely that another Dunyain can make it from Ishual to the Three Seas, because he himself made it 20 years back. He couldn't condition individual actions, but he just set up broad circumstances that Kellhus could use to his advantage.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: What Came Before on April 26, 2013, 04:07:36 pm
Quote from: Curethan
@twooars

I think you underestimate Moe's machinations.  For instance, Conphas inteded to betray the holy war - which Moe knew because Conphas had planned it with the Kian.  'Mallahet' was the cish advisor/priest there. 

When Moe (as Mallahet) meets with Xerius Ikurei, he uses sorcery to allow Skauras (Sapatishah-Governor of Shigek) to speak directly to the king (which seems a lot more effective than Gnostic long distance dream communications know that I think about it).  There is definately a connection between them.  And Skaurus is also in contact with Conphas (previously his hostage iirc).  It seems quite possible that Mallahet met with Conphas whilst he was visiting Nansur.

I think we have the same feeling about Moe and Kellhus' talk though - I have a feeling that its useless for dunyain to lie to each other and that is why the conflict in their conversations is based on who is steering it.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: What Came Before on April 26, 2013, 04:07:43 pm
Quote from: Wilshire
Finally some people that are making a bit of sense, or at least speculations that I agree with. From above one of my favorite points is that its called a probability trance. The dunyain are intelligent, but they are not gods or any similar omniscient being. They are just a group of people that employed some social Darwinism for the past several centuries.

They can, and do, fail. Nothing is 100% for sure to happen, and even if your at 99%, there is still that 1 chance in a hundred that things go horribly, miserably wrong. Think about all the possible decision made from Ishual all the way to where Moe was at. How many of those choices, decisions, and actions fell onto a 50/50 chance, or a 60/40 chance? Even if something is less probable, that doesn't mean its unlikely. Even at 75% success, 1 of 4 times is a failure.

The reason why Moe absolutely needed Kell was because there was no other choice. He might have only had a 10% chance at success and any other human that tried such a ridiculous journey would have failed outright (obviously). The only possible chance was that Kell had the ability to adapt to all the multitude of circumstances that were left unconditioned. If Moe had the ability to condition every single step of the way, why would he need another dunyain at all? If he had that much power, why not simply have Mat walk the golden path to victory? Surely with every step conditioned, a half dunyain could be trusted to not screw up.

Moe only had just enough influence to give himself the slightest chance of success. Just a glimmer of half hearted hope that maybe the TTT could be realized as he saw it. And as it turned out, his tiny chance turned out to be a dead end anyway. He could not overcome his circumstances and died because he made to many mistakes along the way (mainly having no sight, but that was certainly not his only blunder).

Simply put, Moe failed, was outsmarted (or at least out-lucked) by Kell and other circumstances, and died because of it. I sincerely doubt he had some super secret mega ultra KO punch that he was hiding, or some kind of amazing scheme that he was waiting to employ after faking this or that outcome. If he did, he wouldn't have risked everything for Kel.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: What Came Before on April 26, 2013, 04:07:50 pm
Quote from: Curethan
It's pretty much guaranteed up to the the circumfixion, I think.

Really, it's authorial fiat.  Throughout the PoN, it is repeated so many times that the dunyain leave nothing to chance.  It's like setting up dominos.  Preparing everything so that the dominos fall one after another and form the pattern that is desired.  In Ishual, even the fall of a leaf from a tree is certain - from when it falls to where it lands.  That isn't 50/50 or even 99% certainty...  Whether this is a believable conceit is up to the reader, but I'm pretty sure that is what is intended.  The idea that everything is determined by prior events and that the logos allows one to control their flow is central.

Moe needed a blank Dunyain.  That is, someone who could fight a nonman to a standstill, who could pluck arrows from the air, bend a mandate sorcerer so that he would teach the gnosis, learn and master the principles of war etc etc.  Maitha just wasn't good enough, maybe a 10% chance, as you say.

Kellhus is aware that he is walking conditioned ground from the outset.  Things like Cnaiur and the political situation when he gets to the 3 seas proper are big flashing signs that show what he needs to do next, because Kellhus knows to walk the shortest path.  He's not planning against Moeghus.  It's repeated over and over throughout Kellhus' pov chapters where ruminates on the shortest path and wonders what Moe has planned for him.

Moe wasn't 'risking everything', neither was he outsmarted or out-lucked.  His purpose is to unite the nations of men under one belief so they can oppose the consult, which works out quite nicely, thank you.  A
In the end he is made obsolete by his own designs, he dies because he could not see the probabilities of TTT beyond the flash point where Kellhus takes control - the circumfixion - and by admission, that is where the probability trance fails and the chances of his goals being achieved go down from 99.9recurring%.  Then Kellhus starts playing his own game and talking to twigs.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: What Came Before on April 26, 2013, 04:07:57 pm
Quote from: Twooars
Quote from: Curethan
It's pretty much guaranteed up to the the circumfixion, I think.
No, not really. I agree that the Dunyain do not leave much to chance, but their probability trance is entirely dependent on the information they have. It's not like they can foresee events, they assess the possible outcomes from the knowledge they are privy to. This actually is the big difference between Kellhus' and Moneghus' journeys. Moenghus made a lot of mistakes because he did not have all the necessary information or did not foresee the turn of events:
1. Manipulating Cnaiur in a rather obvious manner, resulting in Cnaiur figuring out that he was manipulated (Kellhus reflects on this during his journey with Cnaiur through the steppe)
2. Scarring his arms like a Scylvendi - while this is arguably the only course of action for him to leave the steppe unmolested, it limited options for him - he could not go into the Nansurium, effectively leaving him only the Psukhe among all sorceries
3. blinding himself, for the Psukhe - the biggest mistake, obviously

Quote
Things like Cnaiur and the political situation when he gets to the 3 seas proper...
Cnaiur is actually an excellent argument against the idea that Moenghus 'planted' him to prepare the path for Kellhus. Kellhus has a really difficult time trying to 'possess' Cnaiur, with little success. He actually succeeds only after they meet Serwe on the way, as mentioned in one of the 'What came before' sections, IIRC (which could only be a chance occurrence, surely, as she was a complete nobody, so Moenghus has no reason to arrange her to meet Kellhus).

Other strong arguments against the Moenghus-conditioned-everything theory, IMO:
1. Cnaiur - Shows poor planning by Moenghus, but that's because he had no idea what he was getting into when he met Cnaiur. His only aim then was to get out of Scylvendi hands.
2. Advice to Saubon to 'sacrifice' the shrial knights. A totally random (uninformed) decision  by Kellhus, but resulted in him getting elevated in the eyes of the great names.
3. Sparing Cnaiur's life on the beach (?)- again something totally irrational from a Dunyain POV, but was what saved Kellhus later.
4. Kellhus almost dying in the snow but found by Leweth (who is a nobody, so there is no reasonable explanation for Moenghus knowing him)
5. Kellhus finding water in the Carathay desert
6.
Quote
someone who could fight a nonman to a standstill
actually, Kellhus could escape this confrontation only because Mekeritrig chose not to use sorcery from the outset, so I think he was extremely lucky here.
Some of these, however, are arguments for the-world-conspires theory, IMO.

The TTT was Moenghus' big gamble.
Quote
Each of its folds possesses a haze of catastrophic possibilities, most of them remote, others nearly certain. I would have abandoned it long ago, were not the consequences of inaction so absolute.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: What Came Before on April 26, 2013, 04:08:06 pm
Quote from: lockesnow
Quote from: Twooars
Moenghus made a lot of mistakes because he did not have all the necessary information or did not foresee the turn of events:
This is a presumption that flatters the reader in a couple different insidious ways, one the reader is 'on the side' of the 'hero/protagonist' in this case Kellhus, and against the antagonist, in this case Moe; two it privileges the narrative the reader has followed and thus preps the reader into going along with Kellhus without question.  Note that the confrontation with Moe is primarily Kellhus going full Bond Villain Monologue in explaining his projections of what Moe did, it is not Moe doing a Bond Villain Monologue explaining what happened.  We take Kellhus' assumptions at full truth because the conventions of literary tradition.

Imagine if the Kianine are correct, their religion is the 'right' religion and only they will not be damned.  Moe joined that religion and became the equivalent of a high priest in that religion.  Can we say that he made a mistake if he in fact made a completely accurate assessment of the validity of the various religions of the world?  We don't know that Moe made a hasty decision once he was in Fanim territory, it may have been quite a long time of study before he became Cishaurim.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: What Came Before on April 26, 2013, 04:08:26 pm
Quote from: Wilshire
Well Curethan when I read through Moe's lines during Moe and Kell's meetings, it seemed to me that Moe was completely with the Consult. Moe saw the culmination of the TTT as shutting the world from the gods and thus saving everyone. He wanted to unify everyone under one banner so they could all docilely go to their deaths, instead of continuing to fight anything and everything. Then Kell grasped it, and decided that no, shutting the world was a bad idea, and he choose an end that saved everyone by opposing the consult instead of helping them like his father wanted. This, I believe, is what see further into the TTT is. It is stated that the TTT does not lead the world to one end, but rather its basically just a lump of cause and affect that leads the world to very similar ends. Moe saw it as getting rid of the gods, Kell letting the gods stick around.

Maybe that is a different interpretation to whats typically accepted, but thats how I see it. Moe lost because he made to many mistakes, so he called the upon not the shortest path, but the only path. That path had consequences that he could not forsee, mainly his own death and the "perversion" of what he thought was the proper outcome of TTT.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: What Came Before on April 26, 2013, 04:08:40 pm
Quote from: Twooars
Quote from: lockesnow
This is a presumption that flatters the reader in a couple different insidious ways, one the reader is 'on the side' of the 'hero/protagonist' in this case Kellhus, and against the antagonist, in this case Moe; two it privileges the narrative the reader has followed and thus preps the reader into going along with Kellhus without question.  Note that the confrontation with Moe is primarily Kellhus going full Bond Villain Monologue in explaining his projections of what Moe did, it is not Moe doing a Bond Villain Monologue explaining what happened.  We take Kellhus' assumptions at full truth because the conventions of literary tradition.

As I said above, I am assuming that Bakker is not going for an unreliable narrator (I'm using the term loosely here) theme. My impression is that in the closing scenes of TTT, Kellhus explains Moenghus' motivations simply because it is a plot device, as Moenghus explaining himself would seem too cheesy (too Bond Villain-esque, as you say). My assumption may be wrong, but I'd be seriously disappointed if so, mainly because without a third person omniscient perspective, Kellhus is the only POV we have there and for a (metaphysical) whodunnit, it would be disingenuous of the author to say 3 books later, 'well, everything Kellhus said and thought about Moenghus was wrong actually'. For me, it would seem like the author is taking the easy way out.
Having said that, I still don't get Moenghus' motivations completely. I am leaning towards Wilshire's idea that Moenghus' version of TTT intended shutting the world against the gods, but uniting the Fanim and Inrithi seems like an incredibly roundabout way of doing that. So I think new revelations in the coming books will explain Moenghus' actions further, but I think these revelations will not negate what Kellhus already surmised about him. The new revelations will have to be something that wasn't mentioned to the reader before, not something that was already mentioned and negated in later books. That's my take of it anyway, I know my reading is not the One True Reading. The one thing I love about this series is the ambiguity, moral and otherwise, but I really hope that by the end of it, we will have some clarity! :)
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: What Came Before on April 26, 2013, 04:08:45 pm
Quote from: Curethan
Interesting perspective.  Allow me to add my own ridiculous speculations. ;)
(eta. trying to be humourous, not trying to be rude)
Moenghus is actually already wanting to join the consult but never does.  Guess he never got round to sending an application.  Probly should've just sent one of theose skin spies back with a message.  Nope, instead he's going to hide from the consult and oppose them from the shadows until he's united the entire world and then he'll march everyone up north and present them to Golgotteroth like a bunch of flowers and rely upon grattitude to get him a job as EO of the Consult's Evil R&D.
But then he summons Kellhus at random 15-20 years after blinding himself and failing to make any further headway on any of his possible goals (i.e. world domination or joining the consult).
I'm not sure what he is supposed to be hoping for here... perhaps he has some rough intuition from the probability trance that there is a 2% chance Kellhus will be able to restore his vision... or help him write a love letter to Aurang?
Ultimately he just waits for Kellhus to kill him, instead of revealing what he was really up to and trying to convince Kellhus to join him... 
Yeh, can't really buy into it, but seriously, its possible, I guess. 

In defence of my own reading, I'll address some of the points against raised by Twooars.

    It's not like they can foresee events, they assess the possible outcomes from the knowledge they are privy to. This actually is the big difference between Kellhus' and Moneghus' journeys. Moenghus made a lot of mistakes because he did not have all the necessary information or did not foresee the turn of events:

Agree completely.  The difference is that Kellhus walks conditioned ground.  Moenghus couldn't know, but Kellhus can be certain that following the shortest path will take him in the direction that has been prepared.

Other strong arguments against the Moenghus-conditioned-everything theory, IMO:
1. Cnaiur - Shows poor planning by Moenghus, but that's because he had no idea what he was getting into when he met Cnaiur. His only aim then was to get out of Scylvendi hands.

Cnaiur is used because he presents obvious evidence that Moenghus has prepared the way.  Cnaiur is a challenge because, like Conphas, he is already conditioned.  Kellhus needs him to learn war as well as a way through Scylvendi lands without making the same mistakes as Moe (i.e. becoming like the Scylvendi - scarred arms etc.) 

2. Advice to Saubon to 'sacrifice' the shrial knights. A totally random (uninformed) decision by Kellhus, but resulted in him getting elevated in the eyes of the great names.
In their face-off, I suspect that Kellhus mentions the voices he has been hearing because he suspects Moenghus may have been behind them.  Not sure why else he would have mentioned it - seems dangerous because if it isn't that way.  For example, the prophecy of the Shrial knights is something Moeghus may have had the ability and knowledge to pull off.  He had a sophisticated intelligence network that exceeded the consult's skinspies and could have put the suggestion into Kellhus' mind while Kellhus slept, rather than intervening at the moment Kellhus thinks he makes the decision.
Interestingly, Moeghus neither confirms or denies this, instead he changes the direction of the conversation by asserting that Kellhus has cracked.  Moe is a lying liar?  If Moe isn't responsible then he should be aware that Kellhus might go for the sneaky stab because someone/something else has been manipulating him.

3. Sparing Cnaiur's life on the beach (?)- again something totally irrational from a Dunyain POV, but was what saved Kellhus later.
Kellhus reflects that he should have killed him at one point, why not kill him then?  It never matters so much that it undoes any of his progress, and the consult probably would have learned of him through other methods eventually.  In fact, when he recognizes Cnaiur's methods of resistance in Aurang's strategy for dealing with him it enables Kellhus to deal with that too because he has managed to manipulate Cnaiur regardless.  Cnaiur saving Kellhus on the circumfix is very unlikely to have anything to do directly with Moe - he admits that this is where the probabilities escaped his ability to manipulate, but I think that it is part of TTT nonetheless.

4. Kellhus almost dying in the snow but found by Leweth (who is a nobody, so there is no reasonable explanation for Moenghus knowing him)
Given that Moenghus made it to Scylvendi lands, this would be a reasonable point to suggest that Kellhus almost rolled a critical failure (.000001%).  It's likely that running into Mek's band of Sranc was very unlucky and prevented Kellhus from using them to get himself through the wilderness like Moenghus did.  For example, if he had just run into a regular band of sranc he could have killed them all, workjed out their social patterning and learned either avoid them and use the same food sources they do (instead of trying to subsist on acorns) or assimilate himself into a sranc band like Moe.  My earlier point about escaping Mek was intended to show that (as a dunyain) he could escape such poor odds rather than Moe knowing that such an encounter was bound to happen.

5. Kellhus finding water in the Carathay desert
Iirc he does that by applying scientific principles ala Bear Grylls.

Finally, TTT was a gamble unless he could get a dunyain to walk his conditioned ground.  That's why he didn't try to take control of the three seas personally or via Maitha or the Ikurei or one of the other options that TTT would have thrown up.

As you say though, it really depends on the reader. 
Moeghus has definitely been screwing around with the political situation and using indiviuals like Maitha, the Ikurei dynasty, the Fanim etc etc in order to get things into a situation that Kellhus will be able to take advantage of.  The question I was seeking to look at is to what extent did Moe micromanage his manipulations?  Obviously, what ever the truth is, we are not privy to all of Moe's machinations or the true extent of his sorcerous abilities.  He actively demonstrates skills with telepathic communication, dream manipulation and illusion that equal or exceed the extent of what is demonstrated by practitioners of any school included in the series to date.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: What Came Before on April 26, 2013, 04:08:52 pm
Quote from: lockesnow
Quote from: Twooars
Having said that, I still don't get Moenghus' motivations completely. I am leaning towards Wilshire's idea that Moenghus' version of TTT intended shutting the world against the gods, but uniting the Fanim and Inrithi seems like an incredibly roundabout way of doing that. So I think new revelations in the coming books will explain Moenghus' actions further, but I think these revelations will not negate what Kellhus already surmised about him. The new revelations will have to be something that wasn't mentioned to the reader before, not something that was already mentioned and negated in later books. That's my take of it anyway, I know my reading is not the One True Reading. The one thing I love about this series is the ambiguity, moral and otherwise, but I really hope that by the end of it, we will have some clarity! :)
I really like this idea and more or less agree with it.  OTOH, I'm suspicious we're all being played because Bakker is relying on our adherence to genre convention and literary tradition, and thus can manipulate the reader and their expectations in interesting meta and micro ways. 

Also, one must keep Nerdanal's Grand Moenghus Conspiracy Theory alive and well.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: What Came Before on April 26, 2013, 04:08:59 pm
Quote from: The Sharmat
Wait, you think we were supposed to find Kellhus sympathetic and be rooting for him vs. the 'antagonist', Moenghus...who is barely present in the narrative and whose motives are shrouded in mystery? I never found Kellhus sympathetic. At best he's the lesser of myriad evils.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: What Came Before on April 26, 2013, 04:09:06 pm
Quote from: lockesnow
no, by the end of TTT I was rooting against Kellhus, but within the conventions of genre Kellhus is the fucking hero.  Bakker is actively deconstructing that with how he writes the book and he's quite consciously playing with convention and expectation and uses both as tools to prime or disarm a reader as he wants.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: What Came Before on April 26, 2013, 04:09:13 pm
Quote from: Callan S.
Yeah, but is it deconstructing towards something (which is constructing) or just a faff around?
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: What Came Before on April 26, 2013, 04:09:20 pm
Quote from: Wilshire
Wow I actually didn't expect anyone to agree with me. To be honest I just threw in the whole "unite everyone to kill them" idea in there because I can't explain it to myself. Why would he want to unite everyone if his goal was to gave them all killed anyways? Not really sure, so it throws a wrench into my Moe theory, but I'm going to stick to it I think.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: What Came Before on April 26, 2013, 04:09:33 pm
Quote from: Curethan
I like hearing other interpretations even if I don't agree, makes me reconsider and rework my own conclusions. :)
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: What Came Before on April 26, 2013, 04:09:37 pm
Quote from: Madness
Lol @ Wilshire. I completely agree with Curethan, the magic of forums is social. You all can think of things that I never could or can. I invite you to share that as expressively as you can.

I will just repost from the Cishaurim thread[/u] (http://secondapocalypse.forumer.com/cishaurim-t1193485.html), what I think is my main piece of evidence for Moenghus playing Kellhus in their conversation in TTT.

"I bear a message from your Father. He says, 'You walk the Shortest Path. Soon you will grasp the Thousandfold Thought.'" p.579, TWP

[This is Hifanat ab Tunukri of Moenghus' sect of Cishaurim - he also mentions this nugget: "We see you. All of us." ... "All of us who serve him - the Possessors of the Third Sight."]

"Sooner or later the caste-nobility had to move against you. Crisis was inevitable ... This," the eyeless face said, "was where the Probability Trance failed me..." p.338, TTT LE

[This if one of the few times that Moenghus "validates" what Kellhus describes as Moenghus' Journey. I think Moenghus is lying.]

"How," his father finally said, "could you know this?"
"Because I know why you were compelled to summon me."
Scrutiny. Calculation.
"So you have grasped it."
"Yes ... the Thousandfold Thought." p. 340, TTT LE

[This ends a chapter, a revelatory moment, and Moenghus, from Kellhus' perspective, acts surprised by what is not new knowledge.]

Moenghus lied to Kellhus in TTT and Kellhus seems deceived by this.

"His father, Kellhus realized, had finally grasped the principles of this encounter. Moenghus had assumed his son would be the one requiring instruction. He had not foreseen it as possible, let alone inevitable, that the Thousandfold Thought would outgrow the soul of its incubation - and discard it." p.374, TTT LE

Except it seems the Conditioned Ground was Moenghus' that day. In TWP, he explicitly lets his son know that he will grasp the Thousandfold Thought but then, in the conversation in TTT, he does not mention it until Kellhus does, even though he knows Kellhus has indeed grasped the Thought.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: What Came Before on April 26, 2013, 04:10:04 pm
Quote from: Wilshire
Perhaps a bit off topic:
Alright so this line of thinking probably stemmed form reading all the inverse fire posts. But where does TTT actually fit in here. Let me try to explain:
If TTT is supposed to be like Laplace's Demon, Hari Sheldon's Sheldon Plan, Leto's Golden Path (or the Wizard of Oz's yellow brick road), why does it seem that everyone who 'grasps' it seem to have a different conclusion, a different path to follow. Why does something so inevitable, so impossible to miss after following the probability trance long enough, seem to pull people different ways? And not just people, Dunyain (or part dunyain in some cases).

It seems (nearly) a theme that revaluations bind to cause in SE. The IF for the consult, Seswatha's heart for the Mandate, why not the TTT for the Dunyain? These things are all supposed to point to truth. While truth is rather subjective, and TTT is not as obviously violent of a revaluations as the others, why shouldn't it bind Moe, Kell, and anyone else who might have grasped it to similar ends.

The other, lets call them devices of truth, are implemented in different ways to be sure (magic and tekne), but they do something similar. Horrible atrocities are seen. Pain, suffering, death etc. Does TTT show a similar horrific picture? A burned world, the death of whole kingdoms and peoples, slavery, murder, etc. As well as with the other 'devices' there is also a way out. A way to save yourself, I mean the world.

I guess my question is what makes the truths wrought from TTT bind purpose to action, people to deeds, in so different a way than the the IF and the Heart.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: What Came Before on April 26, 2013, 04:10:11 pm
Quote from: Imparrhas
What reasons would Moe have to lie to Kel in this way? I see only two possibilities: he was still Dunyain, predicted that Kellhus would break and the whole thing is a gambit to have Kel think he is superseding Moe while he is actually still working to Moe's ends. If this is true then either Moe did not forsee the suprise stab and his gambit failed or the last twenty years have been Moe working through Kellhus.
The other possibility is that Moe was not Dunyain anymore, was working towards the same conception of the TTT as Kellhus but forsaw that the surest (or only) way to achieve it was if Kellhus believed Moe was still Dunyain, would work for Golgotterath and had to be killed. In this case the cave scene was also Moe's gambit but the intention was to transmit the TTT to Kellhus in the way that's most likely to have it succeed.

Of these possibilities I think the second part of the first one, where Kellhus has been unwittingly working to Moe's ends for the last two decades, is the least likely.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: What Came Before on April 26, 2013, 04:10:17 pm
Quote from: lockesnow
I like the second one.  Your first one works if you use Nerdanel's GMCT belief that Moe was not in the cave with Kellhus, that he was speaking through his hologram projection ability like in TDTCB and that Kell stabbed a surrogate.  The key evidence for this is that Kell never sees Moe's face since Moe stays behind a waterfall the whole time.  The key counter evidence for this is that Cnaiur thinks it Moe, but he's a bit out of his head so the counter counter is that Moe had a body double that had similar physical attributes to better fool Kellhus (couldn't rely only on hiding one's face behind a sheet of water, Kell would note a  problem with scars, height build, complexion etc).  and for whatever reason kept up the illusion when talking to Cnaiur.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: What Came Before on April 26, 2013, 04:10:24 pm
Quote from: Wilshire
He was not behind the waterfall the entire time and kell did get a few chances to look at his face. He leaned through the waterfall to press the rag into his eye sockets to show kell that they were empty, and that they bled. There is also the line when he comes through the falls completely which reads something like "son and father stood eye to socket" (it also says that Moe is naked except for a thin cloth around his junk). Certainly Kell could have figured out that this fella was or wasn't his father with him standing more or less naked several feet from his face, dim lighting or not.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: What Came Before on April 26, 2013, 04:10:32 pm
Quote from: Madness
They also stood in a completely lit room where Moenghus had kept the captured skin-spies.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: What Came Before on April 26, 2013, 04:10:39 pm
Quote from: Wilshire
Is it mentioned anywhere that the number of snakes had by a cish is some indication of how powerful they are, or rather how much water they can bare? Also, Kell says to Moe that the cish priests came to mistrust moe because he was so intelligent and shined so brightly in the third sight, but couldnt bare water as it was a metaphysic of emotion and not intellect. What does shining in the third sight indicate, and why would Kell assume this bit of information?
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: What Came Before on April 26, 2013, 04:10:46 pm
Quote from: Curethan
As I recall, Moe 'shines in the third sight' because he 'reflects the proportions of the god'.  This is fairly ambiguous, but seems to have something to do with having emotional and spiritual balance. 

In my opinion this means, that because dunyain who live through the 'proper' Ishual-style whelming have control over their emotions, they are able to apply logical reasoning to determine their own fate.  Which also means they are in complete control of their own spiritual destiny (i.e. whether they are damned or not). 

Unfortunately for Moe, the way that dunyain control their emotions is by suppressing them with this rational control means that he lacks facility with the raw power of meaning that released emotion generates.  Think about the way that athletes hype themselves up - this is the kind of controled emotion that is required for bearing large amounts of water with the psukhe.  Just having a tantrum probably wouldn't cut it.  (Could be that this is why Kell thinks Moe will inevitably join the consult - he has probably damned himself by exploring many pervy different ways of trying to extend his emotional experience, somewhat analogous to Shae after looking at the IF perhaps.  Cuz I tend to think torturing skin spies is fine with E-God.)

By this line of reasoning there is no reason why Moe wouldn't be capable of extreme finesse with the power that he can harness - it's just the raw power available to him that is lacking.

eta. so no, I don't think that the number of snakes has any bearing on cishie power levels - remember Meppa only has 1 snake and he kicks major arse.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: What Came Before on April 26, 2013, 04:10:52 pm
Quote from: Wilshire
Good point about Meppa but I thought that all the high ranking cish that the scarlet spies fight all had like 5 snakes, I would be completely wrong thought.

Thanks for the insight into the third sight. By that definition, it seems once again to show the finite awareness of the gods, or in this case the god, imo. If he shines in the third sight it would seem that the god more or less shows him favor. Sure emotional balance and what-not, but to me it shows that certainly a 'god' would know who should be exhalted as one of their children (shining in the sight) and who should be bland as a pealed potato.

Also is it mentioned what Kell looks like in the third sight? A real same if not, because after this book there will probably be few chances to witness Kell in a pov of a cish. I'd imagine if Moe was holographic, then it would stand to reason that the the other dunyain would as well.

And if the dunyain can, what about other beings? Nonmen, consult, other sorcerers, or even the weapon races. If the sight can be fooled to show someone so at odds with the god its supposed to show favor for, what stops other emotionless, or extremely emotional, people/things from shining as well.

Can't say I've put much thoughts into how the third sight works myself, but if anyone has some answers it would certainly be interesting to ponder.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: What Came Before on April 26, 2013, 04:10:59 pm
Quote from: Curethan
eh I had a nice long post about my interpretations of the god, cishie powers and the third sight for you Wilshire, and then a computer crash ate it.  :(

Basicaly I think Moe had his snakes positioned around the grotto.

Kellhus, I am pretty sure, also shines, as does truth (make of that what you will) - the amount that one understands their emotions determines how well they can use the logos (i.e. rationality) to control the darkness that moves them (and others) but the depth with which they feel emotion is important to how much power they can channel... the power of the psuhke comes from within whereas the gnosis and anagosis hinge on the meanings invested by others.  A normal cish could better come to understand his emotions by experiencing them forcefully (for reference look at how intensely Kellhus feels his emotions (the legion within) during his whelming when he masters them) so it's confusing for the cishie elders that Moe has such finesse but very little power.

I imagine all dunyain shine in the third sight - and those that are ignorant of the logos and are almost completely moved by the darkness that comes before are all but invisible (why else would it take Moe to detect skinspies if cishies can see souls?)

I don't think it has anything to do with the god's favour - remember that Moe, Kellhus and fanimry al seem to agree that the god is unconcious.  Damnation etc seems to hinge on controling yourself despite the weight of the darkness pushing you to do certain things.  That is, doing stuff that your rational mind tells you is wrong. 
Kellhus can't really decide that Moe has the god's favour and two minutes later justify killing him because he is inevitably damned and will therefore join the consult, yeh?
At any rate, the uber-god doesn't really seem to do anything.
From what Mimara's POV intimates, understanding and forgiving yourself may be enough...
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: What Came Before on April 26, 2013, 04:11:06 pm
Quote from: Wilshire
Well hungry computers aside that post seemed to do a nice job of answering everything I asked. Thanks.

Also it does seem likely that Moe had snakes positioned around. Even though they "are but pinpricks", enough pinpricks and you've got a nice clear view, though so many different perspectives would probably drive a non dunyain mad which could explain why no one else bothered with more than a few snakes.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: What Came Before on April 26, 2013, 04:11:13 pm
Quote from: lockesnow
Quote from: Wilshire
He was not behind the waterfall the entire time and kell did get a few chances to look at his face. He leaned through the waterfall to press the rag into his eye sockets to show kell that they were empty, and that they bled. There is also the line when he comes through the falls completely which reads something like "son and father stood eye to socket" (it also says that Moe is naked except for a thin cloth around his junk). Certainly Kell could have figured out that this fella was or wasn't his father with him standing more or less naked several feet from his face, dim lighting or not.
doh, looks like I need to do a reread.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: What Came Before on April 26, 2013, 04:11:20 pm
Quote from: Imparrhas
Quote from: Curethan
Damnation etc seems to hinge on controling yourself despite the weight of the darkness pushing you to do certain things.  That is, doing stuff that your rational mind tells you is wrong.
Are you saying that the Logos comes from the Darkness? I would expect that resisting the Darkness would be doing stuff that you feel is wrong.
 
Quote from: Curethan
From what Mimara's POV intimates, understanding and forgiving yourself may be enough...
Interesting. That would mean that people Damn themselves right? I also thought that lack of understanding and forgiveness Damns, but that this was how people Damn each other.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: What Came Before on April 26, 2013, 04:11:26 pm
Quote from: Wilshire
I found the quote that had led me to believe my theory on Moe. It had nothing to due with what Moe did, but rather what Kell told him. Basicly he said that any dunyain who grasped the TTT and learned of damnation at the hands of the gods ( or god or ciphrang or whatever), would be forced to control circumstance, and the only way to do that would be to shut the world, and to shut the world one must join the consult. Whatever happened to Kell at his circumfixtion made him "more than dunyain", or at least some intervention made him decide that the TTT was to save the people and leave the world open.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: What Came Before on April 26, 2013, 04:11:37 pm
Quote from: Madness
Just exploring the forum, rereading, bumping, and parsing some threads.

- Early in this thread, its suggested that Mallahet might be a counterfeit Moenghus. This evokes questions of Moenghus the Elder's status within the Cishaurim hierarchy, second only to Seokti, according to Cememketri, Grandmaster of the Imperial Saik and only because the laws forbid a non-Kianene High Heresiarch. However, Moenghus could and probably did have body doubles. I simply think Kellhus should be able to detect an imposter at Kyudea.

Wilshire, do you still think that is Kellhus intention, to save the world and leave the world open?
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: What Came Before on April 26, 2013, 04:11:44 pm
Quote from: Wilshire
Yup, the text hasnt changed and no one has convinced me otherwise, so my belief stands. Kell the savior by leaving the world open, as opposed to Moe the savior by shutting it.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: What Came Before on April 26, 2013, 04:11:51 pm
Quote from: Triskele
I have loved this thread. 

I think a lot of us keep getting caught up on disbelief that a Dunyain w/ 30 years in the world could just go out like Moe did. 

But we are given an explanation (the "dead end" of becoming a Cish).  It drives us mad because it's an explanation that could work and yet it's still difficult to accept that Moe just got stabbed and that was it. 

The Dunyain may not be infallible, but are we really to believe that Moenghus didn't at least have contingency plans for Kellhus being broken somehow?  If the probability trance failed him did he not make plans that maybe he needed to have a backup plan if Kellhus wasn't going to work out?
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: What Came Before on April 26, 2013, 04:11:59 pm
Quote from: Madness
Yay Nerdanel! Of course, Nerdanel is responsible for starting the version of this thread on old Three-Seas.

Echoes much of my evidence. Gah!

"Moënghus won by losing, fooled everybody

Postby Nerdanel » Wed Jul 25, 2007 2:05 pm

I think Moënghus is currently suffering from severe underappreciation on this forum. I think Kellhus underestimated his daddy, and most readers then bought his reasoning as canon. But Kellhus isn't infallible, especially when going against another Dûnyain.

I think nobody disagrees that Mallahet = Moënghus, so I'm skipping the evidence for that.

Quote from: Cememketri
Mallahet is second only to Seokti in the Cishaurim. And then only because their Prophetic Law bars non-Kianene from the position of the Heresiarch. Even the Cishaurim are fearful of his power!

That doesn't square at all with Kellhus's estimation that Moënghus was weak:

Quote from: Kellhus
Seökti and the others respect you. Indeed, as Mallahet you have a reputation that reaches across Kian and beyond. But secretly, they all think you cursed by the Solitary God. Why else would the Water elude you?

[...] For years you waged futile war against circumstance and though your intellect could astound those around you and earn you access to their most privileged counsels, the instant they found themselves beyond the force of your presence, the undermining whispers were rekindled. "He is weak."

Considering that Kellhus's reasoning is inference based on what he knows and that his primary source is Achamian, I'm more inclined to trust Cememketri and believe that Moënghus is the most powerful Cishaurim ever. The Cishaurim are Cememketri's ancestral enemy and ever-present foreign relations issue, not Achamian's. Achamian may know a good bit about everything, but that's not the same thing as knowing everything. And none of the Inrithi are particularly knowledgeable of the finer points of Psûkhe and its compatibility with the Dûnyain.

And, Kellhus himself has first-hand knowledge that Moënghus has fanatical followers among the Cishaurim, such as the one that delivered him the message about the Thousandfold Thought.

Quote from: Kellhus
And without your eyes, your ability to discern what comes before is much reduced. The snakes are but pinholes. [...]

Then, about twelve years ago, you discovered the first of the Consult skin-spies - probably through discrepancies in their voices.

Kellhus is forgetting/never heard of one thing, namely that snakes, unlike humans, have an excellent sense of smell. My guess is that the all the Cishaurim can smell out the skin-spies. I don't think the Consult would have been unable to infiltrate the sizable territory controlled by the Fanim if it had been just Moënghus alone. At worst, the skin-spies would have been forced to mimic mute people. (And if you don't believe in the scent theory, my second-most plausible choice is that Moënghus is able to do some sort of astral travel thing to scan people's souls. It isn't nearly as elegant and likely as the scent, thought.) "Lol! Nerdanel... (Madness)"

Then there's the issue of smelling emotions. I've heard dogs can smell fear. I have no idea about the rest of the feelings, but if they can be smelled, count on Moënghus being able to do so.

Quote from: Moënghus
I have some facility for those elements of Psûkhe that require more subtlety than power. Scrying, Calling, Translating...

Unsaid: Illusion, Possession... (Remember Aurang.) Even if you believe that Moënghus isn't very powerful in the Water and isn't misleading Kellhus to underestimate him about that, he can still pack a punch.

A particularly interesting detail is how Serwë and Cnaiür appeared just after Kellhus had stabbed Moënghus. That level of coincidence suggests planning, and if you remember that both Kellhus and Cnaiür had been summoned there by Moënghus...

You know, I think the Moënghus Kellhus is talking to isn't really Moënghus. I think he's possessing someone his height and relying on illusion for the rest. I think he arranged the meeting with Kellhus fully intending to get "killed" so that Kellhus would think himself forevermore free from his father's manipulation, thus making him controllable. And I think he probably used possession to make Kellhus stab him at exactly the right moment, so that Kellhus thought it was his idea.

I do think Moënghus was the big winner of the trilogy. He controls the Shriah and (indirectly) the Aspect-Emperor. I also suspect he or a puppet of his may become the Heresiarch now that Seökti is dead. Mallahet's rivals have died mostly defending Shimeh, so that he could finally overwrite that pesky rule about the non-Kianene without too much opposition. That about wraps it up for the control of the formerly-fractitious Three Seas. Char and ruin here we come!"

Yeap. Meppa = Moenghus = Mallahet :D!
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: What Came Before on April 26, 2013, 04:12:11 pm
Quote from: Curethan
Well, some problems are that Kellhus relies on induction of the Cishurim metaphysic, which he explains to Akka.  He also had access to the intel of the Saik and innumerable Kainese captives.
Moenghus is distracted by the arrival of Cnaiur and company, which is what allows Kellhus to shiv him.
And most importantly, Meppa isn't covered in swazond.

Otoh, Moe does something weird in his final moments.
Quote from: TTT
And Moenghus was holding him, enclosing him, healing his innumerable scars.
...
"I am dying, Nayu. ... I need your strength."
...
He breathed shuddering air into Moenghus' hot mouth.  The snakes twisted through his hair, pressed hard and phallic against his temples.Cnaiur groaned.
...
Moenghus gasped, jerked and spasmed as Cnaiur rolled the Chorae across his cheek.  White light flared from his gouged sockets.  For an instant, Cnaiur thought, it seemed the God watched him through a man's skull.
What do you see?
But then his lover fell away, burning as he must, such was the force of what had possessed them.

Moe had just pwned two skin spies, he wasnt defenceless and he surely knew that Cnaiur had a chorae.  Mind swap maybe?
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: What Came Before on April 26, 2013, 04:12:19 pm
Quote from: Madness
I've highlighted either here or in the Meppa is X that his arms are never described. But +1 for detraction.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: What Came Before on April 26, 2013, 04:12:27 pm
Quote from: Wilshire
"I am dying, Nayu. ... I need your strength."

A pet name for Cnaiur, I suppose this is possible. But what if he has been dreaming the dreams, and he was seeing Nau-Cayuti.
Damn, the spelling is a bit off.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: What Came Before on April 26, 2013, 04:12:36 pm
Quote from: Callan S.
Cnaiur is pronounced 'Nayer' or alike, I think I heard somewhere.

(Nay-sayer, it always brings to my mind)

Quote
But then his lover fell away, burning as he must, such was the force of what had possessed them.
I think that's more a hint of how magic works.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: What Came Before on April 26, 2013, 04:12:43 pm
Quote from: Wilshire
Quote from: Callan S.
Cnaiur is pronounced 'Nayer' or alike, I think I heard somewhere.

(Nay-sayer, it always brings to my mind)
Ah well it was weak speculation anyway.
Quote from: Callan S.
But then his lover fell away, burning as he must, such was the force of what had possessed them.
I think that's more a hint of how magic works.

How so?
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: What Came Before on April 26, 2013, 04:12:50 pm
Quote from: Wilshire
*Wilshire uses revive*

Anyway, thought this was interesting:
The second quote for Chapter 15, which happens to be the very chapter that Kellhus finds the ruins that Moe is in.

"Like so many who undertake arduous journeys, I left a country of wise men and came back to a nation of fools. Ignorance, like time, brooks no return." - Sokwe, Ten Season in Zeum.
Also for those interested, Kellhus finds the entrance under the tree at pg 311 (TTT hardcover english edition).

This quote is just before Kellhus finds his father. It is here to prime the reader to see Moe as the ignorant fool, seeing Kell as the one who took the arduous journey and Moe as the would-be wise mine turned fool.

That can have 1 of 2 purposes that I can see. It could be false, to lead the reader to the wrong conclusion so that we can later examine the fallacies (phallusies i guess) and biases that the author can direct us too. It could true, to help guide the reader to the "proper" feelings of Kell-the-savior-of-the-world.

A third option could be its just in there for fun and its just a coincidence that Kell is coming to some kind of "home" and finding his wise-man father. That would be the simplest of all three explanations, and is therefore discounted :).

Regarding Kellhus and the possibility of him being crazy:
pg 316
"Though Moenghus's trail often passed through these grand dioramas, Kellhus found himself walking around - heeding some voice from nowhere"

A voice from nowhere, from the darkness, from the Trees perhaps?
Or the musings of a man gone crazy.

pg322 "Bronze weaponry and armor lay scattered across the steps, remnants of the ancient battle that had been lost here."

A topos perhaps? Nah.

Aside:
Since I don't currently recall where we were last discussion the possibility of Ishual being built on top of a Nonman Mansion, or that the Thousand Thousand Halls where some kind of old Mansion, I am going to put this here for safekeeping.

On page 315
Kellhus describing the ruins.
"So like the Thousand Thousand Halls ... So like Ishual"
...
"The work of Nonmen"
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: What Came Before on April 26, 2013, 04:12:58 pm
Quote from: Madness
Interlude: Ishual (http://secondapocalypse.forumer.com/interlude-ishual-t1249039-10.html) in the Unholy Consult forum ;)?

I really want to know more about the Kyudean Mansion and its history.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: Wilshire on May 06, 2013, 07:13:05 pm
Sigh. Leaving a big post and then not getting any replies makes me think I'm crazy. Talking to myself. Maybe I shall work harder to create misery. Misery makes memories, memories make sane.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: Triskele on November 22, 2013, 11:22:51 pm
Sigh. Leaving a big post and then not getting any replies makes me think I'm crazy. Talking to myself. Maybe I shall work harder to create misery. Misery makes memories, memories make sane.

How far would you go, Wilshire, to see your madness made sane?  How many atrocities heaped upon atrocities?  Would you murder the very world?


Heh, I'm glad I came back to this thread.  I hadn't seen the Nerdanel. 

I have built up, at least in my mind, the idea of Moe having larger designs to such a point that I'm already having to brace myself for disappointment.

One nitpick w/ the Nerdanel above:  I don't believe that Seokti is ever stated to have died.  It's strongly hinted since the Cishaurim are presumed wiped out, but it is kind of interesting that one of the few whose name is mentioned more than once is killed off camera or is unnamed in his killing.  If he's one of the five that Kellhus takes out at the end of the battle of Shimeh, I don't think he's named. 
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: Madness on November 23, 2013, 02:42:05 am
I heart this thread.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: MrGanondorf on February 20, 2014, 06:56:59 pm
@ lockesnow - It never occured to me that Moe 'rode' a sranc heard to the south.  It's a cool idea, but I still find it a hard sell.  Moe's encounter with the sranc always left me wondering what they hell they could have done to him and would the actions be on a level of "breaking" a dunyain (in the same manner Moe asserts that K is broken).  Mewonders if Moe was 'tainted' in some way and that it's going to effect the fulfillment of the TTT.

I'm hesitant to think that Moe simply overcame the sranc because (apparently) Kellhus did not and that would have been a phuckload more easy than fighting all the way to death's door just to be rescued by Cnaiur in the nick of time.

About your longer post--I LOVE IT!!!  I don't know if it's true, but I just love the idea that K's whole adventure follows Moe's plan (God has a plan for your life, Kellhus).  All those coincidences line up real nice to see Kellhus exalted and PERSONALLY CONVINCED of his special stature.  Plus all the other events too good to be true: Esmi's rare womb available at the right time, Akka pushed into Kellhus' path and preserved, a daimotic spared till he can teach, etc. 

I'm really hoping that TUC ends with a big reveal that someone's been masterminding the whole time and then BAM, but they didn't think of X!  But actually they did.  But they didn't think of Y!  But they did.  They thought of everyt..stabbed in the neck.  The NG is loosed without anyone to control him.

Moe's Plan reminds me of Gandolf taking care to off Smaug and a balrog before the final confrontation with Mordor.

The only ammendment I might propose: no reason that Moe must do it all alone.  He could stand at the head (or be a principal member) of a cabal of dunyain, cishaurim, and new/turned ensouled skinspies.  Whole hoards of markless sorcerers conditioning Kellhus' path from hobbit hole and back again.  Cish on hand to send dreams (just to K), Cish on hand to distract/prevent Mekeritrig overdoing it, Cish on hand to make sure Conphas wipes out Scylvendi to allow for Nansur might to join holy war and clear the path for the great ordeal later.

BUT, then I start to wonder if I'm just confusing Moe with Bakker.  Circumstances have to be contrived or else there is no story!  :(

I haven't thought about Conphas and Fanayal together as kids.  I think I'd like to see that in the Atrocity Tales.

About Conphas being both conditioned by Moe AND resistant to Kellhus, this, to me, made the conversion of the holy war possible in the manner of thesis- antithesis- synthesis.  Kellhus' eventual possession of the holy war (in that he holds their hearts like no other) needed a drama of tension to create the crisis moment when almost all of the holy war would suddenly become K's.  I think...
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: MrGanondorf on February 20, 2014, 06:57:30 pm
@ Sideris - that bit o' magic Moe did with Xerius, that's the perfect kind of thing to keep up communication between Ishual and Kyudea!

@ Callan - I don't disagree with you that Moe failed, but he had SOOO much time, part of me wonders if the appearance of failure was also part of how he saw the TTT.

LOL, dunyain fuckups lead to the last benchwarmer: Kellhus!  Srslytho, should I doubt that Kellhus is Moe's biological son?  It might serve the purpose to think Kellhus was being called especially when really he's just another promising male from the Anasurimbor stock.

@ The Sharmat - The idea of many Mallahets is just delicious!  Combine this idea with Moe's possible ability to create skinspies with souls--how many Mallahets are still walking around?  AND DID ONE OF THEM TAKE THE FALL FOR MOE; SKINSPY SLAVISHLY ALLOWS HIMSELF TO BE CHORAED DEEP IN THE EARTH!!!

Really like the idea of Moe sending Cnaiur dreams--this would allow Moe to condition him over the decades, from the shadows.  I'm not sure I trust any limitations on sorcerous dreams that are presented in the text.  Lies and ignorance could hide all kind of capacities.

@ Twooars - I definitely agree up to a point that Moe/Kellhus were taking rational gambles, so not all coicidence is meaningful in the story, but there seems too much of it to not smell of the unfolding of the TRILLIONFOLD THOUGHT

@ Wiltshire - "Simply put, Moe failed, was outsmarted (or at least out-lucked) by Kell and other circumstances, and died because of it. I sincerely doubt he had some super secret mega ultra KO punch that he was hiding, or some kind of amazing scheme that he was waiting to employ after faking this or that outcome. If he did, he wouldn't have risked everything for Kel."

I'm thinking that all had to be risked for Kellhus, because Moe/Dunyain require an exquisitely conditioned soul that will have something to do with causing/preventing the No-God.  Kellhus had to be juuuuuussst right.  IDK

As far as warring interpretations of the TTT, I'm betting that Moe got it right and Kellhus understood it as Moe wanted him to.  Maybe?

Man, you beat me to the kyudean topos ages ago!

@ Curethan - Well, idk that we should take anyone's word for it that the probability trance ever failed Moe.  Psukke is just the sort of thing to keep a dude alive while he's hanging from a tree and fill his head with odd notions.

BTW, i like your reading of the situation, but I REALLY LIKE how Bakker has set up the books to be read either way: gambles or the plan.

Love your reading of what it means to shine
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: locke on February 20, 2014, 11:27:20 pm
Kellhus is assuredly conditioned in his utter unquestioningness of himself.  Kellhus is all about "Everything I do is awesome! I am the awesome! Awesome awesome awesome!"  He is a guy who believes himself incapable of making a mistake, moreso, even than Conphas.

Something that should be stated in this thread as well.

Moenghus states he foresaw everything up until the Circumfixion in the Probability Trance.  At the nexus of the Circumfixion the Probability Trance failed him, it could never see beyond this.

After the Probability Trance failed, Moenghus began contemplating the Thousandfold Thought.

implicitly, the Thousand Fold Thought was intended to go beyond the Circumfixion. Explicitly, he says the Thousandfold Thought is a rule change intended to transform the very ground--the base conditions--of the world.

taking the latter route that would suggest that if the  TTT is just a viramsata, an megafauna-idea that changes the ground, that given different ground, the Probability Trance would no longer be stopped by the Circumfixion.  This is the "you were the only path" moment, meaning after Moe used TTT to change the ground, Kellhus was now a successful path through the circumfixion within the probability trance.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: The Sharmat on February 21, 2014, 03:17:21 am
I still think that Kellhus never truly grasped the Thousandfold Thought. He just thinks he has. But I'm a big proponent of the "The trial has broken him." position.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: themerchant on February 23, 2014, 05:25:34 pm
When he is talking with Moe he looks at his "halos" and thinks how can there be light that casts no shadow, am i mad? The light of delusion...

So he has some small internal doubt but then his actions show he hasn't really listened to it, he stabs moe, says he is more than Dunyain he is a harbringer, I'm not sure myself everything i see has merit and makes sense as an argument.

the kind of thing with Kellhus though is, all these little clues can be explained as him laying traps so folk believe false things, you can just continue spiralling down.

My own thought is just like all the actions in the Prince of Nothing everything is conditioned as well in The Aspect Emperor. Now there might be a moment in each trilogy where the conditoning breaks down,thwarting the conditoner in some, Kellhus on the circumfix in Trilogy one and becoming "broken" and perhaps the twin souled Crazy Kel in trilogy two.

I'm still thinking that Moe is still active in some capacity(but probably dead), after all you can't build walls against that which is secret.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: Wilshire on February 24, 2014, 05:03:23 pm

Something that should be stated in this thread as well.

Moenghus states he foresaw everything up until the Circumfixion in the Probability Trance.  At the nexus of the Circumfixion the Probability Trance failed him, it could never see beyond this.

After the Probability Trance failed, Moenghus began contemplating the Thousandfold Thought.

Disagree. Don't have my books to verify, but TTT existed (created?) before the cirumfixtion. Moe never states this kind of cause/effect relationship between that event and his grasping of TTT.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: locke on February 24, 2014, 05:51:48 pm
You're correct.  Moenghus' monologue ends with "this is where the probability Trance failed me." speaking of course of the Circumfixion.

Then Kellhus takes over the monologuing. Moenghus briefly protests that the voices Kellhus hears are not part of TTT, Moenghus briefly protests that Kellhus is using words that are mechanisms of control, deceiving himself; Kellhus stumbles over a skull and then Moenghus starts agreeing with Kellhus (flattering him), and agrees with Kellhus the Consult must be stopped and agrees that Kellhus understands all of TTT, and that only Kellhus is the special super awesome snowflake that can save the world (more flattery). 

So Kellhus' conclusions about TTT come after the author indicate he is wrong (stumbling), and Moenghus' affirmation of Kellhus conclusions come after he starts to attempt to manipulate Kellhus through the usual mechanisms that Kellhus manipulates the worldborn.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: Wilshire on February 24, 2014, 08:20:46 pm
Sounds good to me. I thought you were saying that Moe actually said that TTT was caused by the failing of the probability trance. I misunderstood.

Out of curiosity, locke, do you think Moenghus created TTT or did it exist already, much like how the paths of the probability trance 'exist'  whether one is aware of it or not. Basically, is it a construct of Moenghus' mind to reach some goal, or is it an inevitability drawn from strict adherence to maths and probabilities?
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: Alia on February 24, 2014, 08:40:45 pm
"If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?" Sorry, just couldn't stop myself.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: Wilshire on February 24, 2014, 08:54:36 pm
Its a legit question, and an important distinction. If Moe created it, then its hard to really say that anyone is in control of it, or that anyone can 'surpass' him. But if its something that exists outside or Moenghus, who just happened to stumble upon it first, it becomes a lot easier to see how Kellhus might come before his father.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: MrGanondorf on February 25, 2014, 05:56:36 pm
Its a legit question, and an important distinction. If Moe created it, then its hard to really say that anyone is in control of it, or that anyone can 'surpass' him. But if its something that exists outside or Moenghus, who just happened to stumble upon it first, it becomes a lot easier to see how Kellhus might come before his father.

I hope it is revealed.  My hunch is that the TTT isn't anything more than what a dunyain would do losed in the world respective of certain goals.  If the dunyain is diff or the goals are, then the TTT appears different to that person.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: Wilshire on February 25, 2014, 08:47:09 pm
I'll try to remember your stance in the future, assuming my own assumptions are the same as others typically causes frustration. At this point I'm more on the fence, but I used to fully believe that TTT was just an extension for the probability trance.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: MrGanondorf on July 01, 2014, 04:49:43 am
When he is talking with Moe he looks at his "halos" and thinks how can there be light that casts no shadow, am i mad? The light of delusion...

So he has some small internal doubt but then his actions show he hasn't really listened to it, he stabs moe, says he is more than Dunyain he is a harbringer, I'm not sure myself everything i see has merit and makes sense as an argument.

the kind of thing with Kellhus though is, all these little clues can be explained as him laying traps so folk believe false things, you can just continue spiralling down.

My own thought is just like all the actions in the Prince of Nothing everything is conditioned as well in The Aspect Emperor. Now there might be a moment in each trilogy where the conditoning breaks down,thwarting the conditoner in some, Kellhus on the circumfix in Trilogy one and becoming "broken" and perhaps the twin souled Crazy Kel in trilogy two.

I'm still thinking that Moe is still active in some capacity(but probably dead), after all you can't build walls against that which is secret.

This part made me think that Moeghus deliberately left his snakes behind just so he could stand before his father with this moment of doubt.  Moe not having the snakes means he can just say "I don't know, I can't see" whereas if he had the snakes he would either confirm Kellhus view or deny it.  Either one Kellhus could take as proof that his own view was correct.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: MrGanondorf on September 05, 2014, 10:21:16 pm
First spotting of Moenghus!  Right after Kellhus leaves Ishual

Quote
"he [Kellhus] was battered by an endless succession of surprises; the thin warble of an unknown bird; burrs in his cload from an unknown weed; a SNAKE winding through a sunlit clearing, searching for unknown prey"
  TDTCB p 7 US paperpack, the prologue

In the next paragraph we get

Quote
"His surroundings INHABITED him, POSSESSED him, until he was moved by all things at once"

So Moenghus is using the Psukhe on unsuspecting Kellhus.  Bakker hints at it with "inhabited" the same word Kellhus used to describe Moenghus' relationship to Cnaiur to...uh...Cnaiur.

Very next paragraph is the twig moment which is bookended in TTT right before Kellhus runs off to Kyudea.

Further down the page we see the Psukhe reducing Kellhus into a tabula rasa
Quote
"Like a sheet of parchment exposed to the elements, each day saw more words stolen from him--until only one imperative remained: Shimeh...I must find my father in Shimeh"

nother hint just after

Quote
"His disPOSSESSION deepened, until he no longer slept or ate."

In the next section, Moenghus must be wrapping up the session of Psukhe remolding

Quote
"As the evening waxed, it began to rain.  Through branches he watched the clouds build chill and grey.  For the first time in weeks, he sought shelter."
P 9

Further down the page, more hint
Quote
"If the wilderness could not POSSESS him, it would kill him."

After that Moenghus waits until Kellhus collapses in the snow and then psukhe-directs an unknowing Leweth to the rescue.

Kellhus is all better at Leweth's making the time between leaving Ishual and being found by the trapper the most personally tumultuous time for Kellhus until the Circumfix.

Of course the Circumfix is also all psukhe-conducted.  The Cishaurim are there, they make voices for Cnaiur to hear but no one else, they give Kellhus dreams, mold his soul, they make it possible for him to pull out his own heart, survive, and leave no mark.

--------

Another hint?  P. 11
Quote
"Leweth would watch from across the fire, his hands living an ARCANE life of their own"

Leweth, the carefully chosen (crafted?) template, the lense through which Kellhus sees all other world-born.  Maybe Leweth is Ultra-Dunyain, able to fool even Kellhus with appearances?
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: MrGanondorf on September 05, 2014, 11:03:41 pm
More stuff about Moe being the puppet master:

Kellhus thinking about how far he's come just before he gives his speech to inspire the troops to take Shimeh without him.  TTT US paperback p 276

Quote
"He could remember, perfectly, what it had been like those three years past, stepping from the shadow of Ishual's Fallow Gate.  Countless tracks had fanned out from his feet, leading to countless possible outcomes...But those futures, he know knew, had been murdered long before.  The ground he traveled had been Conditioned through and through...Even here, standing before Shimeh, he executed but one operation in the skein of another's godlike calculation.  Even here, his every decision, his every act, confirmed the dread intent of the Thousandfold Thought."

Contrary to what Moe says later, he DID see past the Circumfix!

Here, Moe is testing to see how well he controls Kellhus.  In the Kyudean mansion:

Quote
"Moenghus' trail often passed through these grand dioramas, Kellhus found himself walking around--heeding some voice from nowhere."
- p 316

Moe set the path and tests exactly where he can push Kellhus off it.  This happens right around the same time we get the juxtaposition of Iyokus using the Voice to move demons.

Another Bakker hint that Moenghus is the darkness that comes before Kellhus.  When Kellhus finally meets dad p 323

Quote
"The fires are for you," the figure said.  "I have lived in darkness for a long, long time."

Later Moe claims that the Probability Trance failed him at what would be the Circumfix.  Showing weakness to Kellhus to bolster Kellhus' view that he is superior to his dad, that he's moar.  Allowing Moe to work in the shadows.  Recall what Cnaiur tells Aurang earlier, p 111; Aurang is upset because Cnaiur says Kellhus is more than a match

Quote
Cnaiur cursed and laughed.  "Would you like to know what a Dunyain would hear in your words?"

"And what might that be"

"Posturing.  Vanity.  Weakness that betray your measure and offer innumerable lines of assault.  A Dunyain would grant you your declarations.  He would encourage you in your confidence.  In all things, he would dispense flattering appearances.  He would care nothing whether you thought him your lesser, your slave, so long as you remained ignorant."

Moenghus uses the same line on Kellhus that Kellhus uses on others.  P 362

Quote
He reached out as though to clasp Kellhus's wrist or hand, but halted the instant Kellhus shrank back.

"But why, my son?  Why ask me what you already know?"

--------------------------

One big hint?  That these lines are soooo close together p 368

Quote
"Yes," Kellhus murmured.  "He speaks to me as well."
WHAT AM I?
"The No-God?" Moenghus asked.

Moenghus has crafted the next No-God, Kellhus.

---------------------------

Whatever is true of Moenghus, Kellhus is definitely somebody's tool.  He is directed from the darkness in his own soul.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: The Sharmat on September 05, 2014, 11:14:27 pm
I really can't follow you that far, sorry. While those are all possible explanations, I think the more common explanation offered for those events are more parsimonious.

I do have one huge reservation about what you seem to be suggesting RE: Kellhus and Moenghus using the Psukhe on him. It's implied a few times in the books that the Cants of Compulsion do permanent damage whenever they're used, and even while the Cant is still working you're somehow lesser than you were before, they break you in some way, and make you never whole again. Xinemus's continuing derangement is evidence of this. It's not just due to the trauma of being made to mean what you do, of not knowing where you end and the other begins. Something breaks in you afterwards. Perhaps something in your soul, since that's what's being directly brutalized. Achamian thinks about this when he considers using the Cants on Inrau. I think to use the Cants of Compulsion on a Dunyain would be to take away all the advantages of having a Dunyain on your side in the first place.

Also why wouldn't he just implant the goal "Shimeh...I must serve my father in Shimeh" and thereby avoid embarassing situations like Kellhus bringing people to kill him instead of aiding him?

Incidentally Esmenet is either extraordinarily strong-willed given how few ill-effects she experienced after Aurang used the Cants on her, or something about the Cants of Compulsion Aurang uses are fundamentally different. I suspect the latter. In no other instance do the Cants demonstrate the effect on those they're used upon that Aurang's did on Esmenet. In all other instances, the Cants make the victim simply come to the conclusion that what you said was true and what you wanted them to do was right, all the while feeling that it was of their own free will. And there's elements of that with Esmenet. But Esmenet isn't just compelled by Aurang, she's possessed by him. Utterly consumed by him. Her own identity vanishes entirely, and Esmenet becomes little more than another body for Aurang to inhabit, like the Synthese.

I don't think during Akka's interrogation that Xinemus becomes Eleazaras at any point. This is something different. Perhaps another hint that this is a whole other level of sorcery is that the flow of information actually went both ways this time, with Esmenet getting some fleeting impressions and memories that in fact belonged to Aurang.

So basically I challenge that Aurang simply used the traditional Gnostic Cant of Compulsion on Esmi.

"His surroundings INHABITED him, POSSESSED him, until he was moved by all things at once"

So Moenghus is using the Psukhe on unsuspecting Kellhus.  Bakker hints at it with "inhabited" the same word Kellhus used to describe Moenghus' relationship to Cnaiur to...uh...Cnaiur.

Two things

1. I don't think this is a hint from Bakker because the entire reason Kellhus used the word "possessed" when speaking to Cnaiur that time was because he could see the word forming in Cnaiur's mind and wanted to gain leverage by confirming to Cnaiur what Cnaiur wanted to believe (That Cnaiur bore no responsibility for his father's murder, was merely an instrument of someone else and so could not be a murderer by definition)

2. The relationship is irrelevant anyway because Moenghus never needed to use the Psukhe to "inhabit" Cnaiur. Which he couldn't have anyway, since he hadn't learned it yet.

Further down the page we see the Psukhe reducing Kellhus into a tabula rasa
"Like a sheet of parchment exposed to the elements, each day saw more words stolen from him--until only one imperative remained: Shimeh...I must find my father in Shimeh"

I actually think this is a deliberate echo of Kellhus' whelming in the flashback later in the book, with the phrase "The Logos is without beginning or end." replaced with "Shimeh".

What's reducing him to a tabula rasa is his inability to cope with a world where thousands of new stimuli occur at once after living 30 years of his life in a place where absolutely everything, down to the falling of leaves, was premeditated. He's experiencing sensory overload, and shutting down to compensate.


"His disPOSSESSION deepened, until he no longer slept or ate."
Again, this is a second Whelming for Kellhus, analogous to the growing disconnect between his mind and his body as he endlessly repeats the proposition in his mind, soiling himself and barely noticing, certainly not caring. Just repeating the proposition.

Further down the page, more hint
"If the wilderness could not POSSESS him, it would kill him."
The Wilderness in this second Whelming is analogous to the Legion Within in his first Whelming. The whelming is almost done and the constant tugging of the thousand variables (like the constant beseeching, almost heard voices of his unacknowledged thoughts and feelings in the Whelming) are becoming desperate to drag him down.

Kellhus is all better at Leweth's making the time between leaving Ishual and being found by the trapper the most personally tumultuous time for Kellhus until the Circumfix.
...and his hardest trial since his Whelming. (though I'd argue the Circumfixion was his third Whelming. Kellhus is reborn as a person after each one, and each marks a significant departure from who he was before:

1st Whelming: His Whelming with the Pragma. Begins as a child under the sway of the Legion. The child dies and is reborn a Dunyain Monk, one of the conditioned.

2nd Whelming: Begins as a Dunyain Monk, incapable of letting a single variable slip past his notice even when he wants too, though the constant stimuli nearly drives him mad and kills him, or reduces him to the state of an animal. The Monk dies and Kellhus becomes a his father's son, a Dunyain of the World, able to ignore through the howling of the legion of uncertainties and unerringly find the shortest path, now concerned only with the mission.

3rd Whelming: The Circumfixion. The Dunyain son of Anasurimbor Moenghus dies, and Kellhus the Prophet/God is born. This is when he stops being Dunyain entirely, and becomes something More. (or something Less. It remains to be seen.)

Aspect Emperor Spoilers
(click to show/hide)

Of course the Circumfix is also all psukhe-conducted.  The Cishaurim are there, they make voices for Cnaiur to hear but no one else, they give Kellhus dreams, mold his soul, they make it possible for him to pull out his own heart, survive, and leave no mark.
That's a lot of big jumps of logic and assumptions about the abilities of the Cishaurim. Is it not simpler, requiring less assumptions to simply believe that even a Dunyain body can only deal with so much stress, pain, dehydration, and sleep deprivation before it begins to hallucinate? Or he's actually Divine and talks to the No-God or something, I guess. I don't favor that view but suit yourself.

And really, if Moenghus controlled and calculated this much of Kellhus' journey, how did he wind up getting himself killed and totally misjudging Kellhus' motives? Especially if he had invisible Cishaurim following him around all the time.

Another hint?  P. 11
"Leweth would watch from across the fire, his hands living an ARCANE life of their own"
To a Dunyain fresh out of the monastery, anything to do with rituals or Gods is the same thing as sorcery. And sorcery is just bullshit and superstition. This is what is meant by "Arcane".Leweth's hands are animated about the tasks of magic thinking.

Leweth, the carefully chosen (crafted?) template, the lense through which Kellhus sees all other world-born.  Maybe Leweth is Ultra-Dunyain, able to fool even Kellhus with appearances?
If that's the case then Moenghus had a hell of a powerful agent turned into Sranc fodder on the ass end of the Old North.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: MrGanondorf on September 05, 2014, 11:53:57 pm
Oh yeah, it's just speculation :)  If it's going to be a surprise, Bakker would have to hide it in ambiguity.

I don't think that a Dunyain armed with the Psukhe would necessarily damage a soul, or damage it in a manner that would make the soul useless.

Quote
Also why wouldn't he just implant the goal "Shimeh...I must serve my father in Shimeh" and thereby avoid embarassing situations like Kellhus bringing people to kill him instead of aiding him?

I wager that Moe needs Kellhus to believe a certain way.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: The Sharmat on September 06, 2014, 12:04:13 am
So you'd argue there's a decent chance that the Psukhe's version of the Cants of Compulsion would be more...subtle and less damaging on a fundamental level?

I suppose that would sort of fit with how they leave no mark.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: MrGanondorf on September 06, 2014, 12:12:29 am
So you'd argue there's a decent chance that the Psukhe's version of the Cants of Compulsion would be more...subtle and less damaging on a fundamental level?

I suppose that would sort of fit with how they leave no mark.

i don't know if the property would be in the magic so much as in the intellect that wields it.  we don't know how much of a neuropuncture moe is, he could be the sorcerous equivalent of perfect brain surgeon!

but maybe not.  the longer i wait for tuc, the crazier the theories will get.  maybe if we make enough, we'll hit on the right thing and Madness will remove it, signaling the truth!
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: Wilshire on September 11, 2014, 01:56:17 pm
Occam's Razor, MG. I think you have dug too deep.

Sharmat, can you explain to me why you used Whelmingly to describe Kell's various life stages, and if its a different definition of Kellhus' whelming of Esmi and his children?
On that note, the death/birth of different lives reminds me of how I believe the Nonmen survive thorugh the ages, Cleric claiming that Nil'Giccas is dead.

On Esmi, doesn't Kellhus do a Whelming on her after she is possessed? Erasing her memories of the encounter after he learns all he can from them? Or maybe he only did that with Serwa
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: locke on September 11, 2014, 03:48:29 pm
Yup I've seen a lot of this.  Kellhus random wandering off the path by a voice that moves him effortlessly is very telling.

Also around all those suspicious moments of the prologue is water imagery.  If the wilderness is a second whelming it was certainly directed by moenghus.

Compare Kellhus experience of having the parchment of his soul scraped clean to the transfiguration moment of esmenet having the parchment of her soul scraped clean.

Also interesting to note that concepts like parchment and soul are retained by the Dunyain as well as the concept and use of metaphor that connects parchment to soul. Metaphors are inherently deceiving,  so you would think they'd be eliminated.

All typ0s courtesy of Samsung.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: Wilshire on September 11, 2014, 06:06:45 pm
I think much of Kellhus' POVs that are inconsistent with truly Dunyain concepts can be hand-waived. I feel like a Dunyain wouldn't even have any internal dialogue, or outward dialogue for that matter, but there would just be no way to portray them otherwise. Bakker had to write something...

The language chosen for us is still important, but the method of conveyance, words, was a necessary evil since it is in fact a book.

Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: The Sharmat on September 11, 2014, 08:59:52 pm
Also around all those suspicious moments of the prologue is water imagery.  If the wilderness is a second whelming it was certainly directed by moenghus.
Why would he need to direct it? He'd moved through the wilderness himself and knew full well what so much new stimulli would do to a Dunyain. Kellhus would either become stronger or die.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: Wilshire on September 12, 2014, 03:21:06 pm
Also around all those suspicious moments of the prologue is water imagery.  If the wilderness is a second whelming it was certainly directed by moenghus.
Why would he need to direct it? He'd moved through the wilderness himself and knew full well what so much new stimulli would do to a Dunyain. Kellhus would either become stronger or die.
Because he couldn't take the chance that he would die?
Or, Moe knew he would need to condition every step of the way so that Kellhus came to him exactly the way he needed...

Both explanations seem unlikely.

My main issue, though, is if Moe was indeed so powerful, why bother sending for his son at all? Maithanet could have delivered the Holy War to Shimeh in any manor that Moe wanted him to. Full strength, half strength, nearly dead, whatever. He could seize all the schools himself or using a proxy, hell he could have used Maithanet for that as well after he won/lost the Holy War.

If Moenghus was as mighty as some want to believe, there is really no reason at all for Kellhus. If there was something he needed another full Dunyain for (which there doesn't seem to be a need for since Maitha is so well adjusted), he could just magic himself to Ishual and compel any number of Dunyain to do his bidding. Since he's Anasurimbor, he'll naturally live very long, and at some point he could start taking Chanv and add another 50 years.

No time limit, no physical or metaphysical barriers he cannot overcome, nothing that he can't convince others to do. He could join/destroy the consult, save/damn humanity, destroy/help the Nonmen, seal the world or keep it open. No reason for a son who might break along the way or otherwise foil his plans.
Basically, all the things we have seen Kellhus do could have been done by Moenghus, and far far more, since he could use the Psuke and the meta-gnosis, and have better control/insight into the outside because of his blindness/third-vision.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: SilentRoamer on September 12, 2014, 07:35:07 pm
I think Moe fucked up every step of the way.

Kellhus stabbed him in the heart - the fibrous skull is annoying.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: Cüréthañ on September 12, 2014, 11:43:11 pm
Bumping a skull is not really good evidence of overarching fallibility to me. 

I read stumbling over the skull as a metaphor of Moe's hidden sins that lead to Kellhus' decision to kill him.  Y'know - why are there skulls just left lying around?
"When you realize the fact of your damnation..." and all that...

I doubt even Kellhus plans against stubbing his toe in unfamiliar surrounds while moving through the dark.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: MrGanondorf on September 17, 2014, 05:12:59 am
Yup I've seen a lot of this.  Kellhus random wandering off the path by a voice that moves him effortlessly is very telling.

Also around all those suspicious moments of the prologue is water imagery.  If the wilderness is a second whelming it was certainly directed by moenghus.

Compare Kellhus experience of having the parchment of his soul scraped clean to the transfiguration moment of esmenet having the parchment of her soul scraped clean.

Also interesting to note that concepts like parchment and soul are retained by the Dunyain as well as the concept and use of metaphor that connects parchment to soul. Metaphors are inherently deceiving,  so you would think they'd be eliminated.

All typ0s courtesy of Samsung.


Love that!  So much in this story depends on who is Onkhis in relationship to who else!
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: MrGanondorf on September 17, 2014, 05:27:08 am
A bit more to add to Cishaurim Behind It All Hypothesis--

As Cnaiur and the skinspies approach Kyudea, they come across dead Nansur.  Presumably, Kellhus came upon them, murdered them, and skipped off to see daddy.  The one weird thing, one of the skin spies says "Are you sure it was him...We smell others...Fanim."

It didn't say Kianene or Xerashi or whatever.  It said Fanim as if it could smell religion!  I have no idea what this could mean unless it refers to a distinctive smell common to water-bearers.  The Scarlet Spires seem to think that such a thing is possible, that's why they started using trained dogs in their Ainoni fortress after the assassination of Sasheoka.  If they are smelling Fanim, that would fit with the Cishaurim manipulating events just out of sight.  No mark!  No mark!
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: locke on September 17, 2014, 05:34:22 am
The whole concept of "no mark" is very dunyain if you think about it, no one ever knows the world has been manipulated by sorcery because the cishaurim leave no mark.

... damn... that would mean the cishaurim are the second foundation!

All typ0s courtesy of Samsung.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: MrGanondorf on September 17, 2014, 05:44:25 am
The whole concept of "no mark" is very dunyain if you think about it, no one ever knows the world has been manipulated by sorcery because the cishaurim leave no mark.

... damn... that would mean the cishaurim are the second foundation!

All typ0s courtesy of Samsung.


The psukhe doesn't even leave whatever tips off people that they are nearing topoi!  I would put the Cishaurim down as a Dunyain construct rather than the other way around.  Fane was another son of Ishual sent out into the world.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: MrGanondorf on September 18, 2014, 05:10:45 am
Cishaurim watching over Kellhus in the north might also help explain how he got away from Mekeritrig.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: Wilshire on September 18, 2014, 01:02:12 pm
Cish being the second foundation, or Fane being a Dunyain are possibilities I can accept, or at least find feasible.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: MrGanondorf on September 24, 2014, 06:31:07 pm
i'm not even sure i finished foundation book1, looks like i'm missing out...
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: Wilshire on September 24, 2014, 07:22:40 pm
You should get around to book 1, its not particularly long, and its a classic ;)

The Second Foundation is basically a SPOIL ALERT (i guess) a hidden, secret society that is is many ways the opposite of the First Foundation, though with the same goal, which happens to be saving the universe.

Its kind of similar to the yin/yang of Dunyain/Cishaurim. One physical and emotionless, the other more nebulous/metaphysical and emotional. Both required to save the universe, but not to meet until the time is right. Second Foundation knows of the First, but the universe (and the other Foundation for that matter), either doesn't know or doesn't believe in the existence of the Second.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: MrGanondorf on September 24, 2014, 08:03:01 pm
that's awesome!  will read!
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: The Sharmat on February 02, 2015, 07:29:30 am
Cishaurim watching over Kellhus in the north might also help explain how he got away from Mekeritrig.
I think he got away from Mekeritrig because Mekeritrig didn't want to kill Kellhus. He wanted to hunt Kellhus for awhile and then kill him in a very memorable way. In the process he underestimated Kellhus, because Kellhus is a Dunyain, not a human.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: MrGanondorf on February 06, 2015, 03:55:29 pm
Cishaurim watching over Kellhus in the north might also help explain how he got away from Mekeritrig.
I think he got away from Mekeritrig because Mekeritrig didn't want to kill Kellhus. He wanted to hunt Kellhus for awhile and then kill him in a very memorable way. In the process he underestimated Kellhus, because Kellhus is a Dunyain, not a human.

idk, with all that Quya stuff, Mek could have done anything he wanted to Kellhus, right?  i have a hard time imagining Kellhus running faster than the geometries, so it makes me think Mek has a reason to let Kellhus go.  heck, maybe Mek didn't let Kellhus simply go after that, maybe Mek walked the sky and Kellhus didn't see him up there because Kellhus has a cognitive blind spot for humanoids being able to travel through the air.  Mek shadows Kellhus all the way to Atrithau or wherever, turning back whenever his unknown purpose is achieved.  Mek poking around ruins and crossing paths with the (allegedly) only Dunyain outside of Ishual has got to mean something
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: Simas Polchias on February 10, 2015, 12:30:50 am
Its kind of similar to the yin/yang of Dunyain/Cishaurim. One physical and emotionless, the other more nebulous/metaphysical and emotional. Both required to save the universe, but not to meet until the time is right.
From a certain point of view every cishaurim is the beautiful lil dot of darkness, who comes before the solitary dod (he cannot discern their wills from it's own, so their sorcery bears no mark). They are practically compulsing the self moving soul, these magnificent bastards.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: MrGanondorf on February 11, 2015, 05:24:42 am
Its kind of similar to the yin/yang of Dunyain/Cishaurim. One physical and emotionless, the other more nebulous/metaphysical and emotional. Both required to save the universe, but not to meet until the time is right.
From a certain point of view every cishaurim is the beautiful lil dot of darkness, who comes before the solitary dod (he cannot discern their wills from it's own, so their sorcery bears no mark). They are practically compulsing the self moving soul, these magnificent bastards.

i figured it might be the other way around -- they have no mark because the God is compulsing them?
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: The Sharmat on February 11, 2015, 07:56:11 pm
I think it's possible that all the explanations given for why they have no mark are just foundation-less speculation and no one knows. But that's not a very fun possibility to discuss because there's not really anything you can say about it.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: MrGanondorf on February 16, 2015, 08:11:20 pm
I think it's possible that all the explanations given for why they have no mark are just foundation-less speculation and no one knows. But that's not a very fun possibility to discuss because there's not really anything you can say about it.

lol, too true -- have we left anything out?  perhaps the Psukhe is not really some other kind of magic, it is just like the gnosis/anagogis but it combines that sorcery with the aporos.  the mark appears absent but in truth it is simply being scrubbed away instantaneously!
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: Wilshire on February 16, 2015, 08:16:48 pm
Interesting thought, could be ;)

One might mention that Chorae have their own mark of some kind that is visible by The Few. Presumably, the other schools would be less (or more) afraid of the Psukhe if it stained the world like chorae do.

Imagine, whole swaths of land that appeared through their eyes as pure, irrevocable, inevitable, and unassailable death.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: MrGanondorf on February 16, 2015, 08:33:29 pm
Interesting thought, could be ;)

One might mention that Chorae have their own mark of some kind that is visible by The Few. Presumably, the other schools would be less (or more) afraid of the Psukhe if it stained the world like chorae do.

Imagine, whole swaths of land that appeared through their eyes as pure, irrevocable, inevitable, and unassailable death.

i don't understand that last part! :(
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: Wilshire on February 16, 2015, 09:11:49 pm
Schoolmen freak out when they see chorae, makes them uncomfortable. Rather than a single point in space, it would be the whole area the psuke affected.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: The Sharmat on February 17, 2015, 01:43:36 am
Chorae apparently feel like points of vast emptiness desperate to swallow you to the few, yeah. So it's not a pleasant sensation to have multiplied.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: MrGanondorf on February 18, 2015, 01:17:41 am
Schoolmen freak out when they see chorae, makes them uncomfortable. Rather than a single point in space, it would be the whole area the psuke affected.

danke!
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: MrGanondorf on October 13, 2015, 02:05:52 pm
HEY HEY HEY A QUESTION!!!

perhaps its just early onset of senility, but i cannot now remember why Kellhus was in such a hurry to talk to Moe Sr while the Shimeh battle was going on...
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: H on October 13, 2015, 02:42:04 pm
HEY HEY HEY A QUESTION!!!

perhaps its just early onset of senility, but i cannot now remember why Kellhus was in such a hurry to talk to Moe Sr while the Shimeh battle was going on...

We don't really know, as far as what we're told:

Quote
She gingerly stepped back, the better to look up into his eyes. “Where are you going?”
He studied her for a moment. In the distance beyond him, Shimeh looked both intricate and stone-ancient, a great fossil uncovered by the wash of tides.
“To Kyudea.”
Esmenet scowled. Kyudea was Shimeh’s dead sister, destroyed long ago by some Ceneian Aspect-Emperor whose name she couldn’t remember. “Your father’s house,” she said sourly.
“Truth has its seasons, Esmi. Everything will be made clear in due course.”
“But, Kellhus …” What did it mean that they had to assail Shimeh without him?
“Proyas knows what must be done,” he said decisively. “The Scarlet Spires will act as they see fit.”
Desperation welled through her. You can’t leave us.
“I must, Esmi. I answer to a different voice.”

I also stumbled on this curious passage from right as he starts his journey:

Quote
“What was I to do?” he replied. “They attend only to what lies before their eyes. They listen only to what pleases their ears. Things unseen, things unheard … they trust to you.”
The wind subsided, leaving an unearthly silence in its wake. He heard the pasty hiss of maggots squirming through the gut of a dead crow some five paces to his right. He heard the chatter of termites seething beneath the bark of the surrounding oaks.
He tasted the sea on the air.
“What was I to do? Tell them the truth?”
He stooped, pulled a twig from the straps of his right sandal. He studied it by moonlight, followed the thin, muscular branchings that seized so much emptiness from the sky. Tusk sprouting from tusk. Though the trees about him had died seasons previously, the twig possessed two leaves, one waxy green, the other brown …
“No,” he said. “I cannot.”

A certain parallel to the twig from the prologue, no doubt.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: MrGanondorf on October 13, 2015, 03:02:59 pm

HEY HEY HEY A QUESTION!!!

perhaps its just early onset of senility, but i cannot now remember why Kellhus was in such a hurry to talk to Moe Sr while the Shimeh battle was going on...

We don't really know, as far as what we're told:

Quote
She gingerly stepped back, the better to look up into his eyes. “Where are you going?”
He studied her for a moment. In the distance beyond him, Shimeh looked both intricate and stone-ancient, a great fossil uncovered by the wash of tides.
“To Kyudea.”
Esmenet scowled. Kyudea was Shimeh’s dead sister, destroyed long ago by some Ceneian Aspect-Emperor whose name she couldn’t remember. “Your father’s house,” she said sourly.
“Truth has its seasons, Esmi. Everything will be made clear in due course.”
“But, Kellhus …” What did it mean that they had to assail Shimeh without him?
“Proyas knows what must be done,” he said decisively. “The Scarlet Spires will act as they see fit.”
Desperation welled through her. You can’t leave us.
“I must, Esmi. I answer to a different voice.”

I also stumbled on this curious passage from right as he starts his journey:

Quote
“What was I to do?” he replied. “They attend only to what lies before their eyes. They listen only to what pleases their ears. Things unseen, things unheard … they trust to you.”
The wind subsided, leaving an unearthly silence in its wake. He heard the pasty hiss of maggots squirming through the gut of a dead crow some five paces to his right. He heard the chatter of termites seething beneath the bark of the surrounding oaks.
He tasted the sea on the air.
“What was I to do? Tell them the truth?”
He stooped, pulled a twig from the straps of his right sandal. He studied it by moonlight, followed the thin, muscular branchings that seized so much emptiness from the sky. Tusk sprouting from tusk. Though the trees about him had died seasons previously, the twig possessed two leaves, one waxy green, the other brown …
“No,” he said. “I cannot.”

A certain parallel to the twig from the prologue, no doubt.

STRAIGHT UP PSUKHE-SUMMONED! Moe engineers it all!
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: Somnambulist on October 13, 2015, 03:47:13 pm
The simple answer: Kellhus had finally reached his destination.  All the manipulations he had enacted to find his father had gotten him within striking distance.  The Holy War had served its purpose and he had discarded it.  It was basically Leweth repeated on a larger scale.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: H on October 13, 2015, 04:01:28 pm
The simple answer: Kellhus had finally reached his destination.  All the manipulations he had enacted to find his father had gotten him within striking distance.  The Holy War had served its purpose and he had discarded it.  It was basically Leweth repeated on a larger scale.

Indeed, the twig certainly contrasts this as well.  In the prologue he contemplates and contemplates the twig.  Here, he examines it, and then discards it. 

The twig is the Shortest Path, the leaves, one Kellhus and one Moe.  Only one can live on this Path.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: Wilshire on October 13, 2015, 04:19:36 pm
I think the brown of the twig would be the paths not taken or not worth taking. The green the paths taken or still open. The dead past and the possibilities of future.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: MSJ on December 30, 2015, 09:56:03 pm
Ok I didn't really know where to post this, figured here was a good as anywhere.

Moe either turned into Meppa or ascended in Kyudea. Some of these thoughts are my own, most are a combination of scouring the forum.

1: That scene and everything that goes on under that tree is conditioned and Kellhus remarks upon this. (Another reason to wonder why Kellhus thought HE was the one in control.)

2: And I've never thought of this and seen Madness mention it in another thread. The Cishaurim seemingly sacrificing themselves while that meeting is occuring.

3: I have to believe Moe blinded his self either right before the meeting or very close to that point in time. This is why he
 is weak in the Water.

4: The swazond has a part in either healing to become Meppa or more souls to ascend.

5: The Skull. This is a direct clue on the part of Bakker to show us that everything isn't as it seems. Kellhus is being played.

6:The Chorae. Moe knew Cnaüir would've had it on him. I believe, yet cannot explain how, this cause the transfer or ascension.

7: Moe, another Dunyain, simply let's his son stab him, when seconds later he fends off 2 skin spys with ease. I ain't buying it, he needed to be in that state for a reason or something about being betrayed mad something possible. Either way, that doesn't happen unless Moe wants it.

8: it's Kyudea, the same exact spot that Inri ascended at. Coincidence? I think not.

9:Cnaüir, the link. The passion he needed, the utter devotion he needed in order to transform or ascend. Or love, because what does Cnaüir say over and over and over about Moe? He made him love.

I'm sure I'm forgetting something and if so I'll come back and add. Please feel free to add to this or chip it down. Either way I'm thoroughly convinced Moe had whatever went down planned and went the way he wanted it to.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: Odium on January 01, 2016, 05:28:18 pm
I have to say, I personally have begun to buy into the Moe + Cnauir = Meppa hype. Inri Sejenus ascended at Kyudea, and we have also hypothesized that love is somehow a purifying force? It seems like Serwe's utter devotion could have been what made Kellhus holy, what if Cnauir's to Moe is what enabled the transition? At the very least, food for thought.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: MSJ on January 01, 2016, 05:47:59 pm
I've been thinking more on this about the Cishaurim seemingly sacrificing themselves while all this was going on in Kyudea. Throw out that Moe blinded himself at that moment as I've suggested earlier. Moe using the chorae, Cnaüir, his swazond (souls) and all of the souls of the Cishaurim is what "created" Meppa. That's what Moe would be going for, right? Since he was weak in the water he wanted to take all of those things and be the most powerful Water-Bearer ever, Meppa. A Cishaurim who would be on par with Kellhus and his Gnosis.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: MrGanondorf on February 07, 2016, 07:42:55 pm
Is this a discrepancy or not?

Quote
Kellhus thinks "The ground he now travelled had been Conditioned through and through.  At every turn, the probabilities had been summed, the possibilities averaged, the forks impossibly predetermined ... Even here, standing before Shimeh, he executed but one operation in the skein of another's godlike calculation.  Even here, his ever decision, his every act, confirmed the dread intent of the Thousandfold Thought." (TTT US paperback 276)

And then when Moenghus is speaking to Kellhus...

Quote
"Sooner or later, the caste-nobility had to move against you.  Crisis was inevitable..."

"'This,' the eyeless face said, 'was where the Probability Trance failed me...'" (338)

I'm not accusing Bakker of making a mistake, I'm just wondering what to make of Kellhus' view that his path is wholly conditioned vs Moenghus' assertion that he could not see past a certain point.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: MrGanondorf on February 07, 2016, 08:32:43 pm
On another topic...

"'There is but one tree,'" the old man had said, his voice not his own, "'and I dwell beneath it.'"  (304)

Moenghus can be wherever blind men are?  It would be convenient then to have a blind man up in Ishual to maintain contact between the Dunyain and Cishaurim.  Maybe Iyokus speaks with Moe's voice.  Or maybe the old man in Gim was just channelling Moe the same way Moe channelled Skaurus in TDTCB?
Title: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: locke on February 08, 2016, 05:24:09 am
On another topic...

"'There is but one tree,'" the old man had said, his voice not his own, "'and I dwell beneath it.'"  (304)

Moenghus can be wherever blind men are?  It would be convenient then to have a blind man up in Ishual to maintain contact between the Dunyain and Cishaurim.  Maybe Iyokus speaks with Moe's voice.  Or maybe the old man in Gim was just channelling Moe the same way Moe channelled Skaurus in TDTCB?
Nope. Moe was skyping through the old man, that is all


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Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: MrGanondorf on February 08, 2016, 04:02:14 pm
On another topic...

"'There is but one tree,'" the old man had said, his voice not his own, "'and I dwell beneath it.'"  (304)

Moenghus can be wherever blind men are?  It would be convenient then to have a blind man up in Ishual to maintain contact between the Dunyain and Cishaurim.  Maybe Iyokus speaks with Moe's voice.  Or maybe the old man in Gim was just channelling Moe the same way Moe channelled Skaurus in TDTCB?
Nope. Moe was skyping through the old man, that is all


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ha! it just occurred to me--Moe could have sent up a Cishaurim to tell Kellhus, in the old, mundane way of gum-flapping about the tree ... BUT! since the Holy War is at pains to clear out any blind dudes, Moe or some other Cishaurim channel in an eyeball-equipped face onto the blind guy.  then Kellhus draws near and they turn it off to reveal him.  or, um, he just used a glamour to appear with eyeballs

on that topic, whatever the old man did to avoid appearing as a blind guy, i wonder if anyone in the Great Ordeal is a Cish agent under disguise?  maybe the glamour hasn't quite faded off the Captain when we last saw him at the end of WLW?  Sarl is Dunyain, of course, but could he also be Cishaurim?
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: themerchant on February 09, 2016, 03:53:15 pm
Isn't Moe eyeless when he meets the emperor in the first book?

Although in the scene with Kellhus he does leave pink imprints on the towel he dries his eyes with.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: Wilshire on February 09, 2016, 04:09:55 pm
Yes, blind.

That bit with the pink is odd. Should be nice and scarred over after 30 years, unless its constantly itchy.
Maybe its a Stigmata?
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: H on February 09, 2016, 04:20:08 pm
Yes, blind.

That bit with the pink is odd. Should be nice and scarred over after 30 years, unless its constantly itchy.
Maybe its a Stigmata?

Or the idea that he didn't actually blind himself until just before the Kellhus encounter is true...
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: MSJ on February 09, 2016, 04:44:43 pm
I've been thinking more on this and im gonna look very closely on re-read. But, when the Cish are got with chorae they go up in a flash of light. So, Moe, a Cishaurim (so we're told) is described as a salted husk after Cnaüir chorae's him. Something is not adding up to me.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: H on February 09, 2016, 05:11:32 pm
I've been thinking more on this and im gonna look very closely on re-read. But, when the Cish are got with chorae they go up in a flash of light. So, Moe, a Cishaurim (so we're told) is described as a salted husk after Cnaüir chorae's him. Something is not adding up to me.

I don't recall him salting:

Quote
Moënghus gasped, jerked, and spasmed as Cnaiür rolled the Chorae across his cheek. White light flared from his gouged sockets. For an instant, Cnaiür thought, it seemed the God watched him through a man’s skull.

The whole scene makes no sense still, because, even as Kellhus says, he is walking on conditioned ground.  The whole conversation and events of the encounter are conditioned.  I'm still not buying Moe completely discounting possibility that Kellhus came to kill him.  The whole thing was premeditated and I imagine Moe had contingency plans for whatever came of it.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: MSJ on February 09, 2016, 08:08:49 pm
Huh, it sounded good in my mind at least. Still I am gonna pay close attention on re-read and look for any discrepancies. I did read that scene again, and noticed Cnaüir knelt over his lovers corpse.....
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: Bolivar on February 09, 2016, 10:41:47 pm
Anybody ever work out how he was able to fend off the skin spies so easily?

Quote
  Serwë assailed him first, her limbs and blade a whirring blur. But he stopped her with blue-flashing hands, swatted aside her slender figure …

  Just as her brother descended, slashing at impossible palms, spinning and kicking, lunging and probing—only to be seized about the throat, to gape and thrash as the blind man lifted him off his feet, to blister and burn as blue light consumed his head, made a candle of his body. The thing’s face cramped open and the blind man threw him slack to the ground.

Doesn't sound like weak in the water. Maybe the weeping blood signals that Moe has mastered his passions?
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: MrGanondorf on February 10, 2016, 12:48:46 am
Isn't Moe eyeless when he meets the emperor in the first book?

Although in the scene with Kellhus he does leave pink imprints on the towel he dries his eyes with.

eyeless, yes?  UNLESS IT'S ALL GLAMOOUUUURRRRRR :P
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: MrGanondorf on February 10, 2016, 01:13:46 am
I've been thinking more on this and im gonna look very closely on re-read. But, when the Cish are got with chorae they go up in a flash of light. So, Moe, a Cishaurim (so we're told) is described as a salted husk after Cnaüir chorae's him. Something is not adding up to me.

I don't recall him salting:

Quote
Moënghus gasped, jerked, and spasmed as Cnaiür rolled the Chorae across his cheek. White light flared from his gouged sockets. For an instant, Cnaiür thought, it seemed the God watched him through a man’s skull.

The whole scene makes no sense still, because, even as Kellhus says, he is walking on conditioned ground.  The whole conversation and events of the encounter are conditioned.  I'm still not buying Moe completely discounting possibility that Kellhus came to kill him.  The whole thing was premeditated and I imagine Moe had contingency plans for whatever came of it.

that's another cool God/No-God movement--page 367 TWP--right after the bit you quoted there's this italicized bit

Quote
What do you see?
[/i]
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: H on February 10, 2016, 11:50:39 am
Anybody ever work out how he was able to fend off the skin spies so easily?

Quote
  Serwë assailed him first, her limbs and blade a whirring blur. But he stopped her with blue-flashing hands, swatted aside her slender figure …

  Just as her brother descended, slashing at impossible palms, spinning and kicking, lunging and probing—only to be seized about the throat, to gape and thrash as the blind man lifted him off his feet, to blister and burn as blue light consumed his head, made a candle of his body. The thing’s face cramped open and the blind man threw him slack to the ground.

Doesn't sound like weak in the water. Maybe the weeping blood signals that Moe has mastered his passions?

I've maintained that "weak in the Water" is absolutely a fabrication of Kellhus, made to chide Moe for picking the Psukhe where Kellhus achieved the Gnosis.  Moe is no more "weak in the Water" than Kellhus is weak in the Gnosis.

What is true is that the Gnosis is abstractly more powerful than the Psukhe.  However, Moe does things with the Water that had never been done.  The weakness isn't with Moe, it's a limitation of Water in and of itself, which he pushes to the limit just as Kellhus does with the Gnosis.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: Wilshire on February 19, 2016, 04:29:45 pm
All schoolmen, including the cish, die in exactly the same way when hit with a chorae. check the chorae thread, its all in there. Confirmation bias makes people think otherwise, but the words are all the same. There are always individual differences between schoolmen of all schools, but no one description is entirely unique to one school over another.

Moe does things with the Water that had never been done. 
Name a single thing that we know he has done that no one else has using the psuke.
We know so little about it, the mystery is what tricks some into thinking he's special, rather than any real evidence.

Anybody ever work out how he was able to fend off the skin spies so easily?

Quote
  Serwë assailed him first, her limbs and blade a whirring blur. But he stopped her with blue-flashing hands, swatted aside her slender figure …

  Just as her brother descended, slashing at impossible palms, spinning and kicking, lunging and probing—only to be seized about the throat, to gape and thrash as the blind man lifted him off his feet, to blister and burn as blue light consumed his head, made a candle of his body. The thing’s face cramped open and the blind man threw him slack to the ground.

Doesn't sound like weak in the water. Maybe the weeping blood signals that Moe has mastered his passions?

Disagree. Who else do we know uses magic to enhance physical ability? Oh right, Inrau, who doesn't even know the gnosis. At best, its a party trick. And lighting a fire? I imagine thats sorcery 101 wherever you end up.
Recall that Moe has been hunting, killing, and studying the spies for decades. He knows how to dispatch them, knows the measure of their strength, speed, flexibility, and the rigidity of their thought structure. He likely doesn't need water at all for the task, its just convenient to use the cantrips he knows to move things along.

What you see there is dunyain ability enhanced with the merest fraction of cishaurim magics. In short, exactly as described, a dunyain weak in the water.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: H on February 19, 2016, 04:47:48 pm
All schoolmen, including the cish, die in exactly the same way when hit with a chorae. check the chorae thread, its all in there. Confirmation bias makes people think otherwise, but the words are all the same.

Moe does things with the Water that had never been done. 
Name a single thing that we know he has done that no one else has using the psuke.
We know so little about it, the mystery is what tricks some into thinking he's special, rather than any real evidence.

Well, the assassination of Sasheoka, with their apparent "teleportation" is alluded to as unprecedented.  It's true though, we have to make inference, because we see so little, so we don't know for a fact whether he is or isn't actually strong.

I still don't believe that Kellhus or Moe are being at all truthful with each other in that scene though, I think it's all attempts and counter-attempts to gain the measure of each other.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: Wilshire on February 19, 2016, 05:35:26 pm
Not that I doubt it was Moe, but does he ever take credit for that, and/or is there anything direct that shows he was a driver for that attack?

Anyways, I read that scene differently. I think a lot of it is for the reader's benefit. Info-dump without stopping the story.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: Bolivar on February 21, 2016, 10:05:27 pm
Disagree. Who else do we know uses magic to enhance physical ability? Oh right, Inrau, who doesn't even know the gnosis. At best, its a party trick. And lighting a fire? I imagine thats sorcery 101 wherever you end up.
Recall that Moe has been hunting, killing, and studying the spies for decades. He knows how to dispatch them, knows the measure of their strength, speed, flexibility, and the rigidity of their thought structure. He likely doesn't need water at all for the task, its just convenient to use the cantrips he knows to move things along.

What you see there is dunyain ability enhanced with the merest fraction of cishaurim magics. In short, exactly as described, a dunyain weak in the water.

Very good analogy, although their comparative weakness does not come from the same place. Inrau's limitation comes from his inexperience, not an inherent incapacity. Achamian notes he has all the innate talents to wield sorcery, he just applied them to theology instead of the Gnosis. The allegation instead is that Moe does not have the capacity to use the brute strength of the Psukhe. I'm with H that it's the punctuation mark at the end of what we just heard, that it's not a question it's a fact, that Moenghus and Kellhus had been playing eachother the entire time.

Quote from: H
Well, the assassination of Sasheoka, with their apparent "teleportation" is alluded to as unprecedented.  It's true though, we have to make inference, because we see so little, so we don't know for a fact whether he is or isn't actually strong.

Kellhus suggests that the Cishaurum did that on their own after Moenghus brought the truth of the skin spies to them, that they could not but think it was the Scarlet Spires, no matter what Moenghus tried to say to stop them. But that creates the discrepancy between what Kellhus thinks is true versus what the reader naturally assumes - that Moenghus was somehow central to the assassination plot.

Something interesting to note is that it was the only other instance of teleporting in the series. Iyokus/Eleazarus described it as this impossible thing that left no mark of sorcery. The ending made it seem like what Kellhus did to teleport at the end, which Serwa also does in the sequel trilogy, was unprecedented, something that only he could figure out. Sorry I'm not providing quotes but I feel like that's another topic altogether.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: Wilshire on March 01, 2016, 07:01:26 pm
I don't think it was teleportation. Probably something more akin to walking the shadow way, like akka/xin did in TWP.  If they really thought it was teleportation, i doubt they would have bothered training dogs to smell saffron if they really thought that the Cish could just blink in whenever they wanted.

This also begs the questions, why, if they could teleport in, couldn't they teleport out after they kill the grandmaster? Teleportation that only works one way is much less useful.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: H on March 01, 2016, 07:52:58 pm
I don't think it was teleportation. Probably something more akin to walking the shadow way, like akka/xin did in TWP.  If they really thought it was teleportation, i doubt they would have bothered training dogs to smell saffron if they really thought that the Cish could just blink in whenever they wanted.

This also begs the questions, why, if they could teleport in, couldn't they teleport out after they kill the grandmaster? Teleportation that only works one way is much less useful.

Yeah, you are probably right.  Here, I was thinking it was akin to Kellhus' meta-Gnostic teleporting, but that is really improbable.

Thing I could think of is that however they did it takes intense concetration or something similar.  No doubt that once they actually killed him there wouldn't be time before all sorts of Wards and Cants were being lobed around, leaving no time to walk back out.

I doubt they even intended to, it was probably a suicide mission from the get-go.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: locke on March 02, 2016, 07:31:46 am

I don't think it was teleportation. Probably something more akin to walking the shadow way, like akka/xin did in TWP.  If they really thought it was teleportation, i doubt they would have bothered training dogs to smell saffron if they really thought that the Cish could just blink in whenever they wanted.

This also begs the questions, why, if they could teleport in, couldn't they teleport out after they kill the grandmaster? Teleportation that only works one way is much less useful.

Two reasons:
1. There must be cishaurim bodies as incontrovertible evidence for the scarlet spires to engage themselves with complete and total conviction to an eternal war with the cishaurim

2. Moenghus didn't come with them, he just opened the door. There was no one to open a door out.


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Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: Wilshire on March 02, 2016, 02:25:07 pm
Reason one is a possibility, but seems unlikely. Eleazarus went on and on about seeing sorcery without the mark, it was pretty clear that it was the Cish... However a little push to solidify that point might have seemed to be reasonable. Then again, sacrificing even a few Cishaurim seems way out of line with schoolman and Cishaurim philosophies. They value themselves so much.
A sacrifice only a dunyain could possibly extract.

For me, reason 2 doesn't make sense. If moe was able to open the portal from shimeh to get them there, he should be able to open it again, from shimeh, for them to come back through. Its the same, unless its a 1 way opening and you can only enter from where the portal is opened and exit where the portal ends up. We know teleporting works via kellhus, not sure why the cish and/or more would have a less functional method of it.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: H on March 02, 2016, 02:36:02 pm
Well, we don't really know if there is anything comparable from the Psukhe to the meta-Gnosis.  Is there a meta-Psuhke?  Is that even possible?

There are tons we don't know.  I still don't think they could have expected to walk back out, since the Spires would be literally be in the midst of all the highest ranking members.  However they got in, I doubt if it's a simple task you could do whole being assaulted by some of the strongest (non-Gnostic) sorcerers in the Three Seas.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: Wilshire on March 02, 2016, 02:48:56 pm
Whats curious is that they didn't storm the SS compound. Imagine if they walked in with the might of their school? There would have been no SS left. Their grandmaster, and most of their highest ranked members, would have died immediately in that room, and they wouldn't have had time to organize concerts. So much chaos, and at the center a cadre of  Cishaurim. They could have done so much more and probably lost even fewer.

The point kind of being that if they were really just looking for revenge of some sort against the SS for the skin-spy, why do so little? Must have been some other machinations - it must have been Moenghus.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: H on March 02, 2016, 03:00:02 pm
Whats curious is that they didn't storm the SS compound. Imagine if they walked in with the might of their school? There would have been no SS left. Their grandmaster, and most of their highest ranked members, would have died immediately in that room, and they wouldn't have had time to organize concerts. So much chaos, and at the center a cadre of  Cishaurim. They could have done so much more and probably lost even fewer.

The point kind of being that if they were really just looking for revenge of some sort against the SS for the skin-spy, why do so little? Must have been some other machinations - it must have been Moenghus.

My guess is that is the most they could teleport (or walk the Shadow Way) or whatever.

The other idea could be that they weren't sure what the response would be.  If they had everyone pop out and something disastrous happened, like, some kind of Ward they didn't anticipate, they'd have lost everyone.  The loss they took was big, but not devastatingly so.  Losing all their Primaries would probably have been the literal end.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: Cynical Cat on August 08, 2016, 01:50:21 am
All the evidence suggests that Kelhus is correct in his evaluation of Moenghus's strength. 

1) Moenghus admits that sending to Ishual tests his strength to the limit.  He could be lying, but he could also be telling the truth.

2) There was no teleportation involved in the Scarlet Spires assault.  Scott has confirmed that what Eli saw was the Cishaurim appearing from stealth, not them stepping across space.  That's why the Scarlet Spires responded in part by having patrols with trained dogs help secure the halls.

3) The two definite feats we've seen Moenghus perform are long range communication and incinerating a single Skin Spy.  Incinerating a single target is peanuts as far as sorcery goes in this series and long range communication is well within the capabilities for minor Schoolmen (as evidenced as Cnauir's force had a single acolyte as their long range communicator)

4) Moenghus does not instantly turn to salt when touched with a Chorae.  We know that especially powerful Quya begin to salt when close to a Chorae so the clear implication is that the more powerful the sorcerer, the more lethal the Chorae is.  And Moenghus doesn't go fast.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: themerchant on August 10, 2016, 03:36:32 pm
I think Moe and the chorae is more a function of how they interact with Cish as opposed to an indicator of power.

he also provided face time communication between the emperor and Skauras. Which is something the scarlet spires cannot do.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: Cynical Cat on August 10, 2016, 06:14:49 pm
The Cishaurim in the battle of Shimeh instantly went down when struck by Chorae, Moenghus did not so we can definitely tell his slow death wasn't due to him being Cishaurim.  As for the long range communication, the Scarlet Spires are capable of that and its easy enough that you don't need a sorcerer of rank to handle it.  It's clear that the long range communications powers of the Cishaurim work differently, but no other sorcerers blast people by pouring burning light from their foreheads either.  The Psukhe is different and there's no indication that sending Skaurus's image required brute strength as opposed to skill and we know Moenghus had skill.  Moenghus never demonstrates any sorcerous strength at all.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: Cynical Cat on August 11, 2016, 07:09:51 am
Upon consideration, we cannot rule out that particular form of long range communication from being within the capabilities of the other branches of sorcery.  It is the only instance that I can recall of communication between two fixed points at an appointed time.  All the other times its between an unknown point (the sender) and a fixed point (the receiver).  In the case of projecting Skaurus, it involves a scheduled appointment between Skaurus's citadel with an unknown number of Cishaurim and Moenghus at the other end in the Emperor's throne room.  I imagine it to be likely, given the broad capability overlap shone between the branches, that the other types of of magic could manage that as well.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: Madness on August 11, 2016, 02:35:23 pm
Upon consideration, we cannot rule out that particular form of long range communication from being within the capabilities of the other branches of sorcery.  It is the only instance that I can recall of communication between two fixed points at an appointed time.  All the other times its between an unknown point (the sender) and a fixed point (the receiver).  In the case of projecting Skaurus, it involves a scheduled appointment between Skaurus's citadel with an unknown number of Cishaurim and Moenghus at the other end in the Emperor's throne room.  I imagine it to be likely, given the broad capability overlap shone between the branches, that the other types of of magic could manage that as well.

Cnaiur's assigned a Sorcerer from the Spires at Joktha and he's required to sleep until noon or something in order to maintain scheduled communications with the Holy War.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: Cynical Cat on August 12, 2016, 05:39:11 am
Let me clarify.  Cnaiur's sorcerer is not a sorcerer of rank.  He's doing the same trick Akka does to communicate with the Mandate and Moenghus uses to contact the Dunyain:  he connects to a known location during dreams. The army marches to Joktha to await the fleet to take the Nansur home.  Mobile point.   

That's not what happens with Skaurus, which is unique.  It's not a simple projection but an interactive event set place and time with Skaurus and an unknown number of Cishaurim on the other side and Moenghus and the Emperor on the other.  It's not on It probably only requires one Cishaurim on Skaurus's side because it seems to be a sorcery that requires more skill than brute strength, but we don't know either way.  It's a singular, prearranged incident its performed only by the Cishaurum but there is no indication that it couldn't be done by the other types of sorcerers.  That particular combination of ability, need, and circumstance doesn't show up again.

So we don't know for sure either way, but there are several things we do know about sorcery.  The all share the same broad capabilities.  All of them can do dream sending and Anagogic and Gnostic Sorcery tend to do complexity better that the Psukhe.  So we don't know for sure that the Scarlet Spires can or cannot match that feat, but we do know that the available evidence strongly suggests that they can.
Title: Re: Moenghus is a lying liar who lies
Post by: Madness on August 13, 2016, 02:26:50 pm
So we don't know for sure that the Scarlet Spires can or cannot match that feat, but we do know that the available evidence strongly suggests that they can.

You've left it an open possibility :).