The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => The Prince of Nothing => The Warrior-Prophet => Topic started by: What Came Before on April 19, 2013, 02:41:42 pm

Title: Kellhus and the No-God
Post by: What Came Before on April 19, 2013, 02:41:42 pm
Quote from: Bhaal
Dreams followed. Dark tunnels, weary earth.
A ridge, curved like a sleeping woman’s hip, against the night sky.
And upon it two silhouettes, black against clouds of stars, impossibly bright.
The figure of a man seated, shoulders crouched like an ape, legs crossed like a priest.
And a tree with branches that swept up and out, forking across the bowl of the night.
And about the Nail of Heaven, the stars revolved, like clouds hurried across winter skies.
And Kellhus stared at the figure, stared at the tree, but he could not move. The firmament cycled, as though night after night passed without day.
Framed by the wheeling heavens, the figure spoke, a million throats in his throat, a million mouths in his mouth …
WHAT DO YOU SEE?
The silhouette stood, hands clasped like a monk, legs bent like a beast.
TELL ME …
Whole worlds wailed in terror.

This is an excerpt from when Kellhus is bound to the Circumfix. I remember how intriguing it was for me when he started learning the Gnosis. I don't remember us getting a glimpse of how Kellhus acts (since reacts is not a word he's very much capable of) and assess Seswatha's dreams.
The tree here and the Nail of Haven - is that the tree under which he finds Moenghus (can't remember)? Is that the idea of Moenghus mixed with the No-God, or is it simply... the No-God (crazy I know). Also, the interesting part obviously is reserved for the new trilogy which I haven't read. Who's voice is he hearing? Is he communicating with the God or the No-God or both?
This Vision is perplexing.
Title: Re: Kellhus and the No-God
Post by: What Came Before on April 19, 2013, 02:41:57 pm
Quote from: Madness
Oh, Bhaal. Firstly, I recommend you read the Aspect-Emperor books, so far - if you wait till the next book's release to read them all at once, your head may explode from the awesome ;).

The one thing I can offer is that I don't think Kellhus dreams the Dreams - The Grasping is a ritual that involves Seswatha's Heart and complicated Cants. It is the reason the Mandate dream the Dreams.
Title: Re: Kellhus and the No-God
Post by: What Came Before on April 19, 2013, 02:42:05 pm
Quote from: Bhaal
Oh yeah, true that about the Grasping. So have I partially correctly suspected that the answers are to be found in the Aspect-Emperor books? Or at least hints...
Title: Re: Kellhus and the No-God
Post by: What Came Before on April 19, 2013, 02:42:13 pm
Quote from: Duskweaver
Quote from: Bhaal
The figure of a man seated, shoulders crouched like an ape, legs crossed like a priest.
...
The silhouette stood, hands clasped like a monk, legs bent like a beast.
Like a fallen angel meeting a rising ape (http://noophy.blogspot.co.uk/2010/12/its-almost-hogswatch.html).

I think Kellhus is realising that being a perfectly rationalist-materialist Dunyain is not enough.
Title: Re: Kellhus and the No-God
Post by: What Came Before on April 19, 2013, 02:42:20 pm
Quote from: Madness
Man, I love Pratchett's writing. Its a damn shame about his Alzheimer's.

Bhaal, you can't ask us such questions :P. All & none of your queries are answered in the Aspect-Emperor - in that order ;).

Btw, Duskweaver, I like the sig.
Title: Re: Kellhus and the No-God
Post by: What Came Before on April 19, 2013, 02:42:30 pm
Quote from: Wilshire
That description is rather confusing to me.

"Dreams followed. Dark tunnels, weary earth."
So wondering around (inside i guess) golgoterath...

"A ridge, curved like a sleeping woman’s hip, against the night sky."
Now we're outside it, and the curved hip nonsense is just a hill right? Not exactly talking about the arc, but rather where its at

"And upon it two silhouettes" ...
The horns.

"...black against clouds of stars, impossibly bright."
Uh the horns are black and the "clouds of stars" are bright. That confused me for a while


"The figure of a man seated, shoulders crouched like an ape, legs crossed like a priest."
So there is some fella sitting near/above/between/in front of the big ship?


"And a tree with branches that swept up and out, forking across the bowl of the night."
Since when where there trees. I thought there where no trees there.

"And about the Nail of Heaven, the stars revolved, like clouds hurried across winter skies."
Shit ton of stars spinning around the Nail. Got that much already.

"Framed by the wheeling heavens, the figure spoke, a million throats in his throat, a million mouths in his mouth …"
Clear No-God reference.

"WHAT DO YOU SEE?"
blah

"The silhouette stood, hands clasped like a monk, legs bent like a beast."
So this time the silhouette is not Golgotterath but the fella that was sitting like a monkey-priest. Now his arms are priestly (was going to say monkly but that would be confusing) and his legs are the beast [reminds me of sranc a bit]. I guess I can appreciate that inversion but its confusing.

"TELL ME …"
blah blah

"Whole worlds wailed in terror."
Worlds plural. Interesting. [Back, and to the left, there must have been a second spitter.]




Anyone care to tell me if that was about right?
Title: Re: Kellhus and the No-God
Post by: What Came Before on April 19, 2013, 02:42:36 pm
Quote from: Madness
+1. You might have also highlighted the fact that Kellhus' fixed perspective is mentioned.
Title: Re: Kellhus and the No-God
Post by: What Came Before on April 19, 2013, 02:42:42 pm
Quote from: Wilshire
Quote from: Madness
+1. You might have also highlighted the fact that Kellhus' fixed perspective is mentioned.
:?:
Title: Re: Kellhus and the No-God
Post by: What Came Before on April 19, 2013, 02:42:48 pm
Quote from: Madness
"And Kellhus stared at the figure, stared at the tree, but he could not move."

You broke everything else down so nicely, excepting: seems to me that Kellhus can be neither tree nor monk-like figure.
Title: Re: Kellhus and the No-God
Post by: What Came Before on April 19, 2013, 02:42:56 pm
Quote from: Wilshire
indeed I did.

"And Kellhus stared at the figure, stared at the tree, but he could not move. The firmament cycled, as though night after night passed without day."

Figure.. same guy as before.
Whats with the tree. Oh maybe its back to reality with the tree nonsense. He is seeing the tree that he is hanging from... that could make sense.
Night after night.... could be his repeated waking up at night IRL and always dreaming of the night whilst asleep. So he is spinning around the tree watching the night stars spin around him, and in his dreams the sky continues to turn although (dreaming) he is not moving.
Title: Re: Kellhus and the No-God
Post by: What Came Before on April 19, 2013, 02:43:06 pm
Quote from: Madness
I like the idea of his experience's being shaped by the perspective of his physical vantage.
Title: Re: Kellhus and the No-God
Post by: What Came Before on April 19, 2013, 02:43:15 pm
Quote from: Curethan
Quote from: Wilshire
Whats with the tree.

I figured its thematic reference.  Touchs off associations with Yydrigsal and the branching of fate - referencing back to warring for space in his dunyain blade training. 
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Title: Re: Kellhus and the No-God
Post by: What Came Before on April 19, 2013, 02:43:23 pm
Quote from: Wilshire
Oh ok, I'll write it off as one of those literary things.
 
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Title: Re: Kellhus and the No-God
Post by: What Came Before on April 19, 2013, 02:43:30 pm
Quote from: Madness
Ooh, don't write it off, homie. +1 for Literary Thing & Thematic Reference. Isolating the narrative's canon connotations is crucial with this one.

We have the twig at the beginning in TDTCB, Prologue. We have plenty of metaphors likening Tusks and Trees  - all of them dead, methinks. They all connect directly to Kellhus and indirectly to a number of other Pronouns.

Sorry, Wilshire, I edited in the spoiler tag. I realize Bhaal'd mentioned finishing the series but I've been slacking and falling into bad habits. We, at least, have to try and maintain spoilers relevant to chronological subforums.
Title: Re: Kellhus and the No-God
Post by: What Came Before on April 19, 2013, 02:43:40 pm
Quote from: Curethan
D'oh.  Sorry!
Title: Re: Kellhus and the No-God
Post by: What Came Before on April 19, 2013, 02:43:48 pm
Quote from: Madness
No worries, Curethan. I noticed yours after the fact, as well.
Title: Re: Kellhus and the No-God
Post by: What Came Before on April 19, 2013, 02:43:56 pm
Quote from: Wilshire
Crap, this is in WP not TTT. And to think I thought I was being careful.
Title: Re: Kellhus and the No-God
Post by: What Came Before on April 19, 2013, 02:44:11 pm
Quote from: Madness
Lol, cheers.
Title: Re: Kellhus and the No-God
Post by: sciborg2 on August 24, 2013, 03:33:31 pm
Looking at the dream, I'm reminded of the comic Slo Wave where the artist illustrated people's dreams and Basso's dream journals.

It's a jumble of various things, possible futures mixed in with symbols form the past.

So the figure at the base of the tree could merely be symbolic of the No-God rather than any kind of revelation about Its nature.

I didn't think of the silhouettes as the horns of the Ark, I figured they were actual people but I think you're more likely to be right.

The underground tunnels I thought were the Nonmen tunnels, not those of the Ark, but the ones in the dream probably represent both.

What's interesting is the part how multiples worlds are apparently terrified of the No-God. Was this something the Inchies tried on other worlds but failed? Because it seems from the Bakker writing we have so far that Shae helped conceive the No-God?
Title: Re: Kellhus and the No-God
Post by: Wilshire on August 25, 2013, 08:17:35 pm
What's interesting is the part how multiples worlds are apparently terrified of the No-God. Was this something the Inchies tried on other worlds but failed? Because it seems from the Bakker writing we have so far that Shae helped conceive the No-God?

It could be that Earwa is special in that the No-God must be manufactured there, but all of sentience feels its presence...

How would a world full of sentient beings interpret a feeling of presence looming over them in the sky? All the Earwans could feel where over the horizon the No-God was, which amounts to North/South/East/West, so what would others sense? To a group of people, even spread out all over a planet, it would seem like there was something always in the same place.

Seems to me like the presence of a God somewhere out in the sky. All those alive at the time would have this new feeling of being watch from the sky, but all those born after its existence would not notice it. Then after there would be a few generations of those that would notice its absence rather than its appearance, and after that there would only be stories.
Title: Re: Kellhus and the No-God
Post by: Madness on August 28, 2013, 02:07:58 pm
What's interesting is the part how multiples worlds are apparently terrified of the No-God. Was this something the Inchies tried on other worlds but failed? Because it seems from the Bakker writing we have so far that Shae helped conceive the No-God?

It could be that Earwa is special in that the No-God must be manufactured there, but all of sentience feels its presence...

I think sci's taking license with the ambiguity. We assume, I think, that the descriptive 'multiple worlds' from Kellhus' perspective means:

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I'm just not sure this is a given. Also, we can't support the distinctions of the No-God's influence any more than that of Damnation or the Outside.

EDIT: Be careful of spoilers. There are threads concerning the manner of spoilers on any forum concerning future revelatory information. And a certain number of posters are turned off when it comes to flagrant spoiling.
Title: Re: Kellhus and the No-God
Post by: Francis Buck on August 29, 2013, 10:46:27 pm
Just throwing this out there, but I think the reason people can feel the No-God is because it tugs at their souls. The No-God "collects" souls (thus no babies born), and even within the shell of a body, people can feel that magnetism.
Title: Re: Kellhus and the No-God
Post by: EkyannusIII on October 16, 2013, 06:08:00 pm
I want to know what the peoples of Eanna think about the Womb Plague.  It happened to them too. What do they remember, and how do they explain it?
Title: Re: Kellhus and the No-God
Post by: Madness on October 16, 2013, 07:16:14 pm
I'm not sure that speculation is consistent?

The Womb Plague happened long before the Breaking of the Gates.
Title: Re: Kellhus and the No-God
Post by: Wilshire on October 16, 2013, 10:00:47 pm
EkyannusIII might have meant the still born birth thing when the no-god walked. Womb plague would seem to semantically make sense.
Title: Re: Kellhus and the No-God
Post by: Madness on October 17, 2013, 02:13:36 am
Hm... the Years of the Crib.

I'm still of the opinion that the Xiuhanni are a culture completely dominated by Inchoroi worship. In that case, they might take it as a sign that their Gods walk the mortal realm again?
Title: Re: Kellhus and the No-God
Post by: Francis Buck on October 21, 2013, 12:59:43 am
Hm... the Years of the Crib.

I'm still of the opinion that the Xiuhanni are a culture completely dominated by Inchoroi worship. In that case, they might take it as a sign that their Gods walk the mortal realm again?

That's interesting. Where did you get that idea from?
Title: Re: Kellhus and the No-God
Post by: Madness on October 21, 2013, 11:35:58 am
These posts might have to be moved. I can see us quickly straying into spoilers.

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Title: Re: Kellhus and the No-God
Post by: EkyannusIII on November 05, 2013, 03:35:46 am
EkyannusIII might have meant the still born birth thing when the no-god walked. Womb plague would seem to semantically.

Yes, that was what I meant, thanks.  :)
Title: Re: Kellhus and the No-God
Post by: Madness on November 05, 2013, 02:08:01 pm
No pet theories, EkyannusIII?

All feel the No-God's tug from the horizon. All are stillborn. The Xiuhanni must have reacted.
Title: Re: Kellhus and the No-God
Post by: Wilshire on November 06, 2013, 01:28:23 am
lol i like how i trailed off and didn't end the sentence.
Title: Re: Kellhus and the No-God
Post by: Madness on November 06, 2013, 06:13:58 pm
You still made sense.
Title: Re: Kellhus and the No-God
Post by: EkyannusIII on November 16, 2013, 04:33:08 pm
No pet theories, EkyannusIII?

All feel the No-God's tug from the horizon. All are stillborn. The Xiuhanni must have reacted.

Indeed, but I have no basis for thinking anything about their reaction beyond the obvious inference that it was probably a vastly destabilizing event for their societies.

I do, however, want to bring this up:

These posts might have to be moved. I can see us quickly straying into spoilers.

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I think that
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Title: Re: Kellhus and the No-God
Post by: Madness on November 16, 2013, 06:02:35 pm
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Title: Re: Kellhus and the No-God
Post by: Cüréthañ on November 17, 2013, 01:47:11 am
I would like to know more about when and how the Scylvendi went to the consult.
Title: Re: Kellhus and the No-God
Post by: Madness on November 17, 2013, 02:09:30 pm
+1.
Title: Re: Kellhus and the No-God
Post by: EkyannusIII on November 24, 2013, 12:56:44 am
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It would seem so.  Only a year to wait...
Title: Re: Kellhus and the No-God
Post by: EkyannusIII on November 24, 2013, 01:05:01 am
I would like to know more about when and how the Scylvendi went to the consult.

I have a theory, perhaps not a crackpot one:

When Cnaiur is reminiscing about his childhood with Skiotha he has a flashback to a scene where his father shows him the stars in the night sky and says that they are really holes in the tent that is thrown over the earth, and that this is how they know the world is a lie.  I thought that was important for several reasons:

1.) It's classically Gnostic, if you pardon the use of nomadic tribal imagery in the metaphor Skiotha applies to the world; that the world was in some sense a fraud was central to Gnostic ideology.

2.) It suggests why the Scylvendi are so violent and uncaring of death in battle: they regard this life as a dream or delusion of some sort, and so do not see it's end as a measureless tragedy, just a transition, and probably one that is good in and of itself.

(The scene is also important because it is the only time we hear Skiotha speak, and because he is clearly showing affection to his son, which is hardly what you would expect given the rest of the Scylvendi ways we see, to say nothing of Cnaiur's persona).

If that is correct, then the Scylvendi might see a "no-god" that is capable of permanently stopping the cycle of rebirth and ending the earthly life of Men as a power of salvation, because this would mean that the entire human race was no longer trapped in the world of lies.

Too bad the No-God is probably eating their souls.
Title: Re: Kellhus and the No-God
Post by: Madness on November 24, 2013, 03:29:58 pm
I'd still like perspective on how the Scylvendi specifically went from honouring Kiunnat traditions to worshipping a living Lokung (No-God - am I the only one curious as to what Lokung translates into Sheyic as, our Earwa English variant?).

To bullet-point for my own sake. Essentially, we have:

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Lol - ranty...
Title: Re: Kellhus and the No-God
Post by: locke on November 25, 2013, 08:17:41 am
I'd still like perspective on how the Scylvendi specifically went from honouring Kiunnat traditions to worshipping a living Lokung (No-God - am I the only one curious as to what Lokung translates into Sheyic as, our Earwa English variant?).

To bullet-point for my own sake. Essentially, we have:

(click to show/hide)

Lol - ranty...
Atraithau is anarcane ground.  that means the god was there at some point.  the scylvendi have long lived in the area. So I'd say Atraithau is anarcane ground because that's where the god of the scylvendi manifested and gave them their new directive.

Also, note where Skiotha says that the world is a lie that this is a mechanism Kellhus and Moenghus use on Cnaiur, and possibly why Cnaiur was able to untangle the conditioning from Moenghus, the culture of 'doubt' of disbelief in the world is very useful to the Dunyain (and very similar to what they also believe) and would also benefit Cnaiur in giving him avenues of thought that would let him 'doubt' the new world that Moenghus sketched out for him.  He doesn't get caught in the web of deceit because scylvendie are inherently taught to suspect all webs.
Title: Re: Kellhus and the No-God
Post by: Madness on November 25, 2013, 11:52:47 am
Atraithau is anarcane ground.  that means the god was there at some point.  the scylvendi have long lived in the area. So I'd say Atraithau is anarcane ground because that's where the god of the scylvendi manifested and gave them their new directive.

That doesn't equate to the "God was there at some point," unless you have evidence.

(click to show/hide)

Also, note where Skiotha says that the world is a lie that this is a mechanism Kellhus and Moenghus use on Cnaiur, and possibly why Cnaiur was able to untangle the conditioning from Moenghus, the culture of 'doubt' of disbelief in the world is very useful to the Dunyain (and very similar to what they also believe) and would also benefit Cnaiur in giving him avenues of thought that would let him 'doubt' the new world that Moenghus sketched out for him.  He doesn't get caught in the web of deceit because scylvendie are inherently taught to suspect all webs.

+1. Strange that something probably preached by the No-God (or Consult) would protect Cnaiur from the Dunyain... even if it did take him 30 years and a second Dunyain to cement his hypotheses.
Title: Re: Kellhus and the No-God
Post by: Wilshire on November 25, 2013, 05:48:42 pm
Atraithau is anarcane ground.  that means the god was there at some point.  the scylvendi have long lived in the area. So I'd say Atraithau is anarcane ground because that's where the god of the scylvendi manifested and gave them their new directive.

That doesn't equate to the "God was there at some point," unless you have evidence.

WLW spoiler:
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Title: Re: Kellhus and the No-God
Post by: Cüréthañ on November 26, 2013, 03:33:47 am
Where the no-god walked (or hovered): Mengedda.  Kind of the opposite of anarcane ground, i.e. a Topos.
Title: Re: Kellhus and the No-God
Post by: Madness on November 26, 2013, 01:54:15 pm
WLW spoiler:
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Title: Re: Kellhus and the No-God
Post by: Wilshire on November 26, 2013, 02:40:09 pm
Where the no-god walked (or hovered): Mengedda.  Kind of the opposite of anarcane ground, i.e. a Topos.
Was it a topos before the NG was slain?
Title: Re: Kellhus and the No-God
Post by: Madness on November 26, 2013, 02:56:37 pm
No-God is the reason for the Topoi at Mengedda, allegedly.
Title: Re: Kellhus and the No-God
Post by: Wilshire on November 26, 2013, 07:31:31 pm
Btw in response to your  :o post, maybe you missed us bring this up in the sorcery topic  ;), check it out.
Title: Re: Kellhus and the No-God
Post by: Madness on November 27, 2013, 10:24:27 am
I might do. The only thing Cishaurim specific that I remember out of that jumble is that they don't seem to have an utteral component. But I will do some rereading at some point - I shouldn't even be on here now. I gots assignments to finish.
Title: Re: Kellhus and the No-God
Post by: MG on February 25, 2014, 05:47:14 pm
Where the no-god walked (or hovered): Mengedda.  Kind of the opposite of anarcane ground, i.e. a Topos.
Was it a topos before the NG was slain?

DOUBLE TOPOS

I note that not all of the battle of Mengedda are catalogued in the appendix
Title: Re: Kellhus and the No-God
Post by: Wilshire on February 25, 2014, 08:55:34 pm
Yeah. Doesn't it do something like battle 1, 2, 3, and 5...
Title: Re: Kellhus and the No-God
Post by: Madness on March 06, 2014, 03:56:12 am
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Title: Re: Kellhus and the No-God
Post by: MG on March 09, 2014, 02:20:46 am
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YOU ARE THE ABSENCE OF WIND BENEATH MY WINGS--goddamnit, why didnt i see that
Title: Re: Kellhus and the No-God
Post by: Madness on March 09, 2014, 12:40:09 pm
Lol, did you check? They are all listed in TTT Glossary :).
Title: Re: Kellhus and the No-God
Post by: MG on April 29, 2014, 10:02:38 pm
Don't know what it means, but Kellhus is totally losing his shit just before the No-God dream and then after that both Cnaiur and Akka hear him speaking lucidly as he does again after they cut him down.  Maybe just a coincidence, but the Mog dream could have functioned as some kind of recharge for Kellhus.
Title: Re: Kellhus and the No-God
Post by: The Sharmat on September 03, 2014, 04:28:58 am
I'm not sure he ever became entirely lucid again. I'm pretty sure his halos are a delusion.
Title: Re: Kellhus and the No-God
Post by: SilentRoamer on September 03, 2014, 08:01:16 pm
I think his haloes may have started as an illusion but belief begets reality in Earwa. Serwe truly believed then Kellhus did. Saw his own haloes before ripping out his heart.
Title: Re: Kellhus and the No-God
Post by: The Sharmat on September 03, 2014, 09:10:35 pm
I think his haloes may have started as an illusion but belief begets reality in Earwa. Serwe truly believed then Kellhus did. Saw his own haloes before ripping out his heart.
I see this idea a lot but I'm not fully convinced yet. I think belief begetting reality is more a quality of topoi than every day Earwa.
Title: Re: Kellhus and the No-God
Post by: Wilshire on September 09, 2014, 01:11:02 am
Its kind of the linchpin of earwa metaphysics. It happens more easily in topoi for sure, but the Outsider operates on this principle, and I think there is enough in the books to hint at it, but not much more than hints.
Title: Re: Kellhus and the No-God
Post by: Cüréthañ on September 09, 2014, 01:22:08 am
Serwe also sees the halos on the skin spy impersonating Kellhus.

It is my belief that they are not an illusion, but are in fact the effect of Kellhus being anointed by supernatural forces. (Take your pick - TTT, No-god, Solitary God, the 'World Soul' or just the insanity of religion in general leaking through).
She doesn't just see them first, Serwe is the mechanism by which they were placed onto Kellhus.
Title: Re: Kellhus and the No-God
Post by: locke on September 09, 2014, 03:33:20 am
Serwe also sees the halos on the skin spy impersonating Kellhus.

It is my belief that they are not an illusion, but are in fact the effect of Kellhus being anointed by supernatural forces. (Take your pick - TTT, No-god, Solitary God, the 'World Soul' or just the insanity of religion in general leaking through).
She doesn't just see them first, Serwe is the mechanism by which they were placed onto Kellhus.
Yes

All typ0s courtesy of Samsung.

Title: Re: Kellhus and the No-God
Post by: The Sharmat on September 09, 2014, 02:20:51 pm
I'm still not convinced. I think they're an artifact of raw faith. You believe in someone hard enough, you'll see halos.
Title: Re: Kellhus and the No-God
Post by: Cüréthañ on September 10, 2014, 12:41:26 am
I'm still not convinced. I think they're an artifact of raw faith. You believe in someone hard enough, you'll see halos.
Same thing, to me. .
Thing is, several characters see the same thing without any collusion.  Imagine if all schizophrenics heard the same 'voices' and saw the same visual hallucinations.
Scientifically, we would be forced to consider that there was probably something consistent and external underlying the condition.
The 'halo-cinations' come from the outside.  Madness is a specific kind of belief, and insanity is described as the outside leaking into Earwa via the soul.
Title: Re: Kellhus and the No-God
Post by: MG on September 24, 2014, 06:34:57 pm
I'm still not convinced. I think they're an artifact of raw faith. You believe in someone hard enough, you'll see halos.
Same thing, to me. .
Thing is, several characters see the same thing without any collusion.  Imagine if all schizophrenics heard the same 'voices' and saw the same visual hallucinations.
Scientifically, we would be forced to consider that there was probably something consistent and external underlying the condition.
The 'halo-cinations' come from the outside.  Madness is a specific kind of belief, and insanity is described as the outside leaking into Earwa via the soul.

lovely!  kellhus' 'madness' is ajokli bleeding into the world!
Title: Re: Kellhus and the No-God
Post by: MG on September 24, 2014, 06:49:18 pm
i think it's fun to imagine what would have happened at caraskand without the circumfix

either the zaudunyani miss sarcellus (so he doesn't run to conphas) or they straight up kill him, then martimus kills conphas and kellhus steps into the vacuum

he could always flee and plan to become a fanim prophet, but if he stays, he's facing a nearly impossible schedule of learning gnostic or anagogic sorcery so motivated the troops out of the gate is one big problem and getting them to win is another

maybe if he devoted himself to no other tasks, he could learn the simpler anagogis fast enough to warp out and assassinate the padirajah or do like his dad and warp the scarlet spires here and there, destroying shit and disappearing? 

maybe the cishaurim are the deciding factor whatever--they make sure that whatever kellhus does sees him dominating more people of the 3 seas???

maybe kellhus incites the zaudunyani to fight the orthodox as part of a pact with the padirajah?  or he simply has the holy war accept the padirajah's peace offering and he settles down somewhere in kian content to dominate the 3 seas more slowly?
Title: Re: Kellhus and the No-God
Post by: The Sharmat on February 02, 2015, 07:53:06 am
Same thing, to me. .
Thing is, several characters see the same thing without any collusion.  Imagine if all schizophrenics heard the same 'voices' and saw the same visual hallucinations.
Scientifically, we would be forced to consider that there was probably something consistent and external underlying the condition.
The 'halo-cinations' come from the outside.  Madness is a specific kind of belief, and insanity is described as the outside leaking into Earwa via the soul.
Or something consistent and internal. Some paranoid delusions are far more common than others. My mother works at a mental hospital. A common phenomenon among their patients is "the Terminator thing". The idea that a revolt by intelligent machines is immanent.

Maybe the halos are consistent between crazy people because they're a consistent thing in Three Seas culture. (I say just for the sake of argument, I'm not totally convinced of that myself)
Title: Re: Kellhus and the No-God
Post by: Wilshire on February 24, 2015, 05:53:23 pm
There are certainly a lot of cases of people experiencing similar hallucinations.  Government spying on you constantly and robots replacing people are somewhat common-ish delusions.

Like you said TS, its possible that halos are a common cultural thing and that crazies would happen to see the same thing, but it seems really unlikely, especially because we don't really see any mentally ill people in PoN (at least, not of the kind we are talking about).
Title: Re: Kellhus and the No-God
Post by: The Sharmat on February 24, 2015, 09:16:18 pm
Everyone is a little bit crazy, though. Sanity being kind of arbitrary in a world where no one is truly objective can be argued to be a theme of the first trilogy.
Title: Re: Kellhus and the No-God
Post by: Wilshire on February 25, 2015, 02:56:34 am
Not at all. If anything, the halo's point to an objectivity existing more profoundly in Earwa than irl.
Title: Re: Kellhus and the No-God
Post by: The Sharmat on February 25, 2015, 03:50:22 am
But they don't, necessarily, as has been discussed up thread.

I guess it depends on what you mean by "objective".
Title: Re: Kellhus and the No-God
Post by: Francis Buck on April 30, 2017, 05:14:12 am
I guess it depends on what you mean by "objective".

I think the matter of objectivity and subjectivity, in particular the individual definitions/meanings of such things, are a theme that's pretty core to TSA and I suspect there will be some kind of reckoning regarding the nature of these concepts actually function in Earwa, come TUC.

As a result I'm of two minds about the halo's "being real". I do think there's an element of mass hysteria/delusion involved (somewhat only because I think that applies to basically everything in the series), but I think it may also be a commentary on that sort of thing, since we've been shown (repeatedly) what we as people from the Real World assume to be religious-mumbo-jumbo ends up being REAL in Earwa. Places are actually haunted. Gods actually exist, and frequently intervene with mundane life.

Earwa is intrinsically a meaningful place. There, “madness” or “being crazy” straight up do not have the same cost-benefit ratio that they do IRL, at least not for now. A schizophrenic in our world makes connections that don't actually exist because our universe lacks any intrinsic meaning at all (in theory). In Earwa, everything has meaning, everything is bundled up with meaningfulness – lunacy, in some capacity at least, allows one to see things “more clearly” I think, but perhaps only on a higher level, and at the expense of clarity for the “mundane”, everyday world.

Also, two things stand out from TGO for me:
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