The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => Atrocity Tales => Topic started by: What Came Before on May 07, 2013, 01:48:39 am

Title: The False Sun
Post by: What Came Before on May 07, 2013, 01:48:39 am
Quote from: Madness
The False Sun (http://rsbakker.wordpress.com/stories/the-false-sun/)[/u]

A tale of Shaeonanra, Gift of Light, the Grandvizier of the Mengaecca shortly before he is convicted of impiety and his School is outlawed, a man well on his way towards his future as Shauriatas, the Cheater of the Gods.

Major Spoiler Rating for the Second Apocalypse
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: What Came Before on May 07, 2013, 01:48:45 am
Quote from: Sideris
I'm still torn at which of the current tales I like more. I love False Sun for the glimpse into the Consult's beginning, Titirga's sheer presence, the implications of Compulsion, and perhaps the funniest dick joke in all of Second Apocalypse so far. I'm desperately hoping Titirga may have a whole reference in the expanded encyclopedia coming out after TUC. His childhood blindness, the connections with blindness and the Outside that have been in constant debate since the books (and more importantly, since this came out as well) have made for excellent foof for thought in my off hours when I'm in an SA mood.
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: What Came Before on May 07, 2013, 01:48:52 am
Quote from: Jorge
Plainly.
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: What Came Before on May 07, 2013, 01:48:58 am
Quote from: cielago
Quote from: Sideris
the expanded encyclopedia coming out after TUC.

is this going to be a separate volume, or an expanded version of the one in the back of TTT? how confirmed is it?
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: What Came Before on May 07, 2013, 01:49:03 am
Quote from: Brother_Jacob
Its hilarious how Bakker gets attacked by some for his characterisation, and Martin gets praised for introducing the Red Viper and bringing him to life in a single chapter.  For mine Titirga is on par with Oberyn.

I do find his end underwhelming.  I suppose that was the point of it, but still.
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: What Came Before on May 07, 2013, 01:49:09 am
Quote from: Sideris
Honestly, seeing as he started shouting Cants as he was falling, I maintain - even with the mountain falling on his head - he was just working his way back up to deliver a beating after those two were finished jacking around. Clearly.

And @cielago, it's not really confirmed yet, but the more Bakker talks about it, the more it seems uncertainty creeps in. Seems like both are going to be huge works.
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: What Came Before on May 07, 2013, 01:49:14 am
Quote from: sciborg2
Did Seswatha see the Inverse Fire? And if sorcerers know they are damned, why become a sorcerer at all?
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: What Came Before on May 07, 2013, 01:49:19 am
Quote from: Callan S.
The massive power of the Tekne...
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: What Came Before on May 07, 2013, 01:49:25 am
Quote from: Cynical Cat
Quote from: sciborg2
Did Seswatha see the Inverse Fire? And if sorcerers know they are damned, why become a sorcerer at all?

Power, the fact that some believe they can cheat damnation, and that it is not merely sorcerers who are damned.
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: What Came Before on May 07, 2013, 01:49:29 am
Quote from: Swense
Quote from: Cynical Cat
Quote from: sciborg2
Did Seswatha see the Inverse Fire? And if sorcerers know they are damned, why become a sorcerer at all?

Power, the fact that some believe they can cheat damnation, and that it is not merely sorcerers who are damned.

I think there's a fair number of agnostic sorcerers too.
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: What Came Before on May 07, 2013, 01:49:36 am
Quote from: The Sharmat
I initially thought that there were actually some atheists kicking around in the Three Seas. Akka's roommate/lover laughing at the Tractate, Eleazaras despair upon his deciding Kellhus is a prophet and that they really are damned, etc...Not so sure now though.
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: What Came Before on May 07, 2013, 01:49:41 am
Quote from: Swense
Why aren't you sure any more? It stands to reason athiests would exist... I mean there's more direct proof of god in this universe, but it hardly availible to the average person or conclusive.
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: What Came Before on May 07, 2013, 01:50:18 am
Quote from: The Sharmat
Just seems later on that even in internal monologue no one ever doubts the existence of the Gods in some form.
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: What Came Before on May 07, 2013, 01:50:24 am
Quote from: Madness
Kellhus did go a long way to polarizing all atheists and agnostics. In my mind, you're a theist even if you think Kellhus is a demon. But most of the atheists and agnostics - many of them originally Schoolman - bent knee to a living God after the Prince of Nothing.

Its hard to be atheist or agnostic in light of Kellhus' "supposed" Divinity. He's offering freedom from damnation. And cookies.

Though, this is not a commentary on my belief on Kellhus. Just how he looks from inside these beliefs.
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: What Came Before on May 07, 2013, 01:50:32 am
Quote from: Swense
Quote from: The Sharmat
Just seems later on that even in internal monologue no one ever doubts the existence of the Gods in some form.

Agree with Madness. Plus, it's more the PoVs we get - most everyone is so wrapped up in Kellhusmania that being an atheist is unlikely, or after they've seen Cil-Aujas they've literally walked through hell so atheism would have to be reconsidered.
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: What Came Before on May 07, 2013, 01:50:38 am
Quote from: Callan S.
Ironically the Dunyain are an athiest sect.
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: What Came Before on May 07, 2013, 01:50:44 am
Quote from: Madness
So I'm not sure if Bakker edited the False Sun (http://rsbakker.wordpress.com/stories/the-false-sun/) at some point but a user by the name of Zacherson (http://rsbakker.wordpress.com/stories/the-false-sun/#comment-11021)[/b][/u] has made an interesting observation:

"It appears as though Shaeonanra and Aurang lose the ability to use sorcery after their acts were deemed “outrages” by whatever force judges them, either referring to their destruction of the Nonman mansion, the murder of Titirga, or both. This is something that is unprecedented in the series, although we are not entirely sure whether this prohibition is permanent ... Not once have readers seen one of the Few being stripped of their abilities."

The part he's referring to, I believe, is this:

At last they paused to regard their labour, the Inchoroi alighting upon the same spectral floor that bore Shaeönanra. Crimson sunlight bathed the southern ramps, inking the numberless crevices across the wrack and ruin. And they rejoiced, Man and Inchoroi…

They had no inkling of the greater violence their sorcery had unleashed.

The sky cracked. Iros shuddered. The impossible sun tipped and stumbled. Plumes of ejecta exploded from points along the mountain’s perimeter, scarcely visible for the Diurnal’s encompassing glare. The mound that had been Nogaral shrugged then slumped into its contradiction. It was as if a dome of cloth had been pressed into a dimple. Summit became basin. Illumination became shadow. The mountain had been rotten with Viri, its innumerable ways fractured by the cataclysmic impact of the Ark thousands of years before. The underworld mansion imploded, collapsed inward and downward, tier upon tier, hall upon hall, undone by this final indignity. This last outrage.

The Man and the Inchoroi toppled with it. Though suspended, they remained bound to the earth, and as with all drastic changes of circumstance, the meaning of their sorcery ceased to be. Only Aurang’s wings saved them. The Inchoroi seized the Man from kicking emptiness, bore him up beyond the Diurnal blue into the truth that was cold and night ... Shaeönanra laughed in the crazed, marvelling way of children who find their destruction multiplied beyond belief. Once again, he succumbed to the sacrilege of Fate, he who walked ways invisible to the Gods. He exulted at this Sign, rejoiced that his hated foe would have a pit and not a barrow to memorialize his fall.

I mean, it sounds like they just bore too deep trying to bury Titirga. However... Thoughts?

EDIT: In rereading, it sounds like they were using the echo of the Mountain, which was itself a rotten Nonmen Mansion, itself to float - sorcerers don't truly fly. Mansion collapses, no echo to walk on, the sorcery is momentarily useless, not permanently.
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: What Came Before on May 07, 2013, 01:50:50 am
Quote from: Callan S.
I think there are various references in the series to how sorcerers simply walk an echo of the earth. I think the sorcerer of the 'stone trolls' (IIRC) has a scene where the ground runs out for him and with it, so to the sorcerous echo he walks upon - and so he falls.

It's worth wondering why Earwa can't damn you when your alive, though. Why does merely being alive put you outside the grip of the very gods?
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: What Came Before on May 07, 2013, 01:50:56 am
Quote from: lockesnow
I saved the text of the false sun in a word doc the day it was posted, since revisions kept happening to the first atrocity tale.

here's the same passage from day 1

Quote
At last they paused to regard their labour, the Inchoroi alighting upon the same spectral floor that bore Shaeönanra. Crimson sunlight bathed the southern ramps, inking the numberless crevices across the wrack and ruin. And they rejoiced, Man and Inchoroi…

They had no inkling of the greater violence their sorcery had unleashed.

The sky cracked. Iros shuddered. The impossible sun tipped and stumbled. Plumes of ejecta exploded from points along the mountain’s perimeter, scarcely visible for the Diurnal’s encompassing glare. The mound that had been Nogaral shrugged then slumped into its contradiction. It was as if a dome of cloth had been pressed into a dimple. Summit became basin. Illumination became shadow. The mountain had been rotten with Viri, its innumerable ways fractured by the cataclysmic impact of the Ark thousands of years before. The underworld mansion imploded, collapsed inward and downward, tier upon tier, hall upon hall, undone by this final indignity. This last outrage.

The Man and the Inchoroi toppled with it. Though suspended, they remained bound to the earth, and as with all drastic changes of circumstance, the meaning of their sorcery ceased to be. Only Aurang’s wings saved them. The Inchoroi seized the Man from kicking emptiness, bore him up beyond the Diurnal blue into the truth that was cold and night.

They set foot upon the depression’s edge. The Day Lantern painted a dishevelled landscape, drawing their shadows into the darkness of the great concavity below. The earth still shivered, resounded with hidden percussions, knocking dust into smoky halos about the debris.

Shaeönanra laughed in the crazed, marvelling way of children who find their destruction multiplied beyond belief. Once again, he succumbed to the sacrilege of Fate, he who walked ways invisible to the Gods. He exulted at this Sign, rejoiced that his hated foe would have a pit and not a barrow to memorialize his fall. And as the echos trailed into cavernous thunder, he began singing, as a true Long-boned Son of Umerau should,
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: What Came Before on May 07, 2013, 01:51:03 am
Quote from: Callan S.
I was thinking before if Earwa is round, then the center of the universe is at it's core. Perhaps that's where the well led to? And maybe that and sending debris down into it has something to do with...

Quote
He hears it, a faraway wind, the groan of impossible multitudes–the collective shriek. His lungs become as stone. Horror makes pins of his skin. And he feels it, the burning vaults above, the smoldering glimpses...
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: What Came Before on May 07, 2013, 01:51:09 am
Quote from: lockesnow
posted this at westeros, but wanted to snark here too.

The Math-Thesis Point?

Really?
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: What Came Before on May 07, 2013, 01:51:14 am
Quote from: Madness
I Lol'd.
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: What Came Before on May 07, 2013, 01:51:20 am
Quote from: lockesnow
Quote from: Madness
I Lol'd.
mainly I'm kicking myself for missing the "point" until now!
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: What Came Before on May 07, 2013, 01:51:25 am
Quote from: Twooars
I vaguely remember that someone discussing this... Is the Onkhis mentioned (twice) in The False Sun, the same as the Onkis that Inrau prays to, in TDTCB? If so, what is the significance? There might be some link between Onkis and Nonmen too, according to the PON wiki...

And tangentially, do we know if any of the Hundred Gods has an earlier or later origin than the others?

And Lockesnow, I didn't get the Mathesis connection until you pointed it out!
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: What Came Before on May 07, 2013, 01:51:30 am
Quote from: Madness
Tangentially, we do not.

The Onkhis and Onkis are one and the same in my mind. The significance, I think, is mundane, that Shaeonanra comes from a culture with pervasive Kiunnat belief, which Inri Sejenus amends into Inrithism - still reflecting belief in the same Gods but as aspects of the God.

Its like the Greeks calling a storm Zeus and rough seas Poseidon, it reflects a culture's, and an individual's, explanatory style, how they make sense of the world.

But, I agree, Twooars, something seems strange. Why, if the IF cleanses the cognitive palate so, would Shaeonanra's explanatory style still reflect a belief in the Gods? To the point, that they move him still?
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: What Came Before on May 07, 2013, 01:51:35 am
Quote from: Wilshire
The darkness always moves us Madness.
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: What Came Before on May 07, 2013, 01:51:45 am
Quote from: Madness
True ;). Still curious.
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: What Came Before on May 07, 2013, 01:51:48 am
Quote from: Duskweaver
I'm going to be that annoying nitpicky guy again and suggest that Psyche and Eros are better examples of your point than Zeus and Poseidon, Madness.

I think it's hard for us to look down on Shae for using a god's name to describe part of his own unconscious mind, when we modern and enlightened humans use the names of gods we haven't even believed in for 2000 years for the exact same purpose. :D

Incidentally (and probably quite irrelevantly), Psyche was sometimes portrayed on Greek vases as looking exactly like a Synthese (probably from Egyptian influence).
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: What Came Before on May 07, 2013, 01:51:54 am
Quote from: Madness
I certainly have an explanatory style but it doesn't reflect Onkis, or any other God, moving me.

You'll have to enlighten me on the Psyche and Eros references beyond Plato or myths of Cupid and Psyche - though, you clearly got my communication by the conception.

+1 for imagery. Neat irrelevancy.
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: What Came Before on May 07, 2013, 01:51:59 am
Quote from: Duskweaver
Quote from: Madness
I certainly have an explanatory style but it doesn't reflect Onkis, or any other God, moving me.
I'm not really sure what you mean here.

Quote
You'll have to enlighten me on the Psyche and Eros references beyond Plato or myths of Cupid and Psyche
Again, I'm not sure what enlightenment you're looking for. 21st century humans use the word 'psyche' to refer to our own mental structure, and the word 'erotic' to refer to things we consider sexy. That does not imply we still worship those two gods, or even that we consider them gods any more. Likewise, Shae's use of the word 'onkhis' doesn't necessarily imply that he still feels that goddess is moving his soul, merely that 'onkhis' is the word, in his language, for that part of the mind where thoughts arise.

You could actually replace the word 'onkhis' in The False Sun with 'his psyche', and it wouldn't significantly change the meaning.
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: What Came Before on May 07, 2013, 01:52:08 am
Quote from: Garet Jax
Quote from: Duskweaver
You could actually replace the word 'onkhis' in The False Sun with 'his psyche', and it wouldn't significantly change the meaning.

Mind blown.  Thank you!  I think this revelation sheds some light on what has been frustrating me about the interactions between certain characters.  More to follow after some research. 

At this rate, I am going to be looking for the proverbial needle in the haystack on my favorite topics instead of doing my re read.
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: What Came Before on May 07, 2013, 01:52:27 am
Quote from: lockesnow
love the onkhis psyche connection

---

Anyone else ever note that in the story in which we first hear about THE INVERSE FIRE, that story is titled THE FALSE SUN

Seems like there's an apparent and ripe association there.  Yes it is probably referring to Titirga's stuff, but it could very well be referring to the main idea of the text, which is Shae's obsession with damnation that was triggered by the inverse fire.  Perhaps Shae operates under the light of a false sun?
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: What Came Before on May 07, 2013, 01:52:33 am
Quote from: Wilshire
Or perhaps the false sun is more direcly connected to the inverse fire. Maybe a better name for the IF would be the FALSE fire?
The Inverse Fire is a lie! (the Inchoroi's version of cake)
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: What Came Before on May 07, 2013, 01:52:39 am
Quote from: Madness
+1 all y'all. I concur.

Duskweaver, we're making sense but I don't think we're being mutually topical.

Quote from: Duskweaver
Quote from: Madness
I certainly have an explanatory style but it doesn't reflect Onkis, or any other God, moving me.

I'm not really sure what you mean here.

I hazard that you know what an explanatory style is but for brevity it reflects how we internalize events, usually circumstances involving ourselves and negative consequences. Generally, it is used to describe our foremost conscious interaction with our individual perceptual realities, how we explain that interaction to our selves - without reflecting on the big questions of blind brains or the hard and binding problem.

I might use something as foreign from psyche as Christians when God moves them.

Quote from: Duskweaver
Likewise, Shae's use of the word 'onkhis' doesn't necessarily imply that he still feels that goddess is moving his soul, merely that 'onkhis' is the word, in his language, for that part of the mind where thoughts arise.

You could actually replace the word 'onkhis' in The False Sun with 'his psyche', and it wouldn't significantly change the meaning.

As I wrote, I figure you understood the conception of what I tried to communicate with Zeus and Poseidon. I offered those examples instead of those more anachronistic so as to jar our contemporary perspectives. What the narratives of Homer (or the Homeric Poets) suggest is that humans in the past explained their volition, in part, in terms of Gods, or Onkis - in fact, thinking back to my Ancient Greek Philosophy or the belief schema I've studied in my life, I actually think that there are cultures with Gods similar to Her within our own historical narrative, if the Greeks didn't have one themselves.

I feel like you understood all this?

Following from that, I don't think that you can make the separation for Shaeonanra. Perhaps, Shauriatas, though we've not had exposure to him except from the Nau-Cayuti in the Ark Dream of the Ch. 1 - 2000 years ago itself.

It doesn't significantly change the meaning for us... but to Shaeonanra in Earwa?. Could it not reflect the fact that Shaeonanra understands he is trapped in all the chains binding man to the Gods until such a point he can close the world from the Outside?

If he is making the distinction you suggest is there good reason he doesn't simply use a Nonman or Inchoroi word, something linguistically exotic - like Sorcerers using a foreign tongue to frame novel semantic structures. It's even likely that one of those species have words with more concise meanings for "onkis" or "his psyche?" (I think we may be well off the reserve as to Bakker's Intentions here, though estimating the man is impossible :). Though, I'd guess that the Dunyain have names for the parts of the brain that exhibit external behaviors with Neuropuncture - if only, Horror Base 2, Motion Sequence 7, etc.)

Quote from: Duskweaver
Again, I'm not sure what enlightenment you're looking for. 21st century humans use the word 'psyche' to refer to our own mental structure, and the word 'erotic' to refer to things we consider sexy. That does not imply we still worship those two gods, or even that we consider them gods any more.

Any novel understanding really. I concur but if we're exploring Bakker's fiction then this should be about the perception of antiquated humans. Though, obviously, the author is using the trope of ancient man to anachronistically communicate to a contemporary reader ;). Lol.

I offer you some "enlightenment" - I use it mostly in the mundane sense, though I'd hardly call my experience of novelty mundane so far as "I" go. I've grown into a person who doesn't ascribe metaphysical explanations to events in life, as I'd rather just cultivate my appreciation of being whatever it is to be human and figuring that out in a mundane sense. Why can't all the amazing, unique human pillars in history just be human first, before they're Divine, or Alien? So the title of the zine has to be framed in jest on my part, not advocacy of the overarching themes. Cheers. But it featured heavily in my connotations when you suggested Eros and Psyche.

Eros and Agape, Agency and Communion (http://www.enlightennext.org/magazine/j41/guru-pandit.asp?page=2)

By the way, in one of the renditions of that myth I found, when Eros falls in love with the human Psyche, he refuses to play cupid and there is no new life until he resumes his duties for Venus.
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: What Came Before on May 07, 2013, 01:52:46 am
Quote from: Duskweaver
Quote from: Madness
I don't think we're being mutually topical.
That was the impression I was getting, hence my confuzzledness.

Quote
I might use something as foreign from psyche as Christians when God moves them.
Well, OK. I don't personally tend to use the word 'psyche' much myself in a personal context. But it would not seem strange at all (to me) for a character in a story who is supposed to be a secular-minded 21st century Englishman (for example) to use the term 'psyche' in that way. It reflects certain aspects of cultural baggage, yes, but is not at all incompatible with him flatly rejecting ancient Greek religion (or metaphysics generally) as an explanation for his own thought patterns. Reading about such a character using 'psyche' in that way would lead me to think of that character as somewhat poetically or romantically inclined rather than pious, if that makes sense?

Quote
I feel like you understood all this?
I didn't think we were disagreeing in principle. But you seemed to be making more of something that seemed to me to be just colourful set-dressing. Shae's use of Onkis' name suggests cultural baggage to me more than some deep insight into how he, personally, thinks (although, bearing in mind who wrote it, I'm starting to reconsider that). It may even be intended as consciously ironic (like the fiercely atheist/materialist Anton LaVey co-opting Christian imagery and spiritualist trappings).

Quote
Following from that, I don't think that you can make the separation for Shaeonanra. Perhaps, Shauriatas, though we've not had exposure to him except from the Nau-Cayuti in the Ark Dream of the Ch. 1 - 2000 years ago itself.
I think the separation would have to be ongoing thing. So, yeah, maybe at the time of The False Sun, he's still basically seeing the world as his countrymen do.

Going back to your original comment:
Quote
Why, if the IF cleanses the cognitive palate so, would Shaeonanra's explanatory style still reflect a belief in the Gods? To the point, that they move him still?
My tentative opinion is that the IF doesn't "cleanse the cognitive palate". I don't see the IF as some sort of brainwashing device. The psychological effect it has is essentially mundane, IMO. It doesn't magically force you to turn into a sadistic, genocidal loon, it just gives you information whose logical implications are such that genocide might seem like an appropriate response. I'm pretty sure if I received irrefutable proof of my own eternal damnation, I'd be willing to do literally anything to escape it. It wouldn't require my brain to be rewired, nor would it cause me to change my underlying psychological makeup. I can't see any reason why my explanatory style would necessarily change overnight.

Quote
Could it not reflect the fact that Shaeonanra understands he is trapped in all the chains binding man to the Gods until such a point he can close the world from the Outside?
It could, yes. That's certainly one interpretation. You could even argue that the "cultural baggage" I mentioned is one such chain.

Quote
If he is making the distinction you suggest is there good reason he doesn't simply use a Nonman or Inchoroi word, something linguistically exotic
Tongue firmly in cheek, maybe that's the significance of the extra letter 'h'? :P

No, I'm starting to think you're right. If Bakker intended the use of 'Onkhis' to be purely cultural baggage / set dressing / telling us about the Ancient Norsirai rather than about Shaeonanra himself, surely Shae himself would have commented on that in his internal monologue? Demonstrating some irritation at the limitations of his own language to properly express what he's actually thinking about how he thinks, for example? But he doesn't seem to question it at all.

Quote
Why can't all the amazing, unique human pillars in history just be human first, before they're Divine, or Alien?
Well, I'd agree with this. To me, the Divine comes after and is itself a human gloss (by which I mean any and all of the following: "a post-hoc explanation"; "an enhancing addition"; "a superficial and deceptive appearance" ;) ).

Quote
Eros and Agape, Agency and Communion (http://www.enlightennext.org/magazine/j41/guru-pandit.asp?page=2)
Thanks. I'll give it a read.

Looking back, this post may well be completely incoherent. I've been typing it a tiny bit at a time all morning, in amongst trying to work out what's wrong with my blasted central heating boiler... :evil:
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: What Came Before on May 07, 2013, 01:52:55 am
Quote from: Madness
No, no... Yeah, yeah... No, no... [In Jest].

+1 Duskweaver. Not incoherent by any measure.

While I realize you might not completely agree with the initial parts of your post...

Quote from: Duskweaver
Reading about such a character using 'psyche' in that way would lead me to think of that character as somewhat poetically or romantically inclined rather than pious, if that makes sense?

Absolutely concise. But... Bakker ;)? As I wrote, and you've acknowledged, Bakker makes the damn difference (pun... intended). He tries to be pretty conscious of what he's writing. Benjuka is figuring out his connotations - hense, Second Apocalypse. Sweet, sweet, nurturing ambiguity.

Quote from: Duskweaver
It may even be intended as consciously ironic (like the fiercely atheist/materialist Anton LaVey co-opting Christian imagery and spiritualist trappings).

May be. +1 for thoughts.

Quote from: Duskweaver
My tentative opinion is that the IF doesn't "cleanse the cognitive palate". I don't see the IF as some sort of brainwashing device. The psychological effect it has is essentially mundane, IMO

See, this was my opinion as well, at the start, but I tend to take many of my social cues from people around me (I've done some damage to any ability to relate socially - even moreso as of the Mayan Apokalypsis, fuck New Years Resolutions ;)). Consensus seems to be that no one would revert to such behaviour without some material change...

Quote from: Duskweaver
It could, yes. That's certainly one interpretation. You could even argue that the "cultural baggage" I mentioned is one such chain.

+1.

Quote from: Duskweaver
Tongue firmly in cheek, maybe that's the significance of the extra letter 'h'? :P

No, I'm starting to think you're right. If Bakker intended the use of 'Onkhis' to be purely cultural baggage / set dressing / telling us about the Ancient Norsirai rather than about Shaeonanra himself, surely Shae himself would have commented on that in his internal monologue? Demonstrating some irritation at the limitations of his own language to properly express what he's actually thinking about how he thinks, for example? But he doesn't seem to question it at all.

Lmao. This is part of the Madness I try and stop everyday, Duskweaver. Madness grew out of a saying I had for social situations (like talking past each other ;)) that are inherently ridiculous for their miscommunications. Stop the Madness :D... Huge Lol humanity, as much as I've dedicated my life to changing you.

What does Bakker see :@!!!

Quote from: Duskweaver
Well, I'd agree with this. To me, the Divine comes after and is itself a human gloss (by which I mean any and all of the following: "a post-hoc explanation"; "an enhancing addition"; "a superficial and deceptive appearance" ;) ).

+1 :(. Yay for Jesus, Mohammed, Buddha, Confucius, and the Vedic Authors... +1 for all the cultures with honourable mentions (which is all cultures, with some kind of belief system - all cultures, always interpretive of reality). Learn me good.

Lol. I wish I had more practical knowledge... I'm all about embodied cognition so my body is fast becoming subject to my tinkering.

Cheers.
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: Wilshire on May 07, 2013, 02:21:36 am
Quote
"Who are you to condemn?” Shaeönanra cried in the mock way of too-learned Men. “The Schools have no stake in Nonman wars.” 

This much was true. The Siqu were loathe to speak of the War–even Cet’ingira, who had led the Mangaecca to the Ark and the revelation of the Xir’kirimakra. Their feud with the Inchoroi was theirs and theirs alone, so much so they denied their Mannish pupils all but the most elliptical knowledge of it. 

But Titirga frowned as if at a tiresome juvenile. “Who are you to decide our stake?"

Then later:
Quote
A flush of horror. Shaeönanra tensed against the sudden loosening in his bowel, not quite believing that the Inchoroi had dared name it aloud. Xir’kirimakra. The Inverse Fire.

So I guess I didn't fully understand this before, but Xir’kirimakra is another name for the Inverse Fire. Cet'ingira was one of the Three, the name given to the 3 nonmen who entered the ark and stumbled upon the IF. The other two where presumably killed for being mad, but what of Cet'ingira? He told Nil'Giccas to kill the others, but for what purpose? To hide the truth of the IF revelations?

But then why was he the one trying to destroy the Barricades? Why lead the Mangaecca to the IF if he was trying to suppress its nature before?

I'm confused. Anyone want to offer some relief to my ignorance?
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: locke on May 08, 2013, 09:22:19 pm
Quote from: Wilshire
Or perhaps the false sun is more direcly connected to the inverse fire. Maybe a better name for the IF would be the FALSE fire?
The Inverse Fire is a lie! (the Inchoroi's version of cake)

They Called us FALSE!

of course Nil'Giccis is referring to the humans, eh?  Couldn't possibly be referring to the Inchoroi...
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: Wilshire on May 08, 2013, 11:04:40 pm
Never thought of that. Now that you mention it, probably likely. Hard to say who the hell he is referring to when he uses pronouns, and reader bias would lead us to fill in the gap with the obvious choice  of humans rather than considering the erratic's though patterns and considering other possibilities.
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: Cüréthañ on May 08, 2013, 11:22:14 pm
But then why was he the one trying to destroy the Barricades? Why lead the Mangaecca to the IF if he was trying to suppress its nature before?

He's Erratic.  Staring at the Inverse Fire would be the crack cocaine of trauma.
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: What Came Before on May 09, 2013, 03:10:16 pm
So I guess I didn't fully understand this before, but Xir’kirimakra is another name for the Inverse Fire. Cet'ingira was one of the Three, the name given to the 3 nonmen who entered the ark and stumbled upon the IF. The other two where presumably killed for being mad, but what of Cet'ingira? He told Nil'Giccas to kill the others, but for what purpose? To hide the truth of the IF revelations?

The way I see it is that Ishroi, unlike Quya, can be Absolved, Redeemed, whatever, whereas Quya, sorcerers, are simply Damned. Cet'ingira eliminated the opposing narrative before it had a chance to flourish - Damnation just sucks, which underscores that concise fact that not all are Damned.

But that was just my interpretation.
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: Wilshire on May 09, 2013, 05:08:53 pm
So then he leads the Mengeca there because he know they will see the same damnation he saw himself. They can be trusted to fall in line with his thinking, but other Ishroi/human/non-schoolmen may risk coming to some other conclusion, which may lead to some unified group of anti-magi thing... something like that.
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: What Came Before on May 09, 2013, 05:10:18 pm
Indeed. Some Nonmen version of things Scholastic as it so happened, maybe...
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: Cüréthañ on May 11, 2013, 08:11:53 am
That's a terribly logical veiw for an erratic.

I found the synthesis of the POV in 'four revelations' and Cleric/NG's arc in AE strongly shows that Erratic's are not the non-men they used to be. 

Their ancient personalities only assert themselves in response to trauma (or Mimara's manipulations).  CJ is lost in memories, completely disconnected from reality much of the time - some variant erratic is driving him around the Nansur borderlands in the meanwhile.  Akka never understands that about Cleric, he keeps appealing to someone that isn't there.

The clearly possess memories of things whilst they are erratic; they are trying to remember who they are - not the totality of their lives or some intricate plan to escape damnation.

The Erratic's just do whatever it takes to put themselves in those traumatic situations.  E.g. In Cil'Aujis, NG comes to the fore and recalls the hundreds of years he has spent there hunting Sranc (and hanging out near the topos).

Getting into the arc wasn't any sort of masterplan to find the brothers and convert the Mangacea, imho, just an erratic trying to remember...
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: Wilshire on May 11, 2013, 01:08:38 pm
Unless he isn't Erratic. He could be our first glimpse of the Intact. Maybe all of the sane Nonmen, those who really can remember, have been preserved with some kind of manipulation of the Tekne, and all of them are fully under the Inchoroi "control". But by control, I mean willing servants converted to their side via the IF and then psycho-modified to hold the millennium of extra memories.

After all, it was Kellhus that taught us that the most fanatic of his followers often came from the doubters, not the believers. In the end, everyone is a believer, a follower, they just need to be shown.

Really, what are the odds that there is a happy group of old Nonmen sitting around a table, smoking pipes and joking about the old days? Nah, this is Bakker. The Intact will be the very worst, and they will be the enemy.
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: MG on March 12, 2014, 04:58:49 pm
Gotta say that I love Titirga, but I think he was probably a one story character.  I can't see Bakker's editor letting him include Titirga in TUC without more foreshadowing withing TSA.  The editor would point out that there's no guarantee that the average series reader is also 3lbbrain fan?  Would be cool to see him in more Atrocity tales.
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: Madness on March 12, 2014, 07:38:52 pm
Unless he isn't Erratic. He could be our first glimpse of the Intact. Maybe all of the sane Nonmen, those who really can remember, have been preserved with some kind of manipulation of the Tekne, and all of them are fully under the Inchoroi "control". But by control, I mean willing servants converted to their side via the IF and then psycho-modified to hold the millennium of extra memories.

After all, it was Kellhus that taught us that the most fanatic of his followers often came from the doubters, not the believers. In the end, everyone is a believer, a follower, they just need to be shown.

I like your crazy.

Gotta say that I love Titirga, but I think he was probably a one story character.  I can't see Bakker's editor letting him include Titirga in TUC without more foreshadowing withing TSA.  The editor would point out that there's no guarantee that the average series reader is also 3lbbrain fan?  Would be cool to see him in more Atrocity tales.

You don't think there will be new, yet unheard-of characters in TUC, MG?
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: MG on March 12, 2014, 09:51:46 pm
I'm betting on only minor characters.  In the False Sun, I got the impression that all of Titirga's coolness was to characterize him quick and cheap.
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: MG on April 15, 2014, 10:06:21 pm
Wondering if someone gave the Inchoroi the Inverse Fire to derail them.  Like they were bent on some completely other goal, like killing the gods or something, and were getting close, so the gods gave the IF to make the Inchoroi spend all their time/effort fleeing damnation.  Like a Tower of Babel thing.  If the IF did come from the gods, maybe Kellhus or Moe figured that out?
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: Wilshire on April 25, 2014, 05:25:37 pm
I want a POV of a Dunyain stairing into the IF.
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: Madness on April 27, 2014, 01:49:23 pm
It's funny - would this be any different than a Dunyain looking into the Outside through Daimos?
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: MG on April 27, 2014, 02:10:58 pm
Madness, until you said that, I didn't think much about the distinction.  I'm thinking that opening a window with the Daimos allows one to see a portion of a populated space of the Outside, so you see Ciphrang and the spaces between.

The Inverse Fire might not even be a window on the Outside since it's main function seems to be to convince the viewer that they are damned.  It's like a really fucked up mirror!  If the IF and the JE are supposed to corroborate each other, then the IF may be nothing more than a tekne construction that allows you to see yourself with the JE, like it's got a mini cam perched on top of a something that contains the fire?
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: Madness on April 28, 2014, 12:50:44 pm
I must know the distinctions!
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: Cüréthañ on June 06, 2014, 09:44:21 pm
What is with this part:

Quote
“They speak of you often in Umerau and Sauglish,” Titirga said, his manner sinister for being so bland. “They say you have the eyes of a serpent…”

Shaeönanra smiled. Vanity had been a well-known flaw of his, yes. He had preened in the days before…

“No. Just a dog. No different than other Men.”

Does the 'eyes of a serpent' mean vanity?  Or is it merely something to aspire to?  Considering that in PoN the Cish use serpents for eyes and that serpents are considered holy, is there a relation?
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: Somnambulist on June 06, 2014, 10:11:53 pm
What is with this part:

Quote
“They speak of you often in Umerau and Sauglish,” Titirga said, his manner sinister for being so bland. “They say you have the eyes of a serpent…”

Shaeönanra smiled. Vanity had been a well-known flaw of his, yes. He had preened in the days before…

“No. Just a dog. No different than other Men.”

Does the 'eyes of a serpent' mean vanity?  Or is it merely something to aspire to?  Considering that in PoN the Cish use serpents for eyes and that serpents are considered holy, is there a relation?

I've wondered about this, too.  It's probably just a metaphor, but I want it to be Psukhe-related.  Badly.
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: Cüréthañ on June 07, 2014, 10:11:37 am
Perhaps the reference is more towards some kind of dangerous regard - the unblinking stare of a defensive snake can be unnerving, I think.
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: Wilshire on June 07, 2014, 09:48:22 pm
Perhaps the reference is more towards some kind of dangerous regard - the unblinking stare of a defensive snake can be unnerving, I think.
This make sense to me, though I don't know if that translates to vanity, though what some groups aspire to can be rather alien (no pun intended).
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: MG on July 01, 2014, 03:41:13 am
What is with this part:

Quote
“They speak of you often in Umerau and Sauglish,” Titirga said, his manner sinister for being so bland. “They say you have the eyes of a serpent…”

Shaeönanra smiled. Vanity had been a well-known flaw of his, yes. He had preened in the days before…

“No. Just a dog. No different than other Men.”

Does the 'eyes of a serpent' mean vanity?  Or is it merely something to aspire to?  Considering that in PoN the Cish use serpents for eyes and that serpents are considered holy, is there a relation?

Now that you mention it, I wonder if the gods' perspective could be described as "eyes of a serpent" as in cold, hungry, and reptilian?
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: Aural on July 28, 2014, 02:48:59 am
Quote
So he stood waiting before the gate of his cyclopean tower, Nogaral, staring southward across the heaving leagues of the Neleöst Sea, knowing that soon–very soon–a light would stride across the moonlit waters.

Looking at the map of Earwa the city of Tryse, is to the south of the Neleost. So how could he stare southward across the Neleost? ???

Edit: Nevermind. Doesn't look like he's in Tryse.
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: The Sharmat on September 03, 2014, 04:38:28 am
I very much doubt the Inverse Fire is some kind of illusion or mind control device, since some Inchoroi must have invented it at some point, and they wouldn't want to use such a thing on themself. I imagine the Inchoroi culture, prior to the discovery of the Inverse Fire and damnation, was extremely nihilistic and hedonistic. I greatly doubt they believed in any Gods at all, or any morality that we would understand. Why would a member of a culture like that build a machine that forced the idea of damnation upon them?

I personally suspect they came across the invention of the inverse fire, the discovery of an afterlife, and the knowledge that there was objective morality and damnation, entirely by accident, in the course of other scientific inquiry. Naturally, the discovery and its irrefutability shocked and transformed their entire culture. Enough that they took their entire species to the stars to seek out the source of their damnation, and destroy it.
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: MG on September 05, 2014, 06:37:14 pm
Quote
Why would a member of a culture like that build a machine that forced the idea of damnation upon them?

This is what I'm thinking is possible:

http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=2244#comic

In 2150 humanity discovers, definitively, the universe is an empty purposeless place.  To overcome the anxiety, some create an overwhelming lust modification and an attendant intelligence to sate it myriad ways.  When this fails to conquer the anxiety, they invent the Outside and the IF to give purpose to their lives, any purpose, so long as it blinds them to the truth.
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: locke on September 05, 2014, 07:10:42 pm
I very much doubt the Inverse Fire is some kind of illusion or mind control device, since some Inchoroi must have invented it at some point, and they wouldn't want to use such a thing on themself. I imagine the Inchoroi culture, prior to the discovery of the Inverse Fire and damnation, was extremely nihilistic and hedonistic. I greatly doubt they believed in any Gods at all, or any morality that we would understand. Why would a member of a culture like that build a machine that forced the idea of damnation upon them?

I personally suspect they came across the invention of the inverse fire, the discovery of an afterlife, and the knowledge that there was objective morality and damnation, entirely by accident, in the course of other scientific inquiry. Naturally, the discovery and its irrefutability shocked and transformed their entire culture. Enough that they took their entire species to the stars to seek out the source of their damnation, and destroy it.
Clearly they didn't invent it, rather inverse prometheus stole the inverse fire from the inverse gods

All typ0s courtesy of Samsung.

Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: MG on September 05, 2014, 08:31:47 pm
Lol!  Inverse Icarus' dad: if you fly to far down, son, your wings will fail you and you will fall up.  And you'll be damned.
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: locke on September 05, 2014, 08:48:28 pm
The key to flying is to aim at the ground and miss.

All typ0s courtesy of Samsung.

Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: Cüréthañ on September 06, 2014, 11:55:47 am
One theory I'm kinda toying with is that they used the Tekne to remove the atomic structure that overlays whatever comprises the basic matter of the Earwaverse and ended up with a hole that lets you see out of the universe. 

Perhaps they were trying to find a power source or something.
That's how many major practical scientific discoveries happen in our world (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role_of_chance_in_scientific_discoveries). 
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: Francis Buck on September 07, 2014, 10:48:49 pm
I very much doubt the Inverse Fire is some kind of illusion or mind control device, since some Inchoroi must have invented it at some point, and they wouldn't want to use such a thing on themself. I imagine the Inchoroi culture, prior to the discovery of the Inverse Fire and damnation, was extremely nihilistic and hedonistic. I greatly doubt they believed in any Gods at all, or any morality that we would understand. Why would a member of a culture like that build a machine that forced the idea of damnation upon them?

I personally suspect they came across the invention of the inverse fire, the discovery of an afterlife, and the knowledge that there was objective morality and damnation, entirely by accident, in the course of other scientific inquiry. Naturally, the discovery and its irrefutability shocked and transformed their entire culture. Enough that they took their entire species to the stars to seek out the source of their damnation, and destroy it.

This is precisely what I think, although I will add that I think the IF later did kinda/sorta become a propaganda device of sorts. For example, I think the Inchoroi really did decide that it made more sense to turn the peoples of Earwa to their side, rather than try to destroy them, especially when they realized that the Nonmen were also damned. Knowing that the IF would show the truth of one's damnation to anyone that was, well, actually damned, they had no issue showing it to the Nonmen. Men were a different story however. It's not a coincidence that the only Men ever shown the IF were sorcerers -- it was a very deliberate plan. After all, if they were to show the IF to any old human, there's a chance they might actually see their own Redemption within it, which could cause some major PR issues for the Consult's recruitment plans. Thus, the Inchoroi (and later the Consult in general) really did use the IF has a method of spreading propaganda, in a weird way, but nonetheless the IF was still legitimate.

One theory I'm kinda toying with is that they used the Tekne to remove the atomic structure that overlays whatever comprises the basic matter of the Earwaverse and ended up with a hole that lets you see out of the universe. 

Perhaps they were trying to find a power source or something.
That's how many major practical scientific discoveries happen in our world (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role_of_chance_in_scientific_discoveries). 

I agree with this as well. I think the Inchoroi were just going on with their daily lives (I don't even want to know what that was like), and some scientists just kept digging into the sub-atomic particles of reality with the Tekne until eventually they broke through. We actually see Shaeonanra kind of explaining this.
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: The Sharmat on September 08, 2014, 12:59:40 am
Yeah that makes sense. As we see from Shaeonanra's point of view, the sight of your own damnation is about as powerful a motivator as can be summoned.
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: Cüréthañ on September 09, 2014, 09:16:46 am
If it is a power source, it could also be the engine of the arc, now rerouted to their synthese labs, Shae's life-support pit and the golden room etc.
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: MG on September 24, 2014, 06:37:46 pm
If it is a power source, it could also be the engine of the arc, now rerouted to their synthese labs, Shae's life-support pit and the golden room etc.


christmas lights
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: Simas Polchias on February 28, 2015, 01:33:35 am
Quote from: Wilshire
Or perhaps the false sun is more direcly connected to the inverse fire. Maybe a better name for the IF would be the FALSE fire? The Inverse Fire is a lie! (the Inchoroi's version of cake)
A false fire. Sounds like a falschfeuer in german whis is a flare in english. 

A flare, also sometimes called a fusee, is a type of pyrotechnic that produces a brilliant light or intense heat without an explosion.

Literally, that is a safe device to fight a darkness. Is this the same darkness that came before? Also, consider another option.

A special variety of flare is used in military aircraft as a defensive countermeasure against heat-seeking missiles.

As long as there are Marks and ciphrangs hunting you in the Outside, IF could be an unsuccessfull or semi-successfull distraction device. How can one conseal his damned soul, especially marked one? But, by clouding it with thousands of false copies.

After a while, these two options seem to me like two faces of the same coin. Cloaking your soul in your multiplied damnation? Feels like a close and ruthless acquaintance with all desicions and deeds you have ever made without any possibility to forget or to misrepresent. So, that's a way to fight the darkness that came before, even if the indirect one.
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: H on March 12, 2015, 03:07:26 pm
I posted this on the ASoIaF board, but then thought it'd probably be good here too:

I decided to reread The False Sun this morning. It's been a while and I was bored at work, plus I forgot my eBooks of the rest of the series.

We've discussed what the Inverse Fire is numerous times and with such scant information, we have naturally not figured out much about it's nature. My personal feelings are that it is called such because we often presume hell (or Hell) to be a fiery place, yet the reality the damned face in the Outside is actually it's opposite. Fire would be hot, burning, consuming. Damnation in the outside is the opposite, cold, freezing, preserving. Where fire would devour and extinguish, the coldness of damnation is is endless.

That crack-pottery isn't what struck me in the story though, it was the exchange between Shae and Titirga. Is it just me, but I actually believe that everything Shae (and Aurang) is actually true. What they see really is their damnation. I don't fee like the Inverse Fire is a device made to control, it is simply something of a window that reveals what I would term "dread knowledge."

The idea of such a thing is knowledge that does not enwisen, but rather fosters something of a guttural fear response. Indeed, what Shae and the Consult choose to do is actually rather logical, however, it is motivated by the basest and most primitive of thoughts and feelings, pleasure and self-preservation. Nothing is inherently wrong with either, but when they are exacted as pleasure for it's own sake and self-preservation at any cost that is an issue.

Titirga offers them the alternative: oblivion. The Consult rejects this though, because that base need of self-preservation, so closely linked to fear, drives them to try to achieve "salvation" at any cost.

I don't know if that makes any real sense to anyone but me, but I figured I'd just lob it out there...
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: Wilshire on March 12, 2015, 03:30:48 pm
Welcome to the board  H. I'm glad you made it through our rudimentary spam filter with your nondescript name :P(hand screening all the 100's of daily registrations for actual users among the bots).

My personal feelings are that it is called such because we often presume hell (or Hell) to be a fiery place, yet the reality the damned face in the Outside is actually it's opposite. Fire would be hot, burning, consuming. Damnation in the outside is the opposite, cold, freezing, preserving. Where fire would devour and extinguish, the coldness of damnation is is endless.
The play of Fire is probably close to the mark, regardless of what actually occurs in that hell. An anchor for the reader.
The analogy for cold works, though cold if often associated with numbness, and peace/quiet, while for me fire is more easily associated with suffering and screaming agony. I can't imagine a more horrific way to spend eternity, endlessly burning in a fire...

I also think you might be combining 'The Void' and "The Outside'. The Void is presumably a reference to space, while The Outside is the spiritual realm. There are many different kinds of 'Outsides', as many or more than the number of Gods, and I associate the oblivion/nothingness that the Nonmen/Titirga seek is someplace untouched by those entities, a place of nothing.


That crack-pottery isn't what struck me in the story though, it was the exchange between Shae and Titirga. Is it just me, but I actually believe that everything Shae (and Aurang) is actually true. What they see really is their damnation. I don't fee like the Inverse Fire is a device made to control, it is simply something of a window that reveals what I would term "dread knowledge.";
I think that Shae, and potentially Aurang, believe that what they say is true, and I'm not entirely sure that the difference is too important.

I believe that long ago the Inchoroi found some window into the Outside that showed them what they think was their inevitable afterlife if nothing was done to stop it. Dread knowledge is a great phrase for it, and it drove them to do what they have been doing ever since, looking for salvation. True or not, it can still easily be used as an easy way to gain supporters, regardless of whether or not it applies to the person/thing looking into it. After all, it could show many things, maybe just the nature of one of the "Outsides" created and maintained by one of the Gods. Or it could in fact show each user's actual fate, we just have no way of knowing.

The idea of such a thing is knowledge that does not enwisen, but rather fosters something of a guttural fear response.
Reminds me of Adam/Eve and the tree of knowledge.

Indeed, what Shae and the Consult choose to do is actually rather logical, however, it is motivated by the basest and most primitive of thoughts and feelings, pleasure and self-preservation. Nothing is inherently wrong with either, but when they are exacted as pleasure for it's own sake and self-preservation at any cost that is an issue.
I agree that its logical. If you knew that you would burn for eternity if you did nothing, it would likely be difficult to see the point of any sort of morality. For even just the chance to forestall and absolve an eternity of suffering, all things would be possible.

Titirga offers them the alternative: oblivion. The Consult rejects this though, because that base need of self-preservation, so closely linked to fear, drives them to try to achieve "salvation" at any cost.
The choice between nothing, and an eternity of peace, seems like a pretty easy one as well, especially if the 'oblivion' gambit if not a sure bet and you end up burning forever anyway.

I don't know if that makes any real sense to anyone but me, but I figured I'd just lob it out there...
Made perfect sense. I hope you lob some more this way if ever you forget your ebooks again ;).
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: H on March 12, 2015, 04:12:48 pm
Well, I've actually "been around" since the days of the Three-Seas board, just never post much.

The play of Fire is probably close to the mark, regardless of what actually occurs in that hell. An anchor for the reader.
The analogy for cold works, though cold if often associated with numbness, and peace/quiet, while for me fire is more easily associated with suffering and screaming agony. I can't imagine a more horrific way to spend eternity, endlessly burning in a fire...

I also think you might be combining 'The Void' and "The Outside'. The Void is presumably a reference to space, while The Outside is the spiritual realm. There are many different kinds of 'Outsides', as many or more than the number of Gods, and I associate the oblivion/nothingness that the Nonmen/Titirga seek is someplace untouched by those entities, a place of nothing.
I agree that the idea of the Void (space, as we call it) and the Outside (eh, I guess something like Heaven, Hell and Purgatory) are actually kind of mirrors (maybe?) of each other.  In the sense that the Void is the nothing outside the physical realm (ok, not actually nothing, but something very much like it, conceptually) and the Outside is the nothing outside the spiritual realm.  Planets (well, matter, so stars, etc.) are the breaks in the Void, the Gods seem to be the breaks in the Outside.  I guess that what leads me to conflagration the two together to put meaning to what Inverse Fire could mean.

Reminds me of Adam/Eve and the tree of knowledge.

Exactly, knowledge that really was not supposed to be known, as in, knowledge you can't handle knowning.

The choice between nothing, and an eternity of peace, seems like a pretty easy one as well, especially if the 'oblivion' gambit if not a sure bet and you end up burning forever anyway.

Well, there are seemingly three options when your soul passes to the Outside:
Salvation - you soul is coddled and accepted by a god.  Seems decent.
Oblivion - your soul just slips through a crack in the gods and is gone.  I don't know how that seems, kind of like a loss though.
Damnation - your soul sits between the gods, forever in purgatory and probably pain.  Seems pretty bad.
I think the Consult, in light of the Inverse Fire, know they can't gain salvation.  They are unsure if they can achieve oblivion (seems to take a worship system).  What seems provable to them is either accept damnation or go about sealing the world.  Not hard to see why they take that course really, considering.
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: SilentRoamer on March 12, 2015, 04:22:40 pm
Welcome H,

Think I seen you around as .H. on westeros?

I always thought the Consult seemed to mock the idea of "finding oblivion" as if they thought this was just a Nonman myth. Shae and Aurang definitely seemed to be mocking Titirgas understanding of damnation.
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: Wilshire on March 12, 2015, 04:30:48 pm
Well not all of you made it to here, so I stand by my previous welcoming :). Great profile picture btw, where did you get that from?

Actually, I didn't connect the mirror between Void and Outside, but I like that quite a bit.

I meant Salvation by closing the world from the gods and therefore forever escaping damnation, rather than some kind of redemptive steps to cleanse their souls. I was unclear.
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: H on March 12, 2015, 04:38:50 pm
Welcome H,

Think I seen you around as .H. on westeros?

I always thought the Consult seemed to mock the idea of "finding oblivion" as if they thought this was just a Nonman myth. Shae and Aurang definitely seemed to be mocking Titirgas understanding of damnation.
That's me, yeah, mostly a lurker there though too.

They seem to mock him, but they also seem to be pretty certain.  It seems that perhaps they can see in the Inverse Fire all the Nonmen who thought they were reaching oblivion actually aren't?

Well not all of you made it to here, so I stand by my previous welcoming :). Great profile picture btw, where did you get that from?

Actually, I didn't connect the mirror between Void and Outside, but I like that quite a bit.

I meant Salvation by closing the world from the gods and therefore forever escaping damnation, rather than some kind of redemptive steps to cleanse their souls. I was unclear.

I made the picture in Photoshop a long, long time ago, for the Three-Seas board, actually, haha.

I actually hadn't even thought of the mirroring of the Void and Outside until I started typing up my response, but it seemed to fit, so I went with it.

As for Salvation, I understood.  I was just being a bit more clear myself.  I'm not sure how this really fits in with Kellhus though.  My guess is that at some point he sees the Inverse Fire, then what?
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: Wilshire on March 12, 2015, 04:46:01 pm
I figured as much. At first I thought it was just a direct copy from TDTCB cover, but realized that the text doesn't surround the building thing. A coloration of the chapter headers then. Either way, very cool.

As for Kellhus, "then what" is pretty much as far as it goes. I think some common suggestions are: save everyone, save himself, become a god, seal the world from the gods, get everyone killed, join the consult, destroy the consult, steal/use/learn the Tekne,  become a self moving soul, or some combination of those things.
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: H on March 12, 2015, 05:05:48 pm
I figured as much. At first I thought it was just a direct copy from TDTCB cover, but realized that the text doesn't surround the building thing. A coloration of the chapter headers then. Either way, very cool.

Come to think of it, I think the colored version of the Temple came from the Three-Seas board itself.  Hard to remember, it was about 10 years ago...wow, that's a long time...

As for Kellhus, "then what" is pretty much as far as it goes. I think some common suggestions are: save everyone, save himself, become a god, seal the world from the gods, get everyone killed, join the consult, destroy the consult, steal/use/learn the Tekne,  become a self moving soul, or some combination of those things.
My  memory is a little foggy on this, but has anyone ever seen the Inverse Fire and not joined the Consult?  Did Seswatha actually see it?
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: Wilshire on March 12, 2015, 05:14:50 pm
Yeah one of the Nonmen explicitely said they saw it I thought, Nil'Giccas maybe, and didn't join.

Seswatha is speculated to have seen it, but no outright proof that he did.

But im clearly foggy as well. Other's know things more clearly than I, but are harder to find :P.

I figured as much. At first I thought it was just a direct copy from TDTCB cover, but realized that the text doesn't surround the building thing. A coloration of the chapter headers then. Either way, very cool.

Come to think of it, I think the colored version of the Temple came from the Three-Seas board itself.  Hard to remember, it was about 10 years ago...wow, that's a long time...
We call you folks Old Names for a reason.
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: H on March 12, 2015, 05:32:08 pm
Yeah one of the Nonmen explicitely said they saw it I thought, Nil'Giccas maybe, and didn't join.

Seswatha is speculated to have seen it, but no outright proof that he did.

But im clearly foggy as well. Other's know things more clearly than I, but are harder to find :P.

I'm not sure.  Nin’janjin saw it and he was the one who they first made immortal, thus strating the Womb-Plague.  Nil’giccas (Cleric) I don't recall having read that he had seen it.

I'm curious because we don't know how resistible what it shows is...

Perhaps it is something that actually alters the brain on a physiological level though, a la, something from Neuropath?

We call you folks Old Names for a reason.

Time flies when you are waiting for books I guess?  Haha
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: Wilshire on March 12, 2015, 06:06:38 pm
I shy away from the neuropath approach, probably because they were already masters of the mundane sciences. If its real, it has to be metaphysical/magical for them to have dropped everything to save themselves.

Maybe that Nil'giccas then, but I could have sworn we have a reference for someone who saw the IF and didn't join up with the Consult.
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: H on March 12, 2015, 07:53:56 pm
I shy away from the neuropath approach, probably because they were already masters of the mundane sciences. If its real, it has to be metaphysical/magical for them to have dropped everything to save themselves.

Maybe that Nil'giccas then, but I could have sworn we have a reference for someone who saw the IF and didn't join up with the Consult.

I can try to look some up when I am home later, but I'm really not sure.

If we consider that there is a way to resist the Inverse Fire (seems plausible), I'd guess that Kellhus would be the one able to do it.  Whether or not he wants to is another story though.
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: The Sharmat on March 12, 2015, 10:22:30 pm
I don't think Aurang and Shae rejected Titirga's alleged solution because it wasn't good enough. I think they rejected it because it doesn't work. They seem to believe that the "slip between the Gods and find Oblivion" thing is bullshit, and you're damned anyway. You can't slip through the cracks. You can't hide your voice. This is perhaps what so shocked the Nonmen that found the Inverse Fire in the Ark. Their out wasn't an out at all.

The Consult's strategy is attaining oblivion, I think. Through the No-God. When the No-God walks, and the world is reduced to 144,000, souls cannot pass successfully to the Outside. So they just die. No more. Gone.

Yeah, Aurang and co would prefer to just live forever. But over an infinite span of time, clinically immortal or not, your chances of dying somehow approach 100%. And only the Outside is apparently timeless and eternal, so even 100,000 years of hedonism isn't much of a trade for an eternity of torment.
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: MG on March 16, 2015, 12:07:24 am
I shy away from the neuropath approach, probably because they were already masters of the mundane sciences. If its real, it has to be metaphysical/magical for them to have dropped everything to save themselves.

Maybe that Nil'giccas then, but I could have sworn we have a reference for someone who saw the IF and didn't join up with the Consult.

i think it was Nil'giccas who ordered Mekeritrig and 2 others to go look at it and then report back?

@ H - that is neet-so looking into the IF basically swept away the nonman religion?  another thing to make them crazy!

where are your pictures!!! want to see!
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: H on March 16, 2015, 12:38:10 pm
I shy away from the neuropath approach, probably because they were already masters of the mundane sciences. If its real, it has to be metaphysical/magical for them to have dropped everything to save themselves.

Maybe that Nil'giccas then, but I could have sworn we have a reference for someone who saw the IF and didn't join up with the Consult.

i think it was Nil'giccas who ordered Mekeritrig and 2 others to go look at it and then report back?

@ H - that is neet-so looking into the IF basically swept away the nonman religion?  another thing to make them crazy!

where are your pictures!!! want to see!

I still can't find any references to if Seswatha saw the Inverse Fire or not.  Nor can I find if Nau-Cayûti actually saw it.

I think it was part of the plan that the Inverse Fire would drive the Nonmen to their side.

As for pictures, I'm not sure what you mean.
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: MG on March 16, 2015, 12:48:21 pm
lol, i was reading too fast and thought you said you photoshopped something Bakker something--but it was your avatar you were talking about!  sorry!

p.s. i don't think it says anywhere that Ses or NC did see the IF, it would just be hella-interesting

maybe the IF was how the Consult convinced Ieva to poison NC?
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: H on March 16, 2015, 01:13:21 pm
lol, i was reading too fast and thought you said you photoshopped something Bakker something--but it was your avatar you were talking about!  sorry!

p.s. i don't think it says anywhere that Ses or NC did see the IF, it would just be hella-interesting

maybe the IF was how the Consult convinced Ieva to poison NC?

Not a problem, I thought that was you were referring to, but wasn't sure.  I have zero actual artistic ability to create anything new.

I believe it was absolutely how they convinced Iëva, no doubt at all.  The question is, what had she done that the Fire showed her damned?
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: SilentRoamer on March 16, 2015, 01:19:03 pm
Either showed her the IF or promised her some funtime on Aurangs "magic stick".

I have said this before but if the Outside is actually timeless (in the deterministic sense) and all of subjective reality exists as an instant (as per the WLW's perspective) then when you look into the IF you see your collective experience on Earwa at the moment your soul passes to the Outside. So in this instance the poisoning of NC may have damned her in the future, so when she looks at the IF in the past she sees her damnation as already existent. Timelessness of the Outside and all that.

Sort of similar how a Black hole cannot collapse under its own reference frame.

Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: H on March 16, 2015, 01:38:48 pm
Well, perhaps, but I think there is something more pragmatic at hand.

She was constantly referred to as his "first wife" and we already know full well how much he risks to save his concubine.  I have doubts she was probably too pleased by that...
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: MG on March 16, 2015, 07:44:59 pm
Do we know for sure if any of the characters in WLW know about the Inverse Fire? Is it possible that they could just blunder into it?
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: The Sharmat on March 18, 2015, 10:54:11 am
It would probably come up during interrogation of Skin-Spies, but the Skin-Spies themselves don't seem to actually know what it is so Kellhus would have little more than a name and a vague context.
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: Wilshire on March 18, 2015, 06:34:30 pm
Do we know for sure if any of the characters in WLW know about the Inverse Fire? Is it possible that they could just blunder into it?
I dont think anyone we know of is completely aware of its existence. They could accidentally look into it :P. Maybe the Consult has put the IF out in a field somewhere and hope that Kellhus and the ordeal turn it on and then all join their side... like Madara's Infinite Tsukuyomi :P
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: MG on March 19, 2015, 01:41:40 am
Do we know for sure if any of the characters in WLW know about the Inverse Fire? Is it possible that they could just blunder into it?
I dont think anyone we know of is completely aware of its existence. They could accidentally look into it :P. Maybe the Consult has put the IF out in a field somewhere and hope that Kellhus and the ordeal turn it on and then all join their side... like Madara's Infinite Tsukuyomi :P

THAT WAS FUN TO GOOGLE

http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Infinite_Tsukuyomi
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: Royce on January 12, 2017, 08:22:11 pm
I am reading through TSA again, and I did not read this the first time. I somehow missed it.

Is there any way to get this on pdf so I can transfer it to my kindle?
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: Wilshire on January 12, 2017, 09:04:44 pm
This link: http://rsbakker.wordpress.com/stories/the-false-sun/

Down at the bottom of the text, above the comments, there is a "Share this:" section.

Click More.

Click print.

Select PDF.

Royce, I can't believe you missed this story :)
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: Royce on January 12, 2017, 09:47:28 pm
This link: http://rsbakker.wordpress.com/stories/the-false-sun/

Down at the bottom of the text, above the comments, there is a "Share this:" section.

Click More.

Click print.

Select PDF.

Royce, I can't believe you missed this story :)


Thanks Wilshire. Yeah, I am not sure how that happened either:).  When is it recommended to read this story?  I have not read TSA in almost 3 years so I remember very little of it.
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: Wilshire on January 13, 2017, 12:03:27 am
It was marked as potential TGO spoilers. I'd say its not at all a spoiler. It does provide some nice background for some of the new characters in TGO.
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: Francis Buck on April 03, 2017, 04:06:31 am
This link: http://rsbakker.wordpress.com/stories/the-false-sun/

Down at the bottom of the text, above the comments, there is a "Share this:" section.

Click More.

Click print.

Select PDF.

Royce, I can't believe you missed this story :)


Thanks Wilshire. Yeah, I am not sure how that happened either:).  When is it recommended to read this story?  I have not read TSA in almost 3 years so I remember very little of it.

Honestly I think the story itself can be read pretty much at any point after the first trilogy. I actually think it would have made for a crazy-as-fuck epilogue to The Judging Eye or something, but it is rather long and relatively self-contained (sorta).

It still feels like 100% essential reading to me, way more than the other shorts, though I suppose that feeling could change after TUC.
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: Anwurat on April 11, 2017, 06:57:37 am
Thanks Wilshire. Yeah, I am not sure how that happened either:).  When is it recommended to read this story?  I have not read TSA in almost 3 years so I remember very little of it.

Bakker said this about it,

Quote
But the very reason I enjoyed writing “The False Sun” so much is also the reason I need to issue a SEVERE SPOILER ALERT. The Second Apocalypse is big, so big that the narrative and thematic dimensions only come into collective focus here and there. ”The False Sun” is a story about the origins of the Consult, and so brings together the historical and metaphysical dimensions of the greater saga in a decisive way. Nothing is spoiled in terms of plot, but in terms of setting, this story cuts against the way the details of the World have been rationed over the course of the series. Drawing the curtain back on Golgotterath is something I’ve reserved for The Unholy Consult.

Thus the spoiler alert: Reading “The False Sun” will have a profound impact on your reading of The Unholy Consult, and if you are as jealous of your narrative surprises as I am, you might want to set this story on the back-burner.

This was before TUC was split into two books I think.
Title: Re: The False Sun
Post by: Wilshire on April 11, 2017, 01:41:42 pm
Welcome to the forum, Auwurat :) . (or at least, your first post )

Yeah, I've seen that before and I must say that I don't really get it. Bakker has a somewhat different view on what a spoiler is, and he also waffles quite a bit. He will reveal, in an offhand remark to someone, what I think are major spoilers but he doesn't think twice about. And then you've got this, a major warning  about plot structure spoilers that so far haven't really panned out at all.

Not that I don't understand. He has been jealously guarding his story, parceling it out exactly as he wanted.

Still though, I think for the average readers, TFS would not constitute a spoiler in any traditional sense of the word.